PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Press, Volume XX, Issue 2305, 20 December 1872, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Thursday, December 19. The .Speaker took the chair at 5 p.m. PKOTiXTIVE WORKS AT THE OPIHI,

Turnbull moved the House into committee to consider the following resolution : —"That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place on the supplementary estimates a sum not exceeding £250, for protective works ou the south bank of the Opiui : such sum to be supplemented by an fqiial amount to be raised by owners and holders of land affected by oveiflow." The motion was agreed to, and the House went into committee. Iv committee. Mr Turnbull moved his resolution, which was agreed to, reported to the House, and adopted. HONORARIUM TO MR THORNTON. Mr Kennaway moved that the House go into committee to consider the following resolution :—" That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place on the supplementary estimates a sum not exceeding £200 as an honorarium to be paid to George Thornton, Esq., C.E., in consideration of the special services he has rendered as engineer in the construction of the Northern Railway to Rangiora." In moving the resolution, he thought that hon. members were pretty well aware how the construction of the Northern Railway had been carried out, and from the first Mr Thornton had been appointed engineer of the line. From May, 1871, the line had been under Mr Thornton's control, and the specifications, &c, being also in his hands, the w«rk was very much increased, and this, while he was only receiving the salary as Provincial Eugineer, aud half of this was recouped to the province by the General Government, so that Mr Thornton had been actually performing 1 the duties of Provincial Engineer aud Railway Engineer, at a salary of £300 per annum. Every one would admit that the work had been carried out by Mr Thornton in an efficient manner. He might say that Mr Thornton had beeu asked to make an estimate of the cost of t he Northern railway, which he estimated at £92.r.00, and the actual cost had been under £85.000. Ever since the line had been in course of construction Mr Thornton had been the working engineer, and all the specifications had been prepared by him in his own handwriting. Then, it must be recollected that railways here were done on a different system from elsewhere, as the system of small contracts had been brought into force by that Council, instead of as elsewhere the work being let in one large contract. Hon members would thus see that this entailed a very large amount of extra labor on the part of the engineer, infinitely more so than if the railway had been made under one large contract. Besides this the whole of the engineering woik of the province had been carried out by him —the Lyttelton harbor works—the Rakaia and Selwyn bridges, and other smaller works. He did not know that he could say much more; he had, he thought, advanced quite sufficient reasons to induce the Council to vote this, as a recognition of his services in connection with the Northern railway. He would read to the House a letter received from the General Government, under date Nov. 21. The letter was from the Hon Colonial Secretary (Mr Hall), and was as follows :—

" Colonial Secretary's Office, " Wellington, November 21, 1872

" Sir, —I have the honor to inform you that upon the completion of the works on the Addington aDd Rangiora railway the services of Mr Thornton will not further be required.

" I take this opportunity of expressing to your Honor the thanks of the Government for the readiness with which. Mr Thornton's services were placed at the disposal of this department, and of stating that the Engineer in Chief is thoroughly satisfied with the manner in which Mr Thornton has carried oat the work placed in his hands.

" I have the honor to be, sir, " Youi Honor's obedient servant, " John Hall." " His Honor the Superintendent of Canterbury."

He thought that the House would not object, after hearing that expression of opinion, to vote this small token of recognition to a gentleman who had rendered such services in regard to the railway.

Mr Maude would like, before the matter was decided, to hear some reasons from the Government, why they had adopted the somewhat unusual course of sending down this amount in the form in which it was brought before the House. He should like to know why the amount had not been put on the general or supplementary estimates. [Hear.]

Mr Bbswick would desire to point out to the hon member that this was not without precedents

Mr Tosswill would oppose the vote, and this without any personal feeling in the matter. He objected to the remarks of the hon Provincial Secretary as to the satisfacfactory manner in which this officer had carried out the duties of his office. He would wish to contradict this, as he did not think the advice given by the Provincial Engineer relative to the letting of the maimenance of the Northern line to a contractor, without it being put up to public tender, was satisfactory. He would wish to say a few words before the motion was put, as to the manner in which the officer in question had discharged his duties. He would like to refer to the Temph-ton well—["No, no," and hear, hear.] Mr Cowlishaw—Sir: I rise to a point of order. The motion is relative to Mr Thornton's services in connection with the Northern railway, and I wish to ask your ruling as to whether the hon member eau travel outside the motion.

Mr Tosswill- Sir : I will also speak to a point of order. The question before theHouse is, that an honorarium should be voted to a public officer, and in discussing the question I am perfectly right, I take it, in bringing forward any cases of neglect of duty, and I can cite cases in support of this. [Hear, hear.]

The Speakeh—rln matters of this kind, on a motion for my leaving the chair, there is always a large latitude allowed. I think that the hon. member is perfectly in order to refer to any cases, as the name of the officer is before the House.

Mr Tosswill then proceed to say that he was quite sure Mr Thornton had not had time enough to carry out the duties of his office as Provincial Engineer, and he would like to refer to the manner in which the public money had been wasted, as £50 had been spent upon what any private individual could pet done for £20. Before he sat down he would like to say that he regretted very much {hat the Government had sent thia motion in the manner they had, as when any member found that the public money was being wasted he thought that he'deserved the thanks of the Government instead of being jeered at by them. Mr Beswick wished to say that the Government did not at all jeer at the hon member. Mr Peacock would support this motion, because he thought it was in support of a principle. He looked back, and he found that Mr Dobson had received a very much larger honorarium than this, and hon members would admit that that gentleman had made infinitely more mistakes than the present Provincial Engineer. Mr Thornton had given up his time in a manner deserving the highest praise, as, in addition to his work as Provincial Engineer, he had also had to discharge the duties of Resident Engineer. He should support the vote.

Mr Enys said he should have supported an increase of salary, but he did not like the way in which the Government had brought th's down. If they agreed to honorariums like this, jhey would never know when it was going to stop. On principle, he should vote agai__t tbe motion.

The Hon Col. Brett said that he should support the vote, as he felt certain that the gentlemen referred to was one of the most *eaious and devoted public servants the province possessed ; and he hoped the House would agree to pass this small honorarium to a public officer who had done his duty faithfully and well. Mr Turnbcll supported the motion, as he felt that they would not be acting rightly in refusing to recognise the services of an officer

who had done his duty so well as Mr Thornton.

Mr Joynt said he wished to deprecate most strongly the remarks which h.id b en made as-to the course he (Mr Joynt) had thought it his duty to take iv respect to the officer iv question. He had been told by the Provincial Secretary and the hon member for Papanui that he wasmakincra violent personal attack upon this officer. Now it seemed to him that this was very undesirable, as it would very likely lead to hon members being intimidated from the fear of being supposed to have a bias iv their minds against an individual. However, he raitcht say that he had no fears upon this point, and In: should spoak his mind on the snl.jeet freely. He intended to repeat that criticism this evening. They had boou asked to vote the sum of £200 as an honorarium to Mr Thornton for his special services in connection with the Northern railway, but they were also asked by the hon. member for Papanui (Mr Peacock) to vote this because Mr Thornton had 6lept a night in the tuunel. [Laughter.] [Mr Peacock —■' I said worked at night in the tunnel."] Well, perhaps Mr Thornton found it pleasanter and. cooler in there than in his office, but it was a matter of taste. At any rate he hardly saw that his was a reason for their voting the honorarium of £200 to Mr Thornton. They had a very efficient officer in the shape of the Clerk of the Works (Mr Martindale), and it hardly required Mr Thornton to sleep or work in the tunnel. He must say that he regretted very much the action taken by the Government in the matter, by attempting to check, and stop the discussion upon the conduct of this officer, as shown by their interruption to the hon member for Riccarton (Mr Tosswill). He did not care one jot for the attempt of the Government to check discussion ; but he should, as a member of that House, raise his voice to oppose this vote of public money: he should also criticise the conduct of the officer iv question. He would remind hon members that Mr Thornton himself attributed the oscillation on the Northern railway to the faulty condition of the permannet way. This, is seemed to him, was a confession out of the mouth ot the officer himself that he had not done his duty in looking* after the state of the permanent way. With respect to the acceptance of Mr Wright's tenders for the maintenance of the pennant way, he, and he believed other hon members, understood the Government to say on the previous evening, that Mr Thornton could not estimate the amount of the maintenance, and yet he had certified in the tersest possible mauner that Mr Wright's tenders were reasonable, while at the same time the Government said that he could not have known anything about it. [Mr BESwick .* The hon member is misquoting mc ; I did not say so.] Well, the hon Provincial Treasurer was one of those gentlemen who could not be quoted. He wished to say that he had formed his idea of the matter, and he thought that there were a number of gentlemen in Mr Thornton's office, his subordinates, who were far more entitled to the credit of the work than the engineer was himself. [-'No, no," and "Hear."] He would not go further than this, but would say that he did not care what was said of his action in the matter, as he had discharged his duty so far as he could.

Mr Kennaway said that he was glad that the motion had given the hon member for Kaiapoi an opportunity of explaining what he had said in reference to the officer in question on the preceding eveuing. He had not heard anything against this resolution, nor could he think that the House would weigh these small matters which had been brought forward by hon members against the large special services which had been rendered by the Provincial Engineer. He very much regretted that the hon member for Kaiapoi should have said such a thing as that Mr Thornton's subordinates were more to be praised for the success of the work than he was himself. He said that this was a cruel attack upon an officer who had served the province so efficiently and well. Against the criticisms of the hon member for Kaiapoi and the hon member for Riccarton, he would put the opinion of the Engineer-in chief, who had said that he was thoroughly satisfied with the manner in which Mr Thornton had carried out the work. He would point out to hon members that this was one of the cheapest lines of railway iv New Zealand, and had been cited in the General Assembly as a specimen of how cheaply they could make the railways in Canterbury. He would leave the matter in the hands of the House, merely remarking that the opinion of the Eugineer-in-chief was placed against those of the hon. members for Kaiapoi arid Riccarton. The question, on being put, was declared to be carried on the voices. Mr MAUDE demanded a division, which took place with the following result:— Ayes ... ... 15 Noes ... 12 Majority for the motion ... 3 The House then went into committee on the motion. In committee, Mr Maude said that on the Railways' Bill there was an item of £92.000 on the schedule for the railway from Addington to Kangiora, but in the Railways' Act, 1872, there was an additional £10,000 asked for on account of this railway, on the ground that the expenses were greater than "was anticipatedr He should like to ask how thi* was?

Mr Kennaway said that he could easily explain this, as the engineer's estimates vrere not for the purchase of land, but simply for the; construction. There were a, number of claims for land which had come in, notably the one at Kaiapoi, in the matter of the Keetley claim. [Hear, hear,' and laughter]

Mr Fisher said that if the engineer had done his work as- Provincial Engineer as well as Railway Engineer, and .the Government had received half the salary back, it was a matter of right that they should pay it. ! Mr Kennaway said thai; immediately after the passing of the * and Public Works Act, the General Governtnent had refunded half the' engineer's salary: [Hear, hear.]

Mr PABKEB and Mr PEACOCK having Addressed the committee; ■'• ■- '■■-,

Mr Tosswill, amidst ironical cheers and interruptions from the Government benches, again expressed his intention of voting against the motion.

Mr Knight held that it wpuld not be Tight for the Government to pocket the refund of railway paid by the General Government, and further than this he thought it was only right that' they should pay the engineer for working over hours. h<-ar.)

Mr Jollie said that he might say that from a lengthened experience of Mr Thornton's work he bad generally carried Out his work in a highly satisfactory manner. (Hear, hear.) He would, however, wish to say that Mr Thornton had received a very great deal of assistance from various officials during his work on the Northern railway;: He: (Mr Jollie) had opposed the going into committee because it did not seem to him that the granting of hoporarjums was a proper course to pursue, jf an officer did his work well it would be the proper course to bring down an increase of salary —(hear, hear,) and he thought that by voting this honorarium to the exclusion of other officers in the public service, they would be putting a slight upon officers in the public service who were quite as efficient and zealous as Mr Thornton. [Hear, bear]

Mr Maskell had voted for going into committee on the motion, but he should oppose the motion now. [Hear, hear.] It seemed to him that it would be the proper way to bring down an increase of salary rather than an honorarium. He would vote with very great pleasure for an increase of salary, but he should oppose this motion because the principle was bad.

Mr Duncan "said that he placed a great deal of reliance on the opinion of Mr Jollie as to Mr Thornton's services. He felt that the honorarium proposed was a very small mark of the appreciation o_,the Council of the extra work performed by Mr Thornton. [Hear, hear.] Mr Jollie said that there appeared to be some misunderstanding as to the extra work performed by Mr Thornton. Mr Thornton when he took office agreed to d j the work of

the office of Provincial Engineer and Railway Engiuecr. aud he had done nothing outside of this agreement. [Hear, hear.]

Mr Kennaway wished to say that this wa-: a special service.

Mr Maude said that Mr Kennaway had not explained to him how it came about that the General Assembly was asked to vote £10.000 more for this line.

Mr Kennaway sa\l that this was the estimate of tho engineer for materials and construction £92,000, and it had nothing to do with land.

Mr Wynx Williams wished to point out. out that the hon. Provincial Secretary was totally in error iv the statement he had just made Hon. members would fjcollect that the amount estimated for the line brought before the House was £"7,000 for construction and £15,000 for purchase of laud, making £92.000 in all. [Hear, hear.] With regard to the matter under discussion he would say that really the refund of the railway by the General Government was no saving at all, as had been supposed by hon members, as they simply paid their share of the work performed. He could not at all see why Mr Thornton was entitled to this houorarium, as if this was carried it was just as feasible for the Government to present gold watches to each of the gentlemen who had assisted Mr Thornton in the matter.

Mr Kennaway said that his figures had been challenged by the hon member for Papanui (Mr Wynn Williams) but he had before him a blue-book containing the detailed estimate of the cost of the line from Addington to Rangiora, signed by G. Thornton, in which the total was made up to £92,543, and in no one of the items was there any mention of the purchase of laud. [Hear.] He thought hon members should be careful in making statements such as the hou member for Papanui (Mr Williams) had made.

Mr Williams said he spoke from memory, and did not impute any inteution on the part of the Provincial Secretary to mislead the committee. The motion waa then put and declared to be carried on the voices. Mr Joynt demanded a divison, which took place as follows :— Ayes ... ... ... ... 14 Noes 12 Majority for the motion ... 2 The motion was therefore carried. The following is the division list: — Ayes, 14—Messrs Beswick, Brett, Cowlishaw, Delamain, Duncan, Fisher, Healey, Inglis, Kennaway, Knight, Ormsby, Peacock, Turnbull, Westenra. Noes, 12— Messrs S. P. Andrews, Buchanan, Euys, Hayhurst, Jollie, Joynt, Maskell, Maude, Pempg, Ehodes, Tosswill, and Williams, The resolution was then reported to the House and adopted. The House then adjourned for half-au-hour. On the House resuming, PRE-EMPTIVE RIGHTS. Mr Maskell asked the Government, without notice, whether it was a fact that a gentleman wished to purchase 2000 acres of land, a portion of which was held under an improvement pre-emptive right. The gentleman was not allowed to purchase, *but the holder of the pre-emptive right was allowed to purchase before this. He (Mr Maskell) had been told that the matter would not be allowed to rest there, but he wanted to know what steps the Government intended to take with regard to a resolution passed in the earlier period of the session having "reference to the subject of pre-emptive rights. Mr Kennaway said that the Government intended to give effect to the resolution passed in the early part of the session. EAST MALVERN DISTRICT. Mr Enys moved—" That the Superintendent be requested to proclaim the East Malvern district an agricultural district. The meef*ng was agreed to on the voices without discussion. DRAINAGE OP THE HEATHCOTE AND SPREYDON DISTRICTS. Mr Fisher moved that the House go into committee to consider the following resolution : —"That his Honor the Superinten*dent be respectfully requested to place upon the supplementary estimates a sum not exceeding £iOOO (one thousand pounds) for the drainage of the Heathcote and Spreydon Road Board districts. Mr Cowlishaw seconded the motion, which was agreed to on the voices. In committee, Mr Fisher moved his resolution. Mr Duncan moved as an amendment the addition of the following words—'• In consideration of the portion of the districts affected by the said drain levying the maximum special rate allowed by the Eoad Board Ordinance." After a lengthened discussion, Mr : Duncan's amendment was carried on the voices. The resolution as amended was then put to the committee and declared to be carried on the voices. ' Mr Maude demanded a division, which took place with the following resolution— Ayes ..*. ... 14 Noes ... ... 12 Majority for the resolution ... 2 The resolution was therefore agreed to, reported to the House and adopted. BRIDGE OVER THE STYX. V • Mr PEACOCK moved that the House go into ''committee-to consider the following resolution—"That a respectful address be presented to bis Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to place on tLe supplementary estimates asum not exceeding £200 for . the purpose of building a bridge over the River, Styx.',' ,: The motion for going into committee was . agreed to on the voices without discussion. In committee, Mi* Peacock moved the motion standing in -hisHame. ■ '■'.:';. ',^;.':.>; -.y.., Mr Jollie moved "That.the chairman report progress." He thought that some fnrthei information should bo given, On.this matter. The motion for reporting progress was lost on the voices. ' V•• . Mt Enys moved. "• That, the-figure '2' be struck out. in the amount, and the figure ;'■_'. substituted , making the amouut £100 instead of £200." ._ The amendment was declared to be negatived on the voices. Mr Enys demanded a division, whieb" took place as follows :— ** ... ... ■'• *.*Z''- i: ii. v ' 8 .7 Noes ,».-. ~. 21 Ayes—Messrs Enys (teller), Jollie (teller),; and Inglis. c • :'-\ - The amendh-entwas therefore .negatived. :--- ; -?J'_t^__»lbal. resolution was then put to the com_aittee and "declared to be cairiedson the voices. ' ' ; A division was demanded, but on the question being ! put, after the closing of the doors, the,demand was withdrawn. The resolution was then agreed to,Teported' to the House and adopted. ,_ COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The House went into Committee of Supply when the following items were passed:— , Honorarium to Mr G. Thornton, £200; grant in aid of exhibition of fiax machinery £400. ■ : On this item being put The Hon Col Brett said he wished to know whose property the machines would be at the conclusion of the exhibition. (Laughter.) He thought this was a piece of extravagance, and he should vote against it. Mr Kennaway said that the machinery exhibited would belong to the exhibitors of opur6e. The item, on. being put to the House, was declared to be negatived on the voices. Mr Andrews demanded a division, which took place with the following result :— Ayes ... .'.'. H Noes ... ' ... ... [,* 14 The item was therefore negatived. The following items were then passed:— Heathcote and: Spreydon districts, £l(Xr; protective *wot_-._; Opihi, £250 ; Sty* bridge, £200.

The Chairman" then reported progress. director of the museum.

Mr Maude asked for leave to amend his resolution on the subject as follows—That the Government be requested, in increasing the salary of the Director of the Museum to £600 per annum, ou payment tv the trustees

of that sum, to require that his w hnl» ♦• be devoted to the Provincial servic- m ° that, for such salary, he shall dcliv ?-' and year tluve courses of \ M . tarw llur f' V «J7 terms of the New Zealand University any collegiate body iv the Province of p ° f teitiury that may represent or occu„, T place of the University, dS may be or* tho by that body. '' J b ° Panted The Speaker ruled that the hon m mhpr was not in order in moving the alteration J the motion. "'won of Mr Maude said he would withdraw 1,----request to be allowed to alter the rS; h " and would «k if he could move the*& resolution. w "_uiai The Speaker ruled that h e could * It was an alteration of the terms o£ th,* *f of the Council. s « «w vote The motion then lapsed. THIRD READING.

lioad9 finance Amend ment Ordinance, 1872, was read a thir?S_ and passed. uo » RACECOURSE RESERVE ORDINANCE AMRxm MENT BILL. **«.]>• On the third reading of this Bill com'n_ on, ""Ug

Mr Kmght persistently opposed thettito reading of the Bill as an invasionof* rights of the public. 0t th <* Mr Parker having replied to Mr Knirtf. remarks, *"_uja The question was put that the Bill be „,,.- read a third timo, and declared to be rW tived on the voices. "*■ Mr Parker demanded a division vrtiM, took place as follows :— ' WtHoll Ayes g Noes "" „

Majority against third reading 3 The following was the division list •— Ayes, B—Hou Col Brett, Enys Kennawn Maude, Parker. Perring. Rhodes,'and Web?'Noes, 11—Messrs Andrews. Beswii-J Dixon, Duncan, Fisher, Hayhurst w ' Knight, Maskell, Ormsby, and Turnbull The Rill waa, therefore, shelved. TESTING BOILERS OP LOCOMOTIVKB Mr Webb moved—That iv the opinio- „r this Council it is desirable to procure improper appliances for testing the boilers *r locomotives and cranes used on theCantpr bury railways wharves, and that they be periodically tested. J w

After some discussion, the motion m agreed to on the voices. "

TIMBER CUTTING LICENSES Mr Perking moved-That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested hi proclamation to revoke bis pndaoatian 3 the sth of February, 1872, with xitwbfiS granting of Timber-Cutting Lfeeriiofiff and that he be requested, by such new Proclamation, to define particularly the forests and districts of the province within which it is undesirable that Timbet-CuUin_ Licenses should be granted.

After some discussion the motion was agreed to on the voices.

SCHOOL OF AGRICULTURE. The debate on the following resolution was ' resumed—That his Honor tho Superintm- . tendent be respectfully requested to reserve • 100,000 acres of purely pastoral land ia one or more blocks within the province, as an ; eudotvment for a school of agriculture, such j reserves to be held, as regards the occupiers and owners of the same, in a similar manner t to that under which the reserves for the ' school of technical science are now held , That such endowment should be vested in a Board of Agriculture of not less than five uor more than eight gentlemen to be appointed by the Provincial Council. ;,:-_; Mr Inglis suggested that the mover of the ' resolution, the hon member for Lincoln (Mr 1 Knight) should allow the insertion after the words '• school of agriculture " of the words " in connection with the Provincial College." He would move •the*ih-ertioa of the words he had read. Mr Knight said if the words were inserted, he would ask leave to withdraw his resolution. The amendment was negatived on the voices. 1 The original resolution was then put, find declared to be carried on the voices. Mr Parker demanded-adivi-iou, which took place as follows :— Ayes ... ... „. ... l_ Noes * ....'■ "... ••'• ;.'.•'' Zy.ii'^-ui The resolution was therefore,carried. LYTTELTON HABBOfI. LOAN' ACK In the adjourned debate on the resolution "That his Excellency the, Governor be respectfully requested to issiie ' a p_ool_m_- ( tion declaring that ; the Lyttelton Harbor Woiks Loan Act, 1872, shall come into opera* , tion on such day as may be fixed in accord* ance with the provisions of section 20 of the said Actj" . ~ Mr Cowlishaw briefly explained the pro- „ visions of the Act. . The motion was agreed to. i MESSAGE FBOAT HIS /hOJIOK THB BVPSW- ''.."" • TENDENT. The Speak-Je announced that hefefli_ t ;e« ceived a message from hia Honor intendent transmitting the Apprdbnsraoa Bill, 1872-3. ' On the motion of Mr KENNAWAY, the' Bill was read a first time. ..-•! , , ~.;•■.-• - .- On the motionJo-iheßecondjeading,™ Mr Maude said—Sir, I shall avail myself , of the matipß forthe second reading of the" _vpptoprikipnpill . affords mc for,making tberejnark-1 had anticipated making when your ruling,Jsjr, to . which I am bound m Z moving the resolution which .1 had placed on the order paper. The-Oouneil decided on the motion of the Government to provide funds to increase the salary paid to the Director of the Museum from *600-to 4600 per i ■ annum, and there were cerlaihco-ditioirfttpon which the Government accepted the vote, and on which I i think it better that there should be a clear .understanding, and that there Bhbuldrbe; /no difficulty bettafte? in referring to the terms under which the Government for and obtained thi» vote. 1 speak"" subject \o correctiob,' blit the hon member at the he_d 4iihe Government distinctly th&p if j tha sum of £60f> was voted, it was t© inolude, not merely what is termed. ra ,the - printed estimates,, travelling af-b the delivery of such courses of lecturea «... the Collegiate.Union, were instituting, and 7 for wine- tne general lecturers : were •» no* being paia at the rate, of MQ& v *,petn annum, the - director.of the Museum' lieicg »«?** amongst* 1 the lecturers I speak of; ! _e>a lßO further that the whole~of the director's services would be given to the province aid that he was not to receive wQriN? tion from the General Qoverimimt put into his' hands by ihem; may mention was specially alluded to by tn*** hon and gallant oolon'el, the* member jo* Courtenay, as an extraneous eouroe ot $??° la " ment whichithe director received in addition to the salary voted by the Council. X°«l if we are clear ou this ground, I will proceeo to remark, that the necessity "feff baring a proper understanding bnthis matter ifl W™ forced on my midd, from the twj that it has,come to my knowledge thjit already there are reasons to apprehend aaim" culty between the Director in bis capacity" one of the lecturers and the Collegiate Umou as to the payments for the lectures given* The state of the case, as I am inf°»™ e< J'„ this. The Collegiate Union has nndertakea the distribution of funds devoted to thei parposes of giving certain courses of Gentlemen have undertaken to deliver tne» lectures, and they receive as remuneraiw the salaiy of £100 per annum, for giving natures twice a wpek during three-terms "»■•" which the .year is divided. For £!?*Vs present time they have been paid £33 es ?<->,*«- ------the fees from each student attendingw&ica are at present lecturer-* are :—-Mr Hi. J. ian_reui " . history; Dr Powell, chemistry; » r geology; Mr Worthy, classics; Mr modern languag i deed .scarcely say that these geuWejMf have undertaken this work in a public; pirn, and that the remuneration is little more w» nomibai. I understand that KfJ 1 . 1 *". SJJ been given during one term • of weeks, and another term of eigbt weeKS , « that Dr Haast only commenced his «»* during the term of eight weeks. * b °**?L did lecture received payment for tne nn. term at the rate of £100 per .annum. U>o ever, the Collegiate Dniou ordered l^ to be niad, as before to the *TW

the recent term,, of. £36 fig 8d each, together with the students' fees. t may mention here that the lecturer in modern history, Mr Tancred. giv.*s his lectures gratis, aud declines to draw salary at o]l. All the lecturers accepted iheir several payments with the exception of Dr Haast, who conceived himself entitled to the pnyment of the whole year's salary of £100. and I am informed declined to take anythiug ghort of this. Now let mc tell the Council that this is public money, voted for the purposes of education ; it matters little whether it comes from the provincial purse or from the Colonial Government. As a fact, the province has voted £3.50 to the Collegiate Union. When therefore the Council votes an increase of £100 to the Director of the Museum as an addition to his salary, and the Government takes the vote on the condition that the iucrease is to include the delivery of lectures, for which at present the Collegiate Union is paying £100 per annum. The Council is relieving the Union from the draw upon its funds to this exient, and it is surely not expected that this £100 should be paid by the Union forthwith, and the vote of he Council remain the same. lam aware that a very considerable section of the public, aj well as many members of this Council, view with dissatisfaction the laxity which has stamped from the very first the arrangements which have been made with the learned gentleman to secure his services, and I represent a very Wide-spread desire that whatever bargain is now made should be distinctly recorded by the Government. The value of the services to be paid for is of course a matter of opinion. I do not discuss this ' now, but I desire to have the terms under which the vote was given the other evening definitely expressed, so that when we are asked at a future time to vote a further sum we may know what it is to be for. The prospect of our being called upon to provide further funds is not very remote, for I observe a paragraph in the report of the trustees to thejfollowingeffect— '* The trustees call the attention of the Provincial Government to the fact that the valuable collections are left unprotected during the night, and that for this and other reasons it would be useful that as early as circumstances would admit a dwelling-house for the director should be erected in the immediate vicinity of the museum." ' I wish also to point out to the Council that the proposal now before it is one that is in accord with the wishes and views of the director himself. I have the report and evidence taken before the select committee of this Council on the Museum and Library, in session 34. It is dated October 27, 1870. These are the words of the director in his evidence. "I consider that the annual expense of the Museum, used for scientific and educational purposes, ought not to be less than £600 for a director, including a lectureship or professorship, £200 for a taxidermist, kc, kc" And further on—" Duties of director to collect, classify, and carry on a regular system of exchanges. He also ought to undertake the supervision of a public library when founded. Any sum received either from the General Government or the New Zealand University Council, in addition to my salary received' by mc for lectures, has to be refunded to the province or to the trustees, in order that other lectureships might be endowed with such amount or amounts" ; and again, "I could deliver the lectures in geology and palaeontology, as. well as other branches of science connected with''-my particular line of study." This evidence further appears to have been read over and signed as correct by the Directors. If, therefore, this is the understanding upon which the matter rested in 1870, and if it is the understanding on .vhich the Council voted the other night, it will not necessitate any further reason from mc to induce the Council to accept the resolution. *->ut one word before I have done. We have laid the foundations of what is now, and will be; a great and useful institution— something that will mark this province as occupying a high place amongst the communities of the. Australian colonies. The

institution bas ;tbe good wishes of the publicr May I suggest to the trustees, without disrespect, that one great object is to continue to keep . alive those good wishes. jTHat tbere-,is at least one anomaly ,in their

present position which they ought to remove, j.-1.-tneftn-.that the Director occupies the posi--;tion •«£ a trnstee, together with that of a ipaid subordinate officer of the trustees. There cißaatt be occasiotHs on which such a position : must be embarrassing to; both parties. And •jmaylsuggest to the. Director, who must be * equally anxious to secure the public goodwill, ithat,; now that; he has a liberal salary, he : should, eschew the example of Little Oliver, and not ask for any more. - . Thesecond reading of the Appropriation Bill was then carried on the voices, and the House went into committee to consider it. Iri committee considerable discussion ensued on the second clause, Messrs Inglis vand. Parker objecting, to the appropriation being taken for so long a term. On the motion for the passing of the clause being put to the committee, it was declared to be negatived. Mr Cowlishaw demanded a division, which took place as foUows :— Ayes'"'"'".'..' ... ... ... 8 ~.Noes,: :. w . ...." : ."..._ : ... -..-12 , Majority against the clause ... 4 - ' V. The clause was therefore negatived. " x The" -Ched-les were then agreed to, and the Bill as amended passed through cbmv mittee, reported to the House, read a third ■ v "'time,~ahd'p_Jrsed. - ; r BESEBVE 424 ORDINANCE. 4 ■ ■.., On the motion of Mr Kennaway the Bill ' wad passed through all its stages. ' ' - THE PKOROGATION. '.'".' Mr Kennaway said that he would now move the adjournment of the House until Friday at. the usual hour, because the Superintendent, who was in attendance on _ his. Excellency the Governor, was unable to assent to the Bills passed '-in the present session. On the House meeting that it adjourn to Thursday next, and during the interval his Honor co utd ; issue a pfoclamation assenting to the Bills, and proroguing the Council. * '-■■' The' Council then adjourned at 12.5 pj__ to noon.this -day;