House of Representatives.

Auckland Star, Volume XX, Issue 4080, 10 August 1883, Page 4

House of Representatives.

Iby telkgbaph -special reporter,]

THUKSDAY.

The lAOellous Native Petition. At the afiernooa sitting Mr Peabson gave notice to ask Government if they intend making inquiries as to the allegations against the JVcw Zealand Land Company contained in the petition presented by the Native Minister and printed in " Hansard." A Question of Privilege. Mr Dick said he had a question of privilege to bring up. He then complained of a paragraph which appears ia the "Evening Post" of last night, owing, apparently, to the fact that Mr Fish had communicated to the Dunedin Chamber of Commerce the. business transacted by the Telephone Committee, of which he was a member. He moved the adjournment ot the Houae. Sir Geo. Grey expressed bis opinion that no breach of privilege had been committed.

Mr Bake )N asked had the motion of Mr Dick placed the matter fairly before the House ? It was not at all relevant to the matter of privilege. Mr Siiekhan said the proper course was to move that a breach ot privilege had been committed, and then the publisher of the paper should be summoned to to the bar of the House.

Mr Montgomery thought the moving of the adjournment of the House was irregular. Major Atkinson apprehended that Mr Dick merely was led to bring the matter beforo the House and let it pass. Mr Dick then withdrew bis motion. Disfranchisement of Government

Servants. Mr Mitchelson asked—Will Government, in order to prevent pressure being brought to bear upon members, bring in a bill this or next session to disfranchise the whole of civil servants, railway, and other Government employed throughout the colony ! If not, will they facilitate private members doing so! He said the question wasa very imporiantone. The power of civil servants had grown much and was still growing, and if it was allowed to go on they would soon rule the country.

Major Atkinson said the matter was of great importance. It had not been considered by the Government, and the state of "public business would not permit anything to be done this session, but next session prirate members would have an opportuni'y of bringing on such a measure. Mr Seddon moved the adjournment of the debate.

Mr Moss seconded. He said he would have preferred to hear Government state at once that they would not entertain any such proposal, *Vas it to go forth to the country that Government would be prepared to allow a measure to be brought forward to disfranchise a large body of fellow-colonista because they earned iheir bread from Government? Were they to disfranchise all the school teachers and their relations ? Mr FISH followed in a similar strain, when Major Atkinson expressed a hope that a discussioa would not take place on the matter. Nothing that he had said would give colour to the deductions drawn by the Opposition, Sir Gko. Grey said if Governm«nt did peimit the introduction of such a measure it would bo opposed by this side of the House.

Mr Grkhn said the remarks of Major Atkinsoa did not convey the impression that the Government would favour Euch a measure.

rtfter further remarks the motion for the adjournment of the debate waa withdrawn.

Nova Scotian Immigrants. Replying to Mr MitchkliSon's question ro immigration from Nova Scotia, Mr Rolleston said he quite recognised that Nova Scotians had proved valuable pioneers of colonisation, but it would be manifestly unfair to the Nova Scotian Government to entice away people who had perhaps been as-si*tcd in immipratine to that colony. Sir GEOKOK Gkky moved the adjournment of 'he House for the purpose of asking Mr Kolleston it arrangements could not be made whereby immigrants from Nova Scotia could be examined after arrival here, allowance for assistance being made on their passing examination. He testified to the valuable nature of Nova Scotian settlers.

Mr SHEEHAK seconded the motion for the purpose of making the statement that Nova Scottans were the best settlers in Auckland.

Mr dargaville also bore favourable testimony. Be said these people came from a virtuously reared and hardy race, as testified by the tact that there were over half-a-doiien people in Waipu now over 100 years of age. They were industrious, frugal, and, for their condition, fairly well educated. They co?t the country nothing for police protection, as crime was almost unknown auionpst them.}

Mr Kollkstok promised to consider the quesdon.

Customs Offices for Onehunga. Replying to Mr Hamlin, re stationing of a permanent Custom-house Office at ilnehunga, Major ATKINSON replied that the present arrangements worked very well, and Government would not make any change unless complaints were made, when they would consider the question, Hie Escaping Prisoner at Wellington. In reply to Mr Seddon, without notice, Mr Coholly replied that the man Ryan who inadvertently escaped from custody a few hours before legal discharge, and had thus forfeited twelve months' remission of his sentence, would bo discharged in a fortbight. Mr Atkinson asked leave to postpone re discharging of the name of Mr burst from the Dargaville Allegations Committee till to-morrpw, stating as his reason that ho wished to substitute the name of Mr Mason for that of Mr Fitzgerald. Auckland jLoan Bill Amended in

Committee. The Bouse went into committee on several local bills, including the Auckland Additional Loan Bill. An amendment waa made enabling a special rate to be levied up to 2s aa under the existing Act Instead of la 3d. This can be raised or borrowed witbi* these limits as may be necessary to meet the interest. The clause relating to Library rate was struck out,as it is leviable independent of the rate authorised by the bill.

Mr Driver's motion re Direct Steam Service Select Committee was carried without discussion, The Committee will report in 7 days. The House went into committee on the Criminals Execution, Property, Law Consolidation, and Chattels Security Bills. The first was reported without amendment. In connection with the second, Mr De LAUTOUR Bald he had not considered the bill, but on some of the bills that had been before the Statutes Bevision Commission various errors had occurred. In one, for instance (the criminal code) one of the interpretations, through error, was the cause of imprisonment for life. Mr Conolly agreed to defer consideration of the bills. .Regarding the third bill, Mr Conolly intimated that since it was last before the House, the Government bad taken it up. The bill was considered, but no amendment mad j up to the 5,30 adjournment At the evening sitting in cauimittee the Chattel Securities Bill was slighlty amended and reported. Native Land Laivs Amendment

Bill. Mr Bryce then moved the second reading of the Native Land Laws Amendment Bill. He said the object of the bill was to endeavour to improve the method of dealing with native land. He was sure that whenever claims for justice were preferred by natives in connection with their lands, they would receive proper consideration at the hands of the House (bear.) Mr Bryce ihm referred to his efforts duriDg the past few years with a view to the introduction of a measure, and the circumstances which had led to those efforts being unsuccessful until the present time. He had been told in reference to this bill that he would receive considerable support from members on the other side of the House, and with this he was pleased. It was generally conceded that the .Native Land Court was in a very unsatisfactory condition, and that the title to the native lands ought to he ascertained in a mucn more simple manner than provided at present. Jn constituting these Courts with judges we had probably gone too far in tae direction of making them courts of law t He thought it would have been much better had the judges been given some Maori title that would better indicate their functions and position. He could produce maps showing the extraordinary manner in which Maori lands had to be divided and sub-divided by the Court before anything liko satisfaction could be given. The greatest difficulty, he thought, experienced in dealing with these lauds arose through the practice of buying before determination of title. Such practice was not countenanced by law at present. Mr Bryce theu entered into an

explanation of the mannerin whl*h -i i to lands came before the Cowl;^ penses of bringing claims before the L^l were often very heavy, and the fait that the parties who we™ ct in the dispute had to be pad *s* no doubt, the cause of many of trip ~ ' being protracted over as W » Jr ? el as possible before being settled n penod quite of opinion that it was aye» 'J™? calamity to the colony when ia 1865 tW decided lo waive the pre-emptive ri»j,, ? the Crown. In epite of the fac tH tlt well known that it was illegal to Dur,h j lands until ascertainment of title, pe O nk had gone on for years purchasing ffi before the titles were ascertain,*? Justing to the honour of the ffi Ia the matter, and he (Mr jgS was bound to say, greatly to the credit of the Maoris, they had Jaithfully kent £ their bargains. Since he had been in office he had scarcely entailed any fresh mir chases, but had endeavoured to curtail the expenditure as much as possible, and wina up bargains that he found existing when he came into office. He was assured it was the fact that in many cases, while the lawyer who appeared nominally for Maoris to conduct their cases in Land Courts, for which he received large fees yet at the same time, while the land was | going through, the very lawyer who a D . peared for the natives was arranging to bay the had in question on behalf of certain European clients. (An hon. member"lt's a fact") Could the colony afford | it, he would be strongiy in favour I of the pre-emptive rights being re-entered iby the Crown; but there was more difficulty in the way, and therefore he wag not prepared at present to ask the House to revert to that system, He hoped this bill might cure the ills of which he complained. It did not change the law, but it imposed penalties for breaches of that law, and if this failed to stop the evils, he would next year be ready to ask the legislature to restore the pre-emptive rights, though it should be necessary to raise a fresh loan for the purpose. (Hear, hear.) The bill proposed to simplify the procedure in the Land. Court, which would result in increasing the chances of justice being dealt all round. Ha strongly urged the House to pass the clause which provided that theevidencein the Court should be limited to the Maori claimants themselves. It was hoped that the Native Committee Bill would assist the Court in coining to a just decision in regard to the tile ot native laud, by affording the Maoris facilities for investigating claims beforehand among themselves. Mr Bryce resumed bis seat amid Ministerial cheers.

Mr Dblautouk though^ if anything, Mr Bryce had understated the case. He characterised the past dealings with the Maoris as a series of blundering and plundering which had led to moat unhappy rosults. Be went into the history of the Land Company, and argued that its opera. tions were in the interests of. the Maoris, In conclusion, he said he sup. ported the bill, and thought Mr Bryce did more good in initiating such legislation than in making a harle. qninade through the King Country by the grace of God and the leave of Wahanui. Mr Moss would be sorry to ccc the bill c»rried without more debate. Ec differed entirely from the bill. It was very email, and did not look much, but he doubted if a bill carrying greater consequences hi ita bosom had been passed for some time. It was all very well to tivy that it was in justice to the Maoris; but they should look to justice to the Europeans, and should iii quire how far it would close the North Island to rertlemeut. .Such legislation had in part produced wholesale corruption, and would do so again. Such legislation will not prevent illicit dealing with native land on the part of purchasers, who could employ agents, and who would not mind either tine or imprisonment, Keferring to pre-emptive right, the Maoris said itmeantthat Government would be compelled to purchase any land offered to them by the native?, and Government interpreted it aa meaning only that the natives would be compelled to sell to Government. He objected to the bill because it would again plunge the Government into the vortex of land purchasing. (Mr Bryce: "I don't admit that.") That seemed to him one of the objects of ttaebill. He wightbeniistaken, but he did not think the Maoris understood what was meant by pre-emption, After detailing the present system of private purchase of native land, he asked what they were going to replace it with, and deprecated any legislation which tended to make the M&ofis not self-reliant. He found fault with the ap» pointment o: a Trust Commissioner, saying that to possess the friendship of one of tlitsa oilicials would do an important part in the purchase of native land. He thought the power proposed to be given to the Native Minister by the bill should not be given to one nun, as it would lead to iniluencc being usrjd to oust the holder of such great power. Be* ferring to complaints made apainst land* purchase officers, be said that thoser acquaiuted with native- land purchase! knew that Government agents had more frequently be?n flagrantly wrong than agents for private purchases. He bad opposed' the Land Company's Bill in the interest of his constituents, but he believed if there were a dozen such companies the interests of the native* would be well looked after, If the natives could be organised into companies and compelled to sell land aa corporate bodies,it wonld work well. The great difficulty in the way of this was the payment of the 10 per cent, land dnty, which at once compelled them to apply to Jturopeana for assistance. It was because this bill did not make the natives Eelf-reliant, because it sought powers for tbe Native Office, that would be corrupting their tendency, tbat he would oppose it. Mr Sutton wonld support the bill, and Mr Shaw wonld vote for the second reading, although he had several serious objections to make subsequently. The bill, if passed in its present form, would^ mean absolute ruin to honest dealers in~native lands. He knew of persons who had advanced tens of thousands on lav Js.and they could not possibly obtain all thceiauatures before the time mentioned by Air Bryce as the probable date of the bill becoming law. He did not object to the clause excluding lawyers, and thought the general feeling of the profession was that they should not ] push themselves into the Land Court if natives objected. After the supper adjournment, Colonel Trimble Bpoke in favour of the bill, and Messrs J. McKbnzie, Stewabd, and McDonald spoke against it. Mr Stevbhs gave notice to move an additional clause empowering the Trust Commissioners to make inquiry into any transaction, and, should they be satisfied as to the bonajides of the intending purchases to preserve existing equitable rights At 12.45 Mr Hubsthouse moved the,; adjournment of the debate, and the House adjourned,