91

Or.— 2

257. You are aware that Kemp, at the sitting of the Supreme Court in Wanganui, in September, 1894, executed to me a mortgage over the whole of this block, subject to the leases, to secure repayment of £500, handed over to Mr. Edwards, their lawyer?— Yes ; we heard of that. 258. Were you in Wanganui when the transaction was inquired into, in open Court, by Judge Ward, of the Native Land Court ?—I was not there. 259. Did you hear that the mortgage was passed by Judge Ward, after being enquired into ? —No. 260. Did you ever hear of any member of Muaupoko objecting to what Kemp was doing in mortgaging the land?— No. 261. If they had been objecting, you would have heard?— Yes; I should have heard, and would have mentioned it. 262. You have heard a great deal about the rents received by Kemp from Hector McDonald : has not Kemp paid large amounts to the tribe from them from time to time ?—Yes ; he has paid several sums from time to time ; but formerly, we used all to draw the rent direct from Hector, by writing to him first. 263. Do you remember my coming to Horowhenua in October, 1892, and bringing a deed relating to these rents and other matters to be signed by members of the Muaapoko ? —Yes. 264. Do you remember that this deed, which I asked you to sign, related to all the transactions about the land and the rents, and that I explained that your signing would mean that you approved of everything that had been done ?—Yes. 265. Was not that deed signed by the old chief Ihaia Taueki and some sixty others?— Yes; we all signed it. 266. Did anybody, except Hoani Puhi and a few of the Ngatipariri, neglect to sign ?—No. 267. Did they sign willingly, and without compulsion ?—You explained the terms of the documents, and we were all quite clear about it. 268. Was Kemp there or not ?—No. 269. Did Kemp ask you to sign at any previous time, or was it only myself ? —No; it was you. . 27.0. Did not that deed, signed by ihaia and sixty others, confirm to Kemp alone, inter alia, No. 14 absolutely in his own right ?—Yes; it was so. 271. Did any member of the Muaupoko object and say, " That is not right; it must come back to us " ?—No ; I heard nothing of the kind. 272. You know pretty well what amounts Kemp has received from Hector McDonald during the past years ? —I do not know the total amount. 273. In your opinion, has Kemp made a fair distribution of those rents among the people during past years? —Yes. 274. Can you remember some big sums given to the tribe either by Hector or Kemp ? —I know of a large sum paid by Kemp to us ; £1,000 was paid to Makere ; it was given to her to distribute to myself, and Kerehi, Eaniera, and herself. We brought it from Wanganui. 275. Do you remember any other sum ?—I remember another time we got £200, and another time £100, and another time £200. 276. Has not Kemp very often paid the debts of the tribe, and kept them right ? —lt may be so ; he did not tell me what he did or did not pay. 277. But you are quite satisfied with what he has done ?—Yes. 278. You have heard about the sale of part of No. 11 to the Government by Warena—l,soo acres for £6,000 ?—Yes. 279. —Did Warena consult you about that intended sale ? —No. 280. So far as you know, did Warena consult any of the Muaupoko about that proposed sale?—l do not know of any Muaupoko whom he consulted; if he had, it would probably have reached us. 281. When did you first hear that 1,500 acres had been sold by Warena to the Government —part of your tribal estate ?—We did not hear of it till the survey and felling of the bush began. 282. We have been told that Mr. McKenzie, the Minister, and others, representing the Government, came up, and that they met Hoani Puihi on the ground, and that there were none of the Muaupoko objecting ?—Hoani was the only person that saw them. 283. You never heard they were coining? —No; the Muaupoko generally did not know. 284. When you did know of it, and heard that the surveyors were on the ground, what did you do ?—When we heard of the surveyors being there, our women and children went to obstruct the proceedings. The Premier sent the police to take them prisoners. He had heard that they were obstructing the survey, and sent a message to us that the chiefs should go to Wellington. He sent money to pay our passage by the train. 285. Who went? —I and Waiata and Eaniera went, and we took with us John McDonald. 286. Did you meet the Premier in Wellington ? —All the people heard that we had been taken prisoners by the Premier. 287. He treated you very well? He did not put you in prison?—No he did not; we went with the Chief of the Police ; he treated us very ill. 288. Then what took place?—l arrived in Wellington, and went to Mr. Edwards—you were in England —I went to Mr. Edwards for him to take me to the presence of the Premier. When I arrived in the presence of the Premier, I stood up before him, and spoke to him about this bad law that was brought in amongst us: "These two persons were appointed by us as kaitiakis of this land ; one of them agrees he is a caretaker, the other says, Ido not care, lam an owner. This land belongs to me and my tribe." The Premier answered, " You have no land ; you are in the hands of the clouds.'' '' Am I a spirit that I should live in the clouds "? I said to the Premier. '' Soften the law relating to this land." The Premier said, " Speak lower; lam not deaf." Then 1 knew he was