39

G.-2

161. You remember the meeting when you made the proposals, and said, " I will give so much to Ngatipariri if the arrangement between Kemp and myself comes off" ?—Yes; it may have been after that meeting, or it may have been before. Donald Fraser would know. 162. Was Fraser, who you say was your mouthpiece, with you when you had this first talk with Mr. Cadman ? —Yes ; and Mr. J. G. Wilson. 163. Was Mr. Stevens there ?—No. 164. From whom did the proposal come—from you or the Government—that you should sell part of the land to them ? —lt came from me. 165. What took place ? What did you say to the Government, and what did the Government say to you ?—I told Fraser, my agent, what I was going to do about Horowhenua. 166. Did you suggest the sale, or did Fraser suggest it to you ?—No; it was my own desire. 167. Having made up your mind to sell part of the estate to the Government, you consulted Fraser, your agent ?—Yes ; after I decided to sell it, I informed Fraser. 168. He took you to Wellington to see the Minister ? —No; Fraser went first by himself. 169. But, in consequence of what Fraser said to you, you went down afterwards?— Yes; Fraser spoke to me about it, and I went with him. 170. Was that after the Horowhenua meeting?—l do not know; it was about the same time. 171. Did Fraser know at the time what you told us now about those people whom he was prepared to put in with him in certain events ?—Yes ; Fraser spoke about that in the Native Land Court. 172. In consequence of what Fraser told you, you accompanied him to Wellington, and saw Mr. Cadman. In whose office did you see him?—l went to the Government Offices. 173. Was Donald Fraser the spokesman, or did you speak to the Minister? —Fraser spoke, and the names I had put down on paper. 174. Did you put them down there, or bring them with you?—l wrote them at Parawanui. 175. What did Mr. Cadman say when you said you wanted to sell part of the block?—He said they were glad to accept the sale. 176. Did you and Mr. Cadman arrange the price at that meeting?—■Wβ did not say anything about the price at that time. 177. You say you made this proposed sale to Mr. Cadman on your own account, because the land was yours?— Yes. 178. Then why did you hand in the list of names ?—Because I had already decided to do that. 179. You say you sold the land because it was your own : if so, why did you at the same time hand in this list of names to Mr. Cadman ? —Not in consequence of anything that was said to me, but from my own thoughts. 180. Did not Mr. Cadman say, " What is the list of names " ?—I handed in the list of names, and I said, " This is a list of those for whom I have thought." 181. What did you mean by " the men I have thought for " ?—lt was in consequence of what I had said to my agent in reference to the troubles that had been about Horowhenua. 182. What did Mr. Cadman say when you gave him this list of names? —He said, "Very well," and I left the list with him. 183. Did he give you any message to these people when he dismissed you ? —No. 184. Do you know whether Mr. Cadman ever communicated with any of these people about this ? —He never told me that he did. Both Fraser and I told Mr. Cadman to take care of the list of names, because the trouble was not finished about Horowhenua, and the list was not yet completed. 185. Did Mr. Cadman say he would keep the list?—l suppose so, because he took it into his room. 186. Did you tell Mr. Cadman that these people in the list were consenting to what you were doing? —No ; I did not say that. The Ngatipariri had nothing to do with the sale ; I did it on my own responsibility. 187. Then why did you leave the list? What was the object of leaving it ?—I handed in the list to Mr. Cadman in consequence of what Kemp had said in Court that we were trustees for the Natives. I said, "No ; that is not the case; this land belongs to Kemp and myself." 188. In that case why bother about a host of names, if it was your land?—l told Mr. Cadman and so did Mr. Fraser, that this talk of Kemp's was only on his tongue, and I said, " If it is true that this land belongs to the people, why does Kemp not give it to the people instead of withholding it from them ? I have some feeling for them in my heart, and I will give a list of those who shall partake of the land." I gave the list to Mr. Cadman, to show that although Kemp was stating that he was trustee for the tribe, and held the land on their behalf, yet he took no action to give it to the tribe. 189. You told the Minister that the profession was on Kemp's tongue—that he was pretending to be a trustee, but kept the land ?—I told Mr. Cadman there was nothing at all in Kemp's statement that he was a trustee, because he had not handed in a list of names of the people like I had. 190. That Kemp had not put in any list of names, and it was all profession ?—Yes; but I gave one in, because I wanted to show that I did not want to exclude the people. 191. The people who had a right to be there ? —I did not put them in because of any particular right to this land, but from my own thoughts. 192. You told Mr. Cadman that the people in the list were those for whom you had whaekaaro in relation to the land ? —Yes; for whom I had good intentions. 193. So that in this interview you did all you could for the people for whom you had whaekaaro ?—Yes ; I handed in the list of names I had made. 194. That was the first interview with the Minister, when no arrangement was come to as to price. What was the next step ?—We came back after that interview to Parawanui.