G.—2

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151. Are you not aware that Kemp proposed a trust? —No; I saw the lease drawn out between him and Bartholomew, to the effect that the moneys were to be paid to Kemp in Wanganui. 152. Are you aware that Kemp signed a deed providing that the royalties should be paid into a trust account in the joint names of himself, Mr. Marshall, and Mr. Edwards, solicitor for Mr. Bartholomew ? —I have never seen it; Ido not know. Mr. Marshall asked me some time ago to sign a paper to withdraw the moneys paid into the bank here, and that they should be paid into a trust account in Wanganui. 153. You told us of a flax-mill lease, and the names of those associated with Kemp in this matter. Was not Noa te Whata one of them ?—Perhaps; I only heard it; I did not gee it. 154. With regard to the 1,200 acres held by Kemp at Papaitonga, you say it ought to be returned to the tribe ?—Yes ; to give it back to the people who are entitled to it. 155. Are you aware that Kemp has held a Crown grant over it for ten years ?—Yes ; I know the land was vested in him to give to the decendants of Te Whatanui. 156. Are you not aware that Kemp has been dealing with the whole of this land ? —Yes; I have heard so. 157. Have you ever taken any steps to protest against these dealings by Kemp with this land? —No. 158. Have you never lodged a caveat ? —I have seen several caveats, but I think not. 159. Have you ever protested against the leases that Kemp executed in regard to this land in favour of Mr. Bartholomew and myself ? —I am still disputing with Kemp about these things. Kemp and myself have been at loggerheads about the land for ten years ; but I am by myself and have no one to help me. 160. You have been fighting, you say; but Kemp has been in possession for ten years ?—Yes; and all that time I have known he held it wrongly. 161. Have you ever told the Government that he was holding it wrongly, and protested against his- dealing with it ?—No ; I have not. 162. You kept it in your heart all that time? —No ; but I have known inside my heart that it was wrong. 163. And now, for the first time, you tell us it was wrong ?—No; I see there is a chance opened by this Commission for me to say it is wrong, and I have come forward to say so. 164. But during the last ten years you have been attending the Land Court very often?— Yes; sometimes. 165. And you have always been present when Horowhenua matters have been before the Court? —Yes; I do not know how much money I have not spent before the Court. 166. If you have known all this time that Kemp was wrongly holding this land, why have you not said so to the Court ? Why have you kept it in your heart ?—I did not think there was any opening for me to make any complaint, considering no claims had been sent in about this. 167. You never made any complaint to the Government or to a Court during the last seven or eight years : have you ever made any complaint to Kemp or myself during that time ? —No; to my idea it is immaterial whether he has held the land for ten years, or for any number of years, more or less ; his holding it is wrong. 168. Why have you not told him so, if you knew he was doing wrong?—lt would be no use of my going to Kemp to talk about these things ; he would only turn away, and not listen, because we are still in dispute about No. 11. 169. Have you ever said to the tribe that Kemp was holding this land wrongfully all these years, or have you kept it in your heart all the time ? —I am constantly speaking to the Natives about Kemp's action. 170. Have you ever told the Muaupoko Tribe that, in your opinion, Kemp is holding this 1,200 acres wrongfully, and that it ought to be given back, or have you kept it in your own heart ?—I have done so. 171. Have you said so at any meeting of the tribe ? —I have told them on the occasions when some of them have died, and we have gone to pay our respects to the dead. I have taken advantage of those occasions to speak about this matter ; but have not had any set meeting about it where I could have spoken. These are the things that we are fighting over in connection with Muaupoko. Wherever any of the tribe dies, I am brought into contact with them. 172. You attended a meeting at Horowhenua, of which your brother told us, when proposals were made about a settlement : did you say anything about this then, or did you keep it in your heart ?—I did not speak about it. 173. Can you tell us if there has been any other meeting of the tribe where you said a word about Kemp wrongfully holding this land ? —There was no meeting called for that occasion. 174. When there were these funeral functions, you took advantage of them ?—Yes. 175. Mention one of these functions when you have told the tribe that there was something wrong in this ?—When Noa te Whata died I went to his funeral. 176. And you spoke about Horowhenua ? —Yes. 177. Did you then publish your opinion about Horowhenua? —Yes. 178. What did you say ?—I told them the land had been leased to you, and I asked them whether they had received any rents from Kemp's hands. The answer to that was, " Who knows what you two are doing " ? 179. Was that speech made on the marae? —Yes; on the speaking-ground. 180. All the Muaupoko being present ? —Yes; all the Muaupoko were present: some were talking here, and some talking there, and some cooking food.