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and mistresses. With regard to scholarships, we claim that they should be open to the children of our schools as well as to the children of the public schools, because they come out of the public funds, to which we are contributors. And, as extensive endowments have been made to public schools of a certain class, we deem it fair that our capitation grant shall be increased in proportion to the fairly estimated amount from such endowments to which, according to our numbers, we are entitled. On the above or equivalent conditions we are prepared to accept—l. The programme of studies adopted in the public schools. 2. The books, with the exception of objectionable books in history : we say objectionable, because there are some smaller abridgments of history which we could accept. 3. The Government Inspectors to examine on secular matters only, no questions on religious matters being asked. We are also prepared to buy our school land and erect our schools at our own expense, though it would be fair to ask Government pound for pound, because in the past we have expended large sums for the purchase of land, the erection of schools, and the payment of teachers, thus saving the Government a considerable expenditure. 25. Hon. Dr. Graced] What is your idea of the system of payment by results ?—I judge by the system in England, which I believe to be this: They pay so much per head for attendance in order to get the children to come to school. When the child has attended so many days in the year, so much is given by the Government—that is a law of mild compulsion. Secondly, there are examinations by Government Inspectors, and all those who come up to a certain standard get so much per head. 26. So I understand you to allege, if the Government had a system of general payment by results —that being the basis and leading principle of their system —within the lines of that system, your schools would be willing to come ?—Exactly. 27. Always provided you were allowed to object to certain histories ?—Yes. 28. Hon. the Chairman.] What is your opinion of the petitions from the Church of England : " Your petitioners are convinced that any fully satisfactory measure for education by the State should contain a provision for grants-in-aid being made to schools set on foot by any religious denomination, provided that the attendance and secular instruction in such schools shall come up to the required standards which satisfy the Government Inspectors" ?—I thoroughly indorse that. 29. The petition asks that grants-in-aid should be made to schools ?—That is, of course, what we want ?—So far, that is exactly our views. 30. Then, the petition further says : " Your petitioners are further of opinion that the Education Act should be so amended that provision may be made for the communication of religious instruction in the public schools by ministers of religion, or by persons duly authorized by them, to the children belonging to their respective comnrunions within school hours" ?—That I cannot agree with. 31. Hon. Mr. P. A. Buckley.] Will you explain your objections to that?—lt is asked that ministers or other persons authorized should go to teach religion in State schools in certain hours. We object to that because such schools would still remain secular schools. Religion would be made a part of secondary consideration in the eyes of the children, who would have constantly before them the differences of religion, which would certainly lead to harm and would bring religion into contempt in their minds. That is my view. A minister of one denomination would be in the school one day and another of a different denomination the next, and the children would see the differences. We could not be satisfied with that. We want our children brought up as Catholics ; then we are willling to give what the State requires in secular knowledge. Under that proposal we should have no control over the masters, and there might be an infidel master in a school whose constant influence would quite outweigh what was done by a clergyman in a short visit. lam not prepared with all our objections to that proposal at the moment, but those are two. 32. Hon. Dr. Grace.] What means did you resort to to get the statistics you have given the Committee ?—I sent to the parish priest in each place questions which form the heads of the table I have handed in, and their answers are what I have given. 33. Are your parish priests in the habit of keeping these returns upon which they may be supposed to have these particular figures ?—Certainly ; they all keep returns of their schools for their own purposes. 34. Is there any system in your diocese by which you have annual or periodical reports on the condition and cost of education?—Well, I cannot say annual, but periodical. - 35. So that it may reliably be contended that the data you now furnish the Committee was in a condition of antecedent preparedness before .it was called for by you ?—Certainly. 36. At what sacrifice to the Catholic population personally or individually is this system attended by, and can you cite any instances showing specific individual pressure upon certain persons of this system?—The pressure is almost continual. We are constantly asking them to pay money. We are asking them to pay for the support of our schools weekly or monthly. In some cases we have had to make a house-to-house collection for new schools. For instance, for the Brothers' School here we are asking 6d. a week from every adult Catholic in the town, and that has been going on for over twelve months I think. 37. What was the cost of that school? —The contract, interest, furniture, &c, amount to over £4,321. 38. Do the parents of children pay a weekly sum for the education of their children ?—They are supposed to do so, though some find it so hard that we admit them free. 39. Is that the chief source of your revenue ? —That is the only source. There may be extraordinary-collections. The schools are supported by fees per head paid weekly or monthly by the parents. -%, 40. Speaking in ordinary terms with regard to the value of money, do you think that tax for the education of their children is a great strain upon parents ?—ln some cases it is a very great strain, particularly when there are several children. In all cases it is a strain, because the parents might send their children to free schools. They see their neighbours' children educated by public funds, and they have to make this sacrifice, so that it is like a penal law. 41. What is the system as between children who pay and those who do not? Do the parents 2—l. 11.