FURNITURE TRADE DISPUTE.

Auckland Star, Volume XXXIV, Issue 60, 11 March 1903, Page 2

FURNITURE TRADE DISPUTE.

CONFERENCE BETWEEN

THE PARTIES

THE DEADLOCK CONTINUES

At 10.30 o'clock this morning a conference took place between representatives of the Master Cabinetmakers' Association and the Workers' Industrial Union. The meeting was held at the rooms of the Auckland Provincial Employers' Union. There were present, representing the employers, Messrs John Brown, Morrison, J. Winks, Garlick, 11. Brown and Smith (Smith and Brown), Mr Templcr (secretary to the association) being also present. The Union of Workers was represented by Messrs W. Aggers (upholsterer), C. W. Mason and P'rSlclntosh (cabinetmakers). Mr S. Tyson (secretary to the union) was also present, and Mr Tregear (Secretary for Labour). . On Air Morrison's proposition Mr 1 rehear was asked to take the chair. * ATTITUDE OF THE EMPLOYERS.

Mr John Brown said that before they! be<mn be thought that the ground should j be°fairly cleared, and he and the meeting would like to know the special reason for Mr Tregear coming amongst them and endeavouring to hold out the hand of peace and friendship. From the employers' point of view they could see no necessity for interference in the matter in any shape or form. They had quietly taker, their course and were quite'willing to allow time, the healer, to heal this trouble also. Mr Tregear had endeavoured 1o conciliate, both parties. They would like to know whether he was'there on his own account or on account of the Government? Fie thought it was possible they would at that conference clear away a good many cobwebs and for that purpose they should know the steps the Government proposed to fake in the matter. Covert threats had been made, as to what the Government could or might do. He understood from the informal meeting the other dnv that Mr Tregear wa« really serf here by the Premier to see what the trouble was and to report as to his opini n of the whole affair. The employers intends! to handle the matter without gloves. From the point of view of the D.S.C. he hoped that the whole matter—the whole complaint and tice that the employers thought they sufferecl-wouia be clearly set forth, and ihev would endeavour to give a frank answer to all they hart to say. MR TREGEAFt'S POSITIONMr Tregear in reply, said he felt very grateful to Mr Brown for giving him that opportunity of allowing him to publicly state why he had in any wnv interfered in this matter. *ot only his own personal inclination, but also his position as head of the Labour Department, made him not only cognisant of any labour trouble arising in New Zealand, but also gave him the right almost, of enquiring into it in the interests of both employers aud employees,! so that he might know, and in some way be able to try and see that both employers and employers who were, citizens of New Zealand were in a satisfactory position. He heard ilrst through the papers that there was lock-out in Auckland, involving 100 men. From other sources, he received information that made him inclined to think that the position was not so serious as was represented, lie said to the Premier, that it was impossible to do anything unless they got the real facts of the case, and asked, "Shall I go to Auckland and iind out the fa.Hs of" the case?" The Premier replied., "Go." Mr Tregear said he stood there not as the representative of the Government in an oilicial position, but as guardians of the interests of labour generally, to get the right view of the case. If he had come to ask them to lie allowed to mediate between them, it was not as an oilicial. He did not come as a bearer of threats, but because, mainly as head of the Labour Department, he found that 75 workers with their wives and families were suddenly rendered destitute. His personal inclination was to do all in his power to heal the breach. It. was impossible for the Ministers to silently pass over the. fact, that 70 respectable men aud their families. through no fault of (.heir own, were at present, destitute. Therefore it was his duty fo investigate the matter, although officially be did not appear as mediator. He simply came to Auckland and asked the employers to allow him the privilege of hearing their views, which was kindly agreed to. Tie asked the employees the same, and they also kindly gave him their side of the case. Still what he had done was quite unofficial. Both sides having agreed to meet and discuss the matter the present conference was the result. He had come, to Auckland

to try and. investigate the whole facts, of ilte case, lie was only present there in the hopes that by getting l!ie two sides together to hear each other, some amicable arrangement; might be arrived at. He regretted that the Lcgmlul tire had practically abolished the Conciliation. Board. What they wanted was to conciliate before going to the ('oun, for Awards. if both masters and men really tried fo conciliate there would be much Jess friction. Unless either party objected be would remain ,-iL the Conference. Mr Tyson said the union of workers had no objection to Mr Tregear heiii" present, an i taking the chair. They understood the Government had made these laws, and was quite justified in watching carefully to see how the laws were carried out. It was only right that an official should be sent up to watch proceedings step by step. Mr John Brown said he accepted the explanation made by Mr Tregear, and could promise that the representatives of the other side, as well as the chairman, would receive the utmost courtesy from the employers in every shape and form. (Applause.) Mr Tregear then asked the employers to state their position. Mr Brown said there was evidently some misunderstanding on the part of the gentlemen who represented the worker.-. The employers hud been asked to meet the committee, but they had no grievance, no semblance of a grievance. The employers had loyally carried out the award in its entirety. They bad simply acted within their'rights in this I matter. They had no grievance or complaint to lay before a sympathetic editor, or an open-air meeting. The employers accepted the position in its entirety and in doing so were now acting Within .heir rights. They had intended to get an explanation from the represenSrUvm of the Union, whom they believed

to be the whole cause of the trouble. The employers were quite prepared to allow time, the healer of many troubles, to settle this cue. If gentlemen would, however, open their casc,hc would frankly airl freely slate the position of the D.S.C. in the matter.

Mr Tyson said this was rather a surprise to him. So far as the Union of Workers was concerned they were prepared to abide by the award of the Court, but when they found men who under the previous award were deemed competent now dismissed as incompetent it seemed that .something wanted adjustin". Any man who considered himself incompetent could have his case dealt with by the union. It had been his practice in' such cases to ask employers for a list of the incompetent men. and the wages it was proposed to pay. This was considered by the union, and if reasonable agreed "to. On the other hand, if the men thought the schedule unfair the employers were told of it. He had endeavoured to get such sheets or schedules in the present case. One firm promised it, but there was a meeting of the Employers' Union in between, and he did not get ii. The D.S.C. sent the men 10 the union with a statement of the wages the company was prepared to pay. Knowing that the employers had met, he judged that they had decided upon united action in this matter, which he considered an attempt to break the award arid set the law at defiance. Had the union taken such a step the law would have come down upon it, lined them as a union, and individually as men if the union's funds did not hold out. He felt then, why should not the employers be prosecuted by the Government for their action in this matter. The union had always been, prepared to meet the employers freely and fairly. If the employers would meet. them, fairly they were willing to (lea! with the question of incompetent men.

Air Brown said this was an import ant ma.tier, and he would like it well threshed out. He did not think it wise to jump to any conclusions. He was prepared to sit there for a good while and hear all that was to be said by the other side.

Air Tyson said what the Union wanted was that men who received the minimum pay of 1/1 per hour under the former award should now receive the minimum rate fixed of 1/3 per hour and not be called incompetent workmen. As to the incompetent men, let the employers submit a schedule of wages proposed and tie Union would consider it fairly. Air Mason said that was shortly the Union's position, and there was no need for him lo reiterate what had already been said by Air Tyson.

Air Afclntosh said they had come to the meeting thinking there was some attempt to be made to settle matters, but apparently they were as they were before.

Air Tyson said it was ridiculous to say a man was competent for fifteen or sixteen years, and then all of a sudden sayhe was incompetent. Tt was not fair to pick out the best man who was receiving s_2 17/6 before when men were only getting 1/1 per hour and now set that man up "as a standard for average competency. The man who was honestly worth 1/1 before the award was worth 1/3 now. The man who was incompetent then was incompetent still and could he dealt with under the schedule. Replying, Air Brown said that it must not be taken for granted that what he said was the view of all the employers, but would be carried out. by the D.S.C. The unionists were not the only honest men in the world, but they must remember that commercial institutions were not benevolent associations. The D.S.O. was carried on solely in the interests of its 800 or 000 shareholders. Tf they could not run their business on profitable lines they simply slopped until they could. He admitted that a Government with a huge majority at their back could cripple every industry in the colony. He would not be a party to committing suicide by the employment of unremunerative men. They had heard a little time ago a threat of co-opera-tion: the D.S.C., (he most successful cooperative company in Xew Zealand, should he the last to be so threatened. Personally, he would welcome a cooperative factory, for it would show the difficulty under present conditions of making the undertaking successful. Regarding competent and incompetent labour Mr flrown -aid thnt there was just ns much difference between workmen as in anything else, and a discrimination must'be made. ITe slated that a lad who had served his apprentice-hip had applied for reappointment, in the factory at. the former minimum, hut had been refused a permit by the secretary of Ihe union. The essence of the matter was time and good work conbined. A man who did equally good work with one receiving the minimum, but taking double, the lime could not be profitably employed at the minimum. To say that trie action of the employers was a threat against the Arbitration Court was the veriest rubbish. Vi" am- action had tended to bring the Arbitration Court into ridicule it had been that of (lie union. The employers bad adhered absolutely to the ruling of the Arbitration Court in every detail. The employers still had the rignl to emnloy whom they wished and discharge whom they did not consider worth retaining. That was the only liberty and freedom allowed to employers. They were hampered by vexatious laws, and watched upon every point, and their only freedom left, was to be able fo employ whom they pleased, and they claimed (bat while they would carry out the law llicv wonh! not. renounce (hat position. The D.S.C, had only discharged a few hands, the bulk of the men being

<till employed by them. Those discharged could not. profitably "rv* employed. He challenged anybody to say that that position was untenable: it was the only

safeguard they bad against ruin. The employers must Bed would carry on their own business by their own methods. To accuse them of frying to flout the Arbitration Court was utter nonsense, ft was not to the interest of ;i business concern to flout or attack anybody, but to accent the position as well ;is they could. They bad not raised a hullabaloo, that had been done by the unio' The D.S.C. accepted the awr.rrf. and only n small number of their men had been thrown out. If anybody maintained that they had no right to do this things had come to a pretty pass. ATY Tyson spoke about the union not having been supplied with a sheet of wages; the D.S.C. had given the wages they were wilting to pay to every employee that had called making that demand. Air Tyson smiled, but that was absolutely true. They could employ those men profitably at the wage formerly paid, but not at the advanced rate. They were extremely sorry for the men, but their

dismissal could not be helped. The unions were responsible for tloutmg the act of the Government. Mr Tyson protested that the Union had not come there to listen to a lecture. Mr Brown, continuing, said that Mr Tyson had said that he could not understand why the Government did not prosecute the employers. The employers had kept perfectly within the meaning of til Act, in every shape and form, and had not taken any unwarranted steps. '. Mr Tyson said that what he had said was that if the employees had done what the masters had, they would have been prosecuted by the Government for conspiring. Mr Brown sa_ that had the employers taken any steps, laying themselves open to prosecution, the law would have been put into operation right away. Mr Tyson said that the employers had discharged men who were honestdly worth J/3 per hour. Mr Brown said that the men never were discharged; they were simply suspended, because they wore not comptcnt to earn the minimum wage. They claimed j that the employers only coull be the pidges of a man's worth, and that if they could better themselves they were ire? ,o please themselves. Mr Tregear: "And if they can not?" Mr Brown said that New Zealand was in a condition of unexampled prosperity, ahead of anything else in the world. Mr Tregear agreed, but asked if the whole furniture trade were closed against these men, what they were to do. Mr Brown did not answer the question, but after asking the chairman if he was at liberty to proceed, said that his company had only few men, and had taken no steps to thwart the Union or fill the places of the men who had left, although they had been inunrated with applications.' They had also received cables offering to supply them with furniture. To Mr Tyson: "You need not smile." Mr Tyson: "If makes me smile, knowing the facts/ Air Brown said that several large firms (not Chinese) in Australia had ..tiered supplies, but they had taken no s*eps m the matter. Up to the present the places had been left open for the men to come back on the old terms, and as soon as they proved their competency to earn better wages, they would be most cheerfully paid. These terms they considered perfectly fair, and if they were not accepted, "they would employ whom they pleased from that time forth, they would also purchase where they pleased and in their own way. The influence ot the continual awards of the Arbitration Court was prejudicial to the employees. The effect had been that the workmen believed that they but to move Mr Tyson and some others, and they were tin draggd before the Court, and evntually they got a rise. , ~ Continuing, Mr Brown said that the men did not make the best of their ability. ~ . ~ „ Mr Tregear said that this was rathei a lar-e and sweeping comment to make. Air°Brown said that he oould prove it, ror kauri was sent to Australia made info mantelpieces, which were sent here land sold at 25 per cent, less t han the home made article, though freight both ways and a duty of 25 per cent had to : be paid. .. j Mr Tyson said that the Austral.au employees got higher wages. j Air' Brown flatly contradicted this,! stating that the wages were not- , He was willing to take the men back it they came to-morrow morning. Mr Tregear asked if this meant that the men receiving the minimum wage ot 1/] would receive the minimum ot 1/3. Mr Brown said the. men would not be | taken on at the present minimum wage. They selected the. men for suspension | whom it would not do to pay the. i present minimum wage to, the sole reason of their discharge being that, they were incapable of earning the minimum ! W Mr' Tyson explained that the man, referred to stated he was capable of earning as much as any other man. but I was told he wanted experience. j Mr Tregear said the man was admitted j to be a fairly efficient young man Mr Brown had told them they offered to as- I sist the young man to go to Australia for experience. Mr Aggers said the union came there j in" a conciliatory spirit, and he hoped! that feeling would be followed at the, conference. It was to the interests of all fo settle matters. If the decision] was not all they wished they had to prK-et their disappointment, so the employers should do the same The wage awarded was paid in the South and should be paid here. Mr Alorrison said they had been paving men 1/1 an hour H the pasl and were ready to pay it sTiTi. Mr Tyson said the Court fixed the minimum rate of pay. but the employers seemed to think it should be the maximum. Air Morrison said they paid some men more than 1/3 per hour, the average man 1/3 and the incompetent men would require to take under 1/3 per hour. Air Tregear said he would like employers fo%onsidor the present position of affairs. If they did not relent, and the Union men did not relent, someone must suffer. It would be a nice thing if masters would offer fo let I he. men go back at 1/3 per hour, and give them a chance to prove that they were worth it. It seemed v y hard that 70 admittedly decent fellows, should be thrown out of work. Surely they might he given a, show. Mr Alorrison: "We are prepared to at the old wage. Mr Tregear said if the men were, not given a chance it meant that Auckland must loose 70 of the population, for they must go elsewhere for work. Air J. Brown in replying, said the Chairman had suggested they should take, the men back at wages they knew they could not earn.. It was unreasonable, to ask them to employ men at 1/3 when the masters knew they were not worth more than 1/1. Mr Garlick said they had elected Mr Brown as spokesman, and he bad put the case very well. He contradicted the assertion that the minimum rati; of pay was made the maximum by the masters. They were paying above the minimum to 20 or 30 men under the old award. They were prepared to take back all their old men at 1/1 and give them 1/3 per hour as soon as they proved themselves equal to earning it. It was no use to put the men on trial again, as they knew what they had done in the past. If a man "wap worth more than the minimum rate they would pay it. if they could not make a profit on a man's work at 1/3 per hour, what was the use of the man to them? They found now that they could import more cheaply, Mr Tyson said thej had come there

to try and arrange matters, and not to lecture to the press, to have it published abroad. They were practically as far off conciliation as ever they were. They were prepared to allow the men to go back to their work at the minimum rate, and arrange as far as incompetent men were concerned. Air Tyson said factories outside of the association were quite willing to pay the 1/3 per hour. Afr Tregear said while the mates could judge a man's value as a workman, his employer had merely to look at the work from a commercial point of view. He was disinclined to close the meeting unless some conciliation was made. My Tyson said as long as the men would concede the masters would take concessions. When it went to Court 'the men fought for 1/3. Air Brown said he wished to thank Air Tregear for the interest he had taken in this matter. The masters claimed that the position taken up Avas a reasonable one. They would pay the men what they deemed they were worth, but they would not give away the last shred of their rights as employers. He moved- a hearty vote of thanks to the chairman, which Air Tyson seconded, and was carried by acclamation. Replying to the vote Air Tregear said that if he could have ended the trouble he wmild have been one of the happiest men in New Zealand. He regretted the. non-success of the conference very deeply. But if there were no more concessions to be offered, and if each party was determined on its line, of resistance anything he could do in his capacity as conciliator was absolutely useless, and he would, therefore, have the honour to say good-bye to them.