G—2

90

223. What did your tribe decide to do with this big block, when they were making all these subdivisions ?—lt was agreed that this block should be allotted or apportioned for the persons who had actual occupation of it; that it should be left alone; and that it should be for them to say whether it should be divided or left in one block for the persons who had led the Natives in ancient years and those who represent them. 224. As distinguished from whom ?—The persons who had got lands in different places, and who had been provided for. 225. Was it, so far as you know, distinctly understood by all your people that this block would be reserved for the residential section of the tribe ? —That was what Kemp said. 226. Did the whole tribe agree in this ?—Yes ; we all consented : some expressed their content with the arrangement, and others remained silent, but were satisfied. I did not hear one dissentient voice. 227. Was that at the various meetings before you went into Court ?—Yes. 228. Were you going to put all the names of the residents into the residential section or not ? —We agreed it should be given to Kemp, to take care of. 229. Why ?—Because we thought, if it was allotted to the tribe, we would proceed to have it allotted and sold, and it-would be parted with and gone. 230. Was that your thought only, or was it generally stated at your meeting ?—lt was our great talk. 231. Everybody agreed, so far as you could hear?— Yes; we thought there would be no trouble afterwards. 232. Was any other name mentioned with Kemp's outside, before you went into Court?— No. 233. Did any one claim to go in also ?—ln the Court, I did ; not before. 234. What happened when you got into Court, after this arrangement had been come to outside ?—When we arrived in Court, Kemp said, " Well, let it be sufficient that I have divided the other parts of this block ; let the balance be now returned to Ihaia Taueki to divide. 235. Was this in the Court, or after they had gone into the room, of which we have heard?— It was in the Court, and said in order that we might hear it. 236. Well, what then?—lt was then that McDonald and Wirihana wrote a paper and passed it over to Kemp, with the name of Warena on it; then we learned that Wirihana contended that both Warena's and Kemp's name should be put in as kaitiakis. 237. Kemp told us that he asked the Court to give him No. 11, and that then the paper was put in front of him : now, you have been saying that he asked to have it given to Ihaia ?—Kemp stood up in the Court and said : " Let it be sufficient that I have divided all the other parts of the block ; let this remainder (No. 11) be handed to Ihaia to divide." 238. You have said that, at the meeting, you all agreed that No. 11 should go in Kemp's name, as caretaker ?—lt had not been agreed outside that Kemp was to be caretaker, but in the Court Kemp stood up and said this. 239. Did he ask the Court to put Ihaia's name in the order or his own name ?—No ; he did not apply to the Court to put it into his or anybody's name. He was talking to us, and then this paper was thrust forward by Wirihana. 240.-Do you know what was in the paper? —What was written on the paper was, "Let Warena's name be inserted as co-caretaker with Kemp." Kemp then called us into a small room. Myself, Wirihana, Ngatahi, Te Kiri, Kemp, Makere, and a lot of people went into a very small room, and then it was discussed whether Warena's name should be put in as joint caretaker with Kemp. We objected to the name of Warena. Then Kemp suggested Ihaia, and Te Kiri said, " Let it be Kemp." Ngatahi said, " What objection have you to the old man" ? meaning Ihaia. Kemp then considered we were confused, and said, " Well, let Warena go in; he is a good young man." 241. Did you agree?—No ; we did not agree; we went right out of the Court. 242. Why did it offend you so much when Kemp wanted it put in ?—Look at the result. 243. You did not stay and hear what Kemp said to the Court ?—No; all we heard was that Kemp had agreed to put in Warena as joint caretaker. 244. Did you hear afterwards that the Court had made an order accordingly ?—We did not hear anything after that; we thought they were to be joint trustees. 245. There has been a great deal of trouble since ?—lt was in 1890 that we learned there was going to be trouble. 246. How did you learn?—lt was taken to the Court. 247. Was it then you first learned the land belonged to these two chiefs, according to law? ■ Yes. 248. Did you then take active part with Kemp in the petitions to Parliament, and in prosecuting an action in the Supreme Court, to get back your rights in No. 11 ?—Yes ; and now there is this fresh investigation. We thought it was finished at that time. 249. Are you aware that Block 14 is, for the most part, leased to me by Kemp?—Yes; that is to say, you have part of the land, and Mr. Bartholomew has another part. 250. Have you ever disapproved of the leases to myself and Mr. Bartholomew ?—No. 251. Have you ever heard of any member of Muaupoko objecting to them ?—No. 252. Have you ever heard of any member of the tribe demanding a share of the rent from Kemp ?—No. 253. Or of the price of the timber leased to Bartholomew ?—No. 254. You have heard that Kemp sold two small pieces to myself for £100?— Yes. 255. Did you ever hear of any member of the Muaupoko objecting to this?— No. 256. Did you ever hear of any member demanding any part of the £100 ?—No; if anybody had done so, they would have gone to you.