Q.—6.

22

[s. WILLIAMS.

can help us out of the difficulty." 1 said, "I do not hesitate to say it was a free gift to myself, and I directed it should be conveyed to the.Crown in order that it might be Crown-granted to the Bishop of New Zealand for educational purposes." Then Wi Tako said, "That is as I understood it. Now we find Mr. Williams in the position of a man who has had a valuable horse presented to him. He allows that horse to fall into other hands, and then, forsooth, when Mr. Williams wants to ride it, he is charged horse-hire for his own horse. Here we find Mr. Williams paying rent for the land that was given to himself." That answer was not recorded at the time. I was younger then that I am now, or I should have asked Sir John Richardson to allow it to be recorded. After we went out of the room the Natives were there, and they were laughing at Wi Tako at having allowed himself to be made a fool of by the Europeans. 22. Have the trustees taken an interest in the management of the estate and school generally? —They visit it periodically. In the days of the old trustees Mr. Robert Stokes visited it regularly, and I think Mr. Hunter went over it once. They always expressed themselves perfectly satisfied with everything done. 23. Did you confer with the trustees from time to time on any matters of importance relating to the trust ?—Certainly, always, as I do here now with the present trustees. 24. Is there anything you can think of that you would like to bring before us?—l cannot think of anything else. 25. Would you mind stating again your opinion as to the joint education of the two races: Whether in your opinion it is satisf actorj', and can be done with satisfaction to both races I —ln a school carried on as Te Aute has been carried on, we find them work harmoniously together. We have had no trouble in that way. But for years, and at the time these grants were made, such a state of affairs was looked upon as impossible; and, as the Bishop told me, he looked upon it that it might be possible in the case of the children of poor people who were living amongst the Maoris. The idea in amalgamating the school was to go beyond that. We thought there might be people who would not mind their children being educated with the Maoris. It was never contemplated that there should be a school as we have it now at Te Aute College. In fact, one leading Church Missionary man, who had spent his life almost amongst the Maoris, and had worked with them, and who had an educational establishment of his own, told me it was impossible. I met him at Dunedin, and he said, "Itis a waste of time to attempt it, Williams. You cannot do anything with it." I replied, " You do not know anything about it. I think you are talking about a subject you do not understand." " Oh," he said, "it is a waste of time." I said to him, " You are coming up to the Wairarapa on your way home. Just CQme on by the coach and see the school for yourself." When he arrived he asked to be allowed to ask a few questions. This was just shortly after Mr. Thornton had joined. I said, "Do not sound the words at all; just put them on the blackboard." Mr. Thornton wrote the word that the Archdeacon proposed, and the boy said it out distinctly. He winked at me, and he tried again and again and again. Then he said, "I would like to ask a few questions on grammar. Well, now boys, supposing I were to say, ' The baker has risen the price of bread,' would that be right?' " " No," said the boys. " What ought it to be, then?" They replied, " The baker Las raised the price of bread "; and he winked at me again. He went on and asked them questions in geography, and so on, and he came out and said, " Well, .Williams, I withdraw all my remarks. I xever expected to see it, and I admit this is the best Maori school 1 ever entered." I was careful with the masters. I had a very good master before; but as Mr. Thornton is present Ido not wish to express my opinion; but 1 say this to the Commission, that I feel exceedingly grateful to Mr. Thornton for the valuable assistance he has given me, and for lifting a heavy burden off my own shoulders. I might say also that Ido not think anything has happened in New Zealand that has done more to break down the barrier between the two races than the education of these young people, at Te Aute and at Hukarere, with the addition of St. Stephen's at Auckland. We teach them always to be respectful to Europeans, and I believe they are all respected in the community of Napier generally. 26. I notice in the Appendix to 1862, and right up to date, that the heading in reference to this trust is, "Native School Report on Te Aute. Native Industrial School." Now, in your opinion, apart altogether from the language of the trusts, do you think that the Europeans have any real claim to participate in the advantages of education which this trust provides?—My own feeling is that the English, with all the assistance they get, ought to show a generous spirit and allow the Natives to have their own single school for the higher education of themselves. I have always felt sorry when I saw any attempt at all to snatch from the Maoris the benefits of this institution. As I have said, it was never entertained for a moment in the olden days. I never knew there was any distinction in the language of the trusts until years afterwards. It was given to me for the Maoris; and Sir George Grey, in his conversation with the Maoris, represented me as the taniwha who inhabited a hole in Ruataniwha. The taniwha was a sort of dragon, and Sir George catechised the Natives about it. "Who caught the dragon?" They said, "Tars* of Roto-a-tara," which was his headquarters. "How did he manage it?" "Well," they replied, "the different tribes were all bent on catching the taniwha. Some of them went chasing him all over the country; some of them laid an ambush for him, but Tara said, ' that is not the bait to use. You will never catch the taniwha that way.' What did Tara. do? He laid a trap in which he put a variety of bait. He got fish, eels, birds, rats, and all sorts of delicacies for this taniwha. The taniwha kept shy for a long time, but at last he got into the trap, took the bait, and so Tara caught the taniwha. Well, Williams is the taniwha. There are applications from different parts of the country for Williams. The Ngatiraukawa, the West Coast, and the Poverty Bay Natives want him, and you people want him. Well, it is no use running after him, and it is no use asking him to come here unless you give him a good bail Now, his taste runs in education. If you will give half the bait I will give the other half." I may remark that the Natives had previously engaged to give whatever land was necessary if I would come. " Then," he said, " I will give 4,000 acres