I.—ll

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buildings, £84,466; annual cost of maintenance and working, £11,702 ; number of teachers, male twenty-eight, female 119; estimated value of services of teachers (because many are not remunerated, partly through deficiency of funds—we have estimated the value of their services according to the rates generally paid), £14,033 per annum ; number of pupils, 4,563. The details of those figures in tabulated form I hand in to the Committee, and I will read some general observations which are appended to the table. I may add that the cost of buildings as presented in the above table does, not include any church or chapel. 1. In some places we use the church as a schoolroom for want of a special building. 2. We employ more female teachers than male for want of money, though in some cases the former are more efficient than the latter. 3. We call attention to the fact that our annual cost of system multiplied by five (number of years since the existence of present public system) amounts to £58,510. 4. The public expenditure in four years (we speak from the beginning of this year) has been, say, £2,000,000. Share due to Catholics as one-seventh of the population, say, £70,000; and in the Diocese of Wellington, containing about one-half of the Catholic population of the colony, our annual share would be, say, £30,000. At the end of present year multiply by five and you have £30,000 x5 = £150,000. Add this to cost of system for same period of five years and you have £150,000+ £58,510 = £208,510, saved by us to the Government. Then, add our expenditure for land and buildings and you have £96,939+ £208,510 = £305,449, or, in round numbers, over one-third of a million pounds saved to the Government. 7. Hon. Dr. Grace.~\ I understand you to allege that half of one-seventh of the gross annual public expenditure on education, multiplied by the number of years the public system has been in operation, the total amount to which the Catholics of your diocese would be entitled is £150,000, which, added to what you have yourselves paid for maintenance for five years, £58,510, makes £208,510, and adding to that what you have spent on land and buildings, £96,939, the total is £305,449 ?—Yes. 8. So you mean to say, in point of fact; that the Catholics of your diocese, owing to their conscientious objection to the State system of education, have been mulcted to the extent of £305,449 in five years ?—Yes. 9. Therefore your contention is that, in justice and equity, they are not only entitled to consideration for the future, but that, if the matter was looked upon in a business-like light, they would be entitled to a refund?—Yes, if you push it so far, in strict equity. That is the way it stands. 10. Your object, I presume, in submitting these figures is to show what is the extent of the grievance the Catholics are subjected to? —Yes. 11. So you place before us not only the sacrifices they have made but the share of wealth they have lost, and you base that on the ground of their conscientious objection to the system ?—Yes, that is so. Evidently men would not make such enormous sacrifices otherwise. 12. Hon. the Chairman.'] Have you stated the endowments you have received ?■—We have none except 150 acres near Porirua, received for Maori education, which brings £38 a year. Then, there is a small piece of land in Wellington, left for white and Maori orphans by Sir George Grey when Governor, which brings in some £30 or £40 a year, as far as I remember. 13. Can you declare that the Catholics in general do object to the State system? —Most decidedly. Nothing can exceed their objection to it. 14. From what source do you obtain your teachers ?—As far as male teachers are concerned, excepting the Brothers, we generally advertise for them, and generally upon their presenting good testimonials and showing their efficiency we secure good teachers. With regard to female teachers, we generally do not obtain them in that manner. They are brought up in our convents ; and then we have nuns. 15. Have the Government any supervision over your schools?—They have if they wish, and we invite their Inspectors to visit our schools. Here is an extract from the report of a Government Inspector on one of our schools at New Headford, near Lincoln : " Examined by Inspector W. L. Edge. 49 on roll, 47 present, 44 presented, 29 passed; percentage, 65." 16. Do you receive children of other denominations for instruction in your schools ? —We do. 17. What is the percentage of non-Catholics ?—Not very great. The secular schools being free deter many from coming except to our high schools, "where we have a certain number from other denominations. 18. Do you consider the non-Catholic children coming to your schools are fairly instructed according to age—according to what is done in your own schools ?—I am not prepared to answer that question. 19. Do you know anything about the religious instruction of the non-Catholic children who come to your schools ?—No. 20. Great care is taken with the religious instruction of your own children ?—Yes. 21. Do you believe in the secular system of education ?—I cannot say that Ido by any means. 22. Then, you are a strong supporter of denominational education?—Yes ; but we do not want to repeal the present Act if the people of the colony want it, but we cannot avail ourselves of it without violating our consciences. 23. Are you conversant with the system in England ? —To a certain extent; lam not well posted up in it. As far as I remember there are Catholic schools receiving grants —so much per head for attendance and so much per head for results as shown by Government examinations. 24. Do you think that would meet the views of the present petitioners ?—Partially perhaps; I cannot say that it would wholly. I will read a few lines I have written suggesting what I think the Catholics would accept?. Of course this is only on my authority. Ido not speak for Dr. Moran or for the Bishop of Auckland. They may differ from me in details ; but for myself I say this: What, then, do we want? 1. We want our schools to be on an equal footing with the public schools. 2. If the Education Act is modified, so as to have a general system of payment of results established, we accept our chance. 3. If not, we ask for a fair capitation grant, based on what is given to public, schools of the same class or standing as ours, including training schools for schoolmasters