69

E.—3b

7. Suppose a case should arise concerning the internal management of the school—not affecting the life of the Brothers—in which the regulations of the Order were contrary to the directions of the Manager, which would you feel bound to obey ?—The Manager. The Superior only directs the inner life of the Brothers. 8. Cases have arisen in the Government Industrial Schools in which it has been found necessary to summarily dismiss an assistant. Supposing such a case were to occur at Stoke, would you have the power of summary dismissal?— Dean Mahoney, as Manager, would have power of dismissal for bad conduct; but in other cases he would only have the power of suspension. 9. You remember the Inspector, Mr. Thompson, paying a visit to the school on 16th October last ?—I do remember the visit; but not the date. 10. You remember driving out with him on the 20th October ?—Yes. 11. Do you remember his asking a question as to whether solitary cenfinement as a means of punishment existed in your school ?—I do not remember it. 12. Supposing Mr. Thompson, in the box, were to say that he did ask you that question, would you be prepared to contradict him ?—I should say that I had not the least recollection. 13. Have you any recollection whether you told him, or whether you did not tell him, that there was solitary confinement at the school?—I have not the least recollection of the question being asked. 14. Do you remember showing Mr. Thompson the cell downstairs on 16th October?—l do not remember having shown him the cell, and I do not believe I did. 15. If he said you did, would you be justified in saying he was mistaken ?—I would be justified in saying I had not the least recollection of anything being said. 16. If Mr. Thompson were to say that you assured him on the 20th October that there was no solitary confinement, would you feel justified in saying that his recollection was mistaken ?—Yes; as far as my recollection goes. 17. Mr. Wardell.] Solitary confinement for a limited period is legalised under the Act. Taking it in that sense, have you any recollection of the subject being mentioned ?—None whatever. 18. Mr. Hogben.] Do you recollect any conversation about punishments on that occasion ? No. 19. You know these regulations as to punishments in Government industrial schools, gazetted on 14th October, 1895 ?—I saw a copy in the hands of Dean Mahoney a few weeks ago. 20. Mr. Wardell.} Is that the first copy you have seen ?—I had seen one once before, but I do not remember paying the least attention to it. 21. Mr. Hogben.] Do you remember a visit from Sir Edward Gibbes, of the Education Department, to the school on 27th July, 1896 ?—Yes. 22. Do you remember a conversation with him as to punishments?—No ; I did not see him in private at all. He was with Dean Mahoney when I saw him. Ido not remember anything being said about punishments between us. 23. Have you anything to help you to say if this is correct: Sir Edward Gibbes, who was officially authorised to make that visit, in his report on the' school on that occasion, said : " The authorities say that absolutely no corporal punishment is given. They consider that the regulations issued last year respecting punishment in Government industrial schools applied to all schools, and therefore they abolished all corporal punishment. Nevertheless, they regret having done so, as the present consequences of running away are not a sufficient deterrent." Now, did Sir Edward Gibbes, in that report, go beyond the facts ?—I could not suppose such a thing. At the same time I must say that I have not the least recollection. If corporal punishment were mentioned, it would mean flogging. 24. Mr. Wardell] You are asked whether the statement goes beyond facts. What is your answer ?—I do not suppose he would go beyond facts ; but I have not the least recollection of the conversation. 25. Mr. Hogben.] Supposing Sir Edward Gibbes were prepared to give evidence that he recollects your making these statements, would you be prepared to say that he is wrong ? I could only say that I have not the least recollection. 26. Have you any recollection of the subject of a record of punishments being mentioned either between Mr. Thompson and yourself, or between Sir Edward Gibbes and yourself?—No; I have no recollection. 27. You do not recollect, for instance, being asked by Mr. Thompson why you did not keep a record or a register of punishments ?—No. 28. Mr. Bush.] Have you a bad memory ?—I have rather a bad memory. I cannot remember dates at all. 29. Mr. Hogben.] You remember my visit on 25th June, and showing me the accommodation for baths?— Yes. 30. Did you not tell me then that the boys could have hot baths regularly in the washtubs outside ?—Yes ; they had commenced having them. It is our present practice. 31. Mr. Wardell.] When you said they could have them, were you referring to the past or to the future?—To the present and the future. They had them already. 32. Mr. Hogben.] When did the practice begin ?—A fortnight or three weeks before—after the visit of the Charitable Aid Board. 33. Do you think it desirable the boys should have hot baths in winter at least once a week ? ■ —I think it very desirable. 34. Can you form any idea of the number of baths required for 125 boys?—At least a dozen.