COURT OF ARBITRATION.

Auckland Star, Volume XXIX, Issue 14, 18 January 1898, Page 2

COURT OF ARBITRATION.

SEAMEN'S UNION V. SHIP OWNERS.

(Before Mr Justice Williams (President), Messrs Henry Thompson, and Robert Slater.) The Court sat until five o'clock yesterday taking evidence in the case brought by the Seamen's Union v. the Northern Steamship Company and other shipowners. The greater part of the day was taken up by Mr Belcher, representing the Seamen s Union, in stating the case to the Court. In the afternoon Mr Belcher called evidence. The first witness was Mr Charles Ranson, manager of the Northern S.S. Company, Avho, in answer to Mr Belcher, deposed that prior to 1890 he thought the wages paid were ,£7 per man. He could not say from memory what overtime was paid. The wages were reduced in 1890 at the strike. It was in 1890, or simultaneous with the Union Company. The wages were reduced because the Company could not afford to pay any higher ? He could not say how much the Company saved by the reduction.

Mr Belcher: Do you think £10,000 an over estimate.

Witness said nothing like a quarter of that amount was saved the Company by the reduction.

Mr Belcher: You stated before the Board of Conciliation you would have given an increase of 10s per month without the intervention of the Union

Witness: I would at that time, but circumstances have altered. The men did not apply at all. There was no union at that time ; so many things have now been tacked on, and things are not as they were. There was a very bright outlook for Auckland about last August as mining was prosperous. In answer to further questions Mr Ranson said he had no antipathy to the Union. The men had not come to him with any grievances. Mr Belcher came but witness did not recognise him at all in the matter. He did not think the men had any grievances now.

Mr Belcher then read sCmo of the correspondence previously placed before the Board of Conciliation. He said he wished to point out that information had been derived by officers from men who know probably they would be discharged if they made complaints.

Mr Ranson said the Northern Steamship Company would not have discharged any man for telling the truth.

Mr Justice Williams: The observation is to some extent justifiable. Though an employer may not have the remotest intention of discharging a man for telling the truth, a man might hesitate if he had a grievance. He might not only be apprehensive of bis employer, but or an official subordinate to his employer. We know that subordinates are sometimes more zealous in their employers' interests than the employers themselves. A man may have a grievance and yet hesitate to make a complaint.

In answer to further questions by Mr Belcher witness said they were now paying seamen .£6 per month and firemen £8. They did not make cash payments for all overtime. An hour off was given for an hour's qvertime when not paid for in cash. Their men had worked cargo at the Thames, but it was exceptional. They did not like Sunday work, and it only occurred perhaps once in twelve months, His Honor : If it is so exceptional as to be only once in twelve months, there could be no objection to paying overtime. By Mr Belcher : The Company required one man, one officer, and one steward to remain on board the larger boats when in port on Sundays. In the very small boats only one.man stayed. The onicer took his turn , with . the men. The men did'not really keep watch. They could lie in their bunks and read if they liked, but the men named had to stay on board. As far as the Company was concerned, a seaman need not stay on the smaller boats when an officer was remaining on board.

Mr Belcher: The men tell me they are compelled to remain on deck. Mr Hanson said lie would hand a copy of the printed instructions to masters in this matter. He did not pay the men for the time they stayed on board on Sunday. He contended the men did not work seven days a week. They gave the men Sundays off as they could alternately. On the Clansman the turn to stay on board came once in six weeks.

Mr Belcher: There has been keen and ruinous competition, I believe, between your Company and the Terranora? Mr Ranson said he did not think he was called upon to expose the private matters connected with the management of his Company. His Honor: AYe don't want to expose your business, but if there has been competition there is no reason why it should not bo stated, because if fares were reduced the public already are aware of it. Mr Belcner: That is all I want to know, whether or not there has been keen competition. Mr Ranson : There was a keen competition, but as we carried three times as many people we made a profit, because the number pretty well equalised the reduction in rates.

Mr Belcher : Mr Ranson stated that the higher rates could not be paid the men because the times were so bad. Now he says, the extra number carried equalised matters. Evidently it is not the fault of the men who do the work but of the companies who carry on this foolish ruinous competition.

Mr lianson: I would point out, Your Honor, that the Terranora is not running in the Thames trade now, and the rates have been put up, but owing to the falling off of the public interest iii tliie mining industry Deople do not now go so much to the goldfields. During the boom people were travelling backwards and forwards in thousands. It is a very different thing now. The travelling of the public has hot been by any means so large this year. Mr Belcher : AVas time off give in Mongonui when the Board of Conciliation was sitting. Mr Ranson quire into it. Mr Belcher : It was on the Clansman

rl do not know, but will en

Mr Ranson said there were no records where time off was given. He always took it for granted that time off was given in Auckland.

Mr Belcher asked witness if they had a table showing the number of hours worked by the seamen the same as that for the firemen.

Mr Ranson said a table had not been made for the seamen. The reasbn why one was made for firemen was because that had been asked for. Under steam the seamen must work the same hours as the firemen.

Mr Slater pointed out that seamen worked when vessels were not under steam.

Mr Ranson, in answer to Mr Belcher, said that if a man did not want to tako his time off on any particular day, he could take it at another time if convenient. If they could not allow the time off, then the men got the cash equivalent. He did not know that men on his vessels had paid a lumper 5s to get half a day off. The men were paid 10s a day when they worked on holidays. He believed that had been done since last Christmas twelvemonths. Prior to that he believed the men had not been paid for holidays. They, however, represented the matter to him, and as he thought it was a fair thing for the men to be paid on statutory holidays, they had got it since. They did not make any deduction by time off.allowance for holidays. By Mr McGregor : The Northern Company had four classes of boats sea-going, partially smooth water, tenders, and launches. Before the great strike of 1890

the Union had no control over vessels in partially smooth waters. After the strike overtime was not paid on the river service. The agreement with the. old Seamen's Union was that no overtime should be paid on river boats. Since 1893 the wages all round had been £6 per month per man on the river boats. He had not had any complaints from the men that they were under paid. In the Paeroa river service the boats could not make double trips, being bound by the tide. The men on all the boats running there had a lot of spare time which the owners could not utilise. The boats had to remain there twelve hours at the least. That kind of service was almost entirely peculiar to Auckland. He did not know another service in the colony like it. There was no comparison between the way the men were worked on the liver service and that on the Union Company's boats. The circumstances were entirely different. Mr Slater: But the men cannot get home all the same.

Mr Ranson : They are home more frequently than the men on the Union boats. The hardships of a seamen's life referred to by Mr Belcher did not apply to those engaged in the river service. The men on the Wakatere where in port every night. Neither overtime nor time off was given in the river trade. He should say the trade with the goldtields had fallen to its normal condition. There was nothing in the present outlook to warrant any increase of wages, because he thought the trade was likely to decrease. He did not think 7 per cent, per annum, without providing for insurance or depreciation, a high rate. They had a nominal depreciation fund, but the money was invested in their own boats. By Mr Niccol: There had been increased cost of working the boats since the Shipping Act came into force. In the olden time they did not employ as much shore labour as they did at present. They fed the men on Sundays, and as some lived on board they could not lock up the ship. Although the men thought they should not stay on board on Sunday, they had a right to come on board for their meals.

Mr Slater : That is the case with all shipping companies. By Mr Belcher: Witness could not tell exactly how many boats were on the Thames river trade in 1893. He should think not quite so many as at present. The tonnage was considerably greater at present than it was in 1890. The Northern Company took over the river trade by purchasing out a firm. That was after the wages had been reduced. Mr McGregor said from 1890 to 1893 the wages were £7 per month. In answer to Mr Belcher, witness said when the cargo was discharged at Paeroa, the men bad nothing further to do. AVhen a vessel left Auckland at 5 o'clock in the evening she arrived at Paeroa at 2 next morning. The men then turned in until 8 o'clock. The handling of cargo after that took three or four hours. The vessel did not leave for Auckland until 3 o'clock that day. On the way up the men worked watch and watch. She would arrive about 11 o'clock and the men could then turn in until 8 o'clock next morning. Three trips like that were made every week. Mr Belcher: I don't see much of the spare time you referred to. Mr Ranson: About every three days the men get home. As a rule when on the river all hands could turn in, as the river was a curious one, and the Captain took the wheel himself- In the Thames trade, the AVakatere left at a quarter to 9 o'clock that morning. The men had been Working since 8 o'clock. It was possible they might have to take cargo on before 8 o'clock. One watch would take her down. Fuller details would, however, be given by the Captain if required. Mr Belcher: How many vessels have you added to your fleet since 1890. Mr Ranson : I should say 12 vessels approximately. Mr Belcher : Then you build new vessels although times have been so bad ? Mr Itmson : We had to replace four or five.

Mr Belcher: Can you tell what extra expense you have been put to by the operations of the Shipping Act? Mr Ranson ? I can get you these facts by-and-bye. Mr Belcher : Can you give one instance ? Mr Ranson : Captain Farquhar is present and can tell you about the Clansman. Captain Farquhar : Two seamen. Mr Belcher : What is the tonnage of the Clansman ?

AVitness : 336.

Mr Belcher: Under the Shipping Act a vessel of that tonnage only requires to carry five seamen. AVhy are you carrying seven ? AVitness: Partly because it was more convenient for the working of cargo.

Mr Belcher: Then it is all nonsense to blame the Shipping Act for increasing the cost of working in that case. His Honor said he would like a return of the vessels to which extra hands had been added as a result of the coming into operation of that Act.

Mr Belcher -. The Shipping Act does not apply to inside vessels. Witness: No.

Mr Belcher : Are you aware that one of your hands had tinned fish for his Christmas dinner ?

AVitness : No; it was wrong if such was the case, , It must have been a private arrangement between him and the cook. It was not a general custom for the. cook to go away, but at times he might arrange with the men to do so.

George Gow, assistant superintendent engineer of the Northern Company, deposed he compiled the table re hours worked by firemen. He got the data from the engineers. As far a? he knew the tables were true in every particular. Mr Belcher :■ I shall show that these tables are incorrect, your Honor. Why were these compiled ? Mr Gow : To show the difference of the "time worked by the firemen under this Company and those engaged #011 other \ lines. The tables gave the actual steaming time. He knew that two men were on at one time. The firemen' worked six-hour watches. Mr Belcher : Do you think it a fair way to arrive at how many hours the men work i by taking the number of hours actually \ steamed and dividing it by the number of' firemen on board the vessel when they are ' not all on at the same time.

Witness : That was an oversight on my part. His Honor: This is of course thoroughly misleading. AVill you kindly explain how how you divided 4-6 by 4 instead of 2. Witness : If you take the steaming time of the vessel, and that the work is done by four firemen, you get that result. Mr Belcher : You have the Clansman running 138 hours per month. AVitness : That was taken from the returns for six months in the year. The other six months she takes up the running to Tauranga as well. The Clansman was not running to Tauranga when these returns were made out.

Mr Belcher: The returns do not show the hours the firemen worked after the vessel had done steaming? Witness: No. What are the average hours a fireman works ?

That is a very mixed question. The men work six hour watches.

As the Clansman is entitled to carry three firemen, could not they work four hour watches ?

They could, but the men prefer the other system. One man could fire on the Clansman, Wellington, Gairloch, Glenelg, AVaiotahi, and AVaitangi. His Honor : Do you mean to say the men prefer to work two six hour watches in 24 hours in preference to two four hour watches in 24 hours ?

Mr Gow : The Clansman does not run continuously.

Mr Hanson said the engineer of the Clansman was in attendance, and as the boat had to leave shortly perhaps the Court would question him on the subject. Charles Richard Massey, engineer in chief on the Clansman, deposed the fireman watches were six hour between Auckland and Russell, a run of 11$ to 13 hours. They coaled at Opua, four miles from Russell, and returned to Russell, ' where they laid under banked fires from two o'clock in the afternoon until three o'clock next morning. The fireman kept the donkey-engine going. They next went to Whangaroa, then on to Mongonui, where they arrived at 11 o'clock in the day and left at 5 o'clock next morning. When a vessel was under banked fires some one had to keep an eye upon the engine. The greaser and fireman looked after that, as the fire was sufficiently low to be safe. The same thing could not be effected if the firemen were put on four hour watches. He could not see how it would work On the Clansman. In that vessel they were now carrying one man more than Was required by law. Mr Slater: How many hours do the firemen work ?

Witness : They must work six hours each two nights a week. The other four nights the vessel was alongside wharves. By Mr Ranson : The Clansman was only running six months in the year steaming two nights a week, and six months steaming four nights. Taking the average he did not think their firemen worked eight hours per day every month. His Honor: The firemen are on duty before you start and after you stop ? AVitness : Yes.

Mr Belcher : When you leave at 7 o'clock the firemen have been kept going all day cleaning ? Witness: Yes; but there is nothing Laborious about that work.

TO-DAY'S PROCEEDINGS. AVhen the Court resumed this morning, Mr G. Gow was first called to continue his evidence. In answer to Mr Belcher witness said he made periodical visits to the vessels. He last saw the Glenelg about three weeks ago, but was not on Board. The Glenelg carried two firemen. The Glenelg's indicated horse-power was 350 tons. The Act stated vessels of that tonnage should carry three firemen. The Glenelg carried two firemen and a trimmer. The firemen were paid £8 per month and the trimmer £5 per month.

Mr Belcher: You carry a trimmer instead of a third fireman, and thus save £3 per month. What is the Ohinemuri ? She has a seagoing certificate, but most of her work is inside. She runs north about once a month. Her indicated horse power is 129. Mr Belcher: The Act says that vessels over 100 h.p. and under 250 shall carry two firemen. How many firemen are there on the boat ?

She carries a fireman at £8 per month and another man at £4 per month. Mr Belcher : Shehas not her complement of men ?

It appears not. Do firemen work on Sunday ?

Yes, on the Gairloch, but the men get paid for that work, so the engineer told me, and I take his word for it. lam not aware that this Sunday-boiler work was done on other of our vessels. The men on the Gairloch kept six hour watches. Is it not for your own convenience that six hour shifts are worked.

I am told that the men prefer that system. Mr Ranson : Are you aware the Ohinemuri has not been outside of extended river for five months?

I was not,

Mr Ranson -. That is so. You are aware that under the extended river certificate we aie not forced to have an engineer ?

Yes, a river engineer would do, but when we take up the «unning outside we require an engineer. By Mr McGregor : None of the seamen or firemen complained to him before Mr Belcher arrived that they were dissatisfied.

Mr Belcher: Is it not a fact that these vessels with a coasting certificate may run outside when required. AYe could run the vessel in the river. Mr Belcher: The manning of vessels goes by the certificate. His Honor : I don't see the relevancy of this. If /he Company has not complied with the shipping Act, it can be dealt with by other means. Mr Belcher: My object is to show that the Act so far has not increased the cost of working vessels, because the extra men were not employed.

Mr Ranson: I suppose you are aware that as long as we run in extended river limits we. are not bound to carry the men required for the outside trade. His Honor said that was all regulated by the Shipping Act of 1884.

Mr Slater: Do you hold three certificates ? Yes. Mr Leyland : There is a discrepancy between the wages paid to seamen and firemen. As an engineer I should like to ask you, Mr Gow, whether, comparing the work on large coasting steamers and that on small vessels sailing out of Auckland, there is any difference in the conditions of the work done.

Yes ,- the firemen on small steamers may get a lot of fresh air.

With regard to seamen, should they not be as well paid as firemen? AVitness : A sailor is liable to be called on deck at any time when it is his watch below. A fireman is not liable to be called unless in very exceptional cases.

Do not you think that it was the exceptionally hard work of the firemen in the tropics that had something to do with giving them better wages than sailors ?

Yes. In these small steamers such customs should not apply. I never could understand why on such vessels firemen should get so very much more than sailors, because the latter undoubtedly are the hardest worked.

Malcolm Niccol being called by Mr Belcher, deposed he was shipping agent and had no registered interest in the Terranora. Formerly that vessel was run on the Thames trade. Now she was carrying maize. The seamen were paid £6 and the firemen £8 per month, and overtime. Overtime was not paid when in the Thames trade. They had opportunities of getting men for less wages, but had not taken advantage of it. They were carrying three firemen now that they were running outside. The cheap fare's to the Thames did not result in much loss. They carried so many extra passengers that it made up the difference. The Terranora did not make any money in the Thames trade. He was still of opinion that the Terranora was a seaman's paradise. That was a comparative term. He would not think he was in paradise if lumping 300 pound sacks of maize. He was aware that there had been considerable changes on the Terranora. That was usually owing to the incapacity of the men, or else that they were addicted to liquor. There was not a shadow of truth for saying the Terranora was what was called a hard-up boat, only to be taken when work could not be got elsewhere. As a matter of fact they were pestered with men who wanted to be taken on. The majority of changes were made by the captain. AVhat kind of a man is this captain ? Is there anything peculiar about him ? . He is a man something like yourself. Well, what kind of a man do you think lam ? Come on, let me know, then I can judge what the captain is like.

His Honoi own opinion. Mr Belcher to Mr Niccol: You don't dare to express it.

I think we can form our

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