E.—3b

70

35. How many have you now, apart from the wash-house ?—Only one; 36. Can you supply a dozen baths with hot water?— When the new range is erected we' carl make provision. We could not do it at present. 37. It has been stated that when the boy Skilton was confined in the cell the Education Department had forwarded a communication stating that the boy would be transferred to Burnham when arrangements had been made there for receiving such cases ?—Yes. 38. Are you aware of any reason why it should have been expected that a boy like Skilton could be controlled better at Burnham than at Stoke ?—I am not aware of any reason but that the Judge had recommended that the boy should be sent there. 39. Are you aware that Burnham at that time had no stronger staff than Stoke had, and that it had no greater powers in this respect in exercising discipline than you have ?—No. 40. Can you tell me how often the Manager has visited Stoke during the last two years— roughly, of course. I suppose between twenty-five and thirty times —perhaps more. 41. Mr. WardelL] Has he made the visits at stated intervals ?—No ; All in all he comes on an average once a fortnight. 42. Mr. Bush.] Do you keep a record of his visits?— No. 43. Mr. Hogben.] Have you ever shown him the cells?—l have not. 44. Did you consider it necessary to inform the Manager of the punishments that were administered ?—No ; I did not. Of course, I admit now I was in error. 45. You did not think it necessary to inform him of the existence of the cells?—lt never occurred to me to do so. 46. Mr. Wardell (to Mr. Hogben).] On behalf of the Education Department, do you consider the existence of the cells improper ?—No; not the mere existence of them. 47. Mr. Hogben (to Brother Loetus).] As far as the view you took went, you did not think it necessary to inform the Manager of the mode of punishment ? Did you think the question of punishments outside the duties of the Manager?—l never thought about it. 48. Mr. Bush.] Suppose Dean Mahoney objected to your caning boys on the hand, and insisted on flogging on the body, would you have done so ?—Yes ; I would. 49. Was Dean Mahoney at the Orphanage at any times that the boys were in the cells ?—Yes ; several times. I could not say how many times. 50. And you did not tell him so?— No. 51. Did you never mention any of the confinements to him ?—No ; never. 52. When the boys in the cells went to Mass, did they go with the other boys or by themselves ? By themselves, in charge of one of the Brothers. They sat behind the other boys, on the last seat; but not apart from the other boys. 53. Was there anything to indicate to those holding service that these boys were in a different position from the other boys ?—No. 54. Did you not think it necessary that the boys confined in the cells should have a special interview with the priests, for the purpose of a lecture, or anything ?—On confession-day, once a month, they would go with the other boys. 55. You say the boys in the cells were visited four times a day by the Brothers ?—Yes; at meals and at bed-time. 56. On our visit to the school the other day, did you not tell us that the lower cell was in exactly the same condition, except for a desk in the corner, as it was in when the boys were confined there ? —I said so; but I did not think of the window at the time. 57. When we saw the window it was just like that [pointing to a window in the room] ?—Yes; I did not refer to the window at all. 58. Did you tell us that the window had been broken, and that it was on account of a broken pane boarded up ? —No. 59. You omitted to tell us that the window had been boarded up for the use of the room as a cell ?—I forgot to mention it. 60. We came away with the impression that the window was simply glass ?—lt was altogether my forgetfulness in not mentioning it. 61. You made no reference at all to the boarding of the window?— No. 62. You said yesterday that a boy named Willis had escaped from this cell. Was that through the spaces between the boarding?— Yes. One space was larger than the other. 63. How big was that boy?— Very small. He has a very flat head. 64. Did any Brother express disapproval at any time of the system of confinement in cells, and say it was a pity the school could not be conducted without it ?—Some may have shown a dislike to it and expressed a wish that it should not be. 65. Was Brother Augustine one of these ?—No. He did not express any opinion to me. 66. You read some accounts yesterday. Would there be any difficulty in getting the books ? —No; I can get them. , 67. I understand that your Order is sworn to poverty, and consequently is always subject to a certain amount of deprivation. Do you not think that people who live under this rule for a certain number of years are likely to carry it throughout their 'lives amongst their surroundings, and expect others under their charge to put up with the same privations ?—I do not think so. Every precaution is taken against extremes. 68. Mr. Harley.] You told us yesterday that 561b. of meat was put daily into the stew?— Sometimes, and sometimes not. I gave it as an average weight. 69. The boy Lane said that the bones and all were put into the stew. Did the 56 lb. include b ones ? yes; the bones were generally put in. Sometimes the weight was more than 561b. 70. Was that stew made principally from the fore part of the sheep, with the hind legs cut off first?— The two hind legs were generally cut off., f