THE IMPERIAL CONFERENCE.

Press, Volume LIX, Issue 17808, 6 July 1923, Page 9

THE IMPERIAL CONFERENCE.

STATEMENT BY MR MASSEY.

DISCUSSION IN THE HOUSE. 'sr-scuL to "wnc raasi.") ] WELLINGTON, July ■>. •The debate in connexion with the proposed representation of New ilea- ! land at the forthcoming Imperial Conference in London was commenced in the House of Representatives this evening by a lengthy speech by the Primo Minister. At the outset Mr Massey said he wished to remove some misconceptions. The proceedings at the Imperial Conference were of the simplest and moat informal ciiaracter. Many people seemed to think that the Conferences met in some great gallery, with a huge admiring audience. Nothing of the sort. They met in a email room, no bigger than the dining-room of Bellamy's, and tho Prime Minist9r of England took his seat at a small table, and not even at the head, but in tho middle of it. The gathering was quite a small ono, consisting of the representatives of the United Kingdom and of the Dominions—Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa, Newfoundland, and- on this occasion one or two special representatives would bo present. Ho had reason to beliove that tho Government of Southern Ireland was invited to be present, and Malta, he know, was looking forward to being represented as a Dominion. Thoro was no such thing as speech-making in the ordinary sense of the word, but merely level, quiet, unofficial talk. There wore no recriminations, such as occurred in the Parliaments of the countries represented. They were there as tho representatives of the self-governing portions of tho Empire, each of whom was entitled to make its own laws and levy its own taxation, and to do all it could for the welfare of the country concerned. Outside of that they had the opportunity of making any suggestions for the well-being of the Empire as a wholo. Any decision of tho Conference must be validated by the country concerned bofore it could come into effect. In the intervals between the Conferences the' Prime Ministers of the self-governing States were kept fully informed as to what was happening in connexion' with foreign politics, but those communications were generally of a confidential nature.

The Economic Conference The economic part of the Conferonco would probably be the first to be dealt with. During recent years there iiad been a greater "tendency on the part of the Empire to come togethor to make arrangements for their mutual benefit, such as in the mattor of Customs affairs. The Empire was capable of producing everything necessary for its own support. There vraa nothing we required that could not be produced in the Empire itself. He had often thought it was mere folly to tfopond on other countries, when that was tho case of closing the door to our own products from within the Empire—a folly that had been sadly brought . home in the war. lu regard to preference jhe to bring about a community of Empire, than outside it. He would like to see tho Conference known as a "Council of Empire." He believed that in a few years the position would resolve itself into a Council to do everything possible to bring about a community of Empire, and to 60 develop it that few portions of it would be unoccupied. Inter-Imperial Communications. Tho last Conference had devoted a good deal of attention to this eubiect, and no doubt it would come up again. He thought New Zealand had very little to complain of in regard to the class of ships that came here, though everyone, of course, was anxious to see freights reduced as low as possible. Still, our shipping facilities on the whole wore good. What was really required was to lessen the timo taken between the Motherland and Australia and New Zealand. Even 35 or 36 days was too long for tho voyage. There was not a liner that at present crossed the Atlantic that could not do the trip in 30 days, and could do it easily. There was also the question of more frequent services to be considered, and eventually they should endeavour to establish fortnightly services. He was, however; not proposing to make any recommendation that would involve the expenditure of more money in this connexion at present.

Cable Services. In regard to cable services, he bought that for a considerable ticua y«t we should have to rely on cable '"vices instead' of wireless, thougti eventually the latter might be establislied for quick communication between the different parts of the Em-Jh-e, There was no doubt that a tremendous development \va3 possible in "gard to the latter, but at present we Were not in a position to conimunicato *ith all the other parts of the Empire ty means of wireless. A great deal *ould have to be done before that was S«Baible. Soon we should have to tlose whether we should have our wirckas communication by way of Canada ta ii across the American Continent, or b 7 way of Australia. Only exports Wild decide that. It must, however, fe recognised that wo could not lag bel >ind other countries, and New Zea- ■ would havo to do the right thing.

Air Services. Massey expressed doubt as to Aether much could be expected in **maunication by means of airships, "'ere would havo to be a tremendous improvement in construction before *"»«1» was possible in that direction. *«tto would bo, and there already had " Ba i frreater development in connexion

with aeroplanes, and there wr.p no doubt that aeroplanes would be useful not only for war purposes, but for commercial purposes as well. One point was clear: that there dual he some speedier means of communication between the Dominions and the heart of the Empire, aud if that were brought about, then i: would be a

much easier matter to hold these Imperial Conferences. He looked forward to the time when such Conferences would be held in the different parts of the Empire, and not in London alone. There was no reason why the present Conference ghouhl not have been held in Vancouver. That would, have effected a tremendous saving of time. There was no reason, also, why rneetings should not be held in Australia and New Zealand. At present Imperial Ministers of the Crown were not sufficiently acquainted wih the overseas Dominions, and it would be a good thing if Conferences were held in each of them alternately.

Migration. Some time would also De spoi:' at the Economic Conference in discussing the question of migration. Members understood perfectly well the policy o* the present .New Zealand Government, and if he went to the Conference, ne would advocate migration on those lines, and he was strongly of opinion that wo should keep New Zealand a white land. ( : 'Hear, hear.") lie admitted that in this respect at the iast Conference the Indian representatives had been very good indeed in agreeing to the proposals submitted by the Dominions. They had agreed to the proposals that their countrymen should not land in New Zealand without tho consent of the New Zealand Government, unless they came for pleasure, business, or health, in which case they could remain for six months without any objection. That was practically the law of the land now.

Trade with Russia. He did not know whether tho Conference would discuss this question. The British Government . might say that that was their business, but as far as he -was concerned, he saw no objection to trade between Russia and Now Zealand. If people wanted to trade with Russia there should bo no difficulties put in tho way any more than there was in regard to their trading with Germany, -which they were now able to do- He did not think, 'however, that our trade with Germany would increase to any great extent, as the position in regard to it had been very much altered. Military Defence. As to the affairs to be considered at the Constitutional Conference, defence was one of the most important. "1 do not think," Air Alassey said, "there is any need for me to say anything about military defence, for i see no need for the maintenance of a standing army in this or any other Dominion. Provided a, proper staff of officers and non-com-missioned officers is kept up, I do not think there would be any difficulty in finding tho men should the necessity arise. If ever the time comes lam confident the men of the Empire will do what Shey did before—in 1914. (Hear, hear.) ' Uaval Defence. "Now I come to naval defence, and that is the direction in which 1 consider pur efforts must go for the time being. Great Britain would never have attained her present position without, the Navy. \ve have got a duty, and I hold it is the first and most important duty to maintain the connexion between the ditterent parts of tho Empire. jOnce we allowed, that connexion to be cut, it would bo a serious thing for the Empire. That was a cause of trouble in the war, when, owing to enemy submarines, communication between different parts of the Empire was seriously interfered with. Now, I need hardly say tho Empire is all out for peace. No ono wants war. (Labour members: "Hear, hear.".) But the best guarantee for peace is tho British Navy. (Government members. "Hear, hear.") We know some na tions go to war for purposes of aggrandisement, and that sort of thing. The British Empire may be compelled to go to war in defence of its territories or citizens, or in fulfilment of tho conditions of its treaties, but never for other reasons. (Hear, near.) If the Empire went to pieces—l do not think it ever will be broken up—but if it should be, that would be the greatest calamity that could be suffered by humanity. (Hear, hear.) Our duty is to keep the Empire together, and in a proper state of defence. We do not want to go to war, but' I think our Navy must be able to hold its own with any Navy in the world. We used to keep to a two-Power standard, but now we are content with a one-Power standard. A great change has taken place since | the Washington Conference. Now we expected a great deal from that Conference, and I do not want to say that nothing has come from it. The Conference undoubtedly strengthened the relationship between the two sections of the Anglo-Saxon race." However, one country had refused to sign tho agreement arrived at at the Conference, but Great Britain, he was proud to say, had complied with the conditions to the very letter. (Hear, hear.) Tho ships it agreed to scrap under the disarmament plan had been scrapped. "There was, however, a peculiar condition arising from the Conference: That any country can build any number of a certain class of ship. It can build 10,000-ton ships, properly armoured and carrying Sin guns. Now, anyono knows that a ship of that character is a dangerous instrument of war very dangerous —and much more, dangerous than the ships of 40 or 50 years ago. Great Britain under the Washington Agreement can build also two of the most modern and up-to-date shipa, and I do not know what is being done about them, except that they are I going on. Then there, is no limit to the number of submarines and aircraft. I So it will be seen that there is room for trouble, even if the nations build nothing more than they are entitled to under the agreement."

Tae Singapore Base. "In regard to the proposed naval base at Singapore, I will not say that Singapore was not mentioned at any of the last Conferences. Singaporo is the most important gate of the Pacific, in my opinion, and if we are <roing to guard'against war in the Pacific, we must have naval bases. I had the opportunity of seeing the fortified naval base at Pearl Harbour, Honolulu, and although I am not an expert, I had the opinion of experts, and there has never been any difference of opinion but that the base_ at Pearl Harbour is impregnable. Now, if it is necessary for the United States to fortify a naval base at Honolulu, it is far "more important that we should have a naval base fortified at Singapore. America, of course, has the Philippines and Hawaii itself, but I know of nothing so urgent and important, so far as Australia and New Zealand are concerned, as a base at Singapore. We must not, so far as the Navy is concerned, allow ourselves to be surprised.

2Tew Zealand and Naval Defence. "I„may say I have got a document which is not really confidential, and I will take the opportunity of reading it to the House. It is a statement from th 9 Admiralty authorities, and indicates how best Now Zealand ni3y assist in Empiro naval dofonce, and states that the Prime Minister may wish to inform Parliament if it could support the line of policy indicated. The Admiralty emphasises the first principle of naval defence, namely, that it can only be assured by adequate naval forces, capable of offensive action, and

endowed with that full freedom of movement which can only be given inadequate fuelling and base facilities, and points out the consequent necessity of the Empire possessing a fleet capable of controlling maritime communications. Maritime communication must be protected. The Admiralty outlines the naval policv by which New Zealand can best assist in Empire naval defence as follows, giving the various points in order of relative importance :

(I) During the period of financial strings ncy, maintenance by Nvw Zealand of a liealfhy nucleus of a seagoing squadron which, when occasion requires, can be expanded, tho ' expansion to consist of light cruder.; and oceangoing submarines. They do not supgtst that we should pay for them, but that wo should be a headquarters. The Chatham is the present nucleus of such a squadron, but it is intended to replace her with an n • -to-date oil-burning light cruiser. _(2) The provision of oil reserves in -New Zealand : that is to say. that it must bo possible for all the ships to obtain oil m New Zealand ports. L believe it is possible in Wellington now, and 1 think that the nece sary arrangement,; have been made to provide oil tanks at Auckland. At all events the necessary laud has been secured. (3) Assistance in equipping Empire naval bases by financial contribution or supply of material manufactured in New Zealand. (4) Providing bases, clocks, depots, and reserves of stores and fuel in New Zealand for vessels maintained by Now Zealand. (o) Providing for local protection or trade and storage of guns for merchant ships and their escorts, and providing trained personnel for them. (6) Providing mobile defence organisations for ports, including mine sweeping organisations NX's Representation. The Prime Minister next discussed the representation of New Zealand at the \\ asnington Conference, and at the League of Nations peace conference, 'ihere was only one vote for the British Empire at the Washington Conference, and tho Dominions never voted separately. The vote that was given on behalf of the Empire was that of an indivisible unit. (Hear, hear.; At the League of Nations, each Dominion being entitled to membership, was entitled, to a separate vote. There was_ always the possibility of three Dominions voting one way and three voting the other. "I did not like it," said Mr Massey. "The Dominions were apt to nullify eaeh other. An attempt was made to have the same stylo of voting at the Wahington Conference, but I was ono of those that opposed it. The attempt failed."

Treaty Powers of Dominions. There was a prevauing idea, continued Mr MaseYj tnat different parts of the Empire should have the privilege of signing a treaty independent of each. other. To that course, too, he novor agreed, as it was never intended by Great Britain or the Dominions. "This raises a very awkward point," Mr Massey said. "Members will remember that in connexion with the fishing rights on the Canadian coast, it was agreed that something m the nature of a treaty should bs arranged between Canada and the United States. I want it distinctly understood that I am not adversely criticising the Government of Canada, for they havo every right to manago their own affairs without interference from without, but the Government of the United States insisted that the Treaty should be signed by l tlw Canadian Minister of Marine on behalf of Canada.' The .awkward point arises hero: that the signing of a treaty like that concerns matters in which Great Britain and tho whole of the Empire are interested. According to international law and constitutional custom that treaty should have been signed by the British Ambassador on the One hand and the representative of tho United States on the other. 'Hie Canadian Minister of Marine signed the treaty. ' Mr Bonar Law, speaking in the House of Commons, said that Mr Lopointe had been given authority to sign, not on behalf of Canada, but on behalf of the Empire. I know that Mr Hughes, the former Prime Minister of the Commonwealth of Austra. a, would express himself very strongly on that question, but, of course, he will not be at the Conference. If Mr Lepointe signed the treaty without lull authority the treaty has no value at all. This is one of the matters that I hope we will be able to settle at the coming Imperial Conference.

Turkey and Gallipoli. The Prime Minister reviewed what had led up to the serious state of atfairs with Turkey in regard to Gallipoli last year. He declared that he had not been as anxious during the Great AVar, for if the complications caused by Kemal Pasha had not been overcome with the tactiul firmness used by Lord Curzon, there might have been precipitated a war of races which would have involved the East. "I have reason to believe, at the tame time, however." said Mr Massey, "that the great proportion of the Indian people are thoroughly loyal to Britain. The princes have tremendous influence witli the people, and I believe that all the princes are loval. I am not afraid of India 'cutting the painter,' but what would be possible would be an exhausting civil war.'' One incident the Empire had reason to be proud of was the declaration of Lord Curzon that he would not dismiss with the Turks any question of handing over, Gallipoli; that any part whole British soldiers wore buried was a part of Britain. Partners' Rights. "There is one aspect of the Imperial problem that is rarely discussed," said the Prime Minister. "We are partners of the Empire, but we have never fully assumed the privileges of partnership. I am not blaming tho British Government, because they are just as anxious to meet us as we are to meet them, but it must be remembered that the Sovereign is the head of the Empire with the House of Lords and the House of Commons. Some day there may be a different arrangement about those two houses, but there will always be the sovereign. (Hear, hear.) We have never yet got to that stage when Dominion representatives were able to join with the representatives of the British Government in making communications to the sovereign. At the last conference the British Prime Minister (Mr Lloyd George), in reply to a question of mine, said the importance of the suggestion was not lost on the Government. We should have exactly the same right as the Ministers who represent the British Government, and we should be in the position of approaching the sovereign. There is another point in this connexion. It has been said that each part of the Empire, Dominion, or Grown Colony, in the event of the Empire being involved in war, has the right to stand out. I do not Buggest the possibility of going to war with any other part of the Empire that took up such a stand, but what would the enemy think? That Dominion would still remain in the eyos of th'e enemy as a part of the Empire, and its ships would be sunk and its trade harassed just the same. I hold fast to the constitutional procedure: That when the Empire goes to war, every part of the Empire should be at war also. Let there be no misapprehension. Every Dominion has a perfect right to make a commercrar treaty, but it must not make a treaty that is likely to involve tne Empire iu war, without the full authority of

the Empire, and without the sovereign being consulted. Ihere is no other way.'-' The Franco-German Question. The present situation in the Ruhr was the next subject dealt with by -Mr .fiassey. Jt was a very dangerous proceeding, he said. France- couat not withdraw, she had now 10 see it out whatever happened, ior ii slie withdrew, it would be an admission of weakness. His sympathy u a.s with France. Germany had caused the war. Representatives of fourteen countries sat for 116 days taking evidence before the Treaty of Versailles. Germany went to war after looking forward to it for many years, but she lost it. and in accordance with constitutional usage anj international law, she should be prepared to pay. "What is to be done?'' ho asked. "Germany ?h uld not ho allowed to get off. I have no doubt that the ques-i in wilL be submitted to us, and the advic-J of the Dominions will be ljstoned to. 'Witr may not come immediately, but. I believe that in regard to what is going on now. there may be war before \ery long." Britain's Credits. "There is something: else, but I don't know whether the British Government will bring it up, and that is the financial position of Great Britain arising out of the late war," continued 31 r Massey. ''There is a huge sum owing to her for war debts by the Allies. Great Britain has taken the whole responsibility of paying America for the money owiniv to her "by the Allies during the war. There arc many reasons why we should be proud of Great Britain for her aeticn. Britain has stood up to her financial responsibilities like no other country in the world would have done. Sho will get there some day, but it will be a long and a heavy burden on tiie shoulders of the British people.

Ail Empire Council. In conclusion, the Prime Minister stated emphatically that lie woum not go to the Conference with his hands tied. (Reform hear, hears.) Ho would not take up a position that would be humiliating to himself or to the country he was going to represent. lie would give memoers all the information passible before lie left, and also when ho came back. He had never kept anything back before except some few matters that were entirely confidential. Some of these were matters of importance, but others were not of much importance. He hoped that at this Conference they would be ablo to arrange a more satisfactory organisation than that which was in operation at the present time. Some time or other there might be in power in the United Kingdom a Government that would be antagonistic to what was called the Empire idea, a Government that might desire to "cut the painter" and get rid of the Dominions. That was an idea that prevailed m the days of Cobden, who had said plainly that ono of his objects in bringing about free imports was to get rid of the incubus of the colonies. However, they had hoard nothing of that for the last 75 years, and times had changed since then, for the colonies Were becoming nations. There was, however, always the possibility that some Government might become antagonistic to the Empire idea, or careless of the connexion of Britain with the different parts of it,.and that might lead'to the break up of the Empire. He would like to see some means adopted to avoid that, iP such means could be devised. At present there was far more work for the Conference than could be done in the time allotted to it, and he hoped to see something in the nature of an Empire Council that would devote more attention to the affairs of the Empire than was at present possible by these Conferences.

(press association telegram.) Mr Wilford's Speech. Mr T. M. Wilford (Leader Of the Opposition) said "that though he might not agree with all tho sentiments and opinions expressed by the Prime Minister, tho first thing to be noted wasi that tho Conference was not one of Governments, but of Prime Ministers of different parts of the Emipre. It was not only a talk round tho table, but was designed to furnish the British Government with tho Dominions' ideas on questions of foreign policy which arise from time to time. The Prime Minister had the right to criticise any question of foreign policy, and on tho subject of treaties ho ought) to insist that any secret treaty was a breach of trust. In tho new Constitution granted to Ireland, it was explicitly stated that Ireland had the right' to stand out of Empire wars, and other Dominions had taken up the position that they were not bound by any resolutions passed at the Conference until approved by their respective Parliaments, so that in passing tho motion moved by tho Prime Minister they were only ialling into lino with constitutional practice. We therefore hud a right to have a say in foreign policy, because aii foreign policy toucned ttreat Britain, aiiu, in doing that, touched us. Wo might stand out of wars if we liked, but he agreed with Mr Massey that we should not stand out. The Empire was a family iield together not by a signed and sealed contract, but by ties pf race, ana he agreed with Lord Birkenhead when ho said tho only way to get out of tho Empire was to fight a way out. bo far as the Washington Treaty was concerned, we were up in the air, because it had not been fully ratified. The terms offered by the Allies to Russia regarding-the payment of debts were reasonable, and should be insisted on. Ho did not suppose wo would play much of a part in the matter of German reparations. I-ranee had gone into the Ruhr, and could not be got out He hoped the whole problem would be referred to the League of Nations, winch he looked upon as a sort of John the Baptist going out into the wilderness of world afahs to prepare the way Australia stood more in need of defence thin New Zealand, but we all recogS the need of the . Navy which must be maintained for the safety rot only of the outposts of the Empire, but of nil the important trade routes ■ What the Empire needed more than anything else to-day was unity of policy. The Prime Minister would not fight for us alone, but for us with all the other Dominions in securing unitv of policy for the Empire. Yve would have to be very careful regarding wireless, but he did not agree with Mr Massey that there was no carding of wireless ever entirely superseding cables. A wireless chain for the Empire was what was required and what the Prime Minister should work for We should support the naval base at Singapore. Imperial preference, economic trado preference within the Empire and Russian trade should be left to the Prime Minister to decide on tl:« spot. The Versailles Treaty might be modified to bring it more "into touch economically with modern thought, but not so far as national adjustments were concerned.

Mr Holland's Views. Mr H. E. Holland contended that the motion moved by the Prime Minister was a win for the Labour Party. Five years ago there had been no chance of getting suck a motion through the Etouso and, together with the Prime Minister, tie Leader of the Opposition was trending in the right direction for once. So far a3 the motion went, he had no particular objection to it, but Mr Massey might have, added a clause to the effect that the House agrees to his going to

the conference. He then proceeded to outline the causes behind' the unrest in the Near East, which lie attributed largely to the oil interests. ■So far as reparations were cou.erned, he said it was only possible to get reparations out of \iie exportable surplus of German goods, and that could not be done until German credit was restored. One of the thine; the Prime -Minister should do at the conference was to press for the revision of the Versailles Treaty. Trade with Russia should be resumed: indeed, the task of the British Empire wa.s to restore peaceful, economic" relationships with all the other peoples of the world. -I he adjournment of the detvue was moved by .Mr S. G. Smith (Taranaki). the House rose at 11.15 till 2.30 to-morrow.