EVENING SITTING.

Press, Volume XLIV, Issue 6924, 2 December 1887, Page 5

EVENING SITTING.

The House resumed at 7.30 p.nu -. Mr Peacock resumed the debate on the Government Railways Bill. He said he should like to have all the information possible as to the working of the Tictoriatt system before they were committed to the proposed change in the railway manage- < ment, otherwise, in making this change, they might, to use homely phrase, be " jumping out of the fryingpan into the fite." He believed that evils which I existed in our system were caused j by rules being applicable to one [portion of the colony and hot to another. They could not hope for that improvement which they had seen in the Victoria-- system, unless the Commissioners were to visit different districts under their control. The proposal in the Bill to extend the tenure of office of the Co-amis-ioners to seven years did not meet with his'approval, as he did not consider the colony should be bound to that extent in adopting a new system. There was one point in the Bill on which he had considerable doubt, that was as to whether it was a wise thing to bring in the construction of railways under the Boardof Management. The scheme might be confined in the first instance to railway management, leaving the construction of railways to those who were more specially qualified for it. He felt it would have been well if the Mi-isterhad given figures of the Victorian Eailway Board, so that they might be able to ascertain how far that system would be applicable to this colony He should support the second reading of the Bill, to himself the right of dealing with it afterwards by the -modifications made in Oomimtte-- . • Mr Fish thought the Minister for Public Works was to be congratulated upon 1 his preparation of the Bill, but he doubted 1 very much whether it would be an _m'provement on the present management. i The great cause for the mismanagement of I our railways in the past was because the 1 head of the department was not a competent man. I* tb* Government established this Board we must give the head of the department a salary of not less than -22500 or "£3OOO p-r annum. If a general manager received .£ISOO from Government a year, they should be able to P********* reailv competent man- He recollected tS» when the late Minister for Public Works held a very different opmron of the present General Manager of Badways from that he had given, utterance to that afternoon. He held there was no analogy between this colony «mdrictona, _?we had td compete with water ■carnage ___d-___-hi e» <* pV^ o *' <!^£ ir i£ affe-t-d the receipts from **?**3* V «X £at_r__lly. -tesp«*ing tho term of office of the Cobrois-ionera. ho thought it would

|be a great mistake to make the appoint- | ment for seven years; three years in his opinion would be quite enough for an experiment of this kind. If it worked satisfactorily they could easily be extended till such time as the Legislature considered desirable. It appeared to him, also, that one board would never give sat-**-faction to the colony. Mr Tho__-_o_j (Auckland North) supported the Bill, as the feelings Of the great majority of the people of thc country were against the present management of pax railways. He regretted to see no intention made of the giving the vaile system a trial, and he hoped when jthe Bill was in Committee a clause I would be inserted making it. ™ m ~ pulsory to give that scheme a trial. A Committee of the House fully inquired into that system, and reported in favour of it. He hoped the scheme would have a trial in some isolated portion of the railways, say, in the Auckland district. . Captain 80-sel* could not but think it was a serious reflection on Parliamentary Government that a Bill of this kind could have been brought in for the management of the railWays, and he did not think the result to be obtained would be much better than at present. He admitted, however, that a change was inevitable, but he did not think Mr Vaile's system would do anything else but inflict a serious loss on the railway revenue. He denied that the reason why people refused to travel on the railways was because they could not afford to do so. It Was owing to business engagements and other reasons. He saw no hope, whatever our management wa3, of TriftVing any dividend out of our railways. He asserted that notwithstanding repeated statements that our railway charges were excessive, those charges in nearly every instance were lower than in other colonies. If the present scheme was to be of any benefit at all the only chance of it being so was to give the Commissioners the fullest powers of management. Sir J. Vooel said it was somewhat surprising he was not supporting this Bill, as formerly he had advocated the principle of it. He hoped the Bill would be considered on its merits, not as a party measure. He would not vote for the Bill, but would not vote against it, as he considered it desirable it should pass its second reading. Government should, however, be content to leave it to stand over till next session, as it was important that the country should consider the whole question he should offer no obstruction whatever to the Bill. Referring to the present General Manager it was well known he was not a popular man, but he was a man of great ability, and had made himself thoroughly acquainted with the subject of railway management. His decisions were frequently unpopular, more on account of the manner in which they were announced than because of their purport. They were now asked to change railways from a colonising machinery into a commercial transaction, and he doubted whether the colony would respond to that view. As to Mr Vaile's system, of which so much has been heard, he thought Mr Mitchelson would agree with him that the proposal to reduce rates over long distances was not a new one. All railway tariffs were based on the principle that the larger the num-j ber of miles travelled, the lower the rates. While Mr Vaile's system might be a sound : one in principle, it would be impossible to make his reductions on the rates applicable to! the whole of the colony. Referring to the functions of the Board, he thought that while it was Hot desirable to vote the j salaries of Eailway servants in the House, j it was not desirable to hand over the treatment of officials to the' Board. He believed a Parliamentary Committee to, sit during the recess would probably do j more good towards the management of railways than anything else. The argumen about getting a man from Home was, he thought, overdone. People at Home would tell you that the genius of railway management was to fight off competition unless he could not prevent it. He doubted whether for three times the salary they ..could,Zg_t; so competent a man from England' as Mr Maxwell. He also believed they might go a long way and pay a great deal more more money than Mr Hannay received, and not get a better man. He hoped the Government would not consider he was offering these remarks in a hostile spirit, and he thought it would be a bad thing for the country if they could not discuss such a question free from party feeling.

Sir John Hall quite concurred with that' view. Like the hon. gentleman who introduced .the Bill, he was a convert to its principles as constant political influence over our railways has not only gone on, but was increasing. Even during the last election the railway employes exercised very great influence, which he considered as most desirable to get rid of. It was in consequence of holding such views as these that he had come now to the opinion that railways should be managed by an independent system. He had recently been in Australia, and from the enquiries he had made, he found the system had given satisfaction. He also found that Mr Speight was not dissatisfied with his position. On the contrary, he was very pleased with it. In New South Wales, also, political influence had rendered it imperative for a change in the direction proposed by the present Bill. As •to the term of office of the Commissioners, he thought five years was not long enough, and a good manager could not be obtained without sufficient inducement being held out to him. The statement that Commissioners would fix a high rate of salaries was, he thought, imaginary. He combated Captain Russell's statement that the reason for people not using the railway was not owing to the want of money. Hawke's Bay people might be in a different position, but in his (Sir J. Hall's) district the reason for it certainly was owing to hard times. He objected to that part of the Bill which proposed to put the construction of lines in the hands of Commissioners. He saw no reason for postponing the Bill till next session. The proposal had been before the country for some time.. He hoped his hon. friend would go on with it, and that it would pass this session.

Br. HdiK____so_ supported the Bill; but he had little hope that it would be a satisfactory solution of the difficulty. The only reasonable way of meeting the difficulty would be by Belling the railways.

Mr Blake opposed the Bill, as he had great objection, after spending so much money on our railways, to hand them over to staangers whom they would probably know very little about. He thought some other system might be adopted which would not endanger fourteen and a-half millions of the colony's money. He should not vote against the Bill, but in Committee he should make some amendments.

Mr Scorns MackeStzJe opposed the Bill because he believed thtf'prineiple on which it was founded was %n, entirely erroneous one. - He was one oO&qse who believed that railways in New were now, and had been for a. long iime, very well managed. The infln accident prqbabjy helped him m arriving at that opinion. At the samejtime they must all admit there was sometjiiijg wrong. He pointed out that om;- 'igiiljj-ays paid half what was paid by thrrailways of Victoria and New South Wales, ■ and he thought that was perfectly reasonable, as we only had half the populatfeji of '.those colonies. The?** "*' as no doubt o-*£'*(*k>p*i___tion had not kept pace with our railways, and yet the railways progressed while the population had in proportion. He was one of those who thought it was a wrong thing- to fc__e from the Government the control of a railway system which had cost nearly fifteen millions of money, and to hand it over to a Board. It did not follow that political pressure was always exercised in the wrong direction. He would vote against the Bill for the reasons he had given. Mr Mknteath regretted that so pronounced a freetrader as Mr Macken-ie should oppose a Bill which was the very essence of freetrade. He admitted that the Board was an experiment, but if it effected what he hoped it would do in destroying the prestige of the Government, it would have deserved well of the country. He condemned the extravagance of the local jealousies that prevailed, in the colony, and he .trusted that if this Hoard were appointed it would stamp out those jealousies, which Government could

not possibly do. He supported the Bill, not because he thought it would effect ail that was expected, but because he hoped that it would be instrumental in purifying the atmosphere of the House, and would result beneficially in a commercial sense. Mr Bkucb said the whole question was one of surpassing difficulty, and it was a problem that could only be solved approximately. He intended to support the Bill, however, because he thought under it the railways would be more economically managed. He should hail with delight any measure that would rid the raUways of political influence, and he hoped this experiment would prove successful in that respect. He was inclined to admit that directly or indirectly the railways were paying now, although they had not been managed in the best interests of the colony. He had great pleasure in supporting the Bill although it was an experiment.

Mr Fergus said anyone acquainted with the colony of Victoria must know that there wa_ but one opinion in favor of the working of Eailway Boards; further, New South Wales had now copied the axaniple set by that colony. The system of political pressure in Victoria had grown so strong that it was impossible to resist, and'the same state of things was growing up in this colony, which it was very desirable should not be encouraged. He defended the proposal to place the construction of lines under the control of the Board. He did not wish to say anything in disparagement of the men in charge of the raUway at the present time, but he agreed with Mr Eichardson that if those men were more untrammelled the results would _be more satisfactory. There was no denying the fact that a large amount of dissatisfaction existed at present, but was that altogether owing to the action of officers of the department. He believed that by putting the railways under the Board they would get the maximum amount of profit at a minimum cost. The Bill brought down was not perfect, and the Government were quite willing to have it amended. He knew the colony was looking for the Bill, and he hoped the House would agree to its j second reading.

MIDLAND lIAILWAT. A message was received • from the Legislative CouncU to the effect that certain amendments were made in clause 3 of the Midland Eailway contract. Major Atkinson moved that the amendments be considered next day, which was agreed to. GOVEEN-TENT BAILWAYS BILL. Mr Lbv_:sta_i continued the debate on the Government Bailways Bill. He intended to support the second reading, but when ft got in Oonunittee there were several clauses which he .honld like to see amended.

Mr Kerr would vote for the Bill, although he thought it was a leap in the dark. If a man were imported from England to manage the railways he would not be likely to do any better than the present manager. Mr Taylor supported the Bill. Mr Duncan agreed with the view taken by Mr Scobie Mackenzie of this Bill. He did not at all believe in it.

Mr Jones supported the second reading, but he thought it should go no further at present. Messrs Marchant and Kelly supported the Bill.

Mr Hobbs supported the Bill, but said he noticed during the debate an utter want of sympathy with the settlement of people on the land, which was a more important matter than making railways pay. Mr Reeves (Inangahua) hoped the Bill would be postponed till next session. Sir G. Grey believed past management had been exceedingly good, and accidents had been surprisingly few. He had seen no railways in any past of the world which had a more respectable class of servants than in this colony. He should be anxious to know where those Commissioners were to come from, as he considered it would be very unfair to go out of the colony for them. If the- railways were taken out of the haa__B of the Par-iamenrfc ,an injury would be inflicted on the people of the colony. He held that the only way to deal with a question like this was to have a Ministry put in office for a term of years. He should feel it a duty he owed to the people of New Zealand to vote against the Bill. Mr MitcheliSON congratulated the House on the manner in which the debate had been conducted. He felt sure, from the remarks of hon. members that the Bill woidd be made a workable one in Committee. The motion, for second reading was carried by 51 to G. MINING. Mr Richardson moved the second reading of the Mining Act Amendment Bill. Mr Seddon supported the Bill. Mr Allen said a large question was opened up by this Bill, as clause 3 provided that future purchasers of land on water-courses in mining districts were to acquire no riparian rights. The mining interest was put before that of Crown lands. The motion was agreed to. The House rose at 12.50 a.m.