TOTALISATOR PERMITS.

Press, Volume LVII, Issue 17293, 3 November 1921, Page 9

TOTA LISATOR PERMITS.

gaming bill rejected. \ > > —— INTERESTING debate in house. . (SPECIAL TO "I'HC PRESS.''I "WELLINGTON". November ". The Gaming Act Amendment Bill, { Schwas based on the Totalisator Commission's report, came on for its second wading in thc of Hr P rcsenlalivcs this evening, a>«r in -onsequenc.- there a3 un uMial interest in the proceedings. There were crowded galleries aud m:my k pould not obtain sealing. Even ladies' galleries w«re crowded, a considerable number of se...s being occupied bv scholars from a gills' school. wcro i ,VL ' spni in forco ' a,ld " were keenly interested and ready uith serious and humorous, us the prime Minister commenced hi 3 second reding speech. jfr. jfaasey said he wished to make it perfectly clear that if the Bill was oassed/ the proposals would come beforft«tbe House again. Ho gave that assarMfc®. because there seemed to be MfflerdbiiH in the minds of members. The Bill was of no value without the allocation, and the allocation was not jlthe permits be increased? Does not that mean that someone must allocate 28 more permits? Jlr Massey: Certainly that is the proposal in the report, and it was my duty to place it before Parliament. If the second reading is agreed to to-night, I do not propose to bring tho Bill up -gain for bomo time. We may not have other subjects to discuss as interesting as this one. I admit that we have some that are far more important. ;(Hear hear.) At present the business before' Parliament is so important that T cannot allow it after, to-night to be interfered with, until wo .get the Financial Statement dealt with, and alßo'the tariff, and some other legislation that will be necessary, dealing with position of the country. Until we get those things disposed of, it will be three weeks or a month, but I want to: take a division to-night, so that we ® a y know exactl y where W . Q Will the House have an of voting for or against the OMjpMaßsey: I have given that as;*uiin6e' half-a-dozen times. jfr : Lysnar: Notwithstanding what •happens, to this Bill to-night? • Mr'Massey; I don't caije what hap- ! the majority of the members,"throw it out. . ~ , ■0 Mr Wilford: If the Bill is negatived, Itho report is finished. , ;t ' Eeadjustment of Permits. Mr Massey: If the Bill is negatived, .'fee reoort is done. It goes . into-the i-vasiepaper basket. If the Bill is car* ' ried. you will have an opportunity of .'• voting on the report. A great deal or i-the report is good. I know members ' i do not agree with the whole of it, bnt , ',I ask', the majority to support that part T : which; is: good, and we can deal with •ii the-other when the opportunity offers, "y In the report there are just three pnn r ■k ciples : involved. First of all, there is iu. certain amount of readjustment pro- : folded for in it. Thin it is provided that there should be increases for up■r-?- country l districts; then that certain obiii jectiwiab&aturea in connexion with : system' should be amoved. W'ill venturtfto say that there are ■ dozen members m the who will disagree | Trith [any one of these. l»nn«pl«J.» J ' passing, let mo Bay thw: I dont pre- ' k an authority on racing, , *?<fcoUKli I lvn.To been tt> race meetiO^dn y ocoaaonß/apeoaHy-.«««» ' "teen in charge of the fiaajioes; <)r the .Stw. Ohl Ohl and -'laughter.) I hope there is not;anything wrong in that. I was going on .> to 6ay ; that I believe there has been ?* li rgreat' in this ' Cridfliiy' M --i connexion with-racing matters within, I,'the last, twenty yeare., Twenty, ywf - ago, I arti bound to say, I did nob "v fenow mucfli about racing—l am • nOT . • • siiro that I know a great'deal'about it. ir fi"iiowT<—but I know that at that tuuei sphere wero continual reports of jockeys fimwng. bought, of Worses being doped, of • Jtrainers being got at, and *of owner's ;f ; dishonest. X ami glad to acknowaMtedgo that one very seldom hears any-M&bing'-of that sort now.' Mr Witty: That must (hare heen-a Auckland;-, •. ";• ' ' "Things Must Be SegulatecL'* • .Massey: I ain the hon.. gen- ' .l-itfeman' -would not suggest that Oanter•iyVthtuy was, tho only .place, in the pountry . tli«« dishonest jpracticea went ygfon.' (Laughter.) Thero *is still a posjijpbility of improvement. I have (heard iiff good deal a,bonfc proprietary clubs. -iSntmn the lafet\fefr weeks. So far as clubs- ore concerned, that u'aprt of thing cannot he tolerated i» 4>Y|Jhis country, t and I advise those clnba f(S®i^iw;jl^r.BUspicion',df;l»«ng-pro-k clubs to get . their house in I and to do it very;quickly. It is ■possible for the Minister of, InAffaira to do-a great deal on Jus lecount, even -without the i.tiona of the Commission. If there poking, wrong, it lias' to bo , put a if there' is anything that wants ng upi it must be cleaned up. I .want to interfere with what is itibrial sporty of: the country to : a extent, any- Toot© than I can help, bings must be regulated, and so iVtho present Government is conUthey are out to regulate t|iem.

At this stage Mr Massey proceeded to quote from the report. One of the passages he quoted was as follows: "That, it is highly undesirable, either by redistribution of licenses hitherto granted, or by the issue of additional licenses or otherwise, to increase materially the volume of totalisator bettin<r in this Dominion." "Why." said Mr Massey, ''the member for Christchurch North might have written that." (Laughter.) Mr Isitt: They talk and they don't do anything. r The Country Clubs. After further quotations, Mr Massev proceeded to say that the proposal for the issue of an additional twenty-eight licenses, though at first sight it might appear to be a violent departure from tho principle laid down at the commencement of-the report, was really not so. Tho Commission had taken away a number of racing d;iys from thv l.'irgy centres of population, and });•.:! given permits for thos? arid a i'ow more to the country districts where thero wcro no permits in operation at present. He had heard last yuar that on Boxing Day at Ellerslic there were 40,000 Menplo on thc racecoiir-e. lie was not finding fault, but only stating the tact. Probably the average attendance at Metropolitan race meeiiiiL:-, was nicire like *20.000 than 4f>,oCO, but supposing it to be 20,000, tlio C'timmissiou proposed to take away a, numb.-r of the permits for Mich meetings and to give them to districts where lhe attendance was in some instances not more than a thousand. "Now with regard to Wellington." Mr Massey proceeded, "I am not (.roing to defend what Jias taken place in Wellington. I aui not certain that a mistake has not been made, but "ho does not make mistakes? The position in Wellington is that they are getting ono additional day for the ordinary racing and three additional days for trotting. I am not going to express any opinion on that. They have had one day's trotting for a number of years past. I do not know that it was particularly well attended —I have not been there — but that does not affect the argument that it is quite likely—l do not say it is definite—that if thc whole of the proposals in the report were agreed to, increases and all, gambling on the totalisator would be lessened instead of being increased. Mr Witty: Don't you want the money P Mr Massey: I want money, yes. People who are taxed by the totalisator are taxed voluntarily, and that is one of the good things about it. The Gambling Aspect. Mr Witty: Then why not leave things as they are? Mr Massey: Then tho hon. member would leave the up-country districts without the day's sport they are asking for? 1 do not think he means that. I have a personal letter here from'the chairman of the Racing Commission. He says: "By increasing the racing days we have not increased the facilities for. gambling. We have rather, decreased these facilities. There aie certainly more days in the _ country,_ but there are many less days in the cities.'' "For other reasons," the Prime Minister went on, "we are going to have a decrease in the investments on the totalisator. The financial stringency through which we are passing is bound to affect tho investments." He calculated that the investments on the totalisator would go down by twenty-five per j cent, during the present season. Mr Isitt: Do not the totalisator investments influence the financial stringency? • . Mr Massey:' My answer to that is this: Whether we approve of the method of obtaining the money or not, the £500.000 odd that we receive from the totalisator has been very useful to me during the present _ year. I will remind tnembeTs that we are well into the racing year. ■ A number of race meetings have: been held and others have been advertised. It is quite plain though I won't give a guarantee with this—that the present arrangements are likely to continue for the present yearV It.is contemplated in. the j-ep.ort that a, number of 'pormita will go to up-Country districts,' where there are no rofcecourses, no grandstands, no seating accommodation, no .totalisator,' and .no stables. . They cannot get all these things'in the first sis months. It would' probably be a couple, of years. before the'proposals, if agreed to to-night in i their entirety, could come into operation .' The Posltioh of the Bill. ' A Member: What 'happens' if tho Bill is not agreed to? . € Mr Massey: It goes into the waste* - J^metnber: .What about the Order-in-. Council? ■ , . . ... Mr.Massey: The Order-in-Councii -is done. ... Mr. Statham: Will not the report etiandP _ ,; , . -Mr- Massey: Tlfoo -report will-be-in print} but it will not bo in.'operation. If-the-answer, of the 5 House to the -Hill is "Yes," then I say the House is not done, with it.. This business is in the choice of .the Minister of Internal Affairs./ These proposals will .be taken in hand, 1 if-the second reading .is agreed to to-night, by Mr Downie Stewart/. Ihope he .will: have • the asslstanoe of members whov are fairminded 'and unbiassed, and will do vfhat they believe is to be the right thing in tiho circumstances by cpmrng down with a recommendation for readjustment of the proposals made by the Commission. Sir John Luke: What is tho.good of the Commission's report, then ? 1 . Air Massey: It is the best basis possible oh which we can go.- I know the value of this report. The^Ministsr.will como down, after consulting members, witli a sot of resolutions—not a lengtlhy' set, probably threo or four.--Mr :Mitohell : Would it not bo better to say "Yes" or "No," and.if it is "Yes," adopt the report in its entirety? Mr Massey: I don't _think, even in the justice is being done to one. or two districts I can think of. To bring it into ojicration in its- entirety would cause a good deal of heartburning. I want to avoid that if it is possible. Th« Government wishes to do what-is rig'ht, and this is tlio only way in which it can do it. 'Mr Wilford's Criticism. Mr AVilford (Leader of the Opposition/referred to the extraordinary manner in which the Bill was drawn. ThoBill proposed to amend tne Act of 1910, Vbut the Act of 1910 amended the Act of 1908, wihich provided for 2oQ permits. 'lu. 191-4 a short Act wod r>att>ed which, gave the Minister power to grant up to 31 oxtra licenses in any ono year. Thus thero w-.ts provision to grant 250 licenses, plus 31, or 281 in all. It was quite clear, however, that tho present Bill did not amend the Act of 1914. Thc Bill now introduced said therefore that there would be the number recommended by the Commission, namely, 28, plus the 250, of the 1910 Bill, or 278 in all. Could'the 31 extra permits of the 1914 Bill bo added to those figures? • Mr Massey: Tlio correct number is sot forth in the report. Mr Wilford said that the position did not square with the words in the Bill introduced. Mr Massey: The thing is: set forth in the report; there is no getting away from that. Mr Wilford: That does not help us. Thero is no sign of the report in the Bill. Mr Massey; If anything is not clear, I will make it clear in thc Bill. Mr Wiljiord proceeded to read part of the Commission's report for the purpose of putting it on record in "Hansard," and added that he did not suppose that any speech that night would alter a single , vote. Every member had already made up his mind bow he would vote. He expressed himself in favour of an. increase in the permits_ in the Wellington district. The trotting permits compared very unfavourably with Canterbury and Auckland. There ( were 17 days' trotting in Canterbury, , II in Auckland, and only ono in Wei- ;

i • I lington. That was not fair from the 1 Empire cit-y standpoint, and ho proi tested against it. He thankee tbo.se concerned with trotting in the other cities for agreeing that "Wellington | should be better treated. An hon. member: Quite right.. Wellineton. added Mr»Wilford,,should have two or three more days Tor trotting. He went on to say that racing club?- should open their grounds to the public for sports and recreation purposes when they were not required for racing purposes, as was done ill the ease of the Avondale Club. The racing clubs . yrere not entirely to shut thecn up 'against the public for the whole year, i He intended to vote for the Bill, because | he belie* ed there should be an increase of j permits. As to the reduction in invest- ! rnents on the totalisator, he did not believe thev were a true index of the financial condition of the country, because tlvjv would find that in a wool' district. the returns had fallen, whereas in a dairying district they had : ljot gone down. Thus in Taranalii there was Tie drop, bnt in Hawke's Bay there was. Ho quoted Sir George Clifford's figures regarding the revenue the Government secured from racing— £404.4(34 in all —which ho said was an important consideration. He pointed out that if members wanted the report of the C'om- ! nu-j-ion carried, they should vote for tho Bill! If he wished to kill'the report, iio would do so by defeating this Bill. Members had a free hand and the party whip would not be cracked. The Prime Minister would no doubt vote for the BillMr Massev: Yes, I'll vote for the Bill. A Referendum Suggested. Mr H. E. Holland (leader of the Lahour T\-irtv) said the real issue ought to he whether totalisator gambling should he continued. He thought it a pity that so much of the time of the House thould be taken up on a question of the kind. Members had debated the matter at very great length in 1920. They bad set up a Commission, and now they were back again where they started, owing apparently to another revolt among Government members. Mr Holland lamented that the House took more interest m the totalisator than in issues of vast national concern, such as the Anglo-Japanese Alliance. The proper course would be to take a referendum on the question of whether or not the people wanted the totalisator. It tho people approved of the gambling system, -then everv centra should h&\€ the permits it wanted. He proposed to move in Committee an amendment ordering a referendum and postponing the allocation of permits in the meantime, lhe leader of tho Labour Party assured the House that he had never made a bet on a horse iace. Mr Witty: You poor fellow. Mr Holland made members smile by reproving thein for waste of time at the close of his fairly .lengthy speech. Mr Isitt's Attitude. Mr L. M. Isitt said he would find it necessary to . state very clearly what his position was. At a recent meeting or the Wellington Trotting Club, Mr ftA. Armstrong had said that if tlio racing people stood together they would "scatter those vultures, the killjoys, to th© four winds." The use of the word "vulture" to describe those who tried to keep the poor pigeons from being plucked by the undesirable elements connected., with racing was rather humorous. He quoted from 'Hansard to show that in .1907 Mr EVtassey had expressed emphatically the opinion tnat there was too much gambling on the totalisator in New Zealand. Seventeen pounds per head of the • population was invested on the .totalisator. It was inI congruous' to think that in. a few days ; the Prime Minister would introduce the financial statement, which no doubt would again emphasise tho need for economy, yet at. present ha had introduced a Bill to increase the totalisator permits by 28. He wanted to niake his position clear, proceeded Mr Isitt. He had never advocated the doing away with racing—for ono thing he had no intention of attempting, the impossible —but he did oppose any increase in permit crease the volume of gambling. While Minister had said that every membor was free to vote as he would, and that the House must decide, he .could, not,escape hi 3. responsibility in this matter. . •Mr Massey: I have,no wish to escape j responsibility. . Though the Prime Minister had said it was not a party matter, continued Mr Isitt, the way in which Mr Massey voted must inevitably .influence the votes of a. number of those who acknowledged his leadership. Dealing with the attitude of various members, Mr Isitt, said that the question, of permits was notgoing-to be-decidod-on moral issues. ; Member after member would face the question according-as it affected the i racing institutions in his own electorate, i It had- been said - that -there was no moral issue involved. If that was so, why ■ •were- all i the churches - protesting against any increase of permits. If j there- was no • moral - issue,- -why place .any. restriction upon permits at ■ all? ■lt was because -there- was a moral issue that no man who loved his country] could but view with alarm any increase in the volume of gambling. I Other Speakers. Sir William Herries pointed out that the member for Christcluirch North, who had . taken Up a-high moral atti- 1 tilde, could not defeat the Bill without the assistance of ''the riff-raff" of tho Turf, otherwise the members who approved of racing. The question before the House was simply whether or not the number of permits should be increased. A majority of members in 1920 had desired to increase the number, and had been within an ace of getting their own way. After an all- | night sitting, an unfortunate coinpro- • mise had delayed the decision. Tile ; tight now was oil again, and he could : scarcely believe that the men . who i wanted lo increase the number of permits viero going to assist the opponents of racing to defend the report. Members: If Ave do that we can keep our permits. Sir/William Herries said he believed the Commission had made some mistakes. His own impression was that too much attention had been given to trotting, and too little to galloping, but members who voted out the report now would do so in ignorance of the allocation that would be proposed in the resolution. Members who wanted extra permits to be granted should vote for i the Bill. They could fight later about the details of allocation. ViLBEtDCKD TRESS ASSOCIATION KCFOST.) Mr Mitchell said he wanted a readjustment of trotting permits, because they were at present rather top-heavy. Otherwise ho was prepared to leave things as they were to-day. Mr Hockly said ho would support the I Bill and the Commission's report,, I which, if given effect to, would not inert 1 vso gambling. Hie lion. G. J. Anderson said the Commission sot up by tho Government was a good Commission, and the proper course for tho House to follow was to accept its report. Mr MeC'ombs said he must vole against the Bill; but if it was carried, he would vote to give effect. to the Commission's report. 31 r Hudson supported tho Bill because it would bo a- measure of justice to country districts. Mr McLeod said he regretted that a more definite opportunity had not been given to the House to vote for or against tiio Commission's report, but filling that, he would vote for the Bill although his district had lost a uavs racing. Tho bookmakers were at the back of proposals to hold a referendum on the subject of the totalisator, and they were prepared to spend many thousands of pounds to kill tho totalisator. If the Commission's report did nothing elso than to'draw attention to the danger of proprietary racing clubs, the money spent on it was a good investment. • !

Mr Lysnar said he could not voto for the Bill unless he could get an assur-

1 anoe from the Prime Minister that existing permits would not be disturbed. ,The Dominion was growing, and extra , permits were required. Mr Massey said if members wished to avoid the wrangle which niiglu arise in allocating permits, the Gin eminent would take the responsibility of allocating them. Mr Lysriar: Will you loavo existing permits undisturbed? Mr Massoy: I make no promise. ; Mr St.ilham contended that. the House should have had a straight-out ; vote for or against th<» report of tho t . Commission. The Bill, with backing Iby the Government, must- have certain amour, c of iailacnce upon members, therefore the vote would not be perfectly,free from party. Personally he was against an increase in permits, and would vote against the Bill. After midnight the discussion was ' carried, on by Messrs Potter and Harris, wiio oppoMid the Bill. Mr R.. W. Smith 'supported the Bill, and Messrs D. Jones, Edie, and Savage opposed rt. At 1.30 a.m. th" Prime Minister rose to reply, during the course of which ' li'f indicated that the combination of ' nii'iubcrs which was taking place wfs likt'ly to do a grave injustice >o conii- . try clubs by depriving tlieiu ol their , share ot' the sport. SECOND HEADING NEGATIVED. On a division the motion that the , Bill Ik; ri'ad a second time was lost by 150 to The House rose at 1.12 fi.m.