CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE POPE AND AN ITALIAN LAWYER.

New Zealand Tablet, Volume VII, Issue 343, 14 November 1879, Page 15

CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE POPE AND AN ITALIAN LAWYER.

The special Rome correspondent of the Pilot writes as follows :— The mind of the Holy Father with regard to the condition of the Papacy in Italy, has been clearly expressed by him, in an audience, or more properly speaking an interview, which he recently granted to the celebrated Turin Catholic lawyer, the Avvocato Cancino. After a few preliminary questions on the business which brought the advocate to Rome, the Pope said : " After so long a time selling out the Church property the material is not yet exhausted." The la-vyer replied that the Commission was now overhauling the matter again for the purpose of legacies and such like to churches and charities.

" You," said the Holy Father to the lawyer, " who know the legislation and jurisprudence of the State, can well judge whether or not the citizens, and above all the Catholic citizens of Italy, and their Head, have or bave not the necessary g uarantees ! ''

The reply to this was in the negative. The Pope then said : " You sec, then, that the state in which the Papacy is at present is thoroughly abnormal, and I will never grow weary in demanding for the re- vindication of the right of the Pontifical See that which is the right of tbe Catholics of Italy and of the whole world."

The advocate Cancino replied : " Holy Father, remembering that I am a lawyer, I will say that the right of Catholics cannot be alienated, nor can it form the object of transaction or compromise, oi ever be prescribed." To this the Sovereign Pontiff replied : " The Catholics have the right of being assured in their consciences, and they are not. The Church has the right to serve God in secure liberty. This is not liberty, and still less is it an assured liberty. That which has been done may be undone ; who to-day will guarantee us the morrow ? The revolution never says : Hold, enough ; but the revolution is not a method of Government. Societies are not governed by expedients but rather with Brinciples, and principles do not change. That which yesterday was just is so to-day and will be always. Now, nothing is more conservative of principles than the Papacy. How is it possible that Statesmen do not see the great social evil that continuous assaults against the Holy See bring to governments, and in a special manner to the Italian Government ? And if those who preside to-day over the public affairs of our country were intelligent statists, they should already be persuaded of this, that do one can preach the virtues better than the Pope — tbese virtues by which nations flourish." The lawyer then said : " The work of restoration has already been begun by tbe providential Encyclicals and Allocutions of Your Holiness, which have found an echo in London, Berlin, Petersburg, and Constantinople ; and even legal Italy itself has had to recognise that elevated and peaceful voices issued from the Vatican. (Taiani, in the session of 23rd January, 1879, in the Senate. Taiani was then keeper of the seals.) In reply the Pope eaid : " What I have begun I will continue to do. The Church is the greatest school of respect and of obedience that there is upon the earth. If the Church do not give its religious sanction to the civil laws, the citizens do not obey for conscience sake but only for fear. The Princes and the people have been beaten down by the fierce and tenebrous storm, and if they wish to fiucl again the port where they securely gather, it is necessary to give back to the Church that condition of sovereignty, liberty, and independence in which it may efficaciously unfold its beneficent influences for the beaefit of human society. Let there be given, then, to tbe Roman Church that whioh belongs to the Church ; let the right of Catholics be recognized, who are the majority of the nation, and then, all united, we will labour together to promote the well-being of Italy, which is our common country. But the sovereignty, the liberty, and the independence of the Apostolic See are conditions of the greatness of Ttaly ; whoever denies that which the Papacy has done for Italy, denies the most patent of truths. He who desires the good of Italy should seek out the tiuth ; seek it with study, calmness, and serenity, without prejudice, and, above all, without passion. Passion blinds and does not let us ever see where we are going. Will not those who govern press the friendly hand held out to them ? . . . Heaven and earth will pass away, but the promise made to the Church of God will not fail."

This very remarkable conversation which Leo XIII. held with the Advocate Cancino possesses a most special interest. It is as if the Pontiff was unfolding his thoughts in the simplest language, and confiding them to a friend. The character of the Pontiff shiae-

throughout in this interview. Conciliation marks every word. But at the same time he holds, with all the tenacity of his great office, to the necessity for the full liberty and independence of the Church. And it is this condition which the Italian Government refuses.