G-.—5.

24

[S. WILLIAMS.

my hands. I never had any difficulty, but if there was a difficulty I should submit it to the trustees as a matter of course. 50. The object of the trust, of course, was simply to promote education amongst Maori children, without defining whether it should be higher education or primary education? —That is so; to do the best we could. 51. When the school was first established, was it a primary school?— Yes, we had to begin with the alphabet sometimes. 52. But you did not carry on secondary classes at that time?—No; we tried to teach them habits of industry, and to get them to do work; but, as I said before, the Natives objected to it. I tried to get them to cultivate their own food; _ but in the days of free education they followed the example of the Europeans. 53. They do not do that any longer? —No. We make them do a good deal of work on the place in helping to grow vegetables, and so forth, and in keeping the place tidy. At Otaki I tried to get them to cultivate their own food ; but after all I think the boys' labour amounts to nothing, practically. They are as bad as English boys. 54. What is the qualification for admission? —Perhaps I will allow Mr. Thornton to explain that. We receive all applications. We encourage them to send in applications. Then we send them a paper with questions on it, and when we get these replies in Mr. Thornton and myself take each case into consideration and act as fairly as we can according to our judgment. 55. Are any fees paid?—We do not get very much out of the Maoris, but when the parents of English boys, and sometimes of half-caste boys are in a position to pay, we feel it is only right they should pay something, at all events. But we do not exclude a boy because he cannot pay. 56. There is no defined system of fees at all? —We take each case into consideration, and settle,it on its merits. I might say that preference is given to the local Natives, if possible—to those connected with the grants. We think it only fair to. give them an advantage. 57. I presume preference is given to Maori applicants when there are vacancies?— Yes, as a rule. I think the fairest way to put it is to say that we treat each case on its merits. 58. Is there an age-limit or an educational limit: when they are considered to be fully educated and must leave the school ?—Even in these matters each case is treated on its merits. We like to, do the best we can for the boys before they go. We find after they have been with us a certain time that they try to get into some means of earning a livelihood, and then they leave us after a reasonable time. 59. You have no difficulty in getting rid of them?—We try to lead them out. 59a. When they do leave school, do they usually give a good account of themselves?—l think, on the whole, they manage very well. We have disappointments sometimes like you have in every line of life, but on the whole I think we have every reason to be grateful. 60. The education they receive is classical, is it not?— Some of them. There are different classes, of course, but I think I will leave that matter-to Mr. Thornton. 61. Then, from your own observation, you believe that the majority have been successful in life after leaving the school? —I think so; at all events, a'very fair proportion of them; and in taking them up and helping them into any other work we find that the educated Maori is decidedly better material to work with than the uneducated Maori. We help some of them into the farming line. I have taken a great deal of interest and trouble in getting some of them on the land, particularly on the east coast. Mr. Ngata can give you some information about that. We have taken a great deal of trouble to get them to work their land and farms and sheep-runs, and it is much easier to do that with the.educated boys than it is with the uneducated. I have lost at times a good deal of money in helping the Maoris forward. In the uneducated' Maori his own immediate requirements are uppermost, and if there is money given him to help him in his farming, it will be wasted on horse-racing and the totalisator. 62. Then you consider the fact of them being well educated does not interfere with their doing useful work afterwards? —Not in the least. I think it is the same with some of our races. My experience, and the experience of those working under me, has been that the educated European will do better work than the uneducated one, and it is the same with the Maoris. 63. Do you know whether ihey are taught book-keeping or account-keeping? —It is taught sometimes in their education. We endeavour to educate them so as to make them as useful citizens as possible. 64. Are they taught to keep their own accounts, supposing they have the handling of money afterwards?—l think I will leave that department to Mr. Thornton. 65. With regard to the land itself: Do you know whether there has been any desire expressed by the community to get that land cut up and divided into farms? —I am aware of the applications, sent to the House, but I do not think they originated with the parties who signed them. 66. I suppose the land is well watered?— Yes, fairly well. Some parts are better watered than others. There is a good deal that will puzzle you to find a drink for an animal. 67. A good deal of the soil is first class? —A fair quantity, I think. The sketch that accompanied Mr. Barron's letter will give you a very good indication as to where the good land is.Mr. Coleman was with him, and he said a good deal of the land was very poor indeed, and it has always proved so, and I notice Mr. Barron has very carefully excluded all that. I said to him, "You are evidently a judge. I suppose you want the land that is in the valley near the railway." He shrugged his shoulders. 68. The reason I am asking these questions, is this: you are aware there is a great desire for close settlement ?—Yes. 69. Do you think a considerable part of that.property could be made into dairy farms, for instance? —I think dairy farms for.Hawke's Bay are an absolute mistake. 70. Why?—We want more rain. The west coast is the place for dairy-farmers,