PARLIAMENTARY JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION.

New Zealand Tablet, Volume XI, Issue 33, 14 December 1883, Page 23

PARLIAMENTARY JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION.

- fn-i':oi¥P? DA ' Y 'i 6th Augwst, 1883. Bishop Moban examined— Continued.') 337. Didjnouliear^th'ese other petitions-read ? — I did. 338. Were those petitioners generally satisfied ?— Apparently not. 339. Do" they "represent as large a denomination asyou do I—'ibe1 — 'ibe answer is this : they have not erected their own schools. We have, and by doing so show we are in earnest, and express and emphasize oar dissatisfaction ; and, as long as the others cannot do something similar, I do not think there is much in the expression of their dissatisfaction. 340. You do nqt think they are very much in earnest I—No.1 — No. 341. Mr. Febotts-: What proportion of children of school-age have you in your diocese ?— We have not many able to go to school who do not go. to oar schools. 342. What is the proportion of Catholics to Protestants and others in your diocese '?— One in nine, as far as I can make ont. 343. Are you' aware of the number of children on the publicschool rolls? — The average 'attendance was 16,000 three or four years <a«o. -. ' ' 344. The number on^the school rolls, not the average attenfigface ? — I think twenty-two or twenty -three thousand' children as "vrell as I remember. 345. There are 26,000. If the proportion* is one in nine there mu6t be of necessity a very considerable number of children attending Government schools?— Not necessarily, for the simple reason that many v people in my diocese are unmarried, and have no families ; there are great numbers of miners and servant-girls who are not married; consequently we have not our due proportion of children in our population. 346. You would not ba satisfied, I understand, with the establishment. oL_Catholic schools in the larger centres ? — No; I would not. I want Catholic schools everywhere I could have them. 347. Yon would give the same right to all other denominations you claim for yours ? — Certainly. 348. Have you considered the question of additional expense that would be entailed on the Colony by the division of the schools ? Even as far as we are concerned I do not think there would be necessarily additional expense. 349. There would be no additional expense in cutting up many of your schools in the larger and even in ihe smaller centres?— Not necessarily, because Parliament could very easily readjust its expenditure to the circumstances. 350. Do' you not hold that education is a protection against crime ?— To a small extent Statistics prove that as secular education extends criireof a certain class and order extends. 351. "But you still think to some extent it prevents crime ?— lt may do so. 352. And especially such education as you would give would prevent it ?— -I hope so. 353. Even after all is done there must be a considerable number of Catholic children attending the Government schools in very sparsely-peopled districts?— l do not think there is a considerable number. 354. We have petitions before us in favour of Bible-reading in schools. Supposing this power were granted to the School Committees, and was exercised in the schools which are in very sparselysettled districts, would you have any objections to the Catholic children attending tnose schools ?— Certainly. 355. Then, they would object to the State system in as far as it admitted Bible-reading in schools. Could you not induce them to attend those schools, however few they might be ? — That is altogether an exceptional case, and would have to be treated exceptionally. 356. There area number of petitions from your diocese before both Houses of Parliament. Who signed those petitions? Were they signed by adults, people over the age of twenty-one yeais ?— As a rule, so far as I know, they were. We advised that the petitions should be signed by men, and men only, over twenty-one years of age. There are some exceptions, lam aware, but not many. 357. In the centre of Dunedin, have some of the petitions been signed by boys of fourteen or fifteen ?•— There may have been a few, there must be very few. The petitions were {signed by men, but many men did not get an opportunity of signing. If they had, there would have been a great many more signatures . 358. Hon. Mb. Babnicoat : I understood you to say that the State system of education in New Zealand was always unsatisfactory to the Catholic body ?— l'did not say that. I say the present system is unsatisfactory. 359. Can you say whether in every instance the late provincial syßtem of education was unsatisfactory ?— To us it was. — f- 360. In every instance?— ln Ctago and Southland it was from - the first. 361. Can you say how far the system provided in Nelson was satisfactory to the Catholic body I— lt was partially satisfactory, because an effort was made to do them justice, but it was not full because they did not get equal treatment with other denomination's. 362. The body appointed its own Committee : that would be satisfactory of course ; and the separating body received the same sum per head for the children actually taught as was found to be the cost of educating the rest in the same school district ?— We have no objection to that whatever. 363. Then, the separating school was open to all children without fee ?— Well, of course, we have no abjection to that either ; not the slightest. 364. It was subject to the inspection of the Government Inspector as regards secular things, and had to provide secular education to his satisfaction ?— I consider that very desirable. 365. And the religious instruction was given to the satisfaction oi the promoters of the school, without any interference from the Inapector ; but religious instruction had to be given at prearranged

hou^B, so that parents of children should be able to withdraw their children ?--I have no objection to that. I would accept that. dob. ihose are the promiuent features of the system. I understood you to express assent to them except as regards the first-that the schools should first be erected at the cost of the separating body ? — Yes. Why should not the. State erect schools for our children, when iterects them for other people's children, when I say there wouia be admission into the school for everyone, and there would be no interference with the religion of those who were not Catholics ? Of coarse, I consent to that. I think.it is perfectly just— not only politic, but just. I think it woiud be an obligation on the promoters and governors of the school not to attempt to interfere with the consciences of other people. 367. Do you think it right that religious instruction should begin at prearranged hours ?— Yes ;we do that ourselves. That is our practice. 368. Me. Babbon : 1 understood you to say that no attempt naa been made to influence the religious opinions of children of other denominations at Catholic schools ?— Yes. 369 Are you aware whether any attempt ias been made to influence the religious opinions of children attending the Statj schools ? — 1 am aware that such has been the case. 370. Is it in the lesson-books, or simply through the teachers 7— It is done in a variety of ways. It is very hard to know what boska j are used m the Government schools. There is a great variety of books, and some of the books are very frequently tshanged in the schools, which is a very great evil, and a cause of expense to the parents. I believe, generally speaking, now there are what are called the Koyal Readers. I l>ave looked over them carefully, and have not yet discovered anything to which I could positively object. With regard to the histories used in the schools there are mauy things to" which I do object. With regard to what I complain of—interferences with the Catholics— there are some teachers so aenselessand bigoted that they cannot restrain themselves— cannot keep theml eS v Ca tholic conscience. There are some cases of that sort • and the whole tone of the school is entirely anti- Catholic. The teachers are all non- Catholics, and the pupils are non-Catholics : and very many are exceptionally bigoted, and are constantly insulting Catholics in their play-hours and when going to and from school. m 371. I understand you to mean that this is one of your strongest objections to the present system?— My strongest objection ia one of principle. I say that the secular system, on principle, is one that the Catholics cannot accept. 372. Even although it wag possible to remove the objections as to religious opinions?— l hold that the difficulties cannot be removed. The system is quite opposed to our principles. I sincerely believe there is a desire on the part of very many not to interfere with us : but I say that interference is inseparable from the system. It is impossible that the Catholics cannot but be offended and injured by the system, simply because of the sjsLem it is. 373. Your objection ia that no system of education is possible that is not founded on dogmatic teaching ?— I say no real system is possible without that. , 37 *- You 6ay that the Government is bound to do for Catholic children what they do for other children ; the Government are giving af ree, secular, andoompulsory system of education ?— The State is bound to do for Catholic children in the matter of education— are bound to give out of the public funds devoted for the- purpose of education a share to the Catholic children equal to the share given in proportion to other people's children. 375. But I understood you to state that the Government was bound to make the same provision-for CatboKc children- which it ia making for other children ?— What I mean is this : to give the Catholic schools the same allowance given to non-Catholic secular schools. 376. The State is providing one system, free, secular, and compulsory, free for Catholics as well as for other colonists ; therefore when you say the Government is bound to do for Catholic children what it is doing for other children, to that extent I presume you admit it is doing so?— Now, I affirm, the Government .is expending exclusively on the secular sect the entire revenues of the country devoted to educational purposes. The Legislature is doing that with its eyes open, because it knows that the Catholics are opposed to the system on principle, and will never accept it ; and the Catholic people are taxed as if they accepted it like other people. Therefore, I say it is unjust to expend on the secular sect the entire revenues contributed by the whole of the people of the country. # 377. Then the Education Act, as passed by the Legislature, is unjust to the Catholics because they are taxed to maintain a aystem ot education which they cannot use ?— Precisely ; that is my contention. J 378. You hold it is unjust to tax Catholics to maintain a system or education of which they do not approve?— Yes. 379. That system of education is provided by the Government of the country ; the Government of the country is elected by the people of the country. Is it not as unjust to tax Catholics to maintain a Government which is as unjust to them in the most essential particular— this of education— as it is to tax them to maintain a system of education which is unjust ?— Not equally unjust, but it is unjust. The Government has no right to perpetuate an injustice on any man in the community. 380. You say the education system is of first importance 2—Nothing of greater importance. 381. Therefore, when you say it is not equally unjust, you mean more unjust?— l mean nothing of the sort, because " more "is not " equally "; they are not synonymous terms. 382. Hon. Mb. Haet : You said you object to Collier's " History of England " as used in the State schools : What are the titles of the histories used in the Catholic schools— what are the names of the authors ?— There are a variety of histories used in Catholic schools. We use the Christian Brothers's books in some schools, and the " Catholic History of England" in otheis. The publisher'of theGrandwell series sent to me the mail before last copies of these books used by the Xondon School Board, and asked me to look over them and

give him an order if I approved of them. In a literary point of view they are excellent, and there is nothing objectionable in them at all that I could see. Therefore I sent an order for some, and shall adopt them ; but hitherto we have been obliged to nse what we could get. 383. Hon. Mb. P. A. Buckley : Your evidence has been directed altrgether, I think, towards what we call elementary schools. Have you erected any schools foi higher education in your diocese? — A good many. There is a college for boys and a high school for girls at Dunedin, and high schools at Oatnaru, Irvercargill, and Queenstown. No donations have been received from the State towards the erection and maintenance of the schools at Oainaru, Invercargili, and Queenßtown. We have received nothing from the State for any pnrpose ; they are all supported by the voluntary contributions of the people.. 384. Have you had any experience as to the result of teaching th« Bible in the public schools? — I only know one thing, and that is a statement made by Dr. Moorhouse. He stated, in his evidence given before tl»e Commission in Victoria, that one of the ablest and most zealous of his clergy went to a Government school to give Bible instruction. He had the class before him, and they read the Bible ; and then he told them to shut .their Bibles while he interrogated themon what they had read. They did so, and showered the bibles at his head. That is all I know of the result produced by the reading of the Bible in schools. 385. Mr. J. Buchanan : Are the same facilities as to railways to Catholic children attending their schools as are afforded to children attending State schools? — I think they are all on a footing of equality at present. 386. Have yon had any experience of the working of school Committees ? — No ; none except what I read in the public papers. 387. Then, you could not state whether they put in,force the compulsory clauses ? I have seen it stated in the newspapers that they passed a resolution to that effect in Dunedin ; but I am under the impression that it has been equivalent to a dead-letter, or almost bo, at allevents, but 1 could not speak positively. 388. A question was put to you with reference to the effect of education". ' I think you said you did not hold that education prevented crime?— -Yes, I did. I said I did not think it contributed to the preventionof -crime. 389. Are jqu _of opinion that it really changes rather than diminishes it ? — That is the result of my reading on the point. 390." And with reference to the question of Bible-Teading in schdbls, would, not your Church hold it as an infliction — a further disability—if that became compulsory, even if the conscience-clause were introduced I—l1 — I -would look upon a regulation to the effect that the Bible should be read by the teacher as a decided grievance. That would positively exclude every Catholic from teaching in the schools. 391. Hon. Mb. Acland: You were asked a question with regard to whether you objected to free, secular, acd compulsory education, would you agree on principle to the free and compulsory, without the secular I—As1 — As applied to Boman Catholics I would bave no objection to that whatever. 392. With regard to sparsely-populated districts, in cases where the number of children was not twenty-five, taking the proportion of one in seven, there would be some Roman Catholics in that district — in such cases would you think it desirable that the Catholic children should attend State schools or not attend them at all ? — I would prefer that, but that would be an exceptional case. 393. If the grants-in-aid were made on what you consider the principle of justice, would the Roman Catholics attempt to establish schools in those districts where, say, the Roman Catholic children did not exceed twelve I—That1 — That would depend on the circumstances of the case. If we found ourselves able to put a school there we would. 394. I have seen by the papers that insults nave been offered to yourself and other members of the Roman Catholic religion. Do you think the opposition is specially to Boman Catholics, or is it rather in favour of infidelity ?— 1 would not be able to answer that question as I do not know the motives of the people. 395. The opposition is, so far, shown mainly to Roman Catholics? — I cannot say as to the others. If you ask me what is to blame for it, I have no hesitation in saying that it is the unchristian tone of the system that is to blame for it. 396. Do you think that free, secular, and compulsory education has any tendency towards producing an increase of infidelity ? — I am decidely of that opinion. 397. Hon. Db. Mbnzies : I understood from what you said that you considered full justice to the Roman Catholics would be to give them the same amount of aid as other children in the Colony receive. In other words, that the funds should be equally distributed according to the number of children and the proficiency in the different schools. Then you went on further to say that, when the Government paid this subsidy, you 6hould have the power of dismissing the teachers ; would apply eqnally to tlie other denominations ?— We would interfere with the others in the least. 398. I understand the principle laid down to be that, while the Government pay for the education of the children, the denominations would have the control over the teachers — have the power of dismissing them ?~The power of dismissing them for moral delinquencies— the same as under the National Board in Ireland. 399. What I failed to observe was whether the function of the Government extended any further than the simple payment ?— The Government, of course, would have power over the masters if they were inefficient, and- did not properly discharge the duties of teaching the subjects for which they were paid. If the Government provided the funds to support the schools, of course they would have a very potent voice in the regulation of the schools. A Catholic school would cease to be a Catholic school if the authorities of the Church had no authority over it. 400. You consider it a matter of principle that you should have ft concurrent power with the Government as regards the dismissal of teachers?-— I think so. We should, of course, have teachers in the schools approved of by the authorities of the Church, otherwise they

would cease to be Catholic schools ; and the principles of the denominational system would be evaded altogether. What I would do as to Catholic schools is this : we would be prepared to satisfy the Government that they got value for their money. Beyond that the Catholic authorities would bave the control— that is, the control of the teachers. We would satisfy the Government that they got value for their money, and if we do not give them value for the money let us have no money. 401. In all other points the Government control would continue I—Yes1 — Yes ; as to the inspection of the school, the amount of secular knowledge of the pupils, and as to the fact whether the school gave value with regard to-the money paid. Bayond that, we would give the Government no control. 402. But on all secular matters they would have. What would be the effect of a school not giving value? — If the Inspector was not satisfied with the school as to efficiency the money could be withheld. 403. Mb. Fish : I presume I am correct in aesuming it to be your duty as Bishop, and also the duty of your clergy, to instruct the laity not to send their children to the State schools?— Yes; we do it. 404. Do you think if yourself and the clergy were to refrain from giving that instruction that the laity would send their children ? —I do not think they would. lam quite sure they would not as a body. 405. Eefering to Otago, I believe I am correct in saying that when Father Moreau had charge of your present diocese the Catholic children went to .the provincial schools /—I am not aware of anything of the sort, because I found, on coming to Dunedin, he had a Catholic school himself. 406. Are yon prepared to state that a large number of Catholic children did not then go to the provincial schools I—l1 — I do not know ; I was not there. 407. You say that, in endeavouring to interfere with education, the State is going beyond its functions? — No ; I did not say that. I said the State, in becoming the schoolmaster of the country, is going beyond its functions, 408. Supposing its^oild be proved, on going into figures, that the denominational system would be entirely beyond the means of the State, would you still advocate as yon are now doing ?— As the logicians say, nego supposition, 409. We may assume, then, that the teaching of the young, according to your belief, should be directly under the control of the various religious denominations? — I do. 410. Mb. DoDbON: Were the colleges and high schools included in the eighteen schools ?— Yes. 411. Mb. Babbon : 1 understood you to say that the introduction of Bible-reading into State schools would prevent the employment of Catholic teachers. There are Catholic teachers now in that employment ? — Very few. There are one or two pupil-teachers. There is one bonafide teacher, a female, that I know is now so employed. I think there is one pupil-teacher in Caversham. 412. If the Bible-reading were introduced into the State schools it would prevent the employment of Catholic teachers?— Yes. 413. Mb. J. Buchanan.: Have you heard that in tbe neighbouring colonies tbe system of Government education has developed pecular evils of its own, in Victoria and New South ?— Judging from what I have reard I bave come to that conclusion. Of course, I have no personal knowledge of it. 414. Are you aware that, at this present moment, one of the Parliaments is so engaged in amending the law in reference to offences against young females as to increase the punishment for teachers in public schools ?->There is a Bill before the House to that effect, I tbink. 415. In reference also to the employment of teachers by your denomination, have you not peculiar facilities for obtaining aid of that kind at a very reasonable rate, arising from the circumstances that it becomes a religious duty ? — Yes ; it is only on that account we are able to have schools in many places where, without that aid, we could not possibly have schools under present circumstances. 416. Those ladies and gentlemen are, of coarse, content with a very moderate maintenance ? — Content with a mere living. 417. In fact, the system is somewhat analogous, I think, to that which once prevailed in France, J when, the Freres Chretiens were the teachers I—Yes.1 — Yes. 418. Mb. Svvanson. : X the State pays the teachers of. these denominational schools, would not that be "practically giving State aid to religion 7— No ; because they are paid for teaching secular subjects. 419. Hon. the. Chalbman.: there anything further you would like" to say- to the Committee? — On the part of the Catholic body I have come here to ask the Parliament of the country to do what we conceive is an act of justice, and what we conceive as the Parliament of the country they are bound to do — that is, not to take from us money which they spend upon other people's children, but let our own children have the money we ourselves contribute for educational purposes. We think that is just, and that is our demand. The matter of education in accordance with our principles is one of life and death with us, and we consider we v are under an injustice and suffering a hardship in being obliged to pay our share of the taxation of the country without profiting by the expenditure on education ; and to be at the enormous expense of providing schools for our own children — a thing we are now bound to do — paying towards the free education of the other people's children. (Telegram ) " Dunedin, 24th August, 1883." '• Report of my evidence is correct. I authorize you to put my signature to it. Letter by post. BISHOP MoBAN, " Hon. Colonel Brett, Parliament House, Wellington." ♦