MR. STAFFORD ON EDUCATION.

New Zealand Tablet, Volume I, Issue 51, 18 April 1874, Page 7

MR. STAFFORD ON EDUCATION.

Mb Stafford iv addressing the electors of Heaibcotc is reported aa follows :—: — Mr Stafford on coming foward was received with prolonged cheering. Now, with regard to the part of the article in the ' Lyttelton Times ' which I huve to complain ol ; it was this : the imputation that I had seen thai there was some discontent on the part of the Catholics of the province, and that I had adapted my remarks to that discontent. I am not in the habit of changing my conscientious opinions on the spur of the moment, merely to catch votes or tall in with the views «f any section of the community. For a direct refutation of that statement I refer you to a speech made Eonse two years ago, long before I thought of coming to reside in this district, much less of asking you for a seat in the Provincial Council — a speech oiade in the House of Representatives on the second reading of the Education Bill, which was brought in by Air Fox's Government. I irade that speech after very careful consideration, given not only at the time, but over a series of years, during which my attention was drawn to the subject, a subject which was agitating all civilised communities — the question of State Education — and I have eeeu nothing to cause me to alter the views 1 then expressed. Fo 'hpt speech I refer you all to ' Hansard,' which you will rind in your purlin libraries, and can read for yourselves. Therefere I think that the ' Lyttulton Times ' owed me an apology for having stated tha; I had for the occasion, pro hac vice, adopted view« which '-ould fall in with the opinions of eouie of the

electors. The view I took on the question two years ago, and still entertain, is this. The State — to use a word which ie recognised as embracing the public authorities, executive and legislative, as dealing with tbo public interests of the whole community — has a right to determine to what system of education, or, indeed, of any other work, it will contribute public funds and levy, taxation on the whole community. It has a right to do that, and especially has a Government, based upon what is in this country almost universal suffrage, a right to do so when acting through the mouths of its representatives; but it has always appeared to me that a wise and politic Government will consider how to establish an institution which will work in harmony with the convictions of all in furthering the object in view, and will not set up a permanent. cause of discontent, a system which it does not end with the attainment of the object, but is most likely to create a banded discontent hostile to the administration of Government ia other things. I therefore say that I deem it politic so to shape your legislation as to cause the minimum of hostility and opposition. lam quite aware of the very great attention which is being paid at the present moment, and for some time past, in communities snch as yourselves, on the question of elementary iastruction for the people j and I say that it ought to be our object to establish a system which will have the ready assent^ and adherence of all sections of the community. Now, the objection which is taken by some sections of the community — not the Catholics only, but by many others as well as them— is that they are obliged to put their hands in their pockets and contribute towards a system of education which they do not consider entirely fair to themselves. lam informed, upon very good grounds, that there no people in this community who object to being rated for public instruction, or to a proper inspection by Government officers, so as to insure that (he education provided is sufficient — then, I lay, why in God's name should wo drive any portion of the community who are willing to be rated, willing to have a Government inspection as an assurance that sufficient education in given, why should wed live them to Bay,"Wethink itis unfair to us that we should be taxed for a system which we cannot conscientiously approve of when we are quite willing to be taxed for a system which will provide the same instruction and superadd something mpre ?" There is a great deal of what I may call " claptrap" in the term " secular education." We see candidates not only in this province, but in other places outside of New Zealand, »aying, " We are all for secular education only." Having given considerable attention to the subject, lam competent to form some opinion upon it, and I say absolutely that I do not know what secular education is, and I have never yet found anybody competent to tell me. The moment you get beyond writing and arithmetic, and pui-e mathematics, even if you come to geography, you cease to have secular education, and you more ©r less traverse the conscientious opinions aud scruples of the people. Take the large question of history. No person can be said to be in any degree educated who knows nothing of history. Who agree upon history, amongst those holding conscientious views? What one standard history will they accept as true and correct in its facts and in its infereuces ? It is impossible to give a purely secular education the moment you depart from the subjects 1 have indicated, without trenching more or less upon religious convictions. What have we at heart in this country ? Do not we want to eeo our children and tho3e of our neighbors educated ? Do not we want to take an honest pride in thinking that the native bora New Zcalanders shall not blush, when meeting people elsewhere, at not possessing thut elementary instruction which shall render them capable of further instiucting themselves? I think it is wise and politic for a state so to shape its instruction as to enable all sections of the community cordially to pull together for the purpose of having their children mutually instructed. I have heard it said that ii you give aid to any school set up by any religious denomination, which imparts the instructiou required by the Government, subject to the periodical inspection of Government officers, while it teaches something else, some paitioular form of belief or opinion, you are creating heart-burniug and acrimonious feeling between the people of the country. I ■will give you an illustration which I know to be a fact, and which can be corroborated by some gentlemen who are present — one an old i'rend of mine, the late Speaker of the House of .Representatives, Sir Djvicl Monro, who is here to-night (Applause) I do not know what are Sir David Monro'a opinions on this question, but I know that he has taken a considerable interest over a long period of years in instruction, and that he consented, at my request, so long ago as 1863, to be a member of a commission to consider and report upon a system of instruction to be introduced into the province of Nelson. There is v school in Nelson which has been in existence for many yeais. It was established under the superintendence of Father Gaiin, and f< r many y as ti ere waa a larger proportion of Protestant children than of Cutnolics attending it, and it was admitted to give tho very best elementary instruction in the province of Nelsun, and, ■nil!) the exeept'ou uf the Nelson College, no school could compete -nnh it. There was no imputation of proseljtUing ; and people who w ere anti-Catholic sent their children there. I could name one who almost shudders when he talks of the Catholic religion, aud yet lie sent his sons there, and never complained tint their religious convictions were tampered with. That is worth a whole bubhel of assertions to the effect that dmominational scho.ols must necessarily engender acrimonious feelings between persons of different creeds. I appeal to that school as a complete denial to such an assertion, and I say more, that the rivalry between the different schools makes a great difference between them as the difference between a well-bred horse going by himself ou tho road and the 6iimo horse wheu he is stirred by competition with others. You all know tho advantage of competition. Let the school be subject to the Government inspection as to whether it gives sufficient elementary iustiuution as to justify its being granted a portion of the umounta contributed by the different denominations. r lho different denominations do not a*k for the money contributed by others, but they 6av, " let us have a fair proportion, head hv hea I, of jrhed we contribute, or our own rales returned, wherovor thore is a furtain number of children (I think it iB 30 in Nelson), and the power ©f indicating wl.at school is to receive our rates." That is one of the moat reasonable planß, and I hope that my friend, Mr Montgomery,

who, is the present head of. the Executive, and I trust wiil continue to be so, an able man, and one who has thorougly the interest of th, pro. vincee at heart, who holds large colonial -views, and who will take the large statesmanlike view that it is always, wise to hare a contented people instead at an ojganised, banded, discontent. I hope he will see, when the time, comes for further considering the existing law oil the subject, that there is so much to be said on the side of the question upon which I hare just enlarged, as will prevent him from absolutely setting up a deaf ear on the subject. I have very great hopes 10 his sagacity, and I believe him tp be one of these people who will not refuse all his life to reconsider it, simply because he has once committed himself to an opinion. My experience in public affairs— and I claim to have had some considerable experience — is that those who hold office are always being educated. They are finding constantly not only what can be done, but what cannot be dono. The great object of all administrative and legislative bodies is first to find out what is the best thing. If they can do the best thing, in God's name let them do it, if not, let them do the besfc practical thing. (Cheers.) I say it without the least regard to the result of the election, which I may say is a matter of so much indifference to me that it was quite an accident that I consented to come forward at all. If I may not be considered presumptuous in giving some advice, I say that we should from year to year always consider our actions On all large questions, and that our laws shall not be like those of the Medea and Persians, absolutely unalterable. Those of us who are not learning something from year to year to cauae them to change their opinions, people who Btop their ears against all advice, are not the people I would wcommend you to elect as legislators. 'A writer in the 'Lyttlet'on Times ' wrote a letter desiring tu. know whether I was going in to repeal the Education Ordinance. (Hear, hear.) My first iutention was to reply through the paper, but I thought it better to do it verbally to-night. If I am elected, I am not going to run a-muck, and say I will repeal the Ordinance. I want to see it amended. I think the time will come when, quite apart from this question and on mere technical grounds the Ordinance will require amendment. If I can judge from the remarks of candidates and electors throughout the province durinz the last fortnight, they want to give the Ordinance a fair trial ia order to find out its weak points, and not to amend it hastily. lam quite content to wait until it is admitted that the Ordinance requires to be amended and then I shall endeavour, if you honor me by electing me, to brine forward the consideration of the principles which I bavo ventured to submit to you this evening, not before. I hope there is no evasion in that. (Applause ) The • Lyrtelton Times ' said that I cleverly evaded it. I don t want to evade. What object could I have in doing so? 1 should be false to my whole political c-»reer if I did that. I hope I shall not now be considered as having evaded the question You know what you have to expect. When the time comes for the amendment of this law I shall be found, if I am in the Council, advocating an amendment in the direction I have pointed out ; and I think it is fair, having reference to deep conscientious convictions whioh many in this room may think to be wrong. . What are we but a congeries of a number of different units, brought together and contributing to the carrying on of public affairs, not only by our voices but by our pockets and purses. I hope the question will be considered more on the broad statesmanlike and politic view t'aaa it has yet been in Canterbury I take leave to say that I do not think it has been as carefully considered from that point of view, the point of view of having tho whole community working together for the object of public instruction for the youug. That is what we hare to get, and any way that will « e t it with the least jarring and opposition will have my support. Ido not know that I need enlarge anymore on this subject. I should not have said so much had I not been expected to do 'so Mr Clephane inquired if Mr Stafford considered a uniform rate on rich and poor a fair oue. Mr Stafford did not consider it would be fair if the schools were entirely maintained by the rates. Education was a great benefit to the community, and he thought that the people who had a lar 2 o etake in the country should pay proportionately They must consider however, that the rates were only a small portion of the cost of edac'ation and they could not go to the same extreme as if they were the whole cost. The pr.nciple he would like to see would be perpetual endowments for education which would keep pace with the requirements of the place. He ihould like to see a fund from behind which would provide education in advance of the requirements of the people and that could only be done by considerable public endowments If they were to depend entirely on rating, he thought that the property of the country should bear more. He was of opinion that on most questions a property tax was much fairer than a special tax. He had advocated th t for years, at a time when lie was nissed for it. It w a3 said that such a tax was unknown. That might be so. He did not know any colony that had a property tax yet, but they must all have a be<nnuinz Ihey were going to have lnavy taxation in a few jaws, and he°did not hnow a fairer shape in which it could come than as an income tax He was very glad to find that a number of people were now to be found who agreed with him in this view. Mr Clephane asked how Mr Stafford accounted for the fact that although Protestants attended the school at Nelson, the Catholic could not attend the Protestant school here. Mr Stafford was giving no opinion as to what the Catholics did here or did not. He had merely instanced that school as a proof that denominational schools wero not necessarily productive of acrimonious heart-buruings. Mr Hall asked if it was not inconsistent for the Catholics bore to refuse to send their children to the Government schools ? Mr Stafford was not there to answer for the Catholics It had been said that the he had the Catholic vote, but if so he was not aware of it. He had been asked by many persons to come forward as a candidate, but so far as he knew not one of them was a Catholic. He was not in the confidence of the Catholics, therefore he must decline to aay what was or was not inconsistent on their part. In reply to Mr Hall, Mr Stafford stated that he considered that in this country there was no one race of people who should ride

r ough-shod over others. They should consider themselves as New Zealanders, and he hoped that their children would call themselves by that name. The affairs of the colony would never be thoroughly well managed until they had a legislature composed of native-born New Zealanders.

Mr Olliver asked whether it was just to free-thinkers and those who, as he did, looked upon all religions with abhorence, to reestablish denominational schools.

Mr Stafford did not think that those who did not belong to any denomination would claim to have a special school. When Mr Forster introduced the Education Bill into the House of Commons some two years ago, he stated that it was a ourious fact that in all the reports which were received, it was not the parents of the children who objected to religious education, but it was some outside persons who did so, and that statement was not contradicted. Of course if a sufficient number of such people as Mr Olliver referred to were to be fonnd they could have a separate school, but if the views of each person were to be inculcated it would amount to every man maintaining a school for himself.

In reply to John Lewis, Mr Stafford said he considered the nation f *nass of sects, and he looked upon " national " and " sectarian " as By aonymous terms.