THE LICENSING QUESTION.

Press, Volume LIV, Issue 16357, 31 October 1918, Page 6

THE LICENSING QUESTION.

DOMINION TRADE DEPUTATION, PETITION CONTAINING 306,836 SIGNATURES. Telegraph.) W ELLINGTON, October so. Dominion representatives of th» licensed and brewing trades waited on : Mr* Massey and Sir Joseph Ward to. day at Parliament Buildings, in tho - form of a largo deputation, to present petitions for a liquor referendum, and to submit arguments in support of what was claimed to be tho true solution of tho liquor problem. Mr R. Bollard, 31.P., in introducing ' the deputation, said that tho deputaI tion represented the whole licensed trade throughout the Dominion. H had a petition tq present. Ministers had received a deputation from tho no-license party during the previous week, and Mr Massey had said thea, very wisely, that he could not give a decision until ho had heard all sides. The. speakers would simply state their ease and their proposals. He expect, ed that there would be other deputations and that Mr Massey would ba unable to say more that day than ha had already said, but it was right that the Trade's ease should be put clearly before the Government. A HUGE PETITION. Mr A. E. Kernot, president of the National Council of the Licensed Trade , •in New Zealand, said: It has fallen to mv lot as president i;f tho National Council of Now Zeaj land, which is representative of all branches of the licensed trade in this country, to present to you thg largest petition—that is, the most numerously, sighed petition—which it has over been the lot of any New Zealand Parliament \ to receive. (Applause.) You will remember, sirs, that at the close of the session of Parliament in 1917, yott made a statement to the effect that a definite solution of tho liquor question in this Dominion should bo found. Wo contemplated that suggestion, and • we have found what wo cbnsider to be a definite and true solution of the, qtiostion. This petition does not ask for tho dividing of tho people while the war is on. That, in our judgment, would bo unpatriotic. We do not seek .to create sectional strife and politioai : bitterness at this time, but our petition requests that an alteration of the r voting" paper on tho liquor question, should be made for the next general election. Our proposal, supported by ; this petition, is that there should b* three issues on the ballot paper, : namely: ' N National Continuance, r . t National Prohibition, . , National Ownership. ' t Tho submission of these issues to the ' people will allow of all having an oppof- * tunity of expressing their view on the whole question. This petition contains " no fewer than 806.826 signatures. (Applause.) They repre- '' sent an absolute majority of the electors of the Dominion, thus giving „ added emphasis to the election returns", of December, 1914, when 267,000 eleO^-' tors voted for national . Aspersions have already been cast 1 our opponents in your presence updsfe the genuineness of the signatures. may have been done in ignorance, WfAthough we know it is the custom ojjjlg/ defeated party to abuse their oppoiW, ents. We challenge and demona scrutiny of both petitions, for no ter what our opponents' petition be like, we are satisfied as to genuineness of our own. . SOLDIERS AND EFFICIENCY. V- v Occasion has been taken by our opiopponents to malign our people and libel ,'" our soldiers on the score of Our soldiers havo been spoken of asiW"being over-indulgent, and the people of this country as being inefficient,^, through their consumption of alcoholic liquors, although thore are no more sober and temperate people among the/fe civilised nations. It wbb with ■ gratifi-a* cation that we noted how the Gover-" • nor-General's speech at the opening of the present Parliament inferentially re-' ~ pudiated the assertions of the Prohibitionists that Prohibition was necessatfu to improve the efficiency of our softi diers. The Governor-QeneraL's speech ' s | stated: — * * "In the operations on the a Western f " front our New Zealand Division haa been constantly in action, and has - given the Dominion renewed cause to he proud of our soldiers' record courage and discipline." We are proud of our New Zealand': % soldiers, and are satisfied thatmenwho*. have fought for liberty and 1 abroad ought not themselves to be prived of their own liberty and their privileges as free citizens in their* ab-i sense. (Applause). j'MJ-s NEW ZEALAND'S GREAT RECORD/pSf As to the efficiency of the people, itjrii is only necessary to pomt out during these four years of war, and '*-$■ notwithstanding the withdrawal of over > 100,000 men from their ordinary avo- > ? cations, the people have loaned to the Government £35,000,000, have exported over £100,000,000 worth of have increased their bank deposits by ■ £38,000,000, and havo voluntarily con- t ' tributed upwards of £2,000,000 to pat- \ riotic purposes. (Applause). Mr Massey: It is nearer five mil- " lions. _ ' Mr Kernot smilingly replied that flu 1 party always kept well within tho mark ' when quoting figures, but he would lets it go at five millions. .■■■;. ' "That speaks we 11,," Mr Massey .?• . marked, "for the Government's ao--. ministration." \ "I grant you that." Mr Kernot coa- r k turned, "and yet the Pujhibitionists-, 5.; and their associate* constantly reiter- ' ate the assertion that our soldiers and our people are lacking in efficiency and sobriety. Surely such statements, ill J the face of New Zealand's record, must be condemned. There is. therefore, in , our judgment, and in tho opinion of the hundreds of thousands of people" who have signed this petition, absolute- • : ly no necessity for_ dividing the people on tho liquor question at this tjme fi and , cur petition requests that tho National Government shall only prepare for a true and definite solution in terms or tho petition at the next general election. (Applause). . "That sirs," said Mr Kernot m conclusion, "is the statement I have to make on behalf of this deputation, , which is representative of every Q u ® r , - , of New Zealand, and every part of tho . y licensed trade which hitherto has, not ni tad any privileges accorded it, aiJQ . behalf of which w0 . n °™ a nuapresent a petition of 306,000 . pie. This speaks its own language (Applause.) _ - THE BREWERS' VIEWPOINT. Mr C. Speight, of Dunedin said: I represent tho brewing $ ' the licensed trade The br ®Y r " 0 f New Zealand are tno manufacturersoj an article which has. been in demaflfl by people from time immemor^ and the commodity we manufacturo u regarded by consumers essentia ]? their health, comfort, I also como in support of this potmo with its 306,826 signatures, whg # comprises an absolute majority electors of the Dominion len

mv friend Mr Kernot dorse wna * d to t j, e genuineness i "itvf 1 ?; of Wisp cneering remarks wheh have nation , promoters of the proEftiSi petition with regard to the L and straightforwardness of the bo n e sty anU str t demand) fo r alteration on the ballot paper at ?he next general election is asfced for by hundreds and thousands of men and Sen of this country, who are as loyal and patriotic as any other minor Son of the New Zealand public. Bat, then, such allegations are simply « ill faurq with tho wild and ill-con-sidered statements of the Prohibition- ' ALLIED TRADES AND BUSINESS INTERESTS. Speaking for the brewing industry, I would point out to you that the I,rowers do not own the whole of tho businesses connected with the licensed trade, and do not take the whole of the revonue derived from the trade. It is a popular conception that the brewers own all tho. hotels and accommodation houses in New Zealand. Thia nopular conception has been orroneousy created by tho ignorance of our opponents. Let me give you nlam facts in this connexion. Over 80 por nf the licensed hotel property in this Dominion i? owned by private individuals. who are not connected with the trade'as a trade in any way whatever, save as freeholders, or, what we can private owners, of ho+ol properties. I would a!?o like to point out, as a brewer, that tho majority of the brewing companies in New Zoaland are not individual institutions. Many aro limited liability companies, with hundreds of shareholders, whose living is, to some extent, if not altogether, derived from the dividends thoy receive, just as other shareholders of public companies derive their livelihood from similar dividends. I will not co into the matter of tho many allied trades and occupations, save to mention barley and bop growers, who are among our primary producors. PATRIOTISM AND LOYALTY OP THE TRADE. Reference has already been made by Mr Kernot to the courage, moral, and character of our Now Zealand soldiers, and I would like to express my satisfaction with that quotation he made from the Governor-General's speech to Parliament, in which the nobility of their deeds and conduct was extolled. With regard to ourselves, I could offer such testimony to the patriotism and loyalty which our fraternity have shown during tho four years of tho nation's greatest trials, but ono-quotation from a speech made by the Prime Minister of England (Mr Lloyd George) will suffice. On February 23rd, 1917, Mr Lloyd George, when he was proposing to imposo further taxation upon the trade in England, made this statement:— "The Government are bound to recognise the patriotic spirit in which those who are engaged in this business have faced all restrictions which have hampered them, and reduced their profits during tho war. It would not bo fair for me not to recognise that at once they have accepted all these interferences in the most laudable spirit of determination to do all that is in their power to contribute to the safety of the nation. There is no man in the House who has fought the brewers, publicans, and distillers harder than I have, but I am bound to say that they have met the appeal which I made to them in a patriotic spiritin an attitude of mind which could leave nothing to be desired from the point of view of anybody who is trying to help this country along. < If there are any failures I do not think the blame rests upon them. I am bound to say so. and I think it is due to them." (Applause.) i nec-d add nothing more except to express the hope that the petition now piesented to you will receive the sympathetic) consideration which its more than three hundred thousand signatories have a right to expect from yourselves, the members of the National Cabinet, and Parliament itself. (Applause.) ON BEHALF OF THE LICENSED VICTUALLERS. Mr R. Dwyer said:— I'desire also not only to endorse what has been said by the previous speakers, but to state that I como representing 1200 licensed victuallers to support the petition. We are engaged jtn a perfectly legitimate business, and are ■ carrying it on in ,a perfectly legitimate way; indeed, ■ as you are aware from your officers' reports, the general conduct of the Trade throughout Now Zealand is particularly exemplary. We have had to submit to restrictions, and liavo submitted for the reasons bo well expressed by Mr Lloyd George, a quotation from whose speech you nave just heard from Mr Speights But no other trading, body in this country has submitted, neither have they been asked to submit, to such restrictions as we have been required to submit to during the past four years. These restrictions have entailed serious loss upon ourselves, but thoy have been cheerfully borne, although we> have considered that they had boen imposed on account of the fallacious plea of their helping to win the war. We would, of course, desire to be allowed to conduct our businesses undor the law, t and in keeping with the law always, and not Be subjected to continuous irritation by public agitators who have ■ been using j wa L, to advance their own political f* Those who spoke to you in support of our opponents' petitions, told you in these words: "If we do not get S?L??£ ant year from the S. we will como back next year, thus threatening the Government with the continuity of the minority and fanatical demands. We <1° not say wo will come again; we do ?hL but this wo 'do say: that this petition of ours is signed by a vast majority of the electors of this country, and the voice of the people «ff^ P *° SSed be , ieard and given effect to, .not only by the National Cabinet, but by Parliament itself and we further say that at the next election not only these 306,826, but many thousand more votes added to tham, will be 'Az 6 direcliM v thh THE VOICE OF THE DEMOCRACY. «. • x^mi' 00 further asks that Parliament will, at the next general electinf n® °P p ° rtunit y for the voice tf peopie to be expressed on the three issues named, as prayed for by this democratic petition. We have inc Wl +* re Present- . too democratic views of the INeWl NeW Z< ? ,and ' but speak- !?£;■ \?x^7 e na . ma of those who have signed this petition, we clearly and dis Petition rep d rt innVA j voice of tho democracy far more adequately, far more fully and Sifi re «ffr te,y - ,l " ul oth°r to v6u w as ° 7or been presented toS, nn ?l, aV £-?V eed > therefore, *5? att ! tude the people tS the minority of the elecioritv of ti!« P o^ loll represents a maJ y of tho peoplo of this country. STATE OWNERSHIP. "" ou ld also like to add that we are at one with tho Prime Minister in his Jgire for a full and definite solution of ' HO. question. Notwithstanding our' nJu carr ? on OUl ' own business in ! re»d^ W + n Way ' under iho 1;nv > we aro, t0 accept fetato ownership, bemw 8U xv an instit ution would still i P"*»rve the rights and liberties of the I W*26 m regard to their use of alco- i i ors -' and as a majority of tho ' ofW*"" 8 desire to have an opportunity • t;V« pres ?! n s themselves on this quesDotitirtn 5 have so desired by this 'Poll;' ben !t becomes the cfutv t.f , ariiamemt— and I submit it is obliga- ' Rqttosb rliament ~ to accede to the' r "COMMERCIAL CANNIBALISM."' | e r° is another point I would like ibo+k t It niight well be asked, seeNew Zealand soldiers and New people have proved themselves

sober and efficient—for it is by tho valorous deeds of our soldiers and tho efficiency of our people in productiveness that they must be judged—why has this agitation been engendered at the present juncture? The Probititionists havo attracted some business men. who were tempted by the statement of Prohibitionists, that money spenT in the legitimate business which we carry on, and by which we meet the requirements of tho public of New Zealand, would bo diverted to other channels, and theso channels constitute such businesses as aro largely controlled and possessed by the very business men referred to. Thus it is plain that one class of business men aro seeking to destroy the businesses of another class of business men, in order that the destroyers may profit by the losses of their neighbours. This has boen adenuntely described as "commercial cannibalism." When the war was at its worst for the Allies, a large maiority of the people of this country said they desired national continuance, and affirmed by their votes that there should bo no variation in legislation as it existed in the blackest staeo of tho war. Tho prohibition people have not respected the will of the majority, and from their threatenings to yourselves, it is not likely that they will rcspoct tho verdict of any mninritv of the people, not even the nin<i"'fieont maiority represented by this petition, which wo present to yon to-day. It is. therefore, desirable in the interests of all classes, that- a fnir. ademmte, iust, and reasonable solution of th" fiuestion should bo made, and, as 1 havo already stated, those whom T represent are at ono with the Prim<* Minuter and Sir Josoph Ward in their desire to find such a solution. THE TAXATION ASPECT. I would like to observe that our national debt is now approximating two hundred millions sterling. It may tax the ingenuity of Finance Ministers to discover ways and means of providing an adequate income to meet not only tho interest on the national debt, but old age pensions and soldiers' pensions (which may probably aggregate a million a year for many years to come), and it is not suggested how these increasing burdens are to be made up by tho persons who would destroy a large and certain revenue. I believe the Finance Minister will hesitate to sacrijfioe a million and a half of voluntary taxation which accrues to him through the businesses, we reprosent, and impose that taxation upon the necessaries of life, which would still further increase the burdens of the people and render more grievous the ever-growing cost of living. In conclusion, I would say this: This petition, representing a vast majority of the electors of this country, must not only receive the serious consideration of the National Cabinet, but must influence the deliberations and decision of Parliament itself. Seeing that these •306,826 signatures are of . men and women comprising a majority of the electors, it is surely not too much to ask that what, they are praying for shall be conceded to them without undue delay. Wo do not anticipate, however, that an opportunity will be afforded to them—and we do not ask that it shall be—until the next general election. I have to thank the Prime Minister and Sir Joseph Ward for tho very patient and interested hearing they have given to my remarks, and for having received ub- in deputation. (Applause.) THE QUESTION OF MAJORITY. Mr Massey: I have not noticed in the speeches any suggestion with regard to the majority which you propose should decide the issues referred to in the petition. Have you made up your minds on that pointP Is it to be a e n ma i° r ity, or what do you proposer Mr Kernot: A bare majority on onr petition. Mr Massey: I want that point to b© quite clear. Are you asking for preferential voting? Mr Kernot: No, we are not. . Mr Dwyer: We say that there are two principles involved. These principles are liquor or no liquor. State ownership means continuance of the sale of liquor, apd there are therefore only two principles involved, although there are three issues. Therefore, wo say that an absolute bare majority should decide. k J . Mr Massey: You require a bare majority on any one of these guestionsP Mr Dwyer: A bare majority must carry any one issue. Mr Massey: A bare majority of those voting P Mr Dwyer: Yes. , Sir Joseph Ward: Does national prohibition mean -with compensation or without? A delegate: It means four and a half years' notice as the present law stands. MR MASSEY'S REPLY. Mr Massey: I do not know that I can say much to you in reply, excopti just to explain the position from the Government's point of view. This is not the first deputation we have had on this question, even during the present session, although tho sergsion is only a. few days old. A deputation waited tipon us from the business men, then another came along from the prohibitionists, and we have a third deputation, here to-day from the Trade. My secretary informed me this morning that applications havo como in from other sections asking to be heard in the saxne way. I do not know if they intend to approach the House or the Government by petition, or if they intend to come along and express their opinions on the proposals now prominently before the country. You will understand, therefore, that the proper position for the Government to take up is simply this: that until we, get .the whole of the petitions or opinions from those sections of the community which intend to express jthem to the Government, it would not be a right thing to define or outline the attitude of the Government on the question. That would be judging the proposals before they are before us. As soon as we get all views before us, wo will deal with the question. Let me say. by the way, that any further representations must come within a very few days. If there are any - further petitions they must come along certainly not later than next week, because the matter will then be referred to Cabinet. Wq have already acquired a lot of information on what is admittedly a very difficult question. I think we have all a good deal of experience in thinking upon the very difficult problems invoked in this question. I would just It x say— i nn " 1 am S*ad to notice that the speakers agreed with me—that I hope very sincerely that whatever happens to' be done—and something i must be dorio, come action certainly will ! be taken —will be final and satisfactory. (Applause.) THE SOLDIERS' VOTE. Something was said about soldiers. It ' is just as well to be perfectly cloar that whether the question is submitted to the electors at the timo of a general election, or by way of a referendum or plebiscite, the voto of tho soldiers will bo taken —it does not matter whether the soldiers are hero or on the "Western front, or on any of the fighting fronts. Our soldiere aro scattered all over tho fighting fronts, anu they have done credit to themselves and the Dominion on every ono of jthem. (Applause.) Wherever the soldiers are, and whatever tho occasion may be, whether it is a general election or an ordinary referendum—which I think would be now to New Zealand, although I am not quite clear—the soldiers/will have a vote. Tho Government havo quite made up thoir minds on that point. On other points they have not made up their minds, and it will be impossible for me to givo you a definite opinion to-day as to what tho Government proposals will be. When the whole of the proposals have been submitted to us, then at the earliest possible moment, you will be informed, ami the public will bo informed, of the

logislation, or the nature of the legislation, that tho Government intends to introduce. (Applause.) SIR JOSEPH WIED'S REPLY. Sir Joseph Ward said he had listened to the three petitions, or rather the sections petitioning, with a good deal of interest. He desired to say, as the Prime Minister had said, that he thought the matter had to come up for settlement with a view to letting tho people of the country finally say whether they were going to have tho question of prohibition, continuance, or whatever it might be, settled, instead of being everlastingly dragged across tho front of what ho might call the public questions of the day. The country had some mighty dillicult problems to settle within the next few years, and tho work of settlement would have to he commenced within tho next year. Theso matters were vital to every interest in the country, and in his 'opinion every section of the community would have to recognise it. On this all-important question the introduction of a compensation clause, from his point of viewas a public man, was important, and ho understood that it had been generally assented to by the different sections of tho community who had been opposed to it before. ''Jt is one of the important elements that are going to come into this matter," Sir Joseph Ward said, "and in dealing with tlio lepresentations you have made, I for one am going to keep that issue in conr.cxion with this important matter clearly before me. (Applause). When we have gono into the whole matter in Cabinet, after the two other petitions aro received, the whole matter will roceive that consideration which tho Prime Minister has referred to, and you, gentlemen, will have opportunity of seeing what the proposals of the Government aro as soon as wo havo decided upon them. This is a very important and difficult question, requiring the fullest consideration as far as the Cabinet, the Parliament, and the people of the country are concerned." (Applause.) Mr Kernot, in thanking the leaders for the courtesy with which they had received the deputation and. for their utterances on the matter, said tho deputation fully recognised tho difficulties surrounding the question, and did not expect a definite answer that day. However, in face of the overwhelming evidence which had boon adduced that day, they did expect that finality would he reached, and they believed that tho petition which they had placed before the loaders would reach that finality. 26