EVENING SITTING.

Press, Volume LII, Issue 9162, 20 July 1895, Page 8

EVENING SITTING.

The House resumed at 7.30 p. m. THE NO CONFIDENCE DEBATB. Mr DUrHIE said they had heard mem*. bers spoaking on all sorts of subjects ia tUifl debate, whereas the real question ws* ._. whether or not the Colonial Treasurer had---uttered true statements in London, and whether he had done anything to injure the colony whilst he was away. They had aleo heard from the four Ministers who had spoken loud charges that the Opposition had made damaging state* ments against tne colony. He challenged the Treasurer, if he had any charge to make, that he (Mr Duthie) had whilst'in London said or done anyihing to the detriment of the colony to make that statement openly in the House and he should be prepared to meet it. Hβ absolutely denied that he had ever done, anything of the kind. He went - Home on his own business, at bis own expense, and had no time to concern himself with the Colonial-Treasurer or his doings. Speaking of Captain Ruasell'* amendment, ho asserted that the report of the Treasurer** speech in the -British Australasian v?w correct, and he asked whether Mr Ward was prepared to deny that. There was no doUot whatever, no matter what the Colonial Treasurer meant, that he had distinctly led the British public to believe that the colony had three millions* :of unpledged securities. He referred to the reckless statements made m the debate by the Premier and the Minister for. Labour, and denied that Government securities were available for any emergency, a fact which the Government knew perfectly well, although they told the Housa the contrary. He deprecated strongly the Colonial Treasurer going to London and making reckless statements whioh his colleagues in the House had to defend knowing they were absolutely unfounded. Mr MASLIN regretted that Mr Ward's visit to the Old Country was so ill-timed and that so great a magnate aa Mr Dathie was in London .at the same time as the Treasurer. It was to the cicdit of the colony that it could send Home so .able » liuanuier aa the Colonial Treasurer, who had held bis own against the ablest financiers of the Old Country. Hβ regretted to hear the remarks made by Mr Saundera, who had - not objected to offensive rem&rka from the Opposition /benches, but found, such fault! with the Minister for Labourfor retaliating If the Colonial Treasurer's visit to England Uad been a failure there would have bee*.

ca r, jubilation on the part of the /j.jijosiiion. \jr IU/SSELL (Riccarto:i) opposed the y C iilnicnt, and said that, any menibera o[ fl <• I/'icial party whw supported it should . ]~,,,(;al au<i prepared to toilow the Oppo- ■ . J( ,,r At 'he same time he thought the !. jn j 3ier ß hal P'.nci , the beginning of the cj,aion brought the ii.tt.iick on themselves by ".pnjatically refusing to the Opposition anil U.i Mousa returns which they l>ail a 'jj.yt, ijv'it to obtain. H« was satisfied, jfiwcvtr, llia-t tiif actions of tho Coicuiiul TrW iircr in Lomion would bc.r thu c:«i?(-st MTU'Juy, and the Uovernmcnt l.»'-i nothing . 6 j| \o U*ar from >he anir.iiih'iciil. The (inroMti'Jii iiai] quite ciungeri thei. ,, tactics. »;.- WAUL) the Opposition 0 "i, vti.'i; member after nr-.-nber of the ii.ivexuinenl side to adVircbs the House w i hout. icplyinj,' to them, in order that he nil> l)t Uuow what he had to reply to. That, however, was on a p.u- wiih all the tactics us* , l ag^" ,st him bitice liis arrival fi om Ki(j!aiul When he bad finished his remarks tht-v would lind Opposition members risiii-,' to reply, when ha would have n0 chance of defending himself. That *»s iiot ffiir fi.-hting. He thought the House would agree with him in ttwvt sUtemen ». H« referred to the Opposition cliang'°g their tactics by admitting that three millions of sfcuritiea now exiated in j /m( jf)n which they formerly denied. He complained that the Opposition speakers lisul nut given him fair play in quoting from his speeches in Hamard, and he defended, a* n prudent tiling to do, the collection of the Jutiil tax before the due date, v course which was followed by former Treaiiirera, and vfts nothing unusual. Ho asserted that after tne speeches made by certain Oppooitiou meinbere in tho House some papera in },'ng!aml had eta* cd that the colony was on the verge of bankruptcy. Did the Opposition not recollect that when Sir tiarry Atkinson was Treasurer of the colony they wanted him co disclose certain information wiiiuh he refused to do in tho interests of the colony, and yet ever since tho present Ministry came into office the Opposition had fttiai-ked them for withholding inforraation which it was not prudent to disclose. He read a portion of a confidential letter from the Secretary of the Treasury previous to the collection of the land tax which, he said, warranted the Government in their action at that time. He said their position at tho time he referred to waa that Uiey had obligations to tho exteut of £8.55,850, and their available balance was £721,?63, so that there wa9 a deficit of £110,587, to makeup which tho land tax ltud to be collected before its duo date. They asked the House to consider what the position of the Government was at that time. He asserlni that very few people who knew him believed he would deliberately do what the Opposition accused him of doiug. He hoped the House would never sco him descend to the level which some Opposition epoakers adopted. Hβ asked the House to consider what the position was in October, 1893, when tho greufc Australian banking crisis occurred. The Government had in September, 1893, sent Home their seem Hies. On the 11th of July, in tho same year, the New Zealand Loan and Meicantilo Company suspended, and on 'ho 20th of June last tho House had to como to the re.icuo of another great institution, which it was necessary to asaist in the interest of the colony. The Government had sent Homo the securities of these institutions for the purpose of protecting those institutions themselves, and not for the purposes which the Opposition represented. Referring to the speech he made to the London Chain bor of Commerce, he said if he had been fully reported, it would have occupied twenty-five columns of the paper that had been so much quoted. Members had played continually on the word "unpledged." He quoted from statements made in tho Investors' Review by an •' Old New Zealandor," to the effect that e?ery wholesale houHo in the colony had gono to the wall, and that the colony was rapidly approachiuu ruin, and other statements to the same effect, one of which was that the present Ministry lived in a public-house in Wellington, so that, when the crash came, they could take their carpet-bags and clear out of the colony. It was statements of this kind Iμ bad to meet when he reached England, and he was now attacked because he had defended the colony from its tr&ducers. ;A statement made was that tea years ago . he (.Vγ Ward) was a telegraph operator; bat that statement was only ten years out, , am&« resigned hie position in the Telograpli Department twenty years ago, and he had never been ashamed of hie connection with that department. After quoting several other statements derogatory to tho colony, he said he had put tho position of the colony clearly and honestly before the , London Chamber of Commerce, and that was all he wished to do. He did the same thing before the Colonial Institute, bofore the House of Commons and other assemblies. He would ask Mr Duthie whether ho had taken the trouble to correct the missta.eetnents made respecting the investment of trust funds. He had said they had three millions of securities unpledged, and ho aiked the House whether they were not absolutely unpledged, so long as they had the orettit of the colony behind them. Most certainly they were, as the House would admit, Bo asserted that there was no Treasurer in the colony that could ever use these securities without the consent of the departments in whose names they stood. He should not place himself in the hands of the Opposition, but in the hands of tho public, ] ana ho only wanted to bo judged fairly. Let them recollect that he knew the financial position of the colony, and he was alao dealing in Loudon with men who were >Uo perfectly well acquainted with our position. He asserted that be placed the position of the colony fairly before the Loudon people, and that waa all he claimed to have done. He had never said either in the House or in tjhe. Old Country that the trust funds of the colony shouid be available for the ordinary finance of the country, and he hurled back such a charge on those who made it. He fcftd never advocated, nor ever should advo- ■ c*te, the use of these securities for the ordinary revenue of the colony. Sir ROBERT STOUT said that, after the •peech they had just heard, he intended to •how the House the position in which the debate stood. The Treasurer had appealed to the House for sympathy, by complaining that the Opposition had not treated him jaitly iv refraining from speaking till after nil speech was made. The Premier had Agreed in the first place that the Agent-General's circular should be takeu first, and the question of the three , million securities at a later date. Why Was that arrangement not carried ont and why had the Treasurer not moved the House into Committee of Supply in the usual way? Instead of that, the Premier had spoken for Ro hoar in the most rambling way, he sup« pwed to perpetrate some trick on the House. ot (Sir Robfc. Stout) objected to this debate, wecause returns that »vere by law required to be laid on the table were not yec turniuhed to the House. There waa one return of securities, which the Government had for two months in their possession, and they oared not produce it; for, if they «W co, it would be seen that the ipeech they bad just heard was ttoat inaccurate and misleading. Hβ had eat in several Parliaments, and he had never knnwn such a servile Parliament as the present one, that allowed the Premier o t the colony to wiliuliy break the law as ha Was constantly doing. They were told by the Premier in his usual style, that he took the responsibility for what he did in this teapecb. Referring to Mr Ward's speech, he said there waa a complete change in the tone of that speech from the former one delivered by Mr Ward, and it was totally different from that delivered by Mr Reeves the previous night. He asked whether the reports in the Britisn Australasian were correct or not, and did Mr Ward see the printed report before it was published. (Mr WARD— "Who told you. that?") Hβ asked Mr Ward whether he had seen it or not. But they caw the Treasurer was silent. Hβ (Sir Eobert Stout) asserted that hundreds of oopiea of that paper were scattered all over the colony, paid for by the colony with money contributed by the colonial Treasury. « the members searched through the returns of lest year they would find that only a million and a quarter of securities Were sent Home, not two millions. If the fetnrn he had asked for were furnished, which the Government had for two months past, the House would see that the β^temeate made were falao statements. xne Home was asked to discuss finance, yet they were denied the returns, without which they could not discuss finance ; and this was *hatthe Parlimene of New Zealand had •ome to. The charge against the Treasurer

was that he aiid that the srcjri:ie3 could be use;] for paying intnreAt on our debt, ivt.3 this statement true ? an 1 n it was not i truo, ehould not the House demand the j truth whether or not the Treasurer j had said theso trust funds could be used for the payment of our interest iv October. Some members of the House would probably have to go before their constituent* in the receas, and acknotvleiigo that they were wrong morally in couponing the Treasurer's statements; b-jl J that, party hai risen abnve all that, and j they hrtn supported their pnr>,y. He (Sjir ! Robert .Stout) h.vi been accused of saying j last year there waa no cvsii available, bu*. it I Wd3 the Premier who had stated that, not, himself. It we.3 tiie Pcomi-.r who Wis the j t-.aducur of the colony. He quoted j from tho Prom'.fci-'a sperch m Huntard in proof of that statement. The Treasurer had also siid that if they had the money they would not ask for the money raised by the Lvnd Tax. He was gad to hear the Treasurer say that the arguments used by his three colleagues were ail wrong, and he had to put hia colleague, the Minister for Labour, in a quser position. Thet gentleman had stated that the Truit funds were the properly of her Majesty, and the Dt-parUneuts had uo special clai*-n on them at all. (Mr RISEVES—"I did not say that") Well, he should put it down to a treacherous memory on Mr'Keeves' part, but he waa glad to see that the Minister for Labour was now ashamed of the position he took up last nicfht. He (Sir Robert) contended that neither the Treasurer nor the Government had any power to touch these Trust funds at all, and he should like to know the legal authority that allowed them to be held ia London. That was a violation of the law, and wa3 auother instance of how this Government trampled on the law, aud made all statutes so much waste paper. These securities were not, pledgable even iv the event of a crisis, because they belonged to a Department, and the Government had no more right to take them than they had to go into a bauk and take sovereigns from its drawers. Could there be a more damaging thing for the Public Trust Ollioe or the Government Insurance funds than statements such as were made by the Treasurer? What right had the Treasurer to ask that the money of policyholdera should be used in the event of a crisis. If that was the case, it would destroy the very essence of the Government Insurance, which was to help widows and orphans. It was statements such as theso, made by three of tho Ministers, that damaged the credit of the colony. The rebuke the Treasurer had given his colleagues that night, in saying that these Trust Fuuds could not be touched by the Government was so severe that ho hoped the Premier and the Minister for Labour would not make such rash statements in future. He did not deny that Mr Ward bad done hid beat for the colony at Home, but he complained that he made statements that were inacenrate aud misleading, and thu justified the Opposition in pointing that out. All the amendment affirmed was that the Huuse regretted that the Treasurer had made these statements in London. Was there a member in the House, even including the Treasurer himself, who did not regret this? Why, therefore, should they not vote for the amendment ? They heard a good deal about the Liberal party, but that party had a high ideal, aud struggled for progressive reform. Above all things the party should strive to speak the truth. Mr SEDDON called the attention of the Liberal party to Sir Robert Stout's speech, and asked them whether the applause had come from the Liberal party or from the Tories. He said Sir Robert Stout was doing his best to wreck the Liberal party, aud was unconsciously playing into the hands of the Tories. The speech he had juet heard had pained him greatly, and he had thought he should never have to listen to such a speech from that hon. gentleman. He thought that after the able defence made by his colleague, the Colonial Treasurer, who hp.d refuted evety charge made against him, Captain Russell should have withdrawu his amendment. If he had done so he would have only acted in a manly way, and would be doing justice to the Treasurer. Was Sir Robert titout's conduct such as they might expect from one who had led in the Liberal party ? He had spoken of the widows and orphans dependent on the Government Insurance Department, but what had become of tbe thousands and thousands that had been spent by that Department while Sir Robert Stout was Premier in the expensive buildingsthat werethenerected? What about widows and orphans then ? He accused Sir Robert Stout of making au absolutely incorrect statement respecting Mr Beeves' statement last night, and hs denied that Mr Reeves had stated that the Trust Funds could be pledged for the ordinary purposes of the colony. What his colleague and himself had said was that, subject to the consent of the custodians, these securities could be used in the event of a crisis. Sir Robert Stout, with his great legal knowledge, should have proved how Mr Ward had broken tho law in sending these securities Home; instead of asking by what law they had been sent Home. Ho justified the action of the Government in taking steps to avert the crisis which passed over Australia. He would have thought that, after that action, those who made such attacks on the Govern- ! meat would have withdrawn their statements. Sir Robert Stont had stated that if the Treasurer admitted he made a- mistake in London, he would say no more about it, but if Mr Ward had done that he would be stating what was contrary to fact, and would be in fact condemning himself. Such an offer could not have come from a friend. He charged Sir Robert Stout with having made a misleading' statement to the Hquse, and said the hon. gentleman was responsible for the face that out of nineteen Liberals who represented the Auckland District only three were returned after a general election. He again laid stress on the fact that the Colonial Treasurer's speech, as reported in the British Atistralasian, had suffered in condensation, and he had expressly stated that the securities could only be used, in the event of a crisis, with the consent of the departments interested. He bad never known a case in which' charges which had so completely broken down were so constantly reiterated, and he asked whether these should be the reward oi the self-sacrifice and the noble work done for the colony by the Colonial Treasurer. Captain Russell's amendment was then put and lost by 43 to 20. The following is the division list :— Ayes (20) —Messrs Allen, Bell, Buchanan, Button, Crowther, Duthie, Earnshaw, Froser, Green, Heke, J. TV. Kelly, Lang, Mackenzie, Massey, Mitchelson. Dr. Newman, Captain Russell, Mr Saunders, Sir Robert Stout, Mr Te Ao. Noes (43) —Messrs Buick, Cadman, Camcross, Camel), Carroll, Duncan, Flatman, Graham, Guinness, Hall, Harris, Hogg, Houston, W. Hutchison, Joyce, W. Kelly, Larnach, Lawry. Mackintosh, Maslin, McGowan, McKenzie, J. Mackenzie, McLachlan, Mc Nab, Meredith, Millar, Mills, Montgomery, Morrison, O'Regan, Par&ta, Pere, Pinkerton, Pirani, Reeves,

G. W. Rus3cil. Seddon, E. M. Smith, Stevens, Steward, Tanner. Ward. Pairs—Ayes: Msssra G. J. Smith, G. Hutchison, Wilson, McGuirs. Noes : Messrs Collins, Buddo. Willis, Thouv.ioan. The House rose at 1.10 a.m.