EVENING SITTING.

Press, Volume LII, Issue 9156, 13 July 1895, Page 9

EVENING SITTING.

The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. THE AGENT GENERAL'S CIRCULAR. Mr WARD moved —"That the circula issued to the public in London by th Agent'Gaurxa!, in vo-pect to the 3 per cent loan for £1.500,000 be laid beiore th House." He saui he proposed to lay befor tlie H'.tuse eonn~ infos tn.ition in connect'o; with a very important matter that had en a good ilea! cf attention bosh io an< out of tin.- Hons?. At the outset he said hi you'd rep!}* to the utteranci*? of sornf> lion members, vrhich toii'.'utiea accusation: against a gentleman holding a verj high and important pc-miou it the colony, S:r Wes thy Perceval tho Agent-tjeneral. Ttiose who had been it London knew better than he could tetl then that fcir Heathy Perceval wis held iv Lh< fste m by tome of thy most irn port ant financiers in London for his in tegrity, honourable dealing- and ability, A* to tiie sLa ciiieiits made ugainst himsei, (Mr Ward), he took them lor what thpy were wortn ; but, at the same time, Ik must say that it was extremely regret table that men occupying most impoitani positions in this colony should bo subjected to aspersion intended wholly aud solely tc injure their reputations. It had been alleged that the circular which the AgentGeneral placed before the British public was misleading and unreliable. Well, he would wai* until hon. members had had time to speak upon that circular, and then he would reply to any aspersions they might make concerning it. He was not going to confine himself particularly to the circular, but would refer to somo statements which had been made concerning the statement of his iv London as to the three million loan. At this Captain KUtfSELL objected to this subject being discussed that night, on the ground that tli*-re had been a distinct arrangement with the Premier that it should not be discussed. The SPKAKEIi said he did not know what arrangement had been made, but he had adouume.ni before him which embraced a very laige field, and he did not see that it mattered whether it had reference to £1,200,000 or £3,000,000. Captain RUtteELLi repeated that a distinct arrangement had beeu made that there should be in the House that day no discussion upon the utterances of the Colonial Treasurer before the London Chamber of Commerce. The PREMIER said that what he had stated was that as a matter of convenience it would be better to separate the two subjects. Mr SAUNDERS asked if he would be in order in moving the suspension of the Standing Orders, so as to permit the Colonial Treasurer to deal more fully with the subject upon which he was entering than he could possibly do in the time limit of half-an-hour. The PREMIER said that if the House concurred lie would move that the Standing Ordors be suspended to permit the Colonial Treasurer to address the House fully upon the mattor. After some further discussion, The SPEAKER ruled that it would not be in order for a motion to be made at that stage for the Standing Orders to be suspended. Mr WARD, in resuming his address, went on to refer to a statement he had made before the London Chamber of Com merce in reference to the decision of the Government to collect the Laud Tax at an earlier period last year than usual. He told them in London how it had been urged that the Government had decided upon this course because it was hard up for cash to meet interest falling due in October. He had told the London Chamber of Commerce that the actual facts were these." —-Instead of being hard up for cash at tbat time they had lying in London, and had atill some £3,000.000 worth of unpledged securities of iN"e>v Zealand, against whicn at any moment they not only could have raised the interest falling doe, but could have got twice and three times the amount necesuary to do so ; that some two millions of the securities were sent Horn j by himself previously to the financial crisis which swept over Australia, because he believed it necessary to bo on the safe side in London, and in order that their position should be rendered free from risk. He had added that if they had not collected the land tax as they had done in anticipation of the due date they would have had to issue Treasury Bills for the amount, and he believed tho anticipation of the collection of the Land Tax by a few months was pieferable to that course. He told the Loudon

Chamber of Commerce that at the time they had these securities in London the public account was not overdrawn. Was that statement of his t > the London Chamber of Commerce correct ? Well, he said most unequivocally that his statement was correct, and he would now show them that it was so. When he heard that this statement had been questioned in New Zealand he wired from Wellington to the Agent - General as follows ; — . --Wellington, 11th June, 1895. Was I correct in stating Chamber Commerce, London, some £3,000,000 pledgable securities available* should emergeucy require ? Immediate reply required." To which the AgentGeneral replied—" Your statement Cham ber Commerce substantially correct. When you spoke total amount over £2,900,000." Now, as some gentlemen would probably doubt what their Ageut-General had said he would toll them what those securities were which were available in Loudon at the time of which he spoko. These securities amounted to £3,077,215, made up as follows : — Consolidated stock deben-

tores, 1884, £1,306,100, guaranteed debentures £800,000, Wellington-Mana-watu Railway debentures £20,000, Oamaru Harbour Board debentures £33,400, remittance drafts to mature £390.000, cash in the public account £272,715, deposit weeipts £150,000, drafts in transit £105,000, making a total of £3,077,215. Now notwithstanding this fact, some persons in this colony had said that New Zealand was on the verge of bankruptcy, and a statement appeared in one of the English newspapers to the effect that New Zealand was utterly bankrupt »t that moment. It had also been implied that these securities had been used for the ordinary purposes in connection with the finances oi the colony. He, howover, distinctly asserted that these securities never Were used; they wore sent to London to be there in case of emergency for meeting a panic, should it arise, and, whatever °iight be said to the contrary, he Wrongly maintained that the whole of the securities to which he had alluded were sent to London solely for the purpose of maintaining the creo.it of the colony there. The necessity, however, for using these securities had never arisen, but notwithstanding this he regretted extremely that a stateWent had been disseminated broadcast in Locdoa that this colony collected the l**-d tax ia , anticipation of the due date because the country was on the verge of bankruptcy, and some of the people *no made these statements kuew very well that former Treasurers had been obliged, iv order to carry on the fiuauces of the colony, |o collect taxes ahead. It was one thing for their political opponents to make such Statements as these, but it was quite Mother thing for them as a Government to take upon their shoulders tbe great responsibilities which they had done last year, •*■"* order to prevent finaucial disaster to this colony in the great finan«{al crisis of that time. He trusted that those hon. gentlemen would never have to go through such a trying time. To •now the wisdom of the course the Government adopted in that financial crisis, Mr Ward went on to quote from the public records of Victoria. The revenue waa but after the crisis in «93 it had fallen to £6,959,228, a aecreasa of nearly £1.400,000. and in 1894 It had still further fallen to £6.716,814, a decrease of about £1,600,000. Such was tbeir loss in the public revenue alone, to say nothing of the loss of private individuals throughout the whole colony. Had it not W*u for the prompt action which the government of New Zealand took, it might have been our lot to have had such a terrible fall as was the fate of Victoria, jiut now that everything was safe, some ' ton. gentlemen could come there and accuse < toe Government of having improperly condieted the finance of the colony. But in « ytars to come, when the history of this 1 colony came to be written, and it became Wily known what this Government had ] none.—really done—for the benefit of the the people would look back with j •osuie upon the statements made by those j Who now so persistently stiove to discredit ' *°d injure the colony. P*ssi n g on, he referred ' ,vto a statement of Mr G. Hutchison, when '

speaking in tho Honse last year upon th« Advance*! te Sattlers Bill, to the effect that the whole of the three and a hali million* of the securities of the Government depart- : menta should be sent to London and put s upon the market, and that money should be thus obtained to use ia the finances of the s colony. Tbe hoo. gentleman now laughed s because those same securities to which he i had referred had actually been sent to London and lodged with our owu AgentGenera!, not for the purpose of converting them into money, but for the purpose J1 assisting to maintain the credit of the colony. Mr G. EUTCniSON—Read the speech. lon are misleatiin- „«*- House. Mr WARD said no would read the speech, and he then read to the House an ••retract from Hansard containing Mr Hutchisons (statement to which he i;ad alluded, i'hat lion, gentleman had actually said that It was impossible to get money at 3_ per cent., and the .enior member for We.tington said ie could not be got under 4 per cent. Captain Russell stated our loans could not be raised at more than 93_, whilst his hou. friend, Dr. Newm_i_. also eaid that money could not be obtained under 4 per cent., and that if they wanted to have cheap money they could only get it by restoring confidence, and that if they would drop some of their T?* 7 •= t**d "all this a ount of paper" _ v ieace wou dbe restored. Then Mr Buchanan on referring to the land tax last year, had said :—" We have got on the downward grade, and the time is not far distant when the financial disaster into which that side of the House invariably succeeds in landing the country will have to be faced by this side ol the House " Everyone of those hoo. gentlemen had predicted failure in auy attempt to raise money on the Loudon market, and the result had beeu that some of their statement-, having been JbUusardised and published had dove this culony much harm, it was not the Government side of the House, but the Opposition which had seriously damaged the credit of the country. Although he must uot say that they may not have been at the same time anxious to do what they believed to be in the best interests of the colony. It had beeu said that our loan at 3 per cent, did not compare with the Western Australian loan, but he contended that it was recognised in London that the fact of New Zealand having published at the same time a 3 per cent, loan, had the • Ifect generally of hardening ull colonial investments above the New Zealand rates in some of the best financial circles in Loudon. The success of the other colonial loans was entirely due to what they bad termed "Now Zealand's bold stroke." First, their political • opponents said a loan would not be a success, acd now that it was a success they trusted to the depreciation wmeh they had endeavoured to cause by making inadmissible comparisons. Mr Ward then went on to quote the statements by the leader of the Opposition, in which he said that gentleman n_ 1 almi ted last year that there was a plethora of capital, yet the success of the operations then proposed was doubtful. He referred to 93_ per cent, as the terms of the loan, and asserted that it was impossible to get money at 3_ per cent. Mr Ward strongly deprecated the action oi some hon. members of the House, who in order to damage the Government «.i the day attempted to discredit and injure the colony. The total amount of the loan was £1.500,000, and the colony paid nothing for underwriting. They really obtained for the loan £1,416,601 2s If members would deduct that from the total amount put on the market they would find that it left £83,398 18s, which represented the difference between the nominal amount of the loan and the cash proceeds. Now, he had provided for a sinking fund of Is per cent, per annum to the interest payable on the 3 per cent, stock in order to provide a sinking fund, which would be sufficient to meet the advance of £33,398 18s. It would be, therefore, seen that there was a difference of 5-6ths per cent, per annum in favour of a 3 per cent, loan subscribed at £94 8s 6d, as compared with a 3, per cent, loau issued at par. The saving effected upon tbe loan was equal to £4125 per annum, which at the rate of 3 per c.nt. would top the currency at compound interest of the loan amount in round numbers to £466,000 or if invested at 3£ per ceut. would produce £501,000. An operation which resulted in

such an enormous saving to the colony was one which any country, and more especially a young couutry as New Zealand, might justly feel proud of. It had been dissemi-n-t.d broadcast in London that the Government was collating the sinking fund and paying it into the ordinary revenue, and these were the sort of statements which he had to combat whilst in London. In conclusion the hon. gentleman strongly resented the imputations which had been hurled at the Agent-General of having pub lished misstatements in connection with the finances of the colony. He asserted that the Agent-General had stat> d what was absolutely correct, and he would go further

and say that instead of exaggerating the financial position of thecolonyhe had actually understated it by £,170,000, extending over five years, because he had shown the surplus "to be £178,000 less than he was really justified in stating. Hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House, supposing there was a surplus last year, wanted, actually wanted, to suit their purposes, to deduct last year's surplus from the surplus of the year, at the same time carefully overlooking the liabilities of each year. He regretted that his time was nearly up, and he must bring his speech to an abrupt con-

elusion. Sir ROBERT STOUT hoped whatever difference of opinion they had in politics thoy should not be charged with a desire to do the colony harm. He was pleased at Mr Ward's return, because they had uobody on the Government benches in the Treasurer's absence to give the Souse any information. He hoped Mr Ward would not take offence at what would be said that night. He (Sir Robert Stout) thought it would bave bsen more fitting on Mr Ward's part to have dealt with the statements made against the Agent-General, instead of raking up old speeches of members. Uo (Sir Robert Stout) still maintained, after the Treasurer's speech, that what Mr Ward told the London Chamber of Commerce was not true, and was not proved by the papers laid on the table by Mr Ward

last year. That return gave them the amount of securities in London, and said they were not pledged. There were not two and a quarter millions at that time in London. Where had Mr Ward got his authority from ? (Mr WARD—Perfeotly right.) He (Sir Robert) said it was perfectly wrong, and if Mr Ward did not know it, he was not fit to be the Colonial Treasurer. He (Sir Robert) maintained that Mr Ward's statement in London was the most damaging one ever made against the credit of the colony. It was contrary to the paper laid on the table of the House, and contrary to what every member of the House knew. Respecting tbe circular of the Agent-General, it was untrue and misleading in every paragraph. Sir Robert read portions of the circular, and said it stated the increase ' of the debt was £44,000 less than it actually was. Was their credit to depend on such misstatements as these ? Then as to the interest charged during the three years the Government had been in office, he held that those charges were increasing, instead of decreasing, as was attempted to be proved by the circular. And this was the circular that Mr Ward described as being of too modest a character! Another paragraph stated that £800,000 of 4 per cent, debentures were still in the possession of the Government. But he (Sir Robert) held that the statement was most untrue, as every penny of that £800,000 was spent years ago aud did not exist at all now. They were also told in the circular that over £15,000,000 of the New Zealand public debt was represented by Government railways which earn over 3 per cent, per annum on their costBut they were told last year by the official records that it was only £2 17s 9d per cent, and if they allowed £57,000 for the carriage of mails they would then only get £2 18s per cent., not over 3 per cent, as stated in this untrue circular. They were further told they had not raised a loan for some time, but he asserted that by the conversion of loans here, there and everywhere they had been borrowing money. They should state the whole truth in London, and nothing but the truth. They had no justification for bolstering up the colony in the way the Agent-General bad done. The securities they really had in London did not amount to two and a half millions, and were not three millions as the Treasurer stated, Why did the

Treasurer not tell the pwple in London what he told tha House last year, namely, that if the colony had money the Government would not be takinc the course they were doing with respect to the land tax! The Premier also had stated it was necessary to pass this Land Tax Bill in order to maintain our creak. He (Sir Robert Stout) asked the House to read these statements on the Land Tax Bill, and also tiie pipers laid on tho table last year, and they would then -*<-- *';M the statements made in London i ac Treasurer did not agree with tho.e m__e in the House last session. Hia opinion was that a blow had besa s rack at tha credit of the colony, from the eIT-ct of which the creaiest care would be ieqaired v* extricate v. Mr REEVES said there was a time when tne many ioy_l friends of Sir Robert Stout would have refused to believe that that bon. gentleman would have resumed his seat amidst the applause of the Lory party after making an attack on the Liberal Ministry Sir Robert -Stout had asked them to give credit to one another But how did his speech compare with < tiat when he charged his colleague, the Colonial Treasurer, with deliberate untrutbs? He reminded the House that the return Mr Ward from was laid on the table to July.'.o.'i, and not 1894, as Sir R bert S'-ont stai.i. Why, there was £917,750 of securities less than the Treasurer had included in the return. Sit Robert Stout had stated that £800,000 of tbe debentures bad all gone, but tne fact was that £476,000 of these were free, and were held by the Government, whilst the remaining £324.000 were held by the Po3t Otfico Department and could be used in th.* event of a great national crisis, such as that alluded to by Mr Ward. Respecting the raising of the loan, the numkx-r of people applying for it waa only thirty, and consisted of astu'e brokers and financial experts, every one of whom knew well what he was doing. He referred at some length to the railways, and said thenet returns of the railways were 5.068 The Government did only what any private Company would do respecting the railways. Sir Robert Stout had criticised tbe conversion of the loans, but tbere was scarcely a ingle Loin Act that did not provide for conversion. He had followed Sir Robert Stout over the chief points of his venomous aitacK. Oue would imagine from Sir Robert Stout's tone that in welcoming the Treasurer I back to the colony they were welcoming a notorious criminal instead of a statesman who had done well tor his country. After going round the world, and serving tbe coiouy in such a special degree, as was recognised by impartial people throughout the colony, Mr Ward came back to the House, an< lound his bitterest opp meuts, not in the money lenders, but in tne members of the House, who should have behaved in a very different manner. Mr G. HUTCHISON thought the two Ministers who had spukeu had not treated <ms important subject in such a serious manner as might be expected from them. They had treated the subject with flippancy aud used no argument. The Colonial Treasurer had bluffed the House, as he bad bluffed the country. It was quite a matter of speculation amo.igst the Government -supporters as to what line the Treasurer would take over his speech to the Loudon Chamber of Commerce. But there wae another audience to be considered, namely, tbe people of the colony, and also the people of London when they knew the real facts of the case, li those facts were clearly known, aud that the Treasurer was prepared to pledge the Trust funds of the colony, would he bave been trusted by the London financiers? Certainly not. Respecting the Agent-General's circular, they should consider what it conveyed to the people of England who were ready to subscribe their money for this loan. He held that none of the thirty money-lenders would have rent their money if they were aware of the real position. Coming to the statement of the Treasurer before the London Chamber of Commerce, he had fouud in tbe report of that meeting that the Chairman said he would tell the Chamber only what was the truth. On that occasion Mr Ward had made several mistakes of a somewhat trifling character, such as saying that the last loan was raised in 1-88 instead of 1837. But a far more serious statement was made by the Treasurer when he said the colony had three millions unpledged securities. Could any man say these securities were unpledged when ihey belonged to the Insurance Department, the Post Office, and tbe Public Trustee? Tuat was not only untrue but was diametrically opp.sed to the truth. What authority had the Public Trustee for sending the securities to London ? The highest amount sent was by the Post Ofiice Department, of which the Treasurer should be the guardian, and he should uot send the money of widows and children to Loudon. Mr Ward had accused him ol advocating a similar scheme last year ; but what he had stated was that the securities of these great depaitments should be invested in the London market, and .be proceeds advanced to settlers out here ou the security of their land. He had held there was no necessity for going to England for a loan, but their securities might be realised in London and advanced to the settlers. But tuat had no bearing whatever on the veracity of the Colonial Treasurer or the object he had in misleading people at Home, the crucial point was .whether Mr Ward was justified in telling the people in England that these securities were unpledged. For what purpose were these securities sent to London ? Was it ever seriously contemplated to make advances against them ? Why, for less than that men were before now in penal servitude. He admitted that capitalists were kind people, but they were quick to resent deception, and if Mr Ward were to return to London instead of addressing the London Chamber of Commerce he wonld address the unemployed on Tower Hill. He held that this action of the Treasurer would do more than anything else to lead to the downfall of the Ministry. Mr MONTGOMERY had read the AgentGeneral's circular, and was bound to say he had put the salient facts very clearly in- , dead. As it was h s dnty to do, he bad pnt the case in the moat favourable light. He held that any Agent-General was justified j in putting the fiuancial position distinctly | {

betore the people at Home. He defended the circular at some length, and said the statistics respecting New Zealand quoted in the circular were statements of which any Englishman might be proud. He did not consider any serious criticism had been made of the circular. Dr. NEWMAN thought Mr Ward was, up to that afternoon, not sure what line he would tike with the House. For half an hour he had bluffed the House without giving them any information at all. Mr Montgomery had spoken with enthusiasm of the Agent-General's circular, but he (Dr. Newman) had never fou_id so many errors m a small space as in that circular. He quoted several parts of the circular, and said they were deliberately incorrect, although the Treasurer had stamped them with his approval. They were told in tbe circular also that the net debt of the colony had scarcely increased at all, whereas it had increased by over four millions of money. It was also misleading to say that tho colony had £800,000 debentures, for £324,000 of this belonged to one of the public departments, and, therefore, that statement was incorrect. They were also told by the Treasurer that he had three millions of money at Home, but he bad actually to telegraph to the Agent-General to ascertain whether the money was there or not. Mr McLACBLAN congratulated the Colonial Treasurer on his presence that night, and on his efforts at Home. He had heard on all sides that Mr Ward's mission Home had been eminently successful. His (Mr McLachlan's) opinion was that two great luminaries in the House had tried their best to shake the Colonial Treasurer's statement, but they had absolutely failed to do so. He waa pleased to see that the Board which lent this money under the Act were men of no I " colour." They had displeased men on both sides of the House by not lending money at all. Mr BUCHANAN had been in hopes that Mr Ward would have been able to purge the name of New Zealand from the fonl blot put on it by this circular from the AgentGeneral; but he waa sorry to say he utterly failed to do so. Mr Buchanan criticised the circular at length, and said it was as distinctly misleading as anything could be. Capu RUSSELL said he fhould speak very briefly, as there was nothing for him to reply to. There could be no doubt about the fact that the Colonial Treasurer had not touched the real question at issue. He had not attempted to show that tha Agent-

Ganera-'s statement was true. The result of every apeeeh made by the Treasurer for the last two or three years was that after he had finished the Honse knew nothing at aIL What had he told them that night 1 Simply nothiug at all. They were also told by the Treasurer what every Minister t_ow told them, thai they were unpatriotic if they discussed the fiuancial position in a different style from the Minister's. Tney were also luid that the Opposition only wanted to get back to office, which was a totally unwarranted statement, as the Opposition, althougn they thought t he Government anutt.ily baa one, hadno desire whateverfor o_fi_e at present, believing, as they did, that, t..e Aliniscers' time would shortly come and that the colony would not submit much monger to be hookwinked by these halftruths that were continually uttered by the Ministers. He referred to the hysterical manner in which the Treasurer had addressed the Hou*-e that night, instead of viewing the position calmly and dispassionately, as a Mmister _u__id endeavour to do. He would ask whether tney were right in discussing the Treasurer's speech to the London Chamber of Commerce wneu they k v nothiug about it. Tne Premier himseu ii-d stated in the Honse a few days ago that his colleague, the Treasurer, should not be judged by a newspaper report, evidently inferring that Mr Ward's speech to the Chamber of Commerce was misrepresented. Captain Russell referred to tbe misleading character of tho Ageut-General's circular. He held that it would do the colony the greatest injury. The Colonial Treasurer also never made a budget speech to the House without deceiving himseliaswell as the House; for he dealt largely with figures which he really did not understand. Tney were told in the circular that our exports were steadily increasing, when, as a matter of fact, they had from one cause or another, been decreasing for the last five years, aud only slightly increased last year. Tnis was anotuer sample of the bogus circular issued by the Agent-General. But surely it would have beeu more honest to have quoted the statistics correctly. Captain Russell quoted from Mr Ward's speech last session, in which he said the UovernmenC had not and should not have sufficient money in Englaud to meet the interest payable on the 31st October. But how could that accord with his statement in April last that the colony had three mil ions of securities totally unpledged ? He (Captain Russell) thought ne had conclusively shown that the Colouial I'reasurer had made two opposite statements to the House and to the Loudon Chamber of Commerce, and he woul > leave the Treasurer to say which statement was correct. He moved as au amendment—" That the AgentGeneral's circular be referred to the Puolic Accounts Committee for investigation and report." He thought the Government could not refuse that amendment, as that Committee was one set up by the Government itself. Mr SEDDON said he could not accept the amendment, as he could only regard it as a vote of censure on the Colonial Treasurer and the Government. The Opposition were trying to do now what they had been doing for years past, namely, trying to destroy the credit of the co ony. They had done the same thing in 1879 as they were doing now. lie deprecated the attacks made on the Agent-General, who was a thoroughly honourable man, and he asserted that there was not one word in the circular that they could not get from public documents. Captain Russell cou d not, apparently, discern between securities and cash. He quite believed that that hon. gentleman was not able to discuss finance. He held that the Colonial Treasurer, in collecting the land tax before it was due was only following the course adopted by other Treasurers. The total amonut of the land fax was £277,000, and of this the whole, except £14,000, was paid by the owners without demur. Who were the guarantors of the Post Office and Public : i'ruat Office securities but the colony itself ? The Government were, thetefore, right in using them if necessary. They were told *>ha_- the Colonial Treasurer was bluffing the House, but he condemned the Opposition for referring to his colleague's stateneuts as absolutely incorrect, misleading, Sec. He defended the Treasurer from tbe ittacks made on him in the debate, and laid one would think that the gentlemen vho attended the meeting of the London .hambar of Commerce were fourth form The fact was those gentlemen were! jorn financial experts and brokers, md were not so easily misled by . ihe Treasurer as Captain Russell reprelented. They well understood what was old them regarding the securities. It had >een attempted to be shown that when &r Ward collected the land tax there were tot £3,000,000 securities in London; but, to asked, who knew i ter than the Coloual Treasurer hew mu_ securities had been ent Home between March and {September? le held that the securities were available .s money, if it were required, as the Agent Jeneral was advised of their being sent iome. The Government were responsible or the figures being given to tbe AgentJeneral, and it was, therefore, unfair to ,ttack that gentleman, and accuse him of leceiving the British public. Mr DUTHIE said the Opposition were hereto defend the good name of the colony, nd to repudiate the incorrect and misleadng statements sent out by the AgentJeneral ot the colony, who is responsible to 'arliainent for his actions. i The Treasurer tad admitted the correctness of the report f the speech he made to the Chamber of Commerce, and that is what they had to leal with. He (Mr Duthie) felt that the louse would not for a moment admit that hey had three million securities at hand, s they were the property! of the various iepartments, and could not in any way be teld to be unpledged, as declared by the ?reasurer. He thought the Agent-General's ircular so exaggerated that scarcely one lause of it would bear examination. Mr ALLEN denied that the Opposition fished to discredit the Post Office Departlent and Insurance Department, and the 'üblic Trust Department. Tbe reaon this debate was being caried on was to defend those )epartments. There could be no ocber inerpretation put on the Treasurer's words a the Chamber of Commerce. Then, if the ! colony were not able to pay its interest the Government could -take those unpledged securities. It would be a bad day for New Zealand if the savings of the people. Post and Public Trust Office, could be taken in this manner. Mr G. J. SMITH was somewhat at a disadvantage, because he understood that the preseut debate was to be taken in two sections. He held that when they went on the London market they should Cell the whole truth, and nothing bnt the troth. If the figures supplied to the Agent-General were correct and were taken from public documents then the Government should have no objection to refer the circular to the Public Accounts Committee. Mi MACINTOSH said the Colonial Treasurer's statements: were correct, and it was only natural that he would put the best face on matters iv London. He considered Mr Ward should be congratulated on what he had done in the Old Country. Whatever might be said in the House, there was only one icehng in the country — that the Treasurer had accomplished his mission well. Mr FLATMAN luought nothing had been proved against the Colonial Treasurer. He accused the Opposition of insincerity in this matter. Mr BELL said the Treasurer had told the people in London that these securities were unpledged which, if it meant anything, meant that he could use them if he liked. Mr Ward had said that at the time of the collection of the land tax, there were three million of securities in London, but there were not. (Mr WARD—They wcr* .hen). Why did he refuse to allow the ma.ter to go to the Public Accounts Committee, _o that he could prove the Opposition to be incorrect. He regarded the Agent-General's circul-x as a bogus prospectus issued by th- Colonial Treasurer in LondonHe i-gretted that the Premier made a reckless mis-statement, which was received by his supporters with laughter. He specially referred to the arraugement which had been deliberately broken by the Premier that night, with respect to the conduct of the debate. Mr J. W. KELLY moved the adjournment of the debate. Lost by 34 to 23. Left sitting at 2 a.m.