WOMEN IN THE CHURCH.

Auckland Star, Volume XXV, Issue 248, 17 October 1894, Page 2

WOMEN IN THE CHURCH.

PROPOSED ENFRANCHISEMENT.

DISCUSSION AT THE SYNOD,

THE PROPOSAL REJECTED,

A lively, and also lengthy discussion topk place yesterday at the Diocesan Synod upon tho interesting question as to whether or not women should be allowed to vote at parish meetings, and for the election of Synodsmen. Heretofore, this subject has usually come on late in the session, and further consideration deferred, bub this year Mr H. Crispe evidently determined to be early in the field, and succeeded so well that ib was practically fche first question brought before the Synod which evoked discussion. In accordance with notice given in the report of the Sbandiug Committee, Mr Crispe moved, "Tbab it is desirable that the canons of the General Synod be amended, so as to give women power to vote at pariah meetings and at the election of Synodsmen, and the General Synod is hereby requested to take such action as they in their wisdom consider requisite to carry ib out." He contended that if they fo.'und thab the constitution of tho Church could bo improved, why nob do ib. He '■ urged thab as women worked hard for tlie Church they were entitled to vote in the management.

Mr J. H. Uoton seconded the motion, g

The President Baid ho hoped Mr Crispe would nob endanger the part Of his motion by the second half. Mr Crispe said he would divide his motion. He considered the assistance of the women would greatly strengthen the power of the Church. He could nob see any reason why this privilege should not be granbed to the women in bhe Church, as had already been done in politics.

Rev. Dr. Purchas said, this was a question that would have to be considered all over the world. Ib was nob wise to say "'let women keep their old places." He thought they should consider whether the women had always received justice. He had no doubb that i& was both right and expedienb thab this righb should bo granted to tbe women. He could soe no reason whatever againsb the granbing of bhe privilege. Ab presenb they let the women do the work, bub gave bhem no voice in the management. Mr Upton" thought the subjecb one worthy of great consideration. He thought they mighb ask why this privilege bad not been granted before. They could noo afford bo ignore the spirit of tho age. Tbab institubion which ignored the spirit? of the age must become moribund. The idea that woman was a subordinate creature came with religion from the East. Their Western idea of religion was one of extreme freedom.

Mr Andrews said thab woman was made as a helpmeeb for man, and thab was the position in which she was held by fche Church. If they admibted women to one position, they must grant them all.To grant the privilege would be to revorse the dectrine of the Church from the earliest time. They had not heard of any demand being made by the female communicants for this privilege. Rev. Kabterns said he believed the women had no desire to be placed upon an equality with the men in this matter. He considered the proposal was opposed to the teachings of tho Bible. The speaker quoted Sb. Paul, "I suffer no woman to teach a man," and further on " I sutler no woman to teach in the church." Mr Katterns said he did nob dispute that, individually, women were intellectually often equal bo men, bub as a rule they had not bhe balance that men had as a wholo. They had no evidence that the Lord had appointed a woman as a teacher. ' The President said thab one ancient authority of the Church had written that the firsb apostle sent by the Lord was a woman.

Rev. Katterns: Do you allude to Mary Magdalene, My Lord ? It does not sbrike me thab she was an apostle sent oub to teach. The President: I only quoted the words of an ancient Father.

Rev. Kabberne: A command was nob given her bo beach as it was to the apostles. Rev. Dv Rieu said the question of voting aba parish meeting was not a matter of divine authority to teach. Rev. Katterna said ib mighb go hard with an old minister if the women had a vote, and some of them took a dislike to him. He was quite prepared to give full credit to the women for the way they worked for the Church.

MrS. Luke said he would support the motion, as he knew the work done by women in the Church. They could not carry on the Church without the help of the women. It was only fair that while they helped In the Church they should have the righb to vote. They musb keep up with the age.' Mr Vincent Rice feared thab if woman's posibion was altered in tho Church, ib would impair her usefulness. Ab present bhe women were away from the Little Pedlington of vestry matters. He considered thab the women as a whole did not want this privilege. Mr J. Batger spoke in favour of placing women on an equality with men in this matter. It was simply a question of representation, and he should vote for bhe motion.

Archdeacon Dudley said ho was nob prepared to vote in this matter in the direction indicated by the President in his remarks. He was not prepared to support this motion. They saw that in politics the women of New Zealand had been given a vote, but the experiment was yet too new to see what would be the result. The Church could afford to waib and see how thab vote was used. Tho question required to be considered as to whether ib was not the duby of the Church to act in the way of a Legislative Council and to bo sometimes conservative in order to check the presenb tendency towards experimental legislation, which was leading they knew nob where. He, in company with many others, folb very uncomfortable on these points. He felb ib a grave matter to differ wibh others who had spoken in favour of this motion. There were many arguments in favour of granting bhis franchise bo women, but this was a matter in which the opinion of the whole Church should be taken, and nob a small section like this Diocese.

Rev. G. Mac Murray agreed with the last speaker thab this was a question thab required to be considered by bhe whole church. He would, therefore, move as an amendment " That in the opinion of this Synod, it is nob desirable that the General Synod should by legislation alter the status of women in the Church, until the advice of the Lambeth Conference of 1897 be first obtained."' Mr Macmurray said if he considered that a slur was cast upon women by nob having this privilege be migbb think otherwise. He could hardly remember an instance of a woman saying she was dissatisfied in this matter. Such a radical change of consti-^ tubion should not be made without first obtaining the opinion of tho whole Anglican community of the world.

Rev. Burrows seconded the amendmenb. Mr W. J., Speight moved, VThab tbe Synod do now pass to the next business on the Order Paper." .... Thia was seconded by Mr Kensington,

and, upon a.division being taken^was lost, the voting being -—Ayes : Clergy 21, laity 10.. [ Noes: Clergy 15, laity. 29. The discussion was then resumed. .

Mr Upfcon contended this was a mabter with which the Lambeth Conference had nothing to do.. This was purely a quesbion of local organisation. ' ■ ; ;. Mr Templer thought a little warb on bhe face o:f bhe earth, as New Zealand was, might fairly go oubsida and take advice from older countries before acting in this matter. He considered the mobion was a revolutionary one. Canon Bates sympathised entirely wibh Mr Crispe's motion; at the same time he did nob see reason*for immediate action, and would vote for the amendment.

Mr E. if. Cox spoke in favour of deferring the matter and getting farther information upon the subjecb. Archdeacon Willie opposed the amendment, and expressed the hope that the motion would be carried, as fche women were the best workers in the Church. ■ J

The Rev. Mr Gould supported the ecclesiastical enfranchisement of women, and said that they should not waib unbil they were allowed to vote in the Senate Halh of the country. A voice : Why, they're voting already. Mr Gould : Oh, yes, but we're talking of good, Christian women. (Loud laughter.) Mr J. D. Jackson was in favour of the enfranchisement of women in the Church, bub he would vote for fche amendment. He had had some practical experience of the emancipation of women, bub h.e would nob brouble fche Synod with any illustrations of the enfranchisement of women. (Laughter.) ■ .. . , The Rev. Mr Hawkea considered thab women were the life of the, Church, and thab their enfranchisement would revolu tionise and revivify the country churches especially. The indifference of the men was imperilling the Church. If women were admitted., to. the ecclesiastical franchise ib would be of incalculable advantage to the Church. . Womon had in all ages been prominent workers in the Church. Deborah was a woman, Priscilla was a woman (laughter), and a reverend gentleman who had jusb opposed bhe motion should remember that he had had a mother, and she was a woman. (A voice, "Go on," and laughter.) The Rev. Mr Wyabb added his quota to (he argumenbs in favour of fche enfranchisement of women, and characterised the amendment as a complete shelving of the question. He spoke in strong praise of the work of women in the Church, and Baid that in bhe country their help was invaluable. Men were mosb indifferent, as a rule, in the counbry as far as Church work was concerned. In many country places often only one man could be counted to be in bis place in church on Sundays, and fchab was the clergyman. (Laughter.) There was, too, a great difficulty in many a country districb in getting a quorum of men to conduct church affairs. He hoped the amondment would not be carried.

The Rev. Mr Beatty said fchab to him the fact that such a propoßal should have been brought forward in the Synod seemed a sign bhab they were rushing on to chaos. He considered that the admission of women fco vobe in bhe Church would undermine.the Church and undermine society. They found nothing of the so-called equality of bhe sexes in the Old Testament or in the New Testament, but the doctrine of the equality of the sexes was to be found in the writings of such men as those who stirred up the French Revolution. (Applause.) It was eesontially the teaching of anti-Christ, although no doubb many of those who supporbed ib were far bebter Christian men than he was. The proposal- was flying in the face of bhe divinely-constituted distinction between the eexes. Woman's characteristics were of the emotional nature, while men were more fitted forruling and conducting affairs of government. Justice was an exclusive qualification of the .-masculine sex. He considered thab to apply the adjective "just"to a woman was quite out of the question, for in the average woman justice did nob exisb. * (■"Oh " and laughters) He felt it his duty to solemnly warn all those members of the Synod who supported the proposal, that he could see serious and great dangers ahead in church, social, and family life if this novel, uncalled-for, and revolutionary measure were carried into effect. (Applause.) The Rev. Mr Walsh said tbab he would be the lasb to oppose the motion if it could be shown that women desired the vote. He paid a tribute to tho work of fche ladies in the Church, bub he did nob believe bhab they really wanted to vote at all. The motion was based on a supposed antagonism of the sexes, which did not exist, for the two sexes worked in unison, and tho women did their work in their own way.

The Rev. Mr Haeelden considered that the Bishops who would meet in England would be much more capable of coming to a decision on tho matter than the Synod, for the question wae one of such wide importance and moment. He disagreed with Mr Beatty's remarks on bhe subject of the justice of women, and asked, who was ib bub a woman that was invariably represented in figures of Justico? (Voices : " A blind woman," and laughter.)

The Rev. Mr Lush opposed the motion, and in doing so said that bhe ecclesiastical enfranchisement of women would only have the resulb of bringing the masculine women to bhe fronb—and the masculine woman was tbe most abominable being on the face of bhe earth. (Laughter.) There was only one thing worse than a masculine woman and that was an effeminate man. He considered that bhe mosb womanly women in the Church did nob desire to vote, and he was of opinion thab the expression of desire for a vote on the part of the woman—if. it existed —came only from those women whom he hud stigmatised as masculine.

Canon Nelson appealed to the Synod not fco vote for the amendment, for it would be no use at all to refer the matter to fche Lambeth Conference. He trusted, bhe Synod would not vote for the amendment, bub thab they would be manly and give an "aye "or "no" on the original quesbion. If bhey conceded tbab the case of the women had justice on iba side, andithab it would do no harm, which he believed ib would nob, then they should not deny the claims of the women to a vote. The granting, of a vobe bo bhe women would stir them up to increased activity in the work of the Church. He spoke strongly at some length in support of the motion. On the question being put, Bishop Cowie was of opinion thab bhe voices were in favour of Mr Crispe's mobion.

On a division being called for, bhe resulb was:

For the motion : Clergy 11, laity 22. Againab bhe motion : Clergy 24, laity 18. The motion was therefore defeated by 42 votes, against 33 for. The amendment was then put, and a division was called for, resulting as follows : —Ayes : Clergy 18, laity 15. Noes : Clergy 17, laity 25. The amendmenb was declared to be lost, by 42 votes to 33. The Rev. Mr Gould brought a further proposition to bhe effect tbab the question of allowing women to vote at parish meetings, etc., be referred to the General Synod, but the Bishop said that this was not necessary. Nothing that would reaffirm the substance of Mr Crispe's motion could now be considered. He thought that the matter had now been disposed of.

With regard to the enfranchisement of women, the Synod, therefore, stands "as you were."

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