G.—2

52

117. Mr. Stevens.] For how many years was it leased?— The lease commenced, I think, about 1890. 118. How many year's rent was paid by Bartholomew to Kemp?—l think he paid two years' rent. 119. Did you or your brother receive any portion of this rent ? —No. 120. Did the Ngatipariri receive any of it ? —I never heard of it. 121. There were 100 acres of land, was there not, given by the consent of the people to Whatanui's people ? —Yes. 122. Was it not afterwards arranged between the Muaupoko and Sir D. McLean that 1,200 acres should be given to satisfy the claim of the Ngatiraukawa ?—Yes. 123. Was that land put under the name of Kemp only, so as to facilitate the transfer to the Ngatiraukawa ?—Yes. 124. When this land was offered to Ngatiraukawa, did they accept or refuse it ?—They were discontented about it. They heard outside that this was the piece of land that was going to be given to them, and they were not satisfied. 125. You say there was a subdivision of 1,200 acres set aside, and they declined to accept it ? — Yes. Then another piece was offered to them in another block, because they thought they would like to go up there. Then it was thought by Kemp and others that they would prefer to have the land in another block, near their own subdivisions of 100 acres; then they chose the other piece. They chose the piece at Eaumatangi; then, after some time, the Government consented to give them that piece. 126. What became of the other 1,200 acres? —That still remained in Kemp's name. 127. Are you agreeable, then, to allow that to remain in Kemp's name, or does the land belong to you and the people?—lt ought not to be under Kemp's name any longer; it should be given to the people who are entitled to it. 128. Did you agree at the Palmerston meeting that this land was to be given to Kemp in his own right?—No; we gave it to him in his name, not for himself, but to be given to the Ngatiraukawa. 129. Sir W. Butter.] You were in the Court in 1873: did you take any part in the proceedings, or were you there as a spectator ?—I am not a man who holds forth :my work there was to procure food, and sometimes I would go to listen to what would be said at some of the committees. 130. You have given us a substantial account of what Te Hakeke said in Court, objecting to Kemp being the only certificated owner. I am going to put some older Natives in the box to contradict you. Are you stating this from your own knowledge, or from what you have heard ?—lt was not told to me. I heard Kawana say that with my own ears; I was present. 131. What did you hear with your own ears in Court?—l have already stated what I heard. 132. Where was the list of 143 names settled—in Court or in your tents?—l heard the list was first prepared in the tent, and not before the Court. 133. Did you take any part yourself ?—No ; it was written surreptitiously in the tent. 134. Was your father present in the tent when this list was settled ? —No. 135. Can you explain how, if your father was so great a man at these proceedings, a list of this kind could be prepared without his being consulted ? —I have stated before that this list was written surreptitiously. 136. When did your father first hear this list of names?— When they were read out in Court. 137. Who read the names out in Court ?—The Court themselves read the names. 138. Were you in Court?— Yes. 138 a. Who handed the names in in order that the Court might read them out ?—Kemp. 139. The Muaupoko were there ?—A few of them were—a very few; the main body had returned to Horowhenua. 140. Kawana was present ? —Yes ; and all the Ngatiapa. 141. What did Kawana say to the Court?— The Court found fault with Kemp, and said, "This land should not be in your name alone." Kemp said, " Very well; then put Kawana's name along with mine." 142. Why was that not done ? —Kawana was so very much startled at Kemp's action that he was very angry. The first time he heard of it was in Court, and he was very angry, and said that Kemp ought to have told him before he came into Court, so that they could both go over the list of names first. It was very deceitful work. 143. You say that Kawana declined to have his name put in, as proposed at that time by Kemp in Court ?—Yes; he went outside. 144. Did any one else speak in Court on that occasion ?—I do not know, for when Kawana left the Court I went after him, and the majority of the people left too. 145. You are perfectly clear that Kemp offered to put Kawana's name in with his?— Yes; Kemp said to the Court, " Very well; then let Hunia's name come in along with mine, and both our names be in." But Hunia said he would not agree to it. 146. When did you discover, or hear, that this list had been fixed with Kemp's name alone in the certificate ?—Some time afterwards. 147. At the sitting of this Court, or afterwards?— After this Court. I always knew the thing was in Kemp's name only. 148. Did your father accept the position or take steps to have it altered ?—I think there is a pile of papers, about 2ft. high,|about this matter in possession of the Government, to have a Court to divide up the Horowhenua. 149. Did your father take any steps to have the certificate altered?— 150. You take to yourself the credit of having arranged that the royalties from Mr. Bartholomew, coming out of No. 6, should go into a trust account ? —Yes; I arranged that.