Up till now we've been talking about primary education for Maori children. Would I be right in saying that at this time (1930) very few Maoris went on to secondary school? Yes, but very few European children went either. Only those who passed Proficiency could go on, and great numbers of children never even passed Standard 4—that's when they left school. It was a real tussle for parents to get children to pass the Proficiency. But, there's another side to the secondary education and this is the Government's support of the mission schools in the early days, and that support went on to St Stephen's and Te Aute and St Joseph's and all other denominational schools. But they were not post-primary schools in those days—they were primary schools (and of course out of Te Aute came the Young Maori Party and Ngata himself and Pomare). However, these schools slowly developed into secondary schools, and the scholarship system, which had been provided by the Government right from the very beginning, was steadily increased in numbers and in value. But apart from these private denominational schools, very few Maoris went to state secondary schools. And even later, when Proficiency was abolished in 1936 and Maoris did go to secondary schools, they went with inadequate language and with no background. Don't forget, the secondary schools were staffed by secondary teachers with classical training and at that time they considered these kids just a nuisance. I wonder if you could tell us just a little bit about the bringing of the Maori district high schools to the East Coast? Well, this was the effort the department made to fill this gap. Now, maybe we made a mistake there, too, looking back on it. But Dr Beeby and I went right up the East Coast to open the first one—at Te Araroa—and we met the Maoris. Now, again, when I told you earlier that the Maoris didn't want the Maori language taught, but English, secondary education they didn't want what we thought they needed. They wanted exams and they wanted their children to progress and perhaps go on to university. We started The hangi for inspectors Fletcher and Ball these district high schools, you see, and we said ‘Let them be practical and helpful to the Maoris; we'll have model cottages, we'll have woodwork rooms, we'll teach them to cook, we'll teach them how to bring up babies’, but they didn't want that. As a result, few pupils could pass School Certificate, and what they wanted was further denied them because we couldn't get the sort of teachers we wanted up there in those isolated areas—few would go. So, all in all, I don't think that the Maori district high schools were a great success. But I mustn't under-estimate them—they did a marvellous job, but they didn't meet the Maoris' anticipated requirements and so they didn't appeal to the Maori. How easy was it, Mr Ball, to find out just what the Maoris did want for their children in those days? As far as I know, there was no way of finding out except by talking to the Maoris themselves. There was no organisation you see, no unity. I can illustrate that. Say we wanted to appoint a Maori junior assistant to the Kaikohe native school; we wouldn't dare send a girl from the Ngati Porou. She was from another tribal area or probably their enemies from the past. That's gone today, thank goodness. But there was really no one voice for the Maori people. They were all so very polite and if you did discuss matters with them they were more than likely to agree with you anyhow, whether they wanted to or not. One of the great weakness in Maori education in New Zea-