THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL.

Press, Volume XII, Issue 1485, 13 August 1867, Page 3

THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL.

The ,v .Nghl Zealand instsnt,; says •—The debate, or iha T JLocal Bui, which was flagging when we Uat went to preaß, has revived - and assumed- a-very- interesting character. The spee^es-of Mr Vogel, Mr Bell,-Mr Stevens, .Siphmondj enttaed; more or less .into,, questions of arvery serious character, and introduced the-Bg} as part of a policy on which' be driiren aB the ,aole<alt«>, nafaveto separation.. ' Mr, Stevens is entitled to to-the coantryi as a matterf for prtwtfcal! consideration*..the, proposal tor reduce' th* oppressive indirept under which it groans in these days of difficulty. As we gathered his view, it is thatihaindirect taxation should he limited in !*§$ cat * ott exclusively to Government and to the maintenance of the public credit. ..He desired to impose.on the provuh&i the duty of raising funds, if any ms -needed, beyond the land revenue, wr : .public,/ improvements; and immigration.. --Mr Richmond accepted the altersb put by Mr Stevens, as a correct Katement of tbe case. The colony would not &*» the present taxation, and as a mere question of raising revenue the tariff was strained, he said, beyond proper limits, and must befora long be trenchantly handled. He °*Bed his approval of tbe Bill on this view. «a : deprecated separation, but thought unless the Legislature was prepared to assert it itself and to do its duty, that miserable alternative ■foold be forced upon the country in order to simplify the machinery of Government and economise the expenditure. He preferred, more strictly, local taxation to direct taxation fi y the Provincial Councils as safer to property and more thoroughly equitable, and the Bill netuoughtwas worthy of support on that •c°W. How far these gentlemen have struck a JK-■-*#-. »»Uy vibrates, or is about to vwrate, we do not venture to say, but there

; Hs evidently a great and possible policy con- ! Itained in their speeches, and the country will i ipriek $p .its ears." 1 AJMOUEITED DEBATE. We publish the adjourned debate on this 1 Bill as reported in the Wellington papers. ! Tuesday, August 6. J. Mr Yogel, in resuming the debate on the ' Local Government Bill, said ho scarcely j thought any apology was required for referring at length to the Bill, because it seemed to be generally admitted that it was a Bill of a revolutionary character—that it was a Bill ' involving organic ohanges in the Constitution, 1 and therefore required great consideration. It ' whs fortunate thit the Bill came before the ' House in mu-h v t-hip.> that they could fully ci-itii'iso ini-l '"iscu-s its provisions ; because th* 0,,-.-.: ~-.t- hart :hr.-,.vn tha fjii; b--f,.re ;ln> 1 i... :•> do w-'i it they iii-'-u with, an i therefore :■•>■!. im ■"'..■;■! .- ,i I a.-t. :»* th<u pleased, without IVaiini; iho cor.s qucniv* which would result, v.er<; it a ministerial measure. Although it had been alluded to last session, and had been made much of before its introduction, yet the Government now seemed to care very little about it. It would have been much better had the Government undertaken to be responsible for the Bill and to defend it. But the Colonial Treasurer and tho Postmaster-General had very little to say for it; they were not prepared to recommend the House to adopt its provisions, and only asked that its title should be adopted, and upon the meaning of that title these hon. members differed. He thought the course which the members of the Government had followed, of misapplying and_ misinterpreting „thfi remarks, made by hon. members, was very unfair; and although in tbe remarks be intended to make, he should endeavour to : Bhow that to certain provisions two or three objections would apply, he hoped the Government would not attempt to say, as they were accustomed to do, that one objection destroyed the others. He should show that the Bill was both unworkable and inconsistent. It was a remarkable thing for the hon. member who moved the second reading of the Bill not to have attempted to show that the Bill was one which the House was justified in accepting, and that it should be left for a private member to endeavour to do so. The hon. Colonial Treasurer made one or two remarks to which it was necessary to reply. He had said that time would be the judge of the Government's intentions, and had admitted that the Bill would render the Government of the country more complicated. The only meaning that could be applied to the first statement was, that they were to leave the Government in office and allow them to carry out the measure: but this was not a proper thing to ask. Judgment of the acts of the Government should not be left till a future time ; they should be judged every session. The Government were shirking their duty by not standing or falling by the Bill. The Government had no right to say to the House we mean well, and therefore you must show us great consideration. The-Treasurer, by his speech, had virtually shown that the districts would be removed from the control of the provinces. ' He should be able to shofr that the objections ! whioh had been raised were something more than committee objections. He could not understand how the Treasurer could say,' that, in taking a large portion of the revenue of the provinces, they were not denuding them of their powers. If he'could see any principle in the Bill which he could support, he would, as was asked, vote for the second reading, but he could not do so. He looked upon it that the districts, from their birth, would be in antagonism with the Provincial Governments ; this seemed to be the principle of the Bill, and that principle he would be affirming were he- to vote for the second reading. If there'had been unseemly scrambles in the Provincial Councils, the. effect of the Bill wouldbe to refer those unseemly scrambles to the Assembly. If they constituted these districts Boards, those Boards would be constantly Bending up petitions for assistance. The Colonial Treasurer had said that the Provincial Coun- ] cils should devote themselves to higher objects than the Boards would have charge of; and an insidious warning was given to the " territorial lords " that they would be liable to be taxed by legislatures if 'the Bill were not passed. But if the Bill were passed the provincial legislatures would have just as much power to tax them as now ; and moreover, not only would they be liable to be taxed by the District Boards, but might also be taxed to meet the Government equivalent. They \ve-(! asked to establish an elaborate j system of Government before they had the mT-ans to do so. .Not only would property be heavily taxed by the system, but they would not be able to reduce the present indirect taxation. They had been promised that the measure would be a masterpiece of legislation, and if the Bill did not pass its second reading, he could not but express his opinion that the Government would have met with an ignominious failure. It wag perfectly distressing "to him to hear members of the Government express friendly intentions towards the provinces, because he knew their designs wore of quite a different nature. If the House would reflect on the manner in which they had been beguiled session after session with the promise that something would be done for the provinces, and then look at the Bill, they could not but regard the Colonial Treasurer, in spite of bis friendly professibns, as their dangerous, because insiduous, enemy. Year after year he had narrowed the provinces round with- financial difficulties. [Mr Vogel then read, from Dv Cbaillu'B -Travels in Africa a description of the habits of a large species of spider, a"nd a cockroach upon which it feeds, comparing the Colonial Treasurer to the former, and the provinces to the latter.] Dv Chaillu, in this description, only dealt with one view of the case, and showed how the spider killed the cockroach, but on some occasions, as for instance when the spider was very aged [laughter],the cockroach might kill the spider. The PostmasterGeneral had said provincial institutions exercised an evil influence on the House ; but whatever influence might hare been exercised by tbe Provincial Councils in that Houso.would not the numerous District Boards, all looking . to the House directly for support, exercise a vastly greater influence. A good idea could be obtained of the actual wants of the provinces, but it would be impossible to ascertain the ' exact wants of a number of little districts, and the consequence would be that there would be a great deal of "log-rolling" in the House. . -The Boards which might be founded would have a right to look to that Assembly, which had formed them, for support; and as many of the Boards would have but little revenue, Were would be a constant scramble in the Assembly for assistance. All those evils which were now said to exist in the Provincial Councils would be transferred to the General Assembly. In tbe Provincial Councils there was much local knowledge which would not be present in the Assembly.- The Hon. Postmaster-General had to evidence the care and attention the Government had given to the measure : it was alluded to last session, and had been sent down by message; bat these were the sort of excuses schoolboys might make when bringing up some ill-performed exercise, and who would think themselves very fortunate if they were only punished by having their exercises torn up ; and the Government might think themselves very mercifully dealt with if, for having introduced a Bill which was unworkable and pleased no party, they had the Bill torn up. The Government had never attempted to answer the cogent arguments of the hon. member of Porirua, who had shown that the Bill would destroy provincial institutions, and substitute no efficient institution in their stead. When they came to look at the outlyingdistricts question in its true light, they would see that whatever injustice those districts were suffering under that House could not remedy it, as any assistance to them must be given through the Provincial Governments. Much capital had been made out of the Bill he introduced last session j but how could members of the Government, especially the Postmaster-General, charge members with inconsistency after their own conduct. This Bill was entirely different from the Bill of last year „-. j )-. should show that it was entirely in contact with provincial institutions, and did not provide a worthy substitute. Moreover,

• -they must not .'•ofiiy"'t4&e ; 'the "measure as it 1 stood,. but. say-thai- the -substitute proposed was so entirely on worthy that the Bill could not be altered in committee so as to provide a 3 proper substitute. The Act of last session was intended originally for Otago, and was drawn up by a committee com- , posed of Otago members. In conse- " quence of applications made by Can- [ terbury members, the committee endeavj oured to alter the Bill so as to make it <• capable of being applied to any part of I the colony. It was, however, found that the measure could cot be carried into effect I without the consent of tha provinces, and it . wa-» therefore m-ide entirely permissive. The Bill gave every power into the bands of the j . Superintendents, and the Boards would have , derir-'d their whole subsistence from the p-ovince* By tl-.e present Bill tlie Govern- | 'j'-nf l-iid *he r n.)elve3 open to be done out of an- amount of money, and had no means of adeq'/i?e!y witching over its expenditure. , The Bill said rhat the main roads should be : made by tlie Boards, but provided no means , of making them, and the equivalent would be fritted away in making bye-roads and salaries. But in many cases the District Boards would not find the endowment sufficient, and an appeal to the Assembly would be inevitable. Then the Governor was to have absolute power to make any regulations he liked in reference to the Act, without referring them to the Assembly, so that the Governor had an absolute power of legislation. Giving the Governor power to do anything which a Superintendent might fail to do could only mean that if the Superintendent wished to exercise his discretion he would not be allowed to do so, and the few powers that were preferedly given to the Superintendent were virtually reduced to a shadow. The land sales endowment clause would have the effect of injuring the provincial credit, as no doubt when the Boards got short of money a pressure would be brought to bear upon the Provincial Governments in order to compel them to sell tbe lands. Such a course would be inexpedient, and would tend to prevent the settling of the country. The effect of the clause, under which the Government would have to pay a double equivalent to provide donations and subscriptions, would bo to cause a great deal of imposition to be practised upon the Government, who would have no power to check it. He could not consent to accept the character of an ultra-provincialist; he merely wished the provinces to be allowed to fulfil the purposes for which they were created.. He would be quite content if the 1 administration were left to the provinces, and j legislation to the General Assembly ; but ' j whenever the General Assembly began to i legislate for the provinces, instead of giving i the administrative power to the Superinten- i dents they gave it to the General Govern- l ment. Provincial institutions should have < been worked in a very different manner to ] what they had been. A Secretary for the pro- ] vinces should have been appointed, in order ] to furnish the General Assembly with full I information on provincial affairs. 'But this ] measure struck at the root of provincialism, 1 as it deprived the provinces of their revenues i and dissolved that partnership which existed . between the different districts of the 1 provinces. If each province were charged < with the sum to be paid to the ( Boards, it would amount to a forced 1 appropriation out of the provincial revenues i made by the General Assembly; but if it were '< taken out of the ordinary revenue of the i colony without respect to each province, the i richer provinces would have to support the < poorer, and there would be virtually but one 1 province in the colony. It might be necessary i to raise special tales to pay the equivalent, ; i and in that case some districts would have to t pay extra taxes to provide for the equivalent : of other districts! Moreover, the Bill was an i infringement upon the land fund, as a Super- I intendent could order a Board to make a ' main road, and if the Board did not make it ] within a year the Superintendent could im- ' pound its land fund for years in order to < meet the expense of constructing the road. < In that case the Board would have to appeal i to the Assembly for assistance. It must be ] remembered that in many districts all the < land had been sold, and if they were ordered 1 to make main roads they would have a right - to come to the Assembly, and the ultimate ] result would be that the land fund of all the ( I provinces would have to be made into a I common fund, and the equivalent to all the i districts paid out of it. The Bill was a i distinct attack upon the land fund of the prov- ' inces. They were now to consider whether the i Bill would provide a fair substitute for pro- i vincial institutions, or whether it could be 1 so altered in committee as to provide a fair i substitute.. His answer must be in the nega- i tive. Its radiual fault was want of supervi- ' sion, and the Government would have no j machinery to carry the provisions of the Bill 1 into effect. The equivalent would be given ] without being subject to any supervision, and i the money would be spent on side roads and ' salaries. Bills to effect similar objects which 1 this was intended to .attain in other colonies i provided thiß supervision. The Assembly i would not be able to meet the demands of the ' Boards without superseding provincial institutions, and even then they could not do it without imposing additional taxation. Only some of the provinces could now afford to give double equivalents; and yet the Bill proposed to give double equivalents to districts in all the provinces. If the Act came into force some 700 Boards might be established. This would cause a great extra expense in the cost of the General Government. He would probably be told that some of his objections conflicted with each other. "No doubt they did, but this very fact showed how purely theoretical the Bill was. These radical defects proved to him that it would be impossible to alter the Bill in committee to make it suitable to the wants of tho country. But if the Bill were thrown out, he would like to see a Bill introduced that would validate the Ordinances under which the existing Boards were formed, and give the provinces further power to establish municipal corporations. [Cheers.] Mr H. S. Haehison said that he must express his surprise at the leading features of the Bill. It would be much better if the House thought that provincial institutions had fulfilled their mission to do away with them at once, and not to fritter away their powers. Had a Bill been introduced to define the powers of the provinces he might have ' supported it. If this were a Ministerial question he should have shrunk from voting against the second reading ; but as it was, he should vote against it. Mr H£aphy said it required much moral , courage on the part of a member not repre- > senting a city district to express his intention of voting against the measure. But although . the Bill appeared on the face of it to be '. beneficial to the out districts, it was in reality i unfitted to accomplish the purposes for which it was designed, and financially unsound. It proceeded on the assumption that the interests of the provinces were all alike ; but this was fallacious. He did not consider that any Bill founded upon unsound financial principles could be altered in committee so as to make it workable. In Auckland the province had already been cut up into counties, and endless confusion would be produced were new counties to be established. He did not like the plan of converting the laws of another country into laws for thia. If this measure were carried out, it would have the effect of inducing people in the country districts to spend too much time .in attending to petty politics. He should vote against the Bill. Mr Stevens said he had made up Jiis mind to vote for the second reading, upon the distinct understanding that the bill would be criticised in committee, and altered as members might think fit He thought the usefulness of the Bill was in inverse proportion to its bulk, but should support it because it secured, in some measure, to the District Road Boards a definite proportion of the land revenue; but the distribution of the land fund should have been made retrospective, as nothing short of that would satisfy the outdistricts. The clause providing for the endowment out of the ordinary revenue excited his utmost alarm. The Customs duties upon the necessaries of life ought to be reduced as far as possible; but if the provisions of the Bill were to bo carried out the provinces would be compelled, to meat their wants, to resort

Mr H. S. Haehison said that he must express his surprise at the leading features of the Bill. It would be much better if the House thought that provincial institutions had fulfilled their mission to do away with them at once, and not to fritter away their powers. Had a Bill been introduced to define the powers of the provinces he might have supported it. If this were a Ministerial question he should have shrunk from voting against the second reading ; but as it was, he should vote against it.

Mr Bleaphy said it required much moral courage on the part of a member not representing a city district to express his intention of voting against the measure. But although the Bill appeared on the face of it to be beneficial to the out districts, it was in reality unfitted to accomplish the purposes for which it was designed, and financially unsound. It proceeded on the assumption that the interests of the provinces were all alike ; but this was fallacious. He did not consider that any Bill founded upon unsound financial principles could be altered in committee so as to make it workable. In Auckland the province had already been cut up into counties, and endless confusion would be produced were new counties to be established. He did not like the plan of converting the laws of another country into laws for thia. If this measure were carried out, it would have the effect of inducing people in the country districts to spend too much time . in attending to petty politics. He should vote against the Bill. Mr Stevens said he had made up Jiis mind to vote for the second reading, upon the distinct understanding that the bill would be criticised in committee, and altered as members might think fit He thought the usefulness of the Bill was in inverse proportion to its bulk, but should support it because it secured, in some measure, to the District fioad Boards a definite proportion of the land revenue; but the distribution of the land fund should have been made retrospective, as nothing short of that would satisfy the outdistricts. The clause providing for the endowment out of the ordinary revenue excited his utmost alarm. The Customs duties upon the necessaries of life ought to be reduced as far as possible; but if the provisions of the Bill were to be carried out the provinces would be compelled, to meat their wants, to resort

; fto local taxation,-and the Assembly would Tiave ta increase taxation in order to give the 'provinces a .larger'share of tho ordinary revenue. If a Bill of this kind were to be introduced, why did they not adopt the system of parishes as it existed in England ? If districts of fifteen square miles in extent were established, a lan»e part of the time of the inhabitants would be occupied in the discussion of local politics. The counties would also be much too numerous. The House ought, before accep'rng such a liability as it was asked to do. fo be : placed in possession of data as to the rate*. j and should have the flnanml statement I before them, as the whole question was a provincial one. Nor did he wish a change in the Constitution to take place until the people expressed a wish to that effect. Provincial institutions should be absorbed as the people desired it. A crisis had come, when it had to be decided whether those Governments which spent the money should bear the odium of raising it, and the question should be settled now. The Surplus Revenue Act ought to be repealed, and just financial arrangements made with the provinces. Mr D. Bell would endeavour to. show that there was a fundamental "bnstitutional principle which was antagonistic to the principle of the Bill. This latter principle might be said to be that the ordinary revenue of the colony might be made available to supplement rates raised by Road Boards. The colony was labouring under a heavy burden of taxation, which ought not to be increased unless for those purposes which were necessary to the existence of the Government. They had no right, under the guise of assistance to local and municipal government, to maintain the taxation of the colony at its present rate. The question assumed an entirely different phase to what it would have taken had it only dealt with the colonial revenue. It was a legitimate thing to apply the land fund to opening up the country and aiding in its colonization, but it was not proper to apply the Customs' revenue to such purposes. He denied that fn the Victorian Act any example was shown of the ordinary revenue being applied to the payment of equivalents to District Boards. It was easy to understand how assistance could bo given to local Boards out of the consolidated revenue of a country without taking any portion of it out of the ordinary revenue. When the Hon. Treasurer spoke of going tb'flie country with the Bill, he maintained that if the Government did so with the Bill in one hand and increased taxation in the other that the country would go with those members who opposed the Bill. The Stamp duties were not imposed to allow of equivalents being paid to Road Boards, but to meet the exigencies of the General Government. It was for this reason that he would never, so long as he held a seat in that House, consent that the people should be taxed to provide for anything but the necessary expenses of the Government. ' Even if the provinces agreed to a settlement • of accounts, the provinces would never agree that tbe surplus revenue, after tin* necessary expenses of the General Government had- been provided for, should go anywhere but to the provinces. And while he was not ah he would never agree- that those -provincial institutions which were established by the Constitution Act should be abolished until the provinces themselves consented ' fo their abolition, as the altered -circumstances of the country would no doubt >leaeHhem r to do at i some future time. Most of the hon. gentlemen now on the Ministerial benches held very different views as to tha proper powers of the provinces when the Constitution Act was first brought into operation to what they did now. There was no doubt that, if they wanted to carry a measure involving organic changes, i and to make it useful, it mußt be in accordance with the will of the public ; and before they proposed organic changes those changeß, should have been previously discussed by the people. No one would maintain that there was not a transfer of authority ; because any one who had been engaged in the government i of the country would see that the establish- < ment of hundreds of Road Districts having powers now exercised by the Provincial Coun- ; eils would result in the transfer of authority from the Provincial Councils to the Road Districts. The General Governments were proposing to do to the provinces what the Governor of the colony said he would do to : the Maori King—not attack him, but dig ; round his roots till he fell. He believed that tho judgment of the majority of the people would be that provincial institutions should continue to exist until their mission was fulfilled, in preference to having Road Districts and municipal institutions throughout the country. The functions of the Road Districts would be functions of that municipal charaoter which properly belonged to the Provincial Governments. The House should not disturb that peace which had so long existed ; surely it might be left undisturbed for another session. The financial difficulties of the colony would be greatly increased by this measure ; as it was they could not get out of their financial difficulties unless they went into the market and obtained a loan; and yet it was proposed to place the revenue under an indefinite liability. If they did not take upon themselves this liability, they were offering an enoouragement to the districts to fight amongst themselves for their share of tho public revenue. It was absolutely necessary to consider the question which the Government had refused to answer —how far would the richer provinces be liable to pay the equivalent for the poorer? So far as his own province was concerned the Bill would be utter ruin. Let it not be said that this was a permissive Bill, If they once proposed that a general measure applicable to the whole colony might bo taken up at the option of certain parts of the colony, they were manufacturing a gross injustice. Those out-districts which had really suffered an injustice from the Provincial Councils would be shut out by this Bill from obtaining redress; and the injustice would be stereotyped for ever. They proposed a Bill as one of a general principle from which four provinces out of the colony could obtain no benefit, and a fifth cou.d obtain no benefit unless by deriving it from property which had already been given over to the whole colony. The maximum rate was fixed at Is in the £, but as no provision was made for valuation, the rate might be raised to 10s in the £, and a heavy and unjust tax inflicted upon property. The hon. member then pointed out a number of defects in the Bill. The second reading of the Bill pledged the House to the financial principle of the Bill [loud cries of «' hear, hear," and " no, no"], and those who disapproved of the imposing of an indefinite liability upon the colonial revenue must not allow themselves to be blinded to this fact. After making some further remarks the hon. gentleman sat down amidst loud cheers. The Hon. J. C. Richmohd moved the adjournment of the debate, which was agreed to. The House then adjourned at half-past twelve p.m. Wednesday, August 7. The Hon. J. C. Rioh3£Ohd, who had moved the adjournment of the debate, said he felt great anxiety in addressing the House on this occasion, not because of the subject in debate, but because of certain ideas floating about this House in vague forms. The hon. member for the Goldfields had addressed a genial speech to the House last night, in which he stated that the Government ought to have taken up the Bill, and, if possible, carried it through ; but he thought that the course adopted by Ministers was the correot one. The hon. member for Porirua had also made use of his committee speeches, in which he lost sight of the particular question, and satisfied himself by firing his shafts at the Government. The problem which Ministers had attempted to solve in bringing this Bill before the country was one which, like an epidemic, had swept over the civilised world —namely, the re-dis-tribution of Government. The object of Ministers waa to advance this problem, and not to centralise, and be thought that if hon. members looked at the Bill without prejudice they would see that such waa the case. True, the Bill intended to centralise the powers, but at the same time to generalise the administration of the affairs of the country. The ques- , tion now before the country waa, whether we •hould agree to a redaction of taxation,'

'or whether we should "pursue the » present course and increase it. He looked with some degree of apprehension on the idea even of insular separation, | because he did not see that good would come of it. The country does not want sopam- ! tion, but it wants a re-distribution of 1 the governing powers of the country, such a distribution as would enable the Government to manage better the distribution of the revenue. The spending body must be brought face to face with the governing body. However well Superintendents may manage their aff-.irs they cannot say how soon a change maybe necessary in their administration. It is clear to all that a change is absolutely necessary in the administration of the finances of the country, and the Bill now before the House was introduced with that object. If it is the intention of this House that there should be a colony of New Zealand, it should take up its proper functions, aud consider this measure, which had for its object the better management of tlie local affairs of the colony. In considering the question it would be necessary to look forward, and in doing bo it perhaps "would be seen that the day was coming ! whon the various districts of the North Tsland would contribute more largely to the revenue of the country than the Southern Island, and therefore the latter island might find that it would serve its interests to continue its connection with the former. That local government was daily becoming more necessary was beyond argument. The population had so increased and spread over the country that local government was absolutely necessary. Provincial Councils in former days had done good service, but the time had arrived when another state of things should be initiated. It had been found elsewhere, but particularly in America, that local government, such as that proposed, tended to advance the best interests of the country more rapidly. There are many districts in the colony now—as, for instance, Wanganui, Bay of Islands, and others, which ought to have local government, but are kept back without it. It was said that the Government forced this Bill upon the country, i but hon. members, he thought, did not think so. It was not the object of Ministers to force any revolutionary measure on the country, but it was their object to introduce such a measure, and leave it to the people to pronounce whether it met their wants or not. Ministers never entertained the idea of forcing a Bill which would meet with the approval of all interested. They well knew that it would be necessary to subject any measure, however carefully prepared, to considerable amendment. He would, therefore, simply ask hon. members to accept the principle of the Bill, and allow it to pass into committee. Mr Main said the Commissioner of Customs had thrown aside the veil which hitherto covered the policy of Ministers by stating that the country would never be well or properly governed until it was governed from one common centre. The Bill before tbe House had this object in view. It was based on an Act in operation in a neighbouring colony possessed of a system of government in no ways analogous to the government of New Zealand. The Bill, therefore, was not applicable to the circumstances of this community. It would necessitate an organic change in our Constitution. When Shire Councils were created and endowed with powers to levy rates and manage their own affairs independent of Provincial Councils, they would look to the central Government for guidance and support, and not to Provincial Governments. By this means the utility of provincialism would be destroyed in the course of a very short time. But what security would be given for the proper outlay of public money by such councils as those proposed ? Absolutely none. Under the present system Provincial Governments are responsible for tha uses to which they apply the publio revenue. Is it not better, then, to'let well enough alone It may fairly be assumed that there must be some latent motive urging the Ministers to push this Bill through, or they would have adopted the suggestion of an hon. member and delayed the further consideration of the Bill until it had been discussed carefully and coolly by both the press and the people. The country is not ripe for'the measure. If Ministers think that it is, why not then go to the country with it. But the Ministry decline to do so, aud pray hon members to enter into compact with them and allow it to pass into committee. They simply ask that the principle be asserted, and then tliey will allow it to be amended as hon. members please. The Commissioner of Customs informed the House that during his tour through Otago in 1866 he passed through many districts which wanted local government, but he had pleasure in stating that rural districts in Otago not onlypossessedlocal government but were liberally subsidised by the Provincial Government. If other provinces were as well managed as Otago such a measure as that before the House would not be required. He hoped the House would come to a division on the subject this evening, and also that the Bill would be sent to the country for consideration, and if approved of, then it might be brought up during the next session and passed.

Mr Rbid said that the subject had been so closely considered in debate that there was little to say on it. He thought that the Bill was a cumbersome piece of machinery, and did not meet the requirements of the country. Notwithstanding, he did not think that it waa fair to raise the cry to let it go before the country, since Ministers had consented to allow it to be amended in committee. He would not support the Bill.

Mr Macandeew said after the exhaustive speeches which had been addressed to the House on the Bubject, he did not hope to be able to throw any additional light on it. But the matter was of such importance that he could not give a silent; vote on it. The main object of the measure was to revolutionize the government of the country, and it would be found that if it were carried out its operation would be injurious to many districts, such as Oamaru, whilst perhaps it would benefit a few. He thought that no action taken under this Bill would be beneficial, unless that action was made retrospective. In Otago the Government were doing their utmost to provide for outlying districts. Any Board created under the Act received £2 from the Treasury for every £1 riised by such Board, and every now Board received £500 as a start, and the system was found to work satisfactorily. Why interfere with tho provinces by such a measure as that before the House. He knew that in days gone past there was a good deal of clamour about the neglect of outlying districts, and not without just cause; but at the present moment there was no cause of complaint existing, and therefore the central Government ought to let well enough alone. He hoped that the Cabinet would see the advisability of withdrawing this measure, for it was a most wanton attack on the existing state of things. It was preposterous on the part of the Government to endeavour to pass such a measure without first obtaining the voice of the people. One would have thought that the table of the House would be groaning under the burden ,of petitions from the country before such a measure was Introduced. But such was not the case; only three petitions were received, and they were not an expression of the feeling of the community. Rather than the measure should be passed, it would be better to go to the country over it, and he, for one, was prepared to do so. He would vote against tbe BilL

Mr Lttdlah could not agree with the statement to the effect that the object of this Bill was to destroy the provinces. H such districts as Marlborough, Naj>ier, and Southland had been fairly treated years ago they would never have been constituted provinces. Mr Rbeves said that if he had any donbt as. to which way he would vote, the speech of the Commissioner of Customs had set that doubt at rest. He was persuaded that the measure was thoroughly revolutionary in principle, and therefore he could not support it.

Mr Boklass thought that the whole of the debate was a mockery and a sham, and he had no interest in it. Ministers had not introduced one single argument in favour of the Bill.

The Hon. the Pbkmtkb said he was anxious to. address the Haute at an earlier hour, but

lie was unable to do so. He wished to correct an error into which the hon. member for the Avon had fallen, namely, that it was the intention of the Government to cast the land revenue in with the Customs revenue for the purpose of carrying out the objects of the Local Government Bill. It was evident that the hon. member had not read the Bill carefully, or he would not have fallen into such an error. It had been stated that the Ministry had shown a degree of reticence on tho subject in debate, but when he reminded the House that already t«vo members of tho Cabinet had spoken on the subject the charge would fall to tho ground. Tho Government, had been led to believe that the member for the Goldfields, as leader of the Opposition, had been deposed, and that the mantle of office had fallen on the shoulders of the member for Porirua. He could not, therefore, bo expected to address the House in reply to that gentleman's speech, for in his opinion that gentleman was not fit to hold tho position of leader of the Opposition. The hon. "member for Wellington city and hon. member for the Goldfields were the only two gentlemen in his opinion qualified to take np the position of leader of the Opposition. With referenco to the speech of the the hon. member for the Goldfields, he listened to it with pleasure, and thought it the moat pointed speech delivered during the debate. The hon. member had endeavoured to Bhow that much evil would result from the circulation of the Bill, and that the interests of the provinces would be materially affected thereby, but he had to ask what was meant by the word province, for he had never had a definite explanation of the term. The Government had to do with the colony as a whole, and not with the provinces, either singly or collectively. It had been argued that the operation of the Bill would result in increased taxation, and he believed that whether the Bill was passed or no the country would have to resort to increased taxation, and that at a date not distant. He anticipated this, and it would affect him as much perhaps as many other hon. membeis, for he had some property in the country. Then as to the opposition of the hon. member for the Goldfields to the Bill he could not account for it, becauso almost every clause of the Bill introduced by tho hon. member last session was incorporated in the measure before the House. A system of local government similar to that proposed is in operation in Canada, the United States of A inerica, and the colony of Victoria, and in all those countries it has been found to work exceedingly well. True, it is not long since Victoria adopted this measure, and therefore it might be argued that sufficient time had not elapsed to enable one to form an accurate opinion as to the benefits derivable from the working of the Act. But there was one point, however, which he would impress on hon. members, namely, that the Legislature of Victoria did not confer local government on the poople until they demanded it. The people of this colony have asked for it also, and why not let them have it ? The Premier then at oon-s siderable length reviewed the speech of the hon. member for Mataura (Mr D. Bell), arguing that at a time not distant the hon. member held views similar to those enunciated in the Bill, and in support of his argument read extracts from a speech delivered in 1860 by the member for Mataura. He (Mr Stafford) oould not account for tho sweeping change which had come over the opinions of the hon. member, and therefore he did not expect that much weight would be attached to his teaching in consequence. Then, as to the question of insular separation, he had no sympathy with it whatever. It was a selfish question, and thoße who entertained it had not the interests of the colony at heart. Moreover, on finanoial grounds, the question could not be entertained, as for instance the province of Auckland for a long time contributed more largely to the revenue of the oouhtry than any other province ; it would therefore be very hard to leave that province to itself now because it had fallen a little in arrears. The Bill before the Houbo met and provided for such cases aa this.

Mr ModßkouSß was under the impression that the Bill was but a part of a great scheme the object of which was to undermine and destroy provincialism.

Mr Campbell could not support the second reading of the Bill.

Mr Abmsthong said he would vote for its second reading, feeling that it would undergo such changes in committee as to meet with the approval of tlie country. On the votes being taken the bill was declared to be lost by a majority of 9. The division list appeared in our yesterday's issue.