HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Press, Volume L, Issue 8594, 22 September 1893, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Thursday, September 21. RAILWAY BILL. After the Telegraph Office closed, Clause 6 of the Railways Bill was passed by 21 to 14. Clause 9—Minister to determinesituations for stations, _c. Mr ROLLESTON strongly condemned this clause, which he regarded one of the worst in the Bill, and would lead to the worst forma of political corruption. The clause was retained by 22 to 12.

Clause 10—Showing how financial proposals of Commissioners are to be dealt with, was passed by 20 to 11. Clause 12, which prevents the Commissioners from increasing the salary of any officer in receipt of more that £300 per annum, or appointing or promoting any person to office the salary of which is more than £300, without the sanction of an Order in Couucil, was passed by 23 to 11. Clause 13—How leave to be granted was added to the Bill by 23 to 11.

The remaining clause was agreed to without discussion.

Mr SEDDON moved a new clause providing that in future the Public Works Department shall have control of all moneys voted by the House for works on open lines. Mr ROLLESTON said this new clause showed how utterly deceptive the Bill was. It simply gave the whole control into the hands of the Minister.

Mr SEDDON said he did not care very much whether the clause passed or not. The clause was added to the Bill by 23 to 11.

Mr THOS. MACKENZIE moved a new clause making the Railway refreshment rooms subject to the provisions of the Licensing Act, 188 L Mr SEDDON said that would mean a considerable reduction in the railway revenue, and asked the hon. member not to press the clause. The CHAIRMAN ruled the clause out of order because it was a question of appropriation. Mr WILSON moved a new clause providing that at the beginning of each session a Parliamentary Committee be set up to consider all matters appertaining to the railways that are brought before the Honse.

Mr SEDDON said this question should be brought on as a sessional order on the Statute Book.

Messrs BRUCE and EARNSHAW urged tbat some consideration should be given tc the proposal ef the hon. member for Palmers ton-

The clause was negatived by 19 to 11. Mr THOMAS THOMPSON moved a new clause, the object of which was to secure a trial of Mr Vaile's system on a section of the New Zealand railways.

Lost by 23 to 11. Mr Cadman was the only Minister who voted with the ayes. Mr THOS. MACKENZIE moved another new clause bringing the railway refreshwent rooms under the Licensing Act, aud providing that the license fees he paid to the Commissioners.

Lost by 21 to 13. The Bill was then reported with slight amendments, which were agreed to. In the absence of the Speaker Mr Guinness assumed the chair.

' Mr SEDDON moved that the Bill be read a third time.

Several members objected on the ground that this was new btuuness. but the

Acting-Speaker said that at this late stage of the session he thought he was justified in allowing the third reading to be taken forthwith. Mr SEDDON said he had no desire to press the question, seeing that the Speaker was not in his place, and he would leave himself in the hands of the House. He wished, however, to get on with the business as quickly as possible. After some discussion, Mr GUINNESS said as it was not the . general wish of members that the third '. reading be taken to-night, he could not ; allow Mr Seddoa to proceed with the i motion. He came to this decision oa a pre- ; eedent established by Sir Maurice O'Rerke. « The third reading was accordingly set j down for to-day. AX EXPLANATION*. Mr THOS. MACKENZIE desired to say with reference to the incident earlier in the ! evening that he had no intention to show ) disrespect to the Chairman of Committees. j The PREMIER said that after the handsome manner in which Mr Mackenzie had spoken he wished to move that the resoluJ tic-n carried earlier in the evening be f expunged from the journals of the House. ! This was agreed to on the voices, and the House rose at 5.50. Thursday, September 21. AFTERNOON SITTING. The House met at 2.50 p.m. PUBLIC WORKS STATEMENT. Mr SEDDON laid the Public Works Statement on the table, and said he hoped the House would agree to take it as read. Mr FISH asked when the House would be afforded an opportunity of considering the Statement. Mr SEDDON said an opportunity would be given at an early date. THE LICENSING BILL. A message was received from the Legislative Council to the effect that the Council insisted on its amendments in the Alcoholic Liquor Bill. Mr SEDDON moved that a Committee be appointed, consisting of Sir John Hal], Mr Guinness and the mover, to confer with the Council on the matter. Agreed to. QUESTIONS. Mr SEDDON stated that the Government did not propose to reply to questions until next day, owing to the late hour at which the House ro3e that morning. OCEAN BEACH DOMAIN ACT. Mr FISH resumed the debate on the motion for the committal of the Ocean Beach Public Domain Act Amendment Bill. He said he hoped the debate on the Bill j would be adjourned, in order to allow other ; local Bills to come on. Mr FERGUS advised Mr Pinkerton to \ accept Mr .fish's suggestion as it was evident, if that course were not agreed j upon, no other local Bills would have a j chance of consideration. j Mr BUCKLAND moved that the debate j be adjourned. Lost by 36 to 24. After further discussion, Mr SEDDON suggested that Mr Pinkerton should agree to the adjournment of the debate in order to allow other local Bills to be brought on. He promised to give the hon. gentleman facility for bringing nis Bill on again. Mr FISH protested against special facilities being given for the consideration of the Bill, He claimed to represent the feeling of the people of Dunediu on it more than either Mr Pinkerton or Mr Hutchison.

Mr PINKERTON would agree to the adjournment solely tor the purpose of giving other local Bills a chance. The motion for the adjournment of the debate was carried. LOCAL BILLS. The Newmarket Hall Amendment Bill and Auckland Hospital Reserves Bill were committed, read a third time and passed. The Riverton Harbour Board Empowering Bill waa further considered in Committee. After passing clause 2 progress was reported, the Premier undertaking to give j Mr Mackintosh another opportunity of bringing on the Bill. In reply to Mr Fergus, ~,. ...... { The SPEAKER said th6re was a pre- ] cedent for the Government taking up a local Bill and passing it through the House, but ' that did not make it a public Bill. ' The debate was interrupted by the 5.30 ; adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. RAILWAY BILL. Mr SEDDON moved— , ' That the Government Railways Act Amendment Bill be re-committed, for the purpose of inserting a new clause to set at rest any doubt that may exist respecting extraordinary vacan- : cies on the Board of Commissioners, j He desired to thank the member ! for Waitotara for referring to this ' matter. It had been thought that the ! law as it stood would meet the case, but in i order to prevent any complications that ! might arise, he thought it his duty to con- ! suit the Law Officers on the subject. He therefore desired to recommit the Bill for the purpose he had named.

The motion for re-committal was agreed to.

Mr SEDDON then moved the following new clause—Upon, auy vacancy occurring in the office of Commissioner by effluxion of time, the Governor-in-Council may from time to time appoint any person to fill such vacancy, and this provision shall be made part of the sixth section of the said Act accordingly. Mr ROLLESTON thought this clause would give the Government very large powers, which they did nob possess under the present Act. it seemed to him that the course be had proposed, viz., to maintain the statu quo until the new Parliament met was the proper one, but he should nob discuss the wretched thing any further. The new clause was added to the Bill. On the motion that the Bill be read a third time,

Mr ROLLESTON said if the BUI became law, which he hoped it would not, it would be found bo contain the elements of confusion and trouble. Ministers had forced this Bill through the House. At three long sittings they did not even sit in their seats to hear the arguments against the Bill, but trusted to their supporters, who rushed in from the lobbies whenever they were required to vote. He ventured to think that, notwithstanding all that had been said about the Railway Commissioners, that three better public servants were never placed in responsible positions. Previous to their appointment the country from end to end rang with protests against political management ot the railways, bub for the last three years those men had not got fair play owing to the unfair misrepresentations and opposition of the present Premier. He had never heard such a speech as that delivered by the Premier on moving the second reading of this Bill He said it was nob very creditable that secret and silent charges which had been got up during the recess should have been brought up on the floor of the House against men of the highest integrity and character, who had managed the railways of the colony so successfully. . Such a line of conduct as that pursued by the Premier in this respect, was not creditable to party Government, and he hoped he should never hear a speech like that in the House «4gain, Mr WRIGHT referred to several charges made against the Commissioners by Mr Kelly, member for Invercargill- and stated they were incorrect. Mr FISH considered that the Bill had been passed, although there waa a majority of members against it. Several Government supporters had s_ated in the lobbies that they would vote for the second reading of the Bill and, vote against it in Committee. What had induced those hon. gentlemen to change their minds, would be for the House to consider, and for members themselves. He regarded this Bill as a most complete sham, but they had given the Minister for Railways complete control of the railways—a power which was most dangerous to put in .he hands of any one man. He expressed a fervent hope that the Council would reject the Bill, and allow the electors of the colony to consider the whole question. Mr BUCKLAND said there was no necessity whatever for the passing of this Act. He believed that many members, who voted for this Bill, would live to repent it. Mr J. W. KELLY contended that every word he stated on the second reading of this Bill was absolutely correct, according to the admission of the them-

selves. He was surprised to hear Mr Wright endeavour to justify the Commissioners from the charge of dealing unfairly with their employees which he had referred to. Messrs Buchanan, Moore, Earnshaw, T. Mackenzie, Dawson, McGuire, Fergus, Carncross and Guinness also spoke on the BilL

j Mr SEDDON said the House had listened ! for some time to a tirade of abuse from the \ other side of the House because the Government were endeavouring to deal with a very important question. There was no necessity on a large question of this kind to descend to personal abuse. He held that the majority in the House and in the country ■ thought the time had come when the property taken from the people should be restored to them; and, speaking for the • majority of the people in the colony, he asserted that they were determined the present state of things should not continue. He spoke on the whole question at some length, and denied that he had traduced the Railway Commissioners as alleged by so many members on the Opposition side of the . Houae. The motion for the third reading was j carried by 34 to 30. I Following i_ the division list:— Ayes (34). Messrs Cadman Messrs McKenzie, J. Carroll McLean Duncan Mills, C. H. Eamshaw O'Conor Fraser Palmer Guinness - Parata Hail-Jones Pinkerton Hogg Sandford Houston Seddon Hutchison,G. Shera Hutchison, Smith, E. M. -W. Smith, W. C. Joyce Tanner Kelly, J. " Taylor Kelly, W. Thompson,-. Lawry "Ward Mcintosh Willis McGowan Noes (30). Messrs Allen Messrs Mackenzie,T. Bruce Maguire Buchanan Meredith Buckland Mitchelson Buick Moore Dawson Dr. Newman Duthie Messrs Rhodes Fergus Richardson Fish Rolleston Fisher Russell Sir J. Hall ' Saunders Messrs. Hamlin Swan Harkness Valentine Lake Wilson Mackenzie, Wright M. J. S. I PAIRS. j Ayes. Noes. | Messrs Reeves Messrs Taipua ! Kapa Carncross Sir R. Stout Mills, Jas. j Mr FERGUS Baid th_t Kapa, one of the Maori members, was paired against his will by the Government whip, and that Kapa, after distinctly stating that he did not intend to vote on the Bill, had been paired with the member for Taieri. The SPEAKER said Kapa himself should make that statement. Mr CARROLL, on behalf of Kapa, said that Mr Fergus' statement was utterly groundless. The Bill then passed on the voices. COLONEL FOX'S REPORT. Mr SEDDON moved—"That the Volunteer year be extended till the last day of February in each year ; that the disbanding cf country corps which last year were efficient, and which disbanding has been recommended by Colonel Fox, be held over, and that tho selection of Martini-Henry | rifles be approved." He said be had placed the resolution on the Order Paper in order to enable members to discuss Colonel Fox's report. It had been said that he and other Ministers | were afraid of bringing this report before the House, but he thought no motion that he could bring before the notice of members could be more acceptable to the House or the country. , The Government considered it was necessary that they -should have an outside report on the defence of the colony, which had cost half a million of money. He held that no matter how they might differ from Colonel Fox's report they would all admit that it was a very able one and had put the position of defence affairs very fully before the colony. At the same time, the report was, perhaps, too exacting, which might be accounted for by the fact that he had recently arrived from the Old Country, where military efficiency was of such a high standard, and he expected too much. He referred to. the recommendations made by Colonel Fox and • the circumstances which led to his appointment. One of Colonel Fox's first recommendations was that our Volunteer force should be armed with Martini-Henry rifles, and to that the Government agreed, and they had therefore ordered 3000 rifles, the first 1000, of which were to be delivered in December, at a cost of £2 15s per rifle. By this transaction the Government have saved £500, and by that saving they had been enabled to increase the order. If the House agreed to their proposal the Government would have to arm i he whole of the forces some day iv the manner recommended by Colonel Fox. The next question was as respects country corps, and he thought Colonel Fox had been guided in this respect by financial reasons. He (Mr Seddon) did not, however, think the Volunteers in country districts should be debarred from the advantages they enjoyed for so many years. Government could maintain two thousand more than recommended by Colonel Fox. He was pleased also to state that the House had put the Government in a position to grant £2 10s per head capitation to efficient volunteers, and that capitation would be paid. The Government did not see their way to disband any efficient corps, saeing that the House had granted a vote of £14,000 for volunteer purposes this year. With respect to their forts and mines, he held that, before any changes were made, an opportunity should be afforded such men as Sir Wm. Jervois, Schaw, and other high authorities who took an interest in the matter, to see Colonel Fox's report. He j disapproved altogether of the increased expenditure in salaries that had been recommended. The Government had , also not yet decided to carry out ' the recommendation that six Sergeant Instructors should be imported; they they could not afford to get a Royal Engineer for the time at a very large salary when men in the colony were capable of doing the work. The recommendation that men who had gone from the Permanent j Artillery to the police force should be called j out for ten days a year was a very wise one j and would be given effect to. Various other \ recommendations of the report as to submarine mining, cavalry parades, and Easter encampments, would be carried out. The recommendations for bonuses for attendance at encampments and for badges for Volunteers would not be given effect to. He thought the present expenditure on defence was sufficient for the colony. If full power were given to Colonel Fox to nominate officers for the corps they might obtain a more efficient corps, but the move ment would not be so popular. This recommendation would be accepted, however, if Colonel Fox renewed it after he had further colonial experience. If the Government ] carried.out their proposals this year, they ■ would be in better position next year to see ■ how far the other proposals could be carried ' out. He thought that the thanks of the j country should be given to Colonel Fox for ' his report, which had been given fully and fearlessly. Captain RUSSELL said the Premier had spoken for nearly an" hour and a half, and ; at the expiration of that time he (Captain • Russell) had no more knowledge of the : Premier's intentions than before he com- ; menced. The question. they all wanted j answered was whether Colonel Fox was to j be placed in full command, or whether they were to go on in the same old way they had been doing? If he were an Imperial officer in Colonel Fox's position he should feel that he was coming out here under the present Defence Minister, who knew nothing whatever of modern warfare, and seriously jeopardised his career. He (Captain Russell) felt there was really nothing before the House to debate on iv the motion proposed by the Premier, and it was very evident they were being humbugged, and might just as well go home to their beds, as there was no life whatever m it. He held that Colonel Fox had not been too exacting, but thought that the criticisms of various officers should have been treated by the Defence Minister as

confidential. He (Captain Russell) claimed that our forts were not properly looked after, but he considered it was not necessary to have four forts, and they were not likely to have sufficient money to properly defend cur principal ports. Tho Volunteers, he thought, would be efficient if they were allowed to become so, but it was evident tbat Mr Seddon was determined to perpetuate the old scheme of inefficiency. He held that the proper system of defence was a naval squadron, and they could have, in Wellington especially, a properly organised defence force. As to the capitation grant proposed, ib should be larger than £2 10s. It might be said that he (Captain Russell) had not done much when he was Defence Minister, but had Mr Seddon no qualms of conscience on that head, as it was mainly owing to the Piemier's instigation that £7000 was struck off the very meagre defence estimates brought down by him (Captain Russell). He entered his protest at this report nob being brought ou at the proper time of the session aud at a more suitable time, instead of debating it at one o'clock in the morning to au empty House.

Mr ALLEN said there was no good in discussing tiie report. The Government were going to order the Martini Henry rifles, but otherwise the report might as well be torn up. At present the volunteer force was useless because the movement was not encouraged. It was useless their having a commandant of forces if he had not control of the forces. Some of the best of the officers had been hanging ou in the hope that some good would come from this report, but they would now leave the service. He regretted that the Government could not see its way to adopt Colonel Fox's recommendations, as they would put new heart and life into the Volunteer force. He quite agreed with Captain Russell that it was perfectly futile to discuss such a motion as that proposed by the Defence Minister.

Mr WILLIS said the report had as a whole been well received throughout the colony and praised for its candour. There was not so much in the revelations that had been made by Colonel Fox as was perhaps to be expected. He held, however, that Colonel Fox should have been more lenient in his criticisms and said ib appeared to him, speaking from his experience as captain of a company, that every endeavour had been made to show up the officers of companies, not only before their men bub before the country.

Mr WARD, while submitting that the report of Colonel Fox was an able one, said he bad made a serious mistake in his system of examination. He thought officers should not have been subjected to deliberate insult.

Mr Ward was speaking when the Telegraph Office closed at 2 a.m.