HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Press, Volume XLV, Issue 7124, 21 July 1888, Page 6

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Tht/bsday, July 19. Stonewalling continued till after 4 a.m., when a compromise was effected between the contending parties, by which it waa agreed that the committal of the Hospitals and Charitable Institutions Bill should be made an order of the day for Thursday next, after the Ofcago Central Eailway Bill. The House rase at 4.20 a.m.

Fbidat, Jdxy 20.

The Speaker took the chair at, 2.30 p.m. QUESTIONS. Mr S. Eiktes asked the Premier if any information has been received as to whether the contract haa been signed in London by the Midland Sail way Company, and if the Government will insist on the contrast being signed before the close of the present session. Sir H. Atkinson said he had received no definite information, but from a cable message Qovernmtnt had received, he inferred the contract was not yet signed, but was awaiting a few little amendments. Government would see that no unnecessary delay would take place in the matter. Mr Goldib asked the Commissioner of Cußtoma whether it is intended to charge the primage duty of 1 per cent, on the net amount of the invoice or on the amount of the invoice with 10 par cent. aided.

Mr Fisheb said under the Bill it waa quite clear it was to bo charged on the invoice price plus 10 per cent.

Mr BraTHAM asked the PostmasterGeneral if the Government have entered into any correspondence with the Direct Steamship Companies as to the possibilities for arranging equitable terms with those Companies to carry her Majesty's mails in the event of the Saa Francisco service being discontinued. Sir H. Atkinson said no negotiations hod taken piece, since the House was to discuss the whole question when the mail service came on.

LEGISLATIVE E3TIMATK3. Sir H. Atkinson moved—"That the House do forthwith resolve itself into a Committee of the whole to consider the following resolution—' That this Housa is of opinion that Government should be responsible for legislative estimates.' " He said it appeared to the Government that this was the most convenient course to adopt, and he should simply ask the House to go into Committee to consider the whole question. He hoped the House would decide the question without any unnecessary debate. Agreed to, and the House went into Committee.

Sir H. Atkinson said, in asking , the House to give the Government charge of the Legislative Estimates, he did not propose to interfere with the salaries of officers -which were fixed by Act. He contended that the Minister in charge of the public revenue should certainly have charge of those estimates, and it was not a very dignified position for the Speaker of the House to have t;> come down and defend them in Committee. Hβ (Sir H. Atkinson) had considered the question very carefully, and had come to a conclusion that Government would have no undue power in controlling those Eetimatei, and that no possible harm could come of it. Government had no feeling at all in the matter, and he did not wish ie to be at all a party question in any shape, fie felt sure the Speaker would take the same view, and the matter would be considered quite dispassionately. Mr Downeb Stewart said it was a matter of paramount importance, not only to the officers of the House, but to members generally. He thought the Premier, in moving his motion, had not studied constitutional history. The Speaker ha considered, wsra the mouthpiece of the House, and should have full control of those Estimates. They should aim at the absolute independence ef the House, and place each questions as those outside party politics altogether. It was of the first importance that the Sergeant-at-Arma and other officers of the House should treat all members equally, whether Ministers or private members. He contended that no sufficient reason had been shown for mnH-ng such a change as proposed by the Premier. He moved, as an amendment — " That the House and Speaker ehould continue responsible for the Legislative Estimates."

Mr Ribbon said Mr Stewart should have taken a more modern view of the question, and not gone back to constitutional history. He quoted from evidence formerly given before a Select Committee by the pr-sent Clerk of Parliament, in which he (Major Campbell) read a letter from Sir Brskin* May to the effect that the Legislative officers of the*lmperial Parliament w^re under the control of Government.

Sir Mattbic* O'Bobct said Sir Enkine May had never pabliahed that letter. He warmly defended the practice that had hitherto prevailed by which the Speaker had control of these eetimistes, ande&id he euspected that the reaeon why the Prettier had now brought the <;tiestioc forward was b?cao£e of tee penjions to which the officers of the ELu;e were entitled. Be pointed out thnt both the Clerk cf Parliament and the Clerk cf Committees had been performing their present duties most capably for thirty years, and he regretted that the assistant Clerk of Parliament had been told by the Premier that

he would have to perform ordinary clericil work in the recess. He part ticularly regretted that the preaenPremier, one of the oldest members of the House, had made that stipulation. He (the Spetker) could not understand what he had done, and why this matter should be taken out of his hands. He appealed to the House to keep the matter within their own control, and not to relegate the salaries of Legislative officers to a foreign body, as was now proposed by tiie Government. Tee Speaker weos on to refer to the Legislitive Erpanditure Committee, which was appointed a year ago on Mr O'Conor's motion, and'siid neither the Speaker of the Legislative Council nsr himself w*s called on to give evidence before it. After careful search into the records of the other colonies, he said he had not been able to find a single instance in which Legislative officers were not under the control of Parliament. He hoped the $ammittee wo old pardon him if he expressed himself strongly on this matter r ''wliich he felt was an unwarrantable and uuQonstitutional attempts,to interfere with the privileges of the Speaker of the House. He was not speaaing on his own behalf, but; on behalf of the other officeis of the Legislature. Mr O'Cohob defended his action in moving for tne L9gisntive Expenditure Committee referred to by toe Speaker. He strongly suopirted the Premier's motion. Sir H. Atkinson said he had heard the Speaker's reniaris with extreme regret, as that hon. gontieinan had made a distinct charge of corruption sgainat the Government. That hon. gentleman had distinctly stated that the whola object of the Government in moving in this matter waa to drive effiaers who were entitled to pensions out of office, in order that Government mijriit have these appointments to fill up. He (the Premier) repudiated any eush insinuation, and he thought the Hjuse should also resent it. Hβ waa utterly astonished' at such an accusation being made by a gentleman :n the Speaker's position. ii:3 (the Premier's) whole object had been to adoyt a course which he thought waa the wish of the House. Aβ to the statement that the Assistant Clerk was to perform clerical work, he (Sir H. Atkinson) was quite prepared to take the responsibility for what he did in that reppect, and he considered Government ehould have the benvfi; of those gentlemen's services during the reese* as well as while the House was sitting, and that he understood waa the wish of taeH-iuse also. The Speaker had told them that to other Assembly in the world hal adopted the course now proposed, and this slat'ment considerably astoahhed him, as in S:>uth Australia the same practice prevailed as was now propo3od by him. It was a matter of ex-retae regret to him that the debate had taken a personal turn, as he was very anxious to avoid that. He thought the action of the Gjverntnant w.*a reasonable, and in accord with the vie a-3 of a large majority of the Home, bub if the House thought otherwise Government were quita prepared to accept its decision. Mr Down;e Stewakt implored the House not to infringe the great principle which had hitherto prevailed in this respect and not to take the control of those offices out of the Speaker's hands. Mr Batxancb thought the proceedings of fche Committee, moved tor by Mr O'Conor, to enquire into legislative expenditure, proved that these salaries should not be put under the control of the Government. The Hjuee had distinct privileges, which should not be at the mercy of the Government of the day, and in all hie experience he hid found that no economy resultod from giving up those privilegee. Nobody denied that Government should take the lead in these matters, and who could prevent Government making a recommendation to the House to this effect ? Ha pointed out that there had been more debate in the House over legislative departments than over any other, showing that there hid been no want of revision on the part of the House. He would aak whether a single member of the House wished to part with his privilege except for the sake of economy, but he considered the action of the Government was intended to deprive the House of ita privileges, as if those officers were reduced it would ba out of the power of the House to raise thorn. It seemed to him that by following the custom that prevailed in most cf the other colonies they would bs doing right in this matter by retaining tiw-ir privileges in their own hands. Mr Hislop considered the speech jo at made by Mr Eallanca was a most extraordinary one. The whole burden of hie remarks was that Government were not to be entrusted with the payment of these officer?, and he (Mr Hielop) was not awure whether that principle actuated Mr Ballance when he was in office. He was surprised at the member for Wanganui, who professed to be a democrat, supporting the present system with respect to those officers. If Government were not to be trusted in these matters, wa3 the Speaker also so immaculate that he might not appoint friends and relations of his own? He trusted the House would not be so egotistical as to say that its officers should be paid at a higher rate than those of other colonies, and no one waa more competent to judge of questions of this kind than the Government, who had more facilities for getting information than the Speaker could poesibly have. Ha submitted that if the House was true to itself it would agree with the resolution brought down by the Premier, and he felt sure it would not have any such dangerous effect as had been foretold by some hon. gentlemen.

Mr Walkee deprecated the remarka of the Colonial Secretary, especially as the Premier had asked them not to import any part; feeling into the discussion. He (Mr Walker) regarded the speech of the member for Wanganui as a mo3t temperate one, and did not warrant sujh a reply. He was opposed to the Premier's motion, and contended that officers of the House should be in a perfectly independent position. They should adhere to their privileges in this respect, and not part with them in the manner propssed by the Govern meat. Referring to the Legislative Expenditure Committee, of which the member for the Bailer was them3utbpece.be end the fact that the Speakers at both Houses were carefully excluded from giving evidenca showed that tbe Committee bad n*glec-e3 their dutj. He denied most emphatically that tte Hou=e bad expressed any desire to make the change proposed.

The debate was interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment.