PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Press, Volume XXIII, Issue 3035, 14 May 1875, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Thtjbsday, May 13. The Speaker took the chair at 5 p.m. REPOBT OF COMMITTEE. MrWYKN Wim.iams brought up the reportof the Select Committee on The Diversion of Boads Special Ordinance, No 4, and The Reserve No 93a Ordinance, which was read as follows;—"The committee having examined the following witnesses, viz, Messrs W. Chisnall, N. Ellis, D. Inwood, G. Thornton, H. G. S. Bull, T. W. Maude, H. J- Hall, Thomas Patterson, and Henry Nonweek; and having also examined plans of the reserve and land purported to be given in exchange, are Tinanimously of opinion that the Bills referred to should not be proceeded with."

—ISBEP0BXIK&. Mr W. B. TosßWitL desired to state that 4*« noticed aa enot in the rtport of bis

speech of the preceding evening appearing in the Press, regarding the proposition of the Government. That report made him say directly opposite to what he had said on the matter.

THE SHEEP ORDINANCE.

Mr Tosswill said he wished to bring under the notice of the Government a case of hardship. It appeared that a man named Parish had bought some sheep from Mr Horceman, of Waikari, with which had got mixed several valuable long-woolled ewes, which were confined to a paddock.where they were being drowned. The sheep had been dipped twice.and had never been diseased. Mr Parish had offered to destroy these sheep at 7s per head, and he thought that Mr Parish had some claim for compensation. He would wish to ask the Government whether they wonld take some steps in the matter. 1 Mr Maskell said the man had come to him, and asked permission to remove these sheep from a paddock at Springston to one at Templeton. The matter was referred to the chief inspector, who had reported to the Government that these sheep were a portion of the scabby sheep of Mr Horneman, and therefore did not come under the provisions of the amended Ordinance. The Government therefore could not accede to the request thus made. As to compensation he pointed out to the hon member that this opened up a large question, as the Government had not compensated others, and therefore it would not be well to enter into this question now. He thought the best way would be for the hon gentleman to give notice of any motion on the subject that he might think proper. DETENTION ON THE NOBTHEBN LINE. Mr A. Pebky asked the Secretary for Public Works, without notice, whether it was necessary that the northern train should be detained at Dunsandel from twenty minutes to half an hour ?

The Secretary for Public Works replied that he was not aware that any unnecessary delay had occurred, but the matter mentioned by the hon member wonld be inquired into.

LOCKING CARRIAGE DOORS.

Mr Walker brought under the notice of the Secretary for Public Works the fact that the carriages on the narrow gauge lines were still locked, notwithstanding the resolution of the Council.

The Secretary for Public Works replied that there were certain slight difficulties in the immediate carrying out of the resolution which had not yet been got over; but the Government would endeavor with the least possible delay to see that the resolution was carried out in its fullest spirit. inspector of pre-emptive rights.

Mr Knight asked the Provincial Secretary whether the same Inspector of Pre-emptive Rights was still employed by the Government; and if so, what was he doing? The Provincial Secretary replied that he was not prepared to answer the question then. The hon member had better give notice of it. education ordinance, 1875. Sir Cracroft Wilson stated that it was not the intention of the Government to bring forward the second reading of the Education Ordinance that evening. PUBLIC HEALTH ACT. Mr Walker asked if the Government in-, tend to take action towards the amendment of the Public Health Act in the next session of the General Assembly, embodying amendments forwarded by Local Boards of Health. The Provincial Secretary said that by the Health Act the Central Board of Health were to report to the Governor. The Central Board of Health consisted of the Executive of the province, with some other members, and it was their intention to send a report, together with recommendations as regarded Local Boards of Health, to the Colonial Government. The hon member would see therefore that it was impossible for the Central Board to do anything until the Colonial Government had been communicated with. pensions for civil service. Mr Knight moved—"That this Councilis of opinion that it is desirable steps should be taken for providing retiring allowances for persons engaged in the Civil Service of the province." He might say that last session something was done in this matter, in so far as a petition was presented to the House. He hoped to hear from some member of the late Government what had been done, as of course the present Government would know nothing about it. He believed that there was a provision of some kind for the employes of the General Government, and be hoped that the House would see some way to carry out the object. I

Mr Webb seconded the motion. Some sessions back his colleague, the Hon E. Richardson had brought this matter before the House, and he (Mr Webb) had moved an amendment that the advantages should be extended to the police. Nothing had been done in the matter, though he considered it a very important one. He thought perhaps the. best way would be for the various employees of the Government to allow of a certain sum being deducted monthly from their salaries to form a fund.

The Pbovincial Secbetaby said that this matter had been under the notice of the Government more or less since they had taken office. He might point out to the House that the subject was one of considerable difficulty, as the General Government had found it when dealing with it. He might say that there were several officers of the Government who for various reasons desired to retire from the public service; hence it was necessary that some steps should be taken as soon as possible. It was, however, very difficult to say what shape the arrangement should take, but he might say that the Government were quite willing to accede to the resolution.

Mr Jebson said that he thought some provision should be made by the State for those who were worn out in the service, and that those who -were in active service should be called upon either by subscribing a certain sxitti or allo'wxrig a deduction to t»e madefrom their salary to form a fund, to which they could have recourse if necessary. Mr B. Ttjknbttll trusted the House would see its way clear to pass this resolution, and that the Government -would carry it into effect. He felt that if this were done officers of the public service would have something to look forward to. He felt sure that there was no more necessary subject upon which the Council and the Government could legislate.

Mr Joykt quite agreed with this principle, ss in 1872 he had brought down a resolution to extend these advantages to the police, but up to the present time nothing had been doce. This resolution might be passed, and the question would be just in the same position as before. If the hon member who had moved this resolution had added to his motion that the Government be requested to bring down, the present session, a scheme for carrying it out, then some practical result might be expected to follow. He (Mr Joynt) wonld move, as an addition to the resolution. " That the Government be requested to bring down, during the present session, a scheme for giving effect to the resolution."

Sir Cracroft Wilson opposed the introduction of the words proposed by the hon. member for Kaiapoi. There were a number of Acts relating to pensions of the members of the civil service. He believed that by these Acts the police were excluded from receiving any benefit under these Acts. Later still an Act had been brought down making it imperative on members of the civil service entering it after that date to allow the Government to deduct from their salary a certain sum monthly to form a fund from which pensions, &c, could be paid. He hoped the hon member for Kaiapoi would allow of the resolution being made to read " during the recess," instead of " during the present session," so as to allow of this matter, which was of gieat importance, being thoroughly considered. The time of the Government was so much taken up that they really had no time now to consider the question. He must not be understood to be opposed to the principle at all, but simply he wanted time to think over a subject which had puzzled many wise heads. He would move that the words " during the recess" be inserted in lien of the words " during the present session."

Mr Knight said it was a matter of great tnrprise to him that the late Provincial Soli*

citor should hare moved such an amendment as he had done. So long ago as last June the members of the civii ?j»rvico received a letter telling them that tti.» Government would take the matter into consideration. Now, nine months bad been spent by the late Go vernment in doing nothing—literally nothing —yet the lato Provincial Solicitor now came down and wanted the House to pass a resolution which would be embarrassing to the present Government, and one which could not be moved with anything but an unfriendly spirit. [Hear, hear. | Mr Montgomery said that'he was surprised to hear the party tone which the hon member for Lincoln (Mr Knight) had introduced into this question. The lato Government had taken the matter intoconsi<i»'ratio:>. and the reason why nothing had been dove was that the legislation in the General Assembly tended most decidedly towards the abolition of provincial institutions, and this was the answer which the late Government had given to a deputation which had waited upon them with respect to this matter. He hoped the hon member for Kaiapoi would accede to the motion of the President of the Executive, and allow of the matter being considered during the recess. [Hear, hear.] He desired, however, to say that the members of the late Government had no wish to embarrass the present Government in any way on this question. Mr Andrews suggested that the Government should take the question of establishing an accident fund into their consideration. There were many accidents occuring, and the result was that many calls were made upon the charitable aid department. This, he thought, was a subject that could be well considered by the Government in connection with the pension fund proposed to be established under the resolution of the hon member for Lincoln. By the establishment of such a fund it would give confidence to the Government employes that they would receive assistance during the time of their calamity. The resolution was amended by the Speaker to read as follows:—"That the Government be requested to bring down next session a scheme for carrying out the resolution.'" The resolution as amended was put and agreed to.

CONTINGENCIES.

Mr Gray moved—'- That there be laid on the table a statement as to how and at what dates the item for general contingencies under the head " Miscellaneous" in the estimates sheet has been applied since January Ist, 1874, to the present date." The motion was agreed to.

RAILWAY TOLLS AND MANAGEMENT ORDINANCE.

The Hon G. Buckley moved for leave to introduce a Bill for an Ordinance, to be intituled the Railway Tolls and Management Ordinance. Leave was given, the Bill read a first time, and ordered to be printed, and the second reading fixed for Wednesday next. SUNDAY VISITORS TO THE MUSEUM. Mr Jebson moved—"That an approximate return be laid on the table, stating the number of persons who have visited the Museum on each Sunday since the opening of the same to the public on Sundays." He had seen soon after the opening of the Museum on Sundays a notice in the papers of the number of persons visiting the Museum; but this had not been continued. He supposed that no difficulty would be experienced in obtaining such a return as he had moved for.

The Provincial Secretary said that he held the return in his hand, and as it was so short he might give the House the contents of it. It appeared that for some Sundays after the opening, the number of persons had not been accurately ascertained, but he might say that for the past six months the number of visitors to the Museum on wet Sunday afternoons had been and on fine 930—[Hear, hear]—thus making an average of 600 for the six months. [Hear, hear.] The motion was put and agreed to. EOAD WORKS ON THE PENINSULA. Mr Pilliet moved—"That a return of road works supervised during the past year ending April 30th, by the Peninsular engineer, in the road district of Okain's Bay, be laid on the table." The motion was agreed to.

CLERICAL ERROR.

Mr Walker moved—"That the hon the Speaker have leave to correct a clerical error in resolution No 1, on the notice paper of May 12th by substituting the words " the Trespass of Cattle Ordinance, 1872," for " the Trespass of Cattle Ordinance, 1869." The motion was agreed to.

The debate on the estimates was resumed by Mr Higgins, who said that the statement had been fully discussed, and he did not think he would say very much more on the subject. There was one point which had called forth much discussion, which was the retaining on the estimates those large sums which were allocated for public works, i but were not intended to be used during the financial year, thus showing a deficit which of course was not desirable either in a public or private account if possible. Hon members had very freely spoken on this subject, but he would point out that the Council had adopted this principle, because it was known that several of these sums would not be called on to be expended, and therefore the deficit which was shown at the bottom of the page was not a reality. He might say that he did not share in the gloomy forebodings expressed by several hon members, nor did he feel at all afraid of their financial position. [Hear, hear.] He also desired to point out that in past sessions the principle he had alluded to was adopted by the members of the present Government, and had been generally accepted by the House. Under these circumstances he did not think that the apparent deficit -which appeared need give any alarm. [Hear, hear.] He did not intend to go into because several tton members had done so already, besides trie Provincial Secretary and Secretary for Public "Works. There were one or two other points upon which, however, he would like to speak. The present Government, he understood, intended with a view to economy to do away -with the cost of a college, by utilising the building known as the Normal schools, He would desire to say that, from the first he had a doubt as to whether the establishment of the Normal school was at all a measure either of necessity or prudence. And this, because he thought the people could obtain their teachers from Engl and at a far less cost, and perhaps with better attainments than they could turn out at their Normal school. But while he said this, he must say that he was afraid the present building known as the Normal school was thoroughly unfit for the purposes of the College. It had been built for totally different purposes, and therefore he thought the best way would be to allow the Normal school to be used for its destined purpose, and that the College Jshould be erected elsewhere. Now, with regard to the Museum, he might say that he hoped the Council would not for one moment do anything that would cripple or in any way retard the usefulness of that institution. He had no sympathy with nor could he in the least go any way with the remarks made by the hon member for Rakaia (Mr Jebson) on this subject. [Hear hear.] He trusted that, so far from crippling the museum and rendering nugatory the fine collection there, the Council would, if it saw good grounds for it, increase the grant considerably. | Hear, hear.]

Mr Geay would-not have risen to speak had it not been for the proposal of the Secretary for Public Works as to the railway tariff. Indeed he might say that he almost went the same length as the hon member for Christchurch (Dr Turnbull) that the preseat Government were inclined to tax the people to the exclusion of property. If the museum were the means of culture which hon members asserted it was, he thought the higher classes should be made to contribute towards it by means of a property tax, as they would derive large enough benefits therefrom. The railway charges throughout, he contended, should be raised, as, whenever a reduction was made, there was a corresponding diminution in the revenue. Therefore he hoped the Government wonld impose an increased rate on imports and exports alike. With regard to the

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

land sales, he did not think that the receipts in future years would be anything like those of the past. The hon member for Selwyn on the previous evening had said that for several years the cry of the loss of the land fnnd had been raised, but there was no doubt that it would ere long bs upon them in earnest, and it was as well to be prepared. There were numbers of cases in which money would readily be invested if land could be obtained of "a character warranting the investment. Last year there was a stimulus given to the sale of waste lands by the exceedingly prosperous year for the agricultural farmer and the wool growers, but this year there were none of these, and therefore it was that he thought that the land sales would be very much less than before. He was glad to see that a number of large votes which had been passed for unnecessary purposes were proposed to be omitted by the present Government. [Hear, hear. |

Mr Andrews desired to say a few words on the estimates. He thought that the present Government in taking office had not thought to recline on a bed of roses—[hear, hear]—and he felt that they had done as much as they possibly could. He was glad that the Government had been frank and open with the House, because it was far better that they should know their position properly, and if they had more money than they anticipated it would be so much better. He did not intend to take up the time of the Council with a detail of the grievances of the city of Christchurch, not because he did not feel them, not that he was not prepared to go on with it, but because he thought that the members of the Government were quite as able to discern the claims and wants of the city as he was to point it them out. [Hear, hear. J He might tell the House that he came there not as member for ChristchuTcL only, but as a member of that House prepared to support any measure which would conduce to the general welfare of the province. [Hear, hear.J It was impossible for him to tell the House the absurd questions addressed to him on this subject. There was one gentleman high in authority in the city, or at least he thought so, who had told him that unless he could get from the Government a solemn promise to carry out what they wanted, he (Mr Andrews) ought to resign. Well, he had told that gentleman that the House would only have laughed at him. [Cheers. | Now, with respect to the estimates, he saw an item of £35,000 for surveys. He did not for one moment suppose that the Government, who had taken up so strong a position, would allow such a sum to pass on the estimates unless something practical were done to remedy the present state of things in regard to their surveys—a state of things which, from the revelations made, was something astonishing. When the item came on for discussion he should be . prepared to move the omission of the item altogether, unless some practical steps were taken to remedy the present state of things. It would of course be impossible to do this all at once, or for the province to repudiate or throw up existing engagements, but he wanted to show the House and the aountry the opinion held on it. Respecting the erection of public buildings, he objected to the large sum of £50,000 being placed in the hands of one architect, instead of being put up to contract. [The hon gentleman then proceeded to advocate the use of lime instead of cement for public buildings, advocating the use of Canterbury lime.] Respecting the charitable aid question he must say he felt somewhat pained at the way in which it had been handled. The hon member for Seadown (Mr Turnbull) had said that the present mode of dispensing charitable aid was one way of breaking down the various creeds, but he contended that nothing was so conducive to cant and hypocrisy, or so degrading to anyone, as for old men and women to have to go down on their knees to beg for alms from clergymen. The fact was that the Council should undertake this—[hear, hear] —and not leave it to Jbe dispensed as now. Without wishing to preach a Good Templar sermon, he (Mr Andrews) .jconijended that there was nothing so demoralising, go utterly subversive of manly feelguog as./or people to have to go and beg, aa'they how bad to do, to ministers of religion or others. - The J real fact was that the drinking customs of the colony were . the fertile causes of the claims on the .charitable aid fund. [Hear, hear.] He thought the Government would be all the better for the criticism of the members of the House, and he thought that if this were done they would do well; they could not expect ,to please everybody, but still if they would, only bear and forbear with one another, the Hiause would also forbear with them. | Hear^hcar. 1 ] Mr Joynt would make a few remarks on the general character ojf the estimates, although he did not intend to criticise them closely from a financial jxrint of view, which had been done much more ably by other hon members. He thought that the Government had taken alarm at what appeared to them to be extensive liabilities, and which, from their point of view, they were not able to meet. He feared that the inexperience of the Government had led them to adopt a policy which would not be acceptable to the House It appeared to him that the mode the Government proposed for the adjustment of their accounts was open to objection. He thought it was a pity that the system of classification formerly used in the estimates had not been continued. Had that been done he believed that the House would never adopt the policy of the Government, which he could not but characterise as one of retrogression and reaction. He referred more particularly to the mode of dealing with charitable aid, education, the Museum, and the College. If they adopted the policy the Government intended to initiate, the system of education which they prized so highly, and which was one of which Canterbury might justly be proud, and the system of charitable aid, which had become almost natural, would be abolished, and this in order to meet wb.a.t tiiey supposed to - t>e an. insolvent condition of the province. He believed that the Government would stand by the items of revenue ; but as to those of expenditure, the Government actually proposed to differ from the items recommended by his Honor the Superintendent. Now he £Mr Joynt) did not think that -was a right state of things, and he thought that the more manly course would have been for the Government to ;have said that they were prepared to stand by the estimates as a whole. Whereas, on the contrary, the Government seemed to invite reductions from the Honse ; thus allowing the House to lead them instead of their leading the House, i The Government begin by saying that the province is practically insolvent, and that in order to remedy this the people must bear the burden. | Hear. hear.] In fact the Secretary of Public Works said that there was a certain deficit to be met, and the people must make up their minds to bear additional taxation in order to pay that deficiency. Again, it seemed to be held out that they ought to get rid of liabilities that had been incurred, and to root out institutions that had taken deep root amongst them. One would hardly think that Buch institutions as the Hospital and Charitable Aid should be discontinued and that the education system should be abandoned ; yet that would appear to be the policy of the Government. [" No, no."] He thought he should be able to prove that was the policy. He believed that their policy with regard to education would not only greatly retard the system but would throw it back to a great extent. He thought too, that ail sorts of devices would be resorted to by parents to avoid sending their children to school in order to Jevade the payment of an additional impost. It had been said that those who were directly interested in the education of the young should pay for the education of the working classes. He felt strongly that it was the property classes who were most directly interested in having the children of the working classes educated, and not so much the parents of the children, or even the children themselves. He said this because by being educated the young would become more useful to society ; at large, and thus society would be benefited even more than the children themselves, or even their parents, and therefore education ought to be a national institution, and instead'of retarding the system"of education noweafcablifL d they ought to doevtrytiuug

to assist its progress, rather than do as the Government proposed to do. to throw it back. He was of opinion that, with regard to the charitable aii. the Government were taking an unwise stop in propos'ns to virtually abandon it in six months' time. This in effect was the pist of the Government proposition—the institution was virtually to bo. abandoned and left to the benevolence of the public at large. Or, in the words- of the Provincial Secretary, " The people must exert themselves for the relief of their suffering fellows." He felt strongly that the result of this would be that the poor, the needy. and the siok. would be left to the support of a few who had the will if the? had not the means. He believed that the effect of the Government's plan would be to encourage a system of unblushing mendicancy and pauperism, rather than as at present the relief of decent poverty. He contended that another portion of the Government's policy was nothing more or less than repudiation, he referred more directly to the Museum, and he would refer to the legal aspect of the question, so far as it concerned the policy of the Government and the country. If the good faith of the Government was pledged to carry out that work, be contended that they were bound to complete it. He contended that the good faith of the Government, und of the country was pledged to have this sum revoted and the work carried on. He then referred to the letter of the 31st March, which the hon members on the Government benches said they knew nothing about—in point of fact, they distinctly said that there was no such letter. Now, be would ask, did the Government act fairly by the House with regard to that letter? The Secretary for Public Works said that the previous Government had recommended the acceptance of the tenders of Messrs Tait and England Bros, and this when the letter of the 31st March was not on the table.

The Provincial. Secretary said that the hon member was placing matters in a very unfair light.

The Speaker—The hon member will have au opportunity to reply. Mr Joynt said that he was only quoting facts, and he would ask why did the Government keep back that letter. He regretted that the Provincial Secretary was not in the House, for he (Mr Joynt) would contend that both the conditions annexed to the vote had been fulfilled, for no person could say after reading that letter that an engagement had not been entered into, or that the expenditure of the money had not been authorised. He (Mr Joynt) should be sorry in any other place to take any notice of the speech of the hon member for the Rakaia, because he feltj that alii the civilization and enlightenment of the country would condemn that speech, although there might be circumstances under which it might be vociferously applauded. He (Mr Joynt) would contend that the Museum was a most valuable adjunct to education. It was not a mere luxury, but was a necessity for educating the youth who otherwise could not become acquainted with the productions of other parts of the world. During the last session the Provincial Solicitor had said that when he entered the Museum he was struck with a feeling akin to religious awe when contemplating some of the objects there; and he (Mr Joynt) must say that it would be impossible for many to acquire anything like a good knowledge of natural history without the aid of the collection in the museum, and therefore he thought it a bad policy to repudiate a vote for that institution. He hardly supposed that the Government would expect the Lunatic Asylum to be reproductive, but they did almost go the length of suggesting that the inebriate ward should be so, but they seemed to forget that it contained only one inmate, and the tax would fall upon him very heavily. The hon member for the Rakaia had asserted that the speech of the hon member for the Hcathcote was a series of fallacies. That was a statement that ought to be placed in the same category as the statement made by the hon member regarding the Museum—a mere assertion without proof. With regard to what had been said by the hon member for the Waimate with regard to the sale of the Railways, he would just quote from Hansard to prove that, the hon member in his place in the Upper House, had strongly opposed the Bill to give effect to those sales—[Extracts read] —He contended that it would have been more graceful if the hon member had told the House that he led the opposition, which was the means of causing the Bill to be thrown out. He (Mr Joynt.) might just state that the Premier. Mr Vogel, subsequently carried through the Assembly a 7UII, giving the Province of Otago' £60,000 on account of the railways. He (Mr Joynt) contended that the general tendency of the speechesof the Governmentand the estimates, was that the people must pay, but do not increase the rates on wooljand grain; do not touch property, but let the people bear the burdens; in fact, he must say that nothing had been said by the hon member (Dr Turnbull) which was not warranted by the conduct of the Government. As to the remarks made by the other member (Mr Andrews); he (Mr Joynt) looked upon those remarks as somewhat allegorical; for the hon member seemed to think that there was a want of cohesion on the part of the Government; for, after expatiating on the properties of lime and sand, the hon member 6aid he hoped the members of the Government would hang together. [Laughter.] Well, the speech of the hon member was of a brotherly character; it seemed to almost say—" Be virtuous, be happy;" and he (Mr Joynt) almost expected to hear the hon member say—" And paddle your own canoe." [Cheers and laughter.]

Mr Knight said on carefully examining the estimates he found nothing to induce him to expect that extra taxation was needed. He was surprised that the hon member who had last spoken had not seen that the Government proposed to make up the deficit by not using "thie large sams put clown as re-votes. Xtiis, lie took it, was t_e common sense view to take. They had heard from the present Government that the institutions of the province should be self-supporting • this was no new proposal. The members of the late Government had proposed that the Hospital and Lunatic Asylum should be more selfsupporting, therefore he was surprised to find hon members changing their opinions when they changed their seats. No one could deny the fact that the very large sum expended for charitable aid was monstrous, in a country like this, composed as it was mainly of able-bodied men. 11 hon members said that they should not appeal to the benevolence of the people, then all he could say was that they had better proceed to erect poorhouses and levy a poor rate. [Hear, hear.] He thought the hon member who had just spoken had drawn a very gloomy picture of the present position of the province, and he regretted it, because the hon gentleman's words, as a person in a high position here, would bear great weight ; but he contended, and asserted it, that the figures before them did not bear out so gloomy and wretched a picture. [Hear, hear.] He said as regarded the Museum thathe didnot think a moral engagement had been entered into, If such a thing had been done, then he felt sure the Government and the country would like to see the engagement fully and honorably carried out. [Hear, hear.] As regarded the missing letter, he thought a great deal had been made of it, but he felt sure that the Government, when they came to explain matters, would give the House a clear explanation of the circumstances. As regarded the specimens in the Museum, he thought considerable discretion should be exercised in receiving them, and only specimens taken which would be of use as an educational means. There was, he was free to admit, many specimens which were useless there, and further than this, the management had not been what it should be. He need only refer to tb( Maori House as a case in point. This he must characterise as a sham, done by some one and to please some one, perhaps the curator, but he contended that to spend £800 on this was a mistake. [Hear, hear.] As regarded the proposition of the Government, to turn the Normal school into a college, he quite agreed with it. He might say that he had always op. posed the expenditure on this Normal school and had earned for himself the reputation of being the economical member of the Board

of Education. However, he did not think that the proposal to make the Normal school into a public library was a good one. The shareholders of the Mechanics' Institute hail made a present to the province of this building, and the Government could hardly put the Library elsewhere without returning this ;_:ift to the Rharehrhlers. Much had been madv of the contribution of West Christchnrch to the Normal school, but they could build a school to hold 500 or fiOO children for £2000 or £3000, and no injustice whatever would then be done to rh.Chnstchnrch West ratepayer?. 8.-sHrs this, he staged that the contribution of the West Christchurch district had not been nearly one-sixth of thu cost. [Hear, hear] The Government had said that the Board of | Education had been extravagant, and he was glad to say see that 'th.-y had found it out. [Hear, hear.] But he said the Board of I Education was not to blame, it was the local committees who had been the cause of this extravagance, and he was sorry that the new Education Bill did not contain a provision to do away with the local committees altogether. [Hear, hear.] He could state teases in |which committees, finding that a large sum bad been voted to some other districts, had amended their estimates and sent in a larger sum. '[Hear, hear.] His hon colleague (Mr Tosswill) had put some figures before the House, which shewed the matter in another light, and he was glad to see that he had done so. An hon member had said that they taxed nothing here but children, but he contended that they taxed property for roads, for the erection of their schools, and he hoped ere long to see property taxed to support the maintenance of their schools also. [Cheers.] He should like to see the poll tax made much larger, because it was absurd to say that a laboring man in this province could not afford to educate his children. The time had now come when a property tax was necessary, and he said this because the holders of property were as much, if not more, interested than any other portion of the community. The hon member for Kaiapoi had said that if the poll tax was increased the residents in the country districts would not send their childreu to school. He denied it, because even now, when the tax was only ss, the schools were empty during th* busy season, and the same result only would occur if the tax were doubled, or evm quadrupled, as he should like to see it. He could not at all agree with what had been said about the Museum influencing visitors to stay amongst them. They might go away wi«er, but they certainly would go away sadder men to see so large a sum of money spent in this direction. The remarks of the honmember for Lyttelton that immigrants enquired whether these institutions -.existed were rather too good. As regarded the Road Boards he was glad to see that the present Government proposed to do that justice to the Road Boards which the late Government had neglected. As regards the claims of the municipalities he was surprised to see the very large sums for bridges and streets which were put down in the petitions presented to that House. Therefore he trusted that the granting of money to municipalities would be done with discretion, and not applied to such works as experiments.as to how far water would run on a dead level to supply the fire engines. There were, he reminded the House, parts of the province where railway advantages were not available, and to these he hoped liberal grants would be given. [Hear, hear.] Another thing was as regarded the harbour works, and here he must say that he was sorry to see that the Government wag S9 addicted to bolstering up Lyttelton instead of looking abroad for harbor elsewhere. He saw a vote on the estimates for a survey ol a graving dock in Lyttelton, whereas in Akaroa there were numberless sites naturally adapted for graving docks and slips. He said without any fear of contradiction that the harbor of Lyttelton was not the harbor for the province ©f Canterbury, which he contended Akaroa was. Therefore it was that he hoped some steps would be taken to secure the advantages of railwaycommnnication with Akaroa, because there nature had been bountiful to them, and had placed at their disposal one of the finest harbors in the world. [Hear, hear.] He thought that the time would come ere long when the pretty child of the province would be recognised as it should be instead of as now left out in the cold. As to the position of the province he agreed with the Government that it was not a peculiarly favorable one, and therefore it behoved tbem to cast in their minds how best to meet it. He agreed with the policy of the Government in saying what revote3 they wonld ask the House to grant as a good and sound one. He disagreed with the statement that there was lots of good land unsold. He contended that there was a very limited quantity of good land to be got unless they went to inaccessible places, and he held that persons who bought land there had a fair claim on the Government to make roads to their land. [Laughter.] The estimates, as a whole, were very fair, and he had no fear of the result so long as they had a truly economical Government—not a nominally economical one—sittingon those benches. [Loudcheers.] Mr Fisher said he failed to see that the country was in such a bad position as was attempted to be made out. There was no doubt that it was not the fault of the people that the education system was given to them, and to fix the fees at such a nominal rate ; therefore he intended that it was not policy to give with one hand and take away with the other. The true remedy was to use the pruning knife judiciously, refusing to comply with the extravagant demands of the j committees,or any other persons. [Hear,hear.] If they did not do this the people would not complain if they had to pay. They should, while they had the power, endow these institutions liberally, because the day would come when they could not do so, as the day of provincial institutions was fast drawing to a close. Beyond this he contended that I tfctis cry of tfcie bankruptcy of tbe j>tottxrices, '■ made without facts to bear it out; was likely to have a very injurious effect npon the credit of the colony as a whole. As regarded the question of charitable aid, he said that it had so demoralised the people that not only had they to support their own poor, bat people came from the North Island with their wives and families and had to be supported. [Hear, hear.] Therefore it was necessary that the Government should take the matter into their own hands and see that it was properly administered. f_Hear, hear.] Another item was the expenses of the railway. At present it seemed to him they had general managers and clerks for every mile of railway made. [Hear, hear.] He hoped, however, that in any scheme of retrenchment the old and tried servants would not be passed over to the advantage of new hands. There was a subject of great importance^—viz. the initiation of some definite scheme of general drainage. At present the matter was in a most disorganised state, and the Government should, ! in view of the health of the population, bring forward some scheme of general drainage. The subject of the Museum seemed to be a vexed question; and he might say that he had constantly opposed large votes in that direction. He had been called a Goth and a Vandal, but he looked at it that the money should be expended on works which, in the present state of the province, were far more necessary. [Hear, hear.] There was some quibble about the day on which the contract was signed, but he thought that, as proceedings in this matter had been taken before that time, he should support the vote; if it bad been a new vote he should have opposed it, but under the circumstances he should support the vote. [Cheers ] Sir Ceacropt Wilson rose to assure the hon member (_ r Fisher) that no employe of the railway would be discharged for political considerations. The moment this was done either the Secretary for Public Works left the Government, or he himself would do so. Further than this, he assured the hon member that the General Government did not intend to borrow monty to purchase their railways; all they would get would be a reduction of the sinking funrt and interest. The hon member for Kaiapoi had been very facetious as regarded sand andlime; but he begged to assure the hon member that there was far more lime and cement in the constitution of the present M'uisfry than he was aware of. The hon member for j

Christchurch (Or Turnbull) had had his little joke respecting the financial statement not being worth twopence. Well, the Government thought it was far better for them to spend three or four shillings in the purchase of $tars containing the hon Secretary for Public Works' statement than to pay a large sum of money for the printing of a long speech with a broad margin. It mipht have been better for the printers, but they looked upon it as a saving to the province. [Hear, hear.] The statement of the hon memli-T for Christchurch (Dr Turnbull) that the Ministry of which he (Sir Cracroft Wilson) was the head had benefitted the rich at the expense of the poor, had given him very much pain—more pain than he hid ever experienced in his life. His whole life had been a contradiction of such an assertion, and he boldly and most emphatically contradicted it. " [Hear, hear.] The Council had now before it clear aud straightforward estimates, They had got rid of the vicious system of cutting down more money than they could aftord : and he emphatically said that never should estimates of that character emanate from the present Ministry. [ Hear, hear.]

Mr Bluett said they had heard a great deal about education, which in his opinion was a hobby which some hon members had ridden to death. [Hear, hear.] He was quite prepared to assist to educate the children of the province up to a certain point, but beyond this, if they required it, let the people pay for it. [Hear, hear.] Let them give their children a good English education, and if any more was wanted let their parents pay for it. [Hear, hear.] The late Provincial Solicitor (Mr Joynt) had given them a long dissertation on education, but he didn't believe one word of what he had said. He thought himself a special pleader, and did not expect hon members to believe one word of the yarn he was telling. [Hear, hear.] He was not speaking to hon members, but was attempting to bamboozle those outside.

The Speaker—l think the hon member is going beyond Parliamentary usage. Mr Bluett was very sorry if he had exceeded the limits of debate.but he asserted that the hon gentleman was speaking not to hon members.but to outsiders. [Mr Montgomery—"No, no.''| He said "Yes, yes." [Laughter.] With regard to the museum and college vote he thought that the Government should, under the circumstances, carry out the engagements which had been entered into by the Government. [Hear, hear.] Aa regarded the railways, he thought that they would never be properly managed until a Board of Directors was appointed, with the Secretary for Public Works for the time being at their head. It was impossible for the railways to be managed properly while the persons engaged in their conduct were subject to constant changes by one set of men turning out another set, and until the Board of which he had spoken was appointed they could not hope to see them pay a dividend. He hoped the Government would take this matter into consideration early. There was no doubt that large numbers of persons were employed on the railway for whom employment could be found elsewhere, and he thought that the fault was that they had too many there. The Malvern water supply he thought was a question which should be taken into early consideration. Persons had bought land on the strength of those works, and the Council had voted the amount several times, therefore he hoped the Government would see thoir way clear to carry this out at au early date. [Hear, hear.]

Mr I. Wilson hoped that the Government would see their way clear to keep the railway charges at the presenb rates. As regarded the Road Board grants;"he thought that it was a very good thing that the lato Government had not paid over|the g'art, because it presented the extravagant t-xpen-diture which had been going on. [Hear, hear.] Hehoped that the Government would consider the question of keeping the rates of the railway at the present charges. [Hear, hear.]

The Provincial Secretary, in rising to reply, said that in the course of the remarks he intended to make he should briefly refer to the speeches of the various hon members who had spoken on the subject. First then he would say that his intention so far as he was able was to clearly put before the House and the country the reasons which had induced the Government to come down to the House, and state the necessity which existed for the practice of rigid economy. In referring to the speeches of the hon members who had adversely criticised the proposals of the Government, he might say that he did not intend to attack any one. The Government had expected from the hon gentlemen opposite criticism upon their estimates, and had not been disappointed, and it now remained for him as far as possible' to endeavor to reply to the arguments adduced. He did. not intend to refer to what had been done by the late Government in the past. What he had to say was what the present Government intended to do in the future, and in order to do this it was not necessary for him to refer to the actions of the late Government; that he did not intend to go into. He thought that the Government might fairly say that their estimates as a whole had been very favorably received—[Hear, hear] —a fact which he thought the debate fully proved. The members who had made objections to the estimates of the Government might, he thought, be divided into three classes —one, those who objected to the alteration which had beemade in the arrangement of the schedules. Another objection, upon whieb. great stress had been laid, was in reference to the action the Government had taken regarding the Museum. The third had reference to the proposition of the Government regarding charitable aid. As a whole, however, he repeated that the Government bad cause to congratulate the-nselves upon the favorable manner in which their estimates had been received by that House. [Hear, near.] He would now briefly refer to the speeches of ton members during the debate. Of course when the debate had lasted so long as the present one had, it wonld only be possible for him very briefly to refer to each speech, and he would endeavour so far as be could to xeply to t_o various arguments brought forward. The first speech to which he would refer was that of the hon member for Lincoln (Mr Tosswill). That hon gentleman had called attention to the fact, that in making up the estimates with reference to education the Government had made a mistake: very probably that was so, but he would point out to the House that the Government should not be held solely blameable for this. Taken afc the very best—that was the very best for the honj member for Lincoln all that would be said was that the Government had placed more revenue then was likely to accrue. The amount stated was £23,000, and he (Mr Maskell)had referred to this subject in his financial statement. The fact was that the expenditure on education had been for sometime past—and seemed likely to be—extravagant. In saying this he did not mean to say that the Board of Education had been wilfully extravagant with the money committed to their charge, bnt the fact was that there had not been that check or control over the expenditure which it was necessary there should be. He thought that when he explained how these estimates came, to the Government the Council would see they were not so much to blame in the matter. The facts of the case were simply these: The Government had accepted the offer of the chairman of the Board of Education to go through with them the estimates under that class, and that gentleman had been some considerable time in the Government offices for that purpose. They were, however, not able to get the information from the chairman of the Board which they required- Not that that gentleman was unwilling to give it—far from it. Ho donbt the Government would have been able to have got the information if they had known exactly what to have asked for. The fact was that the committees sent in to the Board of Education the sums that they required, and it was then passed on to the Government. The Government went through a list of school districts, which was on the table of the House, and when they came to such items as these, "Ashburton, site and budding, £700," " Claremout, site aud build- .

ing, £700," it was very clear that these were new districts which were spoken of. Again, when they saw items, such as" Repairs," " Fencing," " Furniture." &c, it was also perfectly clear that these referred to old districts. It was of course impossible that they could refer to anything else. The items, in going through the list, amounted to £11,000 for new school district?, and the remainder of the vote for old. That was how they had anived at the classification. Now. with regard to the proposed sum of £23,000 and the half increased school rate, the Government had no desire —nor, he might say, had they the remotest intention of doing what the hon member for Christchurch (Dr Turnbull) had characterised as grinding the poor, and of preferring property to the general interests of the province. He (Mr Maskell) denied that anything' of this kind could reasonably be laid to the charge of the Government—[Hear ; hear]— He now came to the subject, generally speaking, of education, which had formed so large arTelement in the discussion. The hon member for Christchurch (Dr Turnbull). ■who had spoken of *he grinding down of the poor, had referred also to the subject of school fees. a«d the proposition of the Government to increase them by one half. He felt perfectly certain that the hon member, ■when he m.-.de those remarks, never could for one moment have thought of the amount proposed to be charged for school fee 3. He had said that, to pay these school as proposed by the Government would fee a great hardship on the people of this province. Now let them look into this matter: was there a man in this province at the present time uho would say that Jig could not afford to pay 2jd per week—for that was what it amounted to—for the school fees of his children. [Dr Turnbull—" Plenty."] Well, all he could say was that he thought the hon member must be mistaken. I Hear, hear.] Could he call that grinding down the poor. [•' Question," laughter.] He thought this sufficiently disposed of the charge brought against the Government by the hon gentlemao. Of course there was always a great deal of opposition to be looked for to any Government coming down to propose anything in the shape of taxation; but it was far better for the Government to say at once that their revenue would not meet their expenditure, than to come down and mislead the House as to the true state of affairs. [Hear, hear.] With regard to the grants to municipalities—on which the same hon member had dilated at some length, he would remind him that this would have to come out of revenue, and therefore it depended upon how they found thenrevenue and expenditure agreed as to how much could be given. The hon gentleman had spoken on the subject of endowments. and he might say. as he had stated the other evening, that this was a matter which was now under the consideration of the Government. It must be recollected, however, that there were other municipalities besides Lyttelton and Christchurch whose claims would have to bo considered. As to the remarks of the hen member for Selwyu (Mr Jollie) he need saj but little, as he had touched upon subjeefs which had been spoken of by other hon members during the debate. He now came to;the subject of charitable aid It had been said that it was well administered ; but what he desired to point out to the House was that every year this item has been growing on the people. It had been successively increased from £5000 to £7000. from £7000 to £7500. and this year the estimate sent in by the officer in charge of the department amounted to no less a sum than £10,000. In Otago-a province certainly as important as Canterbury, these institutions were stai ted by private benevolence and subsequently subsidised by the Government. They found on the Otago estimates no such item as charitable aid, aud the same piactice obtained in Victoria and in England. If, therefore, in another province those institutions were so supported, was it not reasonable to suppose that the same might be done in Cant< rbury. The proposal of the Government was that for six months the present system should obtain, and then that the public benevolence should be subsidised by the Government to the extent of £60C0 per annum. They hoped that the public of Canterbury would establish these institutions ; but if not, then the people would have to bear the burden of continuing the present system. When the Appropriation Act was being passed through last session he protested against the expenditure, and expressed a wonder where the Government were going to get it from. As for bankruptcy, the present Government said nothing about it. All they said was, "If you are going on as you have done you will have to levy additional taxation." As to the Capitation Grant, hon members seemed to forget that it was simply a paper item. The province did not get it at all, it was paid over in order to pay their loans. With regard to the valuation and sale of the railways, it is very possible the" late Government would have made a great deal of that, but that would have been a very rotten reed to lean upon, for how could they know what sum they would get for the railways when they did not even know that the Assembly would sanction the sale, but even supposing the Assembly were to pass such a Bill, the Government were not 6ure whether the amount would be paid in cash, or to pay off a loan. The hon member for the Heathcote said he hoped the House would object to an increase of railway tariffs. With respect to that, he would read an extract from a speech of a colleague r»f the hon member in proof that it would have to be considered whether the rates of tariff should not be increased or the number of trains diminished. The Government were of opinion that if the land revenue fell short, and it became necessary to lessen the grants to the Boad Boards, then the grant for building the Mufeum ought also to be discontinued. He might at once say that the mt-rii s or demerits of the Museum had nothing to do with the question at issue. The point was simply this, whether the present Government had acted with a wilful breach of faith in the action they bad taken. This he would say, that whether the Government were right or wrong in the course they bad taken, they acted in accordance with the legal advice of the Provincial Solicitor. The present Governmenthad no objection to the Museum, and certainly not to the Canterbury College, but the Provincial Solicitor, who was the legal adviser of the Government, had distinctly advised that the Audit Act barred the whole matter, and the Government were bound to follow that advice. The hon member for Christchurch asserted that the contract was signed on 31st March. He (Mr Maskell) would read the contract, which was signed on 20th April, 1875, between H. B. Gresson, chairman of the Board of Governors, and the contractors. ["Contract read.] He (Mr Maskell) would state that the Government had no wish to place the Board of Governors in an invidious position. On the contrary, they were peifectly willing to pay any reasonable compensation to the contractors, but the Government had been advised that the vote having lapsed, the clause of the Audit Act acted as a bar and rendered the contract null and void.

Dr TtTBNBULL asked whether the opinion of the Provincial Solicitor was given before or after the discovery of the letter of the 31st March?

The PboVIXCTAL Secbetaby : That has nothing to do with the question. The Government thought it was better for the country to pay reasonable compensation than to expend £14,000* for a luxury and not a necessity. Hon members had said that the Museum was a credit to the province, and no doubt it was, but that was not the light in which they had to look at it. The amount to be expended on the Museum was, in the opinion of the Government, far more urgently required for works of greater necessity. [Hear, hear.] Now, with regard to the proposal to establish the College in the Normal .School, the Government had been twitted by some hon members with wishing to take away from the West Christchurch district a school to which they bad contributed. He might say that the Government fully recognised that if they took the Normal school for the college they would be bounc to erect a district school for West Christchurch. [Hear, fee«Q, **$ he would desire to point out that l ,>j d&&g this tfcey wsia sot tftkiog aw»y the

Normal school from education. They possessed j a very excellent site for the erection of a district school for West Christchurch in the one near the Museum where the college was proposed to be erected, and this site being in the hands of the. Government no large sum of money would require to he paid for one for the proposed school. [Hear, heir.] They did not propose to settle this matter without consultation with the governors of the Canterbury College, as they had no intention of carrying matters with a hisrh hand. The hon member for Kaiapoi had addressed the Council at some length, and it seemed that he had got an idea into his head that the present Government conld do nothing that was right. He had stated that the Government intended to make all the institutions self-supporting, but this was not so. They said with regard to the Lunatic Asylum that lunatics sent to the inebriate ward should not be treated as lunatics, but be made to pay in some degree for their support. This was what they wanted to do. He now came to the remarks of the hon member for Heathcote (Mr Monteomery). That hon gentleman said that there would be no deficit, but he would desire to point out that, do as they would, they would have a deficiency of at least- £200,000 to meet, [Mr Montgomery — Not for the financial year."| "Well, the hon member would give him credit for having said so in the financial statement and the Secretary for Public Works had also said so. Under any circumstances —leaving out the votes which we have placed on one side, and carrying out the proposals we have brought down—we still have a deficiency of £30,C00. Let the hon gentleman do as he likes with the schedules, and he defied him to show any other result than that. The hon member for Heathcote (Mr Fisher) seemed to argue that as we were going to be abolished, we might as well go recklessly into expenditure. Well, he (Mr Maskell) was not so sure that their abolition was so near as the hon member seemed to think; beside?, did he for a moment think that any Government would be entitled to the confidence of the House which would come down and say—"As the General Government is going to abolish us let us make ducks and drakes of the money." He (Mr Maskell) was very much inclined to believe that the hon member had only said this because he was in opposition to the present Government. It was not necessary, he thought, for him longer to detain the House. He had endeavoured to reply seriatim to the various members who bad spoken. [Mr Webb—Respecting the Christchurch railway station ?] His hon friend had reminded him about the Christchurch railway station. What had been done about that was this. The railway manager had recommended that, in order to give facility for traffic, the Christchurch passenger station should be placed on the opposite pide of Colombo street, the expenditure for which would be some £18,000, which included the purchase of some small pieces of land necessary. Looking at the plans submitted by the Railway Engineer to the Government, they had come to the conclusion that it would be better to have the station on the site of the goods shed near the town belt, and it was probable that a sum for this purpose would be brought down on the supplementary estimates. It would involve the removal of the goods shed, and the probable cost would be about £10,000. Of course the matter was still in abeyance, and until the supplementary estimates came down he could say nothing more about it. He had now concluded the remarks he had felt it his duty to make. He bad endeavoured, without giving offence to any one, to explain the position of the Government, and he now begged to move —" That the Speaker do leave the chair, and the House go into committee of supply." The hon gentleman on resuming his seat was greeted with cheers from all sides of the House.

The House then went into committee, Mr Webb in the chair.

In committee the following items were granted—Administrative. £3675 ; Provincial Council. £2175; gaols, £6688 Is lid. Class 5—£23 580 28, police.

Some discussion ensued on this item, during which Mr Joynt bore testimony to the efficiency of the detective force under its present chief. The item was agreed to, and The Chairman reported progress and obtained leave to sit again on Tuesday.

Notices of motion having been given, the House adjourned until noon this day.