FROM SPLITZ ENZ TO GARAGELAND Michael Gundinski

Rip It Up, Issue 242, 1 October 1997, Page 27

FROM SPLITZ ENZ TO GARAGELAND Michael Gundinski

This year is the 25th anniversary for Australian independent music label Mushroom, the home for many New Zealand recording artists, since the label signed Split Enz and Mother Goose in the 70s. Once upon a time, Mushroom was a wild Aussie indie that gave us Skyhooks with radical album titles like Straight in a Gay Gay World (1976) and song titles like ‘You just Like Me ‘Cos I’m Good In Bed’, and the

swansong to their fans, ‘Why Don’t You All Get Fucked’.

In the early days of RipltUp I have fond recollections of meeting Mushroom’s Michael Gudinski and Gary Ashley as they were the first record company people who honestly, “really” thought that New Zealand having a music magazine RipltUp was “fantastic”. While many view Gudinski as a control-freak with a finger in too many pies, I remember an enthusiast with a vision, peddling some great music. RipltUp spoke to founder Michael Gudinski as part of the our 20th Anniversary interview series, as we couldn’t think of any one who could rival the mogul from Melbourne for having put

millions of dollars behind New Zealand recording artists. The Mushroom Kiwi artists list was always long, with popular acts such as the Split Enz, Mother Goose, Swingers, Dance Exponents, DD Smash, and Coconut Rough, but with Mushroom getting financially behind the Flying Nun label in the late 80s, the number of New Zealand artists to shelter under the Mushroom umbrella ballooned. The Chills, the Straitjacket Fits, Headless Chickens, the Bats, and JPSE got to record big budget albums. The Chills were linked with Slash, USA. The Straitjacket Fits were signed to USA hit factory Arista. And Flying Nun in Auckland got to continue, business as usual, working with recording artists such as the Clean, NRA, 3DS, Chris Knox, Tall Dwarfs, Superette, David Kilgour, Bailter Space, King Loser, HDU, Solid Gold Hell, Garageland, Bressa Greeting Cake, etc. With Mushroom opening in London in the 90s, and enjoying UK success with Ash on subsidiary label Infectious, and Garbage and Peter Andre on Mushroom, Flying Nun’s latest local success story Garageland were summoned to England to join the roster. With Michael Gudinski also involved in music publishing, management, and Frontier Touring, many other Kiwi artists have worked with Gudinski — Supergroove and Fiona MacDonald are published by Mushroom Publishing (as were Propeller acts Screaming Meemees and Blam Blam Blam), and Annie Crummer and

Supergroove have worked with Gudinski’s MGM Management. The man is known to have an average attention of span of two minutes. Several years back I recall several one minute conversations over the course of an evening and I asked a mutual friend. ‘ls there something wrong?’ The friend replied, ‘No, that means he likes you’. Getting Michael Gudinski to sit down for 30 minutes, took a few faxes and a trip to Melbourne. Interview one was cancelled as Michael’s Aussie Rules team St. Kilda had won a crucial game and he was a no show at the office on Monday. When I arrive for the rescheduled Tuesday interview, the phone is ringing and Michael is

buzzing. “You’re not in hurry, are you? You’ll get a bit of ambience,” says Gudinski. “I’m in a good mood today my footy team is really kicking arse!”

I ask whether he has seen our 77 —97 interviews? “Yeah. Roger [Shepherd] was diplomatic.” At his personal assistant’s request I am asked. “Murray, how long are we gonna need? — No pressure, no pressure!” We establish a minimum time and Michael lies on the couch, but immediately jumps up, Michael the enthusiast has found the missing cork to a wine bottle and he must tell Mary, his P.A. of 20 or so years. He’s found something and he wants to tell somebody — this sort of sums up his life in the record business.

But he’s back in the room, the phone’s ringing and he’s shouting at it — “GO AWAY!” So the answerphone is turned on, and over the next 30 minutes only loud rain disturbs us. Michael is enthusiastic about the rain as Melbourne needs it! As Mushroom approached its 25 years in the business, massive changes have taken place. News Limited purchased 49%, Mushroom opened in London, co-founder Gary Ashley resigned, Mushroom’s Australian market share collapsed as the UK hits started happening, Mushroom increased its ownership of Flying Nun to 100%, and this year Mushroom moved its distribution from Festival to Sony in Australia, and to BMG in New Zealand. How’s it been working with Rupert Murdoch’s News Limited? “So far, it’s been fantastic! We had better start at the beginning. Why did you start a record label? ■ -'

“Basically in the late 60s and early 70s in Oz, most of the major record companies in Australia didn’t record Australian artists, and there were a few fly by night independent labels that came and went in a hurry and most of them were notorious for not paying the artists etc.

“In about 71 the two bands I was managing were the Chain and Healing Force, which were two of Australia’s great bands of the time, and they both split up within about two weeks of each other. I was a real fan of both of the acts and it really depressed me, and I had a real good look at what the problems were — they were both signed on archaic recording contracts. Healing Force had a great hit record, they could have been enormous and the record company wouldn’t even commit to doing an album, that’s why they broke up. And the Chain were frustrated by little things that are taken for granted today, having a say in your album cover and having a say in who produced you, just creative controls that are very important to talented artists. As a manager I felt the only way to progress with my artists in the future was to set up my own record label. It wasn’t a vision that this was going to be a great money making venture, but just a necessity. “I wanted to show the industry, as small as it was then, particularly the retail side, that Mushroom wasn’t a fly by night label, that we were very serious about things. That’s

why we started with a triple vinyl album pack Sunbury Festival 1973, which was. unbelievable, very costly, a gatefold opening out. We had big launches, we tied the Mushroom Growers Association in, we had Mushroom food, we had artists performing, things that hadn’t been done then. “We were formed in 72 and the first records came out in 73. Our philosophy behind it was we were going to have a booking agency, a management company, a touring company, a publishing company, so everything would work hand in hand, so instead of doing 500 BScW posters, we could do 2000 colour posters, just to uplift the presentation of the artists.” When you started was there a culturecringe from Australians towards their own music? “There was definitely a disrespect in the sense that there was the feeling, just like the Holden car, Australian music was of lesser quality than the import.”

When did you first come across New Zealand musicians? “I came across New Zealand musicians before I even started Mushroom, I managed a band Freshwater from New Zealand, who were a great band, I was the Melbourne agent for the La De Das. I’d worked with some

“Split Enz at their greatest were in a world of their own. ”

great New Zealand musicians. So I was very aware of New Zealand musicians. “And then early in the Mushroom history I came across and got very, very involved with Split Enz. We keep a close eye on New Zealand music. We had Dance Exponents, DD Smash, Mother Goose, and the Swingers, which was a really big one. We set up a small office with Michael Chunn. Then we had a number of our own people working in Festival, and now there’s a change of distribution and we’ve got two solely Mushroom people at BMG. New Zealand has always been important in my mind, regardless of the fact it’s quite a small market. Whenever I used to think it was tough in Australia, and get depressed, I’d think what it would be like running a label in New Zealand. “That’s how my respect and interest in the Flying Nun label came about. The label had been around so long and I couldn’t work out how this guy [Roger Shepherd] had managed to sign so many acts and survive, and that’s where we took the step of getting involved in Flying Nun.”

J J I Jr 1 J f J tl* 1 1- !J J J u/ .rn-oi INTERVIEW N 0.6 In the 70s did you ever consider dropping Split Enz? “Yeah. There was a time we came close to dropping them? Right before the Frenzy album and the ‘I See Red’ track. We were considering dropping them and they were really trying to get away from us. They had antagonistic English management involved, and I think if the management could have got a really impressive English deal they would have wanted to leave Mushroom. Let’s rephrase it a little bit, I never really thought about dropping them because I really believed

in them, however they were trying to break away for a while, and it’s pretty well • documented in the book [Stranger Than Fiction: The Life and Times of Split Enz]. They were promised a lot of things by this English management. For two or three months he was all talk and he never really delivered anything. They came close to getting a decent deal and really the band would have broken, and I got a hand written letter from Tim Finn saying ‘This is the situation, we’d really like to ... ’ “We went on from there, recorded the Frenzy album and injected a lot more money. History happened from there on. The next album of course was True Colours. Mushroom always prided itself in having unique, interesting and original artists, and Split Enz was a band that summed up all of that. ‘ “The day I signed them, I’d already seen them a number of times, in fact a couple of members of Skyhooks were very keen on them. We brought them to play in Melbourne at a Festival Hall concert before 5,000 screaming Skyhooks fans, and they got booed off stage. People in my office said, ‘Are you sure you want to sign this band?’ I said listen, ‘A reaction like that is a great reaction’. Reaction is what it’s all about, good or bad. That night I remember having a car accident on my way to their hotel to sign the contracts.” With the demise of Split Enz, were they at the end of their Mushroom contract by then? “Without reliving it, the management that got involved with Split Enz when they came

back to Australia [from England] which I set up, a guy I went to school with, Nathan Brenner. It is pretty well documented that him and I didn’t get on, and it really did get quite emotional as not only did we not get on, but I was the guy who got him in with the group, got him involved, got him the job, and I felt shat on from a great height. “The end result was that it really put a lot of pressure on Split Enz and it had a lot to do with the breaking up of the band, and history says that my relationship with the band is good, I’m still involved with both Finn brothers, I’ve still got their publishing and Nathan Brenner is a person non gratis in that camp. It’s a shame because he really had something, I helped him all the way and with True Colours they came so close to breaking America, they came so close to becoming a Supertramp or Pink Floyd which they should have been, and he really fought against a lot of things we set up, he turned the band against the American management that they had, who are now some of the most successful people in the business in America, and he turned the band against myself. At the end of the Split Enz era, there was no way I was going to work with the different personalities involved. And then Nathan fell out of the picture soon after the Mullanes [who became Crowded House] were formed, and our relationship became very good again and creatively Mushroom Publishing and the Finns have done some great things together. They’re an incredible part of what’s an amazing catalogue for me.” Is there plans for a Split Enz re-release? “Yes, to tie in with the 25th Anniversary

we’re doing a definitive, remastered best of Split Enz album, and the band have been involved in all of it. I think with the incredible success Crowded House had, after they’d finished, it really magnifies to people how much potential there is — Crowded House fans who haven’t gone that far back into Split Enz. There’s a massive market for Split Enz. I’m not taking anything away from Crowded House. Split Enz at their greatest were in a world of their own.” You’ve worked with musicians from Australia and New Zealand, and now you’re working with musicians from the Northern Hemisphere like Ash and Garbage. How do they compare? In your time you’ve had some time-wasters. “There’s time-wasters everywhere in the world. It’s hard to generalise. The one thing that I’ve found is that a lot of musicians, particularly in the earlier days, from Australia and New Zealand, and I respect them for this, were more concerned with the art and the music, than the business side of things, the commitment to really making it. I’m one who believes the art of the music is critical, but I don’t see why it can’t be mixed with a desire to be successful without totally compromising anything.” “In Australia and New Zealand a lot of people are more in bands for the fun of it. Certainly through the 70s it was like that.” Is making a record as much fun in 1997 as it was in 1977? “I still love what we’re doing. The difference is that in 1977 virtually every act on the label, I was a personal fan of and was signing. You’ve got to make music now that appeals to kids from 6 to 15, from 15 to 25, from 25 to 38, from 38 to 60. There’s . different generations of music. You can’t possibly cover everything. There’s styles that I’m not that into and styles that I’m not . qualified to know about. I have a lot more people around me to cater for different music. “In 77 I was a lot more involved in the recording process. I don’t think I’d have the

patience now to spend the time in the studio. I used to executive produce a lot more records back then. I have as much fun now listening to a killer track now as I did in 77.” Is it all big budget? “No, in fact it’s gone through extremes from big big budget to small small budget, and now there’s no definitive way. We’ve completely changed our philosophy, we’re putting a lot more money behind acts that we believe in and signing less acts. That doesn’t necessarily mean we’re spending more money in the studio on some of them, but more money in the marketing, the promotion, the

tour support and getting them out there. “There are great opportunites today for young people to make 1000 CDs and get their music heard and get started, which is a far easier situation than in 77. On the other hand, I’d be naive to say I could set Mushroom Records up today and compete with the big companies, because the gap isn’t there that there was. We started Mushroom Records with $5,000 back in 1972 and today you’d need more money and more financial backing. We must have needed more backing back then — before Skyhooks happened we were in hot financial water even though we’d had success. It wasn’t financial success.” Do you think the stakes are getting higher and higher — you can’t get your money back on New Zealand or Australian sales alone? “I’m sure the recording of ‘How Bizarre’ was not that expensive a recording, and I’m sure the recording of that record would pay for itself in New Zealand. There are always going to be exceptions. The days of making a record for your suburb, your town, or your / country, is really irrelevant unless your making a style of music that is parochial. Any other style of music you want the world to hear it.” Did you always have the ambition to / > succeed overseas? “Yeah. I had the ambition to succeed overseas before I started Mushroom Records. One of the reasons I started Mushroom was Chain had a great record, a Number One, ‘Black And Blue’, and we were told by our record company we had a big international — contract. The international release came and went and we didn’t know it went out. You were lucky to get one copy of it. It was on a label that lived up to its name, Avalanche, a new label owned by United Artists. We were so naive, we thought we had an American deal — ‘wow!’. If you get a record released overseas that only puts you on the track, you still have to run the race. You’ve always said you want to succeed in the USA. Is opening in London just a route to the USA? “Yes. We’ve opened in the States before, late 70s / early 80s and nearly went broke. We had already had a huge amount of success in Britain and Europe with Kylie and Jason. We thought with News Limited’s input we could really break England and jump into America. As history has turned out, it took a lot more time and a lot more money to break Britain. At one stage we were going to shut the whole thing down. I’m glad we didn’t because all of a sudden we went from being v asm i ■« a

one of the million independent labels there, to being up with Creation as one of the hottest independent labels in Britain. Most independent labels can break one act, we’ve had three different success stories — Garbage, Peter Andre, and Ash — all different styles and all phenomenally successful within a 12 month period. We went from being extremely cold and financially fucked, to extremely hot and finding our way back financially. “We’ve also now had some success with Deni Hines with a Top 40 single. Symposium had a Top 30 single — they’re the next Infectious signing that will be very big. Garageland — we’ve taken a Flying Nun band to England and toured them and put money behind them, certainly more than any other Flying Nun act ever. We’ve got a big. deal for them now in America. They’re touring America now. I feel now we’re really starting to achieve something, but England

was a tough road and we only just made it. “Garbage is a key factor in the rebirth of Mushroom, not only financially but image wise and creatively. The fact that we signed them a year before they found Shirley Manson, the fact that they’re a real musician’s band looked good for the Mushroom label — and the fact that we signed them and funded them a year before they had an American label was a key factor too.” Was your move into England because doors were closing for an independent in Australia?

“If you get a record released overseas that only puts you on the track, you still have to run the race.”

“It became tougher in Australia for an independent because a couple of the majors were throwing big money at artists. I think it became too easy to get a record deal and it became too hard to get records released internationally. Half the reason I’m frustrated about America is not that my artists have failed there. We haven’t even seen the light of day there. “One of the mistakes we made in England earlier on was we were perceived as an Australian record company in England. We’re now perceived as an international record company in England. That’s why it was important to sign international acts. My love of Australian and New Zealand artists is as passionate as ever, but we’re not forcing Mushroom England to release anything they don’t want to release. “It was getting harder here, but because ‘doors were closing’. A few key things went against us here. We were the first company to approach Silverchair to sign them. We were told we had them. Sony came in from the back and congratulations to them and prized them from under us. It’s documented and talked about and unfortunately there’s no second prize. Had we had Silverchair, who knows would we have done as good a job, but had we had them we may not have had the financial struggle we went through. “As usual when it rains, it pours. As England went bad, Australia was going through a tough time. No record label anywhere in the world, no matter how big they are, how much money they’ve got can stay hot 52 weeks of the year. You’ve got to be able to cover for times when you’re not hot. “Tina Arena was an act we were very friendly with and close to and was an act we passed on. Within those two signings could have been the difference between Mushroom’s financial straits and phenomenal success. We do lots of artists but it’s always been that the top 10 percent who will always pay for the other 90 percent.” You’ve always sought to be an independent, does the involvement of Rupert Murdoch’s News Limited change that independence? “No. It obviously gives us some financial security. It has given us better systems — financial reporting is so much better than it used. Something I learnt many years ago is no matter how creative you are, how much artistic freedom you give, no matter how cool you are, if you’re not paying your bills, if you’re not paying your royalties, you’re shit.

“I’d love to think that we’ll be able to really break a New Zealand act internationally.” u wwww. » wwwrnM a mwwwuwa *-« waiwiflw 1 > nwramMU « «»•»> wt s

Too many independent labels have been like that. It’s not easy for us at certain times. “Creatively News Limited haven’t interfered with the label at all. I’d like to think that with their back-up we will finally break America when we set up there. That’s something I’m looking forward to doing next year. Is the move away from distributor Festival Records important? “I’ve got to say it’s been a very significant change, perhaps something I should have done earlier on. A lot of my artists were frustrated over the last few years. I was very loyal, I stayed with the same distributor for 24 years. Festival gave me some very good times and in the first 10 years I wouldn’t have survived without them.” Was the move away from Festival (a News Limited Company) a test of Mushroom’s independence?

“No, but it was seen to be. I wouldn’t have got involved with News Limited, I would have sold the whole... It was very important for me to have the freedom to make those kinds of moves.” You have two outlets for music in New Zealand — via BMG and your own Flying Nun I Flying In distribution. What’s the future for your indie operation? “We have the same situation here where we have MDS [Mushroom Distribution Service]. Flying In and MDS need to grow together for their longterm success. I think it gives us a chance to have major distribution but still remain with a cutting edge, for our international labels we distribute, as well. Flying Nun has an American office. Is the label making the progress you want internationally? “No.” - . /. What about Garageland? “When the whole Garageland thing happened a lot of people said they were so un-Flying Nun. That says something. Flying • Nun isn’t what it was. We’re going to review the whole American situation because it has not achieved a lot yet, however I’ve got great faith in Paul [McKessar] and Lesley [Paris] in developing this Flying In thing. . “It’s a new era in Flying Nun, Roger Shepherd going has really meant that Flying Nun is no different from Mushroom, White, Liberation — every label has its own identity but it’s another Mushroom label. It’s a great label with great history and I don’t want to see the name go away, however, until we really break a Flying Nun act we’ll not really be signing anywhere near the amount of acts.

“The same philosophy that we’ve got here we’re going to have with Flying Nun, put more behind less and have success. Paul and Lesley will be very involved in the marketing, breaking and working internationally. They are more than Flying Nun employees, they are part of the Mushroom group and that’s a big change. They seem very keen on it. I’d love to think that we’ll be able to really break a New Zealand act internationally. Until we really achieve that we’ll not be able to do that much. We’ll nurture and develop a couple of people but we’ll be very careful. “I read the interview RipltUp did with Roger Shepherd. I have great respect for Roger, he gave it a great try. We put a lot of money in. I notice he didn’t talk a lot about it and I hope I’m not talking too much about it to piss him off, but truthfully the label has lost a hell of a lot of money and it had to be restructured and re-looked at.” With your recent success with UK and USA recording artists, will New Zealand talent feature in the future of Mushroom as it has in the past? “Definitely. I’d like to think with better back up there will be more success out of New Zealand. A band like Shihad, so many people talk about them around the world, if they had the right breaks and the right label behind them internationally, I think there’s no doubt that they should have broken by now. “We have completely restructured our , A&R department under Mark Opitz, the most successful Australian producer in my lifetime, and he will be looking at talent both in Australia and New Zealand.” Will you return to a situation where you have a ‘Mushroom NZ’ with New Zealand artists? “Definitely. A lot will depend on the next six months in Australia, as we really reestablish ourselves here. With the new set-up we have in New Zealand with BMG, and Mark Ashbridge coming from Festival to run it, we will certainly be looking more actively than we were.”

MURRAY CAMMICK