HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Bruce Herald, Volume VIII, Issue 793, 18 August 1876, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Tuesday, 15th August.

Mr Bees gave notice to move, before going into Committee of Supp'y, that no appointment of Awent-General be made, with a view of giving the House an opportunity of considering the matter.

Sir G. Grey gave notice that he would move, when the County Councils Bill came on for its second reading, that it be read a second time that day six months ; also, that he would in the same way move that the Financial Arrangements Bill be read a second time that day six months.

Mr Stout asked— (l) Whether the Government consider that the Suryeyor-Gen-eral of the Colony should hold the appointment of Qhief Commissioner of Waste Lands for Otago ? (2/ If not, if they will call upon him to resign his appointment as Chief Commissioner of Waste Lands ?

The Hon. Mr Atkinson did not consider it desirable that the Surveyor-General should hold the appointment referred to, and the Government were prepared to accept his resignation. They looked upon the appointment as one of considerable importance. Mr Seaton asked the Minister for Public Works whether the Government had an estimate prepared of the probable cost of harbor works at Timaru ?

The Hon. Mr Richardson said that sufficient details had not been laid before the Government to enable a reliable estimate of the probable cost of work to be arrived at. Mr Murray asked what was the amount of the contract for the Brunner suspension bridge, recently fallen, how much had been paid to the contractors, and when would the Government lay before the House a report showing the cause of the bridge breaking down .under its own weight 1 The Hon. Mr Richardson replied that the amount of the contract was £6630. Of this £4985 had been paid to the contractors, and the cost of repairing the damage would be £1500. The enquiry was suspended, pending the arrival of the District Engineer. The Riverton Harbor Board Endowment Bill and the Otago Reserves Management Bill were introduced and read a first time.

The adjourned debate on Separation was resumed

Mr Nahe was surprised that so many South Island members should oppose the resolutions that were in the direction the South Island wanted so often. He believed these disputes between Europeans as to the form of government did a great deal of harm to the Maoris. If the Government were afraid of the harm to be worked by nine provinces, how much more should they have cause to dread the evil of thirty- nine ? Now that only two were proposed, he wanted to know why these resolutions were opposed. He attributed to Sir D. M'Lean the credit that there was no fighting now in Waikato, and he intended at a future date to ask for an inquiry into the causes of the war in the Waikato, so as to ascertain whether the lands of the Maoris were entitled to be confiscated. He thought the separation of the two Islands would have a good effect upon both by stimulating a spirit of rivalry. The member for the N orthern district praised the Government tor their good administration, but he gathered from that that the administration was different in different districts, because he bad petitions for the redress of grievances. He thought one reason why the Islands should be separated was to prevent the South Island members voting on Native affairs.

Mr Harper regretted that there had been such a waste of time during the Session. He did not look on the question as a party one, and was prepared to discuss it upon its merits. It appeared to him that this was the most inopportune time to bring down such resolutions, because the inevitable confusion that must result from these resolutions being carried must have a most injurious effect upon the credit of the Colony. He looked upon a great many of the arguments introduced into this debate merely as a defence of Provincialism and as being quite out of place. They would have done very well last Session, but now Vrovincialism was a thing of the past. Members objected to Centralism, but tne remedy they proposed was worse than the disease. They proposed two Centralisms instead of one. The analogies and comparisons introduced dudng the debate as supporting the resolutions, he thought had no analogy to the case of New Zealand, which was a peculiar one and required to be legislated for accordingly. If the North Island was unable to bear its burdens at present, as it appeared to be, what good was it going to do by itself ? How was ifc going to bear its burden without the assistance of the rest of the Colony ? 3e could not but think that the Separation proposed must inevitably lead to two separate Colonies, which would carry on their own affairs entirely independently of each other, and so reduce the influence and character of the Colony. Mr Sharp said that with reference to the financial aspect of the question, he failed utterly to see what bearing finance had upon the question under discussion at all. The honorable gentleman commented upon tha action of Sir George Grey when constitutional powers were granted to the Colony. Great mischief had resulted to the Colony from the fact of Sir George Grey going away before he saw the new Constitution in proper working order. He ought to have called the General Assembly into Session first, and so nrevented the Provincial Councils obtaining" the dominant power they assumed, which they never were intended to have, and which ought to have centred in the General Assembly. Touching th« Compact of 3856, he held that the Immigration and Public Works Act put an end to the Compact. The land fund should then have been made responsible for the construction of railways. It was customary to jeer at the poor provinces, and particularly at Nelson, which was stigmatised as a sleepy hollow, and behind the age What was the reason ? Why, it appeared that to those who had much, much should be given. The province of Nelson had contributed £551,000 to the consolidated ■revenue since the public works commenced, and they only received back £86,953. This was the way they were continually being flaerificed .to the larger provinces, and as long as these powerful provinces existed, he felt they never would get a particle of justice. Though opposed to the resolutions, he was not in love with the Government measures. He did not approve of these arbitrary counties. The Government ought to simply place the people in the position, or not, as they desired, and ifc would be found that the people w^uld form themselves into counties naturally as would best suit the requirements of the country. The machinery should be elastic. He did not think it possible to have Financial Separation without Separation pure and simple. Qne point that

had never been explained to them was m what way was the North Island going to struggle against any difficulties that might beset her without the assistance of the South. They had been told that the House was not a representative body. He believed that those from the extreme North and South did not fairly represent the people. They only represented Provincialism. He grieved for the fate of Nelson as a portion of one province, especially when such sentiments as those of Mr Macandrew were given utterance to— Mr Macandrew, who considered the interests of Otago superior to those of the Colony. It was the duty of the House to legislate now so as to build up a united Colony worthy of the nation from which they sprung, and if the present Government would not do ifc, then let them have another one that would. Mr WilHams opposed the resolutions as an out district member. He had more faith in the Ceneral Government than in Provincialism. Insinuations had been thrown out that the Colony was on the eve of a Maori war, but he had no such dread. One reason why there should be no Separation was the liability of a war. It appeared to him that if any changes were to be made in the composition of the Government, he for one would prefer to see the Native Minister come from the South Island, as he would be more likely to be free from local prejudice. Touching the action of Sir G. Grey in regard to Native matters, if he tvere made Native Minister to-morrow no man would more bitterly resent having his actions interfered with in any way in Native matters. He opposed the resolutions. Mr Rowe could not understand the conduct of the Opposition in not speaking. They surely must have exhausted all their arguments, or must have some irresistible ones in reserve. He could not but bok upon the resolutions as calculated to injure the credit of the Colony, and materially retard its growth and development. The honorable member for the Thames pointed to the Greek States iv support of his resolutions, but from his recollection he believed the curse of Greece was that she had not a strong central government— even federal if they liked. Had she that, the glory of Athens need never have passed away. They heard a good deal about the arrangement come to between Auckland and Otago, but he never heard a word to show how this agreement was going to be guaranteed as a permanent arrangement. There had been a wild talk about seizing the Customs, aod such an event was not so unlikely. Well, would it not be advisable that the Central Government should have the power to suppress any such step as that ? But could such an attempt be suppressed under such a sham and a delusion as that proposed under the resolutions ? Had there been a Government at New York and another at New Orleans, the war between the Northern and Southern States would not have ended yet. A good deal had been made of the impending financial difficulties of the Colony, but that was no matter for glorification. An attempt was made to lay the whole blame and mismanagement on the Government ; but it appeared to him that the House was just as responsible for what was deplored. He was one who had never favored the Public Works policy. When it was introduced, he thought it a great mistake, He thought so still. He was opposed to borrowing in any shape. Had the Colony struggled along on her own resources, her progress might have been slower, but it would have been surer, and would have rested upon an infinitely safer foundation. Whatever might have been the . intention at first as to the spending of borrowed money, he made bold to say that a great portion of the money spent would not pay interest for years to come, and would remain a monument of the extravagance of the Government. Coming to the question of Separation, his idea of that was that Separation had really taken place in 1556, and the Colony had suffered from that ever since. He would not call the arrangements made then a Compact. It was the duty of a Government to administer substantial justice to every part of a country alike ; but, however fair the arrangement might have been when entered into, it subsequently required re-consideration. He ventured to say there never would be satisfaction until justice was done, and there was only one way to do that- make one purse for the Colony and the landed estate conpmon property. The people of the North Island contributed towards the purchase of the South Island, and they had a perfect right to enjoy the benefits derived therefrom. The honorable gentleman dilated at considerable length on the disparity of eircum^ stances in regard to the landed estate between the North and South Islands. Whatever members for Otago might say or do, the day must surely come when that state of things must be altered. He took it as a good omen to hear the member for Timaru says he would next year support Mr Whitaker's proposals. He regretted constantly hearing about Otago men, Canterbury men, and so on. He hoped to live to hear such phrases fall into disuse, and members only call themselves New Zealanders. As to the financial position of the Colony, he believed there was nothing for it but to retrench. lie had not a word to say about the Civil Service, or about corruption, or any of those charges so freely made, but having gone carefully over the estiinati&g, he believed an immense sum of money could be s&ved without impairing the efficiency of the Service in any way. The Native department alone was au ample field for retrenchment. Hitherto the fault of the enormous expenditure of the Colony was caused by pressure of the Provincial Govern^ ments.

The House rose at 6.30

In the evening sitting, the Separation debate was resumed.

Mr Rowe continued, saying that the pro» mises of subsidies made to Road Boards by the Government must be faithfully carried out, and he, for one, believed that the promises would be kept. The honorable member, in criticising the Counties Bill, said that while it would be regarded as a boon to a great many parts of the Colony, there were others for which it was not at aH adapted. The principle, hovvpver, was not to be found fault with, and nothing gave him greater pain than to hear his colleague say he should propose that the Bill be read that day Bix months.

Mr Kennedy opposed the resolutions, as being calculated to injure the credit and retard the prosperity of the Colony. The honorable gentleman defended his district against the accusation that it had secured a larger share of the public expenditure than it was entitled to. The proposition for establishing two proyinees appeared to him likely to create an exaggerated form of that Provincialism so m.uch objected to, and to be a great misfortune to the Colony. He dis agreed with the idea that three parliaments could be more economically carried .on than one. He saw no necessity whatever fop tjie

Counties Bill, though he thought the principle wa3 good. Road Boards would meet all the requirements, he believed, of the Colony ; certainly of his district.

Sir R. Douglas was surprised at the turn affairs had taken.. The Opposition, after wasting the time of the House and impeding business in every kind of way, and after carrying on this debate so far, now sneaked off, leaving the Government supporters to finish the debate. The honorable gentleman referred to the charges made against him that his support to the Government proposals had been purchased by an expenditure of £10,000 on public works in his district. The honorable gentleman, after explaining the whole circumstances of the case to show that he acted in a perfectly straightforward and irreproachable manner, maintained that the charges were utterly uncalled for, and without any foundation. He was always opposed to Provincialism, and because he recognised in the Government measures an attempt to give people local government he supported them. He cared nothing for the name Counties Bill, or any other name. One great reason why he dreaded Separation was the fear of the dominating power of the large centres of population. Mr Hamlin did not agree with the last speaker as to the good intentions of the Government towards the out districts, and quoted from the speech of Sir J. Yogel in 1865, when he strongly supported Mr Russell's Separation proposals, and when he said he had been a Separationist for years. Again in 1866 he reiterated his opinions, and, predicting that the desire for it would never die out, the honorable gentleman argued against the unwisdom of trying to govern both Islands under a cast-iron rule. What suited the South Island did not suit the North, and he asked in the name of common sense, why attempt to reconcile things that could not be reconciled ? It appeared to him that the last Parliament were the tools of the Government, and knew no more than the matting on the <loors what would succeed the system being swept away. He was utterly at a loss to know how anyone could place any confidence in the proposals of one whose who'e Parliamentary career was shifty and vacillating, and who had always trimmed his sails to catch the passing wind. They were told that Cook Strait was a bond of union between the two Islands. Why not go further, and say that the strip of sea between France and England cemented the bond of union between those countries and prevented war ? Fortunately they had an alternative scheme before them — that of Sir George Grey's, a gentleman whose antecedents were the very reverse of those of the gentleman at the head of the Government. He held that those who would support Sir George Grey's resolutions would be true representatives of the people. Last Session the representation of the Colony was increased ; but why was it done but to obtain more votes for the Government, and if they were beaten now it would be by the pocket boroughs of the Government, who were about forcing upon them laws utterly repugnant to them.

Mr Cox said that the resolutions reminded him of a certain paragraph he had seen headed " Mark Twain on Bad Musicians.'' The honorable gentleman, in the course of his remarks in dealing with certain statements made during the debate, referred to the satisfactory state of the natives in what not long ago were known as disaffected districts. He looked on the resolutions as very dry bones that wanted the breath of life breathed into them ; but although there had been a great deal of noise and rattling, they were still dry bones. The honorable gentleman protested against the member for Thames saying that the House was not a lepresentative body, and spoke at considerable length in opposition to the resolutions. The honorable member read several telegrams from some of his constituents, some expressing satisfaction at the Government proposals, and others requesting him to support Separation. Well, when he was canvassing for his election he made aU his constituents perfectly well acquainted with his opinions upon Separation and Abolition, and then declined absolutely to support Sir George Grey on these questions. His constituents made a great mistake if they thought he would be dictated to, and vote contrary to his convictions. But he knew how these expressions of opinion were obtained from his constituents. Had they been left to themselves they would not have been guilty of such a piece of bad taste.

Mr Barff deprecated the studied waste of time caused by the Opposition. There was a dreary debate mainly without argument on one 3ide, and now they were threatened with two more. Why uot attack the position of the Government at once, and not attack their policy piecemeal ; then allow the public business to be proceeded with. The honorable gentleman, after relating how Westland was driven to secede from Canterbury, said that if Mr Stafford had had the boldness to adopt the policy drawn up by the Toorallooral party iv 1868, much of the evils of Provincialism which had sinpe ensued would have been avoided. He considered Auckland a shock-, iug bad example of the effects of Provincialism It would be the best day for Auckland that she had known when Provincialism would be done away with. It appeared to him that when these resolutions were tabled those who supported them were perfectly well aware that they could not be carried. A weak device of the enemy was to float the rumor that the Government had agreed to abandon their Counties Bill. He was glad to know that it was utterly untrue, because, although not prepared to swallow the Bill wholesale, he held that it was a measure that nright be easily amended:

Mr Carrington opposed the resolutions.

Mr Pyke made a personal explanation with regard to a certain speech of his to his constituents, in which he supported insular Separation. With the object of repelling the charge of inconsistency, he explained that he had, on that occasion, supported Separa* tion which advocated the creation of large districts, with endowments and powers to parry on the functions formerly performed by Provincial Councils j and that when the Premier made his Wanganui speech, He felt that the views expressed in that speech were so perfectly in accordance with his own ideas that he felt bound to give them a loyal adhesion- OomiDg to tlie repplutions, he must say he never saw .anything so skjlfuUy deyi3ed ; but unfortunately for the Opposition there w^s no such thing as' an agreed opinion respecting these resolutions. First came the mover, who appeared to know nothing about the meaning of the resolutions. Then came the member for Waikato, who seemed to know more about the scope and object of the resolutions than any one else ; then the member for Parnell, who followed quite up to all the arguments of the member for Waikato ; and when the member for Taieri spoke, he supported the resolutions by a melancholy wail for defunct Provincialism. To him the resolutions appeared to have tvyo meanings, |t

was a cunning device to restore Provincialism. The way would be, that when the seat of Government was placed at Christchurch, Otago would say, Oh, we cannot go up to Christchurch, and we must have our own government. The fact was, they wanted to again roll in the bag of Provincialism, from which they had just dropped. He would ask, could her Majesty's Opposition do nothing better than this ? Why, they were unworthy the name, they were a mere accidental combination of fragmentary atoms. Referring to the remarks of Mr Gladstone, in dealing with the Constitution of the Colony, the honorable member quoted from the despatch of Sir George Grey, in 1850, which went to show that it was the intention that the General Legislature should gradually absorb the powers given to the provinces. The honorable gentleman then quoted from the speeches of Messrs Molesworth, Pakington, Russell, and Gladstone, to show that it wa3 the intention that the central Legislature should, if the people chose, be enabled to cut down and generally curtail the powers of Provincial Legislatures. The honorable gentleman, in dealing with a statement in Mr Macandrew's speech, said that during the last teu years the Otago goldfielda revenue was £376,076 ; and if, as was said, there was £45,000 per annum spent on goldfields, he could only say there was nothing to show for it. He was absolutely ashamed co. have to listen to the grossest charges against Ministers, that were utterly unproven, unfounded, and untenable, and more especially against Sir Julius Yogel ; but he had no doubt when these mists of political, and even lower, prejudices were cleared off, it would be admitted that to no one was the Colony so much indebted. The honorable gentleman referred to the practices cf the Opposition in trying to obtain supporters. In regard to himself, he had been subjected to cajolery and terror, and had been told in the streets of Dunedin that if he did not vote with Mr Macandrew, he would be mobbed when he came back. Telegrams had been sent to his constituents, and also those of Wakatip, to influence then. The honorable member, referring to Mr Macandrew's expression that Otago's revenue was more to her than the unity of the Colony, Baid he blushed for the honorable member when he gave utterance to such sentiment, and for Otago when they applauded. The honorable gentleman went on to argue that Separation would end in creating two hostile units, without common sympathies or common alms, and indicated that the true policy was to cherish unity by all means, as he looked forward to a federation of all Australian Colonies and probably, in the future, a federation of all the Englishspeaking race. Mr Wakefield, who had waived his right to speak in favor of Mr Nahe that afternoon, moved the adjournment. It was opposed by Mr T. Kelly, but Sir George Grey supporting it, it was agreed on the voices, and the House adjourned at 12.40.