HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Press, Volume LIV, Issue 9880, 10 November 1897, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

TUE3DAY, November 9. AFTERNOON SITTING. The House met at 2.30. NATIVE LAND LAWS. Mr CARROLL moved—" That a Select Committee, consisting of ten members be appointed, to which shall be referred the Native Land Laws Amendment Bill, the Committee to consist of Messrs R. McKcnzie, Carson, Duncan, Graham, Monk, Morrison, Sligo, J. W. Thomson, Pere and the mover." Mr MONTGOMERY (for Mr Pirani) moved to strike out the name of Mr R. MeKenzie and substitute Mr J. W. Kelly's name. The amendment was lost on the voices. Mr ROLLKSTON moved to strike off Mr Wi Pere's name and substitute Mr Pirani's. After another long discussion the amendment was lost on the voices, and the original motion carried. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Taylor, whether the Government was prepared to reconsider the recent increase in telephone charges and to return to.the old scale of charges, Mr SEDDON said there was no telephone system at present extant which was so cheap as that of New Zealand, and even at present charges there was no profit to the Government. The telephone service was a good one at the lowest possible rates. Replying to Mr O'Regan, whether the Government would favourably consider the advisableness of assisting settlers in remote districts to obtain the services of resident medical men, Mr SEDDON said that this opened up a very large qnestion, and his sympathies were with it, but the Government would have to ascertain what the cost would be and if a scheme could be worked through the Friendly Societies. A number of other questions were answered. THE NATIVE LAND LAWS COMMITTEE. Mr SEDDON gave notice to move that Mr Parata's name be inserted on the Native L,and Laws Committee instead of Mr Wi Pere's. The House rose at 5.30 p.m. EVENING SITTING.] The House resumed at 7.30. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The House went into Committee of Supply for the further consideration of the Estimates. Colonial Secretary's Department —£400, salary of the member of the Executive Council, representing the Maori race. Captain RUSSELL asked Mr Seddon how he justified this vote, seeing that Mr Carroll was now representing a European constituency. Mr SEDDON said the law was very clear on the subject. The Act of 1874 provided there could be ten members of the Executive Council, two being of the Native race, and Mr Carroll, having held that position, was entitled to the salary. Mr Carroll, as a member of the Executive, was entitled to hold the portfolio of Commissioner of Stamps, but it would be for the House to say whether it would vote this amount. ■ • :.

Mr ROLLESTON—What will happen i! we don't vote it ?

Mr SEDDON—Mr Carroll will be a member of the Executive without salary.

Mr ROLLESTON held that the vote was a wrong one, and he hoped Mr Seddon would give them the name of the Act under which he paid this £400. Mr MONTGOMERY held that Mr Carroll

illegally held the office of Commissioner of Stamps, because by statute only six Ministers were allowed. The reason why Mr Carroll was acting-Colonial Secretary was because he was not entitled to be Colonial Secretary. It was illegal, in his opinion, to appoint a member of the Executive representing the Native race to any of these Ministerial offices.

Mr ROLLESTON raised another point by calling attention to Mr Carroll's connection with Native lands, which he considered extremely wrong in the Native Minister. Mr SEDDON said Mr Rolleston should be more careful in his statements. Mr Carroll was not Native Minister, nor had he anything whatever to do with the administration of the Native Department. Aβ to his connection with Native lands, he

(Mr Carroil) waa simply trustee for certain Native lands, and he had suffered in mind and pocket by his trusteeship. He admitted that the Act- only provided for six paid Ministers, but if the House chose to vote £400 for the Minister representing the Native race there was nothing irregular in that. This salary had been voted for some years, "and they got good value for it. He might say Mr Carroll acted as adviser to him in Native matters, and he was a man whom the Natives themselves looked up to and respected. Sir ROBERT STOUT contended that there was no necessity to put the vote of £400 on the Estimates at all, as Mr Carroll, being a member of the Executive Council and a member of the Native race, his salary could be paid out of the Civil list. It was illegal, however, to appoint Mr Carroll a ! Minister.

Mr MONTGOMERY held there were seven Ministers instead of six, and that was con-

trary to law. Captain RUSSELL said the Act dearly provided that it should be a member representing a Maori constituency who held the seat in the Executive Council, and as Mr Carroll did not represent a Maori constituency he should not be allowed to draw the salary for representing the Maori race in the Executive Council. He thought they should strike this vote out and so decide, once for all, whether there should be six or seven Ministers. Mr SEDDON was satisfied that any member of the Executive Council could be asked to accept Cabinet rank, provided the House voted the salary. They were told by Sir Robert Stout that Mr Carroll could be paid a salary without coming to the House at all, and yet he (Mr Seddon) was attacked for giving the House an opportunity of considering the question. Mr ROLLESTON denied that he had made a personal attack on Mr Carroll, but he maintained that it was entirely inconsistent with the positions of Ministers to deal with questions that were dealt with departmentally. There was scarcely a department of Government that was not mixed up with Ministers. (Mr M'KENZIE "Name one' of them.") He would say Lands and Mines. The whole thing was a

perfect scandal. Mr SEDDON said several members of past Ministries were mixed up in certain transactions, but he would not say those were dishonourable transactions. Some of Mr Rolleston's past cplleaejuea were mixed up in mines and other concerns, but he would not say they were dishonourable'in doing ao. He deprecated those constant attacks on the present Ministry for beins: connected with Companies. If this sort of thing were allowed no Ministers would occupy the benches. Sir ROBERT STOUT said the point was why the law ehould be broken by having seven Ministers when the law allowed only six, and some of the present Ministers, when in opposition, voted for five Ministers. Mr J. M'KENZIE said he had voted for five Ministers before lie became one himaelf, and before he knew the work they had to do. With respect to Mr Rolleston's charge about Ministers being members of Compauie', he defied him or anybody else to point out one single instance where hie official duties came into conflict with his. position as a member of the Advisory Board " of the Colonial Distribution Company. . Mr SCOBDS Hoisted out

that no reply had been given to the charge that Ministers had broken the law in having seven Ministers instead of six, he also quoted from Hansard to show that Mr John M'Kenzie had actually moved an amendment on the Addresa-in-Reply when Sir Harry Atkinson was in offic? to the effect that five Ministers were sufficient, and yet the Minister for Lands now justified the Government in having seven, although it was contrary to law. Mr RICHARDSON said that if they had no rieht to make Mr Carroll a full Minister

they should put him off the benches altogether. After a lengthy discussion the vote was carried by 35 to 19.

Colonial Secretary's office £1615—Carried. Ministers' Secretaries, £650. Carried. Messengers and office keepers, £4159, Carried.

Electoral Department, £4050.

This vote elicited a lengthy discussion, which was not concluded when the Telegraph Office closed at eleven o'clock.