HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Press, Volume LV, Issue 10132, 3 September 1898, Page 9

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Friday, September 2. MORNING SITTING. THE MAx- QUESTION. The debate on the motion that the map be inserted in "Hansard," and the amendment that the map be circulated with "Hausard," was continued alter the telegraph office closed at 2 a.m. At 2.25 a.m., a division was taken on the recommendation of the Reporting Debates Committee, that the map be inserted in "Hansard," which was negatived by 25 to 21. Several divisions were taken on the amendments proposed to Mr Seddon's amendment, but they were all negatived by the same numbers, 25 to 21. Mr CARSON moved an amendment, that other members have the privilege of inserting maps in "Hansard," provided that the Speaker considers that they are necessary for the elucidation of speeches. Mr SEDDON said that he had no objection to the proposal, but pointed out that it should be moved as a separate motion. This was negativ ed by 25 to 21. Mr Seddon's,amendment was agreed to, and the House rose at' 4.35 a.m. Following is the division list on the question that Mr McKenzie's map be inserted in "Hansard": — Noes, 21—Messrs Bollard, Brown, Carson, Crowther, Fraser, Hemes, Hutchison, -. Lang, Lethbridge, Lewis, McGuire, McLean, Massey, Monk, Moore, Pirani, Rolleston, Captain Russell, Messrs Tanner, J. W. Thomson, and Wason. Ayes, 25—Messrs E. G. Allen, Cadman, Carncross, Carroll, Flatman, GiKedder, HallJones, Hogg, Houston, Kaihau, Lawry, McGowan, McKenzie, Meredith, Millar, Mills, Morrison, O'Meara, Parata, Pere, Seddon, Stevens, Symes, T. Thompson, and Ward. Pains—For: Messrs Slkjo, Hunter, Duthie, Scobie Mackenzie, Wright, Montgomery, Taylor, McNab, Smith, Buchanan, and Kelly. Against: Messrs Larnach, Holland, Field, J. McKenzie, Fisher, Wilson, Joyce, Graham, Steward, Duncan, and O'Regan. AFTEaNOON SITTING. The House met at 2.30 p.m. THE MAP QUESTION. The DEPUTY SPEAKER intimated that he took it that the resolution arrived at by the House respecting the publication of the map with "Hansard" applied only to the map produced by the Hon. Mr M'Kenzie, and he had therefore instructed " Hansard" supervisor not to publish the maps of Bushy Park and Hororata Estates, produced in the debate by members. WELLINGTON.LYTTELTON STEAM .... ... .—■■-.•--.•■> BBRV i ea .--..-.;..-.— r ; The Wellington-Lyttelton Steam Service Committee reported in favour of a faster and more punctual service between, the two places, and the alteration of the railway time-table iv order to fit in with the arrival of steamers. Mr SEDDON moved that the consideration of the report be taken as Government business on Thursday. This was agreed to. ORDER OF BUSINESS. Mr SEDDON, in reply to questions asked without notice, said he intended giving the House an opportunity to deal with local Bills, and that the Accident Insurance Bill would be in the hands of members next day. In asking that the questions on the Order Paper be postponed, Mr SEDDON regretted to say that the Minister of Lands, owing to illness, was unable to be in his place, and his medical attendant considered that he must remain in bed for some little time. QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE. Captain RUSSELL moved that a breach of privilege had been, committed by Mr Seddon by the insertion in " Hansard," No. 14, of a large mass of statistical tables which he had not read to the House. A lengthy discussion ensued, and ultimately the motion was ruled out of order. SECOND READING. The Slaughtering and Inspection Bill was read a second time pro forma. OLD ; AGE PENSIONS. Mr SEDDON moved the second reading of the Old Age Pensions Bill, and after referring to the undoubted necessity existing for the measure, dealt briefly with the systems of old age pensions in operation in Europe ;and America. He contended that it was impossible for the average workman with intermittent employment and a large family to support, to provide for old age. The competition in certain trades was so keen that in order to compete on fair terms employers had to employ young and strong men, and to treat the aged as so much .machinery. He did not blame employers for this, as unless they did it they would be unable to continue their business. Respecting the contention that the land should bear the cost of the pensions, he said the land owners would object that those engaged in industrial pursuits, and in receipt of permanent*incbmes, were betterable to pay for the pensions. If the money were paid by any specific class, the recipients of the pensions would be indebted to that particular class; but if it were paid from the consolidated revenue to whioh the pensioners had contributed, they would to a certain extent have made provision for themselves. At present he calculated there were 5000 persons in the colony who would be entitled to the pensions, and at £18 to each person this meant a total required for tensions of £90,000., There were at present 2000 people throughout the colony receiving charitable aid, and who would come under the pension scheme, and reduce the charitable aid vote by £10,000, which, deducted from the total amount required for pensions, left a total of £80,000, which would be the net initiative cost of the scheme proposed in the Bill. He estimated there would be 500 fresh claims yearly. It would be impossible, much as he would like it, to give a pension to all persons over the age of sixty-five, kut, after providing for necessitous oases, the question of distributing the residue amongst those less necessitous wonld be considered. He explained the differences in the present Bill as compared with the measure originally introduced, and urged the House to deal with it apart from party feeling. Captain RUSSELL complimented the Premier on having dealt with the subject in a philosophical spirit, and that he had refrained from importing party feeling into the discussion. All agreed that some provision should be made for old age and destitution, but the question was as to how it should be effected, in giving pensions to the aged without demanding from them some spirit of self-sacrifice in their earlier years, there would be a liability of striking at the national character and destroying selfreliance. He advocated the institution of a compulsory syatem of deferred annuities, whereby on the payment of 6d per week from twenty years of age to sixty-five a person on reaching that age would be entitled to a pension of £20 per annum for the remainder of his life.

The debate was interrupted by the 5.30 p.m. adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. OLD AGE PENSIONS. Captain RUSSELL continued h'S speech on the second reading of the Old Age Pensions Bill, and expressed the opinion that there would be more than 5000 applicants. As to the paying of pensions out of surpluses, he said a less prudent Government than the present might lie in office, and fail to show a surplus, and the payment of pensions would cease. Mr MORRISONsaid that though logically every man and woman, whether in possessiou of means or not, should, on attaining the age of sixty-five receive a pension, it was a qaestion of expediency whether this could be done. He pointed out that the superannuation schemes of friendly societies had proved a failure, and the English Post Office annuities had also failed to appeal to the persons for whom they were intended. It was simply absurd to say that the old age pensions should be left to the friendly societies. Mr ROLLESTON said the subject did not this session appear to excite the same sympathy as it did last year. His idea of an old age pension scheme differed from those in the Bill. The principles which should be embodied in a peusion scheme were to help those who helped themselves, or showed a desire to do so ; to encourage voluntary insurance through the friendly societies or otherwise, and to deal with the pensions in connection with the question of charitable aid. The proposals of the Bill would not encourage the population to secure a competence in their old age, but would demoralise the community and would be unjust to the industrious taxpayer. Mr STEVENS warmly supported the Bill. Mr CARNCROSS said he was thoroughly and sincerely in favour of Old Age Pensions, but the Bill simply provided for the distribution of charitable aid under a more favourable name. The provisions of the measure should apply genet ally, in order to remove the stigma of charitable aid from the recipients of pensions. Mr DUTHIE said that the contention that the aged persons in the colony had an equitable claim on the colony was a false suggestion, and there was no sound basis for the proposals of the Bill. . The declaration ot the Bill that the claim for a pension could be set aside clearly showed that no equitable claim existed on the part of the pensioners against the colony.* Mr JOHN HUTCHESON recognised that the BiH was a crude, but it was au honest attempt to deal with the subject. He regretted that the Premier had not had prepared an approximately correct table, showing to what extent the present system of charitable aid would be relieved by the institution of an old age pension scheme. Mr GILFEDDER supported the Bill, and said it would be an insult to offer the pension to persons in an opulent position. ■ x Mr TANNER contended that the scheme should apply universally. Mr KELLY objected to the pensions being paid out of indirect taxation. Mr HOGG warmly supported the Bill. On the motion of Mr LETHBRIDGE the debate was adjourned. The House rose at 12.10 a.m.