50

G.—2

46. Who defended Hunia, and where was the case heard ? —It was heard at Wellington. 47 Do you remember how much money was paid to the solicitor for defending Hunia ?—I do not know. 48. Were you here at the time the shots were fired between Ngatiraukawa and Muaupoko?— The burning took place as it might be to-day, and I came up with ten men to-morrow. 49. During that time Kemp was not present, and took no part ? —No ; Kemp's action at that time went to show he had no connection or interest at all with Muaopoko Tribe. It was very different from the interest he is trying to show now. 50. After the sitting of the Court a subdivision was applied for : who applied for it ?—Kemp sent in an application for subdivision. 51. Was there not some difficulty as to an arrangement between Kemp and yourself, as represented by Warena, about your respective interests, and who was to have the greater portion of the land, after the subdivision had been applied for, down to the time the Court finished?— There was no difficulty at the time between myself and Kemp, or Kemp and Warena, at all about it before it was subdivided. 52. When did the trouble first arise ? —After 1886 there was trouble. 53. What was the cause of the trouble ? —The reason of the trouble was about the rentmoney. 54. Paid by whom to whom ?—The rent paid to Kemp by Hector McDonald. 55. How much was that? —£400 a year. The money was £1,600 in one year, because there were some years of back rent that had not been paid. 56. Did Kemp not pay you or your family any portion of that ?—No. 57. How many years' rent has he received altogether up to the present time ?—Kemp took the lease over in 1877 for fifteen years, at £400 a year. 58. You received no part of this rent up to now?—No; Kemp is taking the rent now. 59. So that makes £6,000 ?—Yes; about that. 60. That was one reason why there was a difference between yourself and Kemp, because he would not pay what you consider to be your share ?—Yes; that was one reason for the trouble. 61. Did you ever ask from Kemp any portion of the rent ? —Yes; I have. 62. What reason did he assign for not paying it ?—lt was his own idea that he would not pay it; he gave no reason. 63. After the subdivision there was an arrangement arrived at regarding the 4,000 acres to be sold to the Government as a township ?—Yes. 64. What are the circumstances in connection with this ? What was arranged between Kemp, yourself, and the people ?—lt was arranged that the block should be in Kemp's name for a certain purpose. First, he was to sell the land to the Government, by auction or in any way at all, and he was to keep one quarter-acre in every ten right throughout the block. The proceeds of the sale of this block were to go towards expenses of survey of the block; there are other conditions which will be seen in the document. 65. Did Kemp receive any money from the Government, and, if so, what became of it ?—He would best be able to explain that; he has it still; neither I nor the tribe have received any part of it. The Ngatipariri have not received any moneys from Kemp on that account, but I have. 67. How much did you receive?—l got £100 when I was in Wellington. Kemp said, " You will want some money to spend in town; you had better take this to spend yourself." 68. How much was the purchase-money of the 4,000 acres ?—£6,000. 69. What became of the tenths of which you spoke ?—That arrangement was not carried out. 70. Did Kemp get the reconveyance from the Government of the tenths ?—Kemp received from the Government £6,000, and he received at the time a deed stating that every quarter-acre in ten was to be reserved for the Natives, and also a paper showing the township, laid out like Palmerston, with a big square in the centre. 71. Then Kemp did receive from the Government a document restoring the tenths?— Yes. 72. Where are those tenths now?—l suppose the Government have taken them; Kemp has sold the whole to the Government. Up 73. But you say he received a document restoring to him the tenths?— Before the sale was made, a drawing of the township was laid out, with the quarter-acres shown, and also a square in the centre similar to Palmerston. When Kemp sold the land to the Government he sold the whole, and did not retain any acreage at all. 74. He had made a promise that he would retain one section in ten ?—Yes ; that was the arrangement made at Palmerston. There are, very likely, documents relating to that. 75. That was one condition upon which the Natives—you amongst others—handed this land over to Kemp in his own right ?—Yes. 76. The other condition was that the moneys to be received by him from the Government were to go towards paying the subdivisional survey of the whole block ?—Yes. 77. Has Kemp been asked to distribute the money, or whether he has paid the survey-fees, or has he been asked to return the tenths ?—Hoani Puihi asked about these sections. When the Court sat, he went before the Court about the claim, and the Court said, " There is no land to adjudicate upon; it has been sold by Kemp, and there is not a quarter of an acre left." All the people knew their case was hopeless, because the Government had purchased the land, and there was no use going to war with the Government. 78. So there would be 400 acres out of the land for which Kemp has never accounted ?—Yes. 79. Was there a considerable sum of money owing for the survey of the block ?—Yes; a great deal, because the block was cut up into 105-acre sections. Ido not know the amount. 80. The amount owing was for external boundaries and subdivisional survey ?—Yes. 81. To whom was the money owing for survey?—To the surveyor and to the Government.