G.—s.

S. WILLIAMS.]

21

11. That building and the school building proper and the chapel are the only buildings you have nothing to do with? —Yes. 12. All the other buildings you claim as your buildings?— Yes. Mr. Cotterill looked upon it as only a shadow to show he recognised my claim. He said there was no chance of the trustees giving me anything; and I may say I never expected to get anything. 13. Was your power of attorney, except by the death of the trustees, ever revoked in any way? —No. 14. And you continue to act under it?— Yes. 15. It is the foundation of your authority as agent for the trustees? —Yes. 16. You remember the first inquiry made by the Government in 1862? —Yes. The report was presented by Mr. Henry Russell, of Waipukurau, who was a member of the Legislative Council [Exhibit No. 23]. 17. That was a general report on the position of the trust and the school, together with certain accounts, up to the end of 1861 ?—Yes. 18. Do you wish to say anything in regard to that report?—No, I think it is fairly correct. There was something said about a banking account not being kept. I may say that I was advancing the whole of the money for the carrying-on, not only of the estate, but of the school, and a sort of what you might call a merchant's account was kept, where the interest was worked out. Instead of paying the money into a bank to lie idle it was worked on the principle of a merchant's account, in order to economize interest. But for some years a banking account has been kept, into which all funds have been paid, whether for rent or any other purpose, and that is operated on as a banking account for the Te Aute School proper. It is operated on by myself, and by Mr. Thornton under authority from myself. The question has been raised about cutting up the estate and letting it in small sections. I have always been open to facilitate any arrangement of that kind that the trustees might think proper to adopt. It has been asked for in the House, and I said I would raise no difficulty in the way. When the leases were renewed here, Mr. Cotterill was the gentleman, I think, I spoke to. I said, "If there is the least wish to let the property in sections do not let me stand in your way. lam prepared to withdraw in favour of any new proposal you wish to make." 19. I suppose your wish is still that the school should have the maximum benefit out of the endowment? —Yes, certainly. Something was said about letting the land for fourteen years in small sections. I may say Ido not know any person who would accept a lease for fourteen years when he would have to make accommodation for his family, possibly. The Government have never contemplated such a lease. They would have to let the land on longer leases to enable the tenants to get any benefit from it. I must say that even when letting it as a whole I could not meet anybody who would look at a lease. Everybody was bent on getting a freehold. They passed this by. They saw they could pick up Government land. They could, to use a colonial phrase, pick the eyes out of it and gridiron it by paying £d. an acre for the land, which was the Government charge in Hawke's Bay. There was no person in the whole district who would have looked at the Te Aute property. I leave the question of the Hukarere gifts to Mr. Fielder. He mentioned that he believed there were other moneys that had been paid by myself. I may say I got tired of riding dead horses. I thought I would give this school a live one, and I made a free gift of the money in order to give the ladies—who were giving up their time to the school—every facility for carrying on their work with comfort. With regard to my being placed in the position in which I find myself before this Commission, I referred to the fact of Sir George Grey wishing me to go to Hawke's Bay in order to secure the peace of the country, and perhaps I might be allowed to say that I have the satisfaction of knowing I have been the means of saving an immense amount of bloodshed between the races. On one occasion I might refer to, I rode forty miles and came in and warned the authorities in Napier, pointing out that a plot was being laid for an attack on Napier. I came in and insisted —perhaps beyond my authority—upon the forces being turned out to go and surround these people before daylight. Facts came into my possession on the following morning to show that it was the intention of these people to have attacked Napier upon the following night; and had the intention of the authorities to defer any movement until the following evening been adhered to, the whole of our forces would have been out in the country at the very time these Nativesjdanned to be in Napier. There are very few people in Napier—perhaps hardly one at the present day—who quite realise the danger they were in at that time. Even Sir Donald McLean told me, after the massacre in Poverty Bay, that he only then realised the danger they were in. I feel I have done my best to serve my country, and at the same time to carry out my duty as a clergyman. This occurrence took place in October, 1866, at Omarunui. 20. You knew the Natives up here intimately, and you were on good terms with them? —Yes. 21. And j'ou were in a position to gauge their minds and feelings when this cession was made to the Crown: Will you say again what was it that really influenced the Natives in giving that land?— What influenced them undoubtedly was the fact that they wanted to get me to come here for their benefit. You put that question to me. You will find that on one occasion Wi Tako was put forward to move an inquiry in the House about the Te Aute trust. The Natives had no idea at all that an inquiry was to be held. As one of the Native members of the House told me, it was done by the Europeans, and Wi Tako, as mover of the resolution, was present at the inquiry. Sir John Richardson, after asking other questions, saw Wi Tako at the lower end of the room, and he asked him if he had any questions to put. His answer is not recorded in the House, but I will give it to the Commission. Wi Tako had his interpreter, and he was asked, " Have you any inquiry to make?" He said, " Yes, I wish to ask what object the Natives had in view when they gave this land." The reply was made by one of the members of the Committee: "It was given to the Bishop of New Zealand for educational purposes." Wi Tako replied, "Yes, that is very likely the opinion that is running in the minds of Europeans. I want to .know what the Maoris' view was on the subject." Sir John Richardson asked me for a reply. He said, "Perhaps you