IRELAND AND HOME RULE

New Zealand Tablet, 25 May 1911, Page 951

IRELAND AND HOME RULE

THE WORKING OF AN IRISH PARLIAMENT SOBER WORK AND PRACTICAL DISCUSSION Interviewed by Mr. W. R. Holt, for the Daily Mail, Mr. John Redmond said 'I believe the working of an Irish Parliament would be a great surprise to the people of. this country. It would be very unlike what they anticipate. There would be a great deal of sober business and very few fireworks. In a sense there would be less politics than at present. Every election in Ireland is now fought upon a question of high and almost abstract politics. Whether Ireland shall govern herself or whether she shall be governed by Great Britain. Even county and municipal elections turn often upon that. Once you get Home Rule that question disappears. Men will divide according to their respective ideas, not as to whether Ireland shall govern herself, but as to how she shall govern herself. The questions arising will be concrete, such as: Shall the railways of the country be nationalised, or shall they not ? How much money can profitably be spent on drainage? And how best shall our educational systems'be brought up to date? These are matters upon which the Irish nation would be divided. But the division would not coincide by any means with the present lines of cleavage. No doubt the first Parliament elected in Ireland would be elected more or less on the present lines. People would vote according to their previous associations. This applies both to the North and to the South. But in the North and South alike there are very strong political elements which at present have little Parliamentary representation. "Belfast and the district around it are far more Radical than any other part of Ireland; yet the Radicalism of the industrial North does not make itself adequately felt in the present House of Commons any more than the elements of Conservatism present in the South and West.' - Number of Members. 'What do you suggest should be the size of the proposed Irish Parliament?' ' This is quite an open question, but I would like to see the present —namely, 103 —increased, and in that increase a chance would be found for bringing in the new elements without sacrificing old claims. Under present conditions no business man and no professional man can represent an. Irish constituency and do his Parliamentary work efficiently without injuring his business or his profession. That, of course, is for mere geographical reasons: the time occupied in travelling from Ireland to London and the isolation of one from the other. Yet everybody mi Ireland would like to see "more business men in our representation, and we should undoubtedly get them. We should get them from Dublin, we should get them from all the big towns: for Cork is little more than four hours distant from Dublin, and Belfast less than three hours; and I do

not suppose our Irish sessions would be so long as th« -sessions in Englandcertainly not so long as they have been of late. Proportional representation has been suggested in a remarkable letter from Lord Courtney. The end which Lord Courtney desires I desire and we all desire. We want a thorough representation of all the elements of Irish life. Whether the machinery he suggests is the best way to attain this end I am doubtful; but if I were sure that proportional representation were the best means of securing an adequate political influence for the Unionist minority in the South and West I should support it. ■.. _— .....,."'■_ :: ,f;;;•; Work of the Country. '-.'.^.[^'r ' You may take it from me that the Irish people ardently desire to see the. Irish gentry—l use. an oldfashioned word, for we are an old-fashioned devoting themselves to the service of the country. Let me give you a proof. In the eighties no landlord fought more vehemently against the Land League than Mr. Kavanagh, of Borris. He was in a sense the leader of the landlords and the ablest man amongst them the representative-of one of the great old Irish families and a Protestant. His son inherited his interest in politics, and began life, naturally, as a Unionist. He contested a. seat as a Unionist. Gradually he found himself losing sympathy with a policy which involved hostility and distrust towards the mass of his own people. He let his opinions become known, and almost immediately the people of County Carlow made him chairman of their county council. They afterwards sent him to the House of Commons as a member of our party. Mr. Kavanagh was as good a Home Ruler as I am. He agreed with us entirely on the land question, but he had Conservative and Protectionist leanings. He left us at the end of the 1906 Parliament simply and solely because he was afraid that the exigencies of our party might force him to vote against his views oh the Budget. Now, men like Mr. Kavanagh—able men, educated men, with a large stake in the country, would undoubtedly be chosen to represent Irish constituencies, and the question of religio* would never arise. What has kept them out of public life hitherto has been not their religion but their opposition to the principle of Home Rule. Once an Irish Parliament is established that difference disappears, and I am certain that men of Mr. Kavanagh's type would be.as welcome in the Irish Parliament as he was in the Irish Party. There are a great many men of this type who, unlike him, are divided from us for the present, and, as I believe, only for the present, by acute political differences, but who are still held to Ireland by a strong attachment to the country and to the people. I should hope that Home Rulo would greatly increase the attractiveness of life in Ireland for men of that type. Think, for instance, what it would mean for Dublin. Since the Union Dublin has almost sunk into the position of a provincial town. Once it was a real metropolis, a real centre of national life, such as are the minor capitals within the German Empire. ; . It has been a great part of the strength of the German Empire that it has decentralised the social life of the country, so that instead of having, as in these islands, one overgrown capital and a number of provincial towns, they have several highly organised centres. Generally speaking, the urban life and interests of Ireland are insufficiently developed, and are not adequately represented in Parliament. That is one of the evils which, I hope, we might cure under Home Rule, and that is an object which would have to be borne in mind in any scheme of redistribution or increased representation. " ...""""/' State Railways. • .;.;.■. Another paramount object for any Irish Parliament would be the development of the industrial centres of the country. Already Irishmen of all parties are working together for this end, and with very considerable success. We should hope that a native Parliament would find means to give a new impetus and a new power to that industrial revival. Such a question as the nationalisation of the railways would naturally be considered as a possible means towards this end. I do not say that Ireland would be united in favor of such a project; but cleavage of opinion would not follow the existing party lines and the moment such questions were raised they would affect the return . of members to the Parliament. . Irish constituencies would be anxious to secure, so far as they could, the services of business men, and especially captains of industry, to assist in the settlement of such problems. That could not fail to produce a considerable effect upon the personnel of the Irish Parliament sooner or later, and I should say sooner rather than later.' ' ' ' Would payment of members be approved as part of the scheme?' ' I think we should all be in favor of payment of members out of the State funds, but that is a question which the Irish Parliament should be left to settle for itself.' {\ ' What exactly would be the limits of power of the Irish Parliament?' - 'I have stated it many times before; but, if 'you wish, I shall do so again. The Irish Parliament would be charged with the management of purely Irish affairsland, education, local government, transit, labor, industries, taxation for local purposes, law and justice, police, etc. —leaving to the Imperial Parliament the management of all Imperial affairs —Army, Navy, foreign relations, Customs, Imperial taxation, and matters pertaining to

the Crown and the colonies. The Imperial Parliament would also retain an overriding and supreme authority over the new Irish Legislature, such as it possesses to-day over the colonial Parliaments.' . Control of Police. ' You mention the police. Would you propose that the Royal Irish Constabulary should be continued in its present form?' 'I should say certainly not; but you will understand that all members of the force have the right to a pension, and that a complete alteration of the character of the force, which is semi-military, could not be effected at once. This is a matter presenting some difficulties. But they are difficulties which I hold to be essentially of a temporary character. The police force which Ireland should control would be in character such a police as you have here in England. It should be about a third of the present force in number and entail about a third of the present cost. As to financial questions, I prefer at this stage to make no statement beyond this: The suggestion that a financial settlement just to both countries > is a really serious difficulty in one way is, in my opinion, totally untrue. On the contrary, I am convinced that it will be found when the matter is investigated that the argument founded on finance is the strongest of all # in favor of Home Rule, and from the British standpoint quite as much as from the Irish.' ' You mention the overriding authority which the Imperial Parliament would retain. Would that affect the fears that Protestants will never receive just treatment from a Nationalist Parliament?'. ' As to Protestants receiving fair play, the entire history of Ireland indicates that" they will. But beyond that I would gladly accept any safeguards which were consistent with ordinary democratic principles. _ As to the apprehensions which one hears expressed in these matters, I honestly believe that twelve months' experience of Home Rule will lay such bogeys for ever. There is no reality behind them—they are merely stage properties which may terrify ignorant people, just as a hollow turnip with a candle in it terrifies a child. While the question is open it pays politicians to exploit these terrors;_ but there is a very wise saying in a little pamphlet written by an old colleague of mine, the late Alfred Webb, a Quaker, one of the sincerest Nationalists and best men that I ever knew. Let me quote it to you: " So long as the centre of power lies in a people, parties and interests learn to accommodate themselves to each other. Otherwise they seek to gain their ends not by mutual agreement and accommodation, but by working oil the feelings, the fears, and the prejudices of those among whom is the centre of power." ' That second sentence describes exactly what is going on in Great Britain and Ireland to-day. The first sentence prophesies accurately what will come to pass when the centre of power in Irish matters lies in the Irish people themselves.'