EVENING SITTING.

Press, Volume XLVIII, Issue 7922, 23 July 1891, Page 6

EVENING SITTING.

The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. THE LICENSING ACT. Mr Joycb moved the second reading of the Licensing Acts Amendment Bill. He said the existing Licensing Law had been in force for ten years, and it vested the power of giving licenses in certain Commissioners. Before that time the power was given to Resident Magistrates. The law at present was just as unsatisfactory as that existing in 1831. There was no doubt there were too many public houses at present, not only in large cities, but in the sm dler boroughs. Take Dunedin for example, where there are seventy licensed hou-.es. It would be seen by this Bill that those who did not believe in prohibiciou would have the opportunity of voting for a decrease in the number of houses rather than for the closing ot all of them. He might say that his present duty was not self-imposed but was undertaken at the request of the known philanthropist Sir William Fox. If this Bill passed it would remain inoperative until i.__, as an opportunity would be given people at chegeueral election in 1893 to say whether or not the measure should remain on the Statute Book. Every member of the House would be safe in voting for this Bill, as, if a majority of his constituents approved ot it he would get credit for it, but if they disapproved of rhe Bill, members could say they had voted in such a manner as would ensure the question being again considered. He referred to the large number of petitions sent to the House from all parts of the colony in favor of the Bill, and asking that a change should be made in the direction he had indicated. The third clause dealt with the extension of tho franchise, to give a right to all adults, both male and female to vote at the local option poll taken every third year. The Bill also provided for a decrease in the number of houses in any district, and that no intoxicating liquors should be sold ac railway stations. It was also provided that no license of any kind should be granted in any special licensing district until after a poll of the ratepayers respecting the granting of that license was taken. He said that public opinion was growing in England in the direction of allowing the people by direct vote at the ballot box to decide whether or not there should be a license in any particular district, and tbat was the principle of the Bill now before the House. It might be thought they were asking for an extreme thing in pressing for a veto, but that was at present in force in Norway and worked well. For ten years they had been trying a system in this colony that every one regarded as unsatisfactory, and he hoped tbe House would support the Bill. The main principle ol it was to give the people of the colony power to say at the ballotbox how many licenses should be issued or whether there should be any licenses at all in any particular district. Mr Buick thought the Bill was one which should commend itself to everyone. The proposal to extend the franchise to every adult male and female waa one that should find general acceptance. He believed the principle in this clause contained the true spirit of democracy, as who had a greater right to deal with the liquor traffic than the people themselves. By this Bill the people would be able to say whether there should be 100 publichouses in their district or none at all, without granting any compensation. The principle of local option, which was brought forward in the Bill in its entirety, was one of the most liberal and democratic ever submitted to the Honse, and if the House desired to show it was a liberal one it had a good chance now of showing a democratic tendency by voting for tbe second reading of this Bill, one which proposed to confer local government oa the people to the fullest extent. Tbe clause providing for penalties on those who supplied liquor to children was one of the most useful in,tbe Bill, as there was no more degrading sight than to see young children carrying liquor from pnblichouses. The provision for dealing with clubs was to his mind not severe enough, and he regarded the existence of those clubs as unfair to publicans, and he thought Government should refuse a charter altogether to such institution., as he considered they caused great unhappiness in many cases. He should most heartily support the Bill. Mr Wright would vote for the second reading of the Bill, and he took the opportunity of presenting two petitions he had received in favor of the Bill. He quite recognised that legislation was necessary in thia important question, but he should not agree to give such absolute power as was proposed by the Bill. He should propose in Committee that the principle of the Bill should not have effect, except in cases of an absolute majority of votes in the district in favor of it. Mr Rhodes also supported the Bill with some reservation.

Mr Blake did not see any good to be gained by the Bill, as it would not come into force till 1894, and by that time they might have women's franchise, Mr Rolleston thought the Bill was one that could not properly have the support of the House as a whole, and a Bill of that kind was not one that they could mould into a form satisfactory to the country. He could not vote for the Bill as it should not be brought in by a private member or moved in the interest of any particular class. Besides, the temperance people would not admit of compensation being given, and therefore those members who expressed their intention of voting for tbe Bill with the understanding that a compensation clause would be inserted in it, would not be doing themselvM justice. He should vote against any Bill of this kind that was not brought in by the -Government. Mr Reeves (Inangahua) would also oppose the Bill, as a measure of that kind had no chance of passing except it was brought in by the Government. Mr W. P. Reeves said no one who knew Mr Joyce douoted his sincerity on this question, as he had frequently expressed his views to him in that direction. He should oppose the Bill on a ground which had not yet been advauced, namely, that the time was inopportune for the teetotal party to demand more drastic legislation than they possessed ac present. They j had no right to demand further concessions than that in districts wliere they possessed a real majority they could cut down the liquor traffic. It had been lately seen in Sydenham that the teetotal party were determined, so to speak, to make an example of the publicans, and he would oppose any attempt of the Dresent Parliament to interfere with the licensing laws. Sir John Hall said the reason given by Mr Reeves for opposing the Bill was oue that would induce him to vote, but he could not, however, give it his entire support without a compensation clause being inserted in it. ilr ___R.<_ a. opposed the Bill, and said that as soon as the Government tackled the Bill as a piece of practical legislation, he should support ic. Ie waa the duty of the Government .to bring down any measure of this kind aud not a private member. Mr Palmer would oppose the Bill. He was pledged to oppose any attempt to interfere with the licensing law. Mr Rees would vote for the second reading as he believed in the principle of local option. He did not believe in depriving the people of compensation, and he thought the extreme views of the Temperauce party were likely to defeat their own ends. The principle of local option, however, should be more fully exteuded, and for that reason he should support the Bill. Mr Meredith also supported it. He thought that it must be admitted that the Ki-eat factor of crime and misery iv the coun.ry was the liquor traffic. • Mr Houston s"">oorted the Bill, and thought as manii 1 suffrage prevailed for the election of members of Parliament i they should not deny the same right to I persons who were to deal with the great > question of the liquor traffic. Mr Fishkr would also vote for the Bill, as he was pledged to the principle of local option. He agreed with Mr Rolleston thac where the law permitted licensed houses being built, it was only just that some recompense should be made if the license were taken away from such a house. Mr Joyce denied that the Bill was a private Bill, as he had introduced it at the request of several thousand people in the colony. What they had to do in matters of this kind was to agitate, agitate, agitate, and probably Mr Rolleston would eventually recognise that tbe public demanded some change in this direction being made, as he (Mr Joyce) had done. He was surprised to see so little opposition to the Bill. The motion for the second reading was agreed _■> by 31 to 23. The following is the division list :— Ayes—3l. Messrs Buckland Messrs Kelly, J. Buick Meredith Carncross Mills, J. Duthie Mitchelson Fisher Moore Sir G. Grey O'Conor Mr Guinness Parata Sir John Hall Rees Messrs Hall-Jones Saunders Harkness Seddon Hogg Smith, E.M. Houston Tanner Hutchison, Thompson, G. R. Hutchison. Thomson W. J. V 7. Joyce Wright Kapal Noes—23. Messrs Ballance Messrs Palmer Blake Perceval Bryce Reeves, R.H. Buchanan Reeves, W. Carroll P. Dawson Richardson Duncan Rolleston Fergus Capt. Russell Fish Messrs Shera Kelly, W. Swan Lawry Thompson, Mackintosh T. MeGuire Valentine Fraser Ward Mills, C. H. Wilson Being a private Bill no pairs were recorded. legislative council appointments. Mr Rees moved the second reading of the Legislative Council Appointments Cancellation Bill, to disqualify certain members of the Legislative Council under their present appointments. He said he hoped the Bill would be discussed on its merits, and without party consideration, ihe Governor's advisers could scarcely give a vote one way or the other on this question. The circumstances which led to the appointment of those seven gentlemen was peculiar in many respects, but the fact remained that at the time the appointments were made there was a strong feeling throughout tbe country that they should not be made, and petitions on the subject were presented to his Excellency and handed by him to his Advisers. It had been held for a long time thac it was unconstitutional for Ministers who were about to resign to make Important appointments. It was said (and he believed with authority) that within a few days of the resignation of the Atkinson Ministry no less than sixteen names were submitted to his Excellency with the advice that they should be called to the Legislative Council. If that were so such advice was a revolutionary proceeding. The Governor ultimately agreed to accept six names, and Ministers furnished him with a list of six gentlemen whom they considered the most desirable to receive the appointments. The object of tbe present Bill was to raise a constitutional argument against unconstitutional proceeding. Ie was out of no personal consideration whatever that he brought forward his Bill. All the gentlemen named in it were well knows as honorable men who were entitled to the respect of the House ; but he still maintained that the appointment by a moribund Ministry of a number of gentlemen to the Upper House was decidedly unconstitutional, and calculated to subvert proper Parliamentary Government. The reason for the appointment of those gentlemen was undoubtedly to secure a preponderance of political power in the second branch of the Legislature, which was not a proper proceeding for an outgoing Ministry to undertake. The late Ministry must have k i own that they were not in the confidence of a large section of the House at the time they advised his Excellency to make appointments, and that was §roved by the fact that they resigned efore the House met. He did not say that the late Ministry wilfully deceived the Governor on the matter, but he submitted that their action was unconstitutional, and it was the duty of the House to record its verdict against the conduct of the Ministry in this extraordinary proceeding. Mr Ballance said that whilst Mr Rees had shown that the advice tendered by the late Ministry was a grave constitutional doubt, he had not shown that the House should consent to the second reading of this Bill. The late Government assured his Excellency that they had the support of the largest party in the House, which they considered tantamount to having the support of the majority. There was no doubt great pressure was put on the Governor on the question of the appointments. He, however, could not see that his Excellency acted in any way unconstitutionally, bat pursued the same course as waa generally adopted at Home. Even supposing that the outgoing Ministry had the right to make appointments, he held it was a practice at Home that only three or four, or six names at the utmost, were submitted by the Government. Admitting, therefore, chat the outgoing Ministry had this right, there waa no analogy for making such a large- number of appointments. Why were those appointments not made while the late Ministry had a majority in the House and before the general elections took place? If the House admitted tbat , the action ot the late Ministry was wrong

was the present Bill a remedy for it? His opinion was that the Atkinson party had suffered the penalty for their action, am it was condemned from one end of the colony to the other. It was also a very Improper proceeding for the late Premier to create for himself a permanent appointment. Those appointments were made, however, and the question was, what was the remedy? The party, as he had said, had paid the penalty. A remedy might be found by providing in the Bill that the Government intended bringing down provision against action of this kiud being again taken by the Ministry. He could not support the present BUI, and he suggested that it be withdrawn with the view of ascertaining whether some other mode of dealing with the matter could be found. Sir G. Grey could not agree with the Premier that the late Ministerial party had paid the penalty for their action. A great wrong had been done to many people, and it was an abiding wr ug. What had really taken place was a solemn act of treachery to the people of the colony. They had for the first something" like a fair election, and a complete change had taken place in the country, if the Upper House had beeu lefc uucorrupted. Into that House there had lately eutered a monarch who sat there silent, followed by a number of men who would carry out his views to the detriment of the people of New Zealand. It was a sad thing when one man stepped into almost absolute power, and that was what had happened in the present case. There were two ways of dealing with the matter. One was that proposed by Mr Rees, although that did noc go far enough, and he should never attain have confidence in the second Chamber when such things could be done. The other way was to abolish the Upper House itself, and that way was always open to them. Why should they be subject to the wishes of a number of men over whom they had no control and in whose appointmeut they had no share. They had only to pass a. law __ela.ri_K that rhe Upper House should be abolished. If the Legislative Council resisted them the strong Government now in office could pat into the Second Chamber a sufficient number of men who would carry it into effect. He should support the Bill as it stood, as he looked on it as one step, but they should signalise the flrst Parliament elected under the one man one vote principle by passing a law which should restore to them their rights for ever, and enable them to rise as free men.

Air Fisher considered the introduction of this Bill an extraordinary step, but justiiied uuder the circumstances. Had it not, been for the circumstances connected with those appointments he should noc vote for the Bill now under discussion. He held it was a grave departure from the principles of honor that Sir H. Atkinson had not resigned after the result of the elections was known, instead of waiting for the eve of the re-asseuibling of Parliament. The late Premier must have known that he did not possess a majority in the House when he advised the Governor to make the appointments in question. He spoke at some length on the question, and laid stress ou the fact that there was no record of the actual date on which Sir H. Atkinson had resigned his seat in the House. He differed from Sir G. Grey in his opinion of the gentlemen who received the appointments to the Upper House, as he considered they were irreproachable, and were the best that could possibly be appointed; but he took strong exception to the manner of making those appointments. He merely wished to say that the Governor by his making the appointments had created a precedent which he hoped would never be followed by any future Governor. Captain Russell said the Governor could not be held responsible for acting on the advice of his advisers, and he contended that the late Ministry were alone responsible for making the appointments. The present Government on taking office became responsible for the appointment.,_because if they had any doubt as to tbe appointments they should have refused to take office till they hud advised his Excellency to request the late Ministry to explain their action to the House. Referring to Mr Rees' statement that the appointments were utterly unconstitutional, he quo.cd from The Times to show that new peers were constantly created by an outgoing and defeated Ministry, and he contended that he had shown three analogous cases which Mr | Rees stated had never existed. He also quoted from authorities to show that Sir E. Stafford bad at one time called oue gentleman to the Council the day after his defeat by the House, and on another occasion in which Sir G. Grey, as Premier, had advised Lord Normanby to call Mr Wilson to the Upper House at a time when a vote of no confidence was pending in the Grey Ministry. [Sir G. Ghet said he had reason to believe the no-confi-dence motion would be defeated, and it was defeated.] He went on to say that much as Sir G. Grey disliked the Upper House, he had himseif put into that Chamber a large number of members, and Sir R. Stout also had done the same thing. As a matter of history, which could not be denied, the so-called Liberal Ministry had placed a larger number of members in the Upper House than what was called the continuous Ministry. He wished to contradict the statement made by Mr Rees that the late Government advised his Excellency to call sixteen or eighteen gentlemen to the Council. That was absolutely contrary to fact. He had no cause to reproach himself for consenting as a Minister to the appointments made, and hoped he would never have greater cause of regret for his political acts than he felt over that action.

Colonel Frasrr said it was greatly to be regretted that an U-iblemished political career like Sir H. Atkinson's should have such a miserable ending as it haa by the making of those appointments. Mr Hutchison iWaitotara) reviewed the whole of the circumstances before the appointments were made. He said he did not presume to oiler an opinion in those extraordinary events of such vital interest; and he held it was indefensible for Cap tai v Russell to state that the present Ministry, which was recruited from the ranks of the Opposition to the late Government should be held responsible for those appointments. As to Captain Russell's contention that the Governor's action should not be criticised by the House, he held that the Governor's actions were just as liable to be reviewed by the House as were those of the Viceroy of Ireland by the House of Commons.

Mr O'Conor thought very little could be said in defence of the late appointments, but if he supported the Bill it was because he was opposed to the system of appointing men for life to positions of this kind, and not because of the constitutional aspect of the question at all. If the present appointments were not defensible neither were those made by the Government. The only way to put a stop to the practice of making these appointments was by taking some steps to abolish, in some way or other, the Upper House as a nominee Chamber.

MrSjiiTH (New Plymouth) supported the Bill, and thought the best remedy would be to put six labor candidates in che Upper House, and they would shake up the ancient mariners in that Chamber.

Mr Bdckxand thought that would be no remedy, as if the labor candidates had got "into that Chamber they would soon become ancient mariners too. He disapproved of the appointments made by the late Government, but he altogether refused to cast any blame on the Governor for his action in the matter. The whole blame must rest with the late Government. The present Bill was perfectly powerless and he felt they should not be discussing it at all. All Governments used Upper House appointments, but the Atkinson Ministry had made fewer appointments than the Liberal Party. He hoped the whole thing would be allowed to drop.

Mr Bryck said whether the Council would be abolished or not was not set forth in the present Bill. As the Council, however, was a nominated body the duty rested on every Government to keep up the number of that Chamber to a reasonable limit. At any rate l}he Government of Sir George Grey aud another Liberal Government which came after him exercised their right in that respect to the fullest extent. There was no doubt that the gentlemen appointed to tbe Council added considerably to the ability of that Chamber, and were otherwise not objected to personally by anybody. He thought, however, that a mistake had been made by the late Government in not making the appointments during their term of power instead of after they were defeated at the poll. As long as the Council remained a nominated body, the power of nomination must rest with somebody. The Bill proposed to take away the power of nomination from the Governor, and that being so he contended the Bill was not a proper one for the House to discuss.

Mr Blake would not vote for the Bill, as it could not have any effect one way or the other. Supposing the Bill were carried, he presumed the Government would not vote for it, and that being so, they could hardly advise the Governor to give effect to it.

Mr Hogg asked whether Captain Russell would den> that a much larger number of

fmtlemen were recommended to hl_. xcellency than received appointments. Mr Mitceuelson said (in CaDtatn Russell's absence) that be, as a member _t the late Ministry, would reply to thaii question. He wished to state that o_l» \ the names submitted to the Governor were those who were appointed to "-hiCouncil. fca "'

Mr Hogg denounced the appointment* and said he should support the Bill. * Mr Fkrgus expressed his utter eon tempt for the sentiments just expressed by Mr Hogg, who was a tyro in policies. H. pointed out that the late Government wei. compelled to make some appointments to the Council, because that body became so much reduced in numbers. At the sam* time the l_iberal Party had appointed no less thau seventeen members in th» last twelve years, which was afargreatJ nuT.ber than were maiie by the prrsruit Oppostion Party. Theu as tothegßuiien_«» who were appointed by the late Govern ment, why everyone of them ha.i held seats in the House, and were returned b? their coiistitu.nts f-giin and again. On. of them in particular (Mr Bowen) was en titled to the thanks ot the wh.>te colon? by having instituted and carried through the House their present Education Act. He protested against the insulting termi used by Mr Hogg against his (Mr Ferutis'i late chief, and prophesied that, wheu __J Hogg's name w_s buried in oblivion Sir H. Atkinson's name would be honored by the whole colony. ' Mr Sbddon deprecated the attack made on MrHi)|*g by ihe last .peuk.r. Headmitted Sir li. Atkinson ha ■ nouegr e _[_. i service io the o >kmy, Out all he haa doat | was spoiled by his final act. If n e na d trusted the Liberal party the late Premier would now have beeu &xt& in his present position by honorable instead of underhand means, lie recited that aay Government had b<-en iv office that would tender advice to the Governor th it they knew was uot burne out br facts. He h*d nothing to say against Ida gentlemen who were appointed br tho late Goreruiueuc to the Ouuucll, but It was w. 11 known that they all belonged to one party, and would be able to frustrate the action of the Houso of Represeutat'veg, He did uot think the present Bill would prevent such cases > ccuniug in future, and he should vote against it. Mr 11_.kk.nks_ thought the present debate was derogaioiy to the prestige of the House, as they were discusaiug a Bill that would never lind its way to the Upper House. It was admitted that Sir H. Atkinson had done yeoman scr\ice to the colony, and if he hud made a iiual mistake it was surely the duty of the preaenl Government, io coudoue that mistake, and not allow a I3UI of this kiud to be bro.jthl in by one of their supporters. Ai to Mr beddon's remarks about Sir H. Atkinson not trusting tne Liberal party, ha (Mr Harkness) asserted that the Liberal party were not to be trusted, as they had sold him when he wus a young politician. Mr Kekves (liuuig.ihua) said when Mr Harkness was drst, returned to the Houte it was as a supporter of the Liberal Party. (Mr Harkness—No.) The last act of the lute Premier aud the late Government was ono that would brand them with shame all over New Zealand, He should support the Bill.

The motion for tho second reading vttA agreed to ou the voices and the House rest at 1.5U a.m.