PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Press, Volume XXI, Issue 2448, 10 June 1873, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Friday, June 6, 1873. [We have been .requested by the Provincial Secretary to publish the following full repot of the debate ou the notice relative to the Government printing, taken by a shorthand writer specially employed for the purpose by the Government.] DEBATE ON PRINTING.

Mr Hayhubst in moving the motion standing iv his name, said that he had been induced to do so from the fact that the returns called for some time ago showed such a vast difference in the prices paid for printing. In looking over those returns he found that they only referred to about half of the whole amount of printing which the Government were obliged to have done during the year, as occasion arose, and over which they had no control, so that they could not form an exact estimate of it. During the session, for instance, such documents as Notice Papers could not be contracted for. He thought that those returns showed that a vast saving in the cost of printing might be effected. One reason why he had brought forward the motion was that the House might have an opportunity of considering whether it would not be advisable for the Government to do their own printing, for he had every reason to believe, from the manner in which contractors usually acted that if they had a contract for one portion of the work, and the remainder was outside the contract, they would charge very high prices for the latter. There were rumors that matters had taken a course which would have that effect. No doubt hon members had heard the rumors to which he referred. The tender of one printer was refused, except for one small contract ; aud that person had had an interview with the Provincial Secretary on the subject. The House ought to have an explanation with reference to that gentleman waiting upon the Provincial Secretary and in an interview extending over two or three hours, demanding that he should have the printing, or otherwise such pressure would be brought on the Government that they would not hold their seats very long. That fact, if it was true, taken in connection with the high prices the Government had been paying, convinced him that a rast saving would be effected by taking the printing out of the hands of the local firm. They heard a great deal about the freedom of the press, and the freedom of Englishmen : but for one gentleman to come and threaten another in that way was more like slavery than anything else. Hβ had before him a statement of the cost of last year's printing and also an estimate of the cost of printing for this year. The estimate was based on what had already been contracted for, and to that was added the ordinary amount of printing required during the year, which could not be contracted for. The printing last year was done in Christchurch, at a cost of £3,883 18s Gd. This year, the work contracted for already amounted to £2,635, showing a paving on that contract alone, of £1248. They might fairly assume that the contractors for the less amount would naturally not lose money by it, and that they expected to make a reasonable profit out of the transaction. They might also assume that those profits, coupled with the increase of work from year to year, would pay a staff of their own. He apprehended that a staff woulc , not be very expensive, as all the editorial work was done in the Government offices. He should imagine that an intelligent manager and a boy or two, would be a sufficient staff. He hoped thnt the Council would consider the matter from an economical point of view, as well as with a view to keep the Government out of the unfortunate position of being obliged to decide, at the loss perhaps of their offices, whether they would give a contract to a certain individual. Perhaps some hon members might look upon the matter as a very trivial one ; but if they took it hon)e to themselves, and imagined how they would like to be treated in that way as individuals, they would think differently. He would like to refer to another matter, if he were not going beyond the latitude of his motion. There had been great complaints of the defective nature of the reporting of the proceedings of the Council; and, if they had a printing-press of their own, they might, in addition, have their own reporter. The question of employing a special reporter to ieport their proceedings had been discussed, because the present reports were imperfect, and did not actually represent to the public what took place in the Council. That was another reason why some steps should be taken to confine the work within the power of the Governmet, who should have exclusive control over the printing department.

Mr Turnbull had great pleasure in seconding the motion, and he did so on grounds entirely different to those which had beeu advanced by the hon member for Geraldine. He did not look at this matter altogether from an economical point of view, although of coarse the Government were at all times bound to pay attention to economy. He thought that they should be very careful how they interfered with private enterprise ; but he looked upon it in ajfarhigher light, and one which materially affected not only the province but the whole colony. They should do all in their power to secure the independence of the press. If there was one great safeguard, and one important aid to the development and the prosperity of a country, it was the freedom and independence of the press ; and if a reason were sought for the freedom of the people, it ought to be found in the freedom and independence of the press. The system in force here was not at all favorable to such a state of things ; and if it was important that the press should be connected with the success of commercial enterprise, they should be careful to use every means in their power to secure its independence. It appeared to him that this system of contracts had a very demoralising effect. He was not speaking only of the press in this province ; because, if they took the colony right through, they would find that the tone of. the press had been very much lower within the last few years. There were, he was glad to say, praiseworthy exceptions to the mle, but, as a whole, the tone of the press bad very much deteriorated. In past years those connected with the press had been intellectual gladiators, who had spared no cost or trouble, not for the amusement of the people, but for the advancement and well being of the province. The system of Government patronage had sapped the independence of the press, aud had brought it to its present low level. Aβ in lold times there were persons known as " free lances," who gave their services to those who would pay the most, so the gentlemen of the press had placed their pens at the disposal of the highest bidder. He wished to obtain some information from the Provincial Secretary with respect to the rumor which had been referred to by the hon member for Geraldine. If that rumor was correct, he muet say that the Provincial Secretary had failed in his duty to that House, because he should have at once brought the threat under the notice of the Council as an insult offered to the Execucive, and, therefore, an indignity to the whole House, They could all trace the influence of Britain as the greatest of all powers to the freedom from bias of the press. Different religious views, and political views, were of course entertained by various papers, but he was referring to the press generally. Unfortunately, it must be admitted thfet tfce

press had very much deteriorated in ttiia colony and it must, also b « ndmltW that there were no sufficient c, m Z for that deterioration With regard to tt reports of the debates, he thought that if many of the speech** were fully reported some hon. members would cut a queer four Tie did not think there was any Wl ,nt ability in the reporters themselves The r ports of meetings upon important mihiect* were generally very full and comet n manner in which the prose in this colony had been conducted for yenre past indic-ite sufficient amount of ability for nil tl wants of the place. The deterioration Wi not arisen from any want of ability, but f™, indirect causes—as in this ease wher threat was hold out that if such a thine not done, a certain line of action would ho adopted ■:-'• Unless you give UB your pat rou age, we will pursue such a course " It , this official patronage which was ran;,]? 3 sapping and destroying the indcpcnic'nca lf the press m this colony. It was stated tW the tenders sent in by the local papers wt almost identical in amount: iv fact tb were so exceedingly close, that it lootpJ very much like a combination. The cool quence was that there was do choice jj U j V* accept one of those tenders; and, bavin called for tenders, the Government weie,\f thought, perfectly right in accepting them With respect to the rumor which bad beau ieferred to, as soon as his hon. friend member for Geraldine heard of it, and that a threat had been made that every influence would be exerted to deprive the Government of their seats.he determined to bring forward the present resolution. He thought that the rumor was borne out by the action which had been taken by that paper. He was sorry to have to refer to the paper, but he would draw attention to an article which appeared in its issue of the 2tid Juue, where it was stated —a statement which was absolutely untrue—that a compact had been entered into between the Southern members and the Government. He felt bound to state that the Southern members occupied a widely different position to that of other members of the House. They represented a very large tract of country, extending from the liangi. tata to the Waitaki, and it was necessary taking into consideration the present system of accounts—that they should have an op. portunity of conferring together, in order to ascertain the best method in which the funds could be appropriated. That meeting took place on the 14th of May, in that Council Chamber, at a time when some committees were sitting, and they came to the concluaiou to recommend the Government to make a certain appropriation. The hon member for Waimate was chairman of that meeting, and as to any agreement with the Government, he could only Bay that there was nothing of the kind. That recommendation was handed to the Government by one of the lion members for the South, and he was sorry to say that nothing more was heard of it. The hon member for Waimato had asked Inm, just before he went out of town, if any reply had been received ; and in that matter they had to complain of a want of courtesy on the part of the Government. That statement would be corroborated by the hon member for Waimate. If hon members would take the troablo to look at the division lists they would find that the Southern members were as often found in the lobby against the Government as with them. He thought that on iraporant measures the hon member for Wai.nato had nearly always voted against the Government. It would also be found that the Southern members were as frequently opposed to each other as other hon members. He should certain!y be very sorry to ask any honjmemberjfrom that part of the province to vote against his conscientious convictions, The paper which had been referred to had taken up a hostile position towards the Government, and, of course, it had a perfect right to do so ; it was the threat to which he objected. The expression, '• a Government which is going to act as you are will not last for six months," was most improper. For that reason he should beg of the Provincial Secretary to state whether the circumstances which had been described by the hon member for Geraldine did really take place. He thought that if the Gorernment were to take the printing into their own hands, it would prevent any charge being made against the Government of: the day that they were obtaining euppott \>y patronage. He hoped to see the press entirely independent, and no measure which they could take would be more likely to bring about that result than by removing all patronage out of the power of any Government. Whatever the cost might be, it would be amply repaid to the province bf securing what he hoped they would alffftji endeavor to maintain in its strictest integrity—the freedom and independence of tk press. ■ Motion made and question proposed*-' "That in the opinion of this Council it is advisable that stepe should be taken by tha Government for the purpose of ascertaining the desirability of establishing a printing office of its own for the purpose of doing all Government printing." " ■ X (Mr Hayhtost.) Mr KennAWAY, thought that thequestioa with regard to making some alteration? in the present system of printing, was one which ought certainly to be considered by the House and by the Government. When the Government determined to take what was perhaps an extraordinary step, and one which had never beeu taken before, in sending down forme and specifications to Dun« edin, and calling for tenders there, they did not do bo without very good reason. Circumstances which came to the knowledge of the Government made it very plain to them that calling for tenders in this province was a perfect farce, because it did not realise the advantages supposed to be derived from the practice of calling for tenders ; namely, that, on the one hand, everybody 'should have a chance of obtaining the contractual that on the other hand, the persons ealfiflg for tenders should be enabled to get .the work done as cheaply as possible, TfflGs* vernment came unanimously to the decision that calling for tendersiieM without obtaining outside competition would make the system of tendering a perfect fares, .V? therefore they determined, in the intere* of the province to call for tenders outsider the province. They had done bo, attd »* result was before the House; and he thosgp? it showed that the Government were right" l the action they had taken. It was w> doubt undesirable that they should make a practice of having work done out of the province, if they could get it done ©nsagw» terms within the province. In the ptemm instance he considered that the exti*>fi» tt * arily high rates which were demanded i>l the offices in Christchurch, quite 3f l ff the Government in having accepted tnc tenders which were received from pmitcre in Dunedin. The boa members who bad F;' posed and seconded this resolution, Uα inferred to a-certaiu interview wtocbwM"" to have taken place between -bimeemw Kennaway) and one of the propnetor»™J 3 " Lytteltou Times." That interview ta*»J considerable time, from half-past; fb( , twelve o'clock, when he had to office in order to catch the train, iw«v iy. leaving, the gentleman in quffl™"** fto down the street with him, still talk"sg°® l ftf subject. He might say that hiscollesgj-j .* • Provincial Treasurer, was present a * terview. The proprietor, to "hooi »«J tf referred, staled that he had heard watu the intention of the Government to <vj tenders in Dunedin as well aß ' in^, fl U church. He was told that such was Uh-iwo and he then pressed on tho attention". . c Government that it was wrong * n P;"£JL to allow any work to go out of the pro? t advocating the protectionist F£ c '^ rincei all the work bhould be done in.theP»"Tj no matter at what rate. He (Mr.KcnneflJg then put the question to urn P ,a "" y ' fro!3 said-" Supposing the tender*.we.g* b Dunedin are far below those of Chrietob" do you consider the Government uoun accept the Christchurch tenders' he slid, "Yes, I think tbatUieGo*ennD_ are bound to accept the tenders vince." The argument wee some lime upon protectionist P"?%S" t0 •■» hon members who had ei'fken tnreat which was held out at that £% bole He might say that the tenor of j conversation was of Vfi* J£2» i» character; and although the geoileswa

" . o gtated distinctly that he did not qD £fit out as a threat, stilt it sounded v«-rv • a threat. One observation was to $? «A Government -which is going ~as you aTe not exist * or B^x *° ths" Ot course the members of the ■?°£»fnment. when they heard that declared \,°.t they would try it, and that whether v? existed for six minutes or six months, ZZ would carry out this project and break a combination which was injurious to fife interests of the province. They bad r_ e SOj and hon members could judge of J£7 fext'ent to which pressure had been vLoffht to bear upon the Government, by fhe threat contained in the expression that bthe Government would not exist for six Ltbs " The result of that threat had, he Eight, been pretty evident. The « Times," tte proprietor of which came to the Govern«,t had exhibited a very hostile tone Sds them. He did not in the wst complain of any paper taking iTostiletone towards an Executive of which L was a member, because he did not conMer that it did them much harm in the tone-run. He had been as virulently atfcuJed as most governments were, but he did !X think it bad done him much injury ; indeed Tie bad sometimes said that he would lifter a paper opposed than supportedTiim, «it did one good rather than injury. The hon member who seconded the resolution had stated that he (Mr Kennaway) had failed in Ids duty in not having brought the matter tefore the House ; but he must say that he ~as not over sensitive in regard to newspaper attacks. Since he had occupied his present Lotion he bad become callous to attacks of that-nature. In carrying out the decisions c at Bcmse, he had received anonymous letters of a threatening character, and he had as a rule-torn them up and thrown them intS the' fire- Possibly he was too thick skinned in considering that this matter was not of sufficient importance to be brought befoiethe Council. With respect to the resolution jlg^f r he~thought it was advisable to obtain information to. be laid before the Council at its next session, as to the desirability or otherwisepf establishing a Government printingoffice, seeing that they could not get their printing done in the province at a moderate rate; although, at the same timer he objected as much as any one could do, to the money going out of the province. He thought that it was also desirable upon economical grounds. The amount of printing they had to do during the year was quite sufficient to employ a separate office, and the cost would be less flisn' they were actually paying at the present moment. The hon member who seconded the motion had referred to political pressure, and stated that it was injurious to the freedom of the press and the freedom of discussion in that Council, that the newspapers should have anything to do with the printing of official documents. He (Mr Kennaway) thought it was often very inconvenient that newspapers should have any opportunity of obtaining information at the iirinting office, which they would not otherwise get. He remembered that some sessions ago, when the Government sent down to the then Government printing office a list of the proposed grants to road boards, an article appeared long before the papers were laid on the table, containing information which could only hare been obtained from tbat list, and which no hon members, except the Executive, were in possession of. Another instance occurred only fee other day. A document was sent down to the office to be printed for the purpose of being laid on the table of the Council, aod it appeared in the next morning's paper. He received a letter from the editor of the other paper complaining that he had not beeu furnished with a copy. And yet that very document had been published some time before in both papers ! It certainly ehowed a lamentable amount of ignorance on the part of the editors when they were not aware that it had already appeared in their journals. The document he referred to was on an important question with,respect to the Lyttelton Harbor Works. The hon. member who seconded the motion, in alluding to the independence of the press, adduced an article which appeared in one of the papers with respect to certain hon. memIjexs. The House was well aware that all the members were by no means snpporters of the Government; and the Government did not bring any pressure to bear upon them. Iv the '"Star " and the "Times" ie other day. there were articles with re : jsird'to the Public Library, in which it was pointed out that it was the fault of the Government that, through the pressure put upon them by the Southern members, the itanj was not paseed last session. The fact was' that the Government brought down a vote, and on a division were beaten by a majority of two. He did not know that he had ever epoken to the Southern members on the subject. Iα that instance the vote was lostJby two ; and , the hon. members for Bangiora and Papanui—Mr Maude and Mr Williamsj—were amongst those who opposed the item, although they were residents in the qity. He did not blame them, as they had a perfect right to vote in accordance with their opinions; but it was absurd to say the .proposal was defeated owing to the pressure which the Southern members had brought to bear on the Government; and the writer of those articles must have known that it was utter nonsense. He had only alluded to the matter to show that pressure was not "brought to bear npon the Government by the Southern members more than by any other members. Hon members from all parte of the province often came to the Government and said that they should be glad to have certain votes placed in the estimates ; and they had had interviews with the Government on the subject, informing them of the wants of their particular districts. The Government considered the matter, and if they did not think it a right object they declined to put it on the estimates, when it was of course open to any bon member to bring forward a specific motion on the subject. No pressure had ever been brought .to bear on the Government with regard to any questioh which had been before the Council. For the reasons which he had already given he thought that the Government should be placed in a position to consider whether it wae desirable to establish a printing office. That was all that was asked for by the resolution : that the Government be authorised to enquire into the matter and bring the whole subject before the House next session, so that it might be decided, whether the work should be given ont of the province by tender; whether it should be done in the province by tender, at any price which might be demanded; or whether a Government printing-office should be established.

Mr Wi'KN Williams would take the opportunity of drawing attention to a matter which he thought might be altered in a manner which would be beneficial to the province. He observed that the total cost -c€ printing the electoral rolls for 1872 was &1273. Those rolls were sold at Is a.page, wsd the consequence was that at election times it was almost impossible that persons could buy them. The Cbristchurch rolls consisted of, say, ten pages, and the cost woald be 10s each. At an election ten or twelve copies would be the least number that would be of any use to a candidate or liis" committee, but the price was so high that they would not be bought, and conso qaently the great proportion of those rolls feScame simply waste paper, whereas if the price were fixed at 3s or 2s 6d each, there . would be a sale for them. With reference to the political pressure which had been made a kind of battledore and shuttlecock between the Provincial Secretary and the other members who had spoken, be would remind them that hon. members had not forgotten a little episode which took place last session. He thought the Government had a perfect right to exercise their own judgment as to whether they should accept " the lowest tender, whether from Christchurch SfDanedin, and it would afterwards be open Council to deal with the. matter, lite a ?f other question. Contracts for public *cirks were taken by people oat of the pro*|nce, and he did not see why the Government should not be allowed to accept tenders frbsn Dunedin. or Timara, or Kaiapoi, as well SSfroa'Chmtcburcn. ; ' M }it Ak DEEWB wished to say a few words *Uh respect to the remarks of the mover

and the Provincial Secretary, to the effect that there was something like a combination amoLiK t!»e printers here. The Provincial Secretary had said that it was simply a farce calling for tenders in Christchurch. He would ask what was the use of any printing company tendering? He had inquired, early in the session, why it was that noue of the tenders received for printing •'Gazettes " and Notice Papers were accepted. The Provincial Secretary replied that the reason was that there was so little difference between them, but that they had been put in the hands of an expert. He thought that if anything was wanted to prove that there was a Southern caucus, or a Government trumpeter, the Government could not have done a better thiug to establish the fact than they had done in this particular instance. The Council was asked to pass the resolution on the ground that a material saving would be effected. He had endeavored to ascertain the position they were in with respect to the Government printing; and from all the information he could get, it appeared that the printing offices here had not made very much. Whatever printing had been done had at any rate been executed in a respectable manner, by respectable offices, and in such a way as to suit the general convenience of members and the Government. That was a matter to be taken into serious consideration. He thought that the Government were perfectly justified in acting as they Lad done. It was said that they were going to be tremendous savers, but possibly there might be several breaks down over the arrangement, and they might be obliged, after all, to get the persons who tendered here to complete the work ■which had been contracted for in Dunedin. He did not think that such would be the case, as be belived the Dunedin firm was a respectable one, and able to perform the work, but there was a possibility of going too far altogether. If such immense profits were to be made out of this printing, it seemed very strange that they could not induce the people in Dunedin to come here and do the work on the spot. The hon members stated tfcat last year the printing cost some £3800, and that the estimate for this year was £2600, and he thought that would be a very good start, especially if it were true that the work could be done by an overseer aud one or two boys.

Mr Beswick wished to say a few words to corroborate the remarks of his hon colleague with reference to the interview with a proprietor of one of the local newspapers. He was not present at the whole of the interview, but when he did come in the substance of what had taken place was repeated to him. He thought it vras worth while to consider whether a printing office could be established. He quite agreed with the hou member for Timaru that the effect of the present system was to demoralise the local press ; for no 'one could witness the change which had taken place since the work had been done by tender, without seeing that. The hon member for Christchurch seemed to insinuate that the hon member for Geraldine had brought this matter forward as a Government trumpeter, and was acquainted with what was going on in the Executive. He thought the hon member must have been perfectly well aware of what had been done, and must have known that enormous profits had been derived. Those who had tendered at the low rates had done the work better, and he was assured by the clerk in the Provincial Secretary's office that it had been done quicker than it could have been done in Christchurch. Hon members must have observed of late that valuable information which had been laid on the table had not received anj attention at the hands of the press, and that at the same time there had been leading articles taunting the Government with withholding information. He thought it was deeirable that the Government should be authorised to make enquiries and obtain information on the subject. Mr Peacock would not oppose the motion, but should certainly oppose the establishment of a printing office. It would be a very expensive toy, and he did not think it would pay. The Government were quite right in the course they had taken, as they should not pay more than they could help; but he thought that the printing offices in Canterbury had received a lesson, and that on a ;' future occasion they would tender at lower ratee. He did not care how soon provincial [ institutions ceased to exist. The Government had come down the other day and opposed the appointment of a Harbor Board simply because they wanted to r< tain as much power in their hands as possible. Mr Hathttbst, in reply, said that he had brought this question forward not so much from motives of economy, as to secure the : independence of the people. He considered that the press was a very valuable institution. It seemed to be the idea of some hon members that they must not tamper with the press, but that they must allow it to tamper with them. No individual, and no body of men had a right to tamper with him, and no one had a right to tamper with that House or with the Government; aud when he heard the rumour which had been referred to, he was induced to table this motion. The hon member for Christchurch had charged him with being a trumpeter of the Government. He could only say that no hon member troubled .the Government less than he did, and if no hon member gave them more

trouble than he did, the Government certainly

would have little to complain of in that respect; If there was one thing more than another that he derided, it was touting, and

if he got nothing except by touting heehould never get anything at all. If the discussion on this motion was faithfully reported, the country would thoroughly understand how matters stood, and would be able to judge whether any undue pressure was likely to be brought against the Government by a combination of printeru. There was one small contract to the extent of £229 Is, with two or three other small contracts, and any individual who knew anything about the system of tenders would at once say on looking at them, that one contractor had been told off to get the contnct, and that when it was obtained it would be divided between them. The amounts of the tenders sent in for printing the Provincial Gazettes, draft bills, and ordinances, were as nearly as possible the He thought he liad heard it etated in that House that it was the practice for the tenderers to arrange that one ehould get the contract, and that the work should be divided between them. If they were obliged to submit to the Christchurch contractors, it was reallr a farce to call for tenders at all. He was very sorry to find that the Government were compelled, either in self-defence or from motives of economy, to take the course they had adopted. The press, as they were all aware, was a very powerful engine; and even in England the Ministers dreaded its influence. They did not like to have all the papers against them on political subjects, and much more when it was a question of finance. He hoped that the House would adopt this motion, so that the Government should be able to obtain information. He shonld be very sorry to rush into any undertaking in respect to which there was not a reasonable ' prospect of success. There - was a Government printing-office in Wellington, and he had no doubt that as a matter of & s.d. it was not a source of profit, but when ' they could get their own work done in their own office, arid at whatever time they desired, even if the cost was the same, there was a profit. He believed that the Government would be able to do a large amount of Government printing, in addition to the journals and the papers which came before I the Council. There were some forms which all the Road Boards used, which were printed in various offices ; and of coarse the charges were in proportion to those for other work, All those documents might be printed in the Government office, as well as the iorms for collecting rates, &c. He was quite sure that a properly managed printing office" of suffi-cient-strength to do the work required, would not be an expensive undertaking. He could speak with certainty on the matter, ashehadbeen closely connected with a small printing-press. He hoped the House would give the Government- an opportunity of bringing down next session, a scheme for either establishing , a press of their own, or otherwise, as they might think desirable. Motion agreed to.