PARLIAMENTARY JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION.

New Zealand Tablet, Volume XI, Issue 36, 4 January 1884, Page 23

PARLIAMENTARY JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION.

# Tuesday, 21st August, 1883. Right Rev. Da. Luck, examined. t 602. Hon. The Chaiemak (after the Clerk had read a petition, signed by Roman Catholics, praying for equity and justice in the matter of education) : In all there are 65 petitions to the same purport as this which you have just beard read, and they are signed by 10 568 persons. There is also a petition from the Synod of Christchurch signed by the Primate of New. Zealand, the Bishop of Christchurch. I wish to ask you a few questions with regard to the subject of these petitions, and you can answer them as briefly as you like. Should there be any question which you would rather not answer, you are of course, at liberty not to do so. Ido not anticipate there will be any such questions. What is your recognised position in the Roman Catholic Church ? — Bishop of Auckland. 603. What is the extent of your diocese?— My diocese is commensurate with the Province of Auckland, 604. Give an idea of the extent in miles ?— I am only a recent arrival in New Zealand, and therefore I am not very well np in the geography of the Colony at present. The diocese, however, extends over the Province of Auckland. 605. What is the number of Roman Catholics in your diocese 1— About 17,000. 606. What is the number of children of both sexes (educated in the Catholic schools within your diocese ?— About 1,380. as far as i" can ascertain. ' 607. What is the proportion of Boman Catholics to the whole pepulation of Christians in New Zealand ?— I am informed that it is one-seventh ; but, as far as the population of Auckland is concerned it is about one-sixth. ' 608. How many State schools are there in your diocese ?— I am not able to inform you at the moment, but it is a thing that can be easily ascertained. It is, of course, the number of State schools there are in the Province of Auckland. 609. There are a considerable number?— Yes. 610. How many Roman Cafholic schools have you solely maintained in your diocese ?— Thirteen. 611. Are these schools attended by others than Roman Catholic children; if so, please state the probable percentage ?— There is a small percentage, I believe, in every school that are not Roman Catholics : but, as far as I can judge myself, it would be about ten per cent. 612. Do yon find that the parents of other Christian denominations have any objection to send their children to the schools ?—Tnose who send their children have, of course, no objection whatever ; but, no doubt, there would be a great many who would have a very decided objection. 613. Do these Catholic schools receive any endowments or assistance from the Government of the Colon tr : if 8 0, state the amount received ?— -None of the thirteen I have referred to receive anything at all ; but there are tw.> schools that have received assistance— one of them the industrial school for girls at Ponsonby— thatrreoeives a capitation grant. 614. Are these Catholic schools then I— The one I have mentioned is a Catholic industrial school. 615. And is this school kept by the Roman Catholics ?— lt is managed entirely by the Roman Catholics. But the capitation crant, I may add, is quite insufficient ; it is only £10 per head. T 6 1?« How are the funds P rovid ed for maintaining these schools? —In different manner, according to the system followed in the distnct. They come from the voluntary contributions of the faithful from the school pence of the children, and from the subsidies of the Roman Catholic clergy. 617. Do you think the Roman Catholics have a grievance through the Government not affording assistance to their schools?— lt is so self- evident that I need only reply that the grievance is a very great one indeed. J 618. Do the parents of the children cheerfully subscribe towards maintaining the schools, and what is the annual charge to each pupil ?— As regards the first portion of the question, I may say there are a certain number who do not contribute anything afall ; they are too poor, and are taken in gratis. But, speaking ' of 'the Catholic body as a whole, it does cheerfully contribute, though grudgingly at the same time— that is to say, they protest against the injustice of the legislation, but, rather than sacrifice the Catholic education of their children, they do so. , j? 19 ' TO* 6 * is , the amount charged for each pupil ?— That, again, is i relative. The charge varies. As I have said already, some are received gratis. A certain number in some of the schools pay as much as Is. per week. Others, again— in the boarding-schools, for instance— pay so much per annum. At Ponsonb* I think it is £20 or £30 per annum, but at the present moment "i forget the exact amount. 620. Then, those parents of children who are are able to do so pay for the edncation of iheir children ? Yes. 621. Have the Roman Catholics any conscientious objection t) avail themselves o£ the State system of education, and do yoa believe the Catholic parents would consent to send their children to the State schools rather than forego their education ? — That, again, is a double question. As regards the first part, we have a very decided conscientieus objection. It is not for me to address the Committee at length m support of that objection, but if you wish to know the grounds of our objection I will be very happy to state them. As regards the second part of the query, we hold that secular instruction is a necessary part of education, and Catholic parents, who have not the opportunity of procuring Catholic education, would prefer to take what they get, and supplement the secular instruction as well as they can. But it is a very decided grievance. 622. As Bishop of the Diocese of Auckland, are you opposed to those children receiving education at the State schools ?-sflCost decjdedly.

623. I think you have already stated that there are some children who do attend the State schools ?— You must bear in mind that Catholic education in Auckland is behind the day, owing to the circumstance that the Catholic diocese has been left so long without a bishop. The Catholic population is a poor population ; and lam in a position to show by figures that, notwithstanding this circumstance, what we have done speaks well for the zeal and conscientious sense of duty of the Catholics of the diocese. 624. Do you and your priests attend your schools regularly periodically?— Certainly. 625. How often in a week ?— There is no fixed time. In some of the schools the priest is in the school every day. But as many of our schools are conducted by the Sisters of Mercy theie is less necessity for the personal supervision of the priest than there would be in schools differently conducted. In some of the schools the pnest attends only once a week. 626. Then, there is absolutely daily religious instruction in some of the schools ?— Yes ; in all of them. 627. Do you find that the Roman Catholic children have a better knowledge— this question may appear a little invidious, I admit,— of Scnpture than children of other denominations ? Probably you are not able to answer the question ?— I think I am in a position to make an aaswer from my own point of view. I say that since for good reasons we do not constitute the Bible as a text-book of religious instruction, so neither do we regard Scripture history as a standard as to whether a child is well instructed in'iisj religion. However, I may safely say that our Catholic children are better instructed in religion than the children attending State schools, and better informed as regards the matter and substance of Holy Scripture ; but as to whether they are better up in chapter and verse, I am not able to state. 628. In other branches are they quite up to the current standard? —Quite so, I believe. I have assisted personally at the examinations at these schools, and I have been greatly astonished with the results. I think they compare very favourably indeed with the schools in England. I have not assisted at any of the Government school exanimations; but, from what I have heard, I am inclined to think that the secular instruction in Catholic schools is quite up to the standard of the Government schools, if not above it. 629. Do you find that any of the boys stand for honours in the New Zealand University ;if so, with what success ?— Not many. As to the success, I may mention that one boy in the Onehunga school was first in the class. But. to be candid, our boys' schools are much weaker than the girls' schools. It is only now that I have taken steps to procure more efficient roasters that I hope we shall be able to do a great deal more for our boys' schools. At Onehunga and the Thames, however, the schools are efficient ; but those in Auckland I do not feel proud of. 630. Then, your Church is not opposed to the boys going in for University honours ?— Certainly not. 631. Have you any objection to Roman Catholic schools being under Government inspection? — On the contrary, I advocate Government inspection ; it promotes a healthy competition. 632. Who performs the inspection of Catholic schools, and to whom do they report ?— There are annual examinations at the schools, which are conducted before the public, and at which the clergy always assist. I assist myself, and therefore I am able to form a judgment of the results from what I see. In the case of other reports, which do not come under my own personal experience, the reports of the examinations reach me at least indirectly, if not in a formal manner. 633. From what source do you receive your schoolteachers, and what standard of efficiency do you expect before appointing them ? The principal source from which we get our schoolteachers in Auckland is from the Sisters of Mercy— ladies who especially dedicate their lives to the work of education ; and, as I have said, 1 am oh the point of procuring the services of some teaching Brothers, who make it the object of their lives to educate the young. I have not had occasion yet to accept the services of lay teachers. 634. Do you find any teachers in the State schools of the Roman Catholic faith ? — I believe that there are some, but it is not a matter which comes under my knowledge in any particular way. 635. Do yon appiove of the secular system of State education ; if so, state your reasons? — In answer to the first part of the question, I have a most decided objection to it. My reasons I might expatiate upon at very great length. Education affects the whole man, his moral and intellectual being, and the secular system omits entirely the moral training, which, after all, is the most necessary element to enable a man to go through life as he ought. 636. Then, you are not opposed to the reading of the Bible in State schools ? — I am most pleased that it should be read in the schools under a conscience-clause, and for the denominational religious instruction of such as make the Scriptures their text-bock, but not for Catholic Children, whose religion is taught them in their catechism. 637. Are you opposed to the Bible being read by laymen ?— To you mean by laymen in schools or laymen generally. 638. Laymen in schools ? — There is no objection to laymen reading the Holy Scriptures for their own benefit;, but if by reading the Holy Scriptures you mean imparting religious instruction, we always require that the person who imparts it should be competent for the purpose ; and, as a rule, laymen are not competent to undertake this duty without the concurrence of the priest. 639. Do you consider that secular education has a tendency to infidelity and crime ?— Alas ! it has a very decided tendency that way, and that is the reason why the Catholic clergy make such a decided stand against it. We need not go far— or rather we need go far, because we are at the antipodes — to see the result of secular education in Europe. 640. Then, you do not believe that the religious instruction of children should be left to parents solely ? — Certainly not because the parents are not constituted teachers of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 641. And do you think that among the working-classe9 the parents have the necessary time?— Not only very frequently they

have not the time, but very frequently also they are not models of Christian virtue. 642. Then, do you approve of denominational education ; if so, on what grounds ? — Certainly I do, on the grounds that it is the only fair system. If the State wishes to encourage the secular instruction of its citizens, it has certainly a right arid a duty to respect their conscientious convictions, and, as there is no other system in which that is capable of being done, the denominational system has undoubtedly my earnest and best wishes. 643. Is there any attempt made to influence the religious opinions of other denominations in the Catholic schools, and have you known of any converts having been made to the Roman Catholic faith ?—? — There is no effort made whatever to induce the Protestants to attend our schools. They are never expected to come, nor do they come, to the religious instruction. I have never known of any Protestant child becoming a Catholic, but there are instances where, in after life, they have joined the Church. 644. Willjou please state the Roman Catholic system of education, its machinery, and ramifications; explain its workings, and give all the details possible of the efficiency and cost? — How many •hours will you^give me 1 A question of this sort cannot be answered Tto do it justice in the space of a few minutes. 645. What alterations in the State system of education, would you suggest to remove the alleged grievances of Roman Catholics without inflicting injustice to other denominations ? — There we enter upon a rather large field. In the first-place, our only claim is fairplay and equity. In order that that should be accomplished, there would no doubt have to be very great changes indeed, because we should require to have a fair share of public 'money, as well as a share of school endowments, and assistance in the maintenance of normal schools. In a word, we should be on a footing of equality with our fellow-colonists. If I may make a suggestion, I would propose that as a first instalment of justice there should be some consideration shown to the Catholics for this reason : the children whom we educate in our schools represent a positive saving to the State. It is reckoned that every child costs the State £4 per bead. We have 6,000 children or thereabouts in the Colony that are being brought up in the Catholic schools at a cost free to the State, and I think, therefore, we should get that amount which is saved to the State, and which would represent a grant of, say, £24,000. If we tarn these children out of our schools, and on to the State, the State will be called upon at once to provide for those children, to build schools and provide for their education generally. The £24,000 would, of course, be exclusive of the amount necesary for the erection of new schools. We have got our own buildings : we have raised them at onr own expense. Although the Diocese of Auckland is behind the rest of the Colony on account of the peculiar circumstances in which we have been placed, still I find we have expended a sum of £28.000 in the establishment of schools, not including maintenance. The amount has been spent in sites, buildings, and school furniture and ' fittings. I might add that this £28,000 does not include the two schools for which we have had Government aid. 646. May I ask whether you have any debt on your schools 1 — Yes ; there are debts. 647. What amount ? — That is a matter that I have not gone into, but it is relatively small — I should say £2,000 or £3,000. 648. Do you think that the cost of maintaining the schools is fully commensurate with the advantages obtained ? — Most decidedly so ; so much so that if we could only have a greater number of schools I feel confident that the advantages to be obtained by the Colony at large — the social body of the Colony — would be very groat indeed. We see the effects of the want of proper education at the present day. " Larrikinism," and the rtst of it, proceed from the want of education. 649. What guarantee can the State have that these schools are famished with the necessary educational material- — this is, masters and so on I—Their1 — Their guarantee would exist in the inspection, of the schools by the State. I would add that the efficiency of a school arises more from results than fittings. 650. As a recent arrival from England, are you conversant with the system of State schools in England ? — Yes ; it is a system which perhaps is a shade fairer than the system which exists here, but is certainly far from being just. The State system in England enjoys, a grant from the Privy Council, and from the taxation of the public, whereas the Catholic schools enjoy only capitation grants from the Privy Council, but are excluded entirely from the rates which are raised for the Board schools. Although they have certainly outstepped the reasons and motives for which they were originally founded, yet, with the enormous wealth they have at their command, they un- . questionably tend to press out all competition. 651. Then, do you think that the English system would meet the views of the petitioners ?— No ;it would be a shade better, a step higher, but certainly would not be right or fair. 652. [First clause in Synod's petition read.] Do you believe in that ?— Entirely. 653. [Second clause read.) Do you believe in that clause? — Yes ; we are quite at one there. ± 654. [Third clause read.] Do you believe in that ? — No ; not Entirely. I join issue with that, because we do not look at the Committees as being the parties to whom the light of teaching religion belongs, and therefore the appointment of teachers ought to depend upon the Bishops and priests of the Church. But I agree very nearly with all that has been read. 655. Hon. Me. Dick : You slate that the want of religious education is productive of crime. Do you state that from statistics? — No ; I have not gone into the matter fully. But it is the conviction which has gradually and surely grown up in my mind. 656. By religious instruction do you mean any sort of religious instruction I—Of1 — Of course, I am not going to preach a sermon to the Committee. Wo always uphold the rights of other denominations to impart their own kind of religious instruction. 657. And their instruction will hinder crime as well as the Catholic instruction I— Certainly.

658. Then, you have not compared the proportion of crime in France and Italy, or France and Ireland ?— Not numerically ; but we must neither look at France nor at Italy as model Catholic countries. It is a very Bad sight indeed. But I think we might look at Ireland— l do not speak of it in connection with the political troubles in which that country has "been involved— but certainly the, moral standard of virtue in Ireland is far higher than in many other European countries. 659. But France does not give religious instruction ?— lt gives something worse than what our Colony gives. It gives a positively atheistic education. Ours at any rate is negative. In France it is positively atheistic. 660. From statistics, do you suppose that there is more crime in France than in Italy, where there isa religious education ? — I am afraid we cannot look upon Italy now as a specimen of a Catholic country. Certainly, since political changes have been introduced into Italy, crimes have been vastly increased, and, if we compare Italy of today with Italy of fifty years ago, the statistics of crime will be far greater. This is only plain common sense. If children are not taught to do themselves and their passions violence, they follow the natural inclinations of their fallen nature, and give way to crime. The great advantage that the denominational system has over the secular is that it maintains th? principle of authority — the principle that there is a moral standard to which it is our duty to conform ourselves. In the secular system this is ignored or not brought forward prominently, and the consequence is that the visible and tangible has all its own way, and the principles of Christianity are forgotten and ignored, and at la&t despised. 661. Then, does not very much depend on the character of a religious teaching that is given? — Certainly ; it depends in a great measure, but not entirely ; because, of course, the Catholic Church is one that maintains the strictest codes of morality, and the English Church, the Wesley ans, and Presbyterians have all retained a great deal of what the Catholic Church teaches, and therefore it is all in the right direction. 662. Hon. Mb Reynolds: Do I understand that you would grant the same privileges to every other denomination as to Roman Catholics ? — Yes ; fair-play. 663. That is, a fair contribution from the public fuuds ?— Yes. The Catholic Church does not claim that all the colonists should be brought up to be Catholics ; it only speaks for itself. It claims that amount of justice which it also claims for everybody else. 664. Mb. De Lautotjb : You told the Chairman that the cost of the buildings in Auckland was £28,000 ?— Yes ; about that sum. 665. But we have no indication yet as to what is the cost of maintaining these schools? — I am 6orry lam not able to give the precise figures. I may safely say, however, that the cost comes up to about £2,400 per annum, which, of course, represents a considerably smaller outlay than for the State schools, having, the same number of children. * 666. I think you stated that your schools were supported by the school-pence of the children and subsidies given by the clergy I—Yes1 — Yes : and also, in the first place, the contributions given by the parents— the Catholic body at large. 667. Where do the subsidies given by the clergy come from ?—? — They come ultimately from the generosity or charity of their respective congregations. 668. Then, really, these also come from the Catholic laity?— Yes. There are also certain cases — as in my case-r-in which a bishop gets subsidies outside the Colony altogether, such as from Europe. These also help to do the work. 669. Regarding the £2,400. the fees given help to pay that sum ?— Yes. 670. I understand you to say that was the cost of maintaining the schools each year ? — Yes. 671. Hon. Mb. Reynolds : Without fees ?— lncluding the fees. The fees fall far short. 672. Mb. De Lautoub : I do not think we have got very clearly yet what are the grounds of the Catholic laity's conscientious objection to the State system. You thought we were asking you to go at some length into the question? — The grounds are these : that children have to be brought up as Christians end as citizens, and we contend that when the child is educated, only with a certain amount of secular instruction bo is only partially educated, and to be properly educated, he must be provided with a moral training, by which he learns his duties to his fellow-creatures. And, as it is important, therefore, that children should be educated both in their intellectual and moral being, we have a most decided objection to a system which excludes the moral part of their being, and looks simply and solely to the intellectual portion. 673. Then, you consider a moral and religious training synonymous I—ln1 — In that sense, Yes. 674. Do you mind telling us whether your clergy directly teach that the parents should keep their children from the State schools? — Where we have schools which are competent and efficient, thtn we should certainly have no doubt about pressing upon the Catholic parents the necessity of fulfilling the first duty of a parent, which is to educate their children as they ought to be educated : and clearly they lie under the obligation of sending them to those schools where alone they can be educated properly. 675. Hon. Mb. Menzies : Whom do you consider to be tho. proper authorities to give this religious or moral instruction in schools ?—ln? — In the first place, it is the first duty of the parents t< . bring up their children in their tenderest years with the fiiot principles of religion. Then, as the children get more fully developed it happens very often that a good Christian home is also the best place for a truly moral aid religious training ; but in all cases it has to be supplemented by the teaching body of the Church, because it is the special duty of the bishops and priests of the Church to fulfil the precept of our Lord to go and teach all things that He commanded, them.