S. WILLIAMS.]

23

G.—s.

if you will give an equivalent, and I will give money to help the institution." The Natives took the matter up, and agreed to do so. But, as I said before, it was never contemplated that Europeans and Maoris would work together in the harmonious way in which they are doing at Te Aute. 27. Do you know whether there is any wish on the part of the Natives that their schools should be kept distinct from the European schools ?—They have complained sometimes about the Europeans coming there when they were wanting more room; but Ido not think there is any real objection to Europeans to a moderate extent. I think if they felt they were being edged out they would object very strongly. 28. Your opinion is that this really is a Native school? —Yes, it was always thought of as a Native school, just as St. Stephen's School, which, as I said yesterday, was conducted under Sir George Grey's eye. He visited it constantly, as did the Bishop also, and they knew the meaning of the grants. lam told they occasionally had an English boy at St. Stephen's, but nobody looks upon it as a school equally for Europeans and Maoris. 29. I suppose you agree that our European schools should be open to them if they choose to go?—I should hope so. 30. But they would like to have schools of their own? —Up to a certain standard they certainly would prefer it. There is an instance before the Commission of one of our scholars, Mr. Ngata, going in for higher education and into the English schools entirely. 31. With reference to the part of the endowment which was given by the Government, had that land been acquired by the Government from the Natives before it was granted?— Yes; it was part of the land purchased when the country was opened out. 32. Was the land given by the Natives given by any particular tribe? —Yes, it was given by the Natives at Te Aute. 33. What tribe was that? —The Ngatiwhatuiapiti. 34. Are you quite sure that the original cession by the Natives to the Government of the endowment'was by a deed in writing?— Yes. 35. You saw the deed yourself?—l saw the thing signed. 36. Do you remember who was the attesting witness? —I cannot remember. I think there was more than one deed. lam speaking from memory, and it was a thing I took no particular part in. 37. You say you walked round the boundaries of the Native grant with the chief? —Yes. 38. The original grant says 4,244 acres?— That was the Government grant. I did not walk that. I indicated the position that I thought was best. I only walked the Maori grant. 39. You stated yesterday that 244 acres of this piece was given by the Natives?— Yes. The Ngatiwhatuiapiti said, " The dry land we give to you, and the wet [the lake] we reserve." 40. What I want to be clear about in regard to this grant of 4,244 acres is this: You say the 4,000 acres were given by the Government, and the 244 acres were given by the Natives?— Yes. 41. Does the Native grant that you walked refer to the 1,745 acres? —Yes. Whether the line is in every respect exactly on the points pointed out to me I cannot say. I was not here when it was surveyed. 42. At the time this grant was issued it was not actually surveyed? —Not when the land was discussed. 43. So the actual boundaries were afterwards ascertained by survey, and the acreage might be somewhat diminished or increased accordingly? —It is right, I think. I have not heard any complaints for forty years or more. 44. With reference to this grant of 1,408 acres [Exhibit No. s], that area was granted by the Natives, and this portion of 870 acres was afterwards reconveyed to the Crown, and the piece of land to the south of the reserve, containing 382 acres, was given in exchange?— Yes; but the original grant was for the Maori race, and the exchange was given for both races. It was an arbitrary act on the part of the Commissioner. He admitted he did it, and he said it was because the boundary had been altered and the Natives had given trouble. I told him I had been carefully over it when it was pointed out by the Natives, and that I went over it after the survey was made by the surveyor. I took the surveyor round, and I pointed out to him sometimes a stone and sometimes a tree. I asked him, " You remember me pointing that out to you?" " Yes." " And you remember that point?" "Yes." " And you remember that point ?"' "Yes." I asked him then, "How comes it that the boundaries are away from these points?" He made some excuse, and he said it was near enough for practical purposes. I said that was all very well; but I once asked the Chief Land Surveyor, " Have you ever known a single instance where a Maori has changed the boundary - line?" He thought for some time, and he said, "No." I replied, " Neither have I. I have had plenty of difficulties to unravel between you people and the Maoris, and I say I never once knew a Maori to alter a boundary-line." However, the excuse made was that the Maoris objected, and also, with a view to making it as widely applicable as possible, the intention of the grant was altered. I think you will find that in previous inquiries I pointed that matter out. If anything could be done by the Commission to rectify that I think it would be an act of justice to the Maoris. 45. I suppose the adjoining land has since been Crown-granted, and is now in private hands? Since then it has. We conveyed it to the Crown, and they had it in their own hands to deal with. But the application of the trust could be changed. 46. Among the deeds there is an agreement between Mr. Stokes and the trustees with reference to a boundary-fence?— Yes. 47. Is this the agreement Mr. Stokes signed?— Yes [Exhibit No. 24]. 48. Is that boundary-fence still adhered to?— Yes. Bishop Abraham, one of the trustees, was with me when I went over the land with Mr. Stokes. 49. Mr. Hogg.] Who controls the system of education at Te Aute: is it the trustees or yourself? —On any question of importance we consult the trustees, otherwise it has generally been left in