Papers Past | Parliamentary Papers | Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives | 1912 Session I | ROYAL COMMISSION ON MINES (REPORT ON THE).

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Session I. 1912 NEW ZEALAND.

ROYAL COMMISSION ON MINES (REPORT ON THE).

Presented to both Houses of the General Assembly by Command of His Excellency.

COMMISSION.

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(1.) The prevention of accidents in mines; (2.) The ventilation of mines; (3.) The underground sanitation of mines; (4.) Change and bath houses for miners; and more particularly as to (a.) What steps could be taken for the better prevention of accidents, particularly those from the use and firing of explosives, falls from roof and side, also accidents in shafts and from machinery; and whether any improvement can be made in the present system of investigation and inquiry into accidents : (b.) Whether any, and if so what, steps should be taken to lay down an improved standard of ventilation in mines : (c.) What steps should be taken to guard against the disease known as miners' phthisis : (d.) Whether any, and if so what, fresh legislation is necessary to give effect to your recommendations. And, with the like advice and consent, I do further appoint you the said James Sim Evans to be Chairman of the said Commission. And, for the better enabling you to carry these presents into effect, you are hereby authorized and empowered to make and conduct any inquiry under these presents at such place or places in the said Dominion as you may deem expedient, with power to adjourn from time to time and from place to place as you think fit, and to call before you and examine on oath or otherwise as may be allowed by law any person or persons that you may think capable of affording you any information in the premises; and you are also hereby empowered to call for and examine all such books, documents, papers, maps, plans, or records as you judge likely to afford you the fullest information on the subject of this Commission, and to inquire of and concerning the premises by all other lawful ways and means whatsoever; and also to use the evidence taken in the course of any previous inquiry touching the premises. And, using all diligence, you are required to report to me under your hands and seals your opinion resulting from the said inquiry in respect of the several matters and things inquired into by you under or by virtue of these presents within three months from the date hereof, stating in such report what steps (if any) it would, in your opinion, be expedient to adopt under the circumstances which you find to exist, and in what manner effect should be given to such recommendations. And it is hereby declared that this Commission shall continue in full force and virtue although the inquiry be not regularly continued from time to time by adjournment, and that you, or any four of you, shall and may from time to time proceed in execution hereof, and of every power, matter, and thing herein contained. And, lastly, it is hereby further declared that these presents are issued under and subject to the provisions of the Commissions of Inquiry Act, 1908. Given under the hand of His Excellency the Right Honourable John Poynder Dickson-Poynder, Baron Islington, Governor and Com-mander-in-Chief in and over His Majesty's Dominion of New Zealand and its Dependencies; and issued under the Seal of the said Dominion, .at the Government House, at Wellington, this twenty-eighth day of July, in the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and eleven. R. McKenzie, Issued in Executive Council. Minister of Mines. J. F. Andrews, Clerk of the Executive Council.

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EXTENDING TIME OF COMMISSION.

Islington, Governor. To all to whom these presents shall come, and to Neil Dundonald Cochrane, Esq., of Dunedin, Mining Engineer; John Dowgray, Esq., of Granity, Miner; James Sim Evans, Esq., of Nelson, Warden and Stipendiary Magistrate; George Fletcher, Esq., of Granity, Mine-manager; Herbert Scott Molineaux, Esq., of JBarewood, Mine-manager; William Edward Parry, Esq., of Waihi, Miner; and Frank Heed, Esq., of Wellington, Inspecting Engineer of Mines. Whereas by a Warrant dated the twenty-eighth day of July, one thousand nine hundred and eleven, and issued under my hand and the public seal of the Dominion, you were appointed a Commission to inquire into and report on the conditions relating to the health and safety of the miners of New Zealand and the administration of the laws relating to mining and coal-mines, and you were directed and required to report to me on or before the twenty-eighth day of October then next ensuing your proceedings and your opinion touching the matters mentioned therein : And whereas it is expedient that the said period should be extended as hereinafter provided : , Now, therefore, I, John Poynder Dickson-Poynder, Baron Islington, the Governor of the Dominion of New Zealand, in exercise of the powers conferred by the Commissions of Inquiry Act, 1908, and of all other powers and authorities enabling me in that behalf, and acting by and with the advice and consent of the Executive Council of the said Dominion, do hereby declare and appoint that the time at or before which you shall present to me your report aforesaid is hereby extended to the first day of December, one thousand nine hundred and eleven : And with the like advice and consent, and in further pursuance of the said power and authority, I do hereby confirm the said Commission. Given under the hand of His Excellency the Eight Honourable John Poynder Dickson-Poynder, Baron Islington, Governoi and Com-mander-in-Chief in and over His Majesty's Dominion of JNew Zealand and its Dependencies; and issued under the Seal of the said Dominion, at the Government House, at Wellington, this first day of November, in the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and eleven. E. McKenzie, Issued in Executive Council, Minister of Mines. J. F. Andrews, Clerk of the Executive Council. EXTENDING TIME OF COMMISSION. Islington, Governor. To all to whom these presents shall come, and to Neil Dundonald Cochrane, Esq., of Dunedin, Mining Engineer; John Dowgray, Esq., of Granity, Miner; James Sim Evans, Esq., of Nelson, Warden and Stipendiary Magistrate; George Fletcher, Esq., of Granity, Mine-manager; Herbert Scott Molineaux, Esq., of Barewood, Mine-manager; William Edward Parry, Esq., of Waihi, Miner; and Frank Eeed, Esq., of Wellington, Inspecting Engineer of Mines. Whereas by a Warrant dated the twenty-eighth day of July, one thousand nine hundred and eleven, and issued under my hand and the public seal of the Dominion, you were appointed a Commission to inquire into and report on the

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conditions relating to the health and safety of the miners of New Zealand and the administration of the laws relating to mining and coal-mines, and you were directed and required to report to me on or before the twenty-eighth day of October then next ensuing your proceedings and your opinion touching the matters mentioned therein: And whereas by a Warrant dated the first day of November, one thousand nine hundred and eleven, the said period was extended and you were required to report to me not later than the first day of December, one thousand nine hundred and eleven : And whereas it is expedient that the said period should be extended as hereinafter provided : Now, therefore, I, John Poynder Dickson-Poynder, Baron Islington, the Governor of the Dominion of New Zealand, in exercise of the powers conferred by the Commissions of Inquiry Act, 1908, and of all other powers and authorities enabling me in that behalf, and acting by and with the advice and consent of the Executive Council of the said Dominion, do hereby declare and appoint that the time at or before which you shall present to me your report aforesaid is hereby extended to the sixteenth day of December, one thousand nine hundred and eleven : And with the like advice and consent, and in further pursuance of the said power and authority, I do hereby confirm the said Commission. Given under the hand of His Excellency the Eight Honourable John Poynder Dickson-Poynder, Baron Islington, Governor and Com mander-in-Chief in and over' His Majesty's Dominion of New Zealand and its Dependencies; and issued under the Seal of the said Dominion, at the Government House, at Wellington, this eleventh day of December, one thousand nine hundred and eleven. R. McKenzie, Issued in Executive Council, Minister of Mines. J. F. Andrews, Clerk of the Executive Council.

EXTENSION OF SCOPE OF COMMISSION.

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Executive Council of the said Dominion, do hereby direct that your powers and functions under the said Warrant are hereby extended to and shall be deemed to include the power to inquire and report generally as to— The profitable utilization of the soft bituminous and lignite coals of the Westport District of New Zealand. And with the like advice and consent, and in further pursuance of the said power and authority, I do hereby confirm the said Commission. Given under the hand of His Excellency the Right Honourable John Poynder Dickson-Poynder, Baron Islington, Governor and Com-mander-in-Chief in and over His Majesty's Dominion of New Zealand and its Dependencies; and issued under the Seal of the said Dominion, at the Government House, at Wellington, this thirtieth day of September, in the year of our Lord%ne thousand nine hundred and eleven. R. McKenzie, Approved in Council. Minister of Mines. J. F. Andrews. Clerk of the Executive Council.

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EEPOET. To His Excellency the Right Honourable John Poynder Dickson-Poynder, Baron Islington, Governor and Commander-in-Chief in and over His Majesty's Dominion of New Zealand and its Dependencies. May it please Your Excellency,— The Commission, and the enlargement thereof, intrusted to us by Your Excellency directed us to inquire into and report on the following matters :— (1.) The prevention of accidents in mines; (2.) The ventilation of mines; (3.) The underground sanitation of mines; (4.) Change and bath houses for miners; and more particularly as to (a.) What steps could be taken for the better prevention of accidents, particularly those from the use and firing of explosives, falls from roof and side, also accidents in shafts and from machinery; and whether any improvement can be made in the present system of investigation and inquiry into accidents : (b.) Whether any, and if so what, steps should be taken to lay down an improved standard of ventilation in mines : (c.) What steps' should be taken to guard against the disease known as miners' phthisis : (d.) Whether any, and if so what, fresh legislation is necessary to give effect to your recommendations. We entered upon our duties at Wellington on the 3rd August, 1911, and laid down our plan of operations, which was as follows : That we should visit all the important mining centres, both coal and gold, and make a personal inspection of the principal mines in order to ascertain the actual working-conditions prevailing in each; that we should hear evidence on oath touching all the matters within the scope of the Commission, the witnesses to be examined by the Commissioners, with provision for any person interested submitting any question through the Chairman or other member of the Commission; all sittings of the Commission where evidence was being taken to be open to the public and the Press, but committee meetings to be held in private. On the 4th August we proceeded to Whangarei. On the Bth August we commenced our investigations by visiting the Hikurangi and Northern Coalmines, and on the following day the Commission sat at Whangarei, where evidence was tendered on behalf of the miners, the management, and by the Government Inspector of Mines for the district. This course was followed throughout our itinerary. During our investigations we visited the following places, making inspections and hearing evidence : Whangarei, Thames, Waihi, Karangahake, Auckland, Huntly, Nightcaps, Invercargill, Queenstown, Cromwell, Alexandra, Kaitangata, Dunedin (including Green Island), Westport, Granity, Seddonville, Denniston, Reefton, Big River, Brunnerton, Greymouth, Kumara, Hokitika, Blackball, and Nelson (for Puponga evidence). These places, in the opinion of the Commission, covered the whole of the main centres for coal, quartz-mining, and dredging. A sitting of the Commission was also held in Wellington to consider various matters, chiefly the question of the manufacture of briquettes. During the whole course of our inspections we visited and examined sixteen gold-mines, employing 3,316 men out of a total of 4,124 quartz-miners, and seventeen coal-mines, employing 3,474 men out of a total of 4,599 coal-miners. We heard the evidence of ninety-four witnesses on the subject-matters of the Commission so far as they relate to gold-mining, and seventy-nine witnesses in respect of coal-mining. In the course of our inspec-

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tions of the mines we took samples of mine-air, temperatures with the hygrometer, and air-measurements with the anemometer in such places as we deemed it advisable, in addition to which we obtained from the Inspectors of Mines of the different districts similar data regarding samples and tests taken and made by them over an extended period, copies of which are appended (Appendix, Nos. 2, 3, 4). This data gives approximately the general conditions prevailing in the various mines to which it relates. In regard to the condition in which we found mines generally, and the way in which the Acts have been administered, we have to say that full advantage has not always been taken of the safety precautions already existing. We would urge upon Inspectors of Mines, management, and men alike the necessity for using extreme caution. We believe that if our recommendations are incorporated in the statutes and strictly enforced the mining conditions will be greatly improved and accidents minimized. We do not propose to discuss the conditions of individual mines, but to report to Your Excellency on the deductions we have made and the conclusions arrived at regarding the various matters within the scope of the Commission, and to make such recommendations as will be for the well-being of the men employed in the different industries and branches thereof. With this object in view we propose to report to your Excellency under the various heads as set out in the Commission, viz. : — I. The prevention of accidents in mines. 11. The ventilation of mines. 111. The underground sanitation of mines. IV. Change and bath houses for miners. V. What steps should be taken to guard against miners'^phthisis. • VI. The profitable utilization of the soft bituminous and lignite coals of the Westport District of New Zealand. I. THE PREVENTION OF ACCIDENTS IN MINES. This subject has been considered in three sections, as follows : — 1. Inspectors of Mines, deputies, miners, workmen's inspectors, and the management of small mines by permit-holders. 2. Mining— (i.) Coal-mining, (ii.) Haulage, (iii.) Explosions of gas and dust, with its cognate but not always allied subject, shot-firing, (iv.) Metalliferous mining. (v.) Machinery. 3. Miscellaneous. To these questions your Commissioners have devoted much time and thought. * Numerous precautionary measures have been asked for and carefully considered. In many instances we have approved of the suggestions made. In some, however, a majority are not prepared to make any recommendation, for the reason, amongst others, that they are more of the nature of economical questions than directly contributory to* accidents. W T e are of opinion that where definite provisions which are generally applicable can be made, they should be matter for embodiment in the statutes or regulations. In some cases, however, such provisions might be oppressive or prohibitive under varying circumstances. Such an adaptation of the law according to what may be attainable, and not a general provision which might be contrary to good mining practice in certain cases, is particularly applicable to our recommendations under " Mining," more especially as to coal-seams, which in this Dominion vary greatly in hardness, strength, thickness, and safety of roofs even in the same district. To meet the requirements of local conditions we recommend that a committee should be set up at each mine, with power to make, alter, and from time to time to amend additional special rules for coal-

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mines and additional regulations for metal-mines suitable for each particular mine. Accordingly we recommend that section 42 of the Coal-mines Act, 1908, be amended so as to provide— (1.) For the appointment of a committee at the different mines, consisting of the mine-manager, the Inspector of Mines, and a representative appointed in a similar manner to the workmen's inspector by a majority of the workers in the mine, to frame additional special rules. In like manner we recommend that provision be made under the Mining Act, 1908, for the appointment of similar committees to frame additional regulations, and that the workmen's representatives on these committees be appointed in the same manner as the workmen's inspector under that Act. (2.) The matters which should fall within the scope of these rules and regulations should be such only as affect the working of the particular mine, not inconsistent with the rules and regulations under the respective Acts. These rules or regulations, when drawn up, should be open for inspection for, say, fourteen days after the making thereof. Any person subject thereto (including any member of the committee) should have the right of appeal against all or any of the rules, either to the Minister of Mines or to an Appellate Board consisting of the Minister of Mines, the Inspecting Engineer, and the Warden (or, if no Warden, the Magistrate for the district in which the mine is situate). If no such appeal is made within fourteen days, then the rules or s regulations should become the working rules or regulations of the mine, and have the force and effect of law to the same extent as if they formed part of the general rules or regulations applicable to the mine. In case of appeal the Minister or the Board, as the case may be, should have power to cancel, vary, or amend the rules appealed against, and their decision should be final. A breach of these rules, or such of them as may be specified, should be deemed an offence under the Act. We believe that such committees should be able to frame effective and satisfactory rules from their knowledge of the local requirements. A somewhat similar though not so extensive a power is provided by section 87 of the British Coal-mines Act. 1. Inspectors of Mines, Deputies, Etc. We recommend as follows : — (1.) That Government Inspectors of Mines be required to pass a special examination, higher than that of a mine-manager, before appointment. (2.) That, in order to enable Inspectors of Mines more effectually to carry out their duties and to enforce their orders, they have summary power of prosecuting in all cases affecting the safety of workers in mines; but that in cases of death, or serious bodily injury, or dangerous practices, the Inspector should consult the Inspecting Engineer of Mines before taking proceedings. We believe that if they had such powers it would have a better effect in compelling both the management and the men to observe the precautions necessary for safety. (3.) That the Inspector of Mines be given power to withdraw men from dangerous places in mines, and that an Inspector's duties be restricted to inspections of mines and duties appertaining to mines only under both the Coal-mines and Mining Acts respectively. (4.) That it be made compulsory for all deputies during their rounds to examine the roof and sides, irrespective, of the examination by miners and workmen's inspectors.

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(5.) That it be made compulsory for the deputy or fireman who examines the mine, before the first shift starts, to remain at a convenient station near the entrance of the mine, in order that each man entering the mine may have an opportunity of obtaining a verbal report as to the condition of his place, and that each man shall obtain such information from the deputy before proceeding to his work. (6.) (a.) That a coal-miner shall have experience in coal-hewing and timbering before he has charge of a place, and that the period of such experience be two years and a half underground, of which six months shall be at the face with an experienced miner. (b.) That the minimum age at which a miner shall be put in charge of a place be twenty-one years. A great deal of evidence has been tendered on the above subject of an experienced miner getting charge of a place where, quite apart from the danger to the whole mine if it be a fiery one, on his knowledge of mining and timbering not only his own life but that of others must largely depend. (7.) That the workmen's inspectors have authority to inspect the mine once in every fortnight, and, in addition thereto, that they have authority to do so at all reasonable times, on receiving notice from any two miners that the mine, or any part thereof, is by them considered dangerous, the workmen's inspector to notify the mine-manager, in writing, of the proposed inspection; that, if the workmen's inspector is of opinion that any such mine or part thereof is dangerous, he shall forthwith record the same in a book kept at the mine office for the purpose, and he shall request the mine-manager to stop work at the place and withdraw all men therefrom, and discontinue or rectify any dangerous practice. If the manager refuses to withdraw the men, or fails for an unreasonable time to do so, or remedy the defect, if any, the workmen's inspector may apply to the Inspector of Mines to withdraw the men, or to have the dangerous practice discontinued; that if it is proved to the satisfaction of the Court that the place was dangerous at the time of the workmen's inspection, or that a dangerous practice existed, and that the manager failed without reasonable excuse to comply with the request of the workmen's inspector, he shall be deemed guilty of an offence under the Act; that the manager shall forward without delay a copy of such workmen's inspector's report to the Inspector of Mines. The above provision may meet urgent cases during the absence of the Inspector of Mines from the district. 2. Mining. (i.) Coal-mining. The question of the height of pillar -workings involves the earning-power of the men and the cost of winning the coal, but the chief consideration is the safety of the men. High pillar-working has been such a fruitful source of accident in many mines owing to the miner being unable to conveniently sound the roof that we recommend— (1.) That the lifts in pillar-workings be restricted to 10 ft. in height, and the Inspector of Mines to have power to determine the height at which the remaining coal shall be taken out, subject to the right of appeal to the Warden (or the Stipendiary Magistrate in districts where there is no Warden) and the Inspecting Engineer of Mines; if they fail to agree, the matter to be referred to the Minister of Mines, whose decision shall be final.

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(2.) Systematic timbering in its modern sense—that distances should be fixed for the regular setting of props, sets, and chocks, and that such distances should not be exceeded—received our due consideration. We are of opinion that provisions similar to those of the British Coal-mines Act, 1911, on " Systematic Support of Roof and Sides," should be incorporated in the Coalmines Act of this Dominion, viz. :— 50. (1.) Where props, or props and bars, or chocks are used to support the roof at the working-face, the roof under which any work of getting coal or filling tubs is carried on shall be systematically and adequately supported, and the props or chocks shall be set at such regular intervals and in such manner as may be specified in the notice hereinafter mentioned. (2.) Holing props or sprags shall be set as soon as practicable, and shall be set at such regular intervals and in such manner as may bu specified in the notice hereinafter mentioned, and shall not be removed before the roofsupports (if any) have been advanced in the manner specified in the notice. (3.) In all parts of a roadway in which sets or trains of tubs are coupled or uncoupled the roof and sides shall be systematically and adequately supported, and in such parts and in all other parts of the roadway the roof or sides of which require to be supported, if props or bars are used is supports, such supports shall be set at such regular intervals and in such manner as may be specified in the notice hereinafter mentioned. (i.) The manager shall by notice specify the manner in which the supports are to be set and advanced, and the maximum intervals to be observed on roadways between the supports and at the face— (a.) Between each row of props : (6.) Between adjacent props in the same row : (c.) Between the front row of props and the face : (d.) Between the holing props or sprags : (c.) Between chocks or each set of cogs : Provided that the interval between holing props or sprags shall in no case exceed 6 ft. (5.) If the Inspector of the district considers that the system of supporting the roof and sides adopted in any part of a mine is unsatisfactory, either by reason of the distances fixed or any of them being excessive or otherwise, he may require the manager to fix some less distance or otherwise modify the system, and the manager shall comply with the requisition unless he disputes the reasonableness thereof, in which case the dispute shall be settled in manner provided under the Coal-mines Act for settling disputes. (6.) Nothing in this section shall prevent a workman from setting supports in his working-face at more frequent intervals than those specified in the notice aforesaid where necessary for safety. (3.) That the maximum widths of bords and cut-throughs, where the bord and pillar system is followed, should be 12 ft. and 9 ft. respectively for a distance of 2 yards when opening out or breaking away; thereafter that the maximum widths be 18 ft. and 12 ft. respectively. (4.) That the use of all three-cornered bars or caps in set timbering be prohibited. (5.) Drawing timber used to support the roof in pillar-working and otherwise is not carried out for commercial reasons only, but is frequently done with the object of letting the roof fall and so relieving the pressure, thus permitting the safer extraction of the immediately adjoining coal. The danger of knocking out a prop by hammer is so obvious that it only requires to be mentioned. After hearing the evidence and observing the methods practised we recommend that no timber be withdrawn except by lever and chain or by blasting. (ii.) Haulage. In the report of the British Royal Commission on Mines, 1909, iinderground haulage is referred to as constituting one of the most fruitful sources of loss of life in mines, being only exceeded in this respect by those coming under the head of falls of roof and sides. In Britain 63-5 per cent, of the haulage accidents for the ten years ended 1907 were due to persons being run over or crushed by

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tubs. Of four Inspectors of Mines giving evidence before the British Royal Commission all recommended that sufficient clearance should exist between the trucks and the sides. A recommendation as to this appears further on. The use of chains on jigs, or self-acting inclines, where usually only one loaded tub during its descent by gravity pulls up the empty tub, was frequently unfavourably referred to in the evidence. The haulage chain passes through a staple on a single prop, and runs on a metal plate, causing so much noise when running that it is a source of danger. The extra jar through the roughness of the running was considered not only a source of accident on the incline itself, but to some extent likely to cause accidents through the jig-props springing, and also by increasing the liability to falls of the roof. On the face-jigs — those lowering from the working-face, being the first stage of the self-acting incline — chains, on account of their suitability for lengthening as the face advances, are required. We therefore recommend— (1.) That the use of chains should be prohibited on all but face-jigs, and that wire ropes be substituted therefor. (2.) That provision be made for anchor chains to be supplied and their use made compulsory on all face-jigs. This simple method of preventing runaway tubs, where such occurrences are not infrequent, is likely to reduce the percentage of accidents under this head. (3.) That all haulage inclines, self-acting inclines, and all jigs except face-jigs, be fitted with bells or adequate signalling-appliances. (4.) That Special Rule 89 under the Coal-mines Act, 1908, be amplified to include the compulsory provision and use of adequate stopblocks on all working-jigs. (5.) That a backstay or trailer should be attached to each ascendingtub or set of tubs on every inclined haulage road where mechanical haulage other than endless rope or chain is used. (6.) That in all mines where cages are used by the men travelling in or out of the mine the engine-driver should always be within hearing of the signals when men are underground, and that this should be provided for in both the Coal-mines Act and the Mining Act. (iii.) Explosions of Gas and Coaldust, and Shot-firing. (1.) In almost all the large coal-mines in this Dominion ventilating fans have been installed, but the further measure of prohibiting the use of furnaces and steam boilers in fiery mines has been considered. Not only has the possibility of firedamp been taken into consideration, but the further contingency of ignition of the coal-seam. We are of opinion that both ventilating and boiler furnaces should be prohibited in fiery mines. (2.) The question of the position of the ventilating-appliances has been fully discussed under the head of " Ventilation." It is therefore unnecessary to deal with the matter here further than to emphasize the fact that, as a precautionary measure in case of accident, it is essential that they should be outside the mine, with a proviso for auxiliary fans underground where required. (3.) Coaldust explosions have formed the subject of much inquiry and research by the British Royal Commission on Mines, 1909, and the following extract from their report (pages 85, 86, 97) shows succinctly some of the reasons, in addition to the evidence tendered to us, for the recommendations which follow :— For the starting of coaldust explosions two conditions are necessary : (1) A disturbance sufficient to suspend a cloud of fine dust in the air, and (2) the projection of a flame into this cloud of dust. . . . The means for preventing coaldust explosions may be roughly classified into those which prevent the initiation of an explosion and those which prevent its extension. Again, they say,— It is quite clear that the entire removal of coaldust from a mine so as to render it completely immune against an explosion is out of the question.

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Further on they say, — Watering as a means of preventing coaldust explosions has been practised in some mines in this country for a large number of years, and has generally been considered, where practicable, the most effective method of dealing with the danger. We recommend — (1.) That the use ot.' water should be compulsory in all ways in a dry and dusty mine where the dust cannot otherwise be conveniently removed, with the proviso for an exemption for return airways. (2.) That the provisions of section 6 of the British Statutory Rules and Orders of the Explosives in Coal-mines Order of the 17th December, 1906, be incorporated in the New Zealand statute, namely : — 6. In this order the term " permitted explosives'' means such explosives as are named and defined in the First Schedule hereto, and the term " permitted igniter fuse " means such igniter fuses as are named and denned in the Second Schedule hereto : Provided that, where the composition, quality. or character of any explosive or any igniter fuse is defined in such schedules, any article alleged to be such explosive or such igniter fu.se which differs therefrom in composition, quality, or character, whether by reason of deterioration or otherwise, shall not be deemed to be the explosive or igniter fuse so defined : Provided further that an owner, agent, or manager shall not be iesponsible for the composition, quality, or character of an explosive or igniter fuse if he shows that he has in good faith obtained a written certificate from the makei , of the explosive or igniter fuse that it complies with the terms of the schedule, and that he has taken all reasonable means to prevent deterioration of the explosive or igniter fuse while stored. (3.) That only " permitted explosives " of the British schedule for the time being be allowed in (i) pillar-workings where safety-lamps are compulsory, and (ii) in coal-mines where firedamp has been found within the preceding three months. (4.) That such permitted explosives shall only be fired by safety igniters, or, provided that inflammable gas in the air-currents in the place of firing or part of the ventilating district of the mine does not amount to one-half of one per cent., then electric exploders may be used. (5.) That sections 32, 33, and 34 of the British Coal-mines Act be adopted, mutatis mutandis, viz. : — 32. (1.) No lamp or light other than a locked safety-lamp shall be allowed or used— (a.) Tn am' seam where the air-current in the return airway from any ventilating district in the seam is found normally to contain more than one-half per cent, of inflammable gas • (6.) In any seam (except in the main intake airways within two hundred yards from the shaft) in which an explosion of inflammable gas causing any personal injury whatever has occurred within the previous twelve months, unless an exemption be given by the Minister on the ground that on account of the special character of the mine the use of safety-lamps is not required : (c.) In any place in a mine in which there is likely to be any such quantity of inflammable gas as to render the use of naked lights dangerous : (d.) In any working apmoaching near a place in which there is likely to be an accumulation of inflammable gas : (c.) In any place where the use of safety-lamps is required by the regulations of the mine. (2.) Where, in pursuance of the Coal-mines Act, or the Special Rules, or the Additional Special Rules, the use of safety-lamps has been introduced in any part of a ventilating district, it shall not be lawful to use naked lights in any other part of the same ventilating district situated between the place where such lamps are used and the return airway, except when the use of safety-lamps in that part of the district was introduced as a temporary precaution, and the conditions are not such as to render necessary the introduction of the use of safety-lamps throughout the district. (3.) Where, in pursuance of the Coal-mines Act, or the Special Rules, or the Additional Special Rules, the use of safety-lamps has been introduced otherwise than as a temporary precaution against apprehended danger in any part of a mine, no lamp or light other than a safety-lamp shall subsequently

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be allowed or used in that part without the sanction of the Inspector of the district, which sanction shall not be withheld unreasonably, and any question as to whether such sanction has been unreasonably withheld shall be determined in manner provided for by the Coal-mines Act. (4.) The average percentage of inflammable gas found in six samples of air taken by an Inspector in the air-current in the return airway in the ventilating district at intervals of not less than a fortnight shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to be the percentage normally contained in the air. 33. Wherever safety-lamps are_ required by the Coal-mines Act, or Special Rules, or Additional Special Rules to be used, no safety-lamp shall be used by any person employed in the mine unless ii is provided by the owner of the mine, and is of a type for the time being approved as respects the class of mines to which the mine belongs by the .Minister of Mines. 34. In any mine or part of a mine in which safety-lamps are required by the Coal-mines Act, or Special Rules, or Additional Special Rules to be used— (i.) A safety-lamp shall not be used unless it has since last in use been thoroughly examined at the .surface by a competent person appointed by tlie manager for the purpose, and found by him in safe working-order and securely locked; and a record shall be kept of the men to whom the several lamps are given out. (ii.) Such competent person as aforesaid shall also examine every lamp on its being returned, and if on such examination any lamp is found to be damaged lie shall record the nature of the damage in a book lo be kepi at flic mine for the purpose, and the person to whom the lamp was given out shall be deemed to have wilfully damaged the lamp unless he proves that the damage was due to no fault of his own, and that he immediately gave notice of the damage to the fireman, examiner, or deputy. nil.l A safety-lamp shall not be unlocked except at an appointed lampstation (winch shall not be in a return airway) by a competent person appointed by the manager for the purpose, nor, except in the case of electric hand-lamps, shall it be relighted except by such a person at an appointed lamp-station after examination by him, and no person other than such person as aforesaid shall have in his possession any contrivance for relighting or opening the lock of any safety-lamp. (iv.) No part of a safety-lamp shall be removed by any person whilst the lamp is in ordinary use. ((J.) The question of the use of electricity underground and the withdrawal of the men from gaseous places will be dealt with under the head of " The Ventilation of Mines." The matter is also important under " Accidents," hence we recommend — (a.) That the Inspector shall have power to prohibit the use of electricity in any mine or part of a mine where, on account of the risk of explosion of gas or .coaldust, such use would be dangerous. (b.) That the use of electricity in any mine or part of a mine be discontinued where the amount of inflammable gas in the air exceeds one-half of one per cent. (c.) That workmen shall be withdrawn from any place where the proportion of inflammable gas exceeds two and onehalf per cent. (7.) We also recommend that the length of time which should elapse before a man returns to a misfire should be the same as is provided in the British Act and the Royal Commission's Report of 1909 —viz., one hour for fuse firing, and half an hour for electric firing—both under the Mining and Coal-mines Acts. (Messrs. Dowgray and Parry dissenting from clause 7.) We recommend that the following matters be left to the proposed committees to frame additional special rules for each coal-mine :— (1.) Whether some person should accompany the deputy on his rounds of inspection; (2.) The number of men a deputy can supervise in each particular mine. Regarding the height of first workings, bords, and cut-throughs, Com-

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mission affirms the principle that the same should be limited, but that the exact height should be left to the proposed committee to determine according to the local conditions. The safety afforded by splitting all pillars, in distinction to the various methods of working " lifts " or strips off them, has been advocated by some of the witnesses, and has received our consideration. The size of the pillars in some cases must preclude all splitting. We are of opinion that this question should be left to, and can be best dealt with by, the proposed additional special rules. The question of giving power to Inspectors of Mines to require that the panel system of working should be followed in any mine or any portion of a mine met with our consideration. It need not be further outlined than to state that by this system the mine is divided into districts by barrier pillars or solfd strips of coal, so that if underground fires, which are not uncommon in New Zealand, should break out, or if an explosion occurs, their effects should be limited. Your Commission considers this is a question for decision according to the local conditions. (iv.) Metalliferous Mining. We recommend — (1.) That Regulation No. 1 (sb) of 7th September, 1911, be so amended that the maximum height of stopes shall be 8 ft. 6 in., measured from the ordinary level of the working-floor of that stope. (2.) That all ladderways in constant use for travelling, where it is difficult to carry an open light, shall be lighted by fixed lights, if in the opinion of the Inspector of Mines such is required. (3.) That sufficient space be made in all levels at convenient intervals for men passing trucks. (4.) That it be compulsory for chambermen and bracemen to be always at their posts; but this is not to be construed as requiring a chamberman at each level. (5.) That speaking-tubes, or some approved method of communication, be required between levels and shafts and levels and stopes if over 50 ft. in height. (6.) That'all ladders in mines extend for at least 3 ft. above the top of the shaft, platform, or landing-place. (7.) That the provisions for two outlets from a mine to the surface, as recommended by the Transvaal Mining Commission, 1910, be adopted to the following extent: — In. connection with every mine there shall be at least two shafts or outlets to the surface, with which every reef or mineral bed for the time being worked in the mine shall have a communication of not less than three feet wide and three feet high, so that such shafts or outlets shall afford separate means of ingress or egress available to all persons employed in such mine : Provider! that it shall not be necessary for such shafts or outlets to be situated on the same mine. Such shafts or outlets must not lead to the surface in one and the same shaft-shed, and must not at any point be nearer to one another than thirty feet. (1.) The provisions hereinbefore contained with regard to shafts or outlets shall not apply— (a.) To any mine in which one of the shafts or outlets has temporarily become unavailable for the persons employed in the mine so long as every effort is being made by the manager to repair the damage : (b.) To any mine in which not more than ten persons are at any one time employed below ground in or in connection with any workings connected with any shaft or outlet which is unconnected with any other shaft or outlet. (8.) That shift bosses should be required to examine " backs " and sides of working-places and travelling-ways, irrespective of the examination by miners' and workmen's inspectors. (9.) That the use of all tamping other than plastic clay or water be prohibited.

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(10.) On account of the great similarity in size, general appearance, and colour rendering it probable that instantaneous fuse may be : mistaken for ordinary fuse, that the use of instantaneous fuse should be prohibited at all mines. (11.) In addition to its bearing on ventilation we are of opinion that it is desirable that the following recommendation of the Transvaal Mining Commission should be adopted, viz. : — Every working-place where rook-drills are in use shall be furnished with a James water-blast or suitable appliance for laying and removing the dust, smoke, and gases after a blast; and no man shall return to an end, rise, winze, or other close place until the air is free from dust, smoke, and fumes caused by blasting. (12.) That the practice of charging a number of holes, when it is intended to fire only a few at a time, should be prohibited. (13.) That in straight drives where firing is in vogue the Inspector be empowered to order barriers or other sufficient cover to protect the men when blasting. (14.) That in ail shafts in course of sinking there shall be provided adequate coverings or pent-houses extending over the whole area of such shafts, sufficient space only being left therein for the passage of any sinking cage, skip, bucket, or other means of conveyance. In the case of vertical shafts such covering shall be situated not more than 50 ft. from the shaft-bottom. In the case of steeply inclined shafts such covering shall be situated not more than 100 ft. from the shaft-bottom. (15.) That it be made an offence for men— (a.) To carry tools or timber in ladderways : (b.) To throw tools or timber down ladderways : (c.) To take explosives with them in cages. (16.) We recommend that the following matters be left to the proposed committee to frame additional regulations for each mine :— (a.) Dealing with wet places, and the hours to be worked therein : (b.) Making provision for lifting heavy timber from cages to trucks in all levels : (c.) Eegulating or prohibiting the practice of " balling " or chambering holes : (d.) Dealing with the use of electricity in firing holes in shafts, rises, and winzes. The question of abolishing the night shift as a means of minimizing accidents was raised. We are of opinion that the night shift in mining, in common with night-shift work in all other employments, may be more detrimental to men than the day shift, but not so as to warrant us in making any recommendation thereon. (Messrs. Parry and Dowgray dissenting.) (v.) Machinery (Coal and Metal Mines). Your Commissioners found that the mines and dredges visited by them are well equipped with suitable and efficient' machinery; we also found that exposed and dangerous parts of machinery were securely fenced off, and statutory precautions have been taken for the safety of the men employed about the machinery. We, however, consider that in some directions it is advisable that further provisions should be made, more especially in connection with the qualifications and efficiency of the engine-drivers in charge of winding-engines, and those appliances used in connection with the raising and lowering of persons in shafts. We make the following recommendations : — (1.) That before becoming the holder of a winding-engine driver's certificate of competency under the Inspection of Machinery Act, 1908, the candidate, after having passed the examination as provided in the aforesaid Act, and before the certificate is issued to

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. him, shall practise winding men for one month under a duly certificated and competent engine-driver working at a mine; and at the expiration of the said month he shall demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Inspector of Mines and a duly qualified and certificated winding-engine driver appointed by the Inspector his capacity in raising and lowering men. No such candidate shall raise or lower, or attempt to raise or lower, men until he has passed the examination as aforesaid. (2.) That all winding-engine drivers shall be medically examined annually for heart-weakness, liability to fits, defective hearing, and vision, and shall hold a satisfactory certificate to that effect from a duly qualified medical practitioner, which must be produced at the request of the mine-manager or the Inspector of Mines or Machinery. (3.) That the words " or approved barrier " be added after the word " gate " in Regulation 1 (si) of the Amended and Additional Regulations under the Mining Act, 1908, dated the 6th September, 1911. (Messrs. Parry and Dowgray dissenting.) (4.) That no spike safety-catches, except of a type approved by the Inspector of Mines, shall be used on cages in which persons are raised or lowered. (5.) That all safety-catches, detaching-hooks, and other safety appliances used on or in connection with cages be examined and tested quarterly by a mechanical expert, and the result entered in a report-book kept for the purpose at the mine. (6.) That section 25± (28) of the Mining Act, 1908, be amended so as to provide that spring catches, or automatic, or self-acting doors, or tumblers of a suitable kind shall be affixed to the pit-head frame below the pulleys of every shaft in which a cage is used, to prevent the fall of such cage down the shaft when detached from the rope by overwinding or otherwise. (7.) That every winding-rope shall be recapped at intervals of not more than six months, and the section of the rope last cut shall be held available for inspection or for testing purposes by the Inspector of Mines or Machinery. (8.) That the end of the winding-rope shall be securely attached to the drum or drum-shaft, and that there shall be not less than three turns of the rope on the drum at any time. (9.) That Regulation 1 (sa), dated the 6th September, 1911, under the Mining Act, 1908, be amended so that the speed of winding in a shaft when a, person or persons are being raised or lowered shall not exceed one-half the ordinary speed of the engine, and shall not exceed 200 ft. per minute when the cage or conveyance is within 100 ft. of the surface, bottom, or stopping-place. (Messrs. Dowgray and Parry dissenting.) (10.) That all knocker- or signal-lines shall be fitted with a suitable lever at each level. (11.) That where dredging or other machinery can be oiled, repaired, or adjusted when stationary, no such machinery shall be oiled, repaired, or adjusted when in motion; and in cases where machinery cannot be oiled, repaired, or adjusted as aforesaid other than in motion, such oiling, repairing, or adjusting shall be done by a competent and experienced person; and no person whatever engaged on or in close proximity to dredge or miningmachinery shall wear loose or flowing outer clothing. (12.) That all wnnding-engines which are controlled by electrical power shall be supplied or fitted with a small electric lamp or other appliance for the piirpose of immediately attracting the driver's attention in the event of the power being unexpectedly cut off,

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(13.) That all boilers over ten years of age shall be subjected to an hydraulic test. (14.) That pawls and ratchet wheels shall be fitted to all mine windlasses (see Appendix No. 5). (15.) That windlasses or other suitable mechanical appliances shall be erected in stopes for the purpose of raising and lowering tools and timber (16.) After careful inquiry into the suitability of the code of shaft signals specified in the amended and additional regulations, dated the 6th September, 1911, Regulation 1 (sb), we are of opinion that such code can with advantage be improved upon, and would hereby submit, a code which is practically the same as that in use in the Commonwealth of Australia and the Transvaal. For signals between levels a system, hereinafter referred to as the "ward" system, is introduced; one ward shall be understood to consist of five consecutive levels in the one shaft: — Code of Signals for Coal and Metal Mines. 1 bell ... ... Stop or hold cage. 1 ~ ... ... Raise cage. 2 bells ... ... Lower cage. 3 ~ ... ... Men about to ascend. 4 ~ ... ... Change to hoist from a different level. 12 ~ ... ... Accident. In no case shall any person enter a cage or other conveyance until back signal, 3 bells, has been received. To meet local requirements additional signals may be used, but same must be approved by the Inspector of Mines. In addition to the ordinary winding signals the ward system must be used when ringing the cage from one level to another level. No. 1 Ward. Present No. No. of Level t. „ t> „ of Level. in No. 1 Ward. aelL ±sell - -1 ... 1 ... 1 • pause 1 2 ... 2 ... 1 ~ 2 3 ... 3 .... 3 ~ 3 4 ... 4 ... 1 ~ 4 5 ... 5 ... 1 ~ 5 No. 3 Ward. Present No. No. of Level - „ -on of Level. in No. 2 Ward. Bell - Bell - -6 ... 1 ... 2 „ 1 7 ... 2 ... 2 „ 2 And so on. When ringing the cage from a level to another level the number of the ward must be rung first, and then the number of the level in that ward. It must always be understood that there are men on the cage in the inter-level ngnals. 3. Miscellaneous. (1.) The Commission recommends that regulations be framed under the Mining Act and the Coal-mines Act providing for the supply and maintenance of ambulance appliances at mines, and is in favour of men being given facilities for practice with same; also that first-aid lectures be instituted in all mining centres. (2.) We also recommend that the constitution of the Court of inquiry (into accidents) be amended as follows : — The Warden, with one mine-manager and one representative of the miners as assessors, under both the Coal-mines and the Mining Act. 3—C. 4.

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(3.) We are of opinion that the Board of Examiners for mine-managers and other officials should be reconstituted, and consist as follows : — One representative of owners of mines, being a mining engineer One representative of the workmen employed in mines, The Inspecting Engineer of Mines, The Director of Geological Surveys of New Zealand, and The Surveyor-General of New Zealand both under the Mining and Coal-mines Acts. 11. THE VENTILATION OF MINES. We have given much consideration to the important subject of ventilation, for, apart from the legislative enforcement of hygienic measures in the interest of miners and as a matter of public policy, the ventilation of mines has an important economic aspect, since it affects to a large extent the industrial efficiency of the workmen, and consequently the cost of mineral production. With the attainment of considerable depth in metal-mining operations and consequent increasing underground temperatures, together with the more extensive use of rock-drills and explosives in mines, the necessity for a stricter standard of ventilation than that at present established by statute has been represented to us. To enable us, therefore, to obtain a thorough knowledge of the existing conditions we have inspected the underground operations at the majority of the large coal and gold mines in the Dominion, and have made numerous measurements of the quantity and temperature of the mine-air, also taking samples of air for analysis (see Appendix, Nos. 2 and 4), in addition to which the Inspectors of Mines throughout the Dominion have furnished to us copious tabulated information giving the air measurements and analyses over an extended period. As the conditions and systems of ventilation at metal-mines and collieries are often dissimilar we have in this report dealt with each separately. METAL-MINES. The recent introduction of centrifugal fans and blowers in some of the most important metal-mines, to replace ventilation by natural means formerly adopted, has proved extremely beneficial, for, in addition to the greater volume of air circulated, the supply is constant and therefore reliable, which natural and consequently intermittent ventilation was not. We are therefore of opinion that to secure satisfactory conditions it is absolutely necessary that the deep metal-mines of this Dominion should be ventilated by mechanical ventilators. Quantity Standard. The following is the statutory general rule for the ventilation of metalmines in New Zealand, as prescribed by section 254 of the Mining Act, 1908, and the additional general rule No. 94 (1) thereunder : — Ventilation to such extent as is prescribed shall be constantly produced in ever} , mine, to the intent that the shafts, winzes, sumps, levels, and working-places of such mine, and the travelling-roads to and from such working-places, may at all times be in a fit state for working and passing'therein. Ventilation shall be at the rate of not less than 100 cubic feet of air per minute for every person, and 600 cubic feet of air per minute for every horse or other animal whilst employed below ground : Provided that in any case where the Inspector is satisfied that the aforesaid rate is insufficient for the purpose of providing adequate ventilation, either throughout the underground workings generally or in any specified portions thereof, he may from time to time require such rate to be increased to such extent as in the circumstances he thinks reasonable. In the above general rule provision is made for a quantity standard only; the quality and temperature of the air is not defined, but is left to the discretion of the Inspector of Mines, and the place of measurement of the specified quantity is not stated. We found that a considerable diversity of opinion existed as to whether the quantity of air per person was to be measured at the intakes, re-

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turns, or working-places. We therefore propose to recommend a more workable and adequate standard for quality, quantity, and temperature of mine-air, and one which will fulfil the altered mining conditions of recent years without unduly harassing the mine-owners, but, on the contrary, may in some cases tend to reduce the cost of mining by providing a cooler and more invigorating aircurrent for those employed underground. A quantity standard alone {i.e., the anemometer measurement of the air), as now in operation, is subject to many practical difficulties, for the amount of air required for adequate ventilation varies according to the nature of the individual mine, and cannot be fixed at a given quantity per person at all mines alike, for the following reasons : — (a.) The variable temperature of different mines. One of the principal objects of ventilation in deep mines is the reduction of the temperature of the exposed rocks. If this were not effected the work would be unbearable. (b). The quantity of organic carbon-dioxide from men and animals is variable. (c.) The velocity of the air-current necessary to sweep away noxious gases and dust and to reduce the temperature of the rocks is dependent on the sectional area of the airways and stopes, and a specified quantity per person adequate for the confined stopes of the Thames Goldfield might be insufficient to create any observable current in the wide stopes at Waihi. (d.) An efficient distribution of the air-current and proper air-stop-pings, also brattice and doors, are necessary, otherwise a large quantity entering the mine may inadequately ventilate the workings. (<?.) The variable exudation of noxious gases from minerals and rocks, which varies in the same mine as the area of the exposed rocksurfaces. In the mines of the Hauraki Goldfield, more especially at Thames, a gaseous mixture of nitrogen and carbon-dioxide in new workings frequently emanates from fissures in the country rock and in the quartz veins, especially when northerly and easterly winds (the rain-bearing winds) prevail. The presence of these gases has been assigned to two different causes—viz., the action of acid on carbonates such as calcite, or to the dying exhalation of an extinct volcano. The following analysis of gas collected from a winze at Thames may be taken as fairly representative :- — Oxygen ... ... ... ... ... ... .... B'2 f- Nitrogen ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 546 Carbon-dioxide ... ... ... ... ... ... 37"2 100-0 The specific gravity relative to air was 119. The mine-gas is therefore equivalent to a mixture of 392 volumes of air, 372 volumes of nitrogen, and 236 volumes of carbon-dioxide. The presence of this gaseous mixture in certain of the mines is not only a source of considerable annoyance to miners, but has at times caused suspension of mining operations, and has been attended with loss of life. On this goldfield, generally speaking, the deeper the mine-workings the more abundant is the amount of gas present. On the occasion of our inspection of the low-level crosscut (1,000 ft.) to connect the Thames mines, now being driven in altered andesite country rock, we obtained further evidence of the impracticability of a uniform fixed quantity standard for all mines. At the face of the crosscut then being driven, near which was a fissure giving off water and gas, we obtained samples of mine-air. The place was ventilated by a 22 in. circular air-pipe connected with a Roots blower at the surface, which delivered 1,695 pubic feet of air per minute as near to the face as such pipe could be safely carried without destruction by blasting. Upon analysis the sample was found to contain 3-31 per cent, of CO 2 . Four men were working at or about this face, and the quantity of air per man per minute was 424 cubic feet. To dilute this CO 3 with pure air, so as to bring the

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GO a down to 1 per cent., it would be necessary for about 1,400 cubic feet of fresh air per man per minute to be delivered at that face. From the foregoing it is evident that a quantity standard should be supplemented by a quality standard as a basis for legislation; and it would be also advisable, for the purpose of fixing the quantity standard, that mines should be classified according to the amount of noxious gases produced by them, and according to the temperature of the surrounding rocks. The minimum amount of air passing into a mine should be such amount and of a specified quality proportionate to the number of men employed underground. Quality Standard. The object of a quality standard is to fix the permissible amount of airvitiation by the quantity of carbon-dioxide and of oxygen present. It has been recognized that carbon-dioxide is the best objective criterion of the sufficiency of ventilation. In Victoria and Western Australia a quality test has been fixed for metal-mines, and in Transvaal a similar test has been recommended by a Royal Commission (1910). These standards are apparently based upon that which regulates the ventilation of factories in the United Kingdom, upon the recommendation of a Home Office Factory Ventilation Committee (1900) consisting of Dr. J. S. Haldane, F.R.S., and Mr. E. 11. Osborn. This Committee recommended that the maximum permissible quantity of carbon-dioxide, when gas or oil is used for lighting, shall not exceed 20 parts by volume in 10,000 parts of air in factories. The above-mentioned oversea countries have fixed or recommended the following standards for metal-mines : — Victoria ;25 parts CO 2 by volume in 10,000 parts of air, with not less than 20 per cent, of oxygen. Western Australia :25 parts CO 2 by volume in 10,000 parts of air, except for thirty minutes after blasting, when a greater (but specified) percentage is permitted. Transvaal : 20 parts CO 2 by volume in 10,000 parts of air. It will be observed that the recommendations of the Brit ish Factories Ventilation Committee have practically been adopted by these countries. It is important to note, however, that the factories standard is not adopted in the mines of the United Kingdom, and that the British Royal Commission on Mines (1909), which included amongst its members Dr. J. S. Haldane (who formed one of the Factory Ventilation Committee of 1900, previously referred to), considered that there was no good reason for such a standard in mines, and they recommended one less strict and which they considered would be thought reasonable by those familiar with mining conditions, as follows : — llie standard of ventilation ought to be such that a lamp or candle will not burn dimly or produce &ny appreciable effect on the breathing of the men employed. We also think that any air found by analysis to contain less than 19 per cent, of oxygen, or moie than 1£ per cent, of carbon-dioxide, should be regarded as below this standard. Such a standard would rightly be regarded as unduly lax if the impurities in the air were derived largely from respiration, or lights, or blasting, and were thus liable to be accompanied by other vitiation of a serious kind. The available evidence shows, however, that in collieries and other mines in Great Britain the impurities are derived almost solely from mineral sources. There thus seems to be no good reason for a, stricter standard, and we believe that the standard which we recommend is one which would generally be regarded as reasonable. by those familiar with mining conditions. As a result of the above recommendation a section has been incorporated in the British Coal-mines Act, 1911, providing for a quality standard of not less than 19 per cent, of oxygen or more than per cent, of carbon-dioxide. We have given a considerable amount of attention to the question of a maximum percentage of carbon-dioxide, and a great number of samples were recently taken for analysis under the various conditions- of mining from nearly every metal-mine in the Dominion. With the exception of the sample from the Thames 1,000 ft. crosscut previously alluded to, where 3-31 per cent, of ground carbon-dioxide was present, the maximum percentage of CO 2 obtained in any

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sample taken was 09/, and the maximum percentage of CO was OOOd. 'alie two samples which yielded the highest percentage before mentioned were taken at the commencement of shovelling after blasting by gelignite, being the most unfavourable ventilation conditions under which men are likely to work in our mines. The increased proportion of the CO 2 and CO in the above cases would probably be produced by blasting, and the relatively small proportion of these gases obtained under the conditions would indicate that the " oxygen balance " of the explosives is in the right direction, and that, with the modern explosives of high quality such as those used, the harmful nature of the resultant gases is reduced to a minimum. The highest percentage of carbon-monoxide gas detected in the smoke when shovelling commenced at Waihi mines was 0-0025, and from Reef ton mines 0008; and, as Dr. lialdane has stated that "noticeable symptoms of carbon-monoxide poisoning were never produced with less than 0-02 per cent, of CO, since absorption ceased when the blood became saturated to a comparatively slight extent," it may reasonably be concluded that this gas is not produced in our metal-mines under normal conditions in hurtful quantities, and is never produced unless accompanied by carbon-dioxide. As a result of the above investigations, giving the percentages of noxious gases found in our mines under unfavourable conditions, we are of opinion that for New Zealand mines a carbon-dioxide standard slightly stricter than the British standard should bo fixed- viz., a maximum of 1 per cent., the British standard being \\ per cent. Underground Temperatures. In deep metal-mining operations it is sometimes necessary to circulate a larger volume of air than is required to produce, from a quality standpoint alone, adequate ventilation. For the purpose of reducing the temperature of the rocksurfaces a greater volume of air is necessary, for if this were not effected hard work would be either intermittent or unbearable in the heated atmosphere of many deep and hot mines, in which class those of the Hauraki Goldfield in this Dominion must be included. Observations made with the object of determining the rate of increment of temperature with depth in several countries where deep mining is conducted have shown considerable divergence in different places, as will be seen from the following comparisons of the results of temperature observations : — Depth required for Locality. - of Ft. Comstock, U.S.A. ... ... ... ... ... ... 33 Witwatersrand, Transvaal ... ... ... ... ... 208 British Collieries (mean) ... ... ... ... ... 64 Bendigo, Victoria ... ... ... ... ... ... 77 Ballarat, Victoria ... ... ... ... ... ...80 Thames, i\ ; ew Zealand ... ... ... ... ... ... 43 - 5 Waihi, New Zealand (approximate) ... ... ... ... 328 The relative rock-temperatures at the 1,000 ft. level at Thames and at Comstock are 83° Fain., and at Waihi approximately 85° Fahr.; but it was found that, owing to various causes, the temperature throughout the Waihi Goldfield at any particular horizon was by no means constant. During our investigations we found that the air , in the working-places at Waihi and Thames was highly saturated, generally to the extent of 90 per cent, or more, and that the wet-bulb temperature of the air in working-places ranged between the following limits at the deepest levels : — Underground Outside in Shade (Wet Bulb).1!g (Dry Bulb). Thames Goldfield (1,000 ft. level) ... ... 70° to 83-5° 55° Waihi Mine (1,000 ft. level) ... ... 61° to 82-5° 565° Waihi Grand Junction Mine (944 ft. level) ... 64-5° to 83° 55° Waihi Extended Mine (960 ft. level) ... 79-5° to 89° 50° On the Reefton Goldfield the rock-temperatures are not nearly so great, the highest temperature recorded—viz., 78° Fahr., wet bulb —being obtained at the 1,266 ft. level in the Progress Mine.

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To reduce excessive temperatures and to cause an appreciable current to circulate through the heated stopes of the mines an increased volume of air is necessary, but the extent to which underground temperature may be reduced by this means is somewhat limited, as our investigations have proved. The rate of increase in temperature of the outside air when conveyed into deep mines is demonstrated by the following measurements taken by us. During our inspection of the Thames mines we ascertained by actual measurement that atmospheric air which entered a Boots blower at the surface, and was forced at a velocity of 10 ft. per second through a thin gaivanized-iron 22 in. air-pipe down a vertical shaft 1,000 ft. in depth, and along a crosscut 670 ft. in length, increased in temperature in the space of 2 minutes 47 seconds from 55° to 76° Fahr., being at the rate of 7-64° Fahr. increase per minute. The temperature of the air surrounding the pipe did not exceed 81° Fahr. At the Waihi-Grand Junction Mine we found that the temperature of the air, while passing from the top to the bottom of a vertical downcast shaft 955 ft. in depth, increased at the time of measurement from 51° to 56° Fahr., the velocity of the air being at the rate of 16 ft. per second. In this case the temperature of the air in the shaft increased at the rate of 5° Fahr. per minute. The return air in the fan passage at the surface of this mine was 69° Fahr. (completely saturated). From the foregoing examples it will be noted that in the North Island of New Zealand, where the outside temperature is equable (the mean surface temperature at Waihi being 55-7° Fahr.), the temperature of the air descending into the mine will have attained that of the rock-surfaces within seven minutes of entering the shaft. In discussing the effect of high temperatures on miners the British Koyal Commission on Mines (1909) reported as follows : — Ihe influence of high temperatures on men is intimately dependent on the moisture in the air, and also on its motion, for the greater the dryness of the air and the greater its motion the more rapidly does warm air carry off the heat of the body and thus neutralize the ill effect of the heat. The existing evidence indicates that in still and saturated air continuous hard work is practically impossible at temperatures exceeding about 80° Fahr., even when men are stripped to the waist, and that when the air-temperature is higher than this the result is the same if the wet-bulb temperature rises above 80° Fahr. A temperature of 100° or 110° Fahr., with the air so dry that the wet-bulb temperature is only 80°, is thus no worse than air completely saturated with moisture at 80° Fahr. In other words, it is the wet-bulb temperature, and not the actual temperature of the air, tiiat matters to a man when the air-tem-perature is high. In moving air, however, a somewhat higher wet-bulb temperature can be borne than in still air. At wet-bulb temperatures exceeding about 80° Fahr. the amount of continuous work which a man is capable of doing without serious rise of bodily temperature rapidly falls off and becomes practically nothing at 90° wet bulb. As a result of our investigations and deductions from the foregoing evidence we are of opinion that, to secure a continuous distribution of the air in metal-mines adequate to reduce the temperature in hot working-places within reasonable limits, a standard or fixed temperature of 80° Fahr., wet bulb, should not be exceeded, unless it is not reasonably practicable to maintain the air at such standard, in which case a reduction of the hours of employment should be provided for. In three of the Australian States fixed standards of temperature are nowprovided for by law, as follows : — West Australia : Temperature not to exceed 80° Fahr. wet bulb, or 87° Fahr. dry bulb, without permission of Inspector in case of impracticability. Victoria : Temperature not to exceed 83° Fahr., wet bulb, without permission of Inspector in case of impracticability. Queensland : A reasonable limit of humidity shall be maintained— viz., at a temperature of 85° Fahr. by the dry bulb the wet bulb should be at least 5° less, and in case of a higher temperature from 7° to 8° less. We have the honour to make the following recommendations in connection with the ventilation of metal-mines :—

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Proposed Standard of Ventilation. An adequate amount of ventilation shall be constantly produced in every mine to dilute and render harmless noxious gases to such an extent that all shafts, crosscuts, levels, stopes, stables, and all working-places shall be in a fit state for working and passing therein. The quantity of air in the main current and in every split, and at such points as may be determined by the Inspector, shall at least once in every month be measured and entered in a book to be kept for the purpose at the mine, and the ordinary number of persons and horses in each split at one time shall also be entered in such book. For the purposes of this section a place shall not be deemed to be in a fit state for working or passing therein if the air contains more than 1 per cent, of carbon-dioxide or less than 19 per cent, of oxygen : Provided that the Minister of Mines may exempt any mine or mines from the foregoing provision on the ground that they are liable to unavoidable vitiation by carbon-dioxide from the rocks during the early stages of development. The maximum temperature of the air in any working-place, measured by a wet-bulb thermometer, shall not exceed 80° Fahr., unless firing of explosives has occurred in such place not more than twenty minutes previous to the observation of the thermometer; but the Inspector may, in writing, allow a higher limit of temperature if satisfied that it is impracticable to maintain the temperature below the above-mentioned standard, in which case the Inspector shall notify the manager in writing to reduce the temperature of the air below the standard, and if such is not complied with within seven days he shall determine the number of hours, not exceeding six, for which any person shall be employed in any such working-place within eight consecutive hours, and the number of hours so determined shall not be exceeded for a period of three calendar months whatever the temperature may be during that period. Begulations under the Mining Act shall provide for the classification of mines according to the amount of noxious gases in the working-places and to the temperature of the surrounding rocks, and the amount of air passing into a mine shall be such amount proportionate to the number of men and animals employed underground in the mine as may be prescribed by the regulations All air-measurements for the purpose of this classification shall be taken respecting mines of the class to which the mine belongs at the entrance to each ventilating-section, and shall there be not less in volume than the minimum statutory allowance per man and horse per minute. The total number of men ordinarily employed in any ventilating-section shall not exceed fifty. The obligation imposed by this section shall be in addition to, and not in substitution for, the obligation to provide an adequate amount of ventilation imposed by the foregoing paragraphs. Proposed Regulations under the Mining Act. These regulations to classify mines as follows :— Class A : All mining operations on Thames and Waihi goldfields below the 800 ft. level, 200 cubic feet per man per minute minimum, 500 cubic feet per minute for each horse. Class B : Other metal-mining operations, 150 cubic feet per man per minute minimum, 500 cubic feet per minute for each horse. We also recommend — (1.) That the manager of every mine shall keep in the office of the mine a separate plan showing the system of ventilation in the mine, and in particular the general direction of the current, the points where the quantity of air is measured, and the principal devices for the regulation and distribution of the air, and on every plan the intake airways shall be coloured blue and the return airways red. Every such plan must be on a scale

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of not less than 1 in. to 2 chains, and must be prepared by or under the supervision of a surveyor possessing the prescribed qualifications; and the manager shall, whenever requested by any Inspector, accurately mark on such plan the progress of the workings of the mine, with the ventilation thereof clearly shown up to the time of such request, and shall allow such Inspector to examine and take a copy or tracing thereof. (2.) That power be given the Inspectors to "require that all mechanical ventilation appliances be run constantly, or for such time as he thinks necessary, in all cases where he considers the condition of the mines require it, either for ventilation or reduction of temperature; and in all cases that such ventilation appliances be started and continuously run to their usual capacity for two hours before men start to work in the mine. (3.) The Inspector shall have power to order, if he considers it advisable, that, for the improvement of ventilation (a.) All rises be put up on the three-compartment or box system : (b.) Two distinct air-passes, of dimensions specified by him shall be carried up in all stopes, and maintained solely for ventilation: J (c.) That the height of rises be limited to a height specified COAL-MINES. Special attention has been devoted by us to the ventilation of coal-mines, 1 ? to state that we found that the majority of the collieries stantinteTbvT 7! lw v ? To a certain extent this opinion is substantiated by the fact that during the past fifteen years only one life has been lost as the result of an explosion of firedamp. ' by d ffl eCt "° ticed > v us was inadequate distribution of the air tLof llrS ft ms " fficie + nt use of air-stoppings and brattice, and the installation of fans of insufficient power m case of extension of the workings or during isTroduced bt ff *"? *"*! -° f proportion! ventlK is produced by fans of modern type, thirty fans being at present installed the type most favoured being the " Sirocco," » Waddle," « Sturtevant," and "Hayes Existing Standard of Ventilation. in nJw/SK 118 1S thG f a ff or -\S eneral for ventilation of coal-mines Act 1908 1 '• Prescribed by subsection (1) of section 40 of the Coal-mines depth of the coal-seams high temperatures or extreme noFoZr

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Proposed Standard of Ventilation. An adequate amount of ventilation shall be constantly produced in every mine to dilute and render harmless inflammable and noxious gases to such an extent that all shafts, roads, levels, stables, and workings of the mine shall be in a fit state for working and passing therein, and in particular that the intake airways, up to within 100 yards of the first working-place which the air enters, shall be kept normally free from inflammable gas : Provided always that an abandoned road or level not used in connection with the working of the mine shall, if properly fenced off, not be deemed to be a road or level within the meaning of this section. In the case of mines required to be under the control of a manager the quantity of air in the main current and in every split, and at such other points as may be determined by the regulations of the mine, shall at least once in every month be measured and entered in a book to be kept for the purpose at the mine, and the ordinary number of persons and horses in each split at one time shall be entered in such book. For the purpose of this section a place shall not be deemed to be in a fit state for working or passing therein if the air contains either less than 19 per cent, of oxygen or more than 1 per cent, of carbondioxide : Provided that the Minister of Mines may, by order, exempt any mine or mines from the foregoing provision on the ground that they are liable to spontaneous combustion of the coal, but subject to any conditions specified in the order. Special rules under the Act shall provide for the classification of mines according to the amount of inflammable and noxious gases in the main return airway, and the amount of air passing into the mine shall be such amount, proportionate to the number of men and animals employed underground in the mine, as may be prescribed by the special rules with regard to mines of the class to which the mine belongs, but in no case shall less than 150 cubic feet of air per minute be provided for every person, and 600 cubic feet of air per minute for every horse while employed underground. All air-measurements shall be taken at the entrance to each ven-tilation-section, and shall there be not less in volume than the minimum statutory allowance per man and horse per minute. The total number of men employed ordinarily in any ventilation-section shall not exceed fifty at one time. The obligation imposed by this section shall be in addition to, and not in substitution for, the obligation to provide an adequate amount of ventilation imposed by the foregoing section. We also recommend as follows : — (1.) That the manager of every mine shall keep in the office of the mine a separate plan showing the system of ventilation in the mine, as recommended by us for metal-mines. (2.) That where a fire is used for ventilation in any mine the return air shall be carried off clear of the fire by means of a dumb drift or airway, unless the mine is one in which inflammable gas is unknown. (3.) That where a mechanical contrivance for ventilation is used at any mine it shall not be placed beneath the surface, and means shall be provided for reversing the air-current and maintained in readiness to be put into immediate operation (see accompanying drawing, Appendix No. 6): Provided that this provision shall not be construed as preventing mechanical contrivances for ventilation being , placed underground when such contrivances are auxiliary only, and the contrivance whereby the main ventilation is produced is placed on the surface and is capable of producing such amount of ventilation as in an emergency would

4—C. 4.

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be sufficient for the safety of the persons employed underground : Provided also that this provision shall not be construed as preventing mechanical contrivances for ventilation being placed underground when such contrivances afford a complete additional system of ventilation, and when a complete ventilating appliance is provided on the surface capable of producing adequate ventilation for the mine and immediately available for use in the event of accident, and is kept in an effective condition and is used once at least in each week. (4.) That power be given the Inspector to require that all mechanical ventilation appliances be run constantly, or for such time as he thinks necessary, in all cases where he considers the condition of the mines requires it; and in all cases that such ventilation appliances be started and continuously run to their usual run-ning-capacity for two hours before men start work in the mine. (5.) That no fire or furnace shall be placed underground in any new mine or seam hereafter. (6.) That the Coal-mines Act, 1908, section 40 (45), be amended to read as follows : — If at any time it is found by the person for the time being in charge of the mine or any part thereof that, by reason of the prevalence of inflammable or noxious gases, or of any cause whatever, the mine or any place in the mine is dangerous, every workman shall be withdrawn from the mine or place found dangerous, and a fireman or deputy, or other competent person authorized by the manager or under-manager for the purpose, shall inspect the mine or place found dangerous, and, if the danger arises from inflammable gas, shall inspect the mine or place with a locked safety-lamp, and in every case shall make a full and accurate report of the condition of the mine or place; and a workman shall not, except in so far as is necessary for inquiring into the cause of danger, or for the removal thereof, or for exploration, be readmitted into the mine or place found dangerous until the same is reported by the fireman or deputy not to be dangerous. For the purposes of this section a place shall be deemed to be dangerous if the percentage of inflammable gas in the general body of the air in that place is found to be two and a half or upwards, or, if situate in a part of .a mine worked with naked lights, one and one-quarter or upwards. Every such report shall be recorded in a separate book, which shall be kept at the mine for the purpose, and shall be signed by the person who made the inspection. If a workman discovers the presence of inflammable gas in his workingplace he shall immediately withdraw therefrom and inform the fireman or deputy. 111. THE UNDERGROUND SANITATION OF MINES. In the course of our investigations we found the mines, with one or two exceptions, in a very unsatisfactory condition in regard to sanitary matters. Only one coal-mine had made any attempt to provide sanitary arrangements underground. The medical evidence is strongly in favour of such being provided to ensure the health of the miners. In regard to metal-mines we have the honour to make the following recommendations : — (1.) That suitable and sufficient latrines be provided underground in all mines not already sufficiently supplied with the same. (2.) That a reasonable number of latrines should be provided on the surface at or near the entrance of the mine, but not in the line of the intake airway. (3.) That underground latrines should be placed in such a position as to prevent, as far as possible, the effluvia from mingling with the intake air, preferably in a return airway or with a current leading directly to a return airway. (4.) That the floors should be cemented to prevent soakage, and so sloped as to run into a pit or receptacle containing sawdust, which should be emptied daily. (5.) That iron pans; having close-fitting lids which can be clamped to prevent spillage, should be used.

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(6.) That a constant and sufficient supply of sawdust, sand, ash, or other deodorant approved by the inspector of Mines should be kept at each latrine. (7.) That the roof and walls surrounding the latrine should be limewashed at regular intervals, and tne seat and tioor cleaned and disinfected at least every twenty-four hours. (8.) That screens should be provided to ensure as much privacy as possible in the use of the latrines. In regard to coal-mines we recommend— (y.) That suitable and sufficient latrines should be provided, as in metal-mines, with the exception that trucks be used instead of pans. (10.) That the position of the truck with regard to airways, the deodorants, privacy, and cleansing above mentioned, apply, as nearly as circumstances permit, to latrines in coal-mines. (11.) That after latrines are provided it should be made an offence for any person to relieve nis bowels below ground in any place in any mine other than in a latrine. (12.) That it be made an offence for any person to destroy or wilfully render any latrine in any mine unfit for use by defiling the seat or otherwise howsoever. (13.) That all latrine receptacles be emptied once in every twenty-four hours. (14.) That the number of latrines or trucks to be provided in each mine be left to the committee elsewhere in this report recommended. With regard to deodorants to be used, the evidence shows that coaldust is a sufficient deodorant in coal-mines, but chlorine disinfectants are not considered suitable for underground latrines. We are further of opinion that a supply of good wholesome drinking-water, not collected in the mine, should be provided by means of a pipe, or be kept in covered vessels at points reasonably accessible to working-places. We believe that these reforms, if carried out, would greatly improve the health and comfort of the men, and they do not involve any great outlay to provide. IV. CHANGE AND BATH HOUSES FOR MINERS. With regard to the question of providing change and bath houses at all mines, we find the request for the same to be quite unanimous. The medical evidence also emphasizes the necessity for such provisions in the interest of general health, and as a particular preventive against phthisis. The constant exposure of men to warm temperatures in more or less vitiated air underground renders a sudden change, in wet clothing, to colder conditions above ground highly injurious to health. It is therefore of primary importance that men should be able to change their wet clothing immediately on coming out of the mines under conditions of reasonable comfort. In mining communities it is, for the most part, impossible for miners' dwellings to be supplied with bathing-accommodation. To meet this want we have to recommend that both change and bath houses be provided at all mines. On this point we are pleased to be able to report that the suggestions have met with a favourable reception from the mine owners and managers. It is recognized by them that the benefits accruing to the men from such facilities are all in the interests of the industry. We have considered the question of whether the use of baths should be made compulsory. On this point we agree that such a provision would be unworkable, the consensus of opinion amongst the witnesses who represented the workers being that the men would largely avail themselves of the bathing facilities. In order that small mines may not be unduly burdened we have suggested a limit in the number of men employed for whom bathing-accommodation should be provided, but we are of opinion that there should be no limit so far as changehouses are concerned.

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We believe that all change and bath houses should be, as far as possible, erected and fitted on a uniform plan. To this end we have prepared a plan of a change and bath house which would suit all mines. Under the Mining Act, 1908, section 254, subsection (31), and the Coalmines Act, 1908, section 40, subsection (28), provision is made for dressing-rooms as follows: — If more than four persons (coal-miners) or six persons (metal-miners) are employed in the mine below ground in one shift, sufficient accommodation shall, if ordered by the Inspector, be provided above ground near the principal entrance of the mine, and not in the engine-house or boiler-house, for enabling the persons employed in the mine to conveniently dry and change their dresses, and in no case shall men be allowed to change their dresses upon a boiler. In the above no provision is made for baths, and what is specified for changehouses appears to be insufficient. We have the honour, therefore, to recommend as follows :— (1.) That bath-houses be erected at all coal and metal mines, excepting those employing ten men or under, and all open alluvial mines. (2.) That change-houses be provided at all mines. (3.) That change and bath houses to be erected be in accordance, as near as possible, with the plan hereto annexed (Appendix No. 7). (4.) That the hook-and-pulley system (as shown in sketch-plan) is the best design from a hygienic point of view and as a means of keeping each man's clotnes separate. (5.) That the tloor-space in every change-room be not less than 12 square feet for each man. (6.) That where change-houses already exist they be fitted with hooks and pulleys witnin eighteen months. (7.) That bath-houses be fitted with hot and cold showers, hand-basins, with an adequate supply of water, and suitable tubs for the men to wash their clothing. (8.) That there be one shower-bath and one basin for every five men employed underground on the largest shift at one time. (9.) That two-fifths of such shower-baths be partitioned off to secure complete privacy. (10.) That the floors of every bath-house shall be of concrete and properly drained. (11.) That the cost of erection, care, and management of change and bath houses be borne by the mine-owners. (12.) That the change and bath houses be under the control of a caretaker, whose duty it shall be to keep the same clean and attend to the drying arrangements. (13.) That no mine-owner shall be compelled to erect bath-houses until a vote be taken of the miners working underground in the mine, nor unless 75 per cent, of the men where the number is twenty or under, 50 per cent, where the number is fifty or under, and 30 per cent, where the number is over fifty request the erection of the same. (14.) That if satisfactory use is not made of the baths the manager may give notice to the workmen's inspector that he proposes to take a tally of the men using the baths for a period of one month, and if it is found that the total number using the baths is less that 20 per cent, of the men employed underground where the number does not exceed fifty, and 30 per cent, of the number who voted for the erection of the baths when the number exceeds fifty, it shall be optional with the manager whether he keeps the baths open or not. (15.) That if the baths are closed under the powers of the preceding clause no vote shall be taken to reopen the same for at least three months. (16.) That if a tally be taken under clause 14 by the manager full facilities shall be given to the workmen's inspector to take a similar tally over the same period.

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(17.) That it be made an offence for any person — (a.) Expectorating on the floor or walls of the change or bath house: (b.) Failing to keep his clothes in the place provided for them : (c.) Beating clothes or shaking the dust off the same in the change-house : (d.) Washing his clothes in a hand-basin : (c.) Smoking in change or bath house. V. MINERS' PHTHISIS. The term " miners' phthisis" is that most generally applied to the pulmonary disease which, since the introduction of rock-drills at metal-mines, has assumed such serious proportions as to necessitate the appointment in several countries of Royal Commissions to inquire into and report upon its prevalence, nature, cause, and prevention. The reports of the four most important of these Commissions are as follows :— " Report on the Health of Cornish Miners," by Dr. J. S. Haldane, F.R.S., and others. 1904. " Report on Miners' Phthisis at Bendigo," by Dr. W. Summons. 1906. " Report on Pulmonary Diseases amongst Miners," West Australia, by Dr. H. L. Cumston. 1910. " Report on the Mining Regulations Commission, Transvaal," by Drs. F. E. T. Krause and C. Porter, and A. Heymann, Esq. 1910. As these reports are practically unanimous upon the subject dealt with, and are the work of well-known specialists, it is not our intention to enter at length into the pathology or the etiology of miners' phthisis, more especially as, owing to the absence of adequate statistical and direct information regarding the prevalence of pulmonary diseases amongst miners in New Zealand, we have not been able to formulate such definite scientific opinion as is necessary for the purpose of comparison with the somewhat copious information, statistical and otherwise, regarding the occurrence and cause of diseases and deaths amongst miners, determined periodically and estimated in proportion to the living of all ages which are included in the aforementioned reports. We have, however, adequate evidence to prove that in New Zealand miners' phthisis has not assumed serious proportions, as in Transvaal, Cornwall, or Bendigo, and we believe that if the remedial measures recommended by us are adopted the disease may be much reduced, if not entirely eradicated from the Dominion. Miners' phthisis, from a clinical standpoint, may be classified into three types —viz., fibrosis, tuberculosis of the lungs, and tuberculosis of the lungs superimposed upon fibrosis. Fibrosis is non-infectious, being a pure fibrosis of the lungs, non-tuber-culous in origin, and, when contracted at metal-mines, is silicosis, a disease brought about solely by the mechanical action of silica and other rock-dust particles without absorption of them, and with no poisoning of the system generally. It is of purely local origin, and continues as such till tuberculosis, with its specific bacillus.is superadded. . Tuberculosis of the lungs, or consumption, the infecting agent being a bacillus conveyed only through the sputum of infected persons. The actual infection is more likely to be contracted above ground than at work. Superimposed tuberculosis of the lungs, a combined type, being a tuberculous infection on a fibroid lung, the tubercle bacilli having been inhaled by a person suffering from fibrosis, in which condition susceptibility exists owing to the low resisting-power consequent upon the lung-tissue being impaired by the action of dust. To this type is almost invariably due the deaths ascribed to miners' phthisis. Miners' phthisis has been confined throughout the world almost entirely to those employed at metal-mines. Coal-miners display marked relative freedom from superimposed tuberculosis, due no doubt to the fact that the particles of

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coaldust inhaled are much larger, also less hard and angular, than silica or rock dust, and on that account are, when inhaled, more likely to be deposited on the mucous secretion of the larger bronchial tubes; also, when absorbed into the lung-tissue, they do not possess the irritating character of the silica particles. Owing to the absence of uniformity in the classification of the deaths from lung-diseases, and the irregularity of the periods for which the returns are available, we are unable to furnish for the purpose of comparison a perfectly parallel statement showing the proportionate death-rate by miners' phthisis in New Zealand and the other countries, but the following official returns are the best evidence available :— Cornwall, England, 1900-2. Mortality-rate per 10,000 Cornish tin-miners :— Phthisis ... ... ... ... ... 5007 Pneumonia ... .. ... ... ... 303 Total .. ... ... ... ... 53-10 BENDiao (Victoria), 1906-9. Mortality-rate per 10,000 quartz-miners :— Tuberculosis ... ... ... ... ... 8804 As against 1582 for all males in Victoria aged twenty-one years and upwards (excluding miners). Queensland and West Australia, 1909. Mortality-rate per 10,000 miners :— Queensland. West Australia. Phthisis ... ... ... ... 22-6 31-06 Pneumonia ... ... ... ... 12-7 1499 Miners'phthisis ... ... ... 2-8 3"21 38-1 49-26 Transvaal. Mortality-rate per 10,000 white miners, including surface workers at mines in the Witwatersrand District. (Note. —-The surface workers constitute between 54 and 58 per cent, of the total number of miners employed) : — 1905. 1906. 1907. Phthisis (of all types) ... ... ... 88 68 848 New Zealand. Mortality-rate per whole population of males (vide Registrar-General's return). No record o*' the occupation of the deceased was given : — 1910. 1909. 1908. Pneumoconiosis ... ... ... 9 6 1 Miners'phthisis ... ... ... 1 10 2 Totals ... ... ... 10 16 3 Proportion per 10,000 males ... ... 019 0-29 0-059 Assuming all deceased were quartz-miners (surface or underground workers) the proportion per 10,000 would be ... 231 42"9 7"2 In the absence of adequate statistical information we desire to draw attention to the following extracts from the evidence by medical practitioners upon the principal quartz-mining fields in this Dominion :— Dr. G. Lapraik, in general practice among Thames miners, stated that— The cases oi'- miners' complaint which have come under my notice have been contracted some time, and I have not seen during the last four years any fresh case of true miners' complaint; I found the disease diminishing. Dr. Denis Walshe, Medical Officer in charge of the Thames Hospital for four years and a half, stated that— Chronic lung-disease is very prevalent at Thames. Two years ago I examined forty-five to fifty men, and found that eight men, or 16 per cent., had that disease, but Ido not desire that to be taken as typical. The persons examined were old miners, who had lived at Thames for many years.

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Dr. E. H. Scott, in general practice at Reefton for seventeen years, stated that— As regards particular instances [of tuberculosis] in the Reefton district, the number of cases is very small for scientific purposes, and broad conclusions drawn from individual cases are apt to be very misleading. A number of deaths from the disease in Reefton have been those of Cornish miners, who have really been damaged in their constitutions and their lungs by working underground at too early an age. I have not noticed an increase in Reefton since 1 came there. We have had a number of cases of tuberculosis, but several of them are direct importations from Australia. Men come here simply to recuperate. I know of cases in which men have come and died here as the result of tuberculosis contracted in Australia. I do not think the men here now stop long enough at mining to contract pneumoconiosis. Dr. W. Grattan Guinness, of Auckland, formerly in practice at Waihi, stated — I have not been in practice at Waihi during the last five years, but I will say that during my five years and a half's residence there I had more cases of pneumoconiosis from the batteries (i.e., quartz-mills —dry crushing) than from the mines, though there were also a number of cases from the mines. I think the disease was fairly evenly spread over the whole period. Dr. W. A. Conlon, Medical Superintendent of the Reefton Hospital for thirteen years, stated that— During the ten years ended 31st December, 1909, fifty-five men in the Reefton district died of miners' disease; for the two years and a half ended 18th October, 1911, sixteen died from miners' disease. According to the evidence of Dr. Conlon it would appear that miners' phthisis in the Reefton district existed to a greater extent than elsewhere in New Zealand. From the foregoing evidence it is apparent that the disease has not in New Zealand assumed such proportions as indicated by the returns from Cornwall, Bendigo, Queensland, West Australia, and the Transvaal. In proof to the same effect it should be stated that during the period between the 10th October, 1908, and the 21th December, 1909, when pneumoconiosis (a term which formerly was used to classify a group of diseases all similar in character, amongst which miners' phthisis is included) was a disease in contracting which a miner was entitled to compensation under the Workers' Compensation Act, not a single claim was made for compensation in respect of the disease. The preventive measures considered by us, and which have been generally recommended by other Royal Commissions elsewhere, are as follows : — (1.) The compulsory use of dust-preventing appliances, such as sprays, waterblasts, and atomizers. (2.) Improved ventilation of mines. (3.) Use of bath and change houses at the mines. (4.) Prevention of indiscriminate spitting, and the destruction of tuberculous sputum. (5.) Definite treatment of those affected with tuberculosis of the lungs in an advanced form. (6.) Improved housing conditions and disinfection of work-places and living-quarters. (7.) The exclusion from work underground of all persons infected with tuberculosis of the lungs. The use of dust-preventing appliances is provided for under section 19 (m) of the Mining Act Amendment Act, 1910, viz. :— There shall at all times be used in and about the battery or place where such crushing or drPHnsj is done an adequate jet or spray of water, or such other appliances as in the opinion of the Inspector will effectually keep the air pure and prevent dust circulating in the place where such operations are being carried out, and for this purpose an adequate supply of water shall be provided. In addition to which it would be advisable that an approved waterblast be used immediately after blasting in mines, a provision made compulsory in Transvaal for the purpose of allaying the noxious gases, smoke, and dust caused by blasting in close ends. The use of a waterblast of the James type is recommended

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by the Transvaal Royal Commission, and is thus described in Dr. Haldane's " Report on the Health of Cornish Miners " : — At the mouth of the level a piece of 6 in. iron pipe or a small cylinder, provided with a side tap, is let into the ordinary 2 in. iron pipe for carrying the compressed air for the drill (vide Diagram 1 and Fig. 1). Before the blast this is filled with water through the side tap from a cistern after the compressed air has been turned off. Immediately after the blast the compressed air is suddenly turned full on. The water is thus driven along the pipe with great velocity, and a mixture of finely divided water and air is discharged from the open end, which is directed towards the face which has just been blasted. By this means the dust is entirely cleared from the last 30 ft. or 40 ft. back from the blast, the air leaving quite clear immediately after. If a ventilating-pipe (vide Diagram 2, Fig. 1) is carried forward about as far as the compressed-air pipe, any dust which has been driven out beyond the reach of the jet can be rapidly carried off. This plan has the great merit that it implies scarcely any trouble, and no extra apparatus except the piece of 6 in. pipe and tap for filling it. Ihe rock blasted is also thoroughly wetted, so that no dust is produced in shovelling it. The water partially washes out from the air any nitrous fumes which may be present, but, of course, no carbonic oxide, and for this reason, if no other, a ventilat-ing-pipe is desirable in case!) where the level or rise has been driven more than a few fathoms beyond the air-current. Diagrams of these appliances accompany this report. The more adequate ventilation of all mines to a standard of quality, quantity, and fixed temperature is dealt with under the heading of " Ventilation " in this report. The use of bath and change houses is elsewhere recommended by us. The prevention of indiscriminate spitting appears to be a matter requiring urgent attention by local bodies and by the Government. The dissemination of directions regarding the destruction of tuberculous sputum is very necessary. Improved housing conditions for miners and the definite treatment of tuberculous persons are matters which are being strongly advocated by many medical practitioners of this Dominion. The exclusion from work underground of persons infected with tuberculosis of the lungs is a matter insisted upon by all authorities. We therefore make the following recommendations : — Preventive Measures. Every working-place where rock-drills are in use shall be furnished with an approved waterblast or suitable appliance for laying the dust, smoke, and gases after a blast; and no man shall return to an end, rise, winze, or other close place until the air is free from dust, smoke, and fumes caused by blasting. Measures of Relief. That miners suffering, or suspected to be suffering, from fibrosis or superimposed tuberculosis of the lungs shall have free medical advice from the Government, such advice to be given by a medical expert appointed for the purpose. That in addition to the homes and sanatoria already established adequate relief be provided from the Gold-miners' Relief Fund for those suffering from miners' phthisis, which for that purpose shall be subsidized £1 for £1 by the Government. The qualifications for the above measures of relief to be five years' residence in New Zealand immediately prior to the application for relief, two years and a half of which shall have been occupied in mining underground or working at a crushing-mill in New Zealand. VI. THE PROFITABLE UTILIZATION OF THE SOFT BITUMINOUS AND LIGNITE COALS OF THE WESTPORT DISTRICT OF NEW ZEALAND. The question of the profitable utilization of the soft coals of the Westport district is one upon which little evidence was forthcoming. Upon investigation we found that, approximately, there is an area of 5,000 acres of unmined soft coal carrying seams varying in thickness from 5 ft. to 20 ft. In addition to this there was produced in 1910 from the Westport

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district, from 831,200 tons of coal mined, 230,049 tons of slack, equivalent to 27-7 per cent, of the total output. It is a reasonable assumption that at least 25 per cent, of the output of the mines in the future will be slack. It was with a view of trying to discover a use or market for this otherwise waste product that our investigations were mainly directed. So far as we could learn there have been only two uses to which this slack has been put—firstly, as bunker coal for steaming purposes; and, secondly, for the manufacture of briquettes and eggettes at Westport by the Government. In regard to the former the market is limited, and the demand is not nearly sufficient to utilize the large quantity of slack produced during the operations of mining. A small quantity may in the future be used for manufacture into coke, the Westport Coal Company having recently erected six coke-ovens at Granity in connection with their Millerton mine. But, again, the New Zealand market in this direction is limited, and the demand for coke is not likely to absorb any great "quantity of the surplus soft coal and slack. Our attention has been directed to a new steam boiler in which pulverized coaldust is used as a fuel. If this type of boiler were to come into general use in New Zealand no doubt a market would be created for slack coal, but, so far as we are aware, no such boilers are in use in New Zealand, and there is nothing to indicate that they will come into such considerable use in the near future as to create any such market. Dealing with the question of the manufacture of briquettes and eggettes by the Government, the evidence before us goes to show that these operations have not resulted in a financial success, though the article produced is of a good marketable quality. The works were established in 1907, and up to the present the bulk of the output has been used by the Government Railway Department. The returns for the year ending 31st March, 1911, show that out of a total of 8,564 tons manufactured 7,343 tons were used by the Railway Department, 4 tons by other Government Departments, and 1,217 tons by the general public. It has been shown in evidence that the value per ton of briquettes and eggettes for railway purposes is less by 2s. and Is. 6d. respectively than that of screened coal. The following analyses made by the Dominion Analyst show the relative values in calories and evaporative powers between coal from different mines and briqiiettes :—

The outside market has been particularly small. It has been suggested that this market has not been sufficiently pushed, but the evidence before us does not 5—C. 4,

Mines. I ; j A o rO r5 p <D K o ,o 5 o p -a rH H © j i rg 3 rB"5 CO -rf! -p O H M O O c o bl: -fa a o rEvaporatii in Po Water at ! "3 '•£> IB u o rd re Power mds; 2I2°Fahr. <3 fl c c •J s-s 1 »r?!8 Cm CG* o 6 " i 'i i Coal. Denniston 57-36 56-62 55-73 58-75 39-61 38-40 40-08 37-24 i i 1-55 4-30 2-37 3-61 1-48 0-68 1-82 o-4a 2-18 0-56 0-55 1-74 58-84 57-30 57-55 59-15 8,230 7,762 7,923 7,708 15-35 14-48 14-78 14.38 9.21 8-69 8-87 8-63 Millerton 57-67 60-50 41-14 34-39 < ( 0-91 0-83 0-28 4-28 4-62 3-92 57-95 64-78 8,227 8,135 15-35 15-18 9-21 9-11 Seddonville . . 51-12 52-27 42-24 41-20 I ' 4-36 4-65 2-28 1-88 4-94 4-99 53-40 54-15 7,402 7,345 13-81 13-73 8-29 8-24 Seddonville — Briquettes.. Eggettes .. 48-84 46-93 41-46 42-05 5-54 8-03 4-16 2-99 3-62 3-74 7,249 6,969 13-53 13-00 8-12 7-80

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justify such a suggestion. Moreover, the loss does not lie in the lack of sufficient outside market, but in the cost of manufacture. We find that the best binder is pitch. The proportion of pitch used in the production of briquettes or eggettes is, approximately, 8 per cent. The average cost of pitch imported is £4 12s. per ton. This, on an 8-per-cent. basis of pitch, gives the cost of pitch per ton of briquettes or eggettes at 7s. 7-98 d. The total cost of manufacture is 16s. 6-69 d. To this must be added the cost of freight, handling, general trading expenses, interest, and depreciation, amounting to 11s. 35d.; making a total cost of £1 7s. 9-16 d., leaving a loss of 6s. l-3d. per ton. It does not appear to us that any material saving can be effected in the manufacture. It was suggested that the labour of one man might be saved, but this would make no appreciable difference in the cost of production. We were unable to obtain locally satisfactory quotations for pitch. The price quoted was much higher than that above mentioned, but even if pitch could be landed at half the former cost, which is impossible, there would still be a considerable loss on the manufacture of briquettes and eggettes with pitch as a bond. We made inquiries into the question of other bonds, and it does not appear that any bond would enable briquettes or eggettes to be produced on a payable basis. One new patent bond was brought under our notice, with some reports thereon, but this was in the experimental stage only—that is to say, no quantity of briquettes or eggettes has been manufactured with this bond and placed on the market, the sample submitted to us having been hand-made in a laboratory. The cost of this bond, as estimated by the patentee, is about 2s. 3d. per ton of briquettes or eggettes, as against 7s. 7-98 d. for pitch as bond, leaving an apparent balance in its favour of ss. 4-98 d. per ton. Excluding the question of a working profit, this saving would not meet the loss per ton on the manufacturing cost. We have no evidence of the calorific properties of briquettes produced by this bond. The most that is said is contained in a letter from Professor Easterfield—namely, that " the briquettes, after three days' keeping, were sufficiently firm for commercial purposes, and burnt satisfactorily in an ordinary fireplace." In the absence of a more exhaustive test and a chemical analysis of the calorific value of these briquettes this is not sufficient to warrant us in recommending this bond, nor is there any guarantee that briquettes or eggettes can be produced at a payable price and command a sale. It has been suggested, further, that a more modern plant would effect a saving, but no definite evidence or opinion could be obtained on that point. In view of the foregoing facts we have to report, briefly,— (1.) That there is at present a considerable quantity of slack going to waste in the Westport district; that at least 25 per cent, of the coal still to be produced in the district will be slack, and, in addition to this, there is a large area of unmined soft coal. (2.) That this slack and soft coal are suitable for briquetting, bunker coal, coking purposes, or to be used as fuel for a specially constructed boiler. (3.) That the cost of manufacturing briquettes with a pitch bond precludes the briquettes from competing in the market with coal as a fuel. (4.) That it has not been shown to us that any other bond is available which will allow briquettes to compete successfully against coal. (5.) That with regard to bunker coal and coke the market is limited, and we see no prospect of any great increase in the demand at present. (6.) That the new type of boiler above mentioned appears to be suitable for the consumption of slack or pulverized soft coal, bnt it is not at all probable that existing boilers will at present be displaced by the new type to any great extent. We would, however, recommend that consideration be given to these boilers where new boilers are being installed or old ones replaced by new.

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We would suggest the advisability of offering a premium or bonus for some process, including a suitable bond, which will produce briquettes or eggettes of a good quality from New Zealand soft coals or slack, and at a marketable price. Conclusion. In conclusion, we are asked to say " whether any, and if so what, fresh legislation is necessary to give effect" to our recommendations. We have already, under the various heads of our report, pointed out the amendments in the different Acts necessary to bring about the changes and reforms we have advocated. So far as we are aware no fresh legislation is required other than the amendments hereinbefore referred to. Given under our hands and seals, at Wellington, this sixteenth day of December, one thousand nine hundred and eleven. N. D. Cochrane. John Dowgray. J. S. Evans. George Fletcher. Herbert S. Molineaux. W. E. Parry. Frank Reed.

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MINORITY REPORT. Willie we agree in tne mam with most ox the conclusions arrived at by the Commission, we wisn to express our views upon severai important questions on wnien we are not in agreement witn tne majority of the Commissioners. one of tne most important questions wnicii tne Uommission nas been called upon to consider is that dealing witn tne prevention ox miners' pntnisis. While we tnniK tnat some of tne recommendations made oy tnis Commission, wnen carried into eiiect, will mitigate tne disease to some extent, we nave learned irom tne evidence and observation tnat tne two cmei contributory causes ox tnis maxady are tne contract system and tne nignt shut. in many instances, apart Irom tne cost in money, a great deal of time is wasted and numerous iives are iost in trying to deal eneetivexy witn certain evils without legislating to embrace tne most important contributory causes, and iience we find we are dealing witn tne enect instead ox witn tue cause. Aitnough tnis question oi tne contract system was mentioned in tne iindmgs of the liritisn Commission and recommended xor consideration, we are basing our conclusions in tnis report upon tne evidence gatnered ay tne present tonsmission, wnicn evidence undouutediy constitutes a strong indictment ox tne methods in vogue. Ail the witnesses on benaix ox tne workmen admitted before tne Commission that the contract work and night shut were responsible xor bad health and the major portion of tne accidents, notwithstanding tnat their earnings are a little larger under the contract system than unuer tne daywage system. Knowing, as the miner docs, tnat nis occupation is hazardous, dangerous, and unhealtny, in order to launch out in some otner avenue ox employment he endeavours to try and make a cneque, and taKes full advantage ox tne time spent underground to accomplish the object in view. Ine result is we hnd the men impatient; the pace, as a rule, is set by tne strongest man physically in tne contract party, and each member of tne party is expected to do tne same amount of worn:, and in the attempt the last particle ox energy is expended. JNot oniy is the '" rushing " a cause of serious accidents, but, as a consequence of the hard nature of the work and the vigour witn which it is sustained, the men themselves are frequently so tired that they spend the largest portion of their time in bed when out of the mine, which time should be devoted to exercise and health-seeking. When to fatigue is added severe strain the eriects may be lamentable, as, for example, the pushing of heavy trucks, each of which weighs from 1 ton to iss cwt., and the lifting of neavy machines, which ail tends to lower the vitality and wreck the constitution. The worn appearance of the men in those districts where these systems are in vogue is a practical exemplification of the loss of vitality. This was noticed by tne members of the Commission at Waihi, and in order to ascertain the state of the health and condition of the men in general they made a requisition to the Government to appoint a medical expert to join the Commission. We regret that the Government did not see tit to grant the request, for had this been done we feel sure the conclusions would have been more satisfactory. Dr. Conlon, in giving evidence before the Commission, said, " The contractors are the men who suffer most; the good miners always go under quicker." In answer to a question by the Chairman on the subject, he further stated that the more the men exerted themselves the more likely they were to get the disease, and that " the men who worked hard frequently go away from the district because their health is affected. A , man cannot work underground and extend himself as he can on the surface. If you look through a list of the men who have suffered from the disease you will find that they are the men who worked as contractors." Continuing his evidence, in reply to a Commissioner, he said that the work lowers a man's vitality, and he runs into places without waiting for the dust to settle, thus taking bigger risks; further, that the average age of men dying in the Reef ton district, during a period of twelve years and a half, would probably work out at fifty-five.

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We also quote valuable information by Thomas Oliver, M.1)., .F.8.C.P., from his work on " Diseases of Occupation." He quotes Dr. H. JBremridge, who is on the medical stall' of the Kolar Goldiieid, India, as follows : — in the Kolar gold-mines there are 40,000 coolies employed; the rock is hard. Dr. Bremridge went to India expecting to meet with miners' phthisis, but failed to find evidence of the disease except m men who came from the Transvaal, lie fount/ that the native and white men kept good health, lie attributes the freedom from miners' phthisis partly to the fact that tne-men take more leisure, and are not so eager to make a fortune as the miners in the Transvaal. Dr. Oliver aiso says, — Ihe miners on the Hand are paid for piecework; they are impatient, and as they prefer to run risks some persons may say the men are not altogether to blame. They rush back too soon after blasting to recommence work in the particular part of tlie mine, the air of which contains a slight excess of UO% when the explosion has been complete, and always a large quantity of dust. They neither allow tiie smoke to clear , away nor the dust to settle. These circumstances show the desire on tiie part of the men to run these risks in order to earn one or two shillings a day more, not only in this country, but in every other country.where tins system is in operation; and we are of opinion that tne system is aiso responsible for the baa distribution of air, as tne men do not seem to give any consideration to the ventilation, in case doing so may impede them in their work. They push on for footage and tonnage, which determines the amount of wages they receive, and thereuy assist the companies in evading the provision of adequate ventilation. In many cases it is more economical for tne companies to give a prize to the men than establish proper ventilation. We contend that any system which embraces a decoy for men to run risks underground—returning too soon after tiring, &c. —is dangerous to health, limb, and life. Circumstances show that the broken rock tends, after blasting, to imprison poisonous gases. The subsequent liberation of these becomes a source of danger when the work is carried on before the air of that vicinity is perfectly clear from dust and ail poisonous gases. We have observed that accidents are tar more numerous in the districts where mining is carried on under the contract system than on day wages. This was also observed by Mr. Cbutts, the late Inspector of Alines for the Hauraki District. He reported in the New Zealand Mines Record of the 17th January, 1902. He brought a charge against File and Ferry, at the Warden's Court, of having committed a breach ol the Mining Act by neglecting to tell their mates, who were relieving them on shift, as to an unexpioded enarge. Mr. Coutts pointed out that he had brought the present case forward as a warning, especially in view of the fact that there had been more accidents at the Waim Mine during the last six months than had been the case for ten years previously. He was sure these accidents were in a large measure due to the contract system, as the men went to work hurriedly and they left as quickly, and somehow there did not seem to be the amount of care exercised when explosives were being dealt with that was necessary. In our opinion this statement by Mr. Coutts (who had had years of experience) amply proves that the contract men do their work more hurriedly, and consequently more risk is incurred, and at the same time shows that more accidents happened for the last six months than had been the case for the previous ten years, considering the ten years mentioned was worked on the day-wage system. Here we quote Thomas Oliver again. He said, in regard to phthisis amongst Cornish tin-miners, — Taking this view of the malady, tin-miners' phthisis can be to a large extent prevented by laying of the dust by water-spraying, by the men not returning too soon to the particular part of the mine after the use of explosives, and by care taken in removing the ore. This authority advises, not only in one place in his valuable work, but right through his book, that one chief factor in the prevention of the malady is for the men not to return too soon after firing, and our contention is that any system of work that allures men to run these risks is a danger to the men employed and a menace to the community.

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The night shift, more commonly known as the " dog watch, ,, is abhorred by ail miners, and is known to be an enemy to the health and vitality of the worker. it was unanimously agreed by the Commission that it was detrimental to the health of the worker under the most favourable conditions, and yet the majority did not feel disposed to recommend its abolition. According to the evidence men become very nervous on this shift, owing to the broken rest and the unnatural times at which they are compelled to take their meals, and consequently they are not in a fit state to exercise, that care which mining demands in dealing witn dangerous grounds and the use of explosives. The night shift, especially when added to the contract system (which undoubtedly fosters the continuation of night shift and makes it more frequent), has a most injurious effect on a man's health, hence his constitution becomes run down and leaves the worker an easy victim to phthisis. Dr. Oliver said, " When a man is low in vitality it predisposes him to disease." We here quote Dr. Frazer-Hurst, of Waihi, who stated in evidence before the Commission — My first experience with regard to accidents in Waihi was this : that 1 found almost in every case 1 underestimated the duration of a man's incapacity as compared with what I had been accustomed to regard as sufficient in other places. That was for two reasons : firstly, because the men did not seem to have the recuperative power that one might expect from that type of man; then, a man might be well enough to return to ordinal y work, but he would not be fit to go back to a hazardous occupation such as mining, where other men's lives depend on his being well. He further stated, — My work in the Old Country brought me into touch with men in outdoor occupations, such as shipyards and docks, and there my impression was that the duration of an injury is shorter than it is here. He also stated that boils and poisoned hands were very common here, which, he said, was usually a sign of lowered vitality. Then, in regard to this matter of lowered vitality he further said, — One thing which has struck me forcibly in regard to that [lowered vitality] is the nervousness that one meets with in able-bodied men. It has occurred to me that the broken rest that a man on the shift system has to content himself with has something to do with it. They do not seem to get accustomed to a set hour for sleeping before it is changed again and they have another sleeping-time, and thus their rest is not always so complete. I think that also affects the women in the district. It has struck me while 1 have been in practice here how very neurotic they are, and I have put that down to the broken rest as well as to the anxiety in regard to accidents; that is the effect those things have upon their general health. Then, of course, the working at irregular hours causes digestive troubles, as does also the frequent alteration of the meal-times. We also quote from an essay by Mr. McCombie, mine-manager, who received the third prize from the Government for his essay on " The Present Condition and Future Prospects of the Mineral Resources of New Zealand, and the Best Means of Fostering their Development " :— Night shift.- —Generally speaking, this shift begins at 12 midnight, and terminates at 8 a.m. It is variously termed the " dog watch "or the " graveyard shift, , ' and it is cordially hated by every one who is unfortunate enough to come under its rule. Speaking from a long experience of the night shift, I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that it is injurious to the health and well-being of those who have to work it, and it is not profitable to employers. Turning out at 11 p.m., after a restless sleep of a few hours, men are not fit to undertake the duties of an ordinary miner, with its everpresent danger, and the work they perform is not up to the required standard either in quantity or quality. It is an indisputable fact that towards the end of a week spent on the night shift the average miner is scarcely able to drag one leg after the other, and he is working under protest all the time. When in this condition it is absurd to expect a man to do a fair eight-hours' " graft," or to protect himself from the risks incidental to his occupation. As a rule, there are more accidents in a mine on the night shift than is the case upon either of the other shifts, and I attribute this entirely to the fact that the victims of such accidents are so enervated through want of rest as to be incapable of taking ordinary precautions to save themselves. Of course, it ■is absolutely necessary to employ three shifts in a great many instances in connection with mining and milling gold- and silver-bearing ores, and in this respect it would be unreasonable to lay down a cast-iron rule for the guidance of mine-owners. At the same time I think the three-shift system is often carried out where it could be avoided to a very large extent, and it is a blot on our twentiethcentury civilization to permit its continuance wherever it can be economically abolished.

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Another important matter which we wish to bring under your notice is the payment of workmen's inspectors. The miners employed in any mine are entitled, under subsection (48) of section 40 of the Coal-mines Act, 1908, and section 264 of the Mining Act, 1908, to appoint two persons to inspect the mine on their behalf at least once a month, in order to ascertain its condition. This provision has not been taken advantage of to the extent we would wish. Various reasons have been advanced as to why the rule has not been carried out. All witnesses examined on behalf of both management and workmen agree as to the benefits to be derived by observing this rule, but they differ in their reasons as to why the appointments were not made and the examinations carried out. Some miners' unions gave as their reasons that they could not afford to pay two men, while others contended that the workmen's inspectors appointed under the Act had no power, and therefore they did not see any reasons for making the appointments. But by far the greater number suggested that the chief reason for this rule being neglected was that the workmen who might be appointed, and who might give an adverse report on the conditions prevailing in the mine, were afraid of being victimized. Although no cases could be cited in which dismissal of workmen under such circumstances had actually occurred, the witnesses maintained that there were more ways than one of making men suffer apart from discharging them. Further, a remarkable feature about the reports brought before Coroner's inquests in this Dominion by workmen's inspectors is their unanimity of " No blame being attachable to any one." We are inclined to think that there are some grounds for the men being afraid to express an honest opinion. Minemanagers are anxious for the wor*kers to appoint inspectors under existing conditions, and they deny that there is any ground for being afraid of unfair treatment. We have given some attention to this subject, and we feel it would be better for all concerned if the workmen's inspectors were appointed and paid in the same manner as prevails in France. We have no hesitation in saying that if the same system were adopted in this Dominion it would give entire satisfaction to all concerned. The French miners have had many years' experience of the system, which entitles them to appoint a person from their own number who shall devote his whole attention to the examination of the mines. Those who are appointed are generally thoroughly experienced miners of more than average intelligence, and' so far as we can learn, this examination has given absolute satisfaction, and the French miners believe that it has done more to increase the safety and comfort of the miners than the general inspection by the Government Inspector of Mines. The Governments of Britain, Germany, and Austria have been making careful inomiries as to how the system works in France, and the miners of those countries are also urging their Governments to give them powers similar to those possessed by the French miners in any future mining legislation. It has been argued by the members of the present Commission that this would remove the control of the workmen's inspectors from the hands of the miners themselves by making them Government officials; but this is not so in France. It is not a dual inspection; and, although the Government pays these inspectors, it in turn recovers their salaries from the mine-owners. The Government under these circumstances has no control over them. It has also been argued that friction might arise between the minemanagers and the workmen's inspectors, or between the Government Inspectors of Mines and the workmen's inspectors: but we would point out tha,t under both the Coal-mines and Mining- Acts the workers have the right to appoint inspectors, and the only difference would be that the Government would pay them instead of the miners; also that they would be permanently employed rather than occasionally, as at present. This would place them in a Bosition to exnress their opinions freely, independent of any one. We append an extract from the French law on the subject:— The French law of Bth July, 1890 (amended by the laws of 25th March, 1901. and of 9th May. 1905), provides for the election of delegates by the working-miners for the regular inspection of the mines. The duties of these delegates are to examine twice a month all the underground workings in their districts and places where serious

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accidents have occurred. The districts are fixed by the prefect, who is guided in his decision by the reports made by the Government Inspectors and the statements submitted by the mine-owners. As to the extent of these districts, it has been laid down that the workings belonging to one and the same owner, which can be inspected carefully in not more than six days, form one inspection district. In the Pas-de-Calais Coalfield, where, according to M. Leon, the Chief Inspector of this district, about 65,000 men are employed below the surface, there are seventy of these delegate inspectors. The reports made by the delegates must be entered in a book kept by the owner for that particular purpose. The owner may make his remarks on the delegate's report. Both delegate and owner must immediately forward a copy of their remarks or reports to the Prefect of the Department, who must communicate them to the Mines Inspectors. The Government Mines Inspectors have no direct communication with the delegates. They must not give them orders. Thus the delegates do not form a part of the oflicial French mines inspection; they are described in an order issued by the Minister for Public Works, dated 17th February, 1891, as visiteurs rapporteurs (visiting reporters). The Government Inspectors may require the presence of the miners' delegate on their visits of inspection. The number of days employed for inspection by the delegate varies according to the size of his district. The maximum is twelve days. Accidents necessitating the presence of the delegate are not reckoned in the number of days employed by him in inspection work. Electorate, Eligibility, Bemuneration. —The electorate is composed of all actual underground workers of French nationality. Eligibility : Any elector having worked for not less than five years underground (tw r o of which must have been spent in the district or an adjacent district, provided that ten years has not elapsed since he last worked) is eligible if he is twenty-five years of age, able to read and write, and has not been guilty of any infraction of certain mining laws and articles of the penal code. Delegates and deputy-delegates are elected for the space of three years. The remuneration varies. It is computed by the number of days spent in examining the pits. If these days number twelve per month (the maximum) the delegate receives twenty-four times the daily wage of a first-class hewer. No delegate is supposed to have spent less than ten days per month in inspecting mines in which 250 men are underground; these ten days give him the right to a monthly salary equal to twenty times the daywage of a first-class hewer. Services rendered in case of accident, <fee, are paid extra, but no delegate can receive more than thirty times the above-mentioned standard daywage. (This standard wage is fixed yearly by the prefect.) The delegate's salary is paid by the Government with moneys contributed by the mine-owners. We therefore recommend for your consideration— (1.) Prohibition of the midnight shift. (2.) Abolition of the contract system. (3.) Payment of workmen's inspectors. W. E. Parry. John Dowgray. I concur in the above report so far as it relates to the payment of workmen's inspectors. N. D. Cochrane. Wellington, 16th December, 1911.

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APPENDIX.

No. 1.—Table showing Number of Deaths from Accidents at New Zealand Mines during the Years 1906 to 1911.

Summary for Ten Years ended 31st December, 1910 (with Addition for 1911 to Date).

Frank Reed, Inspecting Engineer, Mines Department.

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(Compiled from the New Zealand Mines De i Cause of Accident. 1906. apartment j 1907. spartment's Annual Reports.) 1907. 1908. 1909. ■ J _J 19IH. 1911. : ■. _ _j __i I ■ _J At Metalliferous M lines. 'ines. Explosion .. .. .. .. I ■ 3 Fall of ground .. .. .. .. | 3 In shafts .. .. .. .. .. < 1 Miscellaneous : Underground .. .. j ,, On surface .. .. .. j 1 About dredges ... .. .. j 6 2 2 3 2 3 2 1 2 6 1 15 8,8£0 1-69 3 2 1 2 6 1 r 2 -, 2 " 1 12 3 5 .. 1 .. ■■] 1 5 3 3 2 4 1 14 15 7 7,651 8,121 1-E3 1-84 I . .. 2 1 3 1 5 2 2 3 Total killed .. .. ! 14 Number of employees .. .. .'. 8,716 Rate of persons killed per 1,000 employed .. I 1-60 7 9.389 0-84 At Coal-mines. 4 1 5 3,894 1-28 1 4 10 .11 1 2 5 1 1 .. 2 7 16 14 4,191 4,533 1-79 3-55 I Explosion of firedamp .. .. .. .. j Falls in mine .. .. .. .. ; 2 In shafts Miscellaneous : Underground .. .. 3 ,, On surface .. .. 1 i 5 2 3 ■ 2 Total killed .. .. 6 Number of employees .. .. .. 3,692 Rate of persons killed per 1,000 employed .. 1-62 12 3,910 3-07 _ _j _ i \ i

At Coal-mines. At Metal-mines. Number of Persons Killed. Employed. — j Rate per 1,C00 employed. Number of Persons Year ended 31st December. Killed. Employed. Rate per 1,000 employed. 1901 .. 1902 .. 1903 .. 1904 .. 1905 .. 1906 .. 1907 .. 1908 .. 1909 .. 1910 .. 1911 .. .. * • ■ i '' i j 3 2,754 2 2,885 4 2,852 4 3,288 6 3,269 6 3,692 12 3,910 5 3,894 7 4,191 16 4,533 14 I 0-91 0-69 1-40 1-21 hit 1-62 307 1-28 1-79 3-55 14 .12,732 14 11.398 19 . 10.210 15 10,£98 21 ' 9,362 14 8,716 7 9,3£9 15 8,8£0 14 7,651 15 j 8,121 7 ' .. ! 1-09 1-04 1-86 137 2-24 1-60 0-84 1-69 1-83 1-84 i . I __ 1 i

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No. 2.—New Zealand Quartz-mines: Temperatures of Mine-air at Deepest Workings.

Mine-temperatures.

Place where Observations were taken. Temperature in Degrees Fahrenheit. Name of Mine. Date. Dry Wet Bulb. Bulb. Coromandel Goldfield — Old Hauraki .. 220 ft. level, main drive ,, face of stope, 300 ft. level, drive on reef .. O 74 74 76 74 69 83 77 76 77 77 76 O 71 71 74 72 67 83 76 75 76 76 75 14/9/10 Kapanga 11/8/11 ,, crosscut 400 ft. level, main crosscut 1,000 ft. level, drive west at 500 ft. . . ,, drive east at 60 ft. .. 920 ft. level, drive north 940 ft. level, drive west ,, rise 30 ft. up . . 900 ft. level, drive east at 100 ft. a Thames Goldfield* May Queen .. 12/8/11 Outside shade temperature 1,000 ft. level, face of south crosscut ,, Exchange reef ,, face of main crosscut at 730 ft. from shaft ,, end of 22 in. air-pipe 700 ft. from shaft 55 84-5 82 80 51 83-5 82 80 Saxon 76 73 New Sylvia .. Watchman 15/8/11 Outside shade temperature Adit (intake aircourse) ,, ,, leading stope Outside shade temperature Adit level, Dunedin lode, Outside shade temperature Beach adit level, end of air-pipe, 2,271 ft. in . . 55 65 71 62 64 62 70 51 64 71 56-5 63 58 69 Waitangi

I Date. Place where the Observations were taken. _. l_ _ Temperature in Degrees Fahrenheit. Dry Wet Bulb. Bulb. Waihi Mine. O O 19/8/11 8/8/11 .. . Outside mine, in shade .. .. "".. .. * Martha east drive from No. 2 shaft Welcome, west of Richard crosscut, 30 ft. in > Edward, east of Perch crosscut, about 200 ft. in Edward, 570 ft. in from Perch crosscut No. 4 shaft crosscut, 1,000 ft. in .. Reptile crosscut, 800 ft. in, end of blower-pipe 800 ft. in Empire, east face, 617 ft. in Royal face, 800 ft. in Face of crosscut Perry's stope, 24 ft. up, Empire Brown's stope Martha south, Robinson's stope Dutton's drive .. .. L9/8/11 .. Outside mine, in shade, Royal east face, 900 ft. in from No. 4 shaft Pearson's stope, 88 ft. up , : .. „ other end Napier's stope, 50 ft. up Royal Elsegood's stope, 40 ft. up . . .. Scorpion crosscut, face. 600 ft. in . . Edward and Welcome, 80 ft. up . . 21/8/11 .. Outside mine, in shade Edward level, under Bullock's pass Bullock's stope, 90 ft., west end .. ,, 90 ft., east end Empire, cast Williams's stope, 70 ft. up Furey's stope, 60 ft. up .. Regina section, Martha Prisk's place 62J 56- 2 75 74 74 73 .. 73| 73 83 82| 61 59 82 82 81£ 81| 78 78" 77 , 77 70 69 72 7<) 68£ 68 82 81 62J 54 77 ,76 79 .78 79 79 75 74 81 81 .. I 82 .80 .. i 75J 75 .. i 54 45 .. ! 80 79 .. | 82} 82 .. | 82 81£ .-. - 77 70 .. 78J 11\ .. I 70 m\ 21/8/11

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Mine-temperatures— continued.

] Temperature in Degrees Fahrenheit Bate. Place where the Observations were taken. ; Dry i Wet Bulb. Bulb, Date. Waihi Mine —continued. 0 11/8/11 .. No. 1 shaft, north-west crosscut .. .. .. .. ' 61 f 59J ; Martha south, Truscott's stope, 85 ft. up .. .. . . j 70$ 70" ,, north, Cameron's pass, near fallen ground .. .. 82| 82 i Edward filling-shaft, first observation .... .. ,. j 83 82 ,, second observation .. . . . . 81 80 Royal, Healey's place .. .. .. .. .. 78 77^ The observations were taken in the warmest places in this mine. Waihi Extended Mine. 56/8/11 .. : Outside mine, in shade (wet day) .. .. .. 50 | 49 No. 5 (960 ft.) plat at winding-shaft .. . . . . ; 83 79| „ west crosscut at timber stopping (no work being done here) 90 89 II aihi Grand Junction Mine. 18/8/11 .. I Outside mine, in shade . . . . . . . . . . ' 55 52 No. 5 (944 ft.), return air from mine at fan .. .. 69 69 „ plat at shaft .. .. .. .. .. j 63J 60 ,, No. 1 winze, Grace lode, 40 ft. down . . . . j 82 79 „ Ferguson's stope, Empire lode. 900 ft. east . . . . 76 73 ,. on level under Ferguson's stope .. .. . . 70J 64^ ,. LindwalPs stope, Royal east .. .. .. i 73-J 70j ,, Adams's stope .. .. .. .. . . j 84 83 ,. Keen's stope, 40 ft. up Mary lode . . . . . . j 83£ 83 „ ,, other end . . . . . . . . 75 70 „ on level under stope . . . . . . . . 71 67| ., at connection with Extended . . . . . . | 84| 73 j ., Henderson's stope, 42 ft. up .. .. .. 79 78 ,, ,, another place . . . . . . 81 78 ,, under Henderson's stope at level . . . . . . j 74 71 The observations were taken in the wannest places in this mine. Talisman Mine. 74/11 .. South face drive, No. 13 (1,875 ft.) level .. .. .. I 79 I 78 Bonanza stopes south, No. 15 rise, same level . . . . 79 78 No. 13 winze, below No. 13 (1,875 ft.) level . . .. 83 81 Mullock rise, between Nos. 12 and 15 rises, same level . . ] 82 81 Bottom of No. 12 winze, soxith face, same level . . .. 80 79 North face, bottom of same winze, same level . . . . j 78 77 Face of north drive, No. 12 (1,675 ft.) level .. ..69 68 { ,, drive, Shepherd's lode, same level . . . . . . 69 68 Bonanza stopes. intermediate level . . . . . . 77 75 ' above No. 12 (1,675 ft.) level .. .. 78 77 Same stope north of No. 12 rise,' same level . . . . 77 76 Stopes on east branch north No. 7 winze . . . . . . . 76J 75J Main crosscut, river level . . . . . . .. 67 65 1/8/11 .. Main crosscut, 70 ft. above No. 13 (1,875 ft.) level leading to ! 60 56 Woodstock shaft j Main crosscut south of shaft No. 13 (1,875 ft.) level . . . . \ 62 60 Main drive on reef north of No. 12 winze . . . . . - . . 70 64 Face of drive on main lode nqrth, over 1,000 ft. from shaft . . 77 76 No. 16 rise, 20 ft. north of above face, height 100 ft. . . 74 72£ - Welcome winze, east crosscut No. 13 level, depth 62 ft. . . 80 - 78 North face, bottom of No. 12 winze, 140 ft. below No. 13 level 76 73 ! South face, from bottom No. 12 winze . . .. . . 80 ' 75 1/8/11 New Zealand Crown Mines, '/8/11. .. Main crosscut, No. 4 (1,675 ft.) level ... .. ..55 54 Edwards's stope. above No. 4 level . . . . . . I 59 56 Hodges' rise, 32 ft. above No. 4 (1,675 ft.) level . . .. 62 59 Wall's rise, below No. 4 level, Welcome reef .. .. | 64 62 Radclifie's stopes, 100 ft. above No. 4 (1,675 ft.) level .. 69 65 Robinson and parties' drive south on Welcome reef .. I 58 ■ 56 Rise on same cross-lode, above this level 16 ft. . . . . 60 58 Main crosscut, No. 5 level .. . . ■ ■ ■ • j 58 56 Main shaft I 56 53

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No. 3.—Table showing the Temperature and Analyses of Mine-air, Reefton Quartz-mines Observations taken 30th September, 1911, by T. O. Bishop, Inspector of Mines.

Tempe Name of Mine and Section. •atures. .Analyses. Remarks. Wet Bulb. Dry Bulb. C0 3 . co. ; o. Progress Mine. No. 2 east intermediate . . I 70 - 0 No. 10 (1,266 ft.) level, 27 east j .. No. 9 level .. .... No. 11 (1,416 ft.) or Pioneer j 78"0 slopes Ditto .. .. .. ! 75-3 No. 2 east intermediate .. i 71-0 Pioneer stopes . . . . j 74-0 C 0-54 0-94 0-46 0-53 71-0 20-65 Dead-end ; compressed air. 19-32 Rock-drill place, shovelling. 20-13 ; Air from No. 10 stopes. 20-00 ! No current. 79-0 77-0 ! 72-0 i 75-0 | 0-45 0-41 In the current. .. ! 20-39 \ Opposite end from No. 1 sarnpli .. j 20-44 \ Lower level than sample No. 4. Energetic Mine. No. 10 stopes north .. ! 73-5 No. 11 (1,860 ft.) level .. ! 73-0 No. 8 stopes .. .. 73-0 No. 10 stopes south .. 72-0 No. 6 (1,234 ft.) level footwall j .. drive north No. 9 north stopes .. i 74-5 74-5 i 74-0 j 74-0 S 73-0 0-25 0-36 0-28 0-23 0-30 .. ■ 20-64 j 20-58 Dead-end. 20-62 Close of uprise to No. 7. 20-70 50 ft. from pass. . 20-61 Dead-end. 20-57 No current. 75-5 0-33 Keep-it-Dark. No, 7 (1,074 ft.) stopes .. 70-5 71-5 0-15 .. i 20-90 Appreciable current. 0-005 . . After firing in stopes. 20-63 . 0-005 i .. In face 30 minutes after firing. 0-008 ! .. ' 50 ft. back. Blackwater. No. 1 level No. 2 north stopes . . 60-0 No. 3 level crosscut 60-0 60-0 0-42 Big River. West intermediate stopes . . 70-0 No. 10, leading stope north .. 71-0 South-west level stopes New east intermediate 70-0 71-0 71-0 72-0 0-33 0-35 0-53 0-34 20-68 20-61 i 28 ft, wide. 20-36 ! 20-55 Progress Mine. No. 10 (1,266 ft.) Progress drive .. No. 11 (1,416 ft.) south cross- I .. cut Ditto Crosscut from south rise 0-04 .. ] 20-88 Dead-end. .. i Lost in transit. 0-69 0-25 ■ .. j 20-45 0-010 I 20-58 50 minutes after firing.

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No. 4.—Air-measurements taken at Waihi Grand Junction Mine, 28th August, 1911.

Note. —The fan is of Sirocco type, double inlet, 19 in. diameter, electrically driven: estimated 8.H.P., 34; observed W.G., M 2 in. at fan. Wet Bulb. Dry Bulb. Temperature of outside air in shade ... . ... 51|° 54° mine-air discharged by fan ... ... 69° .69° maximum observed ... ... 83° 83J° minimum observed ... ... 64i° 70|°

(Ventilated by Sirocco fan.) Quantity of Air j Total Number of Average Quantity Locality where Measurements taken. circulating per Men on of Air per Man Minute. Day Shift. per Minute. ~ ~ ~ ~~" " 1 T "~~ ~ Intake Air. No. 5 level (944 ft. deep) — Gub. ft. Cub. ft. South crosscut .. .. .. .. ! 16,293 50 325 North crosscut .. .. .. .. 14,492 12 1,208 No. 4 level (794 ft. deep)--North crosscut .. .. .. .. 1.738 18 263 No. 3 levelNorth crosscut .. .. . . .. 9,332 8 1,166 I j Quantity descending main shaft .. 44,855 other inlets .. .. 2,710 44,855 2,710 Total intake .. .. .. 47,565 47,565 Return Air. Returning via Extended Mine at No. 5 level . . 11,550 Returning through Sirocco fan .. .. 36,015 11,550 36,015 Total measured return .. . . 47,565 88 540 47,565 47,565 88 540

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DIAGRAM No1, to illustrate the "JAMES" WATER-BLAST

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DIAGRAMS No.2 to illustrate a useful form of VENTILATING PIPE.

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MINING WINDLASS CAST-IRON RATCHET WHEEL, FIG 2.

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AN ARRANGEMENT FOR REVERSING THE AIR CURRENT.

SUGGESTED DESIGN FOR CHANGING ROOM & BATHS FOR MINERS.

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INDEX TO WITNESSES.

Adams, W. J. (Thames), 207. Anderson, L. (Alexandra), 323. Arbuckle, J. (Runanga), 129. Atkinson, J. (Nelson), 149. Barclay, W. (Nightcaps), 79. Barry, H. P. 4 Wellington), 364 Bayfield, A. D. (Nelson), 161. Beal, L. 0. (Dunedin), 406. Beattie, A. L. (Wellington), 166. Bennie, B. (Thames), 68, 167, 20» Bird, W. (Thames), 185. Bishop, T. 0. (Reefton), 328, 347. Blair, J. D. (Waihi), 225. Brown, A. (Waihi), 227. Burgess, B. (Waihi), 265. Burke, R. (Reefton), 340. Campbell, B. (Waihi), 228. Carlyon, S. (Auckland). 314. Chal'lis, F. (Karangahake), 303. Chamberlain, F. H. (Granity), 366. Chapelhow, .1. (Denniston), "122. Cherrie, R. C. (Whangarei), 49. Ohilton, H. (Blackball), 145. Clark, G. (Kaitangata), 96. Coghlan, J. (Waihi). 269. Collie, J. (Auckland). 312. Conlon, Dr. W. A. (Reefton). 395. Coombe, J. (Waihi). 251. Cope, H. (Auckland), 310. Couch, H. (Huntly), 77. Crawford, A. (Auckland), 30!). Crowe, W. (Kaitangata). 84. Crowley, R. (Reefton), 345. Cummi'ng, J. (Seddonville). 121. 155. Dare, H. (Thames), 179. Davidson, J. H. (Alexandra), 323. Davis, O. (Runanga). 138. Diamond. J. (Reefton). 340. Duncan, J. E. (Huntly), 73. Dunn, W. R. (Whangarei), 62. Eilers, L. H. (Wellington), 162. English, Dr. E. J. (Auckland), 392. Evans, A. W. (Reefton), 341. Evered. N. J. (Waihi), 247. Fagan, M. (Reefton), 328. Falkenbach, A. (Hokitika), 368. Farrelly, H. (Thames), 175. Ferguson, A. (Kaitangata). 97. Fisher, J. (Denniston), 124. Fleming, J. (Thames). 181. Foot, F. E. (Denniston). 127. Fox, H. J. (Denniston), 126. Franklin, T. (Waihi), 270. Frazer-Hurst, Dr. .1. L. (Waihi), 385. Fulton, James (Huntly), 78. Gaynor, J. (Waihi), 261. Gilmour, J. L. (Waihi), 237. 267. Glover, J. (Runanga), 131. Grace, W. F. (Wellington), 357. Green, E. R. (Dunedin), 81, 98, 323. Green, R. (Dunedin), 107. Grundy, R. (Huntly), 77. Guinness. Dr. W. G. (Auckland), 387. Hal!, M. (Blackball), 144. Harris,.A. (Granity), 111. Hart, F. (Invercargill), 317. Harris, W. L. (Whangarei). 61. Harris, L. (Cromwell), 321. Heard, J. (Kaitangata), 89. Hendry, J. (Granity). 115. Hill, R. (Dunedin), 108. Mollis, J. (Waihi), 250. Hollows, W. (Dunedin). 10]. Hood, N. D. (Nelson), 378. Horn, G. W. (Thames), 205. Innes, A. (Runanga), 138. Jamieson. A. (Thames), 173. Jones, G. N. (Waihi), 231. Kearney, T. (Waihi), 224. Kidd, j. (Thames), 171. Knight, R. L. (Denniston), 125. Lapraik, Dr. G. (Thames), 382. Leach, D. (Karangahake), 297. Leary, E. C. (Invercargill), 316.

Lee, R., jun. (Kaitangata), 97. Leggo, J. R. (Nelson), 370. Little, F. (Whangarei), 53. Love, A. (Dunedin), 105. Lucas, W. H. (Thames), 196. McConachie, W. (Waihi), 271. McEwan, R. (Nelson), 149. Mclntosh, R. (Cromwell), 318. Mclntyre, J. (Whangarei), 55. McKenzie, N. (Kaitangata), 95. McKenzie, P. (Greymouth), 374. Maokie, J. (Seddonville), 118. McKinlay, W. (Whangarei), 65. McLennan, W. (Waihi), 236. McMillan, C. (Waihi), 218. Malcolm, Professor J. (Dunedin), 402. Maloney, J. (Kumara), 354. Marriner. M. (Karangahake), 292. .Marshall. H. (Karangahake), 305. Meadowcroft, W. (Blackball), 145. Milne. T. D. 1). (Westport). 157. Moore, L. (Waihi), 254. Morgan, W. (Whangarei), 57. Murdoch. J. A. (Kumara), 352. Murray, ■). (Karangahake), 298. Newman, ,1. (Granity), 112. Newton, J. (Granity), 109, 117, 122, 129. Nicholas, W. (Kaitangata), 87. Nicol, J. S., (Wellington), 163. Norton. J. (Kaitangata), 84. O'Neill, I). ■). (Karangahake), 302. Opie, C. (Waihi), 221. Park, Professor J. (Dunedin), 397. Pattinson. J. F. (Runanga), 134. Paul, M. (Waihi), 218, 281, 292, 305, 306 Phillips, J. (Nelson), 146. Phillips. W. (Reefton), 339. Port, C. A. (Invercargill), 314. Power, E. (Denniston), 128. Prescott, .1. P. (Auckland), 306. Quinn, T. (Seddonville), 120. Richards, A. H. (Hokitika), 354. Ridd, R. N. (Kaitangata), 90. Robinson, W. (Waihi), 233. Robson, W. (Runanga), 136. Rogers, W. (Blackball), 142. Rolfe, J. (Whangarei), 66. Sawyer, A. W. (Thames), 195. Scott, Dr. E. H. (Reefton), 392. Scott, J. (Denniston), 126. Scott, R. (Cromwell), 322. Shallish, W. (Kaitangata), 93. Shepherd, H. F. (Auckland), 312. Smith, E. (Runanga), 136. Smith, W. (Karangahake), 293. Smith, F. A. (Granity), 116. Southward, J. (Runanga), 137. Speering, J. R. (Waihi), 263. Steel, W. (Whangarei), 52. Stephenson, T. (Westport), 367. Stewart, F. (Waihi), 277. Stubbs, H. (Kumara), 354. Tattley, E. W. (Whangarei), 66. Todd, T. (Nightcaps), 81. Tomasi, V. (Granity), 109. Tomkies, H. (Westport), 152. Trebilcock, F. (Thames), 167. Truscott, J. (Reefton), 338. Valentine, J. (Huntly), 76. Walker, A. (Dunedin), 372. Wallace, M. (Whangarei), 47. Walshe, Dr. Denis (Thames), 383. Ward, J. (Greymouth), 140. Warne, G. (Thames), 198. Waters, D. B. (Dunedin), 405. Watson, C. F. (Huntly), 77. Weaver, C. (Alexandra), 325. Webb, P. C. (Runanga), 137. Whitley, A. (Thames), 186. Williams, S. E. (Waihi), 235. Williams, T. (Granity), 114. ! Wilson, A. W. (Westport), 154. Wilson, R. W. (Thames), 183. Wylde, G. R. (Runanga), 140.

C—4

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. COAL. Whangarei Courthouse.—9th and 10th August, 1911. Matthew Wallace sworn and examined. (No. 1.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you, Mr. Wallace I—A1 —A miner. 2. Do you hold any other position % —Yes, I am secretary of the Hikurangi Miners' Union. 3. How long have you been a miner % —Five years. 4. Where have you mined ? —Only at Hikurangi. 5. Under whom have you worked I—Mr. W. R. Dunn and Mr. W. Morgan, mine-managers. 6. The whole of your mining experience has been gained in that one mine ? —Yes. 7. Will you tell the Commission briefly what you have to complain of, Mr. Wallace? —About the temperature of the mine, the ventilation, and the question of change-houses, and also as to the sanitary arrangements at the mine. 8. You do not make complaint regarding accidents or as to the safety of the mine % —No ; the accidents are very few, considering. 9. Mr. Dowgray.] To whom have you complained about the ventilation ? —We- complained to the Inspector of Mines on several occasions, and also through the House, regarding the ventilation of the Northern Mine. 10. The Chairman.] Through the House—in what form % —Through Mr. Mander, M.P. 11. Mr. Dowgray.] And was the ventilation remedied I—Yes,1 —Yes, to a certain extent. 12. But it is still defective ?— Yes. 13. Do you consider the air in which you are working at present is properly directed round the working-faces ? —No, I do not. 14. The Chairman.] In what way is it diverted ? —The air is not actually brought to the places where the men are working. 15. How could that be remedied ? —By proper stoppings the air could be taken to the different sections where the men are working. 16. Mr. Dowgray.] And we may take it there is no method of taking the air round the workingfaces ?—There are not sufficient stoppings. 17. The Chairman.] Have you asked the manager at any time to put in sufficient stoppings 1— We have not actually asked him, but we have complained of the ventilation. 18. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you keep the check inspectors' reports upon the colliery I—Yes. 19. Have you the reports that have been made up to date ? —Yes. 20. The Chairman.] Have you the book with you ? —Yes. [Report-book produced.] The usual way is this :we inspect the mine and enter our report in the manager's book at the mine. Then we put a copy of our report into our book. 21. Who are the check inspectors ? —Mr. Harris and myself. We are both present to give evidence. 22. The manager has a copy of those reports —they are official records ? —Yes. 23. Give us the points to which you wish to draw our attention, by quoting from your reports as to the state of things complained of, and as shown in your reports I—Before quoting from the reports I wish to mention that I overlooked, in enumerating our complaints, a reference to the neglected state of the travelling-roads. They are very wet, and the water has a serious effect on the feet of the truckers. 24. In your report, dated e the 17th] December, 1909, there is a complaint entered about the ventilation of the mine % —Yes. 25. Were any steps taken after that to remedy the complaints made in that report ?—No steps were taken to remedy the defects mentioned. 26. Then, in your report of the 18th June, 1910, there is a complaint about the ventilation in one portion of the mine, and also a complaint about the presence of water on the travelling-ways % —Yes. 27. And also about insufficient timbering ? —Yes. 28. Was anything done to remedy any of these conditions ?—The only way to get at that is by referring to the next report, dated the 22nd October, 1910. 29. In that report you complain again of the ventilation, the timbering, and the travelling-ways ?— Yes. I think that is the last report that has been made. 30. There has been no report made since then ?—No. 31. How often are these reports supposed to be made ? —There is no standard time; they have the right to take them every month. 32. What has the average condition of the mine been since you ceased making those reports ? —I do not think the reports made the slightest difference to the condition of the mine, because there has been no difference since the last report was made in October last. 33. If the conditions have been sufficiently bad to warrant complaint, why have you not complained since last October ? —Because, though we were continually complaining before, we got no remedy. The workers' inspections have had no effect on the conditions of the mine.

B—C. 4.

a—4

[M. WALLACE.

34. Mr. Dowgray.] You consider the air was not properly conducted round the working-faces ?— Yes. 35. You are of the opinion that by a little expenditure on brattice the ventilation could.be much improved ?—Yes, if proper stoppings were put in to carry the air to the working-faces. 36. In your reports you frequently make mention of places being insufficiently timbered : have you had many accidents in the mine I—No,1 —No, there was only one accident, and I would not say that" that was the result of insufficient timbering. The man had his back badly hurt. 37. The Chairman.'] How long ago ? —About two years ago. 38. Mr. Dowgray.] By a fall from the roof ? —Yes. 39. When you complained about the timbering, was it remedied ?—Yes, sometimes. 40. It was-more apt to be remedied than the ventilation ?—Yes, they were more ready to remedy that than the ventilation. 41. You make reference to water on the trucking-roads ? —Yes, the water affects the feet of the men, and they lose sometimes a week or more ; the toes get the skin worn off, and they get raw. I have suffered that way myself. 42. And that could be remedied by keeping the water off the trucking-roads ? —Yes. 43. Mr. Parry.] You have been working in those places for five years, and the temperature has been very high, has it not ? —Yes, I have worked in some very hot places. 44. Have you felt any ill effects from working there ? —Yes. One is not able to get the same sleep, and one loses his appetite. 45. The Chairman.] Can you give us any idea of the temperature ? —Yes. I hung the thermometer on a prop alongside of where I was working, and when I knocked of! work it was registering 82°. That was about three months ago. 46. Did you draw the manager's attention to that I—Yes, directly I came out of the mine. 47. What did he say ? —He simply listened to me, but that was all—nothing was done. 48. Mr. Parry.] Have any men fainted through the excessive heat while you have been working in the mine ?—No. 49. The Chairman.] Have you known of any man leaving his place on account of the heat ?—lt is quite a usual thing for a man working in these places to go out when he fills his skip and wait till the skip comes back. 50. Have you known any case where a man has refused to work in any particular place because of the heat ? —No ; but in No. 6 district there was a place being driven to get to the back of a creep, and during that time six-hour shifts were worked. 51. Where was the nearest cool place—how far would the men have to go after filling the skip, as you stated % —The distances vary. 52. Mr. Parry.] Would it be any advantage to the miners to have proper change-houses and drying-apparatus I—Yes,1 —Yes, a great advantage. A man after working in these hot places gets wet through with sweat, and after ceasing work has to walk perhaps a mile in his wet clothes. Otherwise he could have his bath at the mine, change, and walk home dry. Then, again, a man getting wet on his way to the mine is at present forced to work through the whole day in his wet clothes, whereas if he had a changehouse he could work in dry clothes. 53. The Chairman.] What accommodation would be required ?—There are about twenty-four to twenty-six men on a shift, and with the addition of the truckers and so forth there would be between forty and fifty on each shift. They would need about half a dozen baths with hot water—the coalminer always washes in hot water. 54. Both plunge and shower ?—No, just a shower. 55. You would not want to build baths in ?—No. 56. Mr. Parry.] Have there been any obstacles put in the way of the workmen's inspector ? —No. 57. He has had free access to the mine ? —Yes. 58. What inconvenience are you put to in regard to sanitary appliances in this mine ? —The men require them, as at present, if they want to go to the surface, it takes perhaps half an hour; naturally, the man is not going to lessen his wage (they are on tonnage rates) by going out, and he therefore uses the mine. 59. You think sanitary arrangements are very much needed ? —Yes, they are very necessary. 60. In regard to your complaints to the mine-manager, you really thought when the complaints were made he would remedy them ? —Yes. 61. Mr. Reed.] Mr. Wallace, you stated that this is the first mine you have ever worked in? —Yes. 62. You have had no other experience ? —No 63. Do you expect the temperature of the mine to be equal to that of the outside air ? —No. 64. You stated that your last report was made in October last: have you made none since then?— No. 65. Is it not a fact that a fan has been installed since then ?—Yes. 66. Has the fan not improved the conditions of the mine ? —Only the conditions in one section of the mine. 67. The Chairman.] Which section I—That1 —That to which the fan is nearest. 68. Is that one of the sections complained of in your reports I—No. 69. Are you aware that 27,000 ft. of air is being returned by the fan I— : Yes. 70. Do you think that improves the conditions ? —lt only benefits the short circuit of the mine; it is not present through the whole distance. 71. How long is it since the fan was erected I —About six months. 72. Is it a fact that since the fan was erected you have never made a complaint ?----Yes, we have made no complaint.

M. WALLACE. |

C—4.

73. Mr. Reed.] Have you been nervous of making these complaints or reports ?■ —No. 74. The Chairman.] Had you any reason for not making them I —They put the union to expense. and we gained[nothing by them. 75. Mr. Reed.] You stated that some truckers were off for a week or a fortnight through getting their feet wet? —Yes, one of them ; Dunsmuir was another. 76. Did you or he see a doctor ?—No. 77. And the names of the others ? — J. Romo was one ;he was under Dr. East's care. There was also P. Whorskey. 78. You stated that in some places the men worked a six-hour shift : who decides whether it shall be a six-hour shift ? —The officials of the union and the manager. 79. What are the conditions which constitute a six-hour place ? —lf it is a wet place. In this case it was the heat of the place. 80. What payment do they receive in that case ? — They get eight-hour wages for a six-hour shift. 81. What is the normal shift ? —Eight hours. 82. Then it is an advantage for a man to have a six-hour place sometimes ? —Yes, in a way. 83. You stated that you just took a maximum temperature of 82° in the mine : was that dry or wet ?— Dry. 84. Do you know the wet-bulb temperature I—No.1 —No. 85. Are you aware that you could get that temperature in Queen Street, Auckland, in the shade 1 — No, I was not aware of that. 86. Do you consider 82° dry an excessive temperature ?—Yes, for a man to work in. 87. You spoke of change-houses: would the men always use them ? —Yes, as far as I know, they would. Certainly I would myself. 88. If you were living near the mine ?—There are no houses near the mine. 89. In the event of a small company with little capital and very few men having to provide changehouses and bath-houses, on whom do you consider the cost of these should fall \ — On the company, I take it. 90. Would you believe in the men contributing towards the cost of these bath-houses ?—No. 91. The Chairman.] What water is there available at your mine, for instance ?■ —There is a spring flowing not far from the mine. 92. Would they have to erect tanks, or would the natural watercourse give sufficient pressure 1 — The spring is there summer and winter. 93. Mr. Reed.] Is the water for the boiler easily got in the summer ? —Yes ; the miners use it also. 94. The Chairman.] What is the flow—half a Government head ? —I could not say. 95. Mr. Reed.] Have you made complaints to the Inspector of Mines, as recorded in your check inspectors' reports ?—Yes, I have personally explained the matters to him, and these reports are open to the Inspector and he can see them for himself. 96. In regard to sanitation, are you aware that coaldust is a disinfectant and deodorant ? —Yes. 97. Have any ailments been experienced by the miners as the result of these return airways being utilized for sanitary purposes ? —Not that I am aware of. 98. Mr. Cochrane.] In regard to your complaint about the change-houses, Mr. Wallace, was it in regard to the want of change-houses or in regard to the lack of heating-accommodation I—There1 —There is a shelter-shed. We want proper bathing-accommodation. 99. Is there at present a change-house ?—Yes, but it is used for storing harness, &c. 100. Is there any fire in it \ —There is a fireplace. 101. The Chairman.] Have there been any fires in it I—Only1—Only now and again—not often during the past winter. 102. You told us you found 82° in your working-place ? —Yes. 103. How did you take that—with your thermometer ? —I hung the thermometer on a prop all day while I was working there, and that is what it registered. 104. Was there a good current of air passing ?—No, there was no air-current. 105. Mr. Cochrane.] Can you tell us the size of the conduit to which a man would have to retire for the purpose of nature I—They1—They usually go into any part of the mine which is far away irom the men. 106. We saw the return airway : can you tell us the size of that in No. 6 section ?■ —No, I cannot tell you. 107. Mr. Dowyray.] Have you tried to see whether the air was moving round at all at the faces ? — We usually take the anemometer with us when we are making our inspections, but at times we have not been able to get the anemometer to move. 108. Mr. Cochrane.] Are you aware that your anemometer may show no reading and still a very large current of air may be passing—thousands of feet I—No.1 —No. 109. What do you add for friction ? —Thirty feet. 110. The Chairman.] Will you explain what you mean by saying it is an advantage for a man to have a six-hour place %■ —There is no real advantage as far as the mining is concerned. The only point is that if there is excessive heat in a place he has to work only six instead of eight hours. 111. He has no pecuniary gain ? —-No; he gets the same wages. Robekt Cleland Oherrie sworn and examined. (No. 2.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Cherrie % —A miner. 2. How long have you been mining ?—Thirty years. 3. Where have you gained your experience ?—I was mining for three years in Scotland, and the rest in New Zealand.

C—4.

[R. C. CHERRIE .

4. In what mines in New Zealand have you worked I—At Brunner, Wallsend, Tyneside, Hokonui, Kaitangata, Benhar, Mokau, Huntly, and the Northern Mine here. 5. What are you doing now ? —I am working on the coal. 6. Have you any certificates ? —I hold a second-class coal mine-manager's certificate. 7. How long ago did you obtain it ?—Over ten years ago. 8. What mine are you working in now % —The Northern. 9. Have you any other position apart from that of miner?—l am president of the union. 10. Are you a check inspector ? —No, I have not been a check inspector in this district. 11. Will you give the Commission a brief outline of your complaints I—We1 —We complain that the air is not properly conducted round the working-faces as required. The sanitation, also, is not what it ought to be. Then, the roads are very wet in the Northern Mine. Sometimes I have had to complain about insufficient timbering on the main roads. I also believe it would be an advantage to have change-houses. 12. How long have you been in this mine % —About three years. 13. There have been no fatalities since you have been there I —No, a few truckers hurt. 14. By trucking or by falls of coal ? —By trucking. 15. By reason of defective ways ?—No, I do not think so. 16. Too much uphill on the roads ? —Yes; there are some of the roads too steep, and there is too much strain. 17. Have you known any miners to be injured through falls from the roof or by their own carelessness ? —No, I only know of one man who got his back hurt, as has already been stated. I myself suffered an injury to my foot. 18. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you heard a complaint from the miners as to ventilation ? —I have coin plained myself to the manager and to his deputy about it. 19. You say there is general dissatisfaction in regard to the matters you have referred to ? —Yes. 20. How does this coal-mine compare with those others in which you have worked % —Very unfavourably. 21. There is a general dissatisfaction in regard to these wet roads : [do the truckers" work a sixhour shift ?•—No. 22. A wet road does not, then, constitute a wet place % —lt does sometimes, when flood-water comes in ; they then give a slight increase in wages for a day or two. 23. Do you know of any trucker who has been put to any disadvantage through refusing to work on a wet road ? —Yes, one trucker was fined in this Court £4 because he would not work on a wet road. 24. The By whom was lie tried \ —By Mr. Scott-Smith, S.M. 25. But that is not an answer to Mr. Dowgray's question : it is as to whether any one has suffered any inconvenience because he refused to work on a wet road ? —I cannot prove that there is any unfairness meted out to truckers who have refused to work under such conditions. 26. Mr. Dowgray.] You are aware that a fine has been inflicted during the last six months ?—Yes. 27. Has the ventilation been improved ? —No, I cannot say that there has been any difference. The only difference I could see was that the main roads were nice and cool. At my working-face 1 had occasion to complain to the manager, and he said he would put a cut through as soon as possible, but that was of very little benefit. 28. The Chairman.] Why ? —The air was not conducted to the face. 29. Mr. Parry.] Do you ever feel any ill effects from working in a hot place I—Yes,1 —Yes, I have worked in hot places in the Northern Mine on a six-hour shift, when they were opening out No. 6. I had to do two hours' trucking in the wet road, or maybe on the dry road, and then do six hours in that place. 30. What effect has it had on your health ?—I found that I could not eat my food and could not sleep the same as if the ventilation had been good. 31. The Chairman.] Do you know anything about actual temperatures or air-measurements there 1 — I have not taken any in the Northern Mine, nor have I seen any taken. 32. Mr. Parry.] As a man with a great deal of mining experience, what is the difference between working with a temperature of 82° dry on the surface and underground with the same temperature : where would you sooner work I —On the surface, to be sure. 33. What advantage do you think it would be to the miners to have proper change-houses and drying-apparatus ? —lt would be very beneficial to their health. They could bath when they come out of the mine overheated, and not have to walk home in their clothes saturated with perspiration. They would be much more comfortable walking home dry. 34. The Chairman.] Have you had experience where they have had baths I —They have never had any where I have been. 35. You do not call the hut a change-house ? —No, it is a shelter-shed. 36. Mr. Parry.] In regard to men living close to the mine, on the average the coal-miner has not many conveniences ?—No, as a rule, he has not. 37. In order to take that extra work off his wife's shoulders he would prefer to change before going home ?—Yes, I know I would. 38. What inconvenience are you put to in regard to sanitary appliances ?—You have got to go to the most convenient place —sometimes it is to the intake, and sometimes to the outlet. The smell, as a rule, is very offensive, especially if the air happens to reverse in the section. I have had occasion to draw Mr. Morgan's attention personally, and also that of his deputy, to the matter, and asked him to have a proper system installed, as they have at Huntly. He said he would warn the parties for the filth alongside the roads.

R. C. CHERRIE.]

C.—4.

39. In regard to the temperature, would you sooner work in a temperature of, say, 77° dry for eight hours or in a temperature of 83° for six hours ? —Certainly at 77° for eight hours. 40. Mr. Reed.] You stated that at times the water-tables were flooded in the niirit ?— Ai the parts of the mine to which I was referring there are no water-tables. 41. The Chairman.'] What distance on the road is wet when it is flooded of the roads have 3 chains at a stretch very wet in this mine. 42. Mr. Reed.] Is it possible to get rid of the flood drain water? —It is quite (possible in some sections. 43. How would you do that \ —By having a drive parallel with the drainage drive, or a back heading. 44. You suggest that the company should go to that expense to take away a little water ?— The company could keep one drive clear for the drainage or anything like that, or for both drainage and intake of air. 45. In regard to the man who you stated was fined for refusing to work on a wet place, was it not because he refused to work out his notice of fourteen days ? —The excuse that he gave His Worship was that he was put on trucking on a wet road. 46. What was he fined for ? —For not working his fourteen days. 47. Did he get work elsewhere ? —Yes. 48. Had he previously worked in the Northern Mine ? —Yes, but not in that section. 49. You have had considerable experience, you say : have you in Scotland or in other New Zealand mines experienced ill health through the miners using the returns for natural purposes ?—I have never suffered ill health in my life, but I can tell the difference between working in a good mine and a bad one. 50. Have you known any miners becoming ill from the effects of other miners using the return-air course to obey the calls of nature ?—The men have openly complained to me —that is all I know. I am not a doctor, and cannot say whether they experienced ill health or not. 51. Have you heard of an illness as the result of the presence of this excreta ?—No. 52. Are you aware that coaldust is a good deodorant and disinfectant ? —Sometimes they do not use it as they ought. 53. Then it is the men's fault if they do not put coaldust on the excreta ? —I consider rather that the company ought to provide proper accommodation. 54. Do they do that in Scotland, where you come from ?—No, they do not. 55. Are you aware that the Scottish colliers this year are protesting against washing at the pit before going home ? —I have read that. 56. Are you aware that, in connection with a Coal-mines Bill before the British House of Commons, the miners protested against using baths at the collieries ?—I do not hold with that. 57. Do you consider that the cost and upkeep would be too heavy % —No, not for half a dozen baths. 58. Would you recommend or advise that miners be compelled to use the baths ? —No ; they may have reasons against doing so. 59. Would you propose that a small company should provide and maintain the baths even if the men did not use them \ —Some might not use them; but, speaking for myself, I would. 60. Would you be in favour of the miners contributing a small sum towards the upkeep of those bath-houses % —No. 61. Why not %■ —Because I do not see that it is their place to do so. 62. At Home they have to pay for their own soap and towels ? —They would prefer to use their own soap and towels, and ask the company to provide the water. 63. Would you regard the Northern as a safe or unsafe mine \ —lt is a fairly safe mine. 64. Mr. Cochrane.] I think you told us, Mr. Cherrie, that this mine compared very unfavourably with the other mines you had worked in ? —Yes. 65. Would that apply to the whole of the Northern Mine or only to portions ? —The whole of the mine except my present working-section; it is the best I have worked in. 66. Your complaint, then, only applies to the pillar-workings ?■—Yes, only to the pillar-workings. 67. Then you told us that the shelter-shed would serve as a change-house ? —No; a proper changehouse should be lined and not simply covered with corrugated iron. 68. Would you consider it sufficient as to size ?—Yes, it is a fair size. 69. Then you spoke about the timbering : what was the fault there \ —l have had occasion to speak to the deputy on the matter, but 1 may say that he has mostly attended to the matter within a day or so. He has attended to complaints honestly. 70. Then, in regard to the air-returns, where the men require to go in the absence of sanitary arrangements, about what size are these air-conduits? —They weie originally supposed to be Bft., but some of them are filled up with mullock. 8 ft. was supposed to be the maximum width. 71. And the minimum ?—Just the size of a skip. 72. And what size was that portion that was bratticed off % —About 2 ft. 73. Mr. Reed.] Has any man ever been hurt, to your knowledge, in that mine from a fall of roof ?— I have been told that a man was hurt. 74. The Chairman.] How long does it take you to go to the surface from the place you are working in ? —About a minute ; but in the other sections that are not so well situated it takes longer, of course. 75. What is the longest % —lt would take about fifteen minutes to go from some of the places at a fair walk—that is, to go only one way. 76. What is the average time %■ —It would be impossible to say. 77. How long would it take from No. 1 and No. 2 sections % —ln where the hard coal is it would take that time (fifteen minutes), but in the new stone drive I could not say because I have only once been into it.

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[R. C. CHERRIE.

78. Mr. Parry.] If anything happen, what would be the position of the men buck in the workings :is there any place to get out ?• —From No. sor No. 6 section there is an air-outlet. Ido not know, however, if the men could get into it. Where the members of the Commission wore yesterday there is no outlet. It is simply closed in. They would have to dig the men out. 79. Mr. Reed.] Have you ever known of a colliery having separate surface connections with every portion of the mine for use in case of a fall ? —No. I would say it was nonsense, but all mines are not worked on the same principle. 80. Mr. Parry.] Is it reasonably feasible in that mine to have another outlet ? —Certainly, it is quite possible. 81. Mr. Cochrane.] Why cannot you go back by the air-returns ?•—Because they are filled up. It would be a matter of impossibility unless he was going there every day. 82. Mr. Reed.] How many outlets to the surface are there in that mine ?—I do not know ; 1 have never counted them. 83. Do you think there are about six tunnels? —To the lower sections, but not to Nos. 5 and 6 sections. 84. In any of the Scotch collieries will you find six means of egress ? —No, they have three. 85. So that there are twice as many here for use in case of disaster ?—Yes, but not in Nos. 5 and 6 sections. They are in Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4. 86. Are you aware that the law requires only two exits ? —Yes, but the law also provides for a return. 87. The Chairman.] From your experience, have you any practical suggestion on which legislation could be based to meet the difficulties you have noticed during the course of your work in this mine ? — I consider that the front and back headings should be kept as clear as possible. If a fall occurred in the mine the back heading would then be available for the men to get out. 88. And you consider that should be made so by legislation ?—Yes, I think it should be made compulsory by legislation. 89. Mr. Parry.] Do you consider that there should be a standard temperature for a six-hour place in a mine ? —Yes. 90. And should be fixed by law ? —Yes. 91. The Chairman.] Can you say what you consider a maximum heat ?—I would consider that 75° dry Fahr. would be high enough for any man to work in. 92. Mr. Reed.] Begardless of the wet-bulb temperature ? —I have never studied that. 93. Is there a ladderway in these shafts ?—No, not as far as I know. William Steel sworn and examined. (No. 3.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Steel? —A miner. 2. How many years' experience have you had ?—About sixteen years. 3. Where have you gained your experience ?—ln New South Wales and New Zealand. 4. Which mines have you worked in? —At the Sea Pit, Newcastle, Burwood, Hikurangi, and the Northern Mine. 5. How long have you been in New Zealand mines ?—I was in the Hikurangi Mine about four or five years before I went to the other side, and I have been in the Northern Mine about seven years. 6. You do not hold any certificates ?—No. 7. Do you hold any other office in the mine—that of underviewer or anything ?—No, I am just a miner. 8. Will you tell the Commission what you have to complain of ? —The temperature, the foul air, the sanitary arrangements, and the change-houses. 9. Mr. Dowgray.] To whom have you made complaints ?—To the officials of the union. 10. And to the management of the mine ? —No. 11. Just to the check inspectors ?—Yes. 12. How does this mine compare with the New South Wales mines in regard to ventilation ? — It is not nearly so good as where I worked in New South Wales. While I was in the Hikurangi Mine I was trucking, and had no occasion to complain ; but I was never in the face. 13. The Chairman.] What do you say now is the fault ? —I say the air is not good enough. 14. W T hat is the particular fault ?—lt is not circulated round the faces. In the district where lam working Ido not think there is enough air in the working-places. We could not keep a light in it on Monday night —that is, in No. 6 section. We were working in a pillar and cut through a hole, and black damp came through. 15. Mr. Dowgray.] What remedy do you suggest ? —lf the bratticing had betn run a little fuither up the air would have got round about the face. About a chain back there was a good current of air, but it did not reach the face. 16. Is there any companion road to this No. 6 section ?—Yes, within about a chain of it. 17. Have you had any occasion to complain about the timber in that section ?—No. 18. You trucked in that mine for some time ? —Yes, a few years ago. 19. Did you feel any bad effects on your feet caused by the water ? —No, I have never lost any time ; of course, it was wet, but I have never suffered any ill effects. 20. Mr. Parry.] You are working in a warm place—in Steel's place ? —Yes, lam Steel; it is my place. 21. Have you felt any bad effects while working in that hot place ? —Well, on the shift I am working this week I have been pretty bad. When I get home frequently 1 cannot eat anything, and I do not sleep too well.

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W. STEEL.]

22. Do you feel any bad effects on your heart ?—There are times when I feel knocked up. 23. What advantage would there be if "change-houses were built and drying-apparatus provided 1 — The advantage to me would be that I could change and go home in dry clothes instead of wet ones. 24. The Chairman.] How far have you to go ? —About two miles. 25. Mr. Parry.] Would you sooner work below at a temperature, of 84° or on the surface at the same temperature ? —I would sooner work on top. 26. What do you think should be fixed as the temperature for a six-hour place ?—I am not a judge of temperature —I only know when it is hot and when it is cool. 27. Do you think there should be a maximum fixed for a six-hour place ? —Yes, I think it would be much better. 28. Is there any inconvenience caused through not having sanitary appliances ? —Yes. If a man has to run outside, and he is working a good way from the surface, he may lose a turn. 29. You say you have had no experience of taking temperatures % —No, none at all. 30. Mr. Fletcher.] What is the number of the place you work in ? —No. 6. 31. How far back from the face do you find the current of air I—About a chain. 32. If a brattice were put up from that point to your place would that improve it ? —Yes ; there is a good current of air, and the brattice could easily be put up. 33. Is there plenty of room there ? —There is not too much room; it is pretty narrow. 34. Have you complained to the manager about the heat and ventilation being bad ?—No. I have never made a complaint to the manager. I may have said, "Itis a bit warm." 35. Have you complained to the deputy or underviewer ?—No, I have never made a complaint. 36. Mr. Reed.] Are there not two air-shafts to the surface from Nos. 5 and 6 sections ?—I do not know. I only know of one. 37. Have you known of any ill effects from the men using the returns for the purpose of obeying the call of nature? —No, I have not. 38. At your place in No. 6 are you occupied in pillar-extraction % —Yes. 39. You find the place very hot and unpleasant ? —Yes. 40. At times, when you are tapping the gases from the goaf, do you find the lamp burns dimly ? — Yes, we found it so particularly on Monday night. 41. Are you aware that the presence of carbon-dioxide makes it burn dimly % —Yes. 42. So that you know that when the lamp burns dimly the air is bad ?—Yes. 43. Does the humidity in the atmosphere cause you to feel exhausted ?—Yes, that is so. 44. Consequently, do you not think it would be to the company's advantage to give you better air—you could then do more work ? —Yes. 45. As regards the timbering leading to your place, does the company keep it well repaired ?— Yes. 46. In the event of a standard of temperature being fixed for such places as yours, and if the company could not provide that temperature without great expense, would you propose to stop those places altogether and knock the men off ? —They may be able to work them, with a shorter shift. 47. If that place were a little wider—wide enough to enable the brattice to be put in—do you not think there would be greater danger from falls ?—Well, they would have to put in stronger timber. 48. In answer to Mr. Fletcher you said that a chain away from your place there is a good current of air % —I would not say it is exactly a chain, but I think that is about the distance. There is a good cool current of air. 49. Do you regard the Northern as a safe mine to work in ? —Yes. 50. Have you made any complaints to the Inspector of Mines about the temperature of the mine ? —No, I have not. 51. Are you enjoying good health now ? —Yes, except that sometimes I have a headache. 52. When did you work in that place last ? —Monday night. 53. The Chairman.] You have a return airway a chain back from the face % —Yes, within a chain. 54. So that if anything happened to the intake you could return quite safely ?—Yes. 55. You were instructed to drive that place narrow ? —Yes; the brattice would have been in the way of the skip. 56. You found the air good last week ?—Yes, it was fairly good up till Monday night. 57. Do you think the fan has improved the genera] ventilation of the mine throughout % —I do not see how it could improve Nos. 5 and 6 sections, nor the Majuba district. 58. You have just said there was a good current of air a chain back % —But that has nothing to do with the fan ; it is a mile away from there. ' 59. But, then, you said that Nos. 5 and 6 sections were the worst district in the mine ?—Yes, I think it is—in the working-face, where the air is bad. 60. It is only a matter of a short time when you will have that place finished, is it not ? —Yes. 61. Do you think it will be all right then ? —Yes, as long as the return road is kept clear. 62. You say there is no ill health resulting from the utilization of the return-ways by the miners for depositing excreta. Is there no inconvenience apart from ill health —no unpleasantness or inconvenience in other ways ? —Yes, the smell is very bad. Ido not know that the manager knew anything about it, or probably it would have been shifted. Frank Little sworn and examined. (No. 4.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Little I —A miner. 2. How many years' experience have you had % —Thirty-six years. 3. Where.have you gained your experience ? —ln England, New South Wales, and New Zealand.

C;— 4.

[f. little

4. What length of time were you working at Home ?—I was in the Charlotte Pit at Newcastle-on-Tyne for ten years; in New South Wales for eight years—at Stockton, Bullock Island, Wallsend, and Tenilba. In New Zealand I have worked at Denniston and Seddonville (which was then the Cardiff Company's mine), and here at the Northern Mine. 5. How long have you been here ?—Two years and ten months. 6. Will you tell the Commission briefly the nature of your complaints ? —I complain of any company not being forced to have fans for ventilating the mine, the sanitation of the mine, and the change-houses. 7. Have you had any experience of bath-houses ?—No ; but I want to try them. 8. How far have you to walk from the mine to your home ?—Nearly three miles. There is no township nearer the mine than that. 9. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you ever made any complaint about the ventilation?—l have made a complaint regarding the ventilation in a place where they had me working a six-hour shift, but I generally come out when I find the air too bad. 10. How often have you had to come out ?—I have not come out now for a long time. I would like to see something recorded here to ensure a current of air being provided by a fan. 11. Are you aware that there is a fan in the Northern Mine % —Yes. 12. The Chairman.'] Since the fan has been installed, in what sections have you been working ? — I have been in Nos. 5 and 6 sections, but the fan has never done that portion of the mine any good. There is one shaft sunk to ventilate No. 5 and another for No. 6, but the drive should be made big enough to bring the air after you. 13. Mr. Dowgray.] What distance are the drives away from the stentons ? —The place I am referring to is through the pillars and through old bords that have fallen. But I consider that any drive should be taken wide enough to get the brattice up to you. 14. Is it not the custom to take it so % —No, it is the custom to take it in narrow work. I suggest that it should be wide enough to bring the air into you. 15. The Do you use much dynamite ? —Yes, in the stone. 16. What time do you leave the place after a shot ?—I generally wait fifteen minutes before going in again. If the drive was wide enough I could go back straight away. 17. Mr. Dowgray.] How do you account for those Nos. 5 and 6 sections not benefiting from the fan I—l1 —I say that there should be legislation passed to provide for the air being drawn in one direction. These sections are isolated. The only section to which the fan does any good is near the fan itself. It has no chance to do any good except the wind is in certain directions. 18. The fan has not had any effect upon these sections % —No, the only thing which affects them is natural ventilation. Sometimes there is an intake and sometimes a return. I have been working close alongside the bottoms of these shafts. 19. Have you had any experience of the wet trucking-roads which have been referred to ?—No. 20. Is it possible for the return for one section to be the intake for another section ? —Yes, up there where those two shafts are. 21. How does this mine compare with the other mines you have worked in as regards ventilation ?—lt compares very unfavourably, because the drives are too narrow. It is all haphazard. 22. Mr. Parry.] You say, Mr. Little, that when a place gets too hot you quit ? —Yes. 23. Have you suffered any bad effects at all from working in these hot places ? —Yes, you cannot eat as well; that is the only bad effect it has had on me. Sometimes I have come home with half my " tucker " in my tin. 24. Which do you think is the more fatiguing—working on the surface in a temperature of 84°, or working below at the same temperature ? —I could not tell you. I have never worked outside a mine. 25. You think it is a great disadvantage not having change-houses and drying-apparatus : you are anxious to see them provided ?—Yes, especially where the men have a long way to walk home. 26. Have you had any experience at all of taking temperatures in mines—as a check inspector or as a workmen's inspector ?—No; but I can speak from experience of Mr. Wallace's place. He said it was 82°, and I can only say it was quite hot enough for me. 27. Do you think there should be a maximum heat laid down by law for a six-hour place ?—Yes, I do. 28. As regards sanitary appliances ?—I think there should be pans kept, where a man has a certain distance to walk out to daylight. In some places a man has to walk seven, or eight, or perhaps ten minutes, and that means a quarter of an hour in'a man's day's work. In places where they are handy to the surface it would be better for them to go outside. 29. What is your opinion as to the maximum temperature ?—I think 75° is high enough. 30.' Mr. Fletcher.] In regard to Nos. 5 and 6 shafts, where you say the wind changes the aircurrent, are those two shafts downcasts ? —I do not know what they are supposed to be. The air will be coming down one day and going up another day. 31. Then, what have those shafts been sunk for ? —They are isolated. The shaft they had there was closed by the creep ; they drove a drive up, but the old shaft collapsed. 32. The next shaft they put down was meant for a downcast ? —No, that was in a separate section ; there was no return round to them at all. 33. Are neither of those shafts connected with the main return so that the fan could have an effect upon the air going down the shafts ? —No, I do not think so ; that is what makes me think that the fan has no effect upon the two shafts. 84. Mr. Reed.] You stated that you have generally been working in places in the Northern Mine where the conditions were good ?—Yes, generally speaking, I have been lucky enough to cavil good places.

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F. LITTLE. I

35. How many places have you worked in ?—I have cavilled six or seven quarters. 36. Did you ever know of a mine where every place was good so far as the conditions were con- • (Tiled ?—-No; but I think it is possible to have good air in every place. 37. So that in this respect the Northern is the same as the others in which you have worked ?— No, Ido not agree with that. It seems a peculiar mine to work. 38. You complain of the air ?—No, I have not complained. Whenever I asked for brattice I have always got it. 39. It is too narrow, you said : do not you think it is safer ?—Yes, I agree it is safer. 40. Do you not think the management has made the drive narrow to protect the men from falls ? —I do not know what is the risk from falls. 41. You say it was sometimes fifteen minutes after blasting before you went back ? —The air in good enough after that time, but It is not really good. 42. Do you not think that was a short time ?—No. 43. Do you regard the Northern as safe a mine as any you have worked in during your thirty-six years' experience ?—Yes. 44. You think it would be outrageous to expect the company to provide bath-houses ? —No. 45. In regard to places requiring timbering, do the company's officials have them well repaired ? —Yes, I have not had occasion to complain of that. 46. You think 75° is an excessive heat to work in ? —I do not know anything about the wet or dry bulbs, but where Mr. Wallace was working it was quite warm enough for me. 47. Are there not two air-shafts connected with the surface in that mine ?—Yes. 48. In some well-managed collieries is it not a fact that there are some places where at times you cannot get the best of air conditions ?—Yes, in the beet of collieries that will happen, but not so much as it happens here. 49. Now, in pillar-workings where the temperature is high, would you recommend that work in those hot places be stopped, or that the management be put to great expense to install a new fan: what would you recommend ? —The working of short shifts. 50. Mr. Cochrane,.] If there were another alternative—the bringing of good air from these shafts to the faces—would you prefer that ? —Yes, I would rather work eight hours in good air than four hours in bad air. 51. In regard to judging temperatures, do you know anything about working in saturated air ? —No, I know nothing about bulbs. 52. Then you have been judging the whole facts as an experienced man ?—Yes. 53. The Chairman.'] While you were driving that place in No. 6 section you were working on shift work ? —Yes. 54. Did you use much explosives ?—No, none. 55. You were driving to make a connection to the old shaft ? —We holed a little place there to sink it for the air-current. 56. In driving you were working through the falls and creeps ?—Yes. 57. Do you think it would have been wise to drive a wide place ? —Well, if you have any distance to go, I do not know why you should not take the air with you. 58. Do you think you could have driven a wide place through there with safety ? —Yes, wide enough to take the air in. 59. What do you call a wide place ? —lt depends on the ground. Some places where I have worked have been 6 yards wide. 60. Mr. Parry.] You stated, I think, that a large amount of the face in which you were working was well ventilated ? —Yes. 61. Could you give us an estimate of how many faces had 100 cubic feet circulating at the face ? —Not at the face. Ido not think there were any. 62. Mr. Reed.] Have you ever measured air ? —Yes, with an anemometer. 63. In the new mine ? —No. John Mclntyre sworn and examined. (No. 5.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Mclntyre ?—A miner. 2. How long have you been a miner % —About ten or eleven years. 3. Where did you gain your experience ?—ln Australia and New Zealand. 4. How long in Australia ? —About four years and a half. 5. In what mines % —Corromil, South Bulli, and South Coast. 6. And at what mines in New Zealand ? —Denniston Hill and Northern. 7. What is your complaint ? —The ventilation, the temperature of the mine, sanitation, and changehouses. 8. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you made any complaints : if so, to whom ? —-I have made them on different occasions to the manager and also to the Inspector of Mines, Mr. Boyd Bennie. 9. Were the matters attended to ?—No. 10. t You were working in the mine when the fan was installed ? —Yes, about six months ago. 11. Has it made any difference ?—Only to the sections of the mine near which it is installed. 12. What do you consider the defect as regards the air ? —The current is not properly conducted. The fan, no doubt, is capable of supplying the mine throughout if the air was properly conducted. 13. What would you suggest ?—To put in proper stoppings and systematic bratticing. In the main haulage-road there is a door, certainly, but it is not often shut. 14. Do you consider the return airways sufficiently clear of debris ? —There is a certain amount of dirt stowed on the side, which stops the air to a considerable extent, and the airway is only driven 8 ft. wide.

9—C. 4,

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r .T. MCINTYRE

15. Have you had any experience of trucking on those wet roads? —I have trucked on them, but it has never affected me. I found the roads fairly dry at the time I trucked. 16. As regards the timbering?— When I went round with Mr. Wallace we condemned the timbering in No. 1 drive. 17. There were no accidents on account of the lack of timber ?—Not to my knowledge. 18. Mr. Parry.] Did you work on the surface in Australia ?—Yes. 19. Have you worked in hot places in New Zealand ? —Yes. 20. What effect does working in those hot places have upon you ?—I find that one cannot eat one's food as one ought to. It is also impossible for a man to work at home in his leisure. I worked in No. 6 drive through the creep, and I have had to leave that place —I have had to go out into the fresh air. On one occasion Mr. Morgan, the manager, and his deputy found me lying down—the foul air had got the better of me. 21. You became fairly exhausted through working in the hot place ?—Yes, that is so. 22. You say you have worked on the surface in Australia. I want to know if it is more fatiguing working on the surface at a temperature of, say, 84° than it is working at the same temperature underground ? —lt is more fatiguing underground. ,23. Do you think that a maximum heat should be fixed for a six-hour place ? —Yes. 24. What temperature would you fix ? —Not over 75°. 25. Have you had any experience with the thermometer ? —No. 26. You do not know the difference between the wet and dry bulb ? —No. 27. You know what effect working in hot places has upon you ?—Yes. 28. Would it be any advantage to the miners to have proper change-houses and drying-apparatus ?— Yes, a great advantage. Last week I went home saturated with sweat as the result of working about those pillars. I might state that the management has done as much as possible to get the air there, but the fan does not do its duty to the mine. The brattice has been taken from the corner of the pillars, and the fan will not draw the air round the pillars. It is not being drawn through that section of the mine, though there is absolutely good air back from the face. 29. Do you think that change-houses would be of benefit even if the men were living handy ?—Yes. 30. What inconvenience are you put to in regard to sanitary appliances ? —From most parts of the Northern Mine it is a long way to walk to the surface, and a man is liable to miss his turn of skips. It takes him quite five minutes to walk each way, and from some sections it takes much longer, and it is outrageous to expect him to walk right outside. 31. What is the result ? —The smell of the filth is very offensive. 32. Do you ever feel sick at all as a result ?—No, I cannot say I do. 33. Would you not feel sick if you came into contact with a place of that description after having crib ? —lf you stopped amongst it ; but one must get away from it and avoid it. 34. And you think it would be a great advantage both to the companies and to the men if a maximum temperature were fixed ? —Yes, I think it would. 35. You say that you made complaints to the Mining Inspector and also to the management of the mine ? —Yes. 36. And no improvement has resulted ? —No, none at all. 37. Mr. Fletcher.'] You spoke about a door : do you pass through that door on your way to work ? —Yes. 38. Does the air go to the left or to the right to get to your section ?—To the left. 39. And you say that that door is often open ? —Yes. 40. Is there no trap-boy to attend to it ? —No. 41. The Chairman.] Are there any instructions issued by the management on the subject ? — Ido not know of any. 42. Mr. Fletcher.] Of course, it is to your advantage to have that door open ?—Ye.s. 43. The Chairman.] Can you say why it is not shut ? —I cannot say. 44. Do you know of anybody having been interfered with for shutting it ? —No. 45. Have you known of any one asking to have it shut ?—No. 46. Mr. Reed.] You have sworn that you have been working in mines for ten or eleven years in New South Wales and New Zealand ? —Yes. 47. How long have you been engaged as a hewer of coal ? —About nine years. 48. And the one year ? —Trucking. 49. You. referred to an occasion when you had bad air ?—Yes. 50. Is it a fact that the fan was drawing the air from the extraction pillars an abnormal condition ? —That is a different time altogether. 51. From where did your section get this air?— From the back of the mine. 52. Consequently the door referred to would have no effect no the condition of the air ?—No effect at all. 53. In that mine are hot places the rule —are most of the places hot? —No, not necessarily. 54. Is there a high proportion of the places hot ? —No, only in Nos. 5 and 6 sections. 55. Have you ever worked in a mine where there were no hot places ? —No. 56. There is good air in your place ? —Yes. 57. Have you ever left the mine on account of the heat ?—-No. 58. In regard to the bath-houses and change-houses: You stated that you had a long way to walk home. If you were living close to the mine, would you prefer to use the bath-house at the mine ? —Yes. 59. Do the Northern Company's officials keep the mine reasonably well timbered ? —Yes. they do. 60. In New where you were working, what sanitary arrangements were there?—There were none. We were allowed to use the retucn-air course,

j. MCINTYRE.

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61. Would you regard the Northern as a, safe mine ?—Yes. 62. During your period at this mine have you observed that the air has improved ?—Yes, it has improved. 63. Mr. Cochrane.] Which section are you working in ? —lt is called the " old stone drive." 64. Is it simply a single drive or connected with the other workings ? —lt is connected with the other headings. 65. Do you get natural ventilation ? —Yes. 66. In regard to the door you spoke of, it would not matter if the door were shut or open ? —Not for that portion of the mine. 67. Mr. Parry.] Did you ever suffer from indigestion ? —Yes, a lot. 68. For how long ? —I have been suffering with it for twelve months. 69. Have you consulted a doctor about it ? —No. William Morgan sworn and examined. (No. 6.) 1. The Chairman.] You are manager of the Northern Company's mine at Hikurangi, Mr. Morgan ?—Yes. 2. What certificates have you?—A first-class coal-mine manager's. 3. How long have you been a certificated manager?— About seven or eight years. 4. How many years of mining experience have you had?— Twenty-eight years. 5. Where? —Seven years in England, two years in Newcastle, Australia, eighteen months in Tasmania, and the balance in New Zealand. 6. What mines have you worked in in New Zealand? —Waihi, Kaitangata, Castle Hill, Huntly, Brunner, and Northern. 7. Has all your management been in connection with this mine? —No, I was manager at Huntly for over twelve months, at Brunner for twelve months, and I have been here between three and four years. 8. How many men do you regularly employ at the mine?— Above ground 10 to 12, and underground about 65. 9. Mr. Fletcher.] We were through your mine yesterday. How long do you think that No. 6 section will take to work out ? —lt all depends how far you mean back. 10. So as to get into better air? —About three days. 11. What is the cause of the air not being circulated properly? —We are merely taking out the pillars that have been buried, and the heat is coming from the falls. 12. Did that creep take place before or since you took charge?—A short time before I took charge. 13. Were those two shafts in sections 5 and 6 sunk for ventilation purposes?— Yes; they were intended to be upcasts at that time. 14. With natural ventilation? —Yes. 15. Is there any means of connecting one with the air-return so that the fan could have an effect upon that portion of the mine?— Well, they are connected, but still that shaft acts as an upcast. 16. That may be, but the witnesses have stated that the air reverses, and so it would appear that you cannot depend on it? —I have not found that since the fan was installed. The current has always been in the one direction since then. 17. Have the men complained very much about the ventilation generally, or have they done so since the fan was erected ? —Not so much. 18. The heat is the result of those falls?— Yes. 19. Mr. Cochrane.] In regard to the pillar-workings, Mr. Morgan, do you know of any practical method by which you could extract perhaps two or three pillars, so that the air could circulate round? Are there other circumstances present which tie you down in regard to that?—At the present time the circumstances are such that the pillars have so fallen as to render it out of the question to take out more than one at a time. Where it is practicable we take out two or more pillars at once. 20. Will you please explain the plan to me [plan referred to]. You can take out only two or three pillars at a time? —Well, where the pillars are of sufficient size 1 take out two or three at a time, but where they are very small I just take off a portion, because it does not pay to drive to take the other portion. 21. Mr. Reed.] How many men have you working in the mine now? —About sixty-five. 22. Did you inform me yesterday that there were fifty? —Yes, but that was on one shift. 23. So that the maximum number working at one time is fifty men and three horses? —Yes. 24. Have you measured the air in your fan-drift? —Several times. 25. What is the average quantity of air passing per man?— From 600 to 1,100 cubic feet. 26. What is the total quantity? —25,000 ft. to 28,000 ft. per minute. 27. What would that average per man employed underground?—lt has averaged from 600 ft. to 1,100 ft. per man per minute, according to the number of men on the shift. 28. By what quantity does that exceed the statutory requirement? —Well, the statute requires 150 ft. for a man and 600 ft. for a horse. 29. If you have such a large quantity, why do you not manage to give the men more air?— Well, I think the mine is very well ventilated. 30. Do you consider Steel's place ventilated at all?—No, not at present; his place is about finished. 31. And Wallace's place?—It is ventilated, but not sufficiently.

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[W. MORGAN.

32. During the course of your experience of twenty-eight years have you not found it is impossible on all occasions to have every place well ventilated? —I have found it is not practicable to do so. 33. Do not circumstances occur to make the air dull at times? —Yes. 34. Have the men complained to you about the deposition of excreta in the mine?—No, but I have had occasion to caution them about going into certain parts for that purpose. 35: How long ago? —Pretty well ever since I have been in charge. 36. Have the men asked for bath-houses and change-houses at the mine? —No, they have not asked me for them. 37. Does your company give you a free hand regarding timber for the mine? —Yes. 38. As regards a fixed standard of temperature?—l think it would be hard to fix a standard to be applicable to every place. 39. Wiry?— The conditions would hardly warrant it. 40. As regards the oxygen standard, would you be in favour of having that incorporated in the law so that a minimum quantity of oxygen should be provided ?—The same thing would apply to that as to the other. 41. Does the Inspector of Mines frequently visit your mine? —Yes, about three or four times a year. 42. Does he thoroughly investigate all the working-places in" the mine? —He does not go into all parts of the mine. 43. Do you consider that he makes a thorough examination?— Yes. 44.. Is he strict with regard to you?— Well, I can only say that I think he carries out his duties conscientiously. 45. Does he give you orders? —Yes, he points out things sometimes which he considers require attention. 46. In driving your places narrow, what is your object?— Well, our bords in the solid workings are driven 8 ft. wide. It is not practicable to drive them much wider, because the roof will not stand it. The narrower bo rd ensures safety. 47. As the result of driving them narrow, have you made the men safe from falls?— Yes. 48. Does that narrowness make it more difficult to ventilate the section? —Yes, it does, more particularly when there has been a creep. 49. Your gain in safety, then, makes up for your loss in ventilation? —I admit that I do not get the same results in regard to ventilation. 50. In case of falls from the roof, how many means of escape have the men from the mine?— There are six tunnels through to the surface. 51. How many more is that than the statute actually requires?—We have four more than the law requires. 52. Regarding the wet state of the mine : where does the water come from? —We are troubled sometimes with water when we get heavy rains—it finds its way down where the pillars have been extracted. It is flood-water. 53. Would it be possible to drive a water-level to take that water off?— No. 54. Have you ever found any inflammable gas in your mine?— No. 55. Do your men carry out the daily examination with a safety-lamp? —Yes, the deputy does, to make certain that the mine is safe. 56. Has he ever found firedamp in the mine? —No. 57. Did the Inspector draw your attention to the necessity for a ventilating-fan nine months ago?—l think the matter was brought up more than nine months ago. A fan was practically promised before my coming here. 58. Are you aware that the Inspector was for years urging your company to get a fan? —Yes, previous to my coming here. 59. When was the fan ei*ected? —Shortly before last Christmas. 60. Have the men ever informed you that the fan has improved the ventilation?—No, they have not informed me. 61. Hare the men ever suffered through falls of roof? —There was one case where a man was hurt, but he had been cautioned by the deputy about timbering his working-place. 62. Did he enter it in his book?— No. 1 do not know why. 63. Then the deputy neglected his duty? —-Yes, but not intentionally. 64. You consider the mine to be a safe mine as regards timbering?— Yes. 65. Mr. Bowgray .] In reply to a question by Mr. Reed you said, Mr. Morgan, it was not possible —or, rather, not practicable —to prevent there being hot places in the mine? —It is not practicable under the conditions we are working in. 66. What standard of temperature do you fix for six-hour places? —We fix no standard of temperature; it was simply agreed between the union officials and myself. 67. The, Chairman.'] What would be a reasonable temperature to require the reduction to a six-hour shift? —It depends upon the conditions of the mine. Sometimes a peculiar smell in the old workings would bear on the point. 68. Can you give us any idea of a temperature that you might fix?—We may fix it at 80°. 69. Was your attention drawn to the temperature in Wallace's place three months ago? —Yes, about that time. 70. Are those shafts that have been referred to upcasts? —They are both upcast shafts. 71. If they are both upcasts, how can the fan have any effect on them? —The fan has no effect upon them. 72. Then the fan has no effect upon that section at all?—No, it has not the effect I would like it to have.

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w. Morgan.] 1

73. Then, will you explain how it could have an effect? Do you wish to convey the impression that you want it to have an offect? —It creates a large circulation of air at'the foot of those workings. 74. Where do they get their intake!— From Nos. 3 and 4 districts. 75. In regard to the door to which reference has been made—is it oftener open than shut? — No; it is shut to prevent the fan from drawing through that roadway-—to keep the fan from making a short circuit. 76. It will affect the volume of air at the bottom? —Not much. I have tried it both ways several times. 77. With your experience of the ventilation in that mine, do you believe that a fan was the best means of ventilation?— Yes, I believe in the fan. 78. In your travels through the mine have you noticed an excessive amount of filth?—-No; J have warned the men on several occasions and told them to use certain roads. 79. Has your attention been called to it?—l have noticed it myself and drawn the men's attention to it. 80. Have there been any men carried out of your mine on account of bad air?— None. 81. Are you sure? —Positive. 82. You are positive that there was not a man called Thompson and a deputy called Dole carried out? —Not through the effects of bad air. It was the result of a bad shot —they went back too soon, and were overcome by the fumes. 85. In regard to the Inspector's examination, would it be safe to say that he examines only half the mine?— Sometimes more than half, but on no occasion 'does he examine the whole mine. 84. Mr. Parry.] Do you consider, Mr, Morgan, that the 'drive in No. G section that leads to Wallace's face is a well-timbered drive? —I do not consider; it a well-timbered drive, but it is sufficiently timbered. 85. When you say that, you know'that the timber is broken? —Yes. 86. Yet it is safe? —Quite safe. My experience has taught me that that drive is safe. 87. Has the Inspector of Mines spoken to you of the broken timber? —Yes. 88. Have you obeyed his orders? —If a complaint ia made to me I have complied with any orders on the matter. Of course, with the class of timber we use nowadays, it may be all right to-day and broken to-morrow. 89. You said, in answer to Mi , . Reed, that you coijld not put in a wide drive in those places simply because you were afraid of the roof falling in?---Yes. 90. Yet it was necessary for you to drive that drive?— Yes- in order to get that coal. 91. And you say that it would be impossible to fix a maximum heat for a six-hour place?—[ did not say it would be impossible. 92. You said you did not see how it was practicable?— Yes. 93. Well, seeing that it is necessary to make that drive small, and that you are not able to convey the ventilation properly into the face, how are you going to better the conditions for the men who have to work there? —Under certain conditions we drive a place small because there is not much room. 94. But, Mr. Morgan, that man has to live iti that place';?— Yes. 95. What do you offer that man?—ln what way? 96. You say it is necessary to get the coal out, and yet you contend it is not practicable to fix a maximum heat. What are you going to do?— When certain conditions obtain we will put them on a six-hour shift. 97. You admit a six-hour shift is necessai.-y?—l do not say it is necessary, but we do it. 98. Do you admit that a maximum he-at should be fixed for a six-hour place? That is my question? —I do not admit it. 99. If you could not conduct the air there you admit that there should be a reduction in the shift?— Yes." 100. If you admit it in the one case you must admit it in the othier?—Yes. 101. Then you do admit it?— Under certain conditions a maximum may suit, but not under others. 102. The Chairman.'] Can you suggest a case in which, a difficulty might be met with in trying to fix a maximum ? —The conditions of a mine may be such that a peculiar smell may be given oft from fallen strata : if you fixed a maximum for that place it might pot be suitable for another place. 103. As a practical and experienced mine-manager,,, is there any way by which you could determine the condition —a fair thing to the men and a fair thing to the management —an average working condition which calls for a six-hour shift? —I could not suggest any standard myself. 104. Can you suggest anything that would prevent a man arrivi.ag at a standard? —What would be a standard suitable in one place would not be suitable in another. I know of no medium. 105. Mr. Parry.'] You agree with the general principle that a maximum heat should be fixed? —No, I do not agree on chat. 106. What is necessary in the first place to constitute a six-hour place? If you cannot conduct the air into the place would a man be entitled to a six-hoar sK.ift?—Well, of coiirse, the temperature would be taken into consideration. 107. The Chairman. ,] What temperature would you consider necessary ?--— I would not like to suggest any temperature. 108. Can you not suggest an idea, of the temperafrufre?—Well, 80° wet is good sometimes. I might reduce with that as a standard. 109. Have you ever reduced to six hours at a less temperature than 80° I —l may have done so, but the temperature was not taken—just the general cowditions were taken into consideration.

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[W. MORGAN.

110. Well, then, wliat other conditions besides the temperature would operate in determining a reduction to a sjx-hour place?—A place may be wet and dirty, or, again, it might have a peculiar smell, and these conditions would influence me in reducing the hours to six. 111. Can you say, as -Par as the temperature alone is concerned, what you would fix it at?— Well, with general conditions, I would fix it at 80° wet. 112. If there were other conditions present would you reduce it at less than 80°? —Yes. 113. Can a man work eight hours with credit to himself and satisfaction to his employers in a temperature of 80°? —Probably not. 114. Can you say, considering the temperature alone, at what heat a man can in ordinary health and under average conditions do a fair, honest day's work without taking too much out of himself, and yet doing fair justice to his employer?—l should think that above 75° it would be trying, and at 80° I would reduce to a six-hour shift. 115. Mr. Parry.'] You say that you have never been asked by the employees for change-houses until just latety ? —Not that 1 am aware of. The question has not been brought before me as a grievance—a serious one. 116. Would you take it seriously if the secretary to the union had asked you? —Yes. 117. Have you not been approached in that way? —No, not that I am aware of. 118. But you have a recollection of the matter being discussed? —I am not certain on that point. Ido not think I have any correspondence on the matter. 119. What is your opinion, Mr. Morgan, in regard to the necessity for change-houses and places for the men to wash?—My general experience among coal-miners is that they prefer to wash at home. 120. You have never heard any complaints about the men washing at home, and the inconvenience ? —No. 121. Which would you prefer—to change at the mine and wash, or walk home in wet clothes? —It depends how far one had to walk. If I lived close to the mine I would go home. 122. What do you call " close to the mine " ?—Say, half a mile. 123. If 3"ou were approached bj' the organization would you provide change-houses? —That would be a matter for the company to deal with. 124. The Chairman.] Would you recommend it?—lf 1 thought it would benefit the miners generally, and if I thought they would utilize the change-houses, I would recommend it. 125. Mr. Parry. ] Your recommendation would have some weight?— Yes, 1 think it would go a long way towards it. 126. Do you have any interference by the superintendent of the mine I —That is a question I would prefer not to answer. 127. Have there been representations made to you by the superintendent regarding the betterment of the mine which you have ignored? —No. 128. In connection with the temperature standard, do you mean 80° wet to be saturated? —Yes. , 129. Of course, you have already said that you think a man is not. capable of doing justice to himself at that heat?—He is not so capable. 130. You consider your mine a safe mine to work in? —Yes. 131. You have only had one serious accident? —Yes, and, of course, a few minor ones. 132. Have less accidents happened under you in this mine than in an} 7 other mine that you have managed? —No, I cannot say that. 133. Do you know anything about a man becoming exhausted through working in the heat?— I heard him say so. 134. Do you agree with that? —No, I cannot say it is a fact. 135. I presume that you have worked in hot places?—lf a man follows mining for twenty-eight years he probably has done so. 136. Have you felt any bad effects from working in such places? —I have worked in places where I did not feel quite as fit as I would have felt had I been working in a cool place. 137. What effect did it have on you? —A man gets exhausted sooner. A man's appetite is not quite so good. 138. And your sleep?—He may not sleep quite so well if his place were very hot. 139. Have you suffered from indigestion through working underground? —I cannot say that 1 have. 140. Have you heard any complaints from the men that they suffered from indigestion? — Not to my knowledge. 141. Do you think that mining is a healthy occupation or an unhealthy one? —I do not consider it a very-unhealthy occupation. 142. Do you consider working on the surface more healthy than working underground?— Working on the surface is more healthy. 143. Much the healthier?—l could not say to what extent. 144. Believing that working underground is unhealthy, what would you advise to improve the condition and prolong life, speaking as a man with long experience ?-—Good ventilation is necessary. 145. And in the place of bad ventilation, what would you suggest?—An attempt to improve it. 146. And where good ventilation cannot be provided? —The hours of work should bo reduced. 147. Mr. Reed.] Do you consider your mine is being , managed in the best interests of the men as far as working conditions are concerned ?—At the present time, yes. 148. And you have taken every precaution in the interests of the men?— Yes. 149. Mr. Parry.] In regard to that question, do you say that the mine is worked in the best interests of the miners? —In the best way under the conditions prevailing. 150. Mr. Seed.] Under usual conditions of mining, is it worked in the best interests of the men ? —Yes.

W. MORGAN.

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151. Mr. Parry.'] But working in the best interests of the men would be detrimental to the company, is that not true? —Tes, that is so. 152. The Chairman.'] About these bath-houses : can you give us any idea as to what it would cost to erect a house with a set of showers such as you have heard described, and whether such a scheme is workable, and what would be the probable cost ? —1 do not think it is workable. We have not sufficient water. Our water-supply is very limited in the summer, and if we had bath-houses we would be short. 153. Is there not water to be obtained from the creeks? —No, it is mineralized. It is the water from the mine, and could not be utilized for either boilers or baths. William Levi Habris sworn and examined. (No. 7.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a miner, Mr. Harris? —Yes. 2. How long have you been mining? —Twelve years. 3. Where? —Kiripaka for seven years, and also at Hikurangi. 4. What is it you complain of?— Sanitation, ventilation, and change-houses. 5. Mr. Dowgray.] I understand that you were check inspector?— Yes. 6. In the course of your inspections, have you had occasion to make complaints?— Only once or twice in the Hikurangi Mine. 7. Were the matters remedied ? —Not always. 8. To whom did you complain?—To the deputy. 9. You did not consider the air in the mine to be properly conducted round the face?—No, I did not. 10. What remedy would you suggest'? —The bratticing should be kept up. It is allowed, to remain too far back. 11. Have there been any accidents in that mine?— Not that I am aware of. 12. You consider it fairly safe and well timbered? —Yes. 13. Do you consider it safe in so far as there is only one outlet to the mine? —No. 14. There is no egress by the shaft? —I could not say; it is full of steam-pipes. 15. What would you suggest as a remedy?—l would suggest a shaft in the far end. 16. Is there any danger from an inbreak of water? —Yes, a little danger, but it is not very great. 17. If this water broke in the men in the dip would be shut off? —Yes. 18. Mr. Parry.] Have you worked in hot places?— Yes. 19. Have you felt any bad effects from working in such places? —Yes, it makes my head ache terribly; sometimes I become light-headed; and I get sick, and can hardly sleep at night. 20. Are you troubled with indigestion?—A little. 21. What advantage would change-houses and drying-apparatus be?— You could change and walk home in dry clothes instead of in wet ones. 22. The Chairman.] How far have you to walk? —About two miles. 23. What is the average distance that the miners have to walk?— From a mile to two miles and a half. 24. Mr. Parry.] Have there been any obstacles placed in your way during your inspections? —None at all; they have always given us every facility. , 25. What inconvenience are you put to in regard to sanitary appliances? —In our mine it is very awkward to get out to the surface. 2*6. The Chairman.] What is the effect on you when you come out hot? —One is liable to get a chill. 27. Mr. Parry.] Do many of the miners suffer from pleurisy?— Yes, one or two. 28. How long did you say you were working underground? —Twelve years. 29. Do you think it is a healthy occupation? —No, I do not. 30. Would you sooner work on the surface at a temperature of 84° than underground at the same temperature? —I would not work below at 84°. 31. Have you heard many men complaining of chest-ailments? —No. 32. Do you think it is advisable, both from the miners' point of view and the companies' point of view, to have a maximum heat fixed for a six-hour place? —Yes. A man would do as much in six hours as he could do in eight in a very hot place. 33. Mr. Dowgray.] Seeing that there is only the one means of egress from this mine, is there any feeling of uneasiness on the part of the men ?—Mr. Dunn promised to put a shaft down at the 9-chain peg, but it was never done. 34. The Chairman.] When was that? —27th March, 1911. 35. Mr. Doivgray.] In connection with these main headings and approaches to the old workings, were the boreholes kept? —Not as far as I know. 36. Mr. Seed.] How long has the present dip section been opened?— About ten months. 37. How long have you worked in it? —Seven months. 38. Have you ever experienced or heard of bad ventilation in that section ? —No, not of really bad ventilation. 39. What are the conditions in this mine—is it dry or otherwise? —Practically dry. 40. Have you ever found a shortage of timber in this mine? —No. 41. You said there was only one means of egress? —Yes. 42. Are you aware that there is another shaft in addition to the one referred to?—No, I do not know of it. 43. Are the men generally satisfied with the conditions?— Yes, except as regards the water accumulated in the old workings.

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[W. L. HARRIS

44. Are you positive that boreholes have not been driven ahead in compliance with the Act? —I do not know of them. 45. You do not really know anything as to whether they have been driven or not?— No. 46. Have you exercised your right. as a check inspector since the section was opened for coalmining?— No. 47. Why not?— There was no reason. It is nine months ago since we did any check inspecting. 48. Were you intimidated or frightened?-—No. 49. So that if there had been any cause for an inspection you would have made it?—We would have been told by the union to make an inspection. 50. How long does it take you to reach the surface for the purpose of relieving yourself?— Seven minutes. 51. What are the sanitary arrangements at the mine? —There is a w.c. outside. 52. And you can get to it in seven minutes?— Yes. 53. Do you consider that a long time? —No, but it is long enough. 54. What distance do you live from the mine?— Two miles. 55. Do you think the men in that section of the mine want a bath-house and a ohange-housef —I think most of them would use it if it were provided. 56. Have there been any accidents in the mine?— One man had his wrist broken about five months ago; it was a pure accident. 57. You think it is a safe mine? —Yes. 58. Are you aware that there is another shaft in course of construction within 10 ft. of the present one? —I have heard some talk about another shaft. 59. Does the Inspector of Mines frequently visit the mine?—He has been down once since I have been there. 60. Has there been any occasion to make a complaint?— No. William Robert Dunn sworn and examined. (No. 8.) 1. The Chairman.] You are the mine-manager at the Hikurangi Coal-mine, Mr Dunn?— Yes. 2. What certificate do you hold? —First-class coal-mine manager's certificate. 3. How long have you had your certificate?— Ten years. 4. Over what period does your mining experience extend?— Fifteen or sixteen years. 5. Where? —Mostly in the Auckland Province—in the Thames goldflelds. For five years I was manager of the Northern Mine, and I have been in my present position for three years. 6. Can you give us any idea of the probable life of your,mine?—Well, the seams in the north are very patchy. The mine has been in existence for eighteen years, but it is difficult to say how long it will be before it is worked out. 7. You have no reason to think it will peter out ?—Not for a year or two. 8. Mr. Fletcher.'] How do you ventilate your mine? —We are using a steam-jet. 9. Is that satisfactory?— Yes, so far as our mine is opened out. As time goes on we will have to put in a fan. 10. Has the Inspector urged the necessity for a fan ?—He has discussed the matter with me as manager. The company is looking forward to putting in a fan. 11. How many men have you employed underground per shift? —About fifty-three men. There are also a few in another section of the mine. 12. Does the quantity of air going into the mine reach the requirements of the Act—lso cubic feet per man ? —Yes. 13. Are you going to put in a fan shortly?— Yes, the company is looking out for a fan. 14. Mr. Cochrane.] In the event of the incline being blocked, what means of escape would the men have?— There is about 3 chains of the incline which is not yet duplicated, but in the event of that being blocked there is another shaft in course of construction which will be completed in two or three days. Then we will have three exits from the mine. I was in hopes of lowering the water sufficiently to enable the men to go through that section. 15. By what means are you lowering the water?—By tapping it from the present mine. We have lowered it 20 ft. 16. How do you tap it? —It is tapped underground by keeping sufficient boreholes in. 17. You say the air is quite up to the statutory amount: is that so at the working-faces?— Yes, the air is fresh going through the mine; it never becomes very warm, 18. Then why do you not guide it up in the ordinary way?—We are carrying it in the ordinary way. As a crosscut is holed a brattice is put up. If there is a complaint made it is always seen to. 19. Yes, but the current does not seem to be carried right up to the working-faces. The bulk of it appears to be short-circuited ?—There is certainly some leakage. 20. Mr. Reed.] Are you putting boreholes horizontally in to test for Avater?—This water question is practically finished. We have tapped the water by extending the boreholes. 21. Have the men any reason to be frightened of its coming in?— Not now. 22. Have the men ever applied to you for bath-houses to be erected? —No; I have never had it mentioned to me. 23. Yours is a practically new mine?— Yes, we have only had it opened nine months. It is practically in a state of development yet. 24. As regards the sanitation, what sanitary arrangements have you provided?—l have put up a w.c. 25. What is the-average time that would be occupied by the men in getting to it?—lt would take about ten minutes from the working-face and back again. 26. Do the men use this place? —I have never known an instance where it has not been used.

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W, R, DUNN.

27. As regards the fixing of a temperature standard, do you think it would be possible to fix such a standard by law, and would it be possible to apply it? —No, more especially in the mine previously under discussion—the Northern Mine. 28. Would spontaneous heating prevent the fixing of a standard? —It would in that mine, but not in our mine. The Inspector of Mines has told me at times that some of the hot places in the Northern Mine were on fire. 29. You prefer the existing state of affairs under which the Inspector is the arbiter as to the temperature?— Yes, I think it is best. 30. In preference to the fixing of a standard? —Yes, it is better for the Inspector to decide, under the. conditions existing in the north here. 31. Have you had any complaints in regard to the timber in your mine? —Not in the new section. 32. Have you had any accidents in the new section? —No, except that one man injured his arm. 33. Does the Inspector frequently visit your mine? —Yes, he has been there three times during the last nine months; he makes a thorough examination when he comes. 34. Does he frequently draw your attention to matters requiring attention?— Yes; if he finds anything that needs doijig he draws my attention to it. 35. Do you obey his instructions?—We endeavour to do so. 36. Mr. Doivgray .] In connection with this matter of the water, Mr. Dunn, I understand there was danger feared, and you gave the workmen authority to examine the plan?—l asked them to examine the plan, and we went into the matter together. The trouble is quite settled now, and the water is at the miners' feet, whereas previously it was at their heads. The water is reduced to their level. 37. Is the existing shaft satisfactory?-—lt is not in a workable condition. 38. Can it be put in workable condition?— They will not have to travel up the shaft at all. We are putting down a second shaft in addition to this one, which will be finished in a week. 39. Do you agree to this suggestion to sink another shaft? —I did not agree to it. 40. This new shaft will meet all requirements?— Yes, the ladder will be put in it. 41. It is in a suitable place?— Yes. 42. You stated that in your opinion there was a sufficient quantity of air entering the main intake to comply with the requirements of the Law. Would it surprise you to hear that the measurements show that the air does not come up to the quantity prescribed by the Act? —I think, according to Mr. Reed's reading, it worked out satisfactorily. 43. The Chairman. J How often do you take your air?—We do not make a regular practice of it. When the Inspector of Mines comes round we take it together. 44. In lowering the water are you going to tap it down below?— The balance of the water will be syphoned over lower down. After reducing the water we will put in another drive. 45. What is the main reason for putting in another drive? —At the present time we are going to use that one as a huge sump, closing it back on Sundays, and letting it off during the week. 46. Do you prefer artificial to steam-jet ventilation? —Any form of artificial ventilation is superior to natural ventilation. 47. Mr. Parry.'] Would you sooner have the workmen's inspector making inspections or not? — We prefer him to do so. It takes a certain amount of responsibility off our shoulders, and we feel more satisfied ourselves when he makes inspections. We are always willing for them to go round and see what is to be seen. 48. In answer to a question regarding the sanitary arrangements you said it would take the men ten minutes to go to the surface and return : do you not think that is a long time to ask a man to waste for that purpose?— No. It is not customary for a man to make a trip more than once in three days. It is not a case where a man is absolutely pushed for time. 49. You have had sufficient experience underground to know that a man will try to avoid going out if he can ? —I do not know that he would. 50. Do you not think that he would avoid going out if he could?— Not if he can get to the surface in five minutes. 51. But the mere fact of his trying to avoid going out is detrimental to his health, is it not? —Yes, if he does so. , 52. In answer to a question regarding the fixing of a maximum heat you said it would be impracticable, because the temperature, if taken 2 ft. from the face, would be a great deal higher than that taken 6 ft. or 7 ft. from the face? —Yes, I have noticed that difference. 53. You consider that is the impediment i» the way of fixing a standard heat?— The difficulty is in fixing a uniform temperature. 54. If the air in a man's working-place exceeds a certain temperature, do you not think it is advisable to make a reduction in hours? —Yes. 55. What is the cause of its being hotter in pillar-workings? —As the strata falls the coal heats, and the temperature of the atmosphere becomes higher. 56. The circulation of air cannot be very good if the temperature is high?—lt usually is high in pillar-workings. 57. You agree that it is necessary, but you do not think it is practicable, to fix a standard nea t? —I think the Inspector of Mines should be the arbiter in this matter. 58. The Chairman.] Assuming that the Inspector was a permanent resident within a few hours of the mine that would be all right, but heat will generate in a short time, and how could he act as arbiter if he were stationed at the Thames, say ; and you wished him to decide as to the heat in your mine? —It might be a case of gases causing the heat, and then it would probably pass off in a day. . t . 59. The question has been submitted to the Commission with a view to fixing a limit at which to reduce the hours? —In a working-place you might get a temperature of 84°, and in a corner of it the temperature might only register 75° or 77°,

10—C. 4.

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[W. R. DUNN

60. Jf that is so does it not prove that there is a lack of circulation? —Yes; but even with a current of air blowing into the face that condition might be present. 61. Mr. Parry. .] Is that the only point which will be an impediment in the fixing of a temperature?— Yes, the only thing I know of at the present time. 62. Do you think it is a serious obstacle? —Yes. 63. The Chairman.'] The centre of a man's place might be 6 ft. from his broken ground?— Yes. 64. Have you had any experience of reducing to a six-hour shift? —No, very little. The custom came in after I took charge of the Hikurangi Mine. 65. Mr. Parry.] Have you worked in hot places yourself?— Yes, but only on the goldflelds. 66. You are not in a position to give an idea of the injurious effect tliat a hot place has on a man?— Well, I am not in a position to give a solid opinion from my own knowledge. 67. If you were working in a coal-mine yourself, Mr. Dunn, would you not prefer to change at the mine? —Not unless I lived more than a mile away. We find that you cannot get the men to change—they prefer to change at home. If I lived within a mile I would prefer to change at home. 68. Do you not think it would be better to change and wash at the mine?—lt would certainly be better if they would do so conscientiously; it would be more healthy for them. 69. Is the Mining Inspector the arbiter now as regards hot places?— Yen, as far as I know. 70. Under what section of the Coal-mines Act has he that power?—l could not quote the section, but, of course, he has power to inquire into matters of dispute. 71. Do you think, Mr. Dunn, that mining is a healthy occupation?— Well, there is no reason to say it is not a healthy occupation. 72. You have not worked in hot places?—l have worked in many such places on the goldfields. 73. Have you heard men complain about their health? —No. 74. As a general thing, have you heard of miners suffering from indigestion?—No, I have had no complaints on that ground. 75. Have there been any men carried out fainting when working under you?— No. 76. Mr. Eeed.] Is it a fact that the company would be the losers by having hot places in a mine ? —Yes. 77. Does it pay to have hot places?-—No, it does not pay. 78. So it is to your advantage to keep the places cool?— That is so. We endeavour to do so. 79. You use your discretion in the matter of temperature?-—Yes. 80. You have worked yourself on the coal? —Yea, both on the coal and in gold-mining. 81. You stated that, owing to irregularity of temperature caused by the heating of the coal, it would be very difficult to fix a standard or to maintain one? —The spontaneous heating during the falls of strata would make it very difficult. 82. Would it be wise or practicable to go to the expense, when approaching a holing, of putting in a supplementary fan for that single place? —No, it would not. 83. Are you aware that that is the reason why most of the other countries do not adopt a fixed standard? —I do not know for certain, but it is a sound reason. 84. Mr. Parry.] Is it not a fact that the man who actually works in those places is the best judge of the effect it has upon him? —Yes, I should think he would be in the best position to judge. 85. The Chairman.] If a place is hot, how often do you take the temperature?—Tt is very rarely taken. You feel it, and judge from the condition of the air in the place. 86. What is to prevent you doing that from day to day? When it is up to a certain heat, how does it make any difference whether you determine the matter by the feel or by the actual temperature?—A dry place may be fit to work in up to a certain temperature higher than a moist place. It is generally the smell of the atmosphere which is coming from the fall of strata as much as the temperature that determines the matter. 87. You admitted to Mr. Reed that it is not advantageous to the company to have hot places? —Yes, I said it was not economical in the interests of the company to have hot places. - 88. Mr. Parry.] If you consider it a sound reason for fixing a maximum temperature, then it is equally a sound reason for not putting in good ventilation. Seeing that it does not pay to do one it cannot pay to do the other?—ln driving in a case like that you are generally driving for ventilation. You generally drive two headings, and one leads to the other. 89. Seeing that it is necessary to have hot places, do you not think that some different arrangements should be made for men working in such places than for other men?— Yes; but there are already recognized provisions for that. 90. You have heard the witnesses state to-day that they would sooner work in a temperature of 84° on the surface than in the same which goes to prove that working underground is the more fatiguing? —The bulk of the men have worked underground since they were boys. They are making that statement from hearsay. I suppose the surface conditions would be better. 91. Well, now, what would you sugerest as a maximum heat? —Some places are fit to work in up to 80° if the air is pure, while other places may be foul with a temperature as low as 76°. 92. Would you suggest, then, that a temperature be fixed at 75° to 77° moist and 79° dry?— Well, I have not taken a great deal of temperatures in hot places. 93. Then you tell us again that you are not in a position to suggest a maximum heat simply because you have not had sufficient practical experience?— With the reading of the thermometer. 94. The Chairman.] Are you in a position to a valid reason why a statutory standard cannot be fixed? Would such a standard be unworkable? —I have met with hot and cold places. 95. Has that given you sufficient personal experience to enable you to express an opinion?— I think so. 96. You think it is not possible to fix a statutory standard?— Well, in answer to that, I would point out that heat is not the guiding factor in deciding. 97. You think, then, it is not necessary to fix the heat?— It would be a very difficult matter to settle for a six-hour place.

W. R. DUNN.]

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98. Mr. Parry.'] Do you think that a man is able to do justice to himself under heated conditions?—No, I do not think so. 99. Then what are you going to suggest?— Well, the shortening of his hours. 100. Mr. Reed.] By 80° do you mean dry or saturated atmosphere?—l mean saturated atmosphere. 101. You have heard the miners this morning express their opinion on standard temperatures : do you think you know as much as they do on the subject?— Yes. 102. Do you think that a man who admits he knows nothing on the subject of temperature is capable of fixing 75° as a standard? —No, I hardly think so. William McKinlay sworn and examined. (No. 9.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. McKinlay? —A miner. 2. How long have you been a miner? —Twenty-nine years. 3. Where have you gained your experience?—At Shag Point, Denniston Hill, Mokihinui (Cardiff Coal Company), Brunnerton, Hikurangi, Drury, and Kiripaka. I have also been ten years gold-mining with the Kauri Gold Estates Company, and in the Kathleen, Crown, Waihi, and the Phcenix Mines. 4. What is your present position?—l am a miner, and also president of the Kiripaka branch of the miners' union. 5. What is your complaint in regard to Kiripaka? —We have no complaint respecting Kiripaka except that we plead for a sanitary system and change-houses; also for improved conditions to prevent accident. 6. Have you had any accidents at Kiripaka?—We have had a fair sprinkling. 7. Mr. Dowgray .] Have you no complaints in regard to ventilation?—We have been very well blessed with good ventilation during the last two years; it has been satisfactory to all concerned. 8. In regard to accidents, were they caused by inexperienced miners working on coal? —In regard to one fatal accident, two men were firing two shots together in one hole each. One shot went off, and the man whose shot did not go off returned thinking the fuse had failed to light, and while he was looking to find it it went off and killed him. 9. How long did lie remain away?— Three or four minutes. 10. Was it not unwise to return so soon?—I admit that it was very unfortunate. 11. Do you not consider that it was his own fault? —Well, yes, it really was. 12. Are we to understand that the miners fire their own shots? Is it not contrary to the rules?— These men were not working on coal. 13. What remedy would you suggest? —I should say that electricity should be used wherever more than, one hole is to be fired. 14. Have you had any experience of firing with batteries? —Yes; they give every satisfaction. 15. If they were used a case like this could not possibly occur? —No, it could not. 16. Have you had any other accidents? —There have been a few, but that was the only serious one. 17. Mr. Parry.] You say there are no complaints about the ventilation?— No. 18. You quite understand what it is like working in hot places? —Yes, it is very exhausting. 19. Will you describe the effect to the Commission? —The average miner works fairly hard while he is at it. When he has done about half an hour's work he has to get out and lie down. 20. The Chairman.] What do you call a hot place? Have you had any experience of temperatures? —Not of temperatures taken with a thermometer. 21. Mr. Parry.] Do you find that the heat affects you in any other way —as to your sleep, for instance? —No. 22. Do you think a standard temperature should be laid down for a six-hour place? —Yes, just as for a wet place. 23. What is the heat you consider sufficient to make it a six-hour place?—l could not really say, but a standard should be laid down. 24. What is your opinion about change-houses? —That they are a necessity; also baths. We have men in Kiripaka who wash and change at the mine with the good will of the engine-driver. 25. How many men have you working there? —About forty. 26. How long will that mine last? —I cannot say —possibly about twelve months. 27. As regards the sanitary appliances, do you think they should be provided?— Yes. About eighteen months ago Mr. Tattley, manager of the mine, asked me to see about getting a sanitary system installed in the mine. I must admit that I neglected to follow his instructions. The matter was not attended to, though Mr. Tattley gave me instructions to have it done. 28. Do you find that mining is a healthy occupation?—To some men it is just as health} 7 as any other occupation, but to others it is not. There are scores who have ruined their health through following mining closely. 29. Mr. Cochrane.] You say that you know scores of men who have injured their health?—l mean gold-miners. 30. Mr. Reed.] You were an underviewer last year?— Yes, just about a year ago. 31. Are you a certificated underviewer? —No, I failed at the examination. 32. How far is the telephone-station away from the mine in case of accident? —About a quarter of a mile. 33. You stated that the life of this mine would be about a year?—ln the present workings they are doing the final extraction of pillars. It is possible that that district may be worked out in the time I mentioned. 34. Do you think they would be warranted in providing lavatories for that short period?—l do not think there will be much need to worry about Kiripaka, but a,t the same time we should have them. Tt is possible that by the time a law is passed Kiripaka may be worked out.

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James Rolfe sworn and examined. (No. 10.)

1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Rolfe? —A miner. lam also secretary of the Kiripaka Miners' Union. 2. Do you hold any other office at the mine? —No. 3. How many years have you been mining?—A little over three, all at the Kiripaka Mine. 4. What is your complaint?—As regards sanitation, change-houses, and I should also like this Commission to consider the necessity for connecting the mine with a telephone, so that the doctor could be communicated with at all hours of the night; also we consider that men should pass an examination before men go on the coal. 5. Mr. Doivgray.] In connection with this telephone business, has any inconvenience been caused as the result of delay in the arrival of a doctor? —There has not, but if an accident occurred a messenger would have to be sent here, and another hour would be spent by the doctor riding out. In all such cases there should be telephone connection at all times with some centre. G. In connection with this suggestion in regard to men going on the coal?—To prevent accidents my union would suggest that a man should have three years' experience before being allowed to work on the coal—not necessarily at one mine. He might have put in a year at Hikurangi, a year at Kiripaka, and a year at Huntly. That would entitle him to apply to the Inspector of Mines for a permit to take charge of a face. 7. Do you consider he would then be fully qualified?— Yes. 8. Are you aware that there is a somewhat similar provision in the English Coal-mines Act ?—Yes, it is from that that we got the idea. 9. Mr. Parry.'] You have no complaints to make about the ventilation? —No. 10. What effect does working in hot places underground have upon your health?—lt has a very bad effect on me. I had a very trying experience in the new section of the mine, which, until it was improved recently, was very bad; I suffered from loss of appetite, and a man is not able to sleep at night. 11. What do you suggest for working in those hot places? —Some standard should be fixed. 12. Have you had any experience with the thermometer? —No. 13. But you believe that a standard is required? —Yes. 14. It would be the means of settling the matter as between men and officials? —Yes, undoubtedly. 15. As regards change-houses, baths, and drying-apparatus, will you tell us what you think is desirable? —They are all very necessary. As has already been explained, there are five or six men at the Kiripaka Mine who always wash and change before going home; they have small tins for washing purposes. 16. Have any obstacles been placed in your way by the mine-manager to prevent you from making examinations of the mine? —No. 17. What sanitary arrangements have you? —None. At the present time, however, it is no distance from where the men are working to the surface, but still the filth is there. 18. And you think that it is very necessary to have sanitarj r appliances provided?— Yes, certainly; I myself have vomited as the result of the filth. 19. Have you heard many complaints amongst the men as far as their health is concerned? —We have recently had an illustration out there when three men left the mine and took surface work because their health was being seriously impaired. 20. Do you suffer from indigestion? —No, but I have heard complaints about it. Ernest William Tattlby sworn and examined. (No. 11.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a mine-manager, Mr. Tattley?—Yes. 2. How long have you held a first-class certificate? —Thirteen or fourteen years. 3. Where did you gain your experience? —In the Waikato. 4. How long have you been in charge of Kiripaka Mine? —Five years. 5. How many men are you employing? —About fifty-five at the present time —thirty underground. 6. What is it you wish to place before the Commission? —-I desire to say that it is not necessary to have sanitary appliances in our mine. The men are never so far in but what they could come out to the surface, and we have had a good deal of difficulty in making them do so, even now when the mine-mouth is only 3 chains from their work. We have threatened the men with instant dismissal if they are found using any of th£ waste workings. 7. What is the greatest distance they have had to come? —About 22 chains. 8. How long would it take them to walk out and in again?— About ten minutes out and in. 9. Mr. Reed.] What is the average distance that the men have to cover at the present time? The extreme would be the average, because we are coming back with the dip pillars. 10. Have the check inspectors reported advising you to put a w.c. in the mine? —We have never had check inspectors at Kiripaka. 11. Have the men never taken advantage of making a check inspection of your mine?—No, they have not. 12. Have no complaints been made regarding defects at the Kiripaka?—No. 13. How frequently does the Inspector of Mines visit your mine?— About every three months. 14. What does he do when he examines your mine?—He has a look round and goes into every place, and generally through at least some of the waste workings. 15. Does he measure the air? —Yes, every time, with an anemometer. 16. Does he instruct you from time to time as to what he requires? —He has done so on two occasions, I think.; but during every other visit he has found everything satisfactory.

E. W. TATTLEY.]

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17. Ihere was a man killed by a blasting accident in your mine : how did it happen?— They charged two holes in a dip heading, lighting them both at once by placing a naked light at the end of the fuse. One fuse spit, but the other man could not get his to spit. They returned within five minutes, and the man whose shot had not gone off was scraping near the place to relight it, when it went off and he was killed. 18. What was the verdict of the jury?—" Accidental death; no blame attachable to anybody." 19. As regards temperatures in a mine, have you made a special study of the feasibility of fixing a standard ?—No, I have not given it any consideration, but I think it would be a good thing to have a standard. 20. To be insisted-upon under every condition?—No, because what may be a high temperature in one place would be quite comfortable in another place. 21. Do you know the difference between saturated air and dry-bulb air?—No, I have not given that any study. 22. What would you consider a suitable standard of wet-bulb temperature for ordinary conditions? —Possibly, about 80°; that would not be too high —that is, with a fair current and with the air fresh. Of course, in most of the hot places the air is stagnant, and that is worse than the heat. 23. If the air were dry and not saturated, what would you consider a reasonable maximum for the dry bulb?— Well, I do not know that it would make much difference. I am not an authority on that subject. 24. Mr. Cochrane.] With reference to that accident you described, have you anything to recommend to this Commission with a view to avoiding such things?—l have always been of opinion that where two or more holes are fired at once they should be fired by some patent apparatus, preferably a battery. 25.- The Chairman.} Can you give us any information respecting the feasibility of your suggestion? —Yes, we keep a battery at the mine for that purpose, and those two men knew that we had it and could have had the use of it. 26. Does it put the men to any considerable inconvenience to use the battery? —No; I should say it is the more convenient method. The great difficulty is that they are so expensive that the men would not care to buy them themselves; they cost about £20 for a battery and a cable. Many of the men prefer to fire with fuse, as with a battery all the holes must go at once. It might be advisable to prohibit the use of fuse. 27. Are batteries used in the large mines? —Yes, to a great extent. 28. Do the workmen provide the batteries? —No, the proprietors provide them. 29. Is it unreasonable to expect the proprietors to provide them? —No, I do not think so. 30. Could these batteries be worked by ordinary miners, or do you require experts to work them? —No, you could instruct any intelligent miner in ten minutes how to use them with safety. 31. Mr. Parry.] You say, Mr. Tattley, that you threatened to dismiss men for depositing excreta in the mines? —Yes. 32. Do you give any orders to the underviewer to provide sanitary arrangements in the mine? —No; but I think I discussed the matter with Mr. McKinlay when he was underviewer, and I think we decided that it was not worth while putting them in because the men were so near the surface. 33. Do you think it would be necessary to make a statutory requirement that men must make use of the sanitary appliances? —I should say so, to protect them against ill health. I consider that where the men could not reasonably get to the surface to relieve themselves sanitary arrangements should be provided, and also a heavy penalty for making use of other portions of the mine for that purpose. 34. You have no experience regarding the wet-bulb and dry-bulb thermometer?— No. 35. Have you worked in hot places? —Yes. 36. What effect does it have upon a man? —None, as long as the air is fresh. 37. Would you sooner work on the surface in a temperature of 84° than underground at the same temperature?—Underground —that is, of course, allowing that the air was fresh. _ 38. With vitiated air? —We are not talking about that. I said, provided that the air was sweet. 39. The Chairman.} What would be an injurious temperature?—lt would depend on the air and not on the temperature. 40. Is there any standard by which you could fix the injurious element?—l do not know of any. It would be a difficult matter to fix a standard. 41. Can you suggest any scheme by which a workable standard could be devised for determining a six-hour shift? You sa_y that the temperature is not an injurious element unless it becomes excessive? Is there any way of gauging or fixing a workable scheme by which a standard could be established so as to meet the injurious elements? —T could not say. That would require to be carefully considered by two or three experts. 42. Mr. Parr//.} You say, if there were a good fresh current of air, the heat of a place has no effect upon a man? —No, so long as it is not too hot. I should say that 85° underground with a good fresh current of air would, have no ill effect on a man. 43. With a good fresh current of air, what would be the cause of the heat?—l was in one place in-Waihi where the heat was attributed to the action of the water on the stone —that was the only explanation I heard of it, You could not go in there without perspiring, even when standing still. The same current of air which served that place also served other places which were quite cool. 44. Under those circumstances you say that if the air is fresh the heat must come from, the ground? —No, nothing of the kind. ' It might come from several causes.

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[E. W. TATTLEY.

45. Is there any difference between the heat underground and the heat from the sun?—l do not think there would be much difference. 85° is not a very excessive temperature. Men work in hotter places than that —for instance, in torpedo-destroyers the temperature is sometimes 200°. 120° is a very common thing in a stokehole. 46. The Chairman.'] What shifts do they work in a stokehole?— Four hours on and four hours off—twelve hours a day, seven days a week. 47. Mr. Parry.] Do you know that it would be impossible to live underground at a temperature of 200°?— No, I do not think so. 48. Do you think a man would live half an hour underground in a temperature of 200°?— If he could live in a stokehole at 200° he could live underground. 49. Have you ever been underground with the temperature exceeding 86°? —Yes, I have, working about pumps where the heat came from steam-pipes. There are many places where you get the temperature in excess of that. 50. What is the name of the mine where the temperature is so high?— You would get it in our mine, in the back—in the return airway; in Ralph's mine also. Of course, there were no men working there or travelling, except for making repairs. 51. They would not be constantly employed there, as in a coal-mine? —No, certainly not. 52. Do you think it is possible to fix a standard heat? —Yes. 53. What heat would you suggest —dry heat? —Well, 1 suppose 85° would be quite enough. 54. After exceeding 85° the place should be considered a six-hour place?— Yes, with the air fresh. 55. What is your opinion of the idea of change-houses and drying-apparatus? —The demand for them is very reasonable. They would add to the life of the miner if he would use them. 56. The change-houses to have half a dozen showers? —I do not think it unreasonable to ask that they should be provided. Of course, a lot of the men would not use them. I know of some men who go home and have a bath every day, though they have only a small bath-tub. It would not cost the company much, and it would undoubtedly be a convenience to the men. 57. Mr. Cochrane.'] With regard to your evidence respecting the heat in the Waihi Mine, were you on a casual visit at the time you speak of, or were you working in the mine? —I was working in the mine; I worked there six months. 58. Mr. Eeed.] Are you aware that temperature increases with depth?— Yes. 59. Would the air assume the temperature of the rocks? —It would undoubtedly be raised, and in a deep mine it would require a big current to keep it below normal. 60. And while the rocks raised the temperature of the air would it also be more vitiated? —I do not think it would, unless the air was mixed with gases exuding, from the measures. 61. So that heat does not of necessity mean vitiation? —No; they are two different things. 62. Mr. Parry.] Still, Mr. Tattley, the heat would have some effect on a man working constantly?— Yes, it probably would. 63. How did you feel at night after working in that hot place?—As well as possible, after a good scrub. 64. Not at all exhausted ?—No, not more than I would have felt if I had been working in a cold place. 65. I take it, then, that you would just as soon do a hard day's work in a temperature of 84° as in a temperature of 70°? —No; I have already said that 85° would be a fair maximum. How then can you expect me to say I would as soon work in a maximum temperature as in a lower one? 66. But you say you do not feel any ill effects from working in a hot place. Would you sooner work in a cool place ?—Yes, that is only reasonable. It is like everything else —it is hard to know where to draw the line.

Huntly Courthouse. —6th September, 1911. Botd Bennib sworn and examined. (No. 12.) 1. The Chairman.] You are Inspector of Mines under the Coal-mines Act for this district? Yes. 2. Mr. Beed.] I wish to ask you a question in connection with the ventilation of the Northern Colliery at Hikurangi. When the Commissioners visited that colliery there was a place called Steel's place, which appeared to be somewhat ventilated. We found the temperature 77° saturated, and there was a decided proportion of CO 2 present as indicated on the lamp. About a chain from where Steel was working there was a good current of air, but in those pillar-workings the air was very bad. It was the only bad'place in the mine. Can you explain to the Commission the cause of those" unsatisfactory conditions? —Yes, a creep took place amongst the pillars. In these pillars where Steel was working the system is to drive a 6 ft. place through the centre of the pillar, which is 14 ft. wide, leaving about 4 ft. of coal on either side of the roadway to support the roof. Two bords near that pillar have fallen in, and the crosscut ahead of it has also fallen in. Therefore it was isolated, and ft was not possible to drive a current of air into that section. The reason why the bord has been driven 6 ft. wide is that there was only 14 ft. of pillar If it had been driven wider it would be dangerous, and there was therefore not room to get brattice-cloth to conduct the air into the face, About a chain back from the face, through the roadway leading to one of the upcast shafts which ventilate that section, the air is good, and the miner having to fill the coal would travel the pass. It was much better to take the coal out in that way, even though it was inadequately ventilated, than it would be to leave the pillar in and run the risk of a fire in the mine.

B. BENNIE.]

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3. So that the manager's reason for working that way was to avoid more serious consequences? —Yes. 4. The reason for the narrow roadway was to prevent falls? —Yes. 5. Did you observe the timber broken? —Yes. 6. That is an old seam? —Yes, it is an old mine; but in a few weeks the ventilation will be linked up with the present system. 7. At present that linking-up has not taken place?— No. 8. You heard one of the witnesses state that two air-shafts connect with Nos. 5 and 6 sections? —Yes. 9. In regard to another matter which came up in connection with the Hikurangi Mine, it appeared that the air was somewhat indifferently distributed in the new dip workings : will you explain to the Commission the reason of that?— The manager seemed to have an idea to allow this air to go into the faces, down the road, and up another ventilating roadway. That system I did not approve of. Since the Commission was there another shaft has been put through, so that now the return airway is very much improved, and, as the manager stated, a fan is to be put in. It is merely a matter of ventilation, and there is no reason why it should not be adequately ventilated. 10. I understand it is a mine in its early stages of development, and they have not installed a permanent system?— Yes, it is only about eight months since the mine was opened. They put the men into the new section without taking into consideration the quantity of air available. 11. Now, as to this Taupiri Colliery, will you deal with the ventilation system generally, and state whether the air is pure and the quantity prescribed by the law is provided, also as to whether the air is properly conducted to the working-faces? —The measurements taken by myself extend over about twelve months, and will show that the currents taken during yesterday's examination by the Commissioners coincide with them generally. I produce a tabulated statement showing the readings taken by me since the sth September, 1.910. In the north dip of the Extended Mine there was 24,375 cubic feet, giving 234 ft. per man. [Exhibit 14 put in.] 12. As regards your measurements in the Extended Mine, what is the minimum quantity of air per man recorded in any portion of the mine? —19T2 cubic feet per man per minute. 13. Those measurements extend over what period? —Over a year. 14. What was the highest temperature recorded in the Extended Mine during that period?— 64° wet and 68° dry. 15. In Ralph's Mine what is the lowest quantity of air circulating in any place during the past year? —173 cubic feet; and the highest temperature was 63° wet and 71° dry. 16. Will you inform the Commission if you have found gas in either of the mines?—No, I have not. 17. Neither firedamp nor black damp?— No. 18. Not sufficient to indicate on the lights?— No. 19. How long have you been inspecting these mines? —About six years. 20. And during that time you have not observed gas?— Only once, in a borehole, when it put my light out, there was an indication of CH 4 . 21. As regards falls, have you any remarks to make as to the safety of these mines?— The mines are very safe indeed. 22. Have any men been killed in this mire? —Two men were working the Taupiri West heading about twelve months ago, when a piece of fireclay came down and killed one of them. 23. What was the verdict of the jury at the inquest?—" Accidental death; no blame attachable to any one." 24. Have there been any serious accidents? —No. 25. As regards the ladderways in shafts? —They are fairly safe. 26. Now, as to the risk of inundation, there has been litigation in the past?— Yes. 27. Did you take action against the company?— The late Inspector Coutts took action. I was Assistant Inspector at the time. The manager reported that there was a creep amongst the pillars. Mr. Coutts and I inspected the area, and after the examination and a conference with the workmen's inspector and the manager we came to the conclusion that there was no immediate danger and work might be resumed. Mr. Coutts requested the management to provide a second outlet on the western side of the river. The company did not carry out his directions, and that led to the litigation. 28. It eventually resulted in the Inspector taking action? —Yes. 29. The inquiry was held before a Jtidge and two assessors? —Yes. Judge Denniston and two assessors, and they decided that this mine was the safest mine in the wo'-ld. 30. Notwithstanding that the Waikato River overlaid the coal?— Yes. 31. The Government failed at law? —Yes. 32. The Chairman.'] How long ago was that?— About four years ago. 33! Mr. Feed.] What happened eventually?— The comnany purchased the Taupiri West property put in a drive connecting Ralph's and Taupiri West shafts. 34. Was that drive put in as a safety precaution ? —Yes. 35. What is your opinion as to the safety of the mine from inundation? —It is safer than it was then, for the reason that the debris from the tunnels in the rock has been deposited amongst the damaged pillars, and whereas they were 20 ft. high they now average only 10 ft. 36. Do you believe in the trial before a Judge or Magistrate and two assessors? —I prefer the Warden and two assessors. _ • 37. Your experience has tended to influence you in favour of the Warden alone as a tribunal? No. I prefer a Warden and two assessors. 38 Now, in view of the requirements of the Act, is this a Rafe mine generally?— Yes. 39 Can you tell us of any defects you have observed? —The high working of the bords is the only defect I know of, and the company considers that to take the bords lower would be a great waste. To bench it would be very much safer,

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40. Do the workmen's inspectors carry out their duties regularly here?— They make an inspection now and again. During the present year there have been three or four examinations made. 41. Are the minor accidents in the Taupiri Company's property very frequent?— Yes, there are a great many minor accidents, such as cuts and strains. One man broke his leg, and several miners have lost an eye as the result of flying coal. 42. But you are fairly well satisfied with the existing conditions here?— Yes. 43. When you draw the attention of the management to any defects, are they put right? — Yes; I have no trouble in that respect. 44. Mr. Cochrane.] In regard to the first part of your evidence with respect to the Northern Mine, what is the thickness of the pillars they are driving there? —They are about 14 ft. wide. 45. Then you said that the management could not link up the ventilation system so that the air could run through Steel's place?—l did not say it was impossible. 46. Coming to the Taupiri mines, you say there was a creep in Ralph's Mine? —The manager reported a creep. 47. What was the nature of it?— Mr. Coutts held the. opinion that it was not a creep, but merely a contraction of the coals and pillars through cold air being admitted after the area had become heated. 48. Was there any movement in the floor?— No. 49. So that it was not a creep proper?— No. 50. Are any of the present workings under the river in either mine?—l think there are some in the Extended. 51. Are there any workings under the lake? —I think not. 52. Are there any in either mine under quicksand? —I do not know. The company said it was the safest overlying strata in the world. If it had been unsafe they would not have said so. 53. Are the old bords kept in order? —Yes. 54. How often are they inspected?— Once a week, I think. 55. Mr. Fletcher.'] Can you tell us how much coal is left in the bords right across the river? —The practice is to leave not less than 7 ft. to 9 ft. of coal overhead. Pillars are not drawn there. 56. The Chairman.] Do you know the strata overhead? —Fireclay and a small seam of coal. 57. How do you know that? Have you seen bores? —I have seen a section of the strata exhibited in the Auckland Exhibition and in the company's offices. 58. Mr. Doivgray.] In connection with the Whangarei mines you said it was not possible to have" good ventilation in Steel's place?—Wei], you can imagine a pillar of coal 14 ft. wide, with bords on each side, the timber broken, and the roof coming down; then, to extract that pillar it is split, leaving a piece of coal 4 ft. on each side, and they work it back. If they were to take it wider they would leave but a small rib of coal. 59. Can you explain to us how that particular section where Steel's place is was ventilated? —Yes, by two shafts from the surface to those sections. 60. Did you hear Mr. Morgan give his evidence? —Yes. 61. Did you hear him state that these two shafts were upcast shafts? —That might be. 62. You remember reference being made to a door : was it not left open? —Yes. 63. Was that not the reason for its being left open—to ventilate the places in those two particular sections? —No. At times one of those two shafts may be drawing while the other is an intake, and it might happen if the door was open that they might both be uptakes, but not otherwise. 64. Mr. Morgan said they were both upcast shafts. The men complained that the door was left open, arid it was necessary for the proper ventilation of the mine for it to be shut. Yet I found it had been, left open?— Well, I say that it is not necessary to have it open. 65. Could those two sections be ventilated with the door remaining shut, and with the fan having no null on it? Was it possible for Nos. 5 and 6 sections to act in conjunction with one another ?—Yes. 66. Has one section a connection with the other? —Certainly. 67. Do you think it is a good way of ventilating , a mine to have a second cutaway like that, and a fan installed? —I have just explained to Mr. Reed that a creep took place in the pillars. Formerly the mine was ventilated by natural means. I disapproved of natural ventilation and insisted upon the company installing a fan, but through falls in those pillars they could not connect up the two systems. The mine was originally laid off for natural ventilation, but these falls have made it difficult to ventilate it well. 68. Do you think it is well ventilated now?— s Yes. 69. What about Nos. 5 and 6 sections? —I explained that perhaps on two or three days the ventilation might be bad, but at other times it would be perfectly good. I might say that at the request of the miners' union I visited and made an inspection of that place, and shortly after they backed down and said they had no complaint_to make. 70. Is a system satisfactory where the ventilation conditions vary so quickly? —No. 71. In connection with the new shaft at Whangarei, in that particular colliery do you consider it a safe outlet for the men ? —There is no danger from an inrush of water. Where is it to come from ? 72. But there is water all round it?— No. There was water in the old workings, but it has been lowered to a point where it is safe and impossible to flood. A borehole was put down and the water was lowered 20 ft. 73. Are they still tapping it as they go down? —They cannot go down. 74. The Chairman.'] From the lay of the workings you are satisfied there is no danger of flooding by water? —I am satisfied.

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75. Mr. Dowgray.] Did you request the company to improve the ventilation by installing a fan ?—Well, the point is this : at my previous visits the ventilation had been adequate, but there was a lesser number of men employed. As the other sections were worked out they put more men -into the mine and so made the quantity of air insufficient. On my previous visit there was adequate ventilation, and so I could not insist upon any improvement. 76. What is your opinion as to adequate ventilation?—ln a mine where there are no gases 150 cubic feet of air per man per minute is sufficient. 77. Where—at the face?— Certainly. 78. Of course, you know that there was not that amount entering the mine?--I am not aware of that. The returns will show different. 79. The returns show MO cubic feet per man per minute. Coming back to the mines here at Huntly, do you think the men in the Little dip section of the Ralph Mine would have any hope of getting out in the event of water coming in? I want your opinion on that point. There is no suggestion that it might happen? —Yes, they could get out by passing through No. 6 main dip level, the crosscut, and into the Taupiri West, where we were yesterday. 80. The Chairman.] From where they are working could they get sufficient warning of the break to enable them to make their escape before the water would catch them?— The position is like a triangle, with the main haulage-road as the hypotenuse, the Little dip is the perpendicular, and the escape along No. 6 is the base. If a very serious fall took place the mine would be flooded instantly, but we do not anticipate that. 81. Could a telephone be installed both ways? —Yes, a telephone could be put down the Little dip to the plat. In the main haulage-way there is one already to No. 6 level, which we visited yesterday. 82. I take it that it is part of your duties to look after the general safety of the mine? —Yes, as defined by the Coal-mines Act. 83. You stated to Mr. Reed that a man had his leg broken : was that not through a fall of coal? —I understand he was working down a piece of coal after a shot, when a piece came away and broke his leg. 84. In connection with the method of conveying the air by brattice, do you not think it would be an improvement if the brattice were made the return? —That is a matter of opinion. Some miners think not. As far as the inspection of mines is concerned, as long as adequate ventilation is provided the Inspector has no say in the matter. 85. The As a matter of a recommendation, apart from the question of your interference as Inspector, would you consider that it would be better if the narrow airway were the return and the wide way the intake? —The circumstances sometimes decide which will be preferable. For instance, where the air comes through the split in the pillar the stenton is not right opposite, but is probably 30 ft. up, and in that case if you made the canvas side the intake there would be twice the length of canvas required to take the air to the face as compared with what would be required to return it, consequently there would be more leakage. 86. Mr. Dowgray. .] I fail to see how it would make any difference? —It depends upon your system of working the mine. 87. It seems that the method in this particular mine is to use the brattice as the intake all over the mine?— Well, supposing it were the return the air would go up the bord and round the point of the canvas, but if the other method were adopted it would be thrown up under pressure. Would you be surprised to learn that there was 900 ft. passing through the canvas where the men were working? 88. Have any reports on these mines stated that there was gas present?— Yes. 89. Have any places in either of the mines been ventilated by compressed air? —Yes. Occasionally in development-works they carry 10 in. air-pipes into the face, and these are assisted by a jet of compressed air. 90. Is the compressed air used in the working-places?—l made an extract from the manager's report-book at the Extended Mine, which shows that the total return is 58,669 cubic feet, which means that 18,400 ft. ventilates the old workings. I did not observe to-day any placeswhich were ventilated by compressed air, but on a previous inspection there was a section so ventilated, but it was only a temporary arrangement. 91. Mr. 'Parry.'] In connection with Steel's place at Hikurangi, do you think that was a fit place to work eight hours in, in view of the fact that it was impossible to ventilate it? —Well, when the miners' union was registered under the Arbitration Act, had they appealed to me on the point I would have made a careful examination to see if there wereany impurities in the air. 92. Under the circumstances in which we found it, do you consider it was a fit place for a man to work eight hours in? —Yes. 93. Did you see the candle burning?—No, we had a large torch, and it would take a large percentage of CO 2 to show on that. ... 94. The Chairman.] Did you notice during that inspection any indication of noxious gases? No. 95 Mr Parry.] How would you deal with that place to make it a six-hour place? Where would you get your power?—l said, "if they applied to me." I was Inspector of Awards, but I have "no power under the Coal-mines' Act because they cancelled their registration. My powers of arbitration are under the award. 96 The Chairman.] Have you any opinion to offer as to whether it would be possible to give you such powers under the Coal-mines Act as would enable you to fix six-hour places?—lt would be somewhat difficult for me to undertake the work, because my district includes two provinces, and the seam of coal being thin, the conditions change so rapidly that by the time I got there, unless the place were stopped, I would not be able to judge as to what were the conditions at the time of the complaint. I have been called in to decide sometimes when the pillar had been taken out, and it was impossible for me to do anything.

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97. Mr. Parry.] Then, under those circumstances, is the suggestion not a good one to have a standard of temperature fixed by the Government?— No. The miners' union and the manager have always consulted one another, and in 70 per cent, of the cases they have decided between themselves. 98. In the event of their not being able to settle the matter between themselves? —I do not know what the}' would do then. 99. What would you suggest, then, in the event of their not being able to arrive at a settlement? Would you not be in favour of something being fixed by the Government ?—As I stated at the Thames, it would be a difficult matter to fix a rule to decide these things, the conditions change so rapidly. In the morning it might be an eight-hour place according to the conditions fixed, and in the afternoon a six-hour place. 100. How are you going to provide for those men who are working, then ? —They must exercise a little reasonableness between the management and themselves. 101. And in the event of their not being reasonable? —I have no opinion to offer. 102. And you cannot suggest anything to get over the difficulty? —No. 103. Would you suggest that power be given to you under the Coal-mines Act or Mining Act so that if you considered a place to be dangerous you could stop work there, and that your decision be final in the matter?—l think there is that power in the Coal-mines Act now for dealing with dangerous places. 104. In any of the Huntly mines have you found during any of your inspections the quantity of air supplied to be insufficient? —Not in either of the mines. 105. Have you found the current of air insufficient in any of the working-places?— No. My last inspection with the workmen's inspector was made on the 7th July, 1911. 106. On any occasion have you found the current of air insufficient?—l have not measured it in every place, but where I have done so it has been quite sufficient. 107. The Chairman.] Have you any reason to believe that it was not so in any places where you did not measure it?— No. 108. Your attention was never drawn to any doubtful place?— No. 109. Mr. Parry .] That being so, it was never necessary for you to speak to the management on the subject?— No. 110. Has your attention been drawn by the workmen's inspector to an insufficiency of air in any places?—ln one of his reports (12th April, 1911), it is stated that he found only 88 cubic feet of air per minute per man in the north section of the Extended Mine. 111. The Chairman.] When was your next inspection made —12th May?— Yes, on that date, in consequence of the workmen's inspector's report, I visited the same section accompanied by the manager, and will give you the figures : No. 6, west dip, three men working, velocity 1,200 revolutions, giving 1,272 cubic feet per minute, equal to 424 ft. per man. 112. Mr. Parry.] But what were the conditions when the complaint was made? Have you those figures?—-No. The check inspector's report does not supply that information 113. There was a month between the inspections? —Yes. 114. Were there not compressed-air jots introduced after the check inspector's visit and before your inspection?—l have no knowledge of that. 115. How was it ventilated when you were there?—l did not visit the whole of the mine. When I visit the mine I take a section at a time. 116. How was it ventilated on the date of your inspection? —By 14 in. air-pipes with compressed air. 117. You do not know when they were installed ? —No. 118. Do you consider this new system of ventilation adequate? —Yes; I have not visited any place which was not adequately ventilated. 119. Do you consider that the man on top gets sufficient ventilation? —Yes. 120. Or would you suggest anything to improve the ventilation for him?—No, I cannot suggest anything. I could if it were necessary, but it has not been necessary. 121. Have you any complaints from the men working there?— No. 122. Does the workmen's inspector give you any assistance so far as inspections are concerned? —No. 123. Do you -think the travelling-way going into Ralph's Mine is in a fit state as regard* the dust there? —There are small sections of it where there is a little dust, but there are also great stretches where there is none. 124. Would you suggest any alteration being made to keep that dust down? —I believe they need it. Is there any particular section to which" you refer ? 125. In different places along the road. Have you had any complaints as to the dust in the travelling-way? —Not in Ralph's Mine. In the check inspector's report of the 11th July a complaint was made, and I saw the manager, who said that if he put water down it would make the place wet and the miners would complain. I have not been in that section since then. 126. Could you suggest anything to minimize the eye accidents which occur when the men are cutting coal?—I have seen goggles and pieces of gauze used to protect the eyes. 127. Is there anything in the way of a difference of system which would minimize that trouble? —What system would do it? 128. lam asking you. Can you suggest any different system of working which would minimize these eye accidents? —If the miners shot their coal out without cutting it they would have to trim both sides and roof, and the danger would then be present just as it is now. 129. The Chairman.] Do you think they can escape trimming by cutting out? —No. 130. Mr. Parry .] But the danger would not be as great to the eyes'?—l am not sure there would be much difference. The shooting would damage the pillare. 131. Was your attention drawn to the signals at Ralph's Mine shaft? —Yes,

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132. Did you see that that was put in order? —The manager has arranged to put in an electric signal from the brace into the engine-room. 133. How long is it since your attention was drawn to that?— About two months ago. 134. Is it in now? —I cannot say. 135. Mr. Dowgray.] You made reference, in connection with Steel's place, that the miners' union had cancelled their registration and you had no power to act as arbitrator : does the Arbitration Act give you power to act as arbitrator, or is it only the agreement which gives you that power?— They had an award with the company. 136. Mr. Reed.] Will you explain the matter in connection with the signal? —The necessity for the signal was brought under my notice, and on reading Special Rule 87 I believed that I had power to ask the manager to provide the signal. Afterwards, on more carefully reading the rule, I came to the conclusion that I had no such power. If you will look at the section you will find that it reads, " When persons are about to descend the banksman shall signal three times, which the onsetter shall answer by signalling once." 137. The Chairman.] Why should the onsettcr signal an answer?—lt is a rule that when any person is about to ascend or descend the opposite cage must be clear of any trucks. The object of the answering signal is for the onsetter to leave that cage clear, and he must signal once before the engine-driver can move that cage. 138. If the banksman signals the onsettev, does not the onsetter signal to the engine-driver? --Yes. 139. So that the lowering signal comes from the banksman to the onsetter, and from the onsetter to the engine-driver?—lt is from the braceman on the top to the onsetter in the chamber at the bottom of the shaft that persons are about to descend, and he signals through so that the cage may be clear, and then the onsetter signals " All right." 140. To whom does he signal? —To the engine-driver. 141. Mr. Reed.] Now, will you explain this little misunderstanding : in conversation with the manager and after consulting the Act you found that your first letter to the union was not correct —that you were not able to compel the company to put the signal in? —Yes, I talked the matter over with the manager, and after referring to the Act I found I was in error. Then, the same evening I had other business with the miners' union committee 142. W T ho was present? —Mr. Duncan, Mr. Fulton, and, I think, the treasurer. We talked the matter over and I pointed out that under the rule I had no power, but that the manager had agreed to put in an electric bell. 143. Did you tell the union officials what had previously transpired at your conference with the manager ?—Yes, 144. Can you fix the time and place?—No, but it was the evening of the day I arrived here, and I had the conversation with the union officials in the union's office. 145. The Chairman.] At what hour? —I went along in the evening, and they asked me to come in. 146. Was it on the 6th? Apparently you made an inspection on the 7th, and the letter is dated the 13th? —In all probability it was on the 6th of the month following the date of my letter, the evening before the inspection. John Edward Duncan sworn and examined. (No. 13.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —A miner, and check inspector for the union. 2. How long have you been mining?— About twelve years. 3. How long have you been check inspector?— Nine months. 4. Which mine do you work in?— Ralph's. 5. Are you workmen's inspector for both mines? —Yes, with another. 6. Now, will you tell us as briefly as possible what it is you wish to lay before the Commission? —Well, first of all we consider that the report of the examination of the mine should be placed at the mine-mouth prior to the men going below, for the reason that the men may be lowered down into danger. Some time ago we wrote to the Inspector of Mines asking that there be installed a signal from the braceman to the engine-driver. I received a reply that he would see the manager and ask that the signal be put in, but it has not been done yet. It is necessary to have a signal, because the steam gets in the line of vision. We consider that the contract system and the tonnage system should be abolished, because under them, the men rush their work and do not look to their safety as much as they would if they were employed on day wages. 7. Is that the fault of the price or the system?—lt is the fault of the competitive system. The men undercut the prices to get the work. Then there is the matter of the travelling-way on the north side of the Extended Mine. The men travelling to the north side have to cross the main way. and there is danger in doing so. I believe that one of the men narrowly missed meeting with an accident on this particular crossing, and we consider that an overcast should be put over to avoid the risk. Then, again, the Inspector of Mines, when he examines the mine, should report to the union, because the members of the union consider that their lives are at stake. As matters are at present we have no means of knowing what condition the Inspector considers the mine is in. Under an agreement under the award by which we are working we cut and hole out coal to a depth of 3 ft., but in most instances it is cut to that depth, and the danger of accident is very great because the miner is working in a congested area. During the last year we have had twenty-five accidents which have put the men on the funds, and six very serious ones during the last two years. Four men have lost the sight of their eyes in these mines. 8. How'would this holing, and cutting, and trimming the sides and roof be affected if you blasted the coal out?— You would not be working in a small place with your head in a cut. You would have some freedom, and more chance of averting an accident.

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9. How is your light got? —You have it on your head. We also consider that the check inspectors should have increased powers. Their powers are very much curtailed at present. They should have the power to take action against the company if it is found that the requirements of the Act are not complied with. We consider that each district in a mine where there are not more than four districts should have a fresh-air split. In Ralph's Mine the Little dip section is ventilated from No. 7 north, consequently the air is very vitiated when it comes through the Little dip, having been breathed before reaching the men there. I consider that the quantity fixed per man per minute should be increased. 10. To what extent? —Well, more than it is at present. 1 have gone down the Extended Mine and found that a number of the men employed in some of the working-places did not have a sufficiency .of air, and yet there was 150 ft. per man per minute. 11. How did you know that it was insufficient? —By measuring. 12. Have you any instances where the air was insufficient? —Yes, the north-west dip. 13. That has been remedied? —When I was down there was no compressed air taken in by the pipes. There was 87 ft. of air supplying two men. Subsequent to my visit, and prior to the visit of the Inspector of Mines, there was a compressed-air jet installed in both these places. We consider that the air should sweep the face. Perhaps at the end of the brattice there is a noticeable current of air, but sometimes the brattice is 16 ft. back from the face, and consequently it is very stagnant at the face. Then the bench-bords should be bratticed so that the intake air should reach the top of the bench. At present the air only strikes the back of the bench, and the miner working on top gets only the warmest of the air. If a screen were put up the air would sweep the top of the bench. If the benches were driven about 12 yards apart there would be less bratticing required, and, though the bratticing tends to reduce the current of air because it is congested in these narrow inlets, there is quite a lot of escape. Then we would urge the necessity for change-houses and baths for the use of the miners. 14. Have you none here? —No. Then there is the dust on the travelling-ways, which should be sprayed. They have watered travelling-ways where I have recommended, with the exception of the one between the shaft and the junction of the No. 6 and the Little dip. 15. What is the distance of the dusty way?— About 30, or 40, or 50 yards. 16. You represent the union? —Yes. 17. What is your membership?—At the end of 1910 there were 475 members on the books. 18. Have these matters which you are referring to been discussed by your union? —No, but by a committee set up by the executive. 19. And were they unanimous in regard to these matters, or was there any dissent from them?— The committee decided to place them before the Commission. 20. I want to know generally how many miners you are speaking for ? —The union appointed us to make these representations. 21. Mr. Dowgray.] In connection with that signal from the braceman to the engine-driver, has there been any accident caused through the lack of a signal? —No, there has not been any serious accident, but I believe on one occasion at the Extended Mine the braceman pulled out the clips when men were being lowered, and he thought after he had pulled them out that the engineman was not at his post. Then he pushed the clips back again and they caught the top of the cage, with the result that the men got a severe shock. 22. The Chairman.] Are these signals additional signals?—l will quote from a letter dated the 30th June, 1911, from the Inspector of Mines, on the subject : " Yours cf the 14th instant to hand. The duties of banksman and onsetter are clearly denned in Special Rules 83, 84, 87 of the Coal-mines Act, 1908. Direct signalling to the engine-driver by the onsetter in all things concerning the cages in the pit-bottom is most desirable, and no other means can be allowed. The banksman should have a signal-wire from the bracehead into the engine-room with bell attached, so that he can signal as required by Rule 87, line 11. T shall request the manager to provide such means of signalling, if it is not already provided. , ' 23. Mr. Dowgray.] Is it not a fact that a full box went down the shaft? —Well, the other men who will be giving evidence will be able to speak more decidedly on that point. 24. Has the signal referred to in that letter been installed now? —No. 25. Mr. Parry.] Have you had any experience of taking temperatures?— No. 26. You have taken no temperatures with the dry bulb? —No. 27. Have you worked in any places where the temperature was taken? —Yes, in the Kaitangata Mine. 28. What do you think of a standard temperature : is it necessary to be fixed by the Government?— Well, I consider that 80° is very much "too hot. I would not be in favour of fixing a standard higher than 75° or 70°. I have had experience of a temperature of 80° in the Kaitangata Mine. 29. What was the current of air like there? —It was not a very good one. 30. That would be a dry temperature, would it not? —Yes. 31. Where do you get your drinking-water in those mines? —We carry it into them; the men take it in themselves. 32. Have they to go back to the surface in the daytime if they want more drinking-water? —No, they do without if they do not carry enough. 33. What is your opinion of the necessity for sanitary appliances?—l consider that the sanitary appliances here have been very unsatisfactory, but just recently there have been wonderful improvements effected in them,'and I believe they are now going to provide disinfectants in the mine. The matter was arranged just before the Commission came here. Previously the smell was nauseating in the extreme. Then there was a complaint about the pan in the Extended Mine being close to the return airway near where the truckers were trucking. I mentioned the matter to the management, and it was removed.

•J. E. DUNCAN.

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34. How often are the pans emptied?—l do not know. 35. During your inspections, have you had reason to make many complaints J —No, 1 have made complaints only through my reports. I have only made two or three check inspections. 36. To whom have you made the complaints?— The reports are sent to the managers of the mines. 37. Is there a copy sent to the Inspector ? —No, but he sees them when he visits the mines. 38. The Chairman.] You asked for Inspector's reports to be sent to you : would you be in favour of sending the Inspector a copy of your report I —Yes, I am in favour of that. 39. Have you drawn the attention of the owners to any matters apart from the place you referred to? —Yes, there was one place in the dip on the west side where it was impossible to get a reading with the anemometer. There was no noticeable current of air at all. The officials of the company admitted that the air was inadequate. 40. Did they do anything to remedy it?— Yes, I believe it was subsequently remedied by making a connection between the district and the intake or return. 41. Have you made any serious complaint in regard to bad air or insufficient air which has not been attended to within a reasonable time by the management, either by holing through or some mechanical system of ventilation?— Well, we made a check inspection of this particular dip and reported the matter, and on returning sixteen days afterwards we found that there was no improvement —in fact, the quantity of air had diminished. 42. And when was the improvement made? —It was made subsequent to our visit and prior to that of the Inspector of Mines. 43. What is the date of your first report?—l do not know the date. 44. In reference to the complaints regarding a place in the Extended Mine where three men were working, did you inform the Inspector ?—Yes, he spoke to me on the matter when I was at work in Ralph's Mine. He asked me how many feet of air I got. I told him I got 80 ft., and he said he had got some hundreds. 45. Mr. Parry.'] Have there been improvements made in the ventilation during the last four months? —Yes, I consider there have. 46. The Chairman.] In regard to the ventilation of such places as dead-ends, have you any general suggestions to make which would adequately meet these contingencies? It is apparently inevitable that defective ventilation must be found in such places during the development of a mine?—l consider that the quantity of air should be increased, that it should be conducted to these places, and that they should be ventilated first. There was quite a sufficient quantity of air not far from this particular place. 47. Mr. Parry.] Would you suggest that the workmen's inspector should have additional powers, in order that the standard of ventilation might be kept up?— Yes. 48. In the event of an accident taking place in the mine, are there any first-aid appliances or bandages provided there? —I believe not. I think first-aid appliances are on top, and in case of a man being injured below there is great danger of his being more seriously affected in being raised to the surface, as I understand they have no stretchers. 49. The Chairman.] You think that first-aid appliances should be kept near to the workingplaces? —Yes. 50. Mr. Parry.] In regard to the matter of the assistant engine-driver, do you think if an extra man were appointed it would have a tendency to make matters safer when men are being lowered and pulled ?—Yes, particularly in the event of the driver having a seizure or fit. 51. The Chairman.] What is the depth of your shaft?—2Bo ft. 52. Mr. Pqrry.] Do you think there is a serious risk run bj T the men with only one man at the engine?— Yes, -a man may have a fainting fit at any time. 53. In regard to eye accidents underground, what have you to suggest with a view to minimizing them?—l am not in favour of gauzes being used. I have worked with them, and found that after a man has worn a gauze for a day he gets blinded. I consider that eye accidents are the result of the cutting of the coal, arid that should be done away with. At present we are supposed to cut the coal, but some men do not do so —some are allowed more latitude than others. 54.. Mr. Cochrane.] With regard to the proposal that check inspectors should have greater powers to prosecute, would that not lead to divided authority in connection with the Inspector of Mines? —Not if the case was heard before a Magistrate. 55. The Chairman.] Would you also be in favour of the workmen's inspector being mulcted in costs if he failed? —No, I think there are too many costs against him to-day. 56. Where power is given to prosecute, as a correlative to that power there is also the power to allow costs. If a man knows that he is running no risk he may run into law more freely than he would if he were liable for costs in case of failure. If you ask for the power to prosecute you must be prepared to undertake to pay costs if you fail? —I consider that before they brought an action th&y would use their discretion in the matter. 57. Mr. Cochrane.] Then, do you not think it would lead to divided authority as between the Inspector of Mines and the check inspector?—lt may. 58. Then, as to the quantity of air per man per minute, 1 understood you to say that you consider that should be increased, although you also said there is quite sufficient at times in the intake and return. You say that sometimes the men do not get enough. Is it not better distribution you want?— There may be the stipulated amount in the return and intake, but, as is the case in the Extended Mine, in some particular districts the required quantity is not circulated so as to reach the men. 59. Would not better distribution meet such a case?—lt would materially help. 60. Ihen, as to the bench-bords and the improvement of the ventilation at the face, what is your proposal? —That brattice be inclined up the side of the bord, so that the air should sweep the bord.

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[j. E. DUNCAN.

61. Do you think that a feasible method? —Yes. Perhaps other means could be devised, but I consider fhat the heat on the benches to-day is too great, and when a man is up there he breathes the very worst air in the bord. 62. Mr. Beed."] In regard to those signals from the engine-house, are there not already signals provided for communicating with the onsetter? —Yes. 63. Will you show us in the Act where it is compulsory to put in these signals you speak of J— I am only going by what Mr. Bennie says. 64. If those signals were installed might they not lead to accidents by conflicting with others? Do you propose to have two lots of signals ?—I consider that it would be possible to put in a signal with a different sound. 65. Are you aware that Mr. Bennie afterwards explained to the miners' union committee that he had no power to enforce the installation of this signal—l mean, subsequent to the writing of that letter?—No, Mr. Bennie did not say that at any time. 66. The Chairman.] Since you received that letter from Mr. Bennie have you had any discussion with him or has he discussed the matter with any of the officials of the union ?—I do not think the matter has been discussed by them. 67. Was it discussed by the manager and Mr. Bennie when you were present, or did Mr. Bennie discuss it with the committee and state that he had no power?—l do not think Mr. Bennie has come into the union office since I received that letter. 68. Have you any recollection of such an interview? —I do not wish to deny, but I have no recollection of it. Jonathan Valentine sworn and examined. (No. 14.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —A miner. 2. With how many years' experience?— Thirty-three. 3. Which mine are you working in? —The Extended. 4. Will you give us in your own words what it is you wish to lay before the Commission?—l think, in the first place, for the safety of the men, the fireman's report should be posted up at the surface, and I also consider that the installation of a signal from the braceman to the driver is necessary in the Extended Mine. I have known times when you could not distinguish the driver in the engine-room at the Extended Mine on account of the steam : that is, when the wind blows from a certain direction. Therefore I think there should be communication between the braceman and the engine-driver. Then, the travelling-way in one place down the north side in the Extended Mine is in very bad order. It is where we cross the haulage-road there, and only a few weeks ago I nearly met with an accident by knocking my head against the timber when the skips were coming. I think it could be altered by putting a place for us to walk over. The next thing I wish to mention is that the miners should have a certain amount of discretion as to the method of working and getting the coal. We have men who dictate to us as to where we are to put our spragging, and I am sure we would meet with accidents if we followed instructions in all cases. 5. We cannot interfere with the management of the mine unless it is shown that the orders given tend to cause accident? —Well, then, this man might ask me to do a thing in a certain way, and I wish to know if I am to follow his instructions if it is not safe. 6. That is outside the scope of our Commission. We cannot dictate as to what overseers shall do. What instructions do you have to follow which you consider are dangerous?—As to putting up my sprags. If I know that I would be killed by holing in a certain way as I am instructed, must I follow those instructions ? 7. From whom do you get those orders?— From the fireman. 8. Do you suggest that the firemen have not sufficient experience? Do they not pass some examination? —They have certificates, but no experience. They are men who have never got coal. The test should be as to whether a man has had experience in working coal. 9. You may make a recommendation to the Commission that the examination for firemen's certificates should include that ?—Yes. I would like to do that, then. 10. Have you had any accidents through obeying these orders? —Only small ones. But I would probably have had more serious ones if I had not argued the point with them and made them give in in certain cases. I think they get their certificates they should be required to prove they have had five years' experience in getting coal. There is another matter which I wish to bring before you, and that is that the tools should be brought to the face where the men work in skips. At the present time we have to carry perhaps half a dozen picks, powder, tea-cans, and a set of drills, and these should be brought in skips. Another thing which badly wants remedying is the cutting of the coal. We have heard here that "the men are liable to lose their eyes in trimming the coal. I maintain not. They trim two different ways, and are not then liable to the same accidents. I have not lost an eye, but I think the majority of eye accidents result from the cutting. Then, I think the bratticing and the bench-bords could be improved a great deal. I have worked in places here where the brattice has been 15, 16, and 17 yards from the face, and in places like that a man does not get the benefit of it. 11. How close to the face should it be taken?— Close enough to satisfy the miner. A man gets more benefit when the brattice is the intake than if it were the uptake. As regards the bratticing and bench-bords, when a man is on the bench it is about 6 ft. high, and he is from 12 ft. to 14 ft. up. I think that the brattice should be carried so as to take effect on the bench. 12. What about the shooting?—lt would not affect it any more than it does now. 13. Mr. Parry.] In regard to the matter of carrying your tools and water, is it not a fact that when you are so loaded with this lumber you are not in a position to see if the 3rive and the roof are safe as required by the Act? —No, most decidedly not. 14. The Chairman.] Would there be any great hardship about having a separate skip for running these things ?•—No, it is done elsewhere. 15. Mr. Bowgray.] A duplicate set of picks will be necessary?—No, it could be done without a duplicate set of picks.

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Herbert Couch sworn and examined. (No. 15.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you?—A miner, and a check inspector for the union. 2. How many years' mining experience have you had 2 —Ten. 3. What is it you wish to lay before the Commission? —I wish to corroborate what the previous witnesses have said, with a few exceptions. I would like you to take into consideration the benching of high bords. The bratticing should be conveyed by means of a hurdle which would run the brattice across and give a good supply of air. At the present time the men on the bottom get what little air there is coming in on the bench-bords, while the men on the top do not get enough. I consider that in the working of this mine there should be a standard distance between drives, which would tend to make the supply of air adequate. 4. What distance should they be apart?— Ten yards. 5. What is the distance now?—lt is nearly 20 yards. I would like to take exception to the dust in the travelling-ways. When the Commission was visiting the mine the manager requested us to stay back because the dust was not good for the Commissioners. There is another thing which I have noticed on my inspections, and which requires attention. It has reference to the truckers. In some cases the pulley-wheel is set on the chock-pin on the floor. The practice is to follow the empty truck up to the chock and cross over, and follow the full skip down. 6. What is the danger?— Under the Mining Act they are not allowed to do it. 7. Then that is already provided for? —I would suggest that it should be enforced. Then there is the matter of fingerposts. In travelling to the upcast shaft you have to go through the old workings, and there are absolutely no fingerposts to show strangers where they are going. In regard to the conveyance of tools into the working-faces, I consider there is great risk of danger to the men when carrying their tools in the travelling-ways. When a man is carrying his pick on his shoulder in a low place the points of the pick touch the roof, with the result that the picks are sometimes thrown backwards, and in falling are apt to injure a man. Our tools should be conveyed near to the working-faces. In regard to the signal to the braceman from the enginedriver, I think that also is necessary. A short time ago five men got into a cage, and when they found there were five in it one was about to get out when the cage went down with the whole five. It is about time something was done in the direction of providing signals from the bracemen to the engine-room for the lowering and hauling of men. 8. How is the signal given now? Who gives the signal to lower? —There is no signal to lower. There is a signal from the banksman to the man below, and then there is a signal given to pull up. The braceman might wave his hand as a signal for the engine-driver, but if there is a fog the engine-driver could not see it. 9. The Chairman.] There are no means of signalling to the engine-driver except from below? —That is so. 10. Mr. Fletcher .] In the gold-mines they signal instead of waving their hands ? —Yes, they pull a bell. In Waihi they have signals from the brace to the engine. 11. Have you ever worked in a colliery where there was a signal from the banksman to the engine-driver? —No. I have never worked in a colliery where there were men lowered or hauled in a shaft. Charles Frederick Watson sworn and examined. (No. 16.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —A miner. 2. Do you hold any other office in the mine? —No. 3. How many years' mining experience have you had? —Fifteen. 4. Just give us in your own words what it is you wish to say before the Commission?—l desire only to corroborate the statements of previous witnesses, with a few exceptions. 5. Let us hear the exceptions? —I recommend the abolition of the contract and tonnage system, as there is too much hurry and scurry under them, whereas if we had only the day-wages system that would be done away with. The miners should be given more discretion in getting coal. The man at the face has the best idea of the condition of that place. If the places were driven on shift wages it would tend to minimize accidents. 6. Do they blow out the coal in places? —Yes, very frequently. 7. Is the coal better when blown out or after cutting?—l think the cutting would give the biggest coal. The trouble is the question of big dividends against life. I think the crosscuts should be driven every 12 yards in bords and headings. There is nothing in the mine in the way of ambulance stretchers. The appliances are kept in the engine-room, and a man could die before they were got down to him. Robert Grtjndy sworn and examined. (No. 17.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —A miner. 2. How many years' mining experience have you had? —Over thirty. 3. Let us hear what it is you have to bring before the Commission? —I have nothing fresh, and need only corroborate what the previous witnesses have said, except that I wish to emphasize the necessity for better ventilation. The safety of the mines could be improved with a greater number of splits, so that each district could have its own split. 4. You do not believe in the system of the air travelling round the other working-places? N o , J i, aV e noticed for a long time that the accidents are more serious and also more numerous under the contract system than they are under the day-wage system, and I think that provision should be embodied in the Coal-mines Act abolishing the contract system. I think the employers would get better service, and, taking everything into consideration, it would be far better for all concerned. Apart from these matters I only wish to corroborate what the other witnesses have said,

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B. GRUNDY.

5. Is there anything you do not wish to corroborate? —Well, as to the cutting of the coal: while I think that some discretion should be given to the miners, I would not be in favour of their having full discretionary powers. I wish to corroborate very strongly what Dr. Valentine has said about the danger in trimming the coal. Further, I detest the wearing of goggles. 6. Mr. Fletcher.] Do you not think that cutting is an advantage in this seam?— Well, in some cases it would be more preferable to cut than to hole, but in other circumstances the reverse would be the case. In some places the coal is very bad to cut. 7. Does not the cutting protect the pillar?— Not if it is shot properly. 8. Can you have a nice clear rib without cutting? —Yes, if you show a wise discretion. 9. The Chairman.'] Is there not a greater danger of shattering? —Of course, it wants trimming afterwards. 10. Mr. Fletcher.] How near the rib would you place a shot if you did not cut?—l have seen bords which should be cut in the centre. There are others where the shot could be 3 ft. from the side and not injure the side. 11. Would not that trimming be liable to cause eye accidents, by trimming the coal back from the centre cutting? —We cut the centre with the powder. 12. But the mine-owners want as much large coal as possible?— Yes, exactly. 13. If they cannot get large coal to suit their customers the mine would be idle, and what would become of the men and their families then? —In most cases the company gets as large coal as they could with cutting. 14. Mr. Dowgray .] The company does not compel you to cut the coal on the side? —Yes. 15. Have you no discretionary power in the matter?— You can get permission from the deputy, and I would like to say that I do not find the officials hard in that respect. 16. So that it does not follow that you cut on the side to protect the pillar—it is for getting round coal?-—I am not admitting that it is to protect the side of the pillar. Sometimes there are special circumstances, and they will allow you to do it on condition that you do not go too near the side. 17. Have you anything to say in connection with change-houses and bath-houses? —I think they would be a great boon to the miners. 18. You think the coal-miners would use the baths if they were provided? —Most of them would. Jambs Fulton sworn and examined. (No. 18.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a miner? —Yes. 2. With how many years' experience?— About twenty-seven. 3. Let us hear in your own words what it is you wish to place before the Commission? —Well, I can only corroborate the evidence of my colleagues. In regard to the matter of the deputy's report, I say that it would be safer for all concerned if the report were posted up before the miners enter the mine. Under the present system we are running a risk, but if that were done there would be no risk. I think it is a proper matter to be brought before the Commission. With regard to the signal to the braceman, I myself have noticed the necessity for this. We have discussed the matter in committee, and sent word to the Inspector of Mines requesting him to attend to it. I think it ought to be put in the Act. I have never worked in a colliery where there was not a distinct signal from the braceman to the engine-driver. I say without hesitation that there is more danger of accident under our system than there would be if there were a bell installed communicating directly with the braceman. It is not necessary to have even a bell —a hammer would do, or a buffer of a truck. To minimize accidents piecework or contract should be done away with, for there is no getting away from the fact that that system is the cause of so many men coming to grief either by serious or fatal accidents. They are the result of the rush in the work. In order to gain a livelihood the men seem to be prepared to risk working under any sort of conditions, and they naturally come to grief through it. Let us have an average or minimum rate of wages, and we will not have the present bustle and confusion which are the main cause of the accidents. In saying this lam voicing the opinion of the whole of my union. In regard to the wearing of goggles, 1 may say that that has been tried on two occasions and we have objected to it, and if it comes up again we will not tolerate it, because there are dangers from using goggles. We would rather lose our eyes in getting the coal. We want to do awa}' with cutting and holing as much as possible to minimize the accidents. If we had to wear glasses the possibility of accident to our eyes would be greater, because the coal would break the glass. 1 also agree with previous speakers that we ought to have bath-houses, and I believe the majority of the men would use them, particularly when coming off the night shift on cold winter nights, if the men could get a hot bath. I also think it is necessary that, instead of our ambulance stretchers and bandages being on the surface, we should have them in the mine ready for emergencies. Further, there should be every facility provided to get injured men to the surface. In regard to the carrying of tools, I think they should be conveyed into the mine. On one occasion a man fell down when walking on the slippery bottom, with the result that the point of the pick ran into him. It might have been serious, and there is always the possibility of an accident occurring. As regards our check inspectors, I say that they should be subsidized or paid half wages, and brought into line with the Government Inspectors. 4. Would you have them pass an examination? —Yes, if the body of miners thought it wise. An examination could be made to the satisfaction of the majority of the miners. Another point I would like to make is that the Government Inspector writes his reports, sends it to the company, and the union does not see them. The Inspector sees the check inspector's reports, but the check inspector has no way of seeing the Government Inspector's report. That is hardly fair. We should have the right to see them.

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J. PULTON.].,

5. Mr. Reed] The Inspector makes no report to the manager?— Then, as regards the aircirculation in Ralph's Mine, it is very good, but could be improved if there were one or two more splits. I might also say that since I have been in that colliery I have not been able to find an overcast or an undercast. Of course, we were told that when the working-area became bigger they would be put in. There is another point I wish to refer to which has been dealt with to a certain extent by previous witnesses—namely, in regard to the truckers following skips on jigs. What is the penalty attached to it, and can we enforce the law? 6. You consider that it should be made quite clear in the interests of human life?— Yes, the penalties are on miners and all parties who violate the law. As regards discretionary powers being given to the miner, I am in favour of that. Ido not agree that a man will take so much harm in trimming loose coal as he does in cutting a vast body of coal. I have been working on planks when cutting coal, and have had to turn my face away from it. Ido not think that the Act says we shall hole out coal before men begin to hole, and there is the overruling factor that we must obey the management. Ido not say that that is done in all cases, but at the same time I think we should have more discretionary powers than we have at the present time. I contend that a man who is working a face of coal knows more about it than the deputy, or the manager, or any one else. As to the quantity of air, in my opinion if there were 1,000 ft. of air it would not be enough if the smoke hangs about all day, as it does in some cases. 7. Mr. Dowgray] You are president of the union? —That is so. 8. You heard the question put by Mr. Reed in connection with Mr. Bennies letter as to the installation of a new signal: do you know anything about that ?—I know the secretary wrote to Mr. Bennie and received an answer, but I do nof know of any. private conversation which any official of the union had with Mr. Bennie subsequently on the matter. 9. You do not know that Mr. Bennie cancelled that letter?—No, nor do I know of any conversation or discussion which took place between the Inspector and any official of the union. I certainly was not present at such a discussion. 10.' Does your committee meet without you and the secretary being present?— No. 11. Mr. Parry] Under the present system do you see any report before you go to the workingface ?_No; you see the deputy in his office in one part of the mine.

Nightcaps Public Hall.—lsth September, 1911. William Barclay sworn and examined. (No. 19.) 1. The Chairman.'] You are a certificated mine-manager ?—Yes. 2. In charge of the Nightcaps Coal-mine ?—Yes. 3 What mining experience have you had 1— About sixteen years. 4. And how long have you been in charge of this mine ?— Three years. _ _ 5 Will you tell us what it is you wish to bring before the Commission ?— Well, I think at the present time the existing legislation is suitable for our mine. Of course, every name has_ local conditions, and one class of legislation may suit one mine and not another. I also think the administration ot the rules and regulations should be left elastic with the Inspector of Mines. . .. ± . . 6. Would you favour the Inspector of Mines having power to prosecute on his own initiative ?— Yes I That is to say that where he finds the conditions unfavourable he should have a summary power to prosecute without the delay which would be caused by having to send to Wellington for authority to institute proceedings «—Yes, I do. All the Inspectors of Mines I have had to deal with have been men of good mining experience, with a thorough knowledge of whether the conditions are satisfactory or not and have been men who have been held in high esteem, with a good practical knowledge. There is another matter I would like to draw the attention of the Commission to. I think the mine leaders should urge upon the miners the necessity for strictly .observing the rules and regulations m their own interest so far as safety is concerned. , 8 Do you find that the men neglect the precautions already provided for their safety I— Yes. 1 find that the miners seem to think that all the regulations are only for the manager to observe, forgetting that the rules and regulat ; ons are made for their own safety 9 Have you had any difficulty with the workmen's inspectors %— No; but, still, we have trouble sometimes in enforcing the rules. I believe that the mine leaders wish the men to strictly observe the rules ; but it is not an easy matter to enforce them. Then, in regard to the prevention of accidents, I think that the rank of the miners should be raised. In the case of a sailor, he must serve his time before he is accepted as an A.B. ; but at the present time an ordinary labourer, or a farm labourer, can pay his ss. to the miners' union to become a member, and under the preference clause he must be accepted as a miner. . ~ , 10 Do you think it would be conducive to their safety if miners were compelled to gam some experience before being considered competent 1-Yeu, it would raise them socially if they were required to hold certificates under the Coal-mines Act. At the present time men get into a mine, and the management does not know whether they are miners or not, though they may be on the union s books. II Mr Molineaux ] Do you consider there should be an alteration in the regulations as to the time which must be allowed to elapse after firing before a man should return to a miss-fire : it is three hours at presents-Well, I would not recommend any alteration in the present tame. We generally send a man home or find him another place. We do not like to tamper with a shot until the deputy has examined the hole. The deputy always refires the hole. 12.. Do you have many miss-shots ?—Yes, perhaps about 2 per cent,

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[W. BARCLAY.

13. How do you account for these miss-fires : what, in your opinion, is the most prevalent ca-use of them ?—I think most of them are the result of bad stemming, or stones in the stemming. 14. In regard to hot places, do you consider it practicable to fix a standard temperature, on a matter of temperature alone, for a place where a man should not work eight hours ?—No, but I think a maximum temperature could be fixed. 15. You do not think it practicable ? —No, I do not think so. 16. For what reason ?—Well, perhaps I could work in a temperature which would be uncomfortable for you to work in ; and then, again, the temperatures alter very quickly. 17. It depends on the surface conditions ? —That is so : you might have a high temperature both inside and outside in the early part of the day, and in the afternoon it might be quite cool. 18. With your experience in coal-mines, do you consider coal-mining a healthy occupation ? —I do. 19. Have you had any reason to believe that a man working in your mine is more liable to illness than a man employed in an ordinary occupation ?—No ; we have men here fifty and sixty years of age who are healthy and ablebodied. 20. You spoke of the necessity for the men having experience and gaining certificates : what term would you suggest ? —Possibly, two or three years' service. 21. Is it the custom at the present time for the union to accept any man as a member who is prepared to pay his subscription I—l cannot say, but I think the union takes a man's word that he is a miner. 22. Do you consider that some men apply to you for employment whom it would be unsafe to put in a bord by themselves I —Yes, a man should have confidence in himself before he is allowed to work by himself. 23. And you think a man must actually have had experience before he can look after himself in an ordinary place I—Yes,1 —Yes, but they would get work with others in double places. 24. But there are times when you put a man by himself in a place ?—Yes, in single places. 25. But if you employed a man who said he was a competent miner in a single place, he might through lack of knowledge get into serious difficulties ? —Yes, in handling explosives, and through falls from the roof. 26. It is on that account that you think a man should have something to show that he has had previous experience ?—Yes, on that account, and it would be a good thing, too, for those who are experienced coal-miners. 27. The Chairman.] You think that a mere working experience would be sufficient ?—Yes, a mere working experience for, say, two years. 28. Mr. Cochrane.] With regard to making the men observe the rules, what would you recommend ? You say the rules are satisfactory, but the men cannot be made to observe them ? — I say that the union, or the miners' leaders, should urge on the men the necessity for observing the rules. 29. Would you suggest that penalties be provided?— Well, penalties, from the management's point of view, are not of much use. You see, here we are fifteen miles from a Court, and a deputy or other mine official would have to go. 30. What is the height of your highest pillar workings ? —Well, at one time about a year ago we tried to work 25 ft. of pillar and head coal. 31. Are you still doing so ? —No, we reduced it to 12 ft. I will quote from an entry in my diary dated the 31st August, 1910, which is as follows : " Four men brushing heading in old lay-by above the stone parting, and making preparations for working away the top seam before the bottom seam. I have discontinued working these two seams altogether. It is too high for safe working." 32. The reason was that it was too dangerous ?—Yes, we had to prop up the back ground to make it safe after the coal is shot down. 33. And what do you consider a safe height ? —With pillar and head coal, 12 ft. 34. In regard to miss-fires, you give the chief cause of them as bad stemming : have you any other reason to offer for them ? —No. 35. Now, as to temperatures, if it became necessary to fix a standard temperature for reducing a shift from eight to six hours, what would you consider a reasonable thing ? —A maximum of 75° for an eight-hour shift. 36. Saturated ? —Yes, 75° saturated —that is, for an eight-hour shift to be reduced to a six-hour. 37. Mr. Dowgray.] In reply to Mr. Molineaux, you said you thought that the rules should be enforced : what particular rules did you refer to ?— As to men going back after miss-fires before three hours had elapsed ; men visiting places that have not been examined by the deputy; men riding on boxes ; and men not setting timber properly when the underviewer or deputy has instructed them to do so. They set the timber, but they have to be kept up to the work. 38. In regard to permits being granted to men to manage mines without sitting for examination, what is your opinion I—l1 —I think that not more than four or five men should be working under a man with a permit. At the present time the Act allows eight men. We have a good many second-class certificated men in Otago working at the coal-face. 39. You spoke of miners being encouraged to gain a qualification by two years' experience : is there any encouragement for them under the present system of permits ?—lt is still open for a miner to study in order to learn as much as possible about his work. 40. But a man usually studies to better his position ?— Yes. 41. So that you suggest that the number of men under a permit be reduced from eight to four ?—I believe it should be reduced to four or five. 42. Mr. Cochrane.] As a certificated mine-manager, have you had any experience with the wet-and-dry bulb thermometers ?-—No, but I have studied the subject, and Mr. Green, when he has visited the mine, has instructed me in it. I have Dr, Haldane's book on the subject,

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43. The Chairman.'] You have periodical inspections of the mine made by the Inspector ? —Yes. 44. And you say that the conditions are favourable and satisfactory to the men I —Yes, the men themselves say so. Ido all I can to improve their conditions. 45. How many seams were there where you were working the high place ?—Two. 46. Were there any partings I—Yes, from 6 in. to 2 ft. 47. Would these partings render the places more dangerous or liable to fall than if there were no partings ?—No, Ido not think so. It would form a stronger roof above. 48. Would you say that a place 20 ft. high without partings was unsafe, or more safe to work than with the partings, with a good roof? —I do not think a place 20 ft. high would be examined, especially by a deputy with a safety-lamp in the morning. It is very difficult for a deputy at any time to examine places with the present safety-lamp. 49. There are no means of carrying something in the nature of a hooked stick by which you could hold up the lamp when making an examination ?—Yes, we use hooked sticks. 50. If he held his lamp up on a stick would he have a sufficiently commanding view of the light to detect the presence of gas ?—Yes, but not to examine the cracks in the roof. He could detect gas, but not examine the roof by that light. 51. Mr. Dowgray.] Will you tell us how a man could examine the roof by himself reaching, say, 7 ft. and with a stick 14 ft. : how would he be able to detect the effect on the flame ?—He could not detect the cap, but the gas would extinguish the light. 52. What position would he be in if his lamp was to go out: would it not affect him ?—Yes. 53. The Chairman.'] You favour a 12 ft. place ? —Yes, I have been asked the question, and I do. 54. Are ladders not used for examining these high places ? —Yes. 55. Are they satisfactory I —Yes, if they are always available, but they frequently get broken. 56. You would require a ladder in each place ? —No, they have to bring a ladder ; when they are firing shots the ladders do not last long. 57. Mr. Molineaux.] Do you think the examination with a safety-lamp a satisfactory method of examining a mine in the early morning ? —No, Ido not; but, still, Ido not see how you can better it. You must examine with a safety-lamp. 58. Can he see the roof without any trouble % —No, he cannot. 59. It is only a test as to the presence of gas, and does not enable him to make a satisfactory examination of the roof ?—I find that the deputy examines with the lamp, but if he is not satisfied he returns and makes another inspection of the roof with an open light. 60. Can you offer any suggestion with regard to this practice of examining first with a safety-lamp and then with an open light ? —No, the necessity arises only now and then. 61. The Chairman.] You could not do that in a fiery mine, though ? —No. 62. Mr. Molineaux.] But in mines where gas has been found ?—I do not know—sometimes it means a double inspection. 63. Is that always carried out ? —No, only if the occasion demands it. 64. But the roof may be bad at any time ?—Yes. 65. And gas has never been found in your mine ? —Not to my knowledge. 66. Mr. Dowgray.] Does the deputy not sound the roof with a stick I—Yes, but it may sound strong and still have cracks in it which he may not see. Thomas Todd, sworn and examined. (No. 20.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a miner ? —Yes. 2. With how many years' experience ? —Twelve. 3. Do you hold any certificates ?—Yes, a second-class certificate of competency. 4. What is it you wish to place before the Commission ?—I would like to say, in regard to these permits, that I think the number of men a permit-holder may be in charge of is far too many. At present it is eight. 5. What number would you suggest ?—I would specify no number. It should be arranged so that a permit should only be granted, say, for eight men, but only until a manager is obtained. 6. Then what time would you allow a company in which to get a manager ?—Say, not more than three or six months. The permit-holder may have to appoint a deputy or underviewer, who has to be the holder of a certificate, whereas the permit-holder has no certificate. Edwin Ridley sworn and examined. (No. 21.) 1. The Chairman.] You are Inspector of Mines for this district ? —Yes. 2. What certificates do you hold ?—A first-class colliery-manager's certificate by examination, and a first-class certificate under the Mining Act by virtue of my office. 3. How many years' mining experience have you had ?—Thirty-seven. 4. How long have you been Inspector of Mines ? —About twelve years. 5. The Nightcaps Coal-mine comes under your jurisdiction ?—Yes. 6. You make periodical inspections of the mine ?—-Yes. 7. And you take readings of temperature and air-measurements ? —Yes. 8. Have you a schedule of them ?—No, owing to my having been called away by a recent fatality in Canterbury they are not yet ready, but I will hand them to the Commission later. 9. In what condition have you found the mine, generally speaking % —I have reported generally that this mine has been kept in good working-order and condition. There is plenty of timber available ; full attention is paid to the details of working as required by the Cqal-mines Act. In regard to the examination of the mine by officials fully qualified and certificated, every care appears to me to be

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taken by the management. The nature of the coal formation, with its clay backs and joints, is such as to have caused me a good deal of apprehension from time to time, but the management has been careful and satisfactory. There have been serious accidents, but minor accidents are of infrequent occurrence. 10. You have had no complaints from the men % —Not for a considerable time. 11. Do you find that the deputies' examinations are regularly made and the records properly kept ?—Yes ;in fact, the examinations are made more frequently than the Act requires. The statute provides that if more than one shift is employed the firemen and deputies' inspection must be made at intervals of not less than twelve hours; but here the inspections are made every eight hours, and two men, in company, make the morning examinations. 12. Mr. Cochrane.] You have heard the manager make a statement as to the time allowed before returning after a miss-fire : what is your opinion on the matter % —ln coal-mines I consider that the period provided by the Act is a safe one —that is, three hours. 13. Then as to the question of permits, what do you consider a reasonable number of men to be looked after by a man who has no certificate but only one of these permits ? —I presume you are referring to underground working. There are two sets of permits, one for opencast workings and one for underground. I think that eight men underground are too many. 14. How many would you favour % —The Act at one time limited it to six. I think, six, including the permit-holder, should be the maximum. 15. Mr. Dowgray.] You stated that the working of these clay backs caused you considerable anxiety ? —Yes, for some time. 16. But you are pleased to be able to tell us that there have been very few serious accidents : do you attribute that to the skilful working of the mine I—Yes,1 —Yes, and to the fact that the men are accustomed to the working of this class of coal. 17. The men working in this mine are fairly skilled ?—Yes. 18. When on your rounds do you ever find the workmen neglecting to set timber ?—I have very rarely had to call their attention to it ; perhaps now and again the roof may have required attention as the result of being struck by a shot. 19. And the men carry out the regulations % —Yes, as far as I know. 20. The Is there anything else you would like to suggest ?—While we are on the subject I would like to mention that a short time ago we had a few consignments of inferior blastingpowder. This is a matter to which I would like to direct the attention of the Commission. Mr. Barclay could tell you better than I can how that powder, which could not be used, has been brought here. It was not safe to use because it would not explode properly. Some of it was taken to another mine near here, and they could not use it at all. 21. A suggestion has already been made to the Commission that the Government should undertake the manufacture of detonators : have you any recommendation to make on the subject % —Well, I would not go into the matter of detonators —I have no complaints—but in regard to the explosives, we had a conference of Inspectors at Waihi, when we recommended that all explosives imported should bear the date of manufacture, so that the user might know how old the material was. You can understand that when the powder comes to hand in large consignments, and is stored in big quantities, cases are sometimes left in the back of the magazine, and, finally, when the stuff comes from the place where it has been stored it may be damp and not fit for use : so we thought, as Inspectors, after considering the matter, that if the date of manufacture were printed on the case of powder or gelignite —not necessarily on every inside package, but on the outside —it would act as a safeguard. 22. Mr. Cochrane.] Would you recommend anything else in addition to the date in regard to such powder ?—Of course, Ido not want to interfere with the Inspector of Explosives. If I went any further I would be trenching on his ground. Ido not know that I can go any further. 23. Mr. Dowgray.] As a man of considerable experience, can you say whether it would get over the difficulty if the State undertook the manufacture of explosives ?—I do not think my opinion on that point would be of much value. 24. But the opinion of a man holding a first-class mine-manager's certificate, with thirty-seven years' mining experience and twelve years' experience as an Inspector, is worth something ? —Well, we want the best explosives to be supplied. 25. Would not the Government be able to give you the best ?—We have not the ingredients here. 26. But if you could get the ingredients, would not State manufacture be the better way ? —I cannot say. lam not a political economist. 27. The Chairman.] At any rate, you would like to see the very best material used I—Yes,1 —Yes, I would add that latterly there has been a stricter inspection of explosives by that Department.

Invercargill Courthouse.—l6th September, 1911. Edwin Ridley Green—examination continued. 28. Mr. Cochrane.] Have you the tables in regard to the Nightcaps Mine ?—They are here, but I have not yet had time to peruse them. My clerk prepared them. 29. You have some other papers to present ? —They are not ready for presentation yet. 30. Have you work to attend to other than purely mining work % —Yes, I have recently been given the administration of the Stone-quarries Act of last year. Then, a short time back the Public Works Department was short-handed and I was asked to undertake the inspection of some of their roadworks, which I did; but latterly I have been relieved of that work. There are one or two other matters also which I may be asked to attend to from time to time.

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31. Can you tell us how many days in the year you have been occupied on this extra work ?— No, not yet: that is the information lam getting for you. I will produce it at the earliest opportunity. 32. The Chairman.] Does this work interfere with the efficient inspection of the mines under your care ?—I would not like to admit that the mines are not efficiently inspected, but any one can see that these extra duties add to the hours of my employment. 33. Mr. Cochrane.] You do not neglect your inspection duties ? —I do not care to say anything on that point. Of course, I have my superiors, and if they choose to instruct me to undertake this extra work I endeavour to do it. 34. You heard the evidence at Nightcaps ?—Yes. 35. Have you anything to say as to fixing a standard temperature for mines ?—For that mine or all mines ? 36. For all mines generally ?—No. 37. Have you read Dr. Haldane on mine-gases and mine-temperatures ? —-1 have the first edition of his work on the subject, and my bookseller has had my order for a copy of the new edition for twelve months. I have Foster and Haldane's book, issued in 1906. 38. You are accustomed to the taking of wet and dry temperatures ? —Latterly, yes ; they have lately come into vogue. 39. Are you aware that Dr. Haldane states that men cannot carry on continuous work at 80° saturated ? —Yes, I have read something of that in the report of the Royal Commission. 40. Do you agree with it ?—Under certain conditions, I do. 41. What conditions ? —lf the air were bad with foul gases present in the atmosphere. If the air were pure I should say that a man could work in that temperature, but a good deal would depend on his physical condition and the length of time he was required to work, also on the amount of work he was expected to do. 42. You would also take into account whether the air was moving or still I —Yes. 43. And at 78°, would you contradict Dr. Haldane ?—No, we are looking to him for knowledge. 44. Then, if he says 78° is the temperature beyond which it should not go, would you be in favour of the shift being reduced from eight to six hours in saturated air ? —Without professing a deep knowledge of this subject, I may say that I have already given men reduced hours of working in a lower atmosphere than that in foul air. 45. The Chairman.] What element determined that ? —The effect upon myself and the state of the men working there. This does not refer to Nightcaps. One man spoke to me, and I conferred with the manager, with the result that the man was allowed to go home before the shift was finished. The manager agreed to the shift being shortened. 46. Mr. Cochrane.] Do you consider the law as it stands gives you sufficient power to deal with such cases of inadequate ventilation ? —Yes. 47. Have you sufficient power to enforce the law as it now stands ?- —Yes ; that is to say, if I find a place which in my opinion is inadequately ventilated —if the ventilation provided is not an infringement of the special rules in regard to large quantities of firedamp, &c. —of course, I would ask that the men should be withdrawn; but, as a rule, I find that that is done. 48. But the question is, does the law at present give you sufficient power to compel a company to provide the men with adequate ventilation ? —Yes, I have instituted proceedings against a company for not providing the prescribed quantity of air at the working-face. The manager contended that the air was put into the mine and that was sufficient; but Mr. Widdowson, S.M., held otherwise—that the men must get it at the face. 49. Would you favour reducing the present three-hour limit for returning to miss-fires ?—I think they might do it in quartz-mines, but not in coal-mines. I notice in quartz that one hour has been suggested. In that matter I bow to the opinion of others. 50. What is the difference in principle ? —Quartz-dust is not .combustible, while coaldust is. 51. Now, have you anything to say in regard to signalling in alluvial mines ?—No. I have no underground alluvial mines in my district. 52. Mr. Fletcher.] Do those other duties, such as the inspection of roads and bridges, prevent you from carrying out your regular duties as Inspector of Mines ?—No. 53. You look after the mines first and leave the other duties to be attended to afterwards ?—Yes. 54. Mr. Dowgray.] In reply to a question by Mr. Cochrane, you stated that you had reduced shifts from eight to six hours by request of the men ?—Yes. 55. And you take into consideration the effect of the air upon yourself and the conditions under which the men are working. Do you think a nian is in a better position to judge of the effects upon himself of working in such a place than you ?—Yes, a man must know more about it from his own point of view than I would. 56. There is a point which has struck me but which we have not touched upon yet. We have been dealing with quartz-mines and the gases found in them. I would like your opinion as regards coal-mines —as to whether a deputy, when he discovers gas in a mine, should let it remain there until sampled by the manager to ascertain the amount and quality of gas in that particular section of the mine. Of course, the deputy in the first instance has to report his own opinion ?—Well, if there were a large body of gas, I would say that the deputy should call the manager; but if it were only a small quantity he could remove it by brattice. The deputy is an experienced man and holds a certificate. 57. But they have not a great deal of experience in regard to gases ?—lt is a complicated matter. 58. Would this not be encouraging them to use their judgment ? Both the manager and the deputy would take samples, which could be compared, and perhaps by that method they would gain more practical knowledge. Would you agree to such a provision as that being embodied in the Act ? —Yes, we are advancing every day. Ido that sort of thing frequently. You wish the manager to collect and keep records. Yes, it would be an extra safeguard.

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59. And they would thus gain that practical experience which we all wish them to have ?—Yes. 60. And that the managers should take the samples also ? —Yes, if the- samples were properly taken and analysed. A good deal depends on the collection of the gases in the first place, and the samples must be handled carefully. If a manager is to collect a sample of air and happens to be a little careless in not properly sealing it and so forth, some of the contents might escape and the results mightread less dangerous, thereby giving a false sense of security to the management. 61. Still, they would gather experience in the taking of samples ?—Yes, it would be an advantage. 62. And then your samples would be a check on them ?—Yes. 63. So you would suggest that such a provision be embodied in the Act, and that the sample be taken in the return airway ?—Yes, I agree with that in gaseous mines.

Alexandra Codethouse.—22nd September, 1911. Edwin Ridley Gkeen—examination continued. 64. The Chairman.'] Have you the tables in connection with the Nightcaps Colliery ?—Yes, I produce three tables, showing the fatalities at the Nightcaps Colliery from 1900 to 1911, the non-fatal accidents for the years 1906 to 1911 inclusive, and the barometrical, thermometrical measurements and analyses of air taken by me since 1908. This does not include the analysis of the last sample taken by me, the report on which has not yet been received from the Dominion Analyst. [Exhibit 15, copy of analysis of air now submitted, put in.]

Kaitangata Courthouse, 26th September, 1911. Edwin Ridley Green —examination continued. 65. The Chairman.] You have some tables relating to the Kaitangata Mine to produce, I understand ?—Yes, I produce (1) list of fatalities in Kaitangata Colliery since 1900, (2) list of fatalities in the Castle Hill Colliery since 1900, and (3) barometer and thermometer readings, and measurements and analyses of air, from Kaitangata Colliery. [Exhibit No. 17, put in.] James Norton sworn and examined. (No. 22.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ?—A coal-miner. 2. Do you hold any office in any union or in the mine % —-I hold the position of local secretary of this branch of the Otago Coal-miners' Union. 3. Well, as secretary of the union, or as a miner, have you anything to lay before the Commission, either by way of suggestion for the improvement of the mining conditions, or as a remedy for matters requiring attention?— The only suggestion I have been asked to place before the Commission is that in the event of the Inspector requiring the manager of a mine to attend to any matters, a list of those matters should be handed to the local secretary to see that the same are attended to before his next visit. 4. Is there any other matter you wish to refer to ? —No, I think that is all. 5. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you find that in this district it is commonly known when the Inspector is s coming to visit the locality ?—Well, we are always aware a few days before he comes that he is coming. 6. Can you attribute that to any particular cause ? —No, it seems to be generally known in the town that Mr. Green is going his rounds—not to any particular person. 7. Do you think it would be any benefit if his visit were kept secret ?—No, I do not see that it would make any difference—not, at any rate, to the work of our mine. 8. The Chairman.] You have no conditions to complain of ?—-No. 9. Then it does not matter whether he comes openly or secretly?— No. 10. Mr. Dowgray.] Can you tell us how you know he is coming ?—Everybody in the town seems to know. We do not know the day definitely, but it is generally known that Mr. Green will visit the district shortly. 11. Is he looked upon as one of the notable persons who come into the district ?—No ; I could not say as to that. 12. Mr. Cochrane.] Are you aware that the Inspector of Mines has other duties to perform, such as roadworks and subsidies ?—No. 13. Would it not be that his visits become known as the result of these local-body works ?—lt may be. Ido not know. 14. Did you ever make a,ny attempt to trace as to how his visits became known ? —No, it has never affected us, and we have never gone to any trouble to find out. William Crowe sworn and examined. (No. 23.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ?—A miner. 2. Do you hold any office in the mine ? —No. 3. Do you hold any office under the union ?—No, except that I am on the executive. 4. How long have you been mining ? —About twenty years. 5. Where did you get your mining experience ?—Mostly in Kaitangata, also a little in Western Australia. 6. You hold no certificates ?-r-Ne.

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7. Upon what matters do you wish to inform the Commission ?—I wish to discuss the working of pillars and tops which is adopted. I wish to see it improved in one way or another, as the present system is not consistent with safety. 8. What is the present system ? —The pillars are taken out at present three or four abreast. There may be several pairs of men getting up to the stone, and perhaps a lot of the stone falls. We may be breaking back the pillars, and if one or two men are working a pillar or bord it begins to get dangerous; and another party may be filling coal further on —that is dangerous. 9. Have you any suggestions to ofier for a safer method ?—I would suggest that a section be left, and in time the roof and floor would get pretty well back again. 10. And then you could go back to it I—Yes,1 —Yes, you could go back to it and it could be opened up again. They should keep driving the levels forward, and coming back again to them in, say, twelve months' time. If they are going to extract the pillars, I should say that a- strip should be left in. 11. What is your opinion as to the number of accidents which occur in this mine ? —Well, I have not had any accident; nor have I been near any one that has been hurt. It is not the accidents which should be considered, but the narrow escapes that take place. 12. You have to be on the alert % —Yes, and that is where the trouble comes in. There are per! aps three parties working close together and making a great noise with the shovels, and they have to keep calling out to one another. If we drove a bord and then left a strip there would not be so much danger by reason of the noise, even if a shell of only from 3 ft. to 6 ft. were left in between each pillar or bord. 13. Is that all you wish to say in regard to the height of pillars % —Well, another way would be to drive the places, and we want cover of some sort more than anything else, where we can prop the roof, which is never safe. 14. What is the average height of the pillars you are working % —The bords may be 6 ft. or 7 ft., but the pillars depend upon the thickness of the coal. 15. It was your place we were in to-day ? —Yes, some of the Commissioners were there to-day. 16. What is the height of that place % —Right at the fall it is over 20 ft. The stone is all down now —it fell after the Commissioners left. 17. Is there any other matter you wish to bring before the Commission —as to ventilation, for instance % —No, the main thing is that the pillars and tops should be worked on a different system. 18. What sanitary arrangements have you \ —We have none —we generally use an old air-course. 19. Have you any objection to find with that practice I—No,1 —No, it is the best thing to do in the meantime. If you made a special place it would soon be lost, because we are continually shifting. 20. Mr. Dowgray.] In connection with the height of the top coal, do you think there should be a maximum height ?—Yes. 21. Would you say what you consider a safe height ? —At present there is no maximum and no minimum. I think it should be about 15 ft., or, if the stone were higher, perhaps a little higher. 22. Does the nature of the roof vary ?—Yes, a great deal; but when it is good it does not last long. 23. What method do you adopt for-examining the roof ? —We tap it with the pick. 24. By climbing up a ladder? —Yes, and if we are in doubt sometimes we also tap it with a long pole. 25. Does the company insist upon your going to the roof on every occasion I—Not1 —Not on every occasion. Where there is a clay roof we are told to leave a foot or two to hold it, but where it is conglomerate I have never been stopped from going up to the stone. 26. The Chairman.] What is the highest you can timber ? —ln cases, about 12 ft. —that is the highest prop we ever put in. 27. Mr. Dowgray.] What is the highest place you have worked in in this mine I—Well,1 —Well, I have never measured it. In places it has been 20 ft. or 24 ft. ; but it is not often like that. 28. Are you in a position to judge of that roof by reaching with a pick or a long pole I —Hardly. 29. You would not be able to examine that, then ?—No. 30. Even the sound is not a satisfactory guide ?—Yes, it is, mostly. 31. Which, in your opinion, is the safest method of satisfying yourself ?—By tapping it. 32. You need to get close to it ? —Yes, as close as you can. 33. How do you get your explosives in this mine ? —Well, we have been in the habit of taking them down, and leaving them down till they are required. 34. Do you mean that you carry them down and put them by the side of the pillar ?— Yes, that has been the way it has been done during the last twenty years : the custom has been to leave them there till they are required. 35. And the detonators ? —They are left there too, in a tin. 36. Just laid by the side of the pillars ?—Yes, in a safe place. 37. And the gelignite lying loose ?—Well, it is in the regulation tins. 38. That is, the tins supplied by the makers ? —No, by the company. 39. Do you think that is a safe method I—l1 —I would not care about carrying any shots up and down every day. We should keep them in small wooden boxes. 40. You think that boxes should be provided ?—Yes, just enough for four men. 41. I was in your place to-day. Do you tell us that it collapsed about ten minutes after we left ? —Yes. 42. It looked all right when we were there I —Yes, that may be so ; but I told Mr. McAlister that there was a movement on. 43. Does it give you much warning % —No, the stone does not. There was a smooth horizontal parting, but the stone sounded all right. It came away from a smooth parting, so that even with a hammer you could not tell,

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44. With, your experience as a miner can you tell where the stone roof is bad when a piece of stone is 5 ft. thick ?—No, though it may sound all right. In this place, I was up there this morning, but I waa not placing a great deal of reliance on it. There were large blisters on it. There are places where you can rely on it, especially in No. 3 section, but most of the time you cannot. 45. When men are working in six-hour places, how do they get out when the rope is going ? — Walk out. 46. Do you get permission from the manager to travel on the road ?--—Yes; that is, if it is a wet place. I have not worked in a wet place—a six-hour place—since that rope has been put in. We have worked in hot places. 47. Do you get a reduction of hours for hot places ?— We have difficulty in doing so. 48. The Chairman.] What do you call a hot place —what temperature ? —Well, we have no thermometer. It is not altogether the heat—sometimes the air is not very good. 49. Who decides what is a six-hour place ?—I do not know. I suppose, if the men contend it is a six-hour place, they have some say in it as well as the management. There is hardly such a thing in the mine as a six-hour place unless they are wet. We do not get a reduction, as a rule, for hot places. 50. Have you had any experience of taking temperatures ?—No. 51. Have you seen them taken ? —No. 52. So that you do not know what the temperature would be ? —No. 53. Mr. Dowgray.] You heard a remark made to-day while travelling in the mine—l believe, by the Inspector of Mines—that the men prefer working on pillars to the solid places % —I have been trying to get out of the pillars for fifteen years. 54. For what reason ? —There is not so much strain. 55. What do you mean by " strain " % —Well, listening for small bits dropping. Sometimes I know there is something wrong. 56. The Chairman.] Where were you when the stone fell to-day ?—A trucker was in there, and the box was not quite full. I said to him, " Give us a pull," and just as we got into safety it came down. 57. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you think the company would get as much coal under the system you advocate as under the present system I—l1 —I do not think there could be much difference. The coal is buried a good deal, and it really belongs to us ; whereas if we had a coal roof we would get it practically all. 58. Can you tell us what is the difference between the stentons I—Generally,1—Generally, about 60 ft. 59. Do you think that is a satisfactory distance ? —We would certainly like them closer sometimes. 60. Mr. Fletcher.] Could you take any top coal out and leave some up with safety ? —Yes, in many places we could. 61. If 4 ft. or 5 ft. or 6 ft. of coal were left up, could you get the other with safety % —Yes, because we know when the coal is pretty good. 62. Did you say that 12 ft. props are the longest you use ?—Yes ; but 6 ft. and 7 ft. is the ordinary length. 63. The Chairman] For taking out pillars ? —We use the same size props. Then, if it does not fall we have to shoot it down. 64. Mr. Fletcher.] Do you consider 60 ft. is a long distance between cut-throughs ?—Well, as a rule, Ido not consider it too far. It depends upon the air, which is sometimes very good. 65. But it would weaken the place ? —ln my opinion, it would not make much difference to put them in oftener than that. 66. But if you drove a cat-through, every 10 yards you would reduce the strength ? —Perhaps. If they were narrow it would reduce the strength of the pillar. 67. But if they were narrow you would get the air in ? —A 6 ft. stenton would be quite sufficient. 68. But the practice is to have the pillars as large as possible. I would advocate larger pillars than you have here I—And1 —And then split them ? 69. It does not matter at the end —it would give more strength behind you : do you not think so ? —Yes; but sometimes we have to go too. far from cover. 70. Bat supposing you left some of the coal up, say, 5 ft. or 6 ft., would it be safe then ? —lt would be better if we were leaving a certain amount of coal. It would depend on the height of the stone. 71. Mr. Cochrane.] Do you leave unused gelignite and detonators in the mine overnight ?—That has been the practice up till lately. 72. And were the management aware of your doing so ? —Yes, I suppose so ; it has been the practice for years. 73. Then, as to the roof, does the natural rock roof vary—have you a false roof at places ?—lt is very seldom ; as a rule, it is coal. 74. lam not speaking of any coal that may be left. The usual roof is what ?—Conglomerate. 75. Do you ever find clay underneath it ? —Very seldom, though I have seen it in places. There may be 2 ft. or 3 ft. of clay, and that is the worst roof you can possibly get in the Kaitangata Mine. 76. As to the explosives, are they not served out in canisters ? —Yes. 77. What sort of canisters —the ordinary canisters ?■—Yes, about 1 ft. long, which holds sixteen plugs of gelignite. 78. And it is in these you take the explosive in ? —-Yes ; and we have a little tin for the caps, too. 79. Mr. Reed.] In regard to the fall which you say took place to-day—l was with Mr. McAlister — you said it was dangerous ; how did you know ?—By small pieces trickling down. 80. Had you sounded it previously ?—Yes, this morning.

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W. 6ROWE.J

81. And you found it unsafe ?—No, just as it was yesterday. 82. How was that ?—lt was supposed to be as solid as a rock. 83. So that the sounding was not efficient to-day ?—lt was just as good as it was yesterday. 84. And the sounding was no criterion as to its state ? —No. 85. You spoke of working the pillars by leaving an alternative rib % —Yes. 86. You would leave a shell : would you expect to be paid solid rates for driving through the pillars % —lt is all one rate here. 87. So that you would get the same rate ?—Yes. 88. Regarding the explosive which you said was left underground, how much was served out ?— I could not tell you that. 89. The Chairman.] Can you say for certain when you left explosives underground, and what quantity ? —As many as four shots—sixteen plugs. 90. Mr. Reed.] Where did you leave it ? —At the corner of the pillar. 91. What was it in 1— Tins. 92. The Chairman.] How long is it since then ?—There is a new practice now. 93. Who instituted this new practice ?—I cannot say ; I was just told by the deputy. 94. How long ago I—About1 —About a week ago. 95. Mr. Reed.] Are you sure that the management knew '{ —1 should think so. 96. Are you sure —this is an impeachment of the company ?—lt is possible they did not know. I am not charging them with anything ; but our tins were always there for any one to see. 97. Are you positive that the management was aware of this being done on any one occasion ? —I do not know. I only assume it. I should think they were. 98. Is it not a fact that a shift's supply is served out at the beginning of each shift % —The men who want ammunition get it from the man in charge. 99. One shift's supply ?—Yes. 100. The Chairman.] Could you say why the new arrangement came to be instituted ?—No, we were just told to take our ammunition out. 101. Mr. Dowgray.] The new system only came into force about a week ago ? —Yes. 102. You stated that the roof was as solid as a rock ; who told you that ?—I formed my own opinion of it. Mr. McAlister was in there yesterday, and thought so too —tliose were his words. He passed that remark to Sam Clarkson, who was working on the other side. He told me to trim down the loose coal. 103. It only goes to prove that you cannot always judge by the sound ? —Yes. 104. I believe you said that the other stentons are 60 ft. apart ; are you sure that is the system here I—l1 —I have never measured them, but I believe that is the distance. It may be longer sometimes. 105. The Chairman.] You did not draw the manager's attention to the stone when he was there to-day ? —No, I could not say that it was bad. 106. Did you ask him a question about the pillar % —lt was as to how to take out that pillar. 107. Mr. Dowgray.] When I was going round I saw a number of stoppings : are they always kept up like that ?—Well, where I am working just now there have been stoppings put in this last two or three weeks. 108. The company always keeps these stoppings well up ?—Yes, as well as they can. 109. How do you get your lamps lit when they go out I—We1 —We send them up by the trucker, who gives them to the horse-driver. 110. Are you not held responsible for your lamps ? —We generally send them out. 111. Do you think the system could be improved ? —Yes. 112. Can you suggest any improved method ?—I do not know, unless we had a fire-station further in. When a man's light goes out it is out a long time. 113. You have been here a long time : have you ever had anything to do with this windingapparatus at Castle Hill ? —I was there three or four years ago when they were having a trial. The executive were asked to attend it. 114. Were they satisfied with the system ?—No, we were not satisfied with it. We let it stand as it was, though we did not approve of it. 115. Have the men come up it ? —One or two men went down that day. 116. Did they express any opinion ] —No, but they got half-drowned with smoke and water. 117. What is the opinion of the men in regard to the escape shaft I—They1—They do not approve of it by any means. 118. Do they ever discuss it amongst themselves? —Sometimes —if anything happens they may say a word or two. 119. Does everybody know the road to the escape shaft in your mine—the Kaitangata ? No ; it would not be an easy thing to find it. 120. Do you not think you should have fingerposts % —Yes, we could do with more signposts. 121. You would suggest that fingerposts should be put up pointing the road to the return shaft ?— Yes ; there are one or two now, but they get neglected. William Nicholas sworn and examined. (No. 24.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ?— A miner. 2. Do you hold any office in the mine or in the union ?—No. \ 3. How long have you been mining ? —About twenty-five years. 4. Where ? —ln the Old Country, Queensland, and New Zealand. 5. How long have you been working in this mine ?—About seventeen years. 6. Have you had any experience, of taking temperatures ? —No.

13—C. 4.

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[W. NICHOLAS.

7. Have you had any experience of what they call hot places or six-hour places ? —I have had experience of hot places, but have never worked six-hour shifts in them. 8. You have never had a reduction to six hours ?—No, not for hot places. 9. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission ?—Well, principally the working of head coal. Ido not think the present system is safe. 10. You have heard what the previous witness had to say in that matter : do you agree with him ?— Yes. 11. Have you anything to add to what he has said ? —No, except that a strip should be left between the places, about 3 ft. or 4 ft., to deaden the sound of the shovels. 12. Mr. Dowgray.] I believe you were deputy in this mine ?—No, in the Castle Hill Mine. 13. I believe your mate was killed here ? —Yes, my back mate, McG-hee, was killed. 14. Can you describe that accident ? —Well, he was filling coal that had fallen or been shot down. It looked fairly safe to me when I knocked off work at 3 o'clock. 15. You thought it a comparatively safe place ? —Yes. 16. And yet a man was killed there ? —Yes. 17. Was it in high pillars ? —Yes, but the coal did not come down from a great height—l should say, from 7 ft. to 10 ft. 18. Was it higher on the side % —lt was up from 18 ft. to 20 ft. inside. 19. It was in one of the places where they were bringing the top coal back ? —Yes. 20. What have you to say with regard to a maximum height for bringing top coal back ? —I should say 15 ft. is high enough. 21. When travelling in the mine to-day my attention was directed to a stopping in the main south extension which has been renewed several times : can you tell us what is behind that stopping ?— It was connected with No. 3 back heading, and there was a great deal of open work there. 22. Is there any anxiety amongst the miners as to that %■ —I cannot say that there is. They do not ■know what is there, though I heard a man say a fortnight ago, " God help the men if that stopping blows out." That was just a daj>- or two after another stopping blew out. 23. Is that where the stopping blew out a fortnight or three weeks ago I —l could not say —[ was not in the mine at the time, but I heard that remark. 24. The Chairman.'] There was a report in the papers, but you do not know of your own knowledge ?—No. 25. And no one connected with the management has ever said to you that there was such a stopping blown out ? —No. 26. Mr. Dowgray. ] On looking over the report-books, I see that the deputy reports gas frequently : are the miners allowed to proceed to those places ?—No, Ido not think so. I have' been told, " There is a little gas in the roof ; keep your lamp down." If I find gas, I draw the attention of the deputy to it, and he tells me to get out of the place. 27. Did you ever work in that dip in No. 21 section ? —Yes, at the beginning of last quarter I was there. 28. I noticed in that particular section that the stentons are not 60 ft. apart: is there not a difficulty in ventilating that section I —There were two or three bords inside, and they were often gassed out when I was there. 29. And you could not suggest any different method of driving these places ?—No, I could not suggest any other method unless the ends or stentons were put through oftener. 30. Mr. Cochrane.] You say you think it a better method to leave a strip of coal between the places ?—Yes. 31. Will you explain what you mean by that I—Well, what I mean is that each place should come out separately, instead of two or three pillars coming out abreast. A strip should be left on each side to deaden the sound of the shovels. If there are three places working there are six shovels going. If you hear some small pieces trickling down, you have to stop the whole of the places, whereas if there were a strip left you would not need to disturb the other men. 32. Then you say you have been told to keep your lamp down because there was a little gas in your place : who told you that ?—The deputy who passes me in. 33. And was there any attempt made to clear the place of gas ?—Well, as soon as they started to work the gas would probably clear itself; but if it did not the deputy would withdraw the men. 34. And you would leave your work I—Yes.1 —Yes. 35. Mr. Reed.] What is your opinion of the ventilation of the Kaitangata Mine—is it good, bad, or indifferent at the present time I—Well,1 —Well, I believe there is a good current of air passing through most of the places, but in some places it is very hot. 36. Does the company take every precaution to remove the gas as it emanates from the face ?—-Yes. 37. Is the bratticing brought up to the face 'I —Yes. 38. Do the firemen and deputies examine for gas frequently ?—Well, they examine a place when they come to pass a shift in. 39. And if gas is found are you ordered out and a notice put up ?—Yes. 40. Does the company take all necessary precautions to protect the men from explosions and the effects of the gas ? —Yes, I think so, and also in their own interests. 41. Mr. Dowgray.] When you were deputy at Castle Hill, did that furnace, adequately ventilate the mine I—Yes.1 —Yes. 42. Has there ever been any agitation to have that furnace replaced by a fan ?—Well, the men have talked about it, but that is as far as it has gone. 43. The Chairman.] They have not made any representations to the company on the subject I—No. 44. Mr. Dowgray.] They thought there was danger of an explosion by reason of the air passing over the flames ?—Yes, that is so,

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John Heard sworn and examined. (No. 25.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ? —A miner. 2. How many years' experience have you had ? —1 have been working in the Kaitangata Mine eighteen years; I have been away for about a year during that time. 3. Do you hold any office in the mine ? —No. 4. Or any position in connection with the luiion % —I am on the executive. 5. To what matters do you wish to direct the attention of the Commission ? —To the working of the pillars and head coal. I agree with what the other witnesses have said on the subject. I think it is worked too high at present for the safety of the men. 6. Have you any suggestions to offer ? —No, I cannot improve on their statements. 7. You agree with their views ? —Yes. ■ 8. Is there any other matter you wish to bring before the Commission ? —Yes, I would like to see the ropeway at Castle Hill cleared of trucks for the men to go in. ■9. Does their presence there make it in any way dangerous, or only inconvenient ? —lt is not dangerous, but very inconvenient. 10. You have never known any accident happen through the present system ? —No. 11. Have you anything to say as to the ventilation ? Are you satisfied with it ? —Yes, lam quite satisfied with the ventilation we get in the Castle Hill Mine. 12. Have you anything to say as to that emergency escape ? —I consider it is a long way behind the times. I would not like to use it myself. 13. What are your objections ?—Well, if two men went up in that bucket they would never get to the top. 14. What do you consider the danger ?—The men are not accustomed to riding in those tubs— it is not a very safe way. 15. Is the method of hauling a safe way ? —I could not say—l have not seen it working. 16. Mr. Dowgray.] You think it is only fit for use as a last resource % —Yes, I consider it a paltryaffair. 17. The Chairman.] Is there anything underground to indicate the direction to that place underground in case of emergency ? —I think the men could find it. 18. Mr. Dowgray.] Could you find your way round the furnace I—Yes,1 —Yes, easily. 19. There are no fingerposts pointing the way ? —Well, I have not been in there for a long time. 20. Do you carry your own picks out ? —We carry them down in the morning, but they come up in the box. 21. Is there a>ny danger in the men carrying their picks ? —There might be. ft would be a greatadvantage to the men if their picks were always taken in the boxes. 22. You were a deputy there I—Yes, for a short time. 23. Have you met with a serious accident ? —Yes, I had two fingers taken off. 24. How did that occur ?—When I was falling head coal. 25. Do you agree with the recommendation of the two previous witnesses as to the system of working ? —Yes. 26. Judging from your experience, do you think there, is anything against adopting that system ? —No, I think it would be a good system —better than the present one. 27. Why did you discontinue working as a deputy ?—I did not care for it. 28. But it is harder working on the coal ? —But you are not tied so much when working on the coal. 29. You think the responsibility is too great ? —Well, no, I did not think that, but I preferred the coal. 30. Would you prefer working in solid places to the pillars ?—Yes, working in the solid places is safer; but I have not done anything else but pillar-work, and take no notice of it now. 31. Mr. Cochrane.] Have you seen the bottom of the upcast shaft ? —Yes. 32. Were there wire-rope guides on the buckets ?—That T could not tell you. 33. Mr. Reed.] You stated that you. left the position of deputy to work at pillar-extraction ?—Yes, that was my fancy. 34. So you fancy dangerous work ?—I do not think so. 35. Nevertheless you made the change ? —Yes. 36. The Chairman.] What is the difference in pay ? —Sometimes you make more, and sometimes less. 37. Mr. Reed.] As regards the ventilation in the Kaitangata Mine, what is your opinion. ?—1 cannot say anything on the present ventilation. It is some time since I was in that mine. I am working in the Castle Hill Mine now. 38. Was that practice of taking the explosives down adopted ? —ln the morning we took down the explosives for the day. 39. So that the manager served out only the day's allowance ?—The manager has nothing to do with it; we got it from the storeman. 40. But he represents the management ? —Yes, I suppose so. 41. You asked for a day's supply ?—Yes. 42. The Chairman.] What was the average quantity taken for a day ?—About two shots —that is, eight plugs—and caps, and two lengths of fuse. 43. Have you ever left gelignite or dynamite after your shift ?—Yes, we left it for our mates. 44. And they know where it is left ? —Yes. 45. Are you aware, of your own knowledge, of that practice being known to the management ? » Well, I suppose the management would know of it. There was nothing to stop them knowing it. The management never asked us.

b.—l.

[j. HEABfj.

46. What is your practice in Castle Hill now ?■—We do not need many shots there—about a shot a shift is sufficient for us. 47. Do you still leave it below, or have you received any fresh instructions on the subject ?~—No, 1 have had no fresh instructions. 48. Mr. Reed.] Were you aware that you were breaking the law when handing the explosives over to the following shift ?—No. I thought it was all right, as long as we had the ammunition in tins. 49. The Act states that it shall not be taken foi use into the workings of the mine except in quantities actually required dining the shift. Did you know that ?—-Well, we generally took what was required for the shift. 50. But you really took in more and left it, so that you were breaking the law ?—Well, 1 suppose other men break the law as well as we. 51. Mr. DowgrayJ] I saw some men in the mine wearing gauzes : are they safeguards ?—I do not think they are very safe. 52. Have you seen men using them ? —Yes. 53. Do they hinder your sight I —Of course, you cannot see with them as well as you can with the naked eye. 54. So that you consider them a source of danger ? —Well, they stop the biggest pieces of coal getting into your eyes—they are a slight protection. 55. You do not use them in pillar-extraction ? —No, only when the coal is proud. 56. Mr. Cochrane.'] You said you would like to see the rope-road clear of all the tubs for starting in the morning : do you think that is a feasible proposition ?—I do. 57. Would it not cause great delay ? —No, not that I can see. 58. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you not come into contact with wire when walking down there ?—Yes. sometimes. 59. There is danger in carrying your picks ?—Yes. Robert Nicholas Redd sworn and examined. (No. 26.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ? —Secretary of the Coal-miners' Union. 2. What is the strength of your union ? —We have a total strength approximating something like five hundred members in Otago and Southland. 3. And how many in Kaitangata ?—I could not tell you exactly, but somewhere between two hundred and ten and two hundred and fifty. 4. And what proportion of the miners in Kaitangata does that represent ? —The great majority of them are members of the union. 5. Do you speak on behalf of your union or from your own personal experience ? —To a certain extent from both. 6. What mining experience have you had I—As1 —As a miner, about seven or _ eight years. 7. In Kaitangata ? —No, in other districts. 8. Do your duties take you into the mines ?—Yes, fairly often. 9. In w r hat way ? —I occupy the position of workmen's inspector, and nearly every quarter lam appointed as one of the scrutineers to draw the quarterly cavil. 10. As workmen's inspector, what do you do ? —Well, there are generally two workmen's inspectors, and their duties are occasionally to go down and examine the mine. 11. What is your personal experience of that mine ?—I am of opinion that under the existing state of affairs the workmen's inspector is only a farce. 12. When you have examined the mine what have.you found ? —We usually make out a report, and forward a copy of the report to the mine-manager. 13. How often do you make these inspections ?—At no stated periods. 14. When did you make the last one ? —The last inspection was made on the occasion of the accident to the late Joseph Carson. 15. Prior to that when did you inspect ? —1 cannot give you the exact date, but the one before that was made when the late John McGhee met his death. 16. How often do you make these inspections ? —Well, it is the usual thing to make an inspection if there are any complaints from the miners. There are no stated periods for the inspections. We find that under the Act the workmen's inspectors can only claim admission to a mine once a month, and if he goes down to-day and finds it in passable order there may be a pressing necessity for him to go down again inside a month. So we do not go down regularly, in case there may be a complaint from the men as to the conditions not being good. 17. Do you think it would be an improvement from a safety point of view if, in addition to the right to inspect once a month, the workmen's inspector had the right to go down in case of accident % —We have that right already in cases of fatal accident. 18. Have you any suggestion to make on the subject ? —1 should say that the workmen's inspector should have practically the same right as the Inspector of Mines to go down at any time. And, further than that, they should have increased powers. All that they can do at present is to go down and inspect the mine and make a report, a copy of which is sent to the mine-manager. If the matter is serious a copy is sent to the Inspector of Mines, but that is the last of it. I should imagine that if the inspection proves that the mine is dangerous the workmen's inspector should have the right to say work in the place should be stopped until the Government Inspector can visit it. 19. What experience ought a workmen's inspector to have in order to have the right to interfere ? —He should have a certain amount of practical experience; he should be a miner. 20. How would you suggest that his experience and ability should be tested ? —Well, it is rather a difficult matter. 1 have not considered it from that point of view.

R. N. RIDD.]

C.—4.

21. Well, you ask for more powers as an inspector. Of course, some workmen's inspectors may have sufficient experience, but some of them may not ?—That may be so, but that remark may also apply to other men who are not sufficiently experienced. 22. But you should give some guarantee against interference by inexperienced men. What test would you make them pass to prove their qualification ?—Well, that is not a question I can answer exactly. L have no doubt that they should have a certain amount of experience, and that that experience should be proved before they should get these powers. Ido not advocate that as seriously as 1 do the necessity for them to have the right to inspect the mine more frequently—even if they are not given as great powers as I suggested —so that they should be recognized a little more than they are at the present time. 23. When you speak of complaints, is not that rather vague 1 You might easily get a complaint made only to give you the right to go down ?—I do not say that it should be necessary to have a complaint before the inspector can go down. As a matter of fact, he is not anxious to run round the mine for fun. He would need to be satisfied that there is a necessity for him to go down. 24. To what extent does the inspection interfere with the working conditions of the mine ? — 1 am not aware of it interfering in any way, except that if the manager exercises his right to accompany ' the inspector. That may take him away from other work, but he does not need to go. 25. But what about using the ways when the ropes are going ?—Well, the custom here has been for the workmen's inspector to go down before the rope starts in the morning, so as not to interfere with the working of the mine. 26. Have you any other matter to bring before the Commission ? — Well, in addition to my previous suggestion, it is the opinion of my union that workmen's inspectors, seeing that they are carrying out an important duty, should be paid by the Government. 27. Well, now, has your union passed any resolutions in regard to matters to be placed before this Commission, or can you speak with the authority of any number of any members of your union ?— Well, sir, I can only speak with the authority of the management committee of the union. The matter has been left entirely in their hands as dealing with the Kaitangata and Castle Hill Mines. 28. What matters are they ?-— The most of the matters have been dealt with by previous witnesses. 29. 1 suppose you have no experience of working pillars in the mine ? —No ; but T might say that there is one matter which I think should be taken into consideration, though it was not brought up since the Commission was set up. A general meeting of the union here carried a motion condemning the present system. 30. Did the witnesses we have already examined voice the general opinion of the union ? —I take it, sir, that they do. They are representative witnesses and experienced miners. There is also another matter which I personally wish to bring forward, but not as secretary of the union. Personally, I object very much to anybody being allowed to travel on that travelling-road in the Kaitangata Mine while the rope is in motion, because I consider it is anything but safe. VVe have known many runaways on that incline. There have been no accidents, but that is by good luck, I think. 31. Mr. Doivyray.] In your official capacity as secretary of the union have you had occasion to discuss the dangerous methods practised with the management ?— Yes ;on one occasion our executive met the management and we discussed certain matters in connection with pillar-extraction, and the manager told us that if a miner considered his place unsafe they would almost have no alternative but to dismiss the men. 32. The Chairman.} When was that ? —lt was during last year. 1 cannot give you the exact date. Of course, when we pointed out the seriousness of his statement he toned it down, and tried to make it refer to something in the past; but he made that statement, and it can be proved by witnesses who will come before the Commission to-morrow. 33. When did the variation or toning down take place—at the same interview ? — Yes, when I pointed out the seriousness of his attitude. 34. Well, what was the upshot of that : did it go any further ? Was there any result ? — Well, that was only a side-issue which arose at the interview. 35. Mr. Dowgray.] Did you discuss the methods suggested by the three previous witnesses as to pillar-extraction ?—No, not at that time. 36. The Chairman.] What other dangerous practices were you discussing ?• —We were discussing the matter of taking a strip alongside the pillar when the side of the pillar was blocked by a fall of stone. We were trying to persuade the management that it was better to cut through the pillar again rather than take a strip alongside the pillar when carrying out pillar-extraction. 37. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you mean, like McGhee's place in Castle Hill Mine I —Yes, that could be said to be typical. 38. Are the men not allowed discretionary powers as to when the place is safe or not ?—Well, J really could not say. When men say a place is unsafe they tell me they are ridiculed —they are told it is as safe as a house. 39. Have you known of a case oi a man going home when they thought a place was not safe to work in, and the management thought it was safe enough ?—Well. 1 cannot say as to that, but somerimes there is a difference of opinion between the officials of the mine and the men. 40. Have you ever known men to leave their places in such cases ? —Yes. 41. What was the result ?—Well, nothing happened to the mine, because before the next shift went on the place was closed. 42. You have not known of cases where the men left and the place proved to be reasonably safe ? —I do not know of such cases, though there may have been such.

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Tr. n. ridb.

43. In your official capacity as check inspector, when you report a bad place is it attended to and put right ? Do they take any notice of your reports ?- -Well, of course, [am not down in the mine to see. When we draw their attention to matters, of course they promise to fix them up. Whether they actually do so Ido not know. The conditions change before we visit again. 44. Do you never make , inquiries as to whether matters are remedied ? —Sometimes. I may say it is a very curious thing that we do not always find that the complaints of the men are borne out. 1 have known occasions when complaints have been made in regard, to certain sections of the mine, and when we examine them we do not find the conditions the same as those complained of. They are not found to be as bad as we were led to believe they were. 45. How long after the inspection do you make the report ?—Probably the next day. What J wish to say is this: that I have known us to go round and find the conditions passable, and a couple of hours afterwards the men have had to go home. 46. The Chairman.'] How do you account for that ?—I account for it by the manipulation of the screens. 47. You might tell the Commission what you really inquire into and what you test for ? —Of course, we test mostly for gas. 48. Do you take air-measurements ?—We have only done so on one occasion, because we did not have an anemometer to do it with until quite recently. We certainly found sufficient air going into the mine, but it was not distributed about the faces. 49. Do you take temperatures ? —No. 50. Mr. Dowgray.~\ You thought the canvas doors had been manipulated to make the place all right during your visit ? —Yes, something had been manipulated. 51. The Chairman.] But if it were gas you were after, and the canvas was manipulated to remove it % —lt was not gas on this particular occasion; it was smoke which sent the men home. 52. Mr. Dowgray.] Smoke from what ? —From fires that were in existence in the mine. And I believe this smoke finds its way into the working-places, though I have never been unfortunate enough to come across it. 53\ The Chairman.] You have never found it % —No, care was taken about that. ■ 54. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you know anything about the number of accidents prevalent in this mine ?-■- Well, 1 know there are a good many minor accidents in this mine, and there have been two fatal accidents since I came to Kaitangata. 55. During the last twelve, months '\ —Yes. 56. Do the workmen here ever discuss the question of: baths being erected ?—The matter was discussed, and there was a ballot taken, at Kaitangata to ascertain how many men working in the mine could use the baths if they were provided, and it resulted in 121 of those who voted being willing to use them, fifty-eight unfavourable to the proposal, and there were six informal votes. 57. The Chairman.] Out of a total of how many men employed in the mine ?■ —I am not exactly sure, but the manager could tell you. 58. When was that ballot taken ?—On the 18th August, 1911. 59. Mr. Dowgray.] What is your personal opinion, of men without any practical experience working in coal-faces ? — Well, of course, in bord workings, though the men may not have had much experience on coal-faces, they may have had experience as truckers. 60. But as regards a man in charge of a face by himself ?- I believe it would be better if a, man hud a certain amount of experience before he was given charge of a face on a dangerous field of coal. 61. It has been suggested in one place where we were that a man should have two years' experience along with another man before he got charge of a place by himself ? —I would not be in favour of that being made compulsory generally, though I admit it is necessary in some places. 62. Mr. Fletcher.] Are you employed at the Kaitangata Colliery ?—No. 63. Where have you had your experience 1— -The experience I have had has been in smaller mines at Alexandra and Coal Creek. 64. The Chairman.] And they are small mines ? —Yes, comparatively small. 65. Mr. Fletcher.] Do they take pillars out in these mines ? —They were doing so in one of the mines when 1 was there. 66. The Chairman.] In regard to your inspections : you cannot accumulate your inspections ? — No, but you could go down after a week if you made it up. 67. Mr. Fletcher.'] But you can go down twelve times in the year ? —Yes, if there is a month between each inspection. 68. Then you have had no experience of pillar-workings in coal ?—No. 1 do not feel inclined to express an opinion on that subject. 69. Mr. Cochrane.] Did I understand you to say that you would give the check inspectors power to stop a place till the Inspector of Mines sees it ? —Yes, I would suggest that. 70. Would that not have a tendenc}' to relieve the management of responsibility ?—lt would have the tendency to put it on. the Inspector of Mines. 71. Or on the workmen's inspector '—Well, of course, he would have to express an opinion on it. 72. Supposing you made an inspection one day and the next there was a fatal accident there, might not the management say that you were round the day before and did not stop the place ? —1 do not consider that would relieve the management of their responsibility. Ido not think the fact of the workmen's inspector not having closed it would clear the manager in any way. 73. Not to clear him, but to relieve him to some extent of responsibility ? —Well, 1 cannot see it in that light. I have two papers here—they are the workmen's inspectors' reports on the occasions of the two fatal accidents in the Kaitangata Mine. 74. The Chairman.] Were they supplied to the company ? —Yes.

R. N. RIDD.]

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75. Are these exact copies ?—Yes, according to the Act the workmen's inspector must supply a copy to the company within twenty-four hours of his inspection. "76. Did you supply copies of these ?—Yes ; one I handed to Mr. Carson, and the other I posted to him. 77. Addressed to the manager at the registered office of the company in Kaitangata ?—I addressed it to him as manager of the Kaitangata Mine at Kaitangata. In these reports it is stated that in the opinion of the workmen's inspector the opening of the mine by wide bords is a factor which tends to make the miner's work more dangerous when he is subsequently extracting pillars, and that it was not the safest way of opening up the mine. 78. This report is signed "Edwin Rodgers." Is he a man of experience? —Yes, I.understand lie holds a deputy's certificate. William Shallish sworn and examined. (No. 27.) . 1. The Chairman.] What are you ? —A miner. 2. How many years' experience have you had ? —1 have been seven or eight years in the Kaitangata Mine. 3. Prior to that ? —I had about eight years' experience prior to that. 4. Where ? —ln Victoria. 5. Do you hold any office at the mine ?—No. T have been a roadsman. 6. Have you any office under the union ?—I am treasurer of the Otago Coal-miners' Union of Workers. 7. Are you a workmen's inspector % —No. 8. Which matters do you wish to bring before the Commission ? —I would like to speak as to the system of pillar- and head-coal extraction. I also consider that the ventilation should be better attended to. 9. As to pillar- and head-coal extraction, did you hear the evidence given last night ? —No ; 1 consider that the present method is very unsafe, and against the interests of the men, as well as against those of the management. There are absolutely no precautions taken for the safety of the men, and it is simply a matter of luck that there are not more accidents from the time the men go in. till they come out. The stone in the Kaitangata Mine is invariably very bad, and in filling coal under the stone roof it is very dangerous. The stone in the Kaitangata Mine gives no warning whatever —it is more in the nature of mud, and simply drops. It may drop in large or small pieces, and even with small pieces it is dangerous if the place is high. I consider that the roof should never be bared without leaving a cover of coal. 10. Of what thickness of coal ?—I do not consider it is safe for a man to work with it above 15 ft. or 16 ft. from the road. 11. But what thickness of coal should be left under the roof ?—lf the thickness of coal is known it should not be less than. 6 ft. thick below the stone. 12. What height would you say could be propped with reasonable safety, so as to win as much coai as is consistent with safety ? —Well, you cannot prop with any success much above 8 ft. ; but if you have perhaps 5 ft. of solid coal on each side of you the coal would be in a state to give you warning as to loosening, and you would always know the state of the roof. You should be able to reach it with a pick or stick. 13. What system would you suggest ?—That they should drive with narrow bords, and that a solid strip should be left on the outside of the pillars. The coal should not be taken out as at the present time. There are perhaps six or eight shovels working in a line, and the noise prevents you from hearing anything that is taking place. You have to ask the men to stop work, and by the time they do so the noise is over and the warning is lost. That happens perhaps a few times, and the men get more careless, with the result that they take more risk than they should ; whereas, if each pair of men were kept to themselves by a strip of coal being left on the outside, it would give them more quiet, and enable them to detect signs of an impending fall. 14. Have you any other suggestion to make ? —I would also like to say that 1 consider that underviewers and deputies should have more responsibility than they take at the present time. They seem to be totally devoid of responsibility. The men have to examine the places for themselves. A short time ago —on the 31st August, to be exact —I was passed into a place which had been examined by a deputy, who told me that there was plenty of coal there, and all the stone had been taken out. I thought that was rather too good to be true. I went in and examined the place myself, and found that over where 1 was supposed to be filling there was a mass of coal and stone hanging with 18 in. or 2 ft. broken away from the roof, and under that there was 4 ft. of coal hanging. There was nothing to prevent the lot of it falling on any person working there. As a matter of fact, it fell in two hours afterwards. 1 sent for the deputy, and he said that he had not time to attend to it just then, but he would be back in half an hour. He also told me I was not working in my right place, that I had no right to be where I was, and that further in was my place. I told him I was willing to work further in if he would get me a trucker. 15. We cannot go into a dispute of that nature. You think that a deputy should have more experience ? —He should have more responsibility, and he should have the experience necessary to enable him to tell a man about his place. It was impossible for me to reach the place, because it was so high. The trucker said he would not go underneath it, and the deputy sent us home. It seems that his responsibility is not defined. 16. What remedy would you suggest ?—That there should be more competent men in the mine to be able to take these head-coal places under their supervision, and all work in them should be under their direction. Where there are dangerous places precautions should be taken to see that the men do not go underneath them.

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[W. BHALIJSH.

17. Have you any further suggestions to make ?—No, I do not think so. 18. You said you wished to say something on the subject of ventilation ?—I cannot speak with any experience on ventilation matters, but at the present time there is a large amount of the air going into the Kaitangata Mine which goes to waste by reason of the lack of attention to the bratticing in the mine. The brattieing works loose, and the air escapes. If unused airways were blocked with board stoppings it would be better. T also think that the air that is coming from the working-places should not be allowed to mix with the pure air in the mine ; it should be taken away straight to the surface. Further. I consider that stentons are not driven close enough together. There are long distances between them now. They should not be more than 60 ft. apart, and the air should be taken into the places by bratticing. 19. What injurious effects result from the present system ? —lt tends to allow the gas to accumulate in the face when the stentons are so far apart, because there is no draw on the air. 20. Mr. Dowgray.] I think you said, in answer to the Chairman, when describing what happened on the 31st August, that the deputy told you it was not your place : who told you it was ? —The underviewer, when he passed me in, and the deputy afterwards said I had no right there. As a matter of fact, it was my place. 21. For what reason do you suggest that 5 ft. or 6 ft. of coal should be left under the roof ? —lt would prevent the stone from falling : and, in addition to that, the coal would always give warning, while the stone does not. 22. Your reason, then, is that the coal gives warning ?— Yes. 23. Have you worked in the Castle Hill Mine ?—Yes. 24. What is your opinion of that second outlet ? —The second outlet at the present time is simply an outlet for air, and not an outlet for men. The men would be a considerable time before they could get there. Then, again, .there is no one on the top to take any notice of signals from below, f think the means provided are rather primitive for hoisting and lowering men. 25. The Chairman.] Is there any telephone near the shaft to communicate with the men ?—No : I believe there was a wire hanging there, but I think it has been destroyed. 26. Is there a man constantly kept on top ?—No. 27. Supposing the men were driven there from the mine and could not get back, is there any means of communicating from the bottom of the shaft to the surface, assuming that the communication was cut off internally ? —No, unless there has been some means put up very recently. The only communication that was there was the wire that went up the shaft. 28. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you ever seen this apparatus working % —I have seen it, but 1 have never examined it. I have seen some tanks with some water in them. T believe the water is to go into the buckets to balance the men. 29. Are you aware that there are provisions in the Act which require that that apparatus should be tested every three months in the presence of some one appointed by the workmen ?—No, and I have never known of that being done. It has certainly not been done during the last twelve months, and probably not during the last, two years. 30. You do not think it has been tested in the presence of a representative of the workmen ?—-No. 31. Are you aware that there is such a clause in the Coal-mines Act ?—No. 32. Is there any dissatisfaction at Castle Hill in connection with that mine being ventilated by a furnace instead of by a fan % —Yes, I have at times heard the matter mentioned by the men, who have said that the furnace was a very unsatisfactory method of ventilating the mine. 33. The Chairman.'] Have the men made any representations in regard to that matter ? —Not to my knowledge. 34. Mr. Dowgray.] What method do they adopt in this mine for relighting the lamps when they go out I—As1 —As a rule, if your lamp goes out, I believe you are supposed to go to the lamp-room and get it relit; but that is an impossibility. You give it to the trucker to take out, but, as a rule, you do not see it again—not even the next day. It is mentioned to you that you did not bring out your lamp, and they find you another one. You must borrow one from a man who has two. 35. Are you not held responsible for your lamp '( —No, I do not think the management hold you responsible for it, though they expect you to take all care. 36. Can you suggest any improvement on the present system I —Well, it could easily be improved if the men were not allowed to use each other's lamps, and if the lamps sent out were returned more expeditiously. Ido not know why they are not returned. I cannot see why they should not be sent in again, say, in twenty minutes after being sent out. There is always communication between the lamp-cabin and the other places of the mine. 37. You suggested that a strip of coal should be left: would the company lose more coal under that system than they do at present ?—No, I think they would lose less. At the present time twothirds of the coal is lost. At a place where 1 was recently working 1 do not think there was onehundredth part of the coal filled away; the remainder was all buried. 38. Have you seen any places worked here where a strip of coal has been left ?—Yes, in the late Mr. Jordan's time. 39. Was that satisfactory ? —Yes, it was safer than the present method. 40. What sanitary arrangement have you in these mines ?—There are none. 41. What method do the men adopt ?—They go into the first place that is handy. 42. Does that cause an offensive smell ?—- Yes ; it also causes a great deal of dissatisfaction amongst the men working near the airway. 43. The Chairman.] Is it not a return airway which is used ? —No, sometimes they use the travel-ling-roads when they are deserted.

a—4.

W. BHALLIBH.I

44. Mr. Dowgray.] They use the first convenient place they can find ?—Yes. I think it would be a simple matter to have small places dug out and filled in afterwards. Of course, all the men would have to be educated up to using those places. 45. How far would the men have to travel to get into the main return ?—I cannot say. I have not worked there during the last ten or twelve months. 46. Are there not men working close to the shaft I —Yes. 47. So that you could hardly go into the return airway without vitiating the air ?—No, it would be impossible. 48. It passes from one section to the other ?—Yes. 49. Mr. Cochrane.] As to the deputies having more responsibility, what duties would you add to those already specified in the Special Rules ?—lf the Special Rules were thoroughly carried out by conscientious men it would meet the case. 50. Then, you say the men consider the furnace unsatisfactory : is that in regard to possible ignitions of gas, or in regard to the amount of air which circulates ? —I think the main thing is the possible ignition of gas. If the furnace was going well there is a large amount of air travelling at Castle Hill, but the practice is to let the fires go down at night and the men find the places dull. 51. Where there is a fan used is it kept going at night I—Yes, there are shifts working all the time. 52. Mr. Reed.] In reply to Mr. Dowgray you said that the men used the first convenient place they could find for the deposition of excreta, to the disadvantage of one another : is that not the men's own fault ?—Yes, to a great extent; but wherever they might go the same thing obtains. They could hardly find a place in the mine where other men would not be affected. 53. Cannot you get into the return airways ? —There are no return airways. 54. But I went through one in the Castle Hill Mine ? —That might be. 55. Cannot you use dust as a deodorant % —Yes, but the men will not use it. 56. But is that not their own fault % —Possibly so ; but I think it would be better to have small latrines. 57. It appears that the men's complaint is against one another ? —Undoubtedly ; it is against every one concerned. Neil McKenzib sworn and examined. (No. 28.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you I—A miner. 2. With how many years' experience ? —About ten years and a half. 3. In Kaitangata ? —Five years in Kaitangata. 4. Prior to that ?—At Shag Point, and Lovell's Flat, and Mount Somers. 5. Do you hold any position in the mine ?—No. 6. Or under the union ? —No, not at the present time. 7. You are not a workmen's inspector % —No, but I have been. 8. What matters do you wish to bring before this Commission ?—Well, the general working of the Kaitangata Mine. 9. In what respect ? —Pillar- and head-coal working and ventilation. 10. You heard the last witness ? —Yes. 11. Do you agree with him % —Yes, in regard to the matter of pillar- and head-coal working. 12. Have you anything to add to what he said in regard to that matter ?—No, I could not very well add anything to his remarks. He said he would like to see up to 6 ft. of coal left on the stone roof. I say it depends on the quality of the coal left, because there are some places where we are working where the coal is very rotten and full of what we call " sooty backs." Ido not think that 6 ft. of coal would hold them. 13. What do you suggest % —Of course, you could hardly make provision for them. My opinion is that the head coal should be worked to a certain height and no higher—to a height where the men could look after the roof. Under the present system of work we have a place up to 30 ft. When trie deputy comes in with a flashlight you can see it. He comes in perhaps on one day, and not perhaps again for a week. You are provided with a long stick to sound the roof, but we cannot sound it at that height. 14. There are no means of seeing it ?—No, except with an electric torch which can be flashed on the roof. 15. Have you any further suggestions on that point ? —I think that if bords were driven narrower it would be better. They should drive their bords about 6 ft. or 8 ft. wide, and timber them thoroughly so as to make provision for taking out the pillar and head coal afterwards. They could get most of the coal with very little danger to the men, and without going so high as they do. I think if the company were satisfied to get a fair quantity of coal with safety to the men, and not require them to run so many risks, things would be a great deal better for both sides. 16. Is there any other matter you wish to bring before the Commission I—ln1 —In regard to ventilation I agree with the previous witness, and have said that stentons should be driven more regularly than they are at present, and 'that the management should not rely so much on carrying the air in by brattices and letting the air come in on its own. The men would then get more air. Last quarter I was working in a place where the Commission went through yesterday. , Instead of driving stentons to thoroughly ventilate it the management carried the air in with brattices, with the result that we did not get the benefit of the air, though certainly the air itself was not bad. Towards the end of the quarter it carried a little gas. We would have been working in good air if they had driven stentons and done away with the brattice.

14—C. 4.

C.-—4.

[N. MCKENZIE.

17. Have you anything to say on the sanitary question 1— As far as the Kaitangata Mine is concerned there are no sanitary appliances. I think that the management could very easily arrange places where the men could go —out-of-the-way places, say one in each section, so that it would not be a nuisance to the workmen. 18. You heard what the other witnesses had to say about the present practice : do you agree with them ? —I hardly agree with the previous witness, although he may have seen more of it than I did. My experience is that the men usually try to get into a place which is finished. They do not go into a place where the men are travelling. One of the Commissioners asked a witness whether they used the return airway. Well, it is very difficult to say what is the return airway in the Kaitangata Mine. The men are working to within a few feet of the shaft, and they have to utilize the air there. I have heard of some cases, and have known of them too, where a nuisance was caused through the men going into the air-courses, but men generally try to go into other places. 19. But you think conveniences ought to be provided I—Yes. 20. Mr. Dowgray.] That bears out previous witnesses' contention that what may be an old bord to-day may be a working-place to-morrow ? —Yes. 21. Have you had any experience on men being sent into places which were considered dangerous ? —Yes. I remember one case in particular where two of us were working two or three years ago. We considered it unsafe, and we objected to work in it, and told the deputy so when he came round. He stopped the place. It was stopped three or four days, and the coal fell down. 22. The Chairman.'] If there is a disagreement between the deputy and. the men, cannot you go to the manager ? —We have the right to go to the manager if the deputy considers the place, safe and we think it unsafe, but the manager generally takes the deputy's opinion. 23. Is the deputy not held responsible for the safety of the working-places ?—As far as I know. 24. Mr. Cochrane.'] I think you said you would suggest a given height , for the working in pillars ? —I consider that they should work them a regulation height and go no higher. 25. What should that height be fixed at ?—About 15 ft. or 16 ft. The men should always have the chance of sounding the roof. 26. Would that height not depend on the different classes of coal ? —I should not think so. 27. You would make it the same in a strong place as in a place with soft coal ? —The men would have to sound the place if it were strong as well as if it were soft. Where you cannot get up to the roof or prop it, the only thing you can rely on for safety is the sounding. George Clark sworn and examined. (No. 29.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ?—Assistant storeman at the Kaitangata Mine. 2. What is it you wish to refer to % —I wish to explain how the explosives are given out. We have difierent-sized tins, of which I produce samples [produced]. They hold from sixteen to twenty plugs. Each man has his shots put in these tins. They generally get through from two to four shots, or twenty plugs—that is the maximum. The caps are rolled in paper, and served out in one of these tins. 3. Do you ever question the men as to whether they have used all those shots on that particular shift or not I—No.1 —No. They do not tell me how long the supply I give them will last, or whether they are going to use it all to-day or to-morrow. I keep a record of all explosives which go out. 4. Mr. Fletcher.] When the men come to you for explosives you expect that they will not take more than sufficient for that day \ —l cannot say that. They simply say they want four or five shots. I have heard them say, " I will not come-back till to-morrow." 5. The Chairman.] Have the men not been impressed with the fact that they must not take more than one day's supply, or do you think they do not know ? —I do not know. 6. Is there any obligation on the storeman not to supply any more than a certain quantity ? — Yes, 5 lb. is the maximum. Ido not give them more than half. Sometimes they get 2 lb. 7. So far as you are concerned, the supply to one man never exceeds half the maximum ?—That is so. 8. You do not inquire when they are going to use them ? —No. 9. How do the men work : do they work with mates ?—Yes, two men work together. 10. If the men on the night shift take down explosives, do the men on the next shift""take some more ?—Yes. 11. Are they mates with the men on the previous shift ? —I cannot say. 12. You do not take a record of the supply for the different places ?• —No, only as to the quantity served out to the men. 13. Mr. Reed.] Are you aware of the law on the subject ?—Yes, sir. 14. It states that more explosives than is required for one shift shall not be taken intojthe mine during that shift: are you aware of that I —Yes. 15. But just now you gave us an instance of the law being broken ? —I understand that it is for the day's supply. I believe what the men say. 16. Is it not the storeman's duty to stop at the maximum quantity ? Are you instructed by the management in the matter ? —The manager showed me the Coal-mines Act, and told me of the provision. 17. Mr. Carson gave you an instruction to carry out the law I—He showed me the Act, and I took that as the instruction. 18. Mr. Dowgray.] Mr. Carson has never specially instructed the men not to take in more than one day's supply ? —No, he only showed me the Act. 19. Is there not a very bad road to that magazine ? —lt is greasy. 20. Do not the men grumble about it I—Yes,1 —Yes, I have heard them grumble, but some men will grumble at anything.

C.-4

TtoBERT Lee. .Tun., sworn and examined. (No. 30.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your position ?—I am engineer to the company and acting general manager at the present time. 2. What matters do you wish to refer to ?—Well, if the Commission cares to hear me, 1 will explain our intentions in connection with this new seam we are opening up, and the proposed method of working it. We have already put in a drive connecting with the seam, and we are now putting in a large drive to act as a main drive for the new mine. This, of course, will be an intake, and the present prospectingdrive that has been put in is to act as a return airway. The company intends to ventilate this new mine by means of a Sirocco fan capable of putting through over 80,000 cubic feet of air per minute. 3. How many men will be working there ?—lt is hard to say at the present time. The object of this new mine is to increase our output, and we wish to try and do all the work at Kaitangata in one shift drawing coal. It is hard to say yet what will be the number of men. When this new mine is properly opened up we are in hopes of being able to connect with the present mine in the neighbourhood of No. 21 dip, and when that is done we will be able to work the coal towards the mouth of the mine and leave all the worked-out country behind us. That is an advantage in regard to safe working. 4. Mr. Reed.] To the new mine at Kaitangata ?—To what we call the Kaitangata No. 2. I would mention that the drive we put in as a prospecting-drive will be the return airway, and we intend to make it a travelling-way as well for the men. Of course, under our present regulations no man is allowed to travel in the roadway without the permission of the management. Kef erring to ventilation, we are now negotiating for a new electric installation for the Kaitangata Mine to drive the fan. The object is to have an up-to-date, electric plant, so as to have a margin of power for the present fan to increase the output of air. 5. The Chairman.] With regard to Castle Hill, have you any plans as to the ventilation of that mine \ —Nothing definite has been decided in regard to that. 6. There is a suggestion that the ventilation may be a source of danger in regard to the gas ?— We have not gone into that. 7. You are speaking from the engineering point of view, and not from the underground-working point of view ?—Yes. 8. Are you in a position to offer any opinion as to pillar methods % You are not a mine-manager ? No, I am not the mine-manager, and I would not care to make any remarks about that, except to say that, as far as I know, during the last six years there has been only one fatal accident in connection with the working of the pillars, and none of the other accidents have been due to pillar-workings. I might also mention, in connection with this new mine, that it will ultimately be connected with the Kaitangata Mine, and this will give us a third outlet for both mines. There will be three distinct outlets. 9. As the mine is at present laid out is it sufficiently easy for the men to find their way now to the outlets if danger arose 1— Yes, the mine is provided with fingerboards showing the men in which direction to go to find the airway. These are always kept so that they can be seen by men passing along. 10. Is there any other matter you wish-to refer to ?—I do not think so. I just wished to explain our intentions in connection with this new work. 11. Mr. Dowgray.] I would like to know if you are sure that there are sufficient fingerboards pointing the way to the escape-shafts I —Yes, I think there are sufficient. 12. Have you been down there lately ? —I have not been down during the last month or so ; but 1 understand the management always keeps these notices so that they may be seen. Certainly, when I was down they were there, so that in passing by you could see them. 13. Did your company not intend two years ago to replace that furnace with a fan ? —Well, I cannot say. My present connection with the company is only since May.of last year, and lam not prepared to say what was done before that. 14. During your time they have not discussed it ? —No, there has not been anything definite discussed. 15. You have nothing to do with the internal management of the mine ?—No; Mr. Carson is the manager, and he is responsible for the underground working. Alexander Ferguson sworn and examined. (No. 31.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ?—A miner. 2. With what experience ? —About twenty years. 3. Where ? —The Kaitangata Mine for ten years. 4. Prior to that % —ln Scotland for ten years. 5. What matter do you wish to bring before the Commission % —I would like to bring forward the matter of using electric torches in these high places. I think it would be a very big improvement if they were used. You would see any breaks in the roof and sides where you cannot see them with the ordinary safety-lamp. I have used one down in the mine, and I think their use in these high seams should be made compulsory. I would compare the two lights with a field-glass and the naked eye. At sea, looking at an object with the naked eye is like looking at the roof in a mine with the ordinary safetylamp, and looking through a field-glass at sea is like looking at the roof in the mine with the aid of an electric torch. 6. If the height of the place were reduced to 15 ft., would that not meet the case I—Well,1 —Well, of course, if that were done, the torch would not be required ; but if it is not done the torches should be used. With places 25 ft. high you are groping about in the dark. 7. You mean an electric lamp in addition to the safety-lamp I—Yes.1 —Yes. 8. Who would provide these electric torches ?—I think the company should provide them. 9. But you think they would not be needed if the pillars were reduced to 15 ft. I —Yes. that would make all the difference. If you can see the roof you would not require these electric torches.

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Edwin Ridley Gkeen sworn and examined. (No. 32.) 1. The Chairman.] You are the Inspector of Mines for this district ? —Yes. 2. We wish to ask you some questions generally in the method of working the Kaitangata Mine. You have heard what the witnesses have said in regard to the present system of pillar-working. Will you give the Commission your opinion of that system, and whether you think it safe or whether a safer system could be adopted ?—Well, sir, to begin with, the evidence is practically new to me, and it would certainly require some consideration for me to be able to give you an opinion of any value. You ask. me as to the safety of working in these high places, and I wish to point out that the accident list from these high places in this mine is an extremely small one. The accidents have come almost entirely from the low parts of the roof. Giving a superficial opinion, it depends to a large extent upon the nature of the coal in the roof as to whether it should be a low roof or a high roof for safety. It sometimes happens that in low seams the roof is worse than those in high ones. Generally speaking, the conglomerate is present in high roofs of from 25 ft. to 30 ft. and takes a long time to fall. The nature of the working in bringing down the coal from these high places is such that the coal is generally dropped in large quantities —sometimes hundreds of tons are brought down. The workmen are on top of this high coal and have the advantage of knowing this roof. They discuss the nature of the roof, too, with us, and when we get their opinion it is most valuable. In any case, where the roof is bad more care is taken. This mine has been working for over forty years. The same variations in the roof exist as have been present throughout all that period. 3. Is it the same system of working ? —To a certain extent it is ; the present system is better than the previous one. 4. As far as your experience goes, is it the best system that could be adopted I —lt has stood the test of time so far, though it has been in vogue for only a few years. They had another method before. There is one factor which the management have to consider most carefully, and that is that this mine is so liable to spontaneous ignition, which is liable to produce uncomfortable conditions of working. There are so many surrounding features that I would like more time to express an opinion. 5. Do you exercise any control over the method of working, as to whether it shall be one system or another ? —lf I thought the system a bad one I should certainly exercise my influence to have it altered. 6. Do you think the Act gives you sufficient power, or would you suggest that you should be given any more specific powers ? —I have not found any difficulty in enforcing anything so far. 7. But we are here to inquire into any possible defects. As an inspector, if you had more definite powers to interfere in the matter of systems of working would it be better % —Would you allow me to take that question down and give a written answer later ? 8. Yes, it is a matter in which the Commission, I think, would be glad of your opinion ?—Very well, I will endeavour to asist you by every means in my power. 9. You see we are prepared to accept any suggested amendment or improvement in the Act which would give you greater powers in carrying out your duties. For instance, with regard to summary power to prosecute for certain offences. Perhaps you may find certain conditions existing which you may have to report to Wellington, and by the time you are able to prosecute the conditions may have so changed that your charge may be difficult to prove ; whereas if you had summary powers of prosecution it would be a big lever in your hands. We are quite prepared to receive any suggestion on such matters, though it does not follow that they will be adopted ?—Well, a suggestion sounds very well, but we are a law-abiding community, and I find it very seldom necessary to take proceedings. It might be done in minor matters, but I would like to have the cases decided before a Magistrate as already provided. 10. You consider that if you had a summary power of prosecution given to you the proceedings should be taken before a Magistrate and not before a Justice of the Peace ?—Yes, I would have the wording put that way. 11. Now, with regard to the furnace shaft and the apparatus there for raising men in the Castle Hill Mine, will you give us your opinion of that ? —Yes, I never liked it, and do not like it now. The management has been aware of that, and also the union. We had an official trial some three of four years ago, when we were all present —the executive of the union, the management, and myself and Mr. Mclntosh, late Inspector of Mines. The trial consisted of lowering and raising men. After working with the water for a time the president and secretary of the union, the mine-manager, and Mr. Mclntosh went down and came up again. 12. You did not go ? —No, though I was prepared to do so. They came up rather wet, as the rope stretched, as all new ropes will, but they canrg up all right, as the men are alive to tell the tale. 13. But that is only an emergency plant: as such, what have you to say about it ? —I would rather have a steam winch. 14. You have heard what one witness had to say with regard to signalling ?—Well, there is a telephone from the surface to underground and vice versa. 15. But could you not have a telephone from the bottom of the shaft ? —Yes, that is a fair suggestion. 16. Supposing the way to that dip were cut off ? —Yes, it would be an additional safeguard to have a telephone connected with the bottom of the shaft. 17. What have you to say with regard to the suggestion as to the furnace there in that return airway I—The fact is that this mine for a number of years has only been worked intermittently. It has only been worked in order to keep it in repair. It has been an adjunct to the main mine. It has never been taken seriously in regard to output either by the company or the union. The company has been put to a great expenditure. One does not like to overburden them with expense, but if they are going to employ thirty-four men down there, as they were doing the other day, I must consider it.

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18. Ido not mean it as a dangerous mine, but as a gassy mine ? There was a dumb drift, but if any one can stow me where a large quantity of gas is going to come from in this mine, I would say, " Stop the furnace." 19. In the course of your inspection have you come across what you consider to be a sufficient number of fingerposts, or would you recommend further fingerposts to indicate the way to those emergency outlets ? —Yes, we have had them a long time, and, as is the case underground, they do not last long. We tried calico, but it perishes ; and then we tried tin, and that became clouded and it did not last long. We have had as many as two dozen. I certainly agree that if the men do not know the places more notices should be provided, and erected more frequently. 20. Supposing, instead of putting up branch indicators, you had a special indicator put up near the entrance to the mine, stating that the way to the return is indicated by this particular kind of notice —you might make it any shape you like—and then the men would know that wherever they saw that sort of sign, it was the way to the outlet ? —We have those indicators —we have chalk and fingerposts pointing which direction to take. 21. 1 understand that the lettering gets destroyed. Suppose you had a particular kind of indicator, you would not want lettering at all except on the general notice to say that that particular sign pointed the way to the outlet ?—Well, our tracks are blazed just as well as they are in any bush. 22. You heard the men say that explosives have been kept in the mine : has your attention ever been drawn to that practice at all ? —No, not in the way I have heard it put here. Of course, I usually see to the tins, but it is news to me that explosives are left in the mine overnight. On looking at paragraph (c) of subsection (2) of section 40 of the Coal-mines Act, I think this practice is not actually prohibited. It reads, "It shall not be taken for use into the workings of the mine except in quantities actually required during the shift.' . Well, if a man gets four shots from the storeman and only requires to use two, the Act does not say he shall take the other two shots out again. 23. You suggest that a provision to that effect should be put in ?—Yes, I think that would be a very welcome addition to this part of the Act. Of course, if a man takes in four shots he may expect to use them ; circumstances may arise which might cause him not to use them. 24. You would suggest that all unused explosives should be returned by the man who took them out I—Either1 —Either that or else the men on the second shift should not be allowed to take any down. Another suggestion was that a store should be built underground to keep the explosives in. That is a good suggestion. It is awkward for the men to carry the explosives out again. A small storage magazine underground would meet the case, I think. 25. Who would have charge of that ?—There would have to be provision made to have another man in charge of it. I would, however, like to point out that we have had no accidents from the misuse of explosives during the last twelve years, which shows the care that is taken by all concerned, management and men alike. 26. Mr. Cochrane.] There are one or two questions 1 wish to ask you, as the management is not giving any evidence. What is your opinion of leaving 5 ft. or 6 ft. of head coal ? —Well, at what height from the floor do you mean ? 27. As suggested by the witnesses ?—Five feet from the floor or 20 ft. ? 28. In high places ? —At what height from the floor ? 29. Assume any height ? —What sort of a question is that to ask a man ? 30. Say 15 ft. from the floor I —Well, 15 ft. is a very high roof to prop, and I do not believe in unsupported coal. I would rather have unsupported good rock than unsupported coal. 31. Then do I understand you do not favour the suggestion of the witnesses ?—ln answer to the Chairman, I thought 1 made it plain that I am asking to have a little time to consider this sort of question. 32. Then, as to the furnace, did you hear the witness say that the air was dull in the morning through the fire not being kept going 1 Can you tell us how long before the men go in is the fire seen to ? —Not actually, but 1 think the furnaceman generally goes in a couple of hours earlier than the other men. 33. Mr. Dowgray.] In connection with the furnace, you know clauses 55 and 56 of Special Rules —How do you interpret that ?—" The furnaceman shall constantly keep clean, brisk fires " ; and " The ventilating furnace or apparatus shall not be left either day or night without the order of the manager." 34. How do you interpret that ? In a mine which is ventilated by a furnace, has the furnace to ■be kept going all the time ? —Yes —" constantly*keeping clean, brisk fires." ; . 35. Does it not convey to you that furnaces must be kept going all the time ? —Yes, where a large number of men are employed. 36. You know that this furnace is allowed to die out ?—lt is banked up. 37. At the week-ends it is rekindled ? —My attention has never been drawn to it by any person. 38. Do you think that furnace ought to be kept going all the time % —Well, all the men must be supplied with air. When we were there there was more air going down than is required by the Act. 39. But is there not danger of an explosion in a mine giving off gases ?—Yes, but it is a magnificent furnace. 40. The Chairman.] Would you recommend that a provision be inserted in the Act that it be left in the hands of the Inspector to say whether any particular system of ventilation ought to be kept going ? At present under the Act you have no control over that. Do you consider you have sufficient power to compel the management to run a fan the whole twenty-four hours I—l1 —I think a special rule to that effect would be better. 41. Mr. Dowgray.] When 1 visited that furnace I came into contact with a cloth fire-notice about 10 yards back from the furnace ? —That is a proper thing. ~:

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42. Is the fire not a naked light %■ —But if that notice were not there the men would walk right into the body of the workings with naked lights. 43. How does the extent of the workings during the last twelve months compare withjthe previous period ? —I am surprised to find it going on. It is like a lame duck, as it were. It is just to save property. The main drive may be required some day. 44. But the workings have extended since two years ago I —Yes, I believe the management did not expect to get the coal which they found in No. 7 dip, but they are on pillars, which will not j last very long. 45. I would like to ask you if two years ago —on the 16th October, 1909 —in your annual report to the Department you stated that the furnace was inadequate and incapable of overcoming the increased drag, and that the company purposed putting in a fan % —That was the outcome of a conversation with the general manager. Mr. Lee is a very active-minded man. I could give you a hundred dates when we discussed all manner of things—for instance, there was the suggestion that the Castle Hill and Kaitangata Mines should be connected. 46. But in your report to the Department you say that the furnace was incapable of overcoming the increased drag, and that it was proposed to install a fan. Now you admit the air has increased and the drag must be greater, but still the fan has not been installed % —Yes ; but it would be like putting new leather on an old boot. There are many men here who are anxious to work in that mine, and if you tried to force the company to put in a fan the mine would be stopped to-morrow. 47. Do you know that subsections (20) to (25) of section 40 are not carried out in these mines, especially those referring to special exits. Take, for instance, the furnace shaft: the Act requires that a test shall be made every three months with twice the weight of the ordinary load, and the chain is not to be a single-linked chain % —But this is not a shaft for raising persons. 48. It is a place where the men are lowered or raised—it is a place of escape % —ls the latter part of that subsection complied with, which requires a representative of the miners to be there at the tests ? 49. I asked that question, and the workmen say " No " ? —lf you take the engineer s report-book you will find that the apparatus is examined and reported on. 50. The Chairman.} Have you seen it ? —Yes, I see and note the entries. 51. And as to the other parts of the mine—the ordinary working-places—you see them and satisfy yourself that they are tested properly I—Yes.1 —Yes. This mine is heavily staffed with engineers and officials, who are required to report in books regularly kept for the purpose. 52. Mr. Dowgrayj\ You say you disapproved of that apparatus. I ask you if, on the occasion of the trial to which you referred, you did not say you wanted a meeting of the men held to approve of it? —I did. I wanted their opinion ; but I have not received it to this day. 53. Yet you said you disapproved it ? —I said I did not like it. 54. The Chairman.] Would you suggest that these sections of the Act should be made applicable to emergency outlets of that kind ?—Yes, for this reason : that if that were done it would be giving protection for all. The mine-owner would then know what he had to face. Under the Act as it stands, if a new shaft is about to be opened the Inspector has no say in the matter. 55. Would you consider it reasonable that, before the management of a property decided on a new scheme such as this present shaft, a plan of it should be submitted to you for approval ?—I think that would be a good idea ; but it should go to some one in authority —say, to the Minister, not necessarily to the Inspector. 56. Mr. Dowgray.] But the company knows what they have to face ? —Well, that is debatable, according to the Chairman. If a man is going to construct a dam on a goldfield, the plans have to be forwarded to Wellington for approval. Similarly, it would be a great advantage if the plans of mineshafts were also submitted. 57. And also as to proposed methods of ventilation, and so on ?—Yes. 58. You said that no up-to-date mine would install a furnace ? —Not in our mines. 59. There is nothing to prevent them doing so ?—Not at the present time ; but there are several mines where furnaces have gone out and fans have been put in. 60. Would you suggest that furnaces should be prohibited in gassy mines ?—Well, that would come under what we have just been discussing—the submission of plans to the Department. 61. Can a man judge a bad roof when the stone is in a very large body ? You said you preferred the stone to the coal I —Yes, a good hard stone I prefer to any coal. 62. The stone would perhaps seem hard, and yet be bad if it were in a large body ?—I said that the mine has been working for so many years that the men have become skilled in the examination of the roof. 63. But you said the present method of extracting pillars has been employed for only a year or two I —Yes ; but the old mine had been closed for twenty or twenty-five years, and we went in four or five years ago, and the roof was as hard as possible, though it had been standing all that time. 64. Is it not the duty of the deputy to pass the men in ? —Yes. 65. And is it not the men's duty to examine the roof also ? —Yes. 66. Well, how is a man going to examine the. roof so high after he has filled a great deal of that coal away I—They1—They have long rods and ladders. 67. The Chairman.] What is your opinion of the suggestion of the use of the electric torch?- —It is a very good suggestion. 68. Mr. Dowgray.] Is there any great danger in a man reaching up with a pole to examine the roof ? —Of course, there is danger in all walks of life. 69. Is it satisfactory % —Yes, it has proved so. 70. You heard Mr. Crow say that in less than ten minutes after we left his place yesterday the whole place collapsed ? —Yes. Was that the witness who said Mr. McAlister had said it was as safe as a rock ?

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71. Yes?— Well, I suggest Mr. McAlister should be examined on that point. While I am here there are one or two matters I would like to mention. They may be considered trifling, but I think them important. There is a large amount of public attention drawn to this mine from time to time. Of course, this mine is liable to an accumulation of gases, the most dangerous being white damp. We have found small percentages present from time to time. With a view to examining this mine for gas. during the last two years I have cultivated white mice for testing the air, and yet I find in travelling in the mine that there' are mice actually living there without having been introduced. That shows that there cannot be so much foul air there. A mouse will die in air where a man could work. That is one point in regard to the conditions in the mine. Not that we are going to relax our attention, but it shows that care is paid to the matter of ventilation, which is proved by the fact that these little, animals can live there.

Dunedin Courthouse. —29th September, 1911. William Hollows sworn and examined. (No. 33.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you ?—A coal-miner. 2. With how many years' experience ?—Twenty-nine years. 3. Where ?■—ln the Denniston Mine at Westport. in the Brunnerton Mine at Greymouth, and at Shag Point and Allandale in Otago. 4. Where are you working at present ? —ln Christie's No. 2 Mine. 5. Do you hold any position in the mine ? —No. 6. Do you hold any office in the union ?—I am secretary of the Green Island branch of the union. 7. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission ?—I wish to speak on ventilation and the causes of accidents. 8. What have you to say as to ventilation I—l may say at the outset that m nearly all the matters which I shall bring forward as requiring amendment, in the Act I have been appointed to do so on behalf of the union, as representing the miners generally at Green Island. 9. How many miners are there in your union I—From1 —From seventy to eighty. 10. Have you discussed these matters with the members ? — Yes, with the members and the executive. . 11. And the points upon which you will speak have been unanimously agreed upon by the union f— Yes ' 12. Then let us have your statement ?—-We consider, first of all, that fans should constantly be kept going whilst the men are on shift. 13. That is in cases where the ventilation is provided by a fan, or do you mean that tans should be always employed ?-—We advocate that fans should be always employed as against furnaces. 14. But as against natural ventilation ?—The fan is the better method of ventilating mines. With them there is less danger from fire. 15. And you consider that the system of ventilation, whatever it is, should be kept constantly going ?—Yes, at least while the men are working. 16. And when the men are off shift ?—lt would certainly be better if the fans were constantly kept going to keep the mine clear of impurities. We consider that the fan should be started from two to four hours at least before the shift goes on. That is, in the event of the fan being stopped when the day's work is done, it should be started from two to four hours before the men proceed to work again, to clear the. faces We advocate also that all airways should be at least 5 ft. or 6 ft. in width and height. We consider that the method of ventilation should be strong enough with a low velocity to prevent gob fires in mines. We are of opinion also that the air should be taken direct to the return. In one of the mines in this district they have an oil-pump, the fumes from which mix with the air going in and travel round the working-places, and we think that those fumes should be taken direct to the return. In cases of fires double stoppings should be put in where the fires are close to where the men are working. These stoppings should be built of brick, and packed in with sand and clay. The idea is to keep the fumes from mixing with the air which the men have to breathe. In some instances this has been done, but formerly they put up bags and boards, with the result that there was a certain amount of leakage. These matters are not always attended to as they should be. The next point I have to mention is a very important one : it is that we consider that the air should sweep round the faces where the men are working The Act should be amended to state definitely that the prescribed quantity of air should be supplied to the men where they are working. At the present time the Act is very vague on the point. 117 Do you want the whole of the air to pass through the whole of the workings '—-There should be. sufficient air to allow the men to work comfortably. What we want is a proper volume of air. 18 But that is not my question. Do you consider that the air should travel right round the whole of the places or that there should be splits ?— Yes, certainly, there should be different splits to serve different districts. With regard to the ventilation question, we advocate surprise visits by the Inspector. I may say that the miners at Green Island are under the impression that the management knows in every instance when the Inspector is coming, though they are not prepared to prove it We think it would be better for the health of the miners if these visits were made by surprise, and also if the check inspectors were able to make surprise visits. We think it would tend to make a manager who is lax in his duties more attentive. We consider also that copies of the check inspectors reports should be sent to the Department and not to the manager. 19. Do you mean to the Mines Department or to the Inspector ?—To the Inspector and not to the manager.

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20. Why not to both ? —Our reason is that if the management is not aware of the nature of the report sent in by the check inspectors it would have a tendency to make him look after the conditions of the mine better than if he saw the report if it stated that matters were all right. He would not know what is coming. With the assistance of the Government Inspector the management knows when his mine is going to be examined. It seems that the inspection is too open at the present time. We also advocate an amendment in subsection (4) of section 40 of the Coal-mines Act, dealing with manholes on horse-roads. At the present time, unless there is an output of over 10 tons an hour along these roads, no manholes aTe necessary. In the Green Island district there is a very great danger on horseroads on an incline. The horse pulls the boxes up the incline, and the boxes are let go. They sprag them in some instances. Tf a man were on the roadway he would be in danger. We consider that this subsection of the Act should apply to roads where less than 10 tons an hour are put out, and manholes should be put in every 20 yards. 21. Do I understand you to say that these manholes should be put in the horse-roads or in the part of the mine where the trucks are let go ?—Well, there are dangers even in the horse-roads. A man may not have a.ny way of escape when a horse may come along full gallop. I desire also to make reference to the matter of the supply of timber to the miners. We consider that the timber —cap-pieces, and so on —should be brought within 6 ft. of where it is to be put up. At present the management contends, according to the award, that it is sufficient if the timber is delivered to the lay-by. My reason for suggesting this is that it would prevent accidents. It is impossible sometimes for the men to push the boxes with the timber on them. 22. That is a provision in the award. Is there a provision in the Act which deals with the matter ? — Yes. 23. Where ?—Special Rule 11 deals with it. It says that there shall be a sufficient quantity of timber supplied to the workmen. We have no doubt on the point, but it has been a bone of contention between the management and the men. 24. You think the Act should be amended in the direction you suggest ? —Yes, the timber should be delivered to within 6 ft. of where it is to be put up : that would make it clear. We also advocate that ambulance appliances should be provided at every mine for use in case of accident. Also that the miners should travel the escape-roads at least once a week to become acquainted with them. At the present time some miners do not know where the escape or the return is. I think there should be some way of compelling them to become aware of the escape-roads. 25. You want to make it compulsory upon the miners ? —Upon the part of the company to see that the miners do travel these escape-roads. 26. There is nothing to prevent the men from doing so now. Would that not be a provision to apply to the miners—that they should be compelled to do so ?—Well, for their own safety they should be compelled to do so. 27. But your suggestion is that there should be an obligation placed upon the management to compel the men to travel these roads. Why not make the amendment so as to compel the men themselves to do it ?—I would have no objection to that. The difficulty would be that if it was left to them they would not go. I think the obligation should be placed upon the management to say to the men one day every week, " You must travel the escape to-night." It should be the duty of the management to direct it to be done. I wish also to say a few words in regard to the accident record at Green Island. Although the percentage has been low, still the risks in pillaring are tremendous. No doubt the Commission knows the conditions of such work and the effect it has upon the nerves of the men. We think that there should be better supervision with a view to the prevention of accidents in this class of work. The tonnage-rate system is responsible for more risk being taken by the men than there should be. The miners are working at so-much per ton or per box, and they try to get out as much as possible to enable them to earn a living, with the result that the work is rushed a great deal. They do not know when there is going to be an idle day, and I think that the tonnage-rate system should be abolished. 28. That is not a matter of supervision, is it ? I understood you to mean that greater supervision should be exercised over the workmen ?—What I mean is that the miners should exercise more care in timbering. Under the present system there is a rush to get the boxes filled, Math the result that they neglect timbering which is necessary. We advocate also that there should always be two men working together in pillaring. We do not consider it right that one man should be allowed to do such work by himself. There should be a system introduced to reduce the noise at present made in pillaring and head-coal work. There may be a crowd of men put on to fill the fallen coal, and with the noise that goes on when such men are worldng together the men cannot hear a warning. We consider that two men are ample to work in one place if it is to be done safely. Where coaldust accumulates in a mine we advocate that it should be removed. Ido not know whether there is a. provision in the Act to deal with this matier, but it is not attended to in the mines in the Green Island district. We are of opinion that cut-throughs should be put in at least every 60 ft. In regard to the matter of ventilation, we consider that where the miners are working in bords running from heading to heading, even 60 ft. at times is too far for the ventilation to sweep the face all the time. It is necessary to put brattice in. 29. What distance is there between stentons on your field ?—The distance varies ; it is sometimes 20 yards and sometimes 10 yards. 30. But that is within the maximum you suggest ? —Yes, of course, it is in some cases ; but my idea is to try to get the Act amended so that it should be made imperative. 31. You think a uniform standard distance should be specified in the Act. Supposing you had a really bad place, which required the stentons to be put through at shorter distances, would there not be a danger of the manager sticking to the standard to the detriment of the place ? —That is so ; but my idea in specifying the distance is that bratticing is only a temporary method of ventilation. If they were continually carrying on bratticing there would always be a certain amount of leakage, and if that went on for a great distance the air would get worse. There should be a stipulated distance for cut-throughs.

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32. Have you had any experience of the dangers arising from shot-firing ?—Yes, that is a matter 1 overlooked. We consider that proper appliances should be supplied to the miners, and also tamping. Ido not know whether there is provision in the Act for that, but there ought to be. A miner may use tamping which is not fit for use. In pillaring it is different, because you can always get an ample supply from the fall. 33. You do not fire a great many shots in coal-mining : what is the most you fire at a time ?— Three is about the maximum, but generally only one is fired. 34. And as to misfires ?—lf we have a misfire we are withdrawn, and we do not go back. 35. How long is it before you go back ? —Four hours generally. 36. What is a safe time ? —Not to go back that shift. 37. Nothing less than that ? —I should say, four hours. 38. Mr. Dowgray.] You stated that the fan should be kept going when the men are at work : is that not the custom in Green Island ?—The custom in the mine where T am working is for the fan to be kept going while the men are on day shift, but when night shifts are at work the fan has been stopped. I have heard of instances where the fan has not been going for half a day's work. 39. What is the present custom in regard to starting the fan in the morning : when does it start ?— A quarter or half an hour, or sometimes an hour, before the men. 40. Do you feel any bad effects as a result of the fan not being always kept going ?—Yes, sometimes. 41. You recommend that where fans are in use they should be kept going all the time ? —Yes. 42. You suggested that the airways should be at least 5 ft. by 6 ft. : what is the custom now ? — In some places they are 5 ft. by 6 ft., but in many cases they are only 2 ft. or 3 ft. square, and in those places you have to crawl. 43. You stated, in reply to the Chairman, that in your opinion, the air should sweep round the working-faces : do you understand that the Act lays down a minimum of 150 cubic feet per man per minute, and more if necessary ?—Yes. 44. Are we to understand that there is not 150 ft. of air provided at the working-faces ? —I am certain of it in some instances. 45. The Chairman.] Have you seen any air-measurements taken ? —No. 46. Mr. Dowgray.] Are we to understand that the 150 ft. is not circulating round the faces, as required by the Act % —No. 1 read the Act that way, but some are of opinion that so long as the required quantity of air is running through the mine it is sufficient. The Act should be amended to make it clear. 47. You also suggested that subsection (4) of section 40 should be altered so as to include manholes on horse-roads ?—Yes, they are generally, but there is less danger there, because in a drive, for instance, there is room for a box to pass. 48. It would be sufficient for the 10-tons-an-hour limit to be struck out ? —Yes, that would meet the case. 49. And " 20 yards " should be substituted for " 100 yards " ?—Yes. 50. You told us that the custom here is to deliver timber at the lay-by and not at the workingplaces % —Yes. 51. According to my reading of Special Rule 2 it is quite clear that the timber should be delivered at the men's places \ —Yes, I think so, too. But the Mines Department does not agree ; they consider that it is subject to the provision of the award. Previous to this award it was the custom for the company to do all the timbering, but we contend that the Coal-mines Act overrides all awards. 52. The Chairman.] What does the award say ?—That " the company shall cut all timber to the lengths required by the miners, and deliver the same to the miners." That is the reading of the award. 53. Mr. Dowgray.] I noticed that in one mine we visited yesterday the trucking-road is very low: is that not a source of danger to the men when retreating out of it ? —Yes, certainly, it is one of the most dangerous positions that a man can be placed in to have the boxes in behind him, and no way to retreat either at the side or over the top. He is depending upon his strength to be able to push the boxes out of the way. I contend that the road should be wide enough to enable a man to get past a box. They are practically blocked in. 54. Would you suggest a height for trucking-roads ?—Yes, 5 ft. or 6 ft. 55. You stated that there was a feeling abroad amongst the miners that the management always knows when the Inspector is going to visit the mine. Can you give us any reason why you think that I—l1 —I cannot give you any proof, but that is the common tails. 56. The Chairman.] Do you know personally when he is coming ?—No, but we can surmise. As far as the miners at Green Island are concerned, the Inspector of Mines is the last person with whom they would lodge a complaint. They are under the impression that they cannot rely upon the secrecy of correspondence with him. That is why I advocate surprise visits. We want more visits, and if it is too much for the Inspector to do more Inspectors should be appointed, and they should have greater powers. 57. You consider that the Inspectors should have increased powers ?—Yes. 58. In which direction % —They should have the power to enter a mine at any time, and the check inspectors should have that power also. At present they can only go into the mine once a month, and we consider they should be allowed to go down whenever they think there is any laxity on the part of the management or any danger. This applies to the check inspectors and the Government Inspectors. 59. Mr. Dowgray.] But the Government Inspector has the power to enter a mine at any time, has he not ? —No, not in my opinion. 60. You are in favour of the workmen's inspectors having more access to the mines ? —Yes, to prevent accident, and to see to the ventilation.

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61. Do you suggest that a monthly inspection is not enough ?—Yes. 62. When the Inspectors go to visit these mines, is there a lot of preparation made; for them ? — That is the assumption of the men. They talk amongst themselves and say to one another. " The Inspector will be here to-day." 63. Then, even though his arrival is expected, it has the effect of improving the conditions ? — Yes. But there would be more satisfaction if the visits were surprise visits; it would be better for both manager and the men. 64. What is your opinion on the subject of men being required to have a certain amount of experience in coal-mines before being placed in charge of a face % —I consider that they should undergo an apprenticeship, that they should have two years' experience underground, and serve some time at the face. 65. Do you think that would help to reduce the number of accidents I —l am sure of it. 66. Mr. Cochrane.] You said that manholes should be provided every 20 yards ? —Yes. 67. Do I understand that to refer to incline places, where the horses draw up the empties and the full ones run down?— More so there, but also on level roads, because a horse running at full gallop would be a danger. 68. Then, as to the guiding of the air round the faces, is your suggestion that the whole of the aircurrent coming into the mine should be taken round, or would you specify that the air from one split should supply one section ? —Yes, there should be splits. What I meant was that the whole of the air travelling in the vicinity should circulate in the places. 69. Without undue leakage ? —Yes, certainly, the air should sweep those faces and not pass them. 70. Mr. Reed."] As regards your statement that the fans do not run at night, will you tell us how many men work on a night shift in the mine ?—Two or three. 71. So that you only want sufficient air for two or three men on the night shift ? —Certainly. 72. Is the natural ventilation not good enough for that ? —No, not in all cases. 73. But it only requires 300 ft. per minute for two men : is it not good enough for that % —Not in some mines, because, with the gases given off from pillaring and the firedamp arising from falls, the natural ventilation is not sufficient. 74. Tell me which mine has not 300 ft. of air by natural ventilation I—l1 —I am not going to arguethat point ; but the air is mixed with the gases,, and the miners are inhaling a certain proportion of those gases. 75. Then you would compel the company to run the fan all night for two men ? —Certainly, for two men or twenty. 76. And you do not regard natural ventilation of any value whatever ?—lt may be where there are no gases given off. 77. In which mines are these gases given off in these large proportions ? —ln all the mines I have been working in. 78. You advocate that double stoppings should be built with brick : do you mean that to apply to temporary stopping ? —To all stoppings where there are fires. 79. You refer only to fire-stopping ? —Yes. 80. As regards manholes, you made a recommendation that the Act should be amended to require these being cut every 20 yards on horse-roads : do you mean that to be done regardless of the width of the horse-road ? Supposing the horse-road is 12 ft. wide, would you have a manhole there ?—No, only where there is not sufficient room, on each side for a man to get out of the way. If you have sufficient width you do not need them. 81. As regards ambulance appliances, are they not provided in these mines ?—I have never seen any. 82. Not in the office ?—I have never seen any. 83. You recommended that the miners should travel the escape every week. In whose time ?— In their own time if they are pieceworkers, but, if they are not, in the company's time. 84. You advocated the removal of coaldust: would it not be a great expense to shovel this dust up always ? —Not necessarily to shovel the dust up. I think it would be sufficient to flood it with water from a tank on roads where men are travelling. It might be done once a week. 85. Would that wet ground not be a matter for complaint ? —lt would not be very wet if just sufficient water were used to lay the dust.. 86. Is it not the safer precaution to keep your pillars large in the first operation ?—Yes. 87. You have advocated that they should be cut up by stentons every 10 yards : that is spoiling them, is it not ? —That is so. When I said 10 yards I may have underestimated it a little ; but usually they are more than 10 yards, and there is not the ventilation. There is also always a certain amount of leakage. 88. The Chairman.] In the north it has been recommended to the Commission that the pillars should be made larger, but you are proposing the opposite : is that not dangerous I—Not1 —Not necessarily. The pillar one way could be kept a fair size. 89. Mr. Reed.] What regulates the dimensions of the pillar: is it not the superincumbent pressure of rock upon them ?—Certainly, you must keep them strong enough ; but if you have stentons every 10 yards there would be quite sufficient support, providing your pillars the other way were 8 yards instead of 4 yards as at present. 90. At the Green Island Mine, you say, you cannot get adequate ventilation with brattice longer than 10 yards ? —I did not say that ; but the stentons should go through to prevent any leakage in the brattice. 91. You say you read this section 40 of the regulations to mean that 150 ft. of air should circulate round the faces. How do you arrive at that theory: the Act does not say that % —There should be sufficient air to allow the men to work in comfort, and not permit them to be choked.

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92. But in a non-inflammable mine would yon regard 150 ft. of air as necessary to keep a man comfortable when working ? —I am not going to assume anything of the kind. 93. Just so; but why do you think 150 ft. should be there? —T am only saying that the Act requires it. 94. The Act states that as a minimum, and says further that, " Provided that where the Inspector is satisfied that such rate is insufficient to provide adequate ventilation, he may from time to time require the rate to be increased " ? —That is so. 95. Then the law provides that to protect you. The Inspector can make the management give you more air under that section ? —Yes, that is so. 96. Now, as regards Special Rule 11 and delivery of timber, does not that read such " workingplace," and not " working-face " ?—Yes. 97. Now, do you contract to deliver their coal at the lay-by ?—Yes ; but we do not contract to put timber up in the lay-by. That is in a working-place. 98. You contract to work 4 chains ?—Yes. 99. Your working-place is 4 chains long ? —You say so ; but I contend that the working-place is at 1 lie face, where you get your coal. 100. Do you truck for distances of 4 chains ? —We truck in distances. 101. Is your contract for 4 chains ? —Yes. 102. Is one end of your contract the lay-by : you contract to truck from the lay-by to Ihe face 'i— You have to put the coal there. 1.03. You are working from the lay-by to the face, and the regulation states that the timber shall Ik , delivered to the working-places. It is delivered at the lay-by, is it not ?—Yes, that is so. 104. Consequently the lay-by must be part of your working-place ? —No. Assuming that a man is trucking his coal 4 chains on a heavy grade, it takes him all his time to push his truck. How is it possible, then, for him to wheel that timber into the face ? The Act should be made; clear to show that the timber must be delivered at the face. 105. Do you suggest that the inspection is lax in not insisting upon this timber being delivered to the face I—Yes.1 —Yes. If that is not done, and the men are required to take in their timber, they will simply neglect to bother with it, and that would, lead to accident. That is the reason why we bring the matter up. 106. Does the management assist with the timber? —Yes, in some cases ; but the miner is usually left to struggle with it, or he has to get some one to assist him. 107. Has this question been brought before the Arbitration Court ? —Yes ; and the whole of the recommendations made by the employers before the Court were accepted by the Judge. 108. The Chairman.'] You say that this word " working-place " should be more definitely defined ? -Yes. 109. Because it is injurious to the men to truck up heavy roads ? —Yes. 110. Mr. Dowgray.] Were you speaking of No. 2 Christie's Mine when you said that two men were working on the night shift ? Is there a fan there ?—No. 111. Are there not fires in that mine ?—Yes. 112. When the fan is stopped, how does it affect the smoke in the mine ?—lt would almost chase you out of the mine. You are able to walk in ; but it is a difficult matter to work in that atmosphere. The ventilation is certainly not sufficient for men to work arduously there. 113. The Chairman.] What work do the two men on the night shift have to do ?—Sometimes pillaring arid sometimes repairing. 114. So that they may have to travel the whole of the mine in the night ? —Yes. 115. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you any sanitary arrangements in the mine ? —No. 116. What do the men do ? —They just go into the return or into the waste part of the mine. 117. Mr. MoMneaux.] Can you tell me how long it is since the night shift has worked in the Christie's No. 2 Mine ? —lt is some time. 118. This year ? —I cannot exactly tell you ; but it is some time. back. 119. So that really there is not much hardship if the fan is stopped at night —it is only on odd occasions that it is required ? —When the night shift is working the fan should be going. lam not alluding to any particular mine. As a matter of fact, all the mines in the district at times have worked at night without the fan working. Alexander Love sworn, and examined. (No. 34.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ?—A coal-miner. 2. With how many years' experience? —I have had betwixt thirty-eight and thirty-nine years' experience—principally in the Green Island district. 3. Have you any position in the mine ?—No, not at the present time. 4. Have you ever held any office ?—Yes, at different times. 5. What office ? —Deputy. I have also had mines of my own at times. 6. Do you hold any office in the union ?—I am president of the Green Island Branch of the union. 7.. And do you speak with the concurrence of the union?— Yes. I think Mr. Hollows has given you. a good idea of the matters the union wished to have laid before the Commission. 8. In the first place, do you corroborate generally what he has had to say ? —Yes. I wish also to say that in driving bords in solid work they should not be higher than 7 ft. or 8 ft. ; and for safety in the extraction of pillars no head coal should be taken down until pillars are extracted. My reason for that is that several of the mines in our district have changed hands, and the companies which held the properties first robbed the mines by taking down the head coal up to 1.7 ft. or 18 ft., and it is

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impossible to timber those bords. Therefore there is great risk in working these pillars, and we advocate that in the solid the work should be carried on by that method—with lower bords, say 7 ft. or 8 ft. high. Then, as to brushing, we find some complaint as to the width of the places ; for instance, there are some places where the men are extracting pillars which are only 5 ft. or 6 ft. wide. If an inrush of debris happened they have to rush and push the box away as quickly as they can. I would advocate that the brushing in all working-places and also in trucking-roads should be brushed up to a height of say 6 ft. or 7 ft. I must also say we would like to see higher props ; at present they are only about 8 ft. There should be longer temporary props supplied and kept in the workings. Then there is the matter of the drawing of the props. There was an accident which happened in connection with that class of work. The shift before had advised the man to draw a prop and set it up behind ; whether he did so or not we have no evidence to prove, but we contend there should be a deputy with these men on the night shift. There were none up till the time this accident occurred. Then, in regard to check inspectors. We can only make an inspection once a month, and we. cannot go down to inquire into complaints when they are received. Supposing there is something complained of in regard to pillarworking : a pillar might only last a few days, and if we can only go down once a month our chance of seeing the conditions complained of is gone. Then I would advocate that inquiries into accidents should bo held before a Magistrate, a mine-manager, and a representative of the union. 9. That is so now ? —But I think it says it is to be before a J.P. Then, with regard to bigger pillars, I do not think they would be suitable in our district, for under our award we work bords 12 ft. wide, and a pillar Bor 10 yards would be too great to carry. We have only a bit of fireclay and stone, and there is no substance in that. I think that pillars anything from 4to 6 yards is quite sufficient in our district. Then we have trouble about the delivery of the props. The provision is misconstrued to mean that the miner has to take his own prop from the lay-by. For myself I think, according to the Act, it should be the miner's working-place, because if there were twenty or thirty miners going into a lay-by the question arises as to whose place it is. I might also state that it is very difficult foi the men to unload such timber as 10 ft. blue-gum props, with two empty boxes in the lay-by and meeting the full boxes coming down. In our mine the deputy usually helps the men to unload, but when he is not there it is very hard on the miner to do it himself. 10. Do you say that the present custom is responsible for the miners neglecting timbering ?— Yes, that is the case in our mine. 11. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you ever had any difficulty in connection with the run of the strata in these pillars ?—Yes. 12. Have there been any accidents in the mine as the result of that?— Yes, some slight accidents; and I think we escape many more serious ones simply by good luck. I think the brushing I have suggested would improve matters. I think Mr. Christie made the statement yesterday that the coal was 30 ft. thick in one place. Fancy a mine like that having only one outlet ! The air is naturally very stagnant. 13. As regards sanitary arrangements, are there no pans or anything provided ? —No, there is nothing that I know of, except that lately a place has been erected outside our colliery. 14. Mr. Reed.] You recommend that pillars should be from 4 to 6 yards : under what pressure would you have these —at what depth from the surface would you have pillars with these dimensions ?— From 20 ft. up to 100 ft. We are working practically in outcrops. If you go beyond 100 ft. you would want your pillars a foot or two extra. 15. Would you have that applied generally, or are you speaking only of your mine %— I am speaking of the mines in our district." 16. How many accidents have there been in pillar-work at Green Island during the last forty years — ever since pillar-work was started in the district? —Well, I think that is a big question to answer. I cannot say. There was one man buried in Christie's No. 2 Mine ;he was got out alive, but he has not recovered his health :it is the result of the dangerous work. There are a number of small accidents where men have been of! work two or three months, but I think to get a full list you would have to go to the insurance company. 17. How long have you been mining ?—I started at eleven and lam nearly fifty now, so that makes it nearly thirty-nine years. 18. And you can remember only one fatal accident as the result of pillar-extraction ?■—Well, it is only during the last few years that pillar-extraction has come into force. 19. Is that not a good record % —I have not said there was only one accident. I have not been here all the time —I have been at Kaitangata and uf) the country. 20. If there has been only one recorded in that time, is it not a good record ?—lt is sheer luck that there are not more. I think the management and men are very lucky to escape the accidents. 21. With regard to the delivery of timber, is it not a fact that the present management has been settled by the Arbitration Court, and that under it the company pays for the removal of the timber from the lay-by ? —Not that I am aware. 22. Was not the tonnage rate raised to cover it ?—No; the only thing we have to go by is our award. 23. Was not the tonnage rate raised by the Arbitration Court to cover this ?—No ; I say not. The miners applied to the Arbitration Court for a rise in wages on account of the increased cost of living, and they were granted a rise of Id. per box on round coal. The timbering was done by the company before that, and it has since been placed on us. 24. Would you be surprised to hear that such an arrangement exists ? —Yes, I would be surprised to hear that. The reason for bringing this matter forward is because some of the men have been cautioned.

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Richabd Green sworn and examined. (No. 35.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you ?—General manager of Freeman's Coal Company. 2. Do you hold any certificate ?—Yes, an underviewer's certificate. lam also part-owner of the mine. 3. How many years' mining experience, have you had ? —About thirty-two. 4. Where ?—ln our own mine here. 5. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission ? —Well, I wish to contradict some of the evidence that has been given, and to explain other matters. It has been stated that fans should be kept going continuously. That might be all right in gaseous mines, but Ido not think it at all necessary in our mine. It was also stated that the oil-engine was at work and that the smoke from it went round the working-faces. That is not so —the exhaust from that engine goes direct into the return. 6. Assuming that to be so on general principles, do you think it ought to go into the return airway ? —Yes, that is the proper place for it. Then there is the matter of the double stoppings. If the management cannot tell what is required, I ask, how do the men know ? There are the local conditions to be taken into consideration, and no one knows better than the management what is required, and he makes his plans accordingly. He has the safety of the men and mine to look after, and he can be trusted to do the best, I think. It was also stated by one witness that the visit of the Inspector of Mines was a prearranged affair. 7. He did not say that :he said it was known, he thought ?—I wish to deny that. It is not known to me, as part-owner of our mine, when the Inspector is about to visit our mine. As to the check inspectors, they want more powers and various other things. They want their powers increased so as to be able to inspect the mine at any time. That is intended to make trouble in the matter of rates : it is not for , the safety of the men at all that they want this power. It is well known what they are after. The safety of the men is well looked after by men much more competent than they are. They also wish the check inspectors' reports to go to the Department and not to the manager. Why not to the manager ? If there is anything wrong about the mine there is no man who wants to know it quicker than the manager. 8. The suggestion was that it should go to both —so that the Department as well as the minemanager should see it ?—Well, that would be better than going to the Department direct, be ause the manager wants to know, and to hide it from him is ridiculous. Then there is the matter of timber, which is a sore question with the miners at the present time, for this reason : that at the last sitting of the Arbitration Court, held about three years ago, it was pointed out by the owners why it was reasonable to ask the men to take in the timber. That matter was thoroughly threshed out then, and the rates were increased to cover it. As regards ambulance-kits, we have them kept at our mine. Then they want the tonnage-rate system abolished. Of course, I might be going outside the scope of the Commission in doing so, but I want to say that there is an agitation on foot to do away with the contract system and introduce a weekly-wage system, and this is an attempt to bring it along. 9. But we have had the suggestion made to us elsewhere that the contract system makes the men rush their work more ? —But that suggestion is only a means to an end. 10. But we are considering whether we will take it into account in connection with the matter of accidents ?—Very well. Then, one witness wanted the noise reduced in the mine. How are you going to fill coal without making a certain amount of noise ? 11. Ffe only said there should not be half a dozen men working in one place I—That1 —That would mean that you would get out only one-twentieth of the coal you get at the present time. 12. Supposing you had a fall and there were half a dozen men there working ? —lf there were any danger the manager would be there, you may take that from me. One witness wanted the coalrlust removed. That is an utter impossibility —that is, if men are going to travel in and out. To remove the coaldust simply means that the mine would have to be shut down. Then, as to pillars being from 8 ft. to 10 ft., I would point out that if you are in ground that has heavy clay on top, the smaller your pillars the greater the crush. The manager regulates the size of the pillars. He must find out the most suitable size for the ground he is in. As regards the timber, I may mention that there is no timber at all being pushed uphill in our mine, and if it is heavy work the men are always helped. I think these are the main points I wish to deal with. 13. Mr. Reed.] As regards running the fan, how many men work on the night shift ? —Never more than two. 14. Is there any natural ventilation in your mine ? —Yes. 15. Have you measured it? —Yes; there was 18,000 cubic feet prior to the erection of the fan. 16. That would be about 9,000 ft. per man per minute ? —Yes. 17. Does that natural ventilation go round the faces ?—Yes, right round. 18. Would you regard a complaint that the air is inadequate as reasonable ? —There might be one or two places in the mine where there might be reason for complaint—supposing, for instance, you were extracting pillars and there was a fire smouldering not far away. There would then be grounds for complaint, but under ordinary circumstances there is absolutely none. 19. Have you ambulance appliances at your mine ?—Yes. 20. Where do you keep them ?—ln the office. 21. What do. they consist of ?—An ambulance-kit and the necessary bandages, splints, and stretcher. 22. How long have you had them there ? —For twenty or thirty years. The present kit has been then; four or five years. 23. Do the men know they are there % —Yes, 1 should think so. 24. Have they ever been used ? —Only on one occasion, as far as I can remember.

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25. On how many occasions lias it been necessary to use them ?—They have, been used on every occasion when they have been required. 26. You have not had many accidents to require to use them ?— No, not sufficiently serious to require them. 27. Is the coaldust in your mine explosive.—No. 28. Is there any firedamp in your mine ?—No. 29. Do you know the reason why the coaldust is removed from mines in other countries I Because it is inflammable. 30. Those conditions do not occur with you ?—No. 31. Now, as regards the noise in pillar-extraction, do you understand anything about the longwall system of working \ —l understand the system, but I have never had experience with it. 32. With it there may be fifty men working where you have only one ? —Yes. 33. What sort of noise would that number of men make ?— lt would be very great,. 34. Under your system how many men are working in close proximity to one another ? — Well, at most, perhaps four. 35. What is the difference in danger between the longwall and pillar systems? Are you aware that most of the collieries in Great Britain are worked on the longwall principle ?— Yes. 36. There are a great number of men there working in sight of one another ?—-Yes, hundreds. 37. Are you aware that the death-rate from accident there is very low indeed ?- -] am not acquainted with what it is. 38. As regards brattice and stentons, one witness said he would like to see stentons put through every l<) yards : would you regard 20 yards too long for brattice ? —I would say it is not too long. 39. If the brattice is well erected would you be afraid of it leaking ?— -It depends upon the nature of the, brattice, of course ; some would leak more than others, but there should be little or no leakage if it is proper brattice. 40. Given proper brattice it would be all right to hay it 20 yards I —Yes. 41. Have you had any difficulty in interpreting the Coal-mines Act in regard to adequate ventilation ? — Well, that would come more under the notice of the manager. I have not been in charge of the mine underground. It would probably be that he would discuss the question with the [inspector. 42. Is the inspection pretty regular in your district ?—Yes, fairly regular. 13. Does the Inspector notify you of any defects ? —Yes. 44. Frequently ?—Well, we think it is frequently enough, at any rate. 45. You consider the inspection adequate in the interests of human life ?— Yes. 46. As is proved by the absence of fatalities ? —Yes. 47. Mr. Dowgray.] Is your certificate one of competency or service ?—Service. 48. And you have a first-class certificated mine-manager in charge of your mine 3— Yes. 49. You stated that prior to the erection of the fan there was 18,000 ft. of air passing into the mine by natural ventilation ?—Yes. 50. Is your fan shaft not your second outlet or return ?—Yes. 51. When the fan stands is that return airway not blocked up ? —No, we open the damper. 52. You open the door ?—No, the damper in the shaft a big iron plate, 6by 4. 53. Does that give a direct opening to the surface ?—Yes; the chimneys are 12 ft. above the fan altogether. 54. You stated that you have ambulance appliances in the office : are they used ?— Yes. 55. Can you give us any idea as to the number of accidents which have, occurred in your mine during the last twelve months —cases in which you have had to pay compensation ? —There might have been one or two —and they were only minor accidents. ■56. You said your principal objection to the check inspectors visiting the mine at any time was that it would create strife amongst the workers ? —Yes. 57. And yet you appreciate their reports so much that you want them sent to you I—lf1 —If there is any report made, we want a copy of it. 58. So that it serves a useful purpose ? —lt may serve some useful union purpose, but not in the nature of reducing accidents. 59. You accompany the check inspectors in their inspections ?—Yes ; but I have something else to do —I cannot go round every day. 60. Are there stretchers provided in your mine ? —Yes. 61. How about the dust ? —Where that dust is tjhere is no water, and there is no way to gel water in. 62. Could not water be brought in ?—1 dare say it could be brought in, but it would be a question as to whether it would not be as cheap to put the shutters up and keep the men out as to bring water in. Robert Hill sworn and examined. (No. 36.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a mine-manager I—Yes,1 —Yes, of Christie's No. 2 Mine. 2. What certificate do you hold ? —First-class competency certificate. 3. What experience have you had ? —Forty-five years. 4. You have heard Mr. Green's evidence : do you agree with it ?—Yes, 1 agree with all he has said. 5. Have you anything to add to his statement ? —Yes, a little. I would like to say, first of all, thai there is absolutely no truth in the innuendo thrown out that managers are aware when the Inspector is going to make his inspection. There has been a great deal said as regards the danger of extracting pillars. Personally, 1 cannot; see where that danger comes in. In my experience 1 have

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had more accidents to men working in bords than in the extraction of pillars. T have been engaged extracting pillars since 1890, and during all those years I do not think a miner has been injured when extracting pillars- not by the smallest accident. I would also like to say that there is a great difference between the views of the miners on this matter a few years ago and the evidence given here by them to-day. When we were withdrawing our men from a previous mine to go to our present one they did not want to leave their pillar-work, simply because, I think, they could make more mono) , pillaring, and it was just as safe as other work. In my opinion, the pillar-work is no more dangerous than —in fact, not so dangerous as — working in bords. Then, the secretary of the union spoke of work on the night shift. Well, we have had no night-shift work for nearly two years. We did not keep the men working with only the natural ventilation—we lit the furnace every day at 3.30 o'clock p.m. The furnace was capable of producing 10,000 ft. of air, and was kept going by the deputy. 6. You have closed your furnace now ?— Yes, at present it is closed ; but we sometimes use it. 1 may say, sir, 1 did not come here with the intention of giving evidence, but I thought 1. would like to say that 1 disagree with the idea of the check inspectors being able to go down and make an inspection every day. 7. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you know anything about the longwall system of extracting pillars ? —Yes ; it was all worked in the longwall system where I come from in the Old Country. 8. Do you agree with me that with the longwall system the working-places are about 20 or 30 yards apart ?- It is about 20 yards, I think. 9. Mr. Heed.] As regards the noise, is it not very much greater under the longwall system than thai made in pillar-extraction here ? —Yes. 10. Have you mined at Home ?—Yes. 11. Did you ever hear the miners complain there about the noise under the longwall system ? —No. I might say that when I began extracting pillars in the present mine we had three men at least working together ; then they said there should be only one man ; and now .they-say there should be not less than two men. 12. Mr. Fletcher.] What was the height of seam where you were work-ing in the longwall system ?— From 20 in. to 3 ft. 6 in. 13. What height is the seam here ? —About 20 ft. 11. Mr. Dowgray.'] In what part of the Old Country did you work in the longwall system?— In Airdrie. 15. How far were the working-places apart ? —As I said, about 20 yards. 16. How many men worked in a place ?—Two.

(trantty (Martin's Hall).—9th Octobeb, 1911. Jambs Newton examined. (No. 37.) 1. The Chairman.] You are Inspector of Mines for this district ?—Yes. 2. You have some statistics to submit to the Commission regarding these mines ?—Yes, a list of fatal and serious accidents in the West Coast Inspection District from 1905 to 1907 ; a list of fatal and serious accidents in the same district from 1908 to September, 1911 ; air-measurements at the Westport-Stockton Mine and Millerton Mine ; and analyses of mine-air samples taken by me in these mines. [Exhibit 18.] Victor Tomasi sworn and examined. (No. 38.) 1.. The Chairman.] What are you ?—A coal-miner. 2. How many years' experience have you had ?—Thirteen. 3. Where ? —Denniston and Stockton. 4. Which mine are you working in now ?—Stockton. 5. Do you hold any office in the mine ?—No. 6. Do you hold any position in the union ?—Yes, I am secretary to the Stockton Miners' Union. 7. What is your membership ? —One hundred and fifty. 8. And does that comprise all the miners on the field, or what proportion of the miners arc members of your union ? —lt comprises all the miners on the field. 9. Have you been appointed by the union to lay these matters before the Commission ?—Yes. 10. And in regard to these matters your members are unanimous ? —Yes. 11. Now, what subjects do you wish to bring to the attention of the Commission?—As to ventilation, attendants at fans, firemen's reports, sanitation, baths, accidents, and check inspectors. 12. What have you to say as regards ventilation ?—Well, I would like to recommend that 150 cubic feet of air be brought round to each individual in the working-face. 13. Circulated in the working-faces? —Yes, or where the men are working, and also that the air be split into different sections in the mine. 14. Instead of the whole of the air circulating through the whole of the faces, that it be circulated in splits ?—Yes. 15. What is the practice in the Stockton Mine : is the air circulated through the whole of the faces ? —Yes. 16. What have you to say in regard to the attendance at the fans ? —I would like to recommend that some one should be in constant attendance at the fan. At the present time when the fan stops it is some time before they can get the air going through the mine again. 17. Have you known the fan to stop ? —I have, in different mines—occasionally in this mine.

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18. Supposing the fan were to stop, how long would it be before it would be noticeable ?—lt may be some time. The deputy has other duties to attend to, and it may be half an hour. 19. Would it be noticeable in the working-faces ? Would the miners themselves notice it ? — Yes, after a while. 20. How long would it be before it was discovered ?—lt may be half an hour or so ; a miner notices it when he fires a shot and finds that things are not so good. 21. As far as your experience goes, what is the general condition of the ventilation in the Stockton Mine ? —lt is very fair just now. We cannot complain at the present time, but at times it has not been so good. 22. What have you to say in regard to the firemen's reports ?—I 'would like to recommend that a board be placed at the mine-mouth, and when the fireman enters the mine he should turn it with the blank side showing, and no man should be allowed to enter the mine with the board so showing. Then when he has examined the mine he should turn the board, and write his report on it. 23. Is there a board there at the present time ? —Yes, but it is not what I am recommending now. 24. Where is it placed ? —At the mine-mouth. 25. You want a board with the report written on one side ? —Yes. 26. What is your recommendation as to baths ? —1 would like to recommend that baths be provided at mine-mouths. 27. How far have the miners to walk to their homes after leaving the mine ?—Some have four miles to go —it varies from one mile to four. 28. Have you any idea of how many miners would use the baths if they were provided ? —I should certainly say they would use them, provided there were sufficient baths. 29. What would you consider a sufficient number of baths —how many men to a bath ?—About four men to a bath. 30. How many men are employed in the mine ?—One hundred and fifty at present. 31. Is that the total number, or the greatest number on one shift ?—The total number ; but they are not all in the mine—there are about a hundred working in the mine. 32. On one shift ?—Yes. 33. How many baths would you suggest should be erected for the convenience of the men who would use them, with a working-roll of a hundred men ?—I would recommend one bath for each four men. 34. Have you any suggestion to offer as to how they should be erected ? —Yes, they should be erected in stalls. 35. Have you plenty of water in this part of the country ?—Yes. 36. And handy to the mine-mouth ? —Yes. 37. What have you to say in regard to accidents ? —I would like to recommend, in the first place, that there should be no places driven more than 12 ft. wide and 10 ft. high. 38. That is in straight driving ? —Yes, in straight driving. 39. What are your average widths and heights now ? —From 18 ft. wide and 16 ft. high. 40. And what is the thickness of the seam ? —That is the thickness at the present time—l 6 ft. ; it varies from 8 ft. to 16 ft. 41. What thickness of coal would you suggest should be left overhead ? —Coal should be left overhead where, it could be done according to the thickness of the seam. If you are working it 14 ft., 15 ft., or 16 ft., you could leave 3 ft. or 4 ft. of coal; but when the coal is only 10 ft. thick you could not leave much. 42. Supposing your seam were 12 ft. thick ? —lf it were hard coal you could leave 2 ft. ; but it would be better to go right to the roof in that case. 43. You want a 10 ft. place ; but you say that if there is 12 ft. of coal it is not safe to leave tht 2 ft. ? —I would recommend that the place be driven 9 ft., and that 3 ft. be left on. You would not need to go so high. 44. And what about pillars ? —I would suggest that all pillars be split, the splits not to be more than 12 ft. wide. 45. And as to check inspectors ? —I would like to recommend that in cases where they find anything unsafe or an insufficiency of air, if their report is neglected and the matter not put right, they should be allowed to stop the place and prosecute the manager. 46. What experience, as a rule, have check inspectors in determining bad conditions ? You ask that they should have power to stop a place and prosecute '? —Well, experienced miners are appointed for the purpose. 47. Are you not asking for a great deal of power in making this recommendation ?—lf during their examinations they find only, say,.so ft. or 100 ft. of air, and they ask for 150 ft. to be put in, and it is not done, the inspectors should be able to prosecute. 48. Do you not think that a check inspector should pass some examination to prove his qualifications for determining such matters ? —Well, he has the instrument with him. 49. But there is no guarantee that he would understand the reading of the instrument. Are you not asking for an extended power ? Should it not be necessary for him to submit to examination on the subject of mine-gases, ventilation, and generally so as to prove his qualifications I — J would recommend that no man should be allowed to be a check inspector unless he was a practical man and had been in the mine for a number of years, but without the examination. Further, that they should be paid by the Government. 50. In the event of a check inspector, under your suggestion, talcing proceedings and failing, would you make him liable for costs ? Supposing he stopped a mine and could not establish his case—if, for instance, upon investigation it was found that the air was adequate —-who is to bear the loss ?—I should certainly say that 1 would not blame him, because if he is ap experienced man surely there must be something the matter,

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51. If you ask for such drastic powers, the check inspectors should satisfy somebody that they are duly qualified—say, the Inspector of Mines—or be required to pass an examination I—Well, at the present time they could call in the Inspector of Mines before prosecuting. 52. Yes, but you are asking for greater powers for the check inspectors than even the Inspectors of Mines have ?—Yes; but we want these conditions altered. 53. Have you anything to suggest as to enlarging the powers of the Inspectors of Mines on these lines ? —I do not think so. 54. Would it not be better, if the check inspector finds that his report is not attended to, to bring the matter before the Inspector of Mines, and for the Inspector of Mines to have the power to prosecute ?—Well, that would cover it. 55. There is a recommendation before the Commission that in certain cases power be given to the Inspector of Mines to prosecute on his own initiative : would not that meet your case % —Yes, that would cover it. 56. If the check inspector called in the Inspector of Mines to go with him, and for the Inspector of Mines to have power to prosecute if he found the check inspector's report correct % —Yes. I also want to recommend that blocks be placed on jig-heads, and bells on knockers, and that an anchorchain be provided. 57. And what have you to say about the sanitary arrangements in mines ? —Yes, I would like to recommend that there should be a truck placed in each section of the mine, together with cinders or coal-slack, and when the men go there they should put it into the truck before leaving the place, and the truck should be taken out at certain times. 58. Mr. Dowgray.] What objection have you to the men using the ordinary sanitary pans ? — In these mines we have a floating population, and you do not know who is working in the mine with you, and I do not think it is advisable to use the pan after everybody else has been using it. 59. In the event of the companies being compelled to adopt a system such as you have just outlined, would you be in favour of the men being prosecuted if they did not use it ?—Certainly. 60. Could you suggest a fine ?—Yes, I certainly would fine them not less than 10s. 61. AVould that be sufficient ? —I think so. 62. In regard to workmen's inspectors ; what is your opinion as to their being tied down to visiting the mine only once a month, as the law stands at present ?—I would like to say that they should be allowed to go round at any time, if there were any complaints. 63. In reply to the Chairman, did I understand you to say that you were in favour of workmen's inspectors having the power to prosecute, or simply to stop the place until it was seen by the Government Inspector ? —To stop the place in the meantime. 64. You are aware that the present Coal-mines Act says that 150 ft. of air is to be supplied to each man ? —Well, I could not say that to my own knowledge it says so clearly—l was of the opinion that it means in the intake.' 65. That is the minimum, to be increased by the Inspector of Mines at any time ? —Yes. 66. Do you think the Act should be made clearer, so that that amount shall be distributed to each man at the face ? —Yes. 67. Is it not the custom in your mine to have bells on these jigs ? —At the present time there are bells and knockers on some, but not on all. It should be made compulsory that there should be stopblocks and bells or knockers. 68. When speaking of the anchor-chain you referred to the face-jig ? —Yes. Arthur Harris sworn and examined. (No. 39.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ? —A miner. 2. With how many years' experience ? —Twenty. 3. Where I—At1 —At Denniston, Kaitangata, Blackball, and Huntly. 4. What mine are you working in now ? —The Stockton. 5. How long have you been there ?—Three years. 6. Do you hold any position in the mine ? —No. 7. Have you any position in any union ? —Yes, I am a check inspector. 8. Are you a member of the executive of the union % —No, simply a member, and check inspector. 9. You have heard the evidence of the previous witness ? —Yes. 10. Can you corroborate his evidence on the matters he has brought forward ?—Yes. 11. Have you anything further to add ? —No. 12. You say you are a check inspector : what have you to say with regard to the experience which should be required of check inspectors —assuming that you are asking for further powers ?—Well, I think the check inspectors should have the power, perhaps not to prosecute, but if he thinks the place bad, to stop it. 13. But what experience do you consider check inspectors should have before getting those powers ?—They should have four or five years' experience at a working-face. 14. Would four or five years' experience at a working-face give a man sufficient experience of gases, the taking of temperatures, the detection of gases, and general conditions, to justify him in stopping a place % —Of course, a man would know well enough if he had four or five years' experience in a mine. 15. You think four or five years in a working-face would enable him to determine the presence of injurious gases ?—I think so. 16. Have you anything further to add to the recommendations of the previous witness % —No. 16—C. 4.

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JP 17. Mr. Dowgray.] There is a considerable amount of unskilled labour in the mines : what is your opinion in connection with such men having charge of a working-place ? —I think a man should have two years in and about a working-face, and three months with an experienced man, before he takes charge of a face. 18. Have you known these fans to stop and give any inconvenience to the miners ?—Not here. 19. Do you think the system outlined by the previous witness as to sanitation is the best system ? —Yes. 20. Mr. Parry.] In regard to the qualification of a check inspector, do you not think it would be sufficient evidence of his qualifications if he were selected by a body of experienced men ? —Yes. 21. Mr. Reed.] Are you in favour of deputies and underviewers holding certificates ? —Yes. 22. Have deputies and underviewers the power to stop any place without consulting the manager ? —I could not say whether they have or not. 23. Then why would you recommend that check inspectors should have greater powers than underviewers, without having passed an examination % —I do not think the deputy would stop the place, because he is the company's man : it is the men who should have the right to stop it if it is bad. 24. You would grant greater powers to uncertificated men than to certificated men % —Certainly, because the deputies are the company's men. 25. The Chairman.] Would you favour check inspectors passing the same examination as deputies before being appointed, even after they are nominated by the miners ?—Yes, I would. Jambs Newman sworn and examined. (No. 40.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ?—A miner. 2. With how many years' experience ? —Thirty. 3. Where ? —As a boy in the Old Country, at various mines in New South Wales, and here in the Westport-Stockton Company's mine. 4. Do you hold any position in the mine ? —No. 5. Or in the union ?—I am vice-president of the Granity Union. 6. How many members have you in your union ? —4BO to 500, I think. 7. Does that represent the whole of the miners engaged in the neighbourhood ?—I think so. 8. Have you discussed with your members or the union officials the matters you wish to bring before the Commission % —Certainly. 9. Are you unanimous upon them \ —Certainly. 10. What matters do you wish to bring forward ?—ln regard to ventilation I would like to say that we have been under a misapprehension. I was under the impression, that if the company provided the air in the intake that was sufficient. I contend that 150 ft. should be travelling through the working-places. 11. Would you suggest that the Act should be made clearer, so that 150 ft. should be kept circulating in the working-places where the men are working ? —Yes. 12. Is there anything further you wish to say ?—ln connection with ventilation I should like to mention the matter of the fan. I think in the interests of every one concerned the fans should have an attendant. I know that I feel alarmed to think there is no attendant there. They are liable to go wrong, and they have stopped. 13. How far are they away from the working-face \ Who is the nearest person to the fans ? —The deputy. Of course, there may be a place nearer to the fan. The deputy may be round the section. 14. How often would he be there ? —About a couple of times. 15. Where are the fans worked from ? —From the compressors. 16. At any rate, you recommend that a man should be in attendance at the fan ? —Somebody should be in attendance there, so that the alarm could be given immediately if it stopped. There is another matter in connection with the ventilation : at the mouth of the tunnel where we go in there should be a board placed. 17. What is considered to be the mouth of the tunnel in the Millerton Mine ?—Where we go in. 18. You heard what the secretary to the Stockton Union had to say on that point—that a reversible, board with " Report" on one side and blank on the other should be fixed, and that while the blank side is turned out no man should be allowed to go in \ —Well, in the mines I have worked in there is a board placed there. In the mines in New South Wales the deputy is there at the mouth and sees the men go in. 19. You recommend that there should be a regulation with regard to that report-board ? —I would like to say that we have thirty minutes' walking to do in this mine before we get to that board. 20. Are you going through a danger zone ?—We are going through a part of the mine. 21. Your recommendation is that it be placed at the mouth of the mine ?—Yes. 22. And that a regulation dealing with it be inserted in the Coal-mines Act ?—Yes. I would like to make it clear that we have ample air in the intake, and it would be all right if the Government compelled them, to bring the air into the working-face. 23. What is your next recommendation ? —ln regard to sanitation, I think that the present arrangement is disgraceful, and there should [be fa of some? sort in a blind end. I do not recommend a seat; but if a truck were provided I would compel every man to go in there, and if he did not I would provide a fine. I think also a good deal could be done in the direction of preventing accidents. The best way is to split the pillars. As I said before, I have been working a great many years in the pillars, and I think we are overcrowded, and the system wants improving. I think if these pillars were split, and not so many men put in, there would be greater safety. Where there are so many men it is impossible to hear what is being done.

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24. You cannot tear the warnings ? —No. Before taking pillars out bords should not be driven too wide—say, 12 ft. to 14 ft. 25. And what height I—-I would not recommend more than 10 ft. 26. And what thickness of coal would it be safe to leave overhead—supposing you have a seam a little over 10 ft. ?—That has never struck me. I think 10 ft. is sufficient to work with any safety. There is another matter I should like to mention, and that has reference to the check inspectors. T think they should have more power. 27. Do you agree that they should be required to pass a deputy's examination ?—No. I canjtell from my own experience whether a place is safe or not. 28. That may be so, but can all check inspectors do that ?—Well, a competent man is usually chosen as a check inspector. 29. If a man is competent should he not be able to pass a deputy's examination ?—No. The fact that he is appointed by a body of miners shows that they have confidence in him. 30. But you are asking for very extended powers for the check inspectors % —Well, I do not think they are extended powers. Ido not ask for power to prosecute —only to stop the place. 31. You do not agree with the previous witness as to examinations I—No.1 —No. There is another matter I want to touch on : I think these blocks and anchor-chains should be compulsorily provided — the company should be compelled to put them there. The anchor-chains only apply to the face-jig. 32. The anchor-chain would be a double precaution ?•—Yes. 33. Mr. Dowgray.] If you had only 12 ft. of coal, would you be in favour of working it 10 ft. ? — I think it would be quite safe then. 34. Do you think pillar coal should be limited to 10 ft. ?—Well, not 10 ft. on the lift-up. 35. What height do you consider would be safe to bring back from a split ? —l2 ft. or 13 ft. 36. Do you mean by a pillar being split for the whole of the pillars being run out ?—Certainly. 37. You stated that the fans in the Millerton Mine had stopped : did it cause any inconvenience to the men I—l1 —I understand the men had to be brought back from the faces. There is also another matter I was going to mention. I think working double shifts in pillars is altogether against the safety of the men. If only one shift is worked a man knows the condition of his place, and how the timber is set. In pillars, particularly, I think it would be better to have only one shift. 38. You consider it a source of danger for men to follow other men in timbering % —Yes, certainly ; if only one shift is worked a man knows whether it is secure or not. 39. Have you had any experience of drawing timber ? —Well, I was acting as deputy for a short time, but I did not draw a great number of props. 40. What is your opinion of the method of drawing timber in this district ?—Well, I do not approve of it—it is inclined to be a bit dangerous. 41. What is the method % —You take a hammer and try to knock them out. 42. You do not use a chain and lever ?—No, but I think that is the safest method. I have seen it used in the Old Country. 43. Would you be in favour of timber being drawn by chain and lever ?—Yes, certainly; I consider that is the best style of drawing timber. 44. Mr. Cochrane.] Would you make it clear what you mean as to the distribution of the air round the faces % —Well, I would like to see that amount of air in every working-face. 45. Which amount of air—the whole volume of the split ?—l5O cubic feet. 46. Then, if there were six men working there, would you want 900 ft. ? —I would not go to extremes like that. 47. So long as they get 150 ft. ?—Yes, at each working-place. 48. The Chairman.'] Take one particular split for a district: do you suggest that the whole of that air should circulate round each face, or that separate air should be taken into each separate place ?—I believe that the air should be split. 49. Mr. Cochrane.'] Supposing it is split into three splits ? —There should be 150 ft. for each man. 50. And for it to pass on and do for another section of the mine ?—Yes, if the section is not too big. You can understand the impurities that the air would gather up. 51. Mr. Reed.] You stated that you would be satisfied if there were 150 ft. going into one workingface : you really want 150 ft. in one face, so that it does not matter if there is one man or two men ?— Yes. 52. Supposing there were two men working there one day and three men the next, would you alter the quantity ? —I want 150 ft. for each man. 53. So that if there were two men there would be 300 ft. % —No, I do not mean that. 54. Supposing on one day that working-place had two men in it, would you want 150 ft. or 300 ft. of air in it \ —What I want is 150 ft. per man in the working-face. 55. The quantity of air you want would depend on the number of men: supposing there were ten men, would you require ten times as much air as for one man % —Well, I am not here to advocate anything like that. I simply want the law carried out. 56. Are you satisfied with the existing law I—No,1 —No, I am not. 57. What you want is for the standard quantity of air to circulate to the men where they are ? — Yes, that is my meaning. Then, in regard to baths, one witness has said that four men to one bath would be sufficient. I think that would be too much. I should say there ought to be one bath to every two or three men. A man does not want to wait too long. s** 58. The Chairman.] In regard to baths for metal-mines, we have had a suggestion that there should be one bath to six men, and that stalls should be provided ?—That is too much of a crowd ; a man would have to wait till the fifth man got a bath. 59. You think there should be one bath to every two or three men ?—I said three at the most.

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60. Mr. Dowgray.] What is your opinion as to men starting on the coal ?—I think they should have a certain amount of experience. 61. Would you suggest that a man should have a number of years before getting charge of a working-place ?—The previous witness said two years, and I think that is long enough. 62. He said three months along with an experienced miner ?—I would give them six months. 63. Do you think that would prevent a number of accidents ? —I am certain it would. 64. The Chairman.] You have shot-firers in these mines ? —Yes. 65. How does the system work I—Fairly1—Fairly well. 66. You have had experience of men firing their own shots % —Yes. 67. How do the systems compare —which do you prefer ?—Well, I believe it is in the interests of every one concerned to have shot-firers, providing they are experienced men. Of course, lam speaking of coal-mines only. 68. You do not fire a number of shots at once ?—No. 69. But just one hole at a time ? —Yes. 70. There is nothing to necessitate electrical shot-firers in your mines ?—No. 71. Mr. Parry.'] Do you think it is safer for the handling of explosives to be left in the hands of one man instead of being distributed amongst a number of men I—Yes.1 —Yes. 72. You think it would minimize accidents ?—Yes, certainly. 73. The Chairman.] Does the deputy look after the firing ?—The deputy superintends the amount of powder put it. 74. Mr. Dowgray.] And the system is fairly satisfactory ? —Yes. Thomas Williams sworn and examined. (No. 41.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ? —A coal-miner. 2. With how many years' experience ? —Fifteen. 3. Where I—Ten1 —Ten years here, and also in Victoria. 4. In which mine are you working now ? —Millerton. 5. How long have you been working there ?—Ten years. 6. Do you hold any office in the mine % —No. 7. Or any position in the union ? —No. 8. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission ? —The ventilation of the mine, sanitation, accidents, and more powers for check inspectors. 9. You have heard the evidence given by previous witnesses : do you wish to corroborate or qualify it in any way % —I would qualify the statement of the last witness as to examinations for check inspectors : I do not think they are necessary. 10. Have you anything further to add either from your own observations or after having heard what has been said I—ln1 —In connection with pillar-extraction, I believe that the present system is the cause of many accidents. The contract system for taking out pillars is detrimental to the safe working of the mine, on account of the rushing of the work —a man tries to do much more work than he would under the wage system. 11. Is that the result of the system or the price I—l think it is the result of the system. 12. Supposing they got a better price ? —They would rush the work just the same : it is only human nature. 13. Have you any further suggestions to make % —I recommend that single shifts be worked in pillars. I think the double shift is not safe, because when a man follows another man he does not know the timbering so well as he would if there were only single shifts. 14. How many shifts do you work at present ? —Two. 15. What effect would your suggestion have upon the output of the coal % Could it be worked in any way so that the men could be employed ?—lt is done in other mines—only one shift. 16. Mr. Dowgray.] What is your opinion in connection with the height of these places where pillars are being worked ? —I reckon that the splits should be no higher than 10 ft. In bringing back the lifts you could work them up to 12 ft. I think 12 ft. is high enough. 17. Do you think that if pillars were worked on single shifts it would minimize the number of accidents ? —Yes, on the ground that the men would know exactly what they were doing. ; . 18. You suggested that the wage system be substituted for the contract system : did you mean that to apply to pillars only ? —No, in all the mine. I want to say also that in pillar-working to make a place safe you should be allowed to shoot out the timber, and let it fall if you think it is unsafe. 19. After driving the pillars is it necessary to take out the timber ?—Yes. 20. It is much safer when it is down ?—Yes. 21. The Chairman.] What have you to say in regard to extracting the timber props ? —lt is not too safe. 22. Have you seen the lever-and-chain system % —Yes ; it is the safest way. 23. Mr. Parry.] Have you had any experience of shot-firers in other parts of the country ?—I have in Australia. 24. In quartz-mines as well as in coal-mines ? —Yes, in quartz-mines. 25. Do you approve of that system —to minimize accidents ? —I approve of one man having to look after the explosives. 26. Mr. Reed.] In connection with the maximum height for pillaring, is it 10 ft. or 12 ft. you suggest I—l 2 ft. 27. Do you mean that anything above 12 ft. should be left behind ?—-If you can shoot it down so that it will come into your split you could take it out. 28. If the stuff did not come down would you leave it in the mine ?—Yes.

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29. What about the spontaneous combustion of the coal ?—Well, it is impossible to get that coal. 30. By your system would there not be a great deal more left than is left at the present time ?—No. 31. What is the maximum height you work now ? —You generally take a lift now. 32. So that they are doing it as you suggest ?—No, they are not splitting the pillars. 33. Will you show me where you would put the split in this sketch ? [Sketch submitted to witness, and explained.] 34. Do you favour leaving ribs on pillar-work % —You do not need them. 35. You would specially have to fall up your coal ? —Yes, but you would in any case. John Hendry sworn and examined. (No. 42.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ? —A coal-miner. 2. With how many years' experience ?—Thirty-one. 3. Where ? —Mostly in Scotland, but nine years in New Zealand—in the Westport Coal Company's employ. 4. Where ?—At Milleiton. 5. How long ? —Nine yeans. 6. Do you hold any position in the mine or in any union ?—Not in the mine, but 1 am treasurer of the Granity Miners' Union. 7. You hold a deputy's certificate ?—Yes. 8. Have you acted as deputy here ?—I have been out for a day now and then, but only occasionally, when they have been a man short. 9. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission ? —Ventilation, sanitation, and the prevention of accidents. 10. You have heard the evidence of previous witnesses: have you anything further to say, or do you merely corroborate it ?—Well, there could be a lot said on each side, but I contend that the ventilation should be carried through splits. If there are four or five sections in a mine and so-many men in these splits, the air should be taken in at the intake and passed through each of these splits into the separate sections, sweeping round about the faces. You will always find that any coal-mine which has these splits for, say, three or four sections is better ventilated than one which has not. 11. Then you agree generally with what has been said by previous witnesses ? —As to the fan business", I agree that there should be a man stationed at the fan. At times I have been called out because of the fan stopping. That proves that there should be a man as convenient to the fan ac possible. 12. Now as to accidents I—Well,1 —Well, in connection with the prevention of accidents I would recommend, in regard to the fireman's duties, that he should report at the mine-mouth. A cabin should be erected there, and there should be a board marked "Mine not examined," so that the men could see it. When the fireman returns to the entrance he should turn the board to the other side showing " Mine examined," with the date and his name. I contend that is a safe way, and would prove a great preventive of accidents, because working in our own mine here we have thirty minutes to walk from the entrance to the mine to the deputy's report, and we never see the deputy. If you were early enough you would, but you would require to be half an hour earlier than usual. I contend it would be a great preventive to have this board and to have the deputy there, and be able to speak to him and see if your place was safe. That is the usual method in the Old Country, and it is in the Act here too. I also consider that it would be well to have knockers and stop-blocks on all jigs. The present system of shouting " Eight " is not a good one —men have lost their lives by it. 13. What do you suggest ?—I would suggest that all face-jigs should have stop-blocks and knockers. In regard to pillar-work, the system here is very bad. There are generally five or six pairs of men in these pillars, and they open up both ways, which leaves a big space of ground. We contend that this is a very dangerous system. A safer method would be to open out on one side only. A still safer method would be to split the pillar and bring back everything. Then you would have the closed ground to fall back on. The place should be 9 ft. or 10 ft. at the most, and 8 ft. high. You would have a good safe retreat then. Further, I want to say, in regard to pillar-workings, in a place like NewZealand, where there are a great many men travelling, and where every Tom, Dick, and Harry can be a coal-miner, every precaution should be taken. You might have a soft bottom, and you are trusting these men, with the result that perhaps it comes down on top of you. I would suggest that, in connection with prop-drawing, the safest method would be the Sylvester or chain-and-lever system for drawing props. They are drawn now with an a"xc and pick, which is not a safe method. A man simply walks in and draws the props, and does not know anything about it. They are pretty well decayed, with the result that it all comes down on top of them. As to sanitation, I think the time has arrived when steps ought to be taken to provide sanitation systems for mines. The present state is disgraceful. 14. Can you suggest a remedy % You have heard the idea of the truck suggested by a previous witness ? —Yes, I approve of that. 15. As to these check inspectors, what is your opinion as to these increased powers which are asked for ? —I quite agree that the check inspectors should have more power. 16. What about their qualifications % —Well, as far as the matter of qualifications is concerned, you may take any trade : when a man has served his time you reckon him as qualified to take charge of any branch of that particular trade. I consider that when a man has been working in a mine two years, and a certain part of the time with a practical miner, he is quite qualified. 17. Do you not think he should have studied ?—Yes, it behoves every man to advance himself, but I say that a man who has the practical experience is just as good as those who hold tickets.

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18. Do you not think that if he is qualified he should be able to pass the deputies' examination ? He ought to be able to. 19. Then do you not think he should do so ? —No. You will understand that the management going round every day know when a man is a practical man. 20. But they have nothing to do with the appointment of the check inspectors ? —Certainly not; but the union always appoints the most practical men. They do not appoint a man who has just arrived in the country. 21. Mr. Dowgray.] As to the length of time a man should serve before he takes charge of a workingplace ?—I consider that a man should have two years inside a coal-mine, and not less than six months with a practical miner, before he takes charge of a place himself. 22. You have read the duties and powers of firemen under the Coal-mines Act ?—Yes. 23. What you ask is simply that the law should be carried out ?—Yes. 24. You heard what the previous witness said about anchor-chains : would they prove a safeguard on a face-jig ? —Yes. I consider that for the safety of all concerned, in a mine where there are so many outlets, there should be gates with locks and keys to prevent men wandering in them. Take the previous fire in this mine as an instance : it is said to have been caused by drunken men passing through the mine. 25. You recommend that no man should be allowed to travel the mine except on his ordinary duties ? —Yes; when a fireman closes the mine by turning the board no man should be allowed to go in. 26. Is your recommendation as to air-splits intended to prevent the vitiated air from one section of the mine going into another ?—No ; each section should be ventilated on its own, but not that one fan should be required for each place. 27. Mr. Reed.'] Do you approve of deputies holding certificates ?—Yes. 28. Why ? —Because I believe in the most experienced men holding firemen's tickets—men that have been used to gas. 29. Consequently you would require a certificate that he is competent ?—Yes. 30. Why then should not a man who is to have the power to shut the mine also give some proof of his qualifications ?—You do not understand me. Ido not want any man to close down the mine, but the check inspector should have the power to say that a section should be closed down until the Inspector of Mines arrives. 31. Should the check inspector be given that authority without any proof that he is competent ? — Well, if he had two years' experience and is a practical man. 32. At the Kaitangata Mine the check inspector told us that he had no experience at pillar-work : in such cases as that do you not see the great advantage of a certificate ? —lt is not always the most practical man who holds a mine-manager's or any other sort of certificate. 33. Is it not some proof ? —lt is a little proof. 34. Why should we dispense with that in the case of a check inspector to whom you want to give such powers ?—I say that it is no proof that he is not as qualified as if he held a certificate. 35. The Chairman.] Do you consider that a check inspector ought to be as well qualified to examine the conditions of a mine as a deputy ?—Certainly. 36. You admit that the deputy ought to have a certificate ?—Yes. 37. If one should have that qualification, then why not the other ? —1 consider that a man who has not a ticket is sometimes more practical than a man who has one. I know a man who sat five times for a mine-manager's certificate and. did not get it, and yet he is a practical man. 38. It seems to me that if you are asking for extended powers it would only be reasonable to satisfy, say, the Inspector of Mines or the Inspecting Engineer that you are qualified to exercise those powers with the same degree of knowledge ? —Well, I consider that a man who has put the time in in a coal-mine has that degree of knowledge although not having a ticket. 39. You consider that a check inspector is quite capable of discharging the duties of a deputy without having a deputy's ticket ?—No. 40. Mr. Dowgray.] In the event of an accident taking place—-take, for instance, the case-of a man getting his leg broken at the Millerton Mme —the check inspectors are called in to visit the place, and if they express themselves dissatisfied with the conditions, what takes place ? —There is nothing further done. 41. Does it remain standing until the Inspector comes ? —ln the case of a fatal accident it has to stand ; but, if they are not satisfied, they want the power to stop the place in other cases than fatal accidents. 42. In the event of a fatal accident taking place, whose report is taken ? —The check inspector's. Fbancis Albert Smith sworn and examined. (No. 43.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —An engine-driver. 2. With what qualifications? —A first-class certificate. 3. How long have you held it?— Ten years. 4. What mine do yon work in?- -The Westport Coal Company's Millerton Mine. 5. How long have you been there? —Nine years. 6. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? — Well, that where large plants are working one man should not be left, in charge by himself. 7. Why?— Because it is not safe to be in charge of it, and the responsibility is too great on one man's nervous system. The strain is too great for him to be always by himself. 8. To what kind of plant does that apply —to shafts or an incline? —Where there is a large plant similar to what we have here. There are four large boilers, two compressors, and four fans.

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9. You do not raise or lower men?—No; but we have the ventilation of the mine to attend to in that the fans are driven from the plant. 10. Have you ever known of any accident to happen through having only the one man in charge of the plant?— Yes, I met with an accident some four years ago. 11. How?—l fell off a ladder. 12. But the presence of another man would not have prevented that?—No, but it might have had more serious consequences. 13. Mr. Dowgray .] It is the compressors you work at? —Yes. 14. Is it not necessary to have two men there?— Yes, there are two on the day shift, but only one on the night shift. 15. What would have been the result if an accident such as you describe had happened on the night shift?—lt might block the place. If one man were on and he met with an accident he would not be capable of controlling the machinery. 16. Has any accident occurred at night through one man being left in charge?— Only the one I referred to. Another accident happened on a Sunday. 17. Did you not at one time have a fireman on the night shift? —Yes, when there was less work. 18. When you are firing the boilers oan you see the fan going? —No. 19. You have heard previous witnesses speak of the fans : if they were to stop could you tell? —No—that is, the fan for inside the mine. 20. With the fan at Mine Creek and Mangatini you could not tell? —No. 21. Have you had any experience of the testing of these boilers by hydraulic pressure?— Well, my experience is very limited; but we test them. 22. Do you not feel more confident after they have been tested by the hydraulic test than otherwise? —Yes, in a sense, though if it is tested with hydraulic it would probably strain it more; but it would be hard to say what would be the consequences afterwards. 23. What pressuredo you usually put on with the hydraulic power?— From 150 to 200. 24. What is the working pressure?—loo. 25. Do you not think that if the boilers are going to burst at all it would be better if they did so under the test than otherwise?—l do not know. 26. The boilers are tested here by the hydraulic test?— Yes. 27. Mr. Parry. ] Is there any one working in close proximity to where you are working? —No, the plant is by itself. 28. The During the night shift there is no one else within call? —Well, the telephone is within call. 29. Mr. Parry .] What is your opinion of the responsibility on one driver, when lowering and winding men, where a great number of men are working?—l have never had much experience of that myself, because my certificate is only a stationary-engine driver's certificate. 30. Do you. think there is any great risk? —My opinion is that it would be a great nervous strain on a man, but I do not know how long they work. 31. Mr. Cochrane. ] You stated that if the fans were stopped there would be no indication at the compressors : can you suggest any apparatus that would give an indication? —No. 32. Mr. Dowgray.] You say there are two men on the day shift, but only one on the night shift: what is the difference? The fans are working just the same. Have you the same pressure to keep up on the night shift as on the day shift?— Yes. 33. Can you give us any explanation of it?— There is a bit of winding which requires one extra compressor for the day shift. 34. Mr. Molineaux.] Where do you consider the actual danger to the driver comes in? —The actual danger comes in in case of accident. 35. What sort of accident?— There are many kinds. A man might get scalded, or burnt, or get hurt in one way or another; in going down the steps he might fall. 36. Do these compressors require your constant attention? —They do, in a sense. You must look round how and again, because several tilings might happen. 37. What have you to do at the compressors while you are on shift?— Oil up and look round the bolts. 38. How often? —Once or twice a shift. 39. And that machinery is well guarded with guard-rails and shields over any exposed places? —Yes. 40. So that if you only go round once or twice you have ample time to go round the boilers? Are you using the whole four boilers at night ?—Yes. 41. You complain more of the amount of work that there is to do on the night shift rather than the liability to accident? —No, it is the liability to accident. A man is not safe there. Many things might happen. Seddonville (Empire Hotel). —10th October, 1911. James Newton examined. (No, 44.) 1. The Chairman.] You have some documents to put in regarding this mine?— Yes, a list of fatal and serious accidents, 1908 to 1911, and air-measurements taken in the mine on the 15th May, 1911. [Exhibit 19 put in.]

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- -~ John Mackie sworn and examined. (No. 45.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. With how many years' experience?— Thirty. 3. Where?—ln Scotland. 4. How long have you been working in New Zealand ? —Two years. 5. Where?— All the time in the Seddonville Mine. 6. Do you hold any office in the mine? —No. 7. Or in the union? —I am a check inspector and an executive member. 8. What is the membership of your union?— About ninety-four. 9. Does that represent all the miners in the field?— Yes, and the workmen about the mine. 10. Have you discussed with the members and the executive the matters which you wish to bring before the Commission ? —Yes. 11. And they are unanimous? —Yes. 12. What are these matters? —The first one is ventilation. We think it would be advisable to have 150 ft. of air for each man passing into the working-face, and where sections are large we would recommend the system of splits. ' The next thing is as to sanitary arrangements. We propose to put a truck in the different sections, and that disinfectants should be kept there. 13. Have you anything further to suggest? —Yes, a separate bath should be provided for each miner. 14. We have had various suggestions on that point: in some places they say one bath for every six miners, and in others one bath for every three; now you say one for each. Do you want hot or cold baths? —Hot and cold. 15. Plunge or shower? —You should be able to use them either way. I mean compulsory baths, of course. 16. You would make it compulsory upon the men to use them?— Yes; if they are provided they should be used by every man. Then we want the wage system adopted instead of the competitive system, for the safety of the miners. 17. In what way would that affect the safety of the men? —It would keep them from rushing and grasping after money. 18. Have you anything further to suggest for the safety of the miners and the prevention of accidents ? —Yes, that the pillars should be split as a preventive of accidents. 19. What size are the pillars?—A chain each way. 20. You recommend that they be split ? —Yes. 21. In all cases, independent of what the roof is like? —It would be safe in any case, because the bords are wide. If you have a narrow split you would have a better retreat. 22. You draw your timber by explosive : you do not use either the hammer or the chain and lever? —W T e prefer the explosive because it is not so dangerous. 23. But in cases where you want to save as much timber as possible, what would be the best method? —You cannot save much timber in pillar-working. 24-. Do you not save timber when you draw it with the chain?— There is not much timber saved here, at any rate. 25. Have you any further suggestion to offer? —We would recommend the single shift in mines, to give the place time to rest before the miners come back, especially in pillar-work. 26. What advantage is that?—lt gives the roof time to settle and time to break off the pillar. When it is always going on it breaks over the pillar and is always on the move. 27. Anything further? —That check inspectors should have the power to prosecute if their demands are not complied with within a reasonable time. 28. For what offences?— Anything that is covered by the Mining Regulations. 29. Would you be in favour of check inspectors submitting to examinations before getting such powers?—lt depends upon the nature of the examination. 30. Something in the nature of the deputy's examination. You see, supposing you find a place dangerous from gas and you want to give the inspector power to prosecute, he ought to be in a position to speak with some knowledge on the subject?—Of course, that has not been discussed by us. I can only give an expression of my own opinion. 31. You think that it would not be unreasonable to ask them to submit to an examination, at any rate, as high as a deputy's?— Well, they should have a certain amount of a general knowledge of the working of a mine. 32. Have you any other suggestions?— That no bord should be broken away more than 12 ft. Of course, I admit there are none in our mine that are broken away more than that. Further, we think that each man should have a report from, the examiner of the mine before passing in, as they do at Home; a cabin should be erected for the purpose. 33. So that the deputy should be in attendance at the mine-mouth? —Yes; that is for the general safety of the men. These are all the matters upon which lam authorized to speak. 34. Mr. Dowgray .] In regard to your request that the check inspectors should have the power to prosecute, are you aware that you are asking for greater powers than the Inspector of Mines has at present? —I do not know the powers of the Inspector of Mines. 35. In some other places they have suggested that the check inspector should have the power to stop a place until the Inspector of Mines has seen it, and for the Inspector of Mines to have the power to prosecute?— That almost amounts to the same thing. 36. The Chairman.'] No, the difference is that the Inspector of Mines is a duly qualified and certificated mine-manager, and that is why I suggested the examination. If you are going to ask for powers to prosecute, the person who is to prosecute should be an independent person and have some qualification? —Yes, of course, he must have qualification. 37. You think it would meet the case if the check inspector had the power to temporarily stop the place and call upon the Inspector of Mines and ask for a prosecution ?—I think that would meet the case.

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38. If the Inspector of Mines had the power to prosecute summarily?—lf he had that power 1 think it would amount to the same thing. 39. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you ever studied the question of now men starting on the coal.' You are familiar with the amount of unskilled labour in this country. Have you considered the question of men having to put in a certain time in a mine before taking charge of a place?—l think it is desirable that a man should have a knowledge of a mine first. 40. Some have suggested two years in a mine, and three or six months with an experienced miner? —[ think the men would be none the worse for having to have two years' experience in the mine. There would then be not so much danger to other people. 41. So you would recommend that a clause be inserted in the Coal-mines Act that they should have two years' experience in the mine? —Yes, two years' experience in the mine—that is, if they have had no previous experience. 42. Should they have a certificate to that effect? —Of course, they could get that from a union, or an employer, or a manager. 43. What is your opinion about the bells and stop-blocks being put on these jigs? —I think they should be on all jigs. 44. In this district they are usually used, although it is not in the Coal-mines Act? —I think it should be embodied in the Act, because a man might be passing along the bottom of the jig and cry " Right " about something else, and so cause disaster. 45. Have you ever worked in any place in the Old Country where they used anchor chains on the face-jigs?—l have used a prop, but Ido not think it was an anchor. 46. You know those anchor chains? —If there was a hood that would prevent the truck running away before it was ready for the jig it would be a good thing. 47. Mr. You said that for sanitary purposes you would recommend a truck : would you have it fitted as a closet, or how would it be used? —I suppose there would be a truck with disinfectants provided, and it would be loaded on to the truck. 48. Do you mean a square wooden truck?—An iron truck. 49. And how would it be used? —The truck is there, and there is a place marked off and disinfectants provided, and it shovelled into the truck, w T hich is emptied regularly. 50. Then, as to baths, you said that separate baths should be provided for each miner : do not you think that that might be overloading the thing, and you might not get what you want, as you possibly would if you asked for less?— There would only be the initial outlay. One man could look after them. 51. Would it not mean four times the outlay if there were four times as many baths? —There would only be a partition between the baths. 52. You would be satisfied with shower-baths?— Yes, bath and showers. 53. In regard to the examination of the mine and the different men being told the result of that examination, is that not done at present?—No, it is not a question of the men knowing the result of the examination. Each man passing the cabin should ask "Is it right? " and the man in the cabin should answer. 54. Is that done at present?—No, not here. 55. But is there not a board?— Yes; but that board might be turned, and the man might not be there at all. 56. What you want is verbal communication between the examiner and the men?— Yes. 57. Mr. Seed.] You are recommending the wage system because of accidents : have there been any accidents in the pillars here? —I do not think so. 58. So that you propose this for imaginary accidents? —No, it is not for imaginary accidents. We know quite well that there is more rush with the men working under the competitive system. 59. The last report of Mr. James, the mine-manager, stated that the hewers here earned on an average 17s. per shift : do you not think that if the miners had a daily wage they would earn less? —That might be, but they would be safer. There will be more pillars worked now. 60. Is not this mine rapidly approaching total exhaustion ? —There is a good bit of coal in it if it is worked rightly. 61. Would the miners be satisfied to lose the wages on that account? —I do not know, but they have agreed to this recommendation, at any rate. It is not for me to say. 62. What is the current rate of wages for miners working here?— The award fixes it at 12s. 63. So that you would be losing ss. a day? —It looks like that, but you would not be losing so much in the end. 64. About the miners coming to New Zealand and having to serve a certain period before being allowed to take charge of a place, do you not think that such a regulation would be harsh on them if they were experienced miners? They would not know of this regulation, and would not bring certificates? —But it could be published. 65. But the miners at Home do not know where New Zealand is even?— They are quite well acquainted with it in a certain line. 66. It would be almost impossible for a man to write to his boss at Home for whom he worked ? —Of course, we could rectify that by getting a letter from the union at Home. 67. But a man would lose three months by that method? —But the existence of such a provision would soon be spread over all the unions in the world. 68. Then, would you differentiate between the lignite-pits and the other mines? Would miners experienced with gases and in fiery mines have equal privileges? —They should all have the same powers. 69. You would let a man go into a fiery mine who had had no experience of them?— There are some men who have been in fiery mines who have never seen fire in them. 70. Then they could not be very fiery?— But they might not be in places where the fire was. 71. Mr. Dowgray.'] Is it not the custom for miners to ask for references in this country?— Yes, they have a line from each union, as a rule. 72. And also from the managers?— Yes. 17—C, 4.

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Thomas Quinn sworn and examined. (No. 46.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. With how many years' experience'l- —About twenty-five years. 3. Where did you get your experience'; —At Denniston, Millerton, Cardiff Mine, Mokihinui Mine, and the State mine. 4. Do you hold any office? —I am a check inspector under the union. 5. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? —As to ventilation. 6. The same subjects as have been discussed by the last witness? — Yen. 7. Do you corroborate his evidence? —Yes. 8. Have you anything to add? —In regard to sanitation, 1 wish to see it made compulsory for the men to use the sanitary arrangements, for the reason that, in our mine here, although it is only perhaps 30 or 40 yard's for the men to go outside, they simply step into a corner-, and I think they should be compelled to protect themselves. 9. As to baths, have you anything to say? —1 wish to see a system of baths in vogue, and that also should be made compulsory upon the men. 10. And you agree that there should be one bath for each man ? —Yes. 11. Would that not be a heavy tax? —I do not think so. 12. Have you anything to suggest with regard to pillar-working?—! must say that 1 have worked on pillars in other mines as well as here, and I must honestly say that in the Seddonville Mine we have had no serious accidents in pillar-workings; but, of course, we have not had the X rays on the matter to show what is going to happen in the future. 13 Do you split your pillars?-—Yes. I think the wage system would be far better than the competitive system, because I believe that the men rush into many places to fill the trucks where they would put up props if they were working on the wage system. They would then make safety their first consideration, and they do not do that now. I would like to add that in the splitting of the pillars they should not be more than 12 ft. wide. . ' ~ • fOM 14 What width have you here?—At odd times they run to the full bord width—that is, 18 it. —and Ido not think that is conducive to the safety of the mine. The crush is too great on top. 15 What size are the pillars?— The block of coal is about 17 yards. They are very irregular. They are never more than 22 yards from centre to centre. In breaking away bords 1 would say that they should never be more than 12 ft. wide. We know that, in regard to pillar-extraction here a while ago they were broken away "16 ft. to 18 ft., and that has caused a great deal of trouble and also a great loss of coal, which is a loss to the country. The other system would provide greater safety for the men. With regard to the single shift, my opinion is that with a single shift a man would come back to his pillar in the morning and know more about it than if another man had been working it and probably left a hanging shot which would be dangerous. We recommend the single shift for that reason. 16. How would that affect the output of the mine?— Well, in a field of any extent it would not affect it at all, because they would put on more haulage gear. _ 17 Mr Dowgray 1 What is your opinion about the check inspectors being able to examine the mine only once a month?—l think they should be able to examine it as often as they think fit, if anything crops up to require an inspection. 18 Are you of the same opinion as the previous witness that check inspectors should have the power to prosecute I—Tee, if matters complained of are not seen to within a reasonable time. 19. Well; you are asking for more power than the Inspector of Mines has?— Then, more shame tn the Government for not giving the Inspector that power ! 20 Would it not meet the case if the check inspector had the power to stop the place until it was seen by the Inspector of Mines?— Yes, that would help the matter. 21 What is your opinion in regard to new hands coming and starting on coal?— Well, 1 am of opinion that if a man had two years' experience in these mines he would be fit to take any See I have seen, and I have worked in Millerton Mine when it was very gaseous. T do not think I walmore than four or five hours there before 1 was competent to carry a lamp and look after my own safety. Of course, I had worked for fifteen years m coal-mines at that time. 22 As regards the idea that a man should have two years' experience, do you think any man is qualified to be a miner?—No, there are any amount of men who would never be qualified to be mme 23 Are yon in favour of any time being fixed?— Yes, two years 24' Mr 'Cochrane.] What do you mean by your suggestion that bords should be broken away 12 ft i-Simpiy that they should be broken away that distance, and then they could be widened Uftel 95 a i/r Heed 1 As regards the certificate which you say a miner should bring to New Zealand who should grant it the manager or the union at the place where he left?-I suppose that would tea matter for the man himself. It could be accepted from either the manager or the union, so long as he can show something in writing.. Si To n Ut Sf :houir t he d rden;l e be satisfactory-to the Inspector of Mines?-Yes, or the manager. 28 You are a check inspector? —Yes. 29 How lons have you been a check inspector ?—Two years. . S: Have you any idea how many inspections you have made in those two years ?-I think ab ° U 3l° U And the law permitted you to make twenty-four ?—Yes. 32. So that you have not taken advantage of the law !— No. 33. And yet "you are asking for more powers?— Yes,

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34. Do you think that once a month is ample for inspections? —No; I know there are plenty of mines where that is not sufficient, but for this mine it is quite enough. 35. Now, on the four inspections you have made, how did you find things?—We might have found slight discrepancies, such as timbering, but on the whole it has been very fair. James Gumming sworn and examined. (No. 16a.) 1. The Chairman . j What are yon?—A miner, and president of the miners' union. 2. What is the strength of your union'—Well, it fluctuates a little, but we have on the books about ninety-four or ninety-six. 3. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? —In the main 1 corroborate the evidence given by the check inspectors. 4. You are working in the mine now ?—Yes. 5. What experience have you had in mining?— Probably twenty years. G. Where—all in this district?—No, in Victoria, Tasmania, and in the Millerton, Blackball. State, and Old Cardiff Mines. 7. Have you anything to add to the evidence of the previous witnesses I—Not1 —Not as Ear as ventilation is concerned. 1 would like, however, to touch upon the subject of pillar-working and the wage system. I would like to contradict the statement of Mr. Reed that the average earnings of the miners here is lis. per day. The figure quoted by him from the mine-manager's report is the gross earnings of the men. 'There is nothing deducted from that for ammunition, explosives, oil, tools, and so on, and ;t is incorrect to say that their average earnings are J 7s. a day. I take exception to that quotation from the mine-manager's report. 8. You say that 17s. does not take into account the offtakes? —No, for explosives, tools, and other incidental expenses. 9. What would they have clear after those deductions were made?—lt would bring it down considerably. 1 cannot say what it would amount to for each pair of men. Some men would use more explosives than others. From the different sources it would probably be reduced by Is. 3d. or Is. 6d. per day. 10. Even that would be better than 12s. day wages?— That would be very foolish for me to say. 11. Of course, it is an element for us to consider in making a recommendation on the subject. If it appears to the Commission to be advisable to recommend the abolition of the competitive system, then we would have to consider the matter both from the point of wage earnings and the output of the mine?— Yes. But the output of the mine has nothing to do with us; we have to look after our own safety. 12. But perhaps it would be crippling the industry , .'—We have ourselves to consider, and human safety is the first thing to be taken into account. 13. You cannot give us any idea as to how either the wage earnings or the mine-output would be affected by the change?—No, I am not prepared to go into that. I would like to reply to a question put by Mr. Reed to one of our witnesses with regard to the safety of the pillars, and the fact that there have been no accidents. The manager here has a privilege which the manager of no other mine has —that is, to pick his men for these places. He can pick his men and see that they are all competent to go into the pillars, and only those men go into the cavilling ballot. There are only certain men who go into the ballot for those dangerous places. I only wish to say that as a reason why there has been no accidents in this mine. I would like also to reply to another question as to the men having qualifications. We have in our agreement a provision whereby if we do not know any man he can be looked after. He may be a quartz-miner, but not a coal-miner. I think any manager can tell at a glance, on seeing a man working, whether he is a practical miner or not. 14. Well, it could be arranged this way : either that he should have to produce testimonials of service or to satisfy some one that he is competent?— Well, that is just the same as a miner bringing a clearance to the union. He could bring the same recommendation on his union clearance. 15. But, supposing he came out from Home without anything in writing, he might simply go into the mine and show that he understands his business?— Yes, that is quite right. I would also just like to elaborate as to baths; I think they should be brought into force. With the otherwitnesses, 1 advocate that there should be a bath for every person. I consider that if anybody is entitled to a bath it is the working-man The cost is not a matter for vs —it is for the cleanliness of the men. You will find that miners' homes are generally small, and there are children about, and his mining clothes should be washed somewhere else. We could do quite well without that in our homes. lam out against the present system, and would like to see this new idea put into force. Then, in regard to the wage matter, when a man goes into a mine he has a perfect right to know what he is going to get. 16. Mr. Dowgray.~\ In connection with the abolition of piecework, or the contract system, the men have discussed this?— Yes. 17. And they know that your agreement is for 12s. a day? —Yes. 18. And they would prefer 12s. a day for the matter of safety? —Yes, provided there is work for them. 19. Mr. Parry.] Do you think the workmen's inspectors should be allowed to go into the mine at any time? —Yes.. 20. What is your opinion with regard to the extension of the powers of workmen's inspectors? —I consider that if the check inspectors thought it was necessary for them to inspect the mine, and they found something which after their report was not rectified, they should have the power to sue llie management for it. As one of the witnesses has stated, they have only made four inspections here during the last two years, but you never know when anything is going to crop up, and I think they should have the power to inspect the mine whenever they think fit.

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21. As regards the stopping of a place, which has been advocated at different places, you think that where the workmen's inspector finds anything that is likely to prove dangerous, and if it is not rectified, he should be allowed to stop the place until the Mining Inspector is called in?— Yes, I do. 22. You think that power is very essential? —Yes; and 1 would add that, if such a thing had to be done to wait till the Inspector came, those men should be paid by the company for the time lost by them. 23. That would be practically substituted in place of prosecuting?— Yes. 24. Mr. Beed.] In regard to the matter of baths, in the Waihi and Grand Junction Mines at Waihi they are putting up hot showers: would you approve of that in preference to bath-tubs? It does not entail so much capital expenditure, and it would not mean such an extreme cost?—Of course, where it is a case of a coal-miner versus a gold-miner, there is no comparison between the dirt on the gold-miner and that on a coal-miner. There is a great deal of difference. 25. In Germany and France showers are used, with a concrete floor? —Well, they have baths instituted in the State mine in Victoria. 26. Showers or tubs?— Bath-tubs, so 1 am informed. You go to work in your workaday clothes and come home in them. I prefer the bath. 27. In a large mine employing a hundred and fifty men on a shift, or two hundred men, that would mean two hundred tubs?—lt would, I admit. 28. And who would provide the towels? —Probably the men would provide them. They could carry them as they do their crib. 29. As regards the clothes being left behind, what you suggest is the practice in gold-mines. In regard to washing and keeping the clothes clean, who should do that? —It should be done by a scientific process by the company. 30. And the company to pay for washing the men's clothes?— lt is a big matter to go into the bed-rock of the subject. Of course, the men are willing to meet the employers, but it is no use to go into the matter until the main point is established. As far as lam concerned, I would not mind paying for them to be washed, as long as they were done away from my place. I would pay my share. The miners could contribute a certain amount towards the cost of washing the clothes. This thing emanated from the gold-mining. The companies wanted the men to change at the mine, so that they could not take away anything that did not belong to them. 31. Partly, perhaps—but in mines where there is no specimen stone. The law compels it. You know that?—Yes.

Denjvlstou (Odd Fellows' Hall). —10th October, 1911. James Newton examined. (No. 47.) 1. The Chairman.] You have some tables to put in in connection with the mines here, have you not?— Yes, I have prepared three tables showing (1) air-measurements taken on 21st and 22nd September, 1908; (2) fatal and serious accidents from 1905 to 1907; and (3) fatal and serious accidents from 1908 to September, 1911. [Exhibit 20 put in.] Johm Chapelhow sworn and examined. (No. 48.) J. The Chairman.} You are a miner?— Yes, and secretary of the Denniston Coal-miners' Union. 2. How many years' experience have you had as a miner? —About twenty-four or twenty-five. 3. Wheie? — ln Cumberland, England, and at Denniston. 4. Do you hold any office at the mines?—l am check inspector for both mines, Ironbridge and Coalbrookdale. 5. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? —I wish to deal with all the matters in connection with which you are inquiring, and also one or two others. 6. What have you to say in regard to ventilation? —I think that every miner should be supplied with 150 cubic feet of air at his working-face. 7. Have you anything to suggest as to a system of ventilation?—Xothing, except that each section should get its own fresh air and have its own return. 8. So that the air should not pass through another section? —Yes. 9. Now, as to sanitation? —I consider that it is absolutely essential that the truck system should be provided. 10. Do you think the truck system is the best? —Yes, by far. 11. As to bath-houses and change-houses? —I think each mine should be provided with bathhouses. 12. And each man with a separate bath?— Yes, a stall closed off. I do not see why a. miner should bath before a crowd; they do not allow it in any other place. 13. Then, have you any suggestions to make in regard to the prevention of accidents? —I would suggest that the whole of the men be on the day-wage system. 14. How would that minimize accidents? —They would not have to rush their work to make a living. 15. You blame the contract system for the rush, and consequently for the accidents : is that to be attributed to the system or the price? Supposing they got a higher price? —There would be the same incentive for the men to rush.

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16. Well, how do you think the change to the wage system would affect the earning-capacity of the workiileu or the output of the mine?--The output might be a little less for a while until they got propeily into the working of the system. They may get more coal out of the mine in a given time under the present system, but it probably ruins the section; whereas if they had the day-wage system it might take longer, but they would get more coal out of the same section. 17. They would get more coal out, though it would be spread over a longer period?— Yes, probably. 18. Then do you think the average daily output under the wage system would be equal to that under the contract system?—No, the rush would not be there. 19. Of course, we are not dealing with the industrial aspect of the matter? —No. 20. We have to inquire into the effect that any change might have, and the industrial effect is only an incidental one. We are here to investigate the causes of accidents. Now, have you any other suggestion to offer in regard to the sources of danger in connection with methods of working'/ —Yes, in regard to pillar-work. 1 think no place should be wider than 12 ft., and not higher than 8 ft. We have a practical illustration of that, which I had intended to show the Commissioners this morning had they visited the mine. 21. What is the average size of the pillars now? —About 15 or 16 yards. 22. And the average height?— Between 9 ft. and 10ft. In some places it is less where it is heavily timbered. 23. Well, in some places we have had a recommendation that a layer of coal be left overhead, and in others that it should be taken down to the stone?-—lf the coal was of such a height to allow this being done it would be much better to leave coal as a roof. 24-. What would be a safe quantity of coal to be left up? —It would depend upon the seam. The coal will give better warning than any stone. There is no doubt it would be better to leave the coal up if the height of the seam would allow that to be done. 25. Have you any suggestions to make as to explosives?— No. 26. You have a satisfactory system of dealing with the explosives in this mine?— Yes. 27. Is there anything further you wish to deal with? —There is one thing which should be looked into, and that is the robbing of a section back to its main hauiage-road. If you have a section of coal further in I reckon no section should be robbed within two pillars' length of its main haulage-road. 28. What is the danger?—lf you rob a place back and a fire starts you have only one road into the section. It is much safer to keep two roads. I also think the communication between two headings should not be more than one and a half pillar-lengths apart. There should be a cutthrough every one and a half pillar-lengths not only for ventilation purposes, but for communication between the two headings. 29. Mr. T)owgray.~\ What is your opinion of the law as it relates to check inspectors?— Well, they seem to have no standing whatever. 30. Have you any suggestions to make in regard to check inspectors I—l should say that they should have more power. I think the Inspector of Mines should have the power to prosecute on the recommendation of a check inspector, or where there was a dispute. 31. What powers do you think the check inspectors should have?— They should have the power to call in the Inspector of Mines, and they should also have the power to go into the mine at any time. ■32. It has been suggested at other places that they should have the power to stop places?— Yes, I agree w r ith that —where they consider the places unsafe. 33. Has the matter of attendance at fans cropped up here? —No, we have never heard of a fan stopping. 34. It has never caused any inconvenience? —Not that I am aware of. 35. You do not think a fan left without an attendant is a source of danger?—lt might be. The engine could be going without the fan going. I think there should be an attendant at them, because the whole of the mine depends upon the fans. 36. In regard to the firemen's reports : when the men are proceeding to their work in the morning, what intimation do they get that their places are safe ? —Well, they see the fireman come out, and he signs the board when he comes out, and if there were danger in any man's place he. would stop it. 37. How would he tell him?- —He would tell the man and put a board across the place. T think that every man should ask the fireman before he goes in whether his place is safe or not. 38. A suggestion has been made to us in other places about bells on jigs : have you bells on all jigs? —We have bells on a lot of them—on the majority, in fact. I do not think there are bells (in the short jigs. 39. Do you think it would be an improvement on the present system?— Yes, except for the face-jigs, and perhaps even then it would be better. 40. In connection with face-jigs it has been suggested that an anchor chain should be added? —Yes, that should be done. 41. From your experience in New Zealand, what is your opinion of men starting on the coal without having any previous experience?—l think that a man should have two years' experience in a mine before starting on the coal at all, and before he gets a place to himself he should have, say, six months with an experienced miner. 42. Mr. Parry.] Have you had any experience of taking temperatures in a mine? —No, not personally. I have worked in a place where the temperature was taken. +3. Have the temperatures been taken in these mines by the check inspectors?—No, not by us. 14. In which part of the mine do you consider most accidents take place —driving headings or extracting pillars? —It would be hard to say from memory.

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45. It has been suggested that pillar-extraction be done on the day-wage system : do you contend that the whole of the mine should be worked on that system, with a view to minimizing accidents?— Yes. 46. The Chairman.] With regard to the extended powers for check, inspectors, would you be in favour of their submitting themselves to examination?— No. 1 think, if they have a good general knowledge and plenty of practical experience, that should serve the purpose. 47. But you ask for the power to stop a place, and in stopping that place you take on yourself the responsibility of deciding that it is dangerous. Do you not think that if you want that power that it is only fair that you should show by passing an examination that you are qualified to decide the matter I—l think the check inspector would show that he is qualified by being appointed. 48. How?- -Well, they would not appoint a man who did not have the qualification. 49. Well, a deputy or fireman lias to undergo an examination. What you want, practically, is to put the check inspector against the fireman. Do you not think lie should pass some examination, and be on the same level from a technical point of view as the man against whom he is pitted? —Not necessarily. Because the fireman or deputy has a certificate it is not to say that lie is the cleverest. There is no time specified that he shall have served before he applies for a ticket, and the other man might have a good general knowledge in any work about the mine. 50. But may not the deputy have the game practical knowledge as the other man, but not have the certificate as well to show that lie is competent?— Well, J would not exchange views with a lot of them. 51. But you are one of the check inspectors, and if that power is given to all check inspectors what is going to show that they have any technical knowledge?—l think it should be left to the men; they would not appoint check inspectors who are not competent. 52. If a man is competent he should not have any difficulty in passing the examination?— But there are lots of things in a deputy's examination which he does not bother about —such as first aid, for instance. 53. You do not recommend the examination? —No. 1 omitted to state that 1 consider we should have back travelling-roads independent of the main haulage-road. Also, in regard to the ropes, 1 think the ropes are run rather too fast at times. There should be a speed-limit for haulage-ropes. With the present rate of running a lad might lose his hand or fingers. 54. Mr. Dowgray.~\ What limit would you suggest? —About two miles and a half an hour. 55. Have you any idea of the speed they go now?—No, unfortunately, I have not; but it appears that the} 7 go too fast for a boy. 56. Is that the cause of accidents? —Well, it might prevent an accident if the speed was limited and uniform. 57. The Chairman.] Can you ascertain the present average speed? Can you ascertain what would be considered an excessive speed for a rope to travel at? —Later i could do so arid send it on to the Commission. JAMBS FISHBB sworn and examined. (No. 49.) 1. The Chairman.\ What are you? —A miner, and president of the Denniston Coal-miners" Union. 2. How many years' experience have you had as a miner? —Twenty years. 3. Where? —Mostly here. 4. Are you a check inspector? —No. 5. Do you occupy any office in the mine? —No. 6. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? —I would like to go into the whole of the matters generally. 7. You have heard the evidence of the last witness : do you corroborate it generally?— Yes. 8. Do you want to add anything to what he has said? —In regard to the check inspectors, I consider that they should be paid by the Government, and they should have the power to stop a place if they considered it necessary to do so. 0. What do you think of the examination question ? —I would not listen to it at all. 10. If you want them to be paid by the Government, and be practically Government servants in the pay "of the State, why should they not qualify themselves by examination? —1 do not go much on a ticket myself. There are some who have tickets whom I would be very sorry to make check, inspectors. 11. But the miners would still have the right to appoint their check inspectors. Supposing it was arranged so that, before the paid the check inspectors, they must pass an examination equivalent, say, to the deputy's examination? —No, I would not have that ai all. 12 Have you anything further to advance? —We have had to stop a place before. We had no power to do so, but we did, because it was unsafe. 13 Have you anything to say in regard to ventilation further than was said by the last witness?— No. . 14. Mr. Doivgray.] You said that you have had occasion to stop a-place. t<or what reason i — Because it was dangerous. 15. The roof was dangerous?— Yes. 16. Did the company have any objection to your stopping it? —No. It closed shortly after we stopped it. 17. So that your views were accepted on that occasion ? —Yes. 18. Mr. Fletcher.] Did you report that dangerous place to the manager?— Yes, the check inspectors did so on two or three occasions. 19 The Chairman.] Have you anything to say on prevention of accidents? —I think the whole mine should be on shift work.

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20 Mr. Dowgray] Have you any idea of the number of minor accidents that occur in this colherj L-l could not tell you offhand, but the Mines Department has the reports on then, If you compare the accidents .low with those of fourteen or fifteen years ago, you will find there are a great many more nowadays. I am judging from the payments out of the medical fund. It used to he ,£4 or £5 a fortnight, and now it goes up to £40 or .£5O a fortnight beneW socSyS^""-' 1 wMoh PUt the meU On the books " f *>" 22. Mr. Dowgray.] How does the number of men employed compare?—H Is about the same Zα' v f y °" attribute tll( ' in accidents?--The men had more experience then U. You think it is the unskilled labour which is the cause J— lt is partly the cause, though our fatal accidents happen mostly to skilled men. That is the result of the rush in the work 2j. Is it customary for the miners to endeavour to make a certain amount each day?— Yes they have to make a living, and with the pillars it has to be a bit dangerous before they can make anything out of it. . • 26. So that under the present system the hard safe working does not pay?—-No 27. Mr. Fletcher.} Were you working here when the Compensation Act was passed?— Yes. 2.5. Have you any idea how much money was paid out for accidents prior to that? No I could not say. Of course, it was a great deal less than it is now. We do not attribute the accidents to the Compensation Act. 29. Do you know how much was paid out of the Accident Fund then !- -No, but it was smaller fourteen or fifteen years ago. I could not give you the exact figures. 30. At Millerton it was about .£4O a year' ten years ago, and as soon as the Compensation Act came into force it rose to £40 a month?—Do you think they get hurt on purpose? 31. Mr. Parry.} Do you think the conditions have improved this last six months?—No, they are about the same. They have improved this last week or two, though. 32. Mr. Dowgray.] Then the Commission has accomplished something?— Yes. Robert Leonard Knight sworn and examined. (No. 50.) 1. The Chairman.} What are you?—A miner, and check inspector for the Cascade Mine. 2. How many years' experience have you had as a miner?— Fifteen. 3. Where did you gain your experience?—ln Western Australia, Victoria, and New Zealand. 4. Upon what matters do you wish to speak?— The whole of the matters covered by the Commission. 5. You have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses : have you anything to add to it? No; 1 corroborate everything that lias been brought forward. I would like to say a word or two in regard to the general safety of the men. No bords should be broken away more than 12 ft. wide. I say that no pillar should be split more than 12ft. wide and Bft, high; 'you could contend with the roof then. 1 would also recommend a single shift throughout the mine, except in headings. I do not wish to interfere with the development of the mine at all, but every other place should be worked with one shift. (>. Mr. Dowgray. ] Do you think the double shift on pillars is a source of danger? Yes. 7. Would you explain to the Commission your reasons for saying so?—ln double shifts in pillars, when a man leaves his pillar in the afternoon it might lie all' working, and if another man has to follow him in the same pillar he is running his head into danger; but if a pillar is left it will quieten down. And then, if it is worked on a single shift, the man would know how lie'set his timber. 8. What is the system of breaking away bords just now? —Some of them are broken away 12 ft. wide and then widened out, and some are broken away 18ft. wide. According to the agreement the management can decide that. 9. ft is not customary to break them away 12 ft. ?—No. 10. You suggest that it should be made compulsory? —Yes. 11. How does the system of work here compare with that in Western Australia?-—1 cannot say. I did not work in coal-mines in Western Australia. 12. Mr. Parry.] What is your opinion of men who depend upon the amount of material got being allowed to use or handle dynamite?—l am of opinion that if a man lias to depend upon the tonnage he ought to be allowed to use the dynamite himself. He lias had enough experience, ami ought to be allowed to fire the shots. 13. Do you think it would tend to minimize accidents if the handling and using of dynamite were confined to one man alone?— No. 14. Have you had any experience of mining in any other parts of the country?— Yes. 15. You have worked in Western Australia in the gold-mines?— Yes, and in Victoria. I have fired thirty holes myself in one round. IC. With fuse?— Yes. 17. How did you spit them? —With a piece of dynamite, with fuse of different lengths. 18. And you fired thirty holes with safety?— Yes. 19. What do you think is a fair number of holes to tire with safety?— For absolute safety 1 would not go above six 20. What is your opinion of a man having a certain amount of experience before taking charge of a face?—He should have two years' experience. 21. You think that is essential to minimize accidents?— Yes. 22. What is your opinion as to the experience a man should have before being allowed to handle dynamite?— You do not want much experience for that. A man very soon gets into the use of it. 23. Mr. Seed.] As regards experience, did you come straight from Western Australia here?-—-No, from Victoria.

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24. Where did you work in a colliery first?— Here. I started here trucking. 25. How long were you trucking?--About six weeks. 2(>. How long were you before you went into a face? —About five or six months. 27. Did any accidents happen to you?—No, I have not met with an accident. 28. And did you find it difficult or dangerous?— No. 29. Arid yet you propose that a miner should have two years' experience?—l think it would be better if they had the experience. I did not say altogether in a coal-mine. If a man has had experience in a quartz-mine it would be enough. 30. You mean that two years in any mine would do? —Yes, certainly. 31. You found no difficulty in working even after only four months?— No. 32. In what mines were you working in Western Australia? —ITillend, Golden Arrow, in Broadarrowtown. 33. What was the ventilation like there?— Pretty good. And I was also six years in the Jubilee Mine in Victoria, and about two years in the Port Arthur Mine as underground shift boss. 34. How do you find the ventilation in. this mine where you are working? —Just middling. 35. Is it not pretty good?—lt is fair. Jambs Scott sworn and examined. (No. 51.) 1. The Chairman .\ What are you? —A coal-miner. 2. With how many years' experience? —Fourteen. 3. Where?—ln British Columbia, South Africa, Newcastle, and Xew Zealand. 4. Do you hold any office in the mine? —I am check inspector for the Ir'onbridge Mine. ">. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? —The whole of those which have already been mentioned. 6. You have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses : do you corroborate it? —Yes. 7. What do you wish to say in particular?—l consider that every miner should have 150 cubic feet of air provided at the face, and also, when the sections are large, the air should be split, so that the men would not be inhaling the same air. I also think that communication should be made no more than 7 yards from the face, and both stentons and bords should be blinded so as to make the air full. To-day it is a case of each stenton running level, and half the air escaping, while half the colliers are suffocated. Regarding the extraction of pillars and prevention of accidents, 1 think that under the present system of grab there is no wonder so many accidents occur. When you are taking out a pillar with 22 yards centre you are perhaps ordered to drive through the pillar, which leaves a very small stump on either side. The consequence is that the collier holds his life in his hands. Pillars should not be split more than 12 ft., and all bords and stentons should be broken away 12 ft. wide, which would give the pillar a good hold at the corner. If the day-wage system were introduced, as we advocate, it would stop the rush and tendency to grab, and the colliers would take time to put in props and thus secure their own safety. 8. Is that a matter of the system or the price?—lt is the system —not the price at all. The same thing would be carried on if you were getting 10s. or ss. a ton. Regarding jigs, I consider there ought to be blocks and bells on all jigs. On some jigs you will find blocks and anchors, but none on others. 9. Mr. Dowr/ray.] What is your opinion about men starting coal without having any previous experience?— When I started I had to have two years' experience in Newcastle before I dared to ask for work on the coal. 10. How does the system of pillar-extraction here compare with that in other places?—Tt is very different. 11. I}o you consider the pillars far too small? —Yes, though under the tonnage-rate system they have to be small. The management fixes that. Henry John Fox sworn and examined. (No. 52.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —Deputy in the Coalbrookdale Mine. 2. How many years' experience have you had in mining? —Twenty-five. 3. Where? —Great Britain, New South Wales, and New Zealand. 4. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? —I. have been appointed to appeal , on behalf of the deputies, and speak on the matter of the prevention of accidents. We, as representing the company, contend that the Act does not sufficiently define what arc the duties of a deputy. Our duties should be more definite as, regards the prevention of accidents. We act for the manager of the colliery, and take the responsibility of the manager. .At the present time we are called upon to do other work, such as timbering, road-laying, and so on, 'and while we are doing that we contend that we are unable to attend to our proper duties —that is, the proper supervision of the workmen. Therefore we ask for the Act to be amended so as to bring it into line with the English Act on this subject. I will read the clauses that we have drafted from the English Act which has recently been brought down by a standing committee of the House of Commons, and which we ask should be added to the New Zealand Act : " Firemen, examiners, or deputies : (1.) For every mine there shall be appointed by the manager one or more competent persons (herein referred to as firemen, examiners, or deputies) to make such inspection, and carry out such duties as to the presence of gas, ventilation, state of roof and sides, and fire shots, and seeing men out at the end of shift, and general safety, as required by the Coal-mines Act. (2.) A fireman, examiner, or deputy shall be required to devote the whole of his time to such duties as aforesaid (herein referred to as his statutory duties). (3.) The district of any mine assigned to a fireman, examiner, or deputy shall not be of such a size as would prevent him from carrying out in a thorough manner all such duties as aforesaid." And, further, Mr. Chairman, we consider that

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the examination of deputies should be held once in each year at the same time as the manager's examination, and be advertised in the same manner, and all candidates should be of the age of twenty-five and must have had at least five years' experience in a coal-mine, of which three years should be at the coal-face. We consider that a deputy is not capable of supervising every man unless he lias had three years at the coal-face. 5. You have heard the suggestions made on behalf of the miners as t<» the powers of check inspectors: from your experience of check inspectors, have you anything to say as to the qualification of a check inspector to stop a place?—lf I made any statement on that point it would not be made on behalf of my union, bu( a personal one. and I prefer not to make any such statement. 6. Can you express an opinion as to the suggestion that the check inspectors should pass an examination? —Well, 1 have heard the statement marie here that all the check inspectors are the most competent men that can be found in a mine. I say that is not so. 1 have been a check inspector myself, and I have known check inspectors who have not been capable of taking a reading of the air. They were really duffers. 7. What do you think about the examination : do you think it would be a reasonable thing to ask?— Well, I think so, because if you are going to give a check inspector the power to stop a place he should qualify himself in some way. There are many in this mine who are very erratic; they would stop anything. 8. Mr. Feed.] About those deputy's examinations, did you get a, service certificate or a certificate of competency?—A certificate of competency. 9. You passed the examination?— Yes. 10. Who examined you? —Mi-. Marshall. 1 1. Do you think that examination is difficult enough? —No, it is too easy. 12. It was the first examination you passed?— Yes, one of the first. I say right here it is a farce. 13. Deputies were wanted at that time—it was illegal to work without certificated men? —I wish to say that there are a lot of men who want to sit for the examination, but no advertisement has appeared, and there is no one to apply to. 14. Have you written to the Secretary of the Board? —No. 15. As to the check inspectors, do they take air-measurements? —Yes, I did when I was a check inspector at Blackball. 16. Do the check inspectors here use the anemometer? —Yes, they carry them. 17. Have you seen them use one? —No. 18. Mr. Dowgray.] How long have you been a deputy here? —Nine months. 19. In Blackball how long had you the anemometer? —It was the property of the union. I do not know how long they had it. 20. They had it while you were check inspector? —Yes. 21. You say you are in favour of the standard of the examination being raised and the agelimit fixed? —Yes, at twenty-five, and the men to have three years at the coal-face. 22. Where were you a check inspector before at Blackball?— Nowhere. 23. And you said that some check inspectors were mere freaks?— Yes. 24. Mr. Parr;/.] Did you say that you think check inspectors should pass a certain examination before being allowed to take up their duties? —Yes. 25. Do you know anything about taking temperatures?—No, I have never taken them, except a few in Blackball with the ordinary thermometer. 26. Do you know the difference between the two bulbs?—l have seen them, but Ido not care to go into that question. 27. You said that some of these check inspectors were so erratic that they would stop any place? —Yes. 28. Did you ever see a place stopped by them in this mine? —They have not the power to stop a place. I judge from hearing their views. 29. So that you do not know whether they would have stopped it at all?— That is my opinion. Frederick Ernest Foot sworn and examined. (No. 53.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —A deputy. 2. How many years' mining experience have you had? —Twelve years in coal-mines, and thirteen years in alluvial mines. 3. How long have you held a certificate?—l have a service certificate, and have been four years a deputy. 4. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission : do you corroborate what has been said by the last witness ?—Yes. 5 Have you anything to add? —I think the deputies should have their duties confined to looking after the mcii. At times there is a great deal of other work to be done, and you have to do that between times. 6. Mr. Fletcher.] Which mine are you deputy in?— The Ironbridge. 7. How many deputies are there there? —I cannot tell you. About a dozen, I think. 8. Which section are you in? —No. 2 section at present. 9. How many men are there in that section —hewers? —About ten singles on day shift, and ten on the night shift. •■,-,■« 10. Are you the only deputy? —There is also a deputy for the night shift. 11. Is there any assistance? —No. 12. Do you know how many men the deputies follow in the other sections of the mine? — One man would follow about five pairs and a half. 13. How many men are under your charge in a shift? —Ten colliers and the truckers.

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14. What is the average number of men they follow? —I do not know. Some have as high as twelve pairs, but they have assistance. 15. Do you know how many coal-hewers there are in that section ?—Between sixty and seventy pairs of men. 16. Are there as many on the day shift as on the night shift? —There is only the one section double-shifted, the Ironbridge. 17. There are twelve deputies? —Yes. 18. Mr. Dowgray .] I believe you got your certificate for service? —Yes. 19. Did the getting of that ticket make you a better man than you were before?— No. 20. In your opinion, with the examination for deputies, are you getting a better class of men as deputies?— Well, the result is not to be seen yet. We have still the old hands on. 21. Do you not know the result in other collieries? —It would be very hard to say. 22. Your colleague suggested that they should not be granted a ticket under twenty-five : are you aware that there are men getting tickets under twenty-five?— The idea is to prevent them from getting tickets before they are twenty-five. 23. Under the present law as to the examination, are you getting the best men?-—The examination is easy now. 24. If the examination were made stiffer, would you be in favour of men at present holding service certificates passing the examination ? —Yes, I think it helps a man to go up for an examination, though there is often a practical man who lacks the educational ability to qualify for a ticket. 25. Your colleague said he was going by the latest Coal-mines Act in the Old Country : are you sure that that Act is passed yet?—l do not know; it was before the House. 26. Mr. Reed.] In connection with this examination for underviewers and deputies, do you not think, if the examination were made harder, it might exclude some good practical men who have not much education? —Well, everything is changing nowadays. The old conditions are passing away, and the newer conditions with education are coming to the front. With education it is necessary for everybody to keep up with the times. 27. Supposing we had had a stiff examination at the start, and it had resulted in many men failing, what would the companies have done for deputies?—lt would have been very difficult for them. 28. Do the deputies realize that that was the reason for making the examination easy?— Yes, I think so; it was known. 29. To permit the mines to continue working?— Yes. 30. Are you aware that that section of the Act came into operation when none of the deputies had certificates? —I am not sure on that point. I thought the time was extended so that the men might have time to get certificates. 31. Would you be in favour of the examination being made harder now? —Well, I look at it from this point of view : if you are going to require the men to sit for a ticket it is no use making it a farce. 32. Would you be in favour of the men being tested in the presence of gas?— Yes, I think that is a necessary qualification —that the men should have the knowledge. 33. How do you think it ought to be arranged in places where there are no gaseous mines? — They could practice with artificial gas. 34. Would the deputies' association approve of the standard of the examination being raised? —I think so, on the whole. Ido not know as to the question of these service men having to pass the examination. Ido not think they would be able to study to go in for the examination. I am afraid it would be asking rather much of them. 35. Mr. Dowgray.] Did your union discuss this matter from the point of view of raising the status of the deputies or making it a monopoly? —To raise the status. 36. There would not be anything in the way of all the others being required to qualify to pass the examination? —Except from the educational standpoint. 37. If the standard of the examination were raised, say, this year, would there not be a danger of the managers taking only those men who had the better tickets to your detriment? —I do not know. Edmcnd Power sworn and examined. (No. 54.) 1. The Chairmen.] What are you?—An engine-driver. 2. With how many years' experience? —About twenty-four, engine-driving and firing. 3. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? —The matter of alterations in the boiler-sheds. We have boilers about 12 ft. high on the top and somewhere about 8 ft. apart, and we have only a 6 in. plank to go across. on the front of the boilers it is about 12 ft. high, and if you have any repairs to make you have to stand on a ladder. It is very awkward, and we think' it unsafe. There should be platforms from boiler to boiler, and a grating so as to meet in the centre and capable of being turned back when you do not want to use it. And at the fan in the Cascade section you have to climb up a ladder 5 ft. or 6 ft. high. It is very easy to slip, because everything is greasy. I think there should be a staging there. 4. Mr. Reed.] As regards the boilers, you say they are dangerous : what is the Inspector of boilers doing to allow that?— Well, the Inspector crosses those 6 in. planks and climbs the ladders annually, and nothing has been done. 5. Has the Inspector of boilers certified everything correct?— Well, he examines the boilers. 6. How long does he spend inspecting your boilers here? —About an hour or an hour and a half. 7. Do you carry out the hydraulic test? —Yes, under the supervision of our engineer. 8. At what pressure? —Our working-pressure is 1201b., and they are tested up to 2401b.— double the working-pressure.

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9. Do you think that a good test?— Yes. 10. Have you worked in connection with boilers in any other country? —I have only worked here. 11. And they carry out the hydraulic test here?— Yes, of late years. 12. You think it is an adequate and necessary test? —Yes. I cannot say 1 approve of it, all the same. 13. What would you prefer to it?—lf you have a boiler working to 120 lb., and you double that to 2401b., it is quite possible that that boiler will stand the test, but it might be strained and you would not know anything about it. 14. Do you consider it an adequate test? —Yes. 15. Mr. Dowgray.'] It is the compressors you are working with? —Yes. 16. Do you work by yourself?— Yes. 17. The question has been raised as to a man being allowed to work by himself on the night shift?—l have worked on the night shift, but lam not doing so at present. 18. Do you think there is danger with a man being left by himself? —Most certainly. You have a fan a certain distance from your plant, and anything might happen to the man—he might have a fall, for instance —and he would have to lay there till some one came along. I think it is absurd to ask any man to go on night shift without somebody with him.

Runanga (Public Library). —27th October, 1911. James Newton examined. (No. 55.) 1. The Chairman.] You are Inspector of Mines for this district? —Yes. 2. You have some documents referring to the Point Elizabeth State Colliery to hand to the Commission, I understand ?—Yes : list of accidents, air-measurements, and number of employees in the Point Elizabeth State Colliery. [Exhibit No. 24 put in.] John Arbuckle sworn and examined. (No. 56.) 1. The Chair man. \ What are you? —A miner. 2. Do you hold any office in the union? —I am secretary of the Accident Fund at the present time. Until recently I have been a check inspector, and I was a member of the executive of the State Miners' Union. 3. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission?—l produce a statement showing the whole of the fatal accidents which have occurred in the mine, and also a list of all accidents which have happened since 1909. There were fifteen accidents, however, which have not been printed. These lists are copied from my books. [Exhibit No. 25 put in.] 4. All the men referred to in these lists have received relief from the fund?— Yes. 5. Have you given the time during which they were on the fund?— No. 6. You swear these are correct extracts from your books? —I do. 7. Do you know the amount of relief paid during that period? —No. 8. Did you come into personal contact with these men? —Yes, since the beginning of 1911. 9. Have you anything further to add? —I would like to say that the sanitation in the State coal-mine, in my opinion, is really disgraceful. 10. What sanitary arrangements have you there?—l consider that a pan should be placed in every incline or small section containing men, and that it should be emptied every night where there is only one shift working. 11. We have had a suggestion made to us that a truck should be used, because there are objections to the use of the pan system. The idea is that a truck, with some ashes or dust and a shovel kept handy, should be used, and that the excreta should be thrown into the truck, which could be run out and emptied?— Well, my opinion is that a pan with a patent cover would be much better. 12. It has been stated that the men stand on the seats and refuse to use them properly where there is a mixed crowd?—-I should much prefer the pan system myself. Ido not think there would be any objection if they were emptied every day. 13. Are there any sanitary arrangements in this mine? —None whatever. The men simply go and use an old bord where it has been worked out. On one occasion when I was check inspecting I visited a place where two men were just starting a pillar. Within 3 ft. there was a place which had been used for that purpose for five or six months. It was like a well that had been sunk and then filled in. I drew the manager's attention to it, and he said it was a pity the men did not cover it up. 14. Do you wish to refer to any other matters?—ln regard to timbering, I consider that onehalf the timber going into the State mine is unequal to the use it is put to. The props are very inferior, and not worth putting up for holding any body of material. 15. What is your objection to them?— They are too small, and split. Then, again, some of the bars are three-cornered, but in lots of cases they are not; also they are not of first-class quality. They do not fit as they should do, and instead of taking the weight when it is put on they swing and push out. I hold that every prop should be collared when used for bars, and then there would be no swinging of timber. 16. How would you remedy that? Would you fix a size of prop or bar to be used? —The bar is immaterial, because sometimes you have to cut it. I consider they ought all to be 8 in. through, and the props about the same.

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17. Round timber or split?— Round timber preferably. Hut all the bars used should be round. At present one-half the bars that are put up are split, and when the weight comes on they break in halves. Then, in regard to the air in the mine, I think there is insufficient air travelling in the mine under the present system —the splits are too big. 1 consider there should be a split for every fair-sized section. At present one of these large splits supplies practically one side of the mine. When the shot-firers are going round they start firing at the bottom or the top, as the case may be, and when they are at one end the last pair of men are getting the whole of the smoke. They receive all the smoke from the other sets of men in the section. There is also another matter I wish to refer to while lam on the subject of air. The air may come up in sufficient quantities, but when it is turned into a bord it is turned in with brattice, and while portion of the air may go straight through the majority leaks oil' the brattice, and consequently the full force of the air is lost before it gets into the working-face ; and when a man fires a shot the smoke has a tendency to remain there for a good while —it is not cleared away as it should be. I consider that in from two to three minutes the place should be clear of smoke. 18. You advocate separate splits for the separate sections?— Yes. 19. Mr. Dowgr-a.y.] Is there not one of the mines here ventilated by separate splits? —Yes. No. 1 has more splits than No. 2. I have worked in both sections. 20. How long liava you been a miner?—l have had twenty years' experience all over the colonies. 1 went in as a lad at fourteen years, and have been practically ever since connected with mining. 21. What other mines have you worked in? —In New Zealand I have not worked in any except this one, but in New South Wales I worked in the Hartley Vale Mine, and also in most of the Newcastle mines; in Victoria I worked in the Coal Creek Mine; and in Tasmania 1 worked in a small mine. 22. How does the pillar-extraction here compare with that in the other mines you have worked in ? —Very unfavourably. 23. In what respect? —In the first place, in other mines, as a rule, they never use the old bords. Here the road is laid through the old bord, where the roof has had time to bag, and the whole of the bord is likely to collapse at any minute. In other places they do away with the old bords, and take splits right up the side of the pillar. That is called " siding over." By the time you get to the bord you have the open ground on one side and nothing on the other. Since there have been so many accidents here they have put in chocks. In other places, where the roof is not as dangerous as it is here, they come in with a narrow split and get a good support on each side. Here you are not into safety until }'ou are out to the flat sheet. I consider the bords have been driven too wide. 24. The Chairman.] Do you advocate splitting pillars?— Yes. 25. Mr. Dowgray.~\ Is there anything to prevent these pillars from being split?—No, not as far as I know. 26. Is there any difficulty in regard to the angle at which the coal lies? —No. It has to be jigged down in the majority of places, and if they drove a split up it would just be the same. 27. The Chairman.] What is the size of the pillars here? —Sometimes they are 4 or 5 yards, and sometimes 9. A bord may be set off to be driven 8 yards wide, but before it has gone far it may be 10 yards wide—they may have encroached upon the pillar. Consequently the pillar is only half the thickness it should be. 28. Who makes that encroachment? —The miners make it, but the management is there to see that it is not done. Even in the event of the miner doing it the blame must lie on the management for allowing him to do it. 29. Do you know what is the rule of the management in regard to the width of bords? —The recognized width is 6 yards, but I consider that too wide. 30. Mr. Dowgray.] What do you consider a safe width? —Nothing more than 4 yards at the outside. 31. The Chairman.] Supposing the bords were driven the regulation width, what would be the size of the pillars?— According to the plans they would be something like 8 yards. 32. Mr. Doivgrai/.] In driving a narrow split through a pillar, has the management to pay solid rates? —Yes. 33. Mr. Parry.] As regards timbering, how does this mine compare with the other mines you have worked in ?—Not well. 34. Have you ever worked in a mine with a similar roof?— Yes, just as dangerous, if not more so. 35. What was the mode of timbering there?, —More chocks or pigstyes were used. In the Hartley Vale it was all broken roof. Nearly all the props were collared, and there were chocks all along. During a period of twelve years there were only two fatal accidents in that mine, and very few minor accidents. 36. Do you think it is possible for the timber standing as it does in this mine to take the weight without being stayed? —In many cases, no. A man has to be a thoroughly practical man to set his timber so as to take the weight. 37. The use of pigstyes or chocks would get over that difficulty?— Certainly. You have a fair illustration of that in the place where White was killed some time ago. I have worked in that section of the mine, but have never seen a chock, when used, fail to stay a fall or cut it off. 38. Had you seen split timber used for bars before?—No, not where there was any body of ground to hold. 39. Do you think it is a dangerous practice?— Yes, certainly. 40. Mr. Fletcher.] You say that the bords are supposed to be driven 6 yards wide? —That is the widest. In cases where there has been a very bad roof it has been reduced to 4 yards. 41. How is it that in some places the bords are 10 yards wide? Whose fault is that?—l take it that it is the manager's fault.

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42. Do you not think the men should help the management in the matter?— Well, only onehalf the men are practical, and if the others are allowed to break the rule it is the fault of the management for permitting them to do so. 43. Supposing the manager discharged a man for robbing a pillar?—l think that any sensible body of men would uphold such an action on the part of the manager. 44. Mr. Cochrane.] You stated that you worked in a mine with as bad a roof as this one, and that there were only two fatalities in twelve years. Which mine was that? —The Hartley Vale Mine. 45. How many- men were working there? —As high as two hundred. 46. Mr. Dowgray.~\ You referred to men not being practical. In a mine such as this do you think that men should get on the coal before they have shown that they are capable miners?—l think that no man should have charge of a place until he has from two to five years' experience. 47. It has been suggested that a man should have two years' experience before he has charge of a place by himself, and three months with an experienced miner?—l do not think he would be capable in less time than that. John Glover sworn and examined. (No. 57.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you? —A miner, and workmen's inspector. 2. Do you hold any office in the union?—l am treasurer of the union, and secretary of the New Zealand Federation of Labour. 3. How many years' experience have you had as a miner? —Thirty years in and about mines— fifteen years as a miner. I have had experience in Staffordshire, Lancashire, and at the State mine here. 4. Has your union discussed the matters which you wish to bring before the Commission? —Yes. 5. Are you prepared to speak on these subjects on behalf of the union? —Yes. 6. What is your membership? —About four hundred and fifty. 7. Are you unanimous on the points you wish to lay before us?— The union left it to the executive. 8. And who are the executive? —The president (Mr. P. C. Webb), vice-president (Mr. H. Coppersmith), secretary (Mr. G. H. Hunter), treasurer (myself), and three other members, who will give evidence later. 9. Now, what is it you wish to lay before the Commission? —In the matter of ventilation, we contend that the mine should be divided into sections, as is the case in No. 1 mine. No ; 2 mine is not divided : the system of ventilation is altogether different. If the air in No. 2 mine were distributed similarly to that in No. 1, the conditions would be better than they are. Then, when you get down on to the second level, you would notice that the coal is heating and giving oft gases. You yourself, Mr. Chairman, asked the Inspector of Mines what caused the smell, and he said it was sulphuretted hydrogen. If the air were split it would be taken into the return, and not mixed with the air the men have to breathe, because we think the air is sufficiently vitiated with the explosive smoke without having it mixed with sulphuretted hydrogen, which could easily be conducted into the return if the mine were split into sections. The present system is causing the men to suffer from ill health unnecessarily. I happen to be working in a district of the mine which gets the.air after the other places, and am satisfied that we do not get sufficient air. 10. How many places does the air go into after that sulphuretted hydrogen joins it?—l should say thirty-five to forty places. In the No. 2 mine there are about fifty-seven places working, and in No. 1, which is split into sections, there are only about thirty places working. Then, we contend that a sufficient quantity of air should sweep round the faces to keep them clear of all gases and explosive smoke. We know that the.minimum is 150 cubic feet per man per minute, and 600 cubic feet per horse. That may be quite sufficient where there is no blasting going on, but where there is blasting a larger quantity of air should be circulating round the faces to keep them clear or to make them clear in a reasonable time. 11. How long does it take the face to become reasonably clear now after firing?— Ten minutes or a quarter of an hour at the least, even in a place which gets the full sweep of all the air that is going. In connection with sanitation, my executive is of opinion that the pan system should be introduced. Up to the present time there has been no system of sanitation at all in the mines here As was said by the last witness, the sanitation is very bad. I think the members of the Commission had only to use their senses when inspecting the mine yesterday to appreciate how bad it is. The pan system should be introduced, and the pans cleaned out every twenty-four oUr i2 Have you anything to say as to the twick system (—Personally, I think it might be a good idea if the truck system were introduced, for I know that many men have an objection to using pans after other men. We also contend that the provision of bath-houses and change-houses at every mine should be made compulsory. At the present time a great many workmen live some distance from the mine, and even for those who live handy it would be a great deal better for them to have a bath when they come out of the mine. They are hot when they finish, and if they could get a bath then it would be conducive to an improvement in their health. Hot and cold water SIOU I3 Xrmany men to a bath would you recommend ?—Well, that is a question: not more than four I should think, because you do not want to keep the men waiting about a long time. And we also think that, in addition to the bath, there should be a shower. 14 Then in your original recommendation you meant plunge-baths.' —Yes. 15 In some places shower-baths have been advocated in preference to plunge-baths, because it is said it has been found that the men do not pull the plugs out after bathing. The suggestion has been made that hot and cold showers would be sufficient and satisfactory?—! think you want something in addition to that. Large hand-basins are what you want.

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16. And not less than one bath to four men —that is, plunge-baths?—l contended for extralarge basins. They would not require the same number of plunge-baths as they would hand-basins. 17. What proportion of the men, do you think, would use the baths? —That is difficult to say. Not more than 50 per cent, would use the plunge-baths, but a much higher percentage would use the showers and basins. 18. How would you determine whether the baths should be erected or not?— You could take a ballot on the matter. 19. And on what proportion of men willing to use the baths would it be reasonable to ask the management to install them—so or 75 per cent., do you think? —I consider that the baths should be made compulsory, and every man should be made to wash in them if they were installed. It would be absolutely useless to have the baths erected if the men do not use them. 20. But how are you going to compel the men to use them? —1 do not think there would be any difficulty in the matter —in fact, the percentage who would refuse to use them would be infinitesimal. Miners, on the whole, are not an uncleanly lot of men, although they are looked upon as such. 21. Do you think it would be fair, after the baths are installed, to make a charge for their upkeep?— No. 22. In this particular mine, what facilities would be available for laying on water?— Good facilities. 23. Is the water handy?— Yes. The next subject 1 wish to refer to is the prevention of accidents. As has been said by the secretary to the Accident Fund, this mine has gained a notoriety as regards fatal and other accidents. 1 think the statement which he placed before you shows that there have been over two hundred accidents in two years, while the men employed number four hundred. A very large number of accidents have occurred during the six or seven years during which the mine has been working, and we have suggestions to make which we think will prevent them. There is no doubt that a great many accidents happen in connection with the extraction of pillars, and we consider that more chocks should be used; also, that not more than one pair of men should be engaged extracting a pillar. At the present time there are two and three pairs of men at work on one pillar, and we consider that practice dangerous. If many men are working at a pillar which is 16 or 25 yards wide, the men cannot be at sufficient distance from one another to hear when the ground is moving. 24. What size are the pillars ?—All sizes. The bords have been driven any way —in fact, there have been cases where bords have been driven into one another. That shows that the management has not had any knowledge of the quantity of coal between the bords. I think that is the result of bords not being driven by sights. We contend that all bords should be driven not more than 9 ft. or 12 ft. wide, and that the pillars should be left bigger or smaller than they are at the present time. The majority of the pillars will perhaps be 10 or 12 yards. If the pillars were left a little larger a greater percentage of coal could be won easier. 25. Cannot the miners themselves stop the robbing? —But it is not altogether their fault that these bords have been driven so wide. The rule laid down by the management is that a bord shall be broken away 12 ft. wide for the first 3 yards, and then opened out to 18 ft. wide. The management can bring that down to 16 ft. wide. The coal is of a friable nature, and when it falls there is a great temptation to the miner to fill it. The average height is from 10 ft. to 1.4 ft., and we contend that if the bords were driven about 8 ft. high, and from 9 ft. to 12 ft. wide, the air would not have the same action upon the coal as it has at present, causing it to frit away. We also contend that when a pillar is being taken out chocks should be set, even if the old bord is good; new timber should be put in, and chocks set all along. 26. What do you call an "old bord " : how long should it have been driven? —I think any bord six months old should be retimbered. 27. You agree with the last witness as to the class of timber—-that it ought to be heavier and of better quality?— Yes. 28. And as to the sort of wood? —Yes. It should be pirie and birch, I think. The timber used does not appear to be of the best quality; it is too full of sap. 29. If you got a good large tree—l do not mean just a sapling—which you could split into a number of props, would not that make good props, as long as you did not split them too small? —It would be all right for props, but not for bars. 30. You prefer the round bar? —The miners find it much easier to get the round bar or cap to sit after it has been bevelled at the ends. Then, we contend that the timbering in all these places should be done in a s:/stematic manner. We think the props should be not more than 4 ft. apart. You will see by the list that a great number, of accidents have resulted from falls of stone, and yet in those places the roof has been considered safo. We consider that timbering should be done whether the roof is considered safe or not. 31. Who does the timbering, the miners? —Yes. 32. Who supervises the timbering?— The deputy. 33. The man in charge of the pillar or face does the timbering himself?— Yes. 34. What have you to say as to the experience necessary for a man to become competent to do timbering?—l think, if a man is required to have two years' experience prior to having charge of a coal-face, he should have two years' experience in setting timber. 35. But he might have worked in a mine which was fairly safe? —Still, if systematic timbering is insisted on he would have done some timbering, no matter whether the mine was considered safe or unsafe. Then, we consider another cause of accidents is the use of chain jigs. This is not the first time we have spoken against the use of chain jigs. We consider it is an obsolete custom, not only by reason of its causing accidents directly, but also as the indirect cause of them. If you will look down the list of accidents you will see that a fatal accident occurred in October, 1909, when one man was killed and four others injured. That accident occurred at a place where two

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men were breaking away a bord on one side and two on the other side of the sheet, and somehow the whole of the ground collapsed. We contend that had a chain jig not been in use there the men would have heard the ground moving, but with the chain jig in motion they could not hear anything. I may say that the fall took place directly after the truck arrived at the top. The accident could not be traced directly to the use of the jig, but we contend that it was the indirect result of its use. Ihen, there have been innumerable accidents caused through men, when pulling up the jigs, getting their fingers caught between the chain and the wheel. 36. What other method do you use besides the chain?— There are ropes and brakes in some places, and these should be used in all jigs except in face-jigs. Where a chain is used an anchor chain should be used in addition. 37. How do the two systems compare for vibration? —There is more vibration with the chain jig. On most of the jigs there is no wheel. A couple of fish-plates are put on a prop and the chain runs round that, and that affects the roof. Allen and Nicholson were injured by a fall brought down in that way in No. 2 mine. 38. What does the rope run through in a rope jig? —It runs round a wheel. Then, we contend that in every coal-mining district there should be a depot, as there is at Home, for the testing of fire-fighting appliances. Such a depot should be established here, so that if a fire does take place the men would be ready to fight it, and so save a great number of lives perhaps. Then, we think the workmen's inspectors should have more powers than they have at the present time. At any rate, where a place is -considered dangerous he should have the power to suspend operations until the Inspector of Mines can visit the scene. 39. What is the practice here in regard to inspections by workmen's inspectors? —The workmen's inspector goes round the mine, accompanied by the mine-manager, and reports anything which is dangerous. 40. How often do they go round? —Once a month, unless something unforeseen turns up. If a man complains a special visit is made. 41. There have been representations made to us on this subject of the extension of the powers of workmen'-s inspectors. It has been suggested that if a check inspector wishes the power to stop a place he should pass some examination, or show that he is qualified to express an opinion upon the question—such an examination, for instance, as a deputy is required to pass. Have you anything to say as to that?—l do not think it would raise the status of the workmen's inspector if he had to pass an examination. As far as I can learn, the passing of the examination has not raised the status of the deputy. The main point is as to whether a man is a practical miner, and Ido not think the miners will ever put in a man as a workmen's inspector unless he is practical. Then, we contend that another causa of accident is the speeding-up process. There is no doubt that the present system of coal-getting—the contract system —is responsible to a certain extent for a great number of accidents, because the men take risks in order to earn a big wage which they ought not to take, and we contend that it will be almost an impossibility to prevent the accidents until such time as the system is done away with and the wage system introduced. We also recommend that in the opening up of all new coal-mines and winning-places should be taken to the boundary before commencing bord-and-pillar work. There is no doubt that a large number of accidents are the result of the companies trying to put coal on the market at an early date. 42. Mr. Dowgray,~\ In connection with the bath question, you said you were in favour of the compulsory use of baths by the miners? —Yes. 43. Have the whole of the miners agreed to that? —No. 44. How would you set about finding out whether the baths should be installed or not? Would you take a ballot of the men I —Yes, decidedly. 45. And if the men decided in favour of the baths you would make it compulsory?— Yes. 46. Then you do not agree that it should be left optional whether the men use them or not? — I quite agree that in some cases a certain allowance should be made, because we know that some men have a decided objection to stripping in front of others through some affliction. I do not think it should be made altogether compulsory, but where men endeavour to avoid the use of the bath simply because of their lack of cleanliness it should be made compulsory. 47. Do you not think that the use of the baths would become almost universal once they were erected ?—Yes. 48. Do you suggest that the showers should be covered in ?—Yes. 49. You stated, in reply to the Chairman, that the bords sometimes run into one another : are the workmen to blame for that, or the management?— The management. 50. The C7iairman] In what way?— Because the management should know by the plans the quantity of coal there is, and the distance between the bords. If the bords were driven by sight, and not in a haphazard way, that would not occur. 51. Mr. Dowgray.] Is it not a fact that the management sometimes alters your course?— Yes. 52. And the workmen are not always to blame? —No. 53. The chain jigs you referred to are the jigs away from the face? —Yes. These should be wire ropes instead of chains. 54. And all face-jigs should have anchor chains?— Yes. 55. In connection with check inspections, do you agree that these should be made only once a month? Here you have no difficulty in making more frequent inspections if necessary, but in other places they have? —I think the check inspector should have the power to examine the mine at any time. We have no difficulty here in regard to that matter. 56. The Chairman.] There has been a suggestion made that the Act should be amended to enable the Inspector of Mines to give the workmen's inspector authority in writing to inspect a mine more frequently than once a month, and for that authority to remain in force as long as the Inspector of Mines considered it necessary?— That might suit us in some cases, but in others it might be against us.

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57. Would it be desirable for the Inspector of Mines to have power to give the workmen's inspector extended powers?—lt might be so in some cases, but not in others. 58. What do you mean by that? —I mean that in some places the union might have sufficient power behind it to compel the Inspector of Mines to give that permission, but in other places they might not have that power. 59. In connection with timbering, do your sets come in to j<ou prepared, or do you have to prepare them yourself ?—They are supposed to come to us all ready prepared, but in some instances they do not. Our contention is that all sets should be prepared before they come into the mine, and be quite ready to be put up. 60. Can you give us any idea of the method of drawing timber here, and your opinion of it? —The drawing of timber, as far as I know, is all done by the deputies, but the men have at times drawn it with pick and hammer. We contend that that practice is dangerous, and should not be allowed. All timber should be drawn by mechanical means, such as the Sylvester. 61. Is it necessary for the timber to be drawn at all?— Yes, it is much safer for the men taking out the pillars. 62. Mr. Cochrane.] Have you yourself noticed any signs of the presence of sulphuretted hydrogen in this mine?— Yes. 63. Do you know the usual products of that? —No. 64. Is it not black damp?— Yes, that is what we have been given to understand. 65. Then, as to the timbering, are you paid for putting up the sets? —Yes. 66. Are you paid for putting up the props?— No. 67. Then, as to driving the bords by sight, is that not impracticable with a varying dip such us occurs in this mine?—No, the dip varies in the different sections; but a section may go for a long distance and not vary at all. 68. You mean that when driving the bords there should be a continual survey going on?— Yes. 69. You favour driving the bords Bft. high? —Yes, in the high coal. I contend it is the action of the air on the roof which causes it to break. 70. Would you recover the top coal separately or by pillar-work? —By pillar-work.' 71. Have you worked in thick seams in Staffordshire? —No; I worked in an 8 ft. seam there. 72. Mr. Meed.] You recommended that all winning-places should be driven to the boundary? —Yes. 73. Now, take the new colliery here, No. 2 : how many years do you think it would take the Government to drive the winning-places to the boundary there? —I have no idea of the extent of the coalfield. 74. Well, imagine that it is a mile to the boundary —that would not be unreasonable?— No. 75. If the Government had to drive the winning-places to the boundary, what would happen to the colliers in the meantime? Would they not be out of work? —I do not think that is a fair question. 76. As regards your reference to the contract system in coal-mines, did you not mean the piecework system?— Yes. 77.' Are you working on the coal? —Yes. 78. Which would you personally prefer —to be able to make a large wage by your own exertion, or to be put down upon a minimum wage?—l am working on a minimum wage at present —12s. a day. 79. Which would you prefer—piecework or day wages?—lf I had a living-wage assured I should prefer wages. Joseph Falcon Pattinson sworn and examined. (No. 58.) 1. The Chairman .] What are you? —A coal-miner. 2. With how many years' experience?— Fifteen. 3. Where? —Throughout New Zealand. I have been five or six years in the State mine. 4. Have you any office in the union? —I am a member of the executive, and a workmen's inspector. 5. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? —In connection with ventilation, I agree witii the evidence given by the last witness on that subject. 6. Hare you anything to add on any subject? —Yes, I think that the fans should be kept constantly going. They are constantly going in this mine, but lam speaking generally as to all coal-mines. Also, in connection with the supervision of the air, I contend that a person or persons should be told off specially to look after the distribution of the air. My reason for that is that when shots are fired the concussion causes the brattice to come away from the roof; the disturbance of the floor or the roof has the same effect. As regards sanitation, I agree with the views of the last witness, and also as to baths; shower-baths and basins, with hot and cold water, should be provided.. A particular point I wish to make is this : that these things must be kept clean, otherwise men will not avail themselves of them. I have heard men say that the pans or baths have not been kept in a satisfactory condition where they have been provided in other places. If they are not kept clean we are better not to have them. 7. What is your opinion as to making the use of the baths compulsory?— Well, I think the matter of cleanliness will settle that point. If the baths arc clean there is no doubt that the men will use them. In regard to the question of timbering, I agree with the last witness as to the necessity for setting the timber not more than 4 ft. apart —less, if necessary —that is, for props and bars, and chocks to be 5 yards apart, and less if necessary. Timbering is a very important factor. During my inspections I have had several complaints from men that they have not been able to get

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the timber cut into proper lengths., and as to its not being supplied when wanted; also that when it was supplied perhaps it was round at both ends. It is ridiculous to have the supply of timber .supervised in that fashion. A man should be appointed to supervise the supply of timber for each section —it is necessary that the men should get their timber expeditiously. _8. What would be a fair size for a district for one man to look after ?—That could be easily decided, though there would be no necessity to provide for the size by Act. The management could soon get an idea as to what area a man could look after. I want to make it plain here that the supervision of this timber has been very badly attended to. For instance, it is quite common for them to send in split props as bars not properly trimmed and with the legs not squared. It is an important matter, because life depends upon the timbering. The question of dust in mines has not yet been dealt with, I think. I contend that all mines should be kept clear of dust. It should be either taken away or made thoroughly wet. I also contend that it is necessary for telephones to be installed in mines" for rhe purpose of communication in case of accidents. I also think that men should undergo a course of practice in ambulance work. No doubt the deputies have to pass a slight examination on that subject, but 1 feel that it is necessary for them to have practice to keep them in touch with the work. The same applies to fire-fighting appliances. 9. What would you suggest to induce the men to undergo this practice?—l think men are beginning to realize the fact that life is worth something. They feel for each other, and lam sure they will be only too pleased to undergo a training if they can only get the necessary facilities. 10. If these ambulance and fire-fighting appliances are provided, how are you going to compel the men to take the exercises?—l do not think you could compel them, but T think they would willingly offer their services for the purpose. 11. Mr. Parry.'] I take it that by their own organization they would do that?— Yes, I think so. 12. The Chairman,.'] What guarantee have you that the men would bother with them? — Through our union we know that men could be got to offer their assistance for the work. I wish to say also that I agree with the last witness in the necessity for wire ropes being used instead of jig-chains. I would also suggest that the use of anchor hooks should be made compulsoiy in facejigs. In many instances the boxes get away from the faces, causing accidents to the men and to the collier}'. In regard to the grading of the inclines, here in this mine I have found when on my rounds that the men have to do a great deal of pulling on the chains, and I think if a little expense were incurred in grading these inclines it would save the present bullocking and consequent injury to the truckers. As the result of the present system there are numbers of men suffering from strains of different-characters and from ruptures. While on this point I might say that Ido not think a trucker should have to leave his jig-head. The moment he has sent his truck away his place is at the wheel. We have had several accidents on flat-sheets. The trucker should be at the wheel, just as the driver should be at his engine. I also contend that roadways should not be less than 6 ft. high. There are places in No. 2 mine which are very low. If these roads were higher you would get the timber up more expeditiously, and in other ways it would give a man move room. 13. Supposing you have not got the coal?— Well, if there is only 4ft. of coal the roadway should be brushed to give a 6 ft. roadway. If that were done it would be easier on the truckers. I consider that both the Inspector of Mines and the check inspector should have greater powers. The check inspector should have the power to stop a place pending the visit of the Inspector of Mines. They must have more powers, otherwise their inspections are of no use. I have gone round and found place* where men were working which were not fit for a cat to go into. The stone was hanging in such a disgraceful position that we should have the power to stop such places. It seems to me that men entering that mine are going to their doom. When I say this I speak conscientiously. Then there is the matter of the relighting of the safety-lamps when they go out. Under the present Act the miner lias to go back to station and have his lamp relit, but in many instances the station is some distance away, and I think there should be some better method than the present one. 14. Can you suggest any?— Well, probably an arrangement could be made for a man to have.' his lamp relit at the bottom of the incline—th,it would do away with walking to the cabin. 15. You want some one to go round for the purpose : how are you going to let him know that a lamp wants relighting?— The lamps are sent down in the trucks and put in the cabin, but they stop there unless the miners go out for them. A miner does not like the idea of walking a long distance to get his lamp. T want to say that I quite agree with the evidence of the last witness in regard to the speeding-up system. In regard to coal-extraction, I contend that for the sake of life and limb the levels should be driven to -the boundary before opening out on bord-and-pillar work. During your inspection you will have noticed that nine out of ten of the bords that have been driven have fallen, whereas if the mines were worked to the boundary it would be much easier and safer to extract the coal —the roof would not be disturbed as it is at present. There should be a systematic method of driving bords : they should be driven so as to make uniform pillars. Here we have pillars of fill dimensions, and that tends to cause accidents. The manager does not know where he is. Another question I wish to bring up is in regard to the section you visited yesterday where the timber was falling through to the seam below. I understand that the seam below varies from 18 ft. to 24 ft. If that is so, the place is dangerous, and the conditions should not be allowed to exist. No seam below should be worked until the higher seam is finished. 16. Mr. Dowgray.] In speaking of the timbering you made reference to some one being told off to look after the" timber-supply : if you turn to the Coal-mines Act you will see that it is provided that the deputy or underviewer " shall see that a sufficient quantity of timber for props and other purposes is daily supplied to the workmen, and cause the same to be cut in proper lengths and laid down in the working-places "?—Yes; along with my fellow-inspector I have drawn the attention of the manager to the matter, but he did not do anything until just lately.

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Lately the timber has been cut square at both ends, and some of the bars have been dressed; but even then the deputy is looking after the timber at the present time. •! contend Ihat a deputy cannot be doing two or three things at onee —he may be away renewing brattice or attending to the firing of shots. We may order timber and may not be able to find where the deputy is. 17. Then the deputy has too much work to attend to? —Yes. In No. 1 mine I think there are two or three more deputies for the men than there are in No. 2. 18. Mr. Parry.] How do the conditions in this mine at present compare with those of, say, six months ago?—lt has been "swept up " considerably this last fortnight. I would suggest that the Commission should go round every six weeks—it would be a boon to the miner. William Kobson affirmed and examined. (No. 59.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. With how many years' experience? —Twenty-seven. 3. Where? —Four years in New Zealand and twenty-three years in the Old Country. 4. Do you hold any office in the union? —Yes, I am on the executive, and also a check inspector. 5. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? —I have nothing , to say in regard to ventilation further than what has already been stated by previous witnesses. In regard to sanitation, I think the two suggestions before you are both good. In respect to bath-houses, I think the shower-baths and basins are the best system; they are much cleaner than the plungebaths. Speaking as to timbering, we have had several complaints as to the supply of timber, and have reported them, to the manager. There seems to have been very little notice taken of our reports, however. The manager simply said he would see things put right, though the Act says that the timber shall be prepared for the men and brought into the face. I advocate that all bars should be round —sometimes they are cut sharp at both ends, just as it comes out of the bush. Then, if the miner cuts it himself he finds the legs too short. In regard to pillar-extraction, I would like to direct your attention to the place where I was working yesterday and which the Commissioners saw. There are four pairs of men working there right behind each other all the way. There are only 4 yards of coal between the two men. The top place started to work and came right down after you left. To prevent that sort of thing chocks should be put in both above and below the men. 6. Mr. Parry.] That is, a systematic method of timbering is required?— Yes. In regard to chain jigs, I may say that I have had experience of them, having nearly lost my life through one. I agree with the previous witness that inclines should be graded — a miner exhausts himself pulling up the jig-chains, and there is nothing but the flat-sheet to stand on. I split my finger and nearly bled to death when working a chain jig. We should have rope jigs instead of chains, and the inclines should be graded. The next point I wish to touch on is in regard to the travellingroads, which should be kept clear of coaldust by sending it out of the mine. When we reported our opinion on this matter to the bosses they said there was no fear whatever, but from what I have read coaldust is the cause of explosions in the Old Country. Then I wish to refer to the condition of the lamps used in this mine. We have to use lamps which you would say had been smoked; they are in a disgraceful condition, and though we have drawn the manager's attention to them, they have not been attended to. The best lamps burn brightly and are satisfactory, but not those supplied to the miners. 1 also advocate the use of anchor-chains on the face-jigs. Then, there is another matter to which I wish to direct your attention, which has reference to the reports of the Inspector of Mines. He visits the mine and makes inspections, but we have no means of finding out whether he makes any complaints to the management as to the conditions he finds obtaining in the mine. We think we should be allowed to see his reports on the mine. If we saw his reports we would get some idea as to whether he was doing his duty. I think also a deputy should have no more than from four to six pairs of men to look after ; then he could take the lamps out of a man's place, light them, and also see to the timber and the shot-firing. Edward Smith sworn and examined. (No. 60.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. With how many years' experience?— Fourteen. 3. Where? —In the Brunner and State mipes. 4. Are you a check inspector? —Yes. 5. Have you any other office in the union ? —I am on the executive. 6. What do you wish to bring before the Commission? —I do not know that I have anything to say except to agree with the last speaker's views. I would like, however, to protest against the present system of shot-lighting. When you want to light a fuse you put your wire through and light the fuse, and it goes off like a packet of crackers sometimes. 7. What is your objection? —I do not think it is safe; when there is any gas about it is apt to explode. 8. What method should be adopted?—l think there should be a battery with which to fire the shots. -9. Do they use the safety lighter here?— Sometimes they do and sometimes they do not. 10. Is the use of the safety lighter a satisfactory method? —No, I do not think so. T have seen them used when the fuse has caught fire, making a blaze. 11. You agree with the other witnesses in regard to timbering?— Yes; with them I think that bars should be set not more than 4 ft. apart, and less if necessary. 12. What have you to say as to shower-baths and baeins, as advocated by the last witness? —I think their provision would be a good thing. 1 myself would not get into a plunge-bath after another man had been in it,

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Patrick Charles Webb affirmed and examined. (No. 61., 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. How many years' experience have you had? —About twelve years altogether—about six years in the State mine. •'i. Where? —All over the Coast —at Dennistou, Blackball, Paparoa, and in the State mine. 4, Are you a check inspector or do you hold any office in the union?: —I am president of the miners' union and of the federation also. 5. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? —I think most of the subjects have already been very fully dealt with by previous witnesses, whose sentiments 1 indorse, but I wish to enlarge upon one or two points. Firstly, in regard to pillar-extraction : for some years we have been protesting very vigorously against the present practice of leaving so much gob, and I am satisfied that as the result of that method of working several men are lying in their graves at Greymouth to-day. White and Baker, the last two men killed, met their deaths through working in too open country—l mean without timber. We have always advocated the splitting of pillars, and we believe that until such time as the pillars are split and extraction is done in that way accidents must take place, more particularly on. the high coal. Under the best system the extraction of pillars is dangerous work, but under our-system here it is almost suicidal for the men. I have seen instances here where one man has been filling his truck whilst the other was listening with the lamp up, waiting for the roof to split I have seen men run out of the pit rather than remain there. The only safe way is for the pillars to be split and chocks to be put in, and, of course, more remuneration will require to be paid for the splitting of pillars and the putting-in of chocks. In connection with the timber, I wish to say that the union has been protesting against split timber going into the mine. On one occasion we had to threaten to stop the mine unless we were given better timber so as to be able to make the places safe to work in. I have known many cases where men have had to go up on high ladders to try to wedge three-cornered bars, and it is almost impossible to wedge them satisfactorily when on a ladder. I do not think any three-cornered bars should be allowed to stand there. We prefer the round bars. I think the provision of bath-houses is of national importance—they are most essential. In nearly every mining town or camp half the men are single, and live in boardinghouses, where it is not easy to get baths. They leave the mine in a sweaty condition, and perhaps have to walk half a mile or a mile, and after reaching home have perhaps to wait till their comrades have finished washing in the tubs. Under those conditions the men are apt to catch colds. I am satisfied, too, that there would be no need for a compulsory clause to make the men use the baths. lam sure 99 per cent, of the men here would prefer to bath at the mines and walk home in other than their pit clothes. It is a crying shame that bath- and change-houses have not been established before now. Regarding the matter of driving to boundaries before extracting pillars, I think New Zealand as a whole and the mining industry in particular would have been far better off if this had been in vogue long ago; but, unfortunately, the first object has always been to get out the coal as quickly as possible, notwithstanding the detrimental effect upon the mine or the industry, and just so long as the present practice lasts will the industry be up to-day and down to-morrow. There are coal-mines flooded out now which should have been working for many years to come. If there had been proper machinery installed there would have been years and years of work ahead. The present system should be replaced by one which would give more security to the miners, because we submit that to drive to the boundary first is far better both from the safety point of view and that of economics. Then, I wish to..say a word or two in regard to the contract system. I believe that every death which lias occurred in coal-mines during the last five or six years —I am speaking of the fatalities which have come under my notice —has been traceable to the contract system. There is no doubt that this speeding-up system has been the cause of all the accidents. Then, the sanitary system in this mine, like that in all other mines in this country, is a disgrace. There is no place for a man to evacuate unless he goes into the bords. Men have to go and clean up those bords, and have had to breathe the foul smell caused by the present system. The pan system is a good one, and would do away with the present unsatisfactory conditions in the mines on the Coast. John Southward sworn and examined. (No. 62.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a deputy?— Yes, a fireman and deputy. 2. How many years' experience have you had as a miner? —Thirty-eight as a miner and four as a deputy. 3. Where? —Eighteen years in the Old Country and twenty out here. -1. What is it you wish to lay before the Commission? —The matter of the fireman's inspection of the mine. He has to visit the different places in the mine each morning by himself. It is possible for him to meet with some gases and be suffocated. We have heard of such cases in the Old Country in fact, there was one just recently in Lancashire, where a man was suffocated through coining into contact with noxious gases when on his rounds. We consider that the present method of inspection by the fireman alone is unsafe. We discussed this matter with the management here some twelve months ago, when Mr. Bishop agreed that it was necessary that the fireman should have some one with him when making his morning inspections. 5. Not necessarily another fireman? —No. Not only is it necessary that the fireman should be accompanied by another man because of the possibility of his meeting with gas, but he has to go into the gobs, and it is possible for a man to get a knock and lay there and get buried. We would like to see a provision placed on the statute-book making it compulsory for a fireman when making his inspection in the morning to be escorted by another man. There is another matter, in regard to the safety-lamps, which I wish to refer to. The Act distinctly says that the fireman when examining safety-lamps shall see that they are securely locked. We maintain that it is an impossibility for a fireman when examining lamps to say whether they are secure or not, because

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lie cannot see the gauze. They have a blowing, test—they blow the lamps before passing them out to the men. It is impossible to tell if there is a defective gauze in the lamp or not. It is also impossible for one man to clean so many lamps thoroughly. One man has made a boast that he can clean sixty lamps in an hour. Do you think that is possible? One witness has said that the lamps in No. 2 mine are in a disgraceful state. They ace certainly kept in better condition in No. 1 mine. We cannot say it is unsafe, but it is certainly impossible for a deputy to say that they are secure when he cannot know. Each lamp should be tested with a gas-tester before it is taken into the mine. In some of the older mines I believe gas-testers are used. The next point 1 wish to refer to is that the Act says that the deputy shall fire all shots in a mine where gas has been found, but he can depute some one else in writing to do so; so that under the present system any man can be deputed to fire shots. Ibis, we contend, is wrong. The fireman has to pass an examination, and he should be the man to fire all shots. It is possible to put men on to do the .shot-firing who have not a great deal of experience. In connection with the Brunner disaster, 1 believe the Board of inquiry came to the conclusion that that disaster was caused through a blownout shot. I remember hearing Mr. Brown, of Denniston, say that that was so. The present practice of deputing men to fire shots is a dangerous one. In No. 2 mine one man of each pair is allowed to fire their own shots. We maintain that where heavy shots are to be fired with gelignite there is a great concussion, and the firing of all shots should be in the hands of the fireman. The union wished me to bring up those three questions before the Commission. 6. Mr. Dowgray.] That clause you quoted states that it shall be the duty of the underviewei to make the examination, and not that of the deputy? —Yes, but the underviewer can depute the deputy to do anything. It says also that the fireman shall fire all shots, but he can authorize another man to do so. We want to see it fixed so that the fireman himself shall fire all shots. Men are put on to fire shots now who have not got an ounce of coal in their lives. 7. Of course, the circumstances you have referred to were in vogue long before the deputies' examination came in?— Yes. I maintain that the Act should be made so that no man could get a certificate unless he has been five years on the coal. 8. Would you be in favour of the Act being amended in that direction ? —Yes. Oliver Davis sworn and examined. (No. 63.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —A deputy. '2. How man} 7 years' experience in mining have you had? —Fifteen. ■3. And how many as deputy?— About five. -1. You have heard what the last witness—a deputy— has said : do you corroborate his evidence in detail? —Yes. 5. Have you anything to add?—No, I do not think so. G. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you hold a service certificate? —No, 1 passed the examination. We contend that it is absolutely necessary for some one to accompany the deputy when he makes his inspection in the morning, in case of trouble. Andrew Innes sworn and examined. (No. 64.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a fireman and deputy in the Point Elizabeth No. 2 Mine I —Yes. 2. What experience have you had as a miner? —Forty years. •'5. And how many years as a deputy?— Seven and a half—that is, out here, and eighteen months at Home. 4. You have heard the evidence of the deputies who have already given evidence : do you corroborate what they have had to say? —Yes. 5. Have you anything to add? —No. 6. 1 understand you were present when the man George Fullick was killed on the 2nd September, 1911 ?—Yes. 7. Will you first tell the Commission how the accident happened?— Well, we were told to draw the timber, and, of course, we proceeded to do so by the usual method. 8. What was the method used? —With hammer and axe. 9. Who sent you to draw the timber? —The underviewer, Mr. Muncaster. We had juststarted, when deceased went to knock two cap-pieces off the bar, and he took out one of the sets in the lift that was finished going up to the left; when he knocked the leg out the roof came along with it right over him, burying him. 10. Did you make any soundings ?—Yes, we had a good look. The roof was very scabby. We could see it when it was down, but not beforehand. 11. What height was the place?— They were using 5 ft. 6 in. props under the sets. 12. Is there much timber-drawing in that way?— Well, they have been drawing very little timber in No. 2 since I went there. 13. Who determines the question of drawing timber? Do you draw it on your own initiative? - -No; we are told to do so by the underviewer, Mr. Muncaster. 14. As a deputy of some years' standing, you have had considerable experience of drawing timber? —Yes. 15. What is your opinion as to the best method of drawing timber ?-—I have heard the men talking of the Sylvester method, but I have no knowledge of it. 16. You gained your experience at Home: were you drawing timber there?—No; there were no pillar-workings there where I was. 17. So that all your timber-drawing experience has been gained in New Zealand?— Yes. 18. And you have not seen the Sylvester system in operation here? —No, nothing but the haiumer-and-pick or hammer-and-axe system. 19. Do you know what examination is made by the underviewer before he has timber drawn? —jj e has a look at it, of course, occasionally—he is through the mine every day.

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20. Does he make a special examination before timber is drawn ?—I think it is left to ourselves after he tells us. We are left to judge for ourselves. There is no compulsion to take out any quantity. 21. There is no instruction issued to take out any particular timber ?•— ■Nβ. 22. But you say you did make a thorough inspection in this case before you started to draw the timber? —Yes. 23. And you saw nothing to indicate a broken roof'?— No. There was only a slip through the stone —wide at the bottom and narrow at the top. 24. How long were you at work before the accident happened I —Only about ten minutes. ' 25. It occurred on the knocking of the second prop?— Yes; that prop seemed to be the key to it. 26. Mr. Dowgray.] Whs that in the bottom seam , .' —Yes. 27. Is that bottom seam not often broken right up to the top seam? —No. There was only a small coal parting— the coal was visible. 28. 'the place which we were shown yesterday seemed to be full of slips?—lt was all level at the roof. Of course, the roof was very scabby. Had it been a clean roof we might have been able to detect it. 29. When it is thick it is very hard to judge?— Yes. 30. Have you drawn any timber since that time? —No. 31. Do you consider the Sylvester method would be an improvement on the hammer-and-axe system'? —Well, as far as I can hear, when using the Sylvester you can stand away in case of danger; if that is so it would be an improvement. But I have not seen it used myself. 32. Have you seen a lever used here? —No; I think they have used them in No. 1. 33. You were putting in a number of chocks in this place?— Yes. 34. How did you draw them out? —They have not been drawn out. 35. Do you think the Sylvester would be of any use in drawing them out ?—ln regard to some of them I think it would take the men all their time to draw them without shooting them out with dynamite. 36. Are they superior to the props in these places?— Yes. 37. Mr. Parry!] Do you think it would be safe to remove that timber by shooting it out !■■ Yes; you can get away always. 38. Do you think shooting it out would be the safest method of all? —Yes; you can always get away from it if there is any danger. 39. Then, if the timber had been shot out the man would not have been so liable to lose his life?— No. 40. Mr. Beed.] Was the deceased an experienced man?- —Yes, and a very careful man. 41. Did he use his own discretion in the method of drawing the timber? —Yes. 42. Have either the deceased or yourself applied for a lever or chain? —No. 43. Have you heard of the Sylvester system being used in New Zealand at all? —No. 44. You stated that the miners' union had asked that the timber be withdrawn?- -Yes, I was informed so. 45. Who informed you? —It was rumoured amongst the men. 46. Do you know on what grounds they made that request?— Well, their theory is thai b\ taking the timber it is easier for the other lift to be taken off. 47. Did the miners' union or check inspectors recommend that the Sylvester or lever-and-chain method be used?—-No. 48. In a seam 5 ft. 6 in. in height, would you approve of the hammer method of taking out timber when timber-extraction is necessary ?—There are some places where it is quite safe, but of course it jolts the place a good deal. 49. In this particular place both you and deceased thought it safe to remove the timber in that way? —Yes, otherwise we would not have done it. 50. You said something about blasting out the timber : what about blasting it out in the goaf? —Of course, it is a nasty thing to do. 51. Would you be allowed to blast the timber out in the goaf?--Not if there were any gas about. 52. Would you recommend that the hammer-and-axe system be used in preference to blastingout the timber in the goaf ? J —Well, after what I have seen I do not care too much for the hammer and-axe system. 53. Would you care for the blasting method? —If 1 found that it was clear of gas 1 would prefer it. 54. Would it not have been, better to have left the timber alone? —Yes. 55. But the workmen wished it drawn, and it was done? —Yes. 56. Mr. Dowgray .l Was it not an old working-place?—No; though thp lift was done. 57. But it had been a working-place? —Yes. 58. Did the men use shots in driving that lift? —I could not say; 1 was not in charge of that section. 59. They do fire shots in the pillars sometimes? —Yes. 60. You could hardly call that drawing timber in the goaf?— Well, it was the first lift. 61. That was the working-place : there would hardly be much danger in drawing the timber there? —No, I do not think there would be very much danger if everything was dear. 62. Do you think it relieves the other pillar if you get a clean fall?— Yes, it takes the weight oft. 63. Mr. Reed.] Is this a safety-lamp mine? —Yes. 64. And in safety-lamp mines is it safe to fire shots in the goaf? — There was just the one lift, and it never extends that far back into the goaf.

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Gkorge Rich Wylde sworn and examined. (No. 65.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A mechanical engineer, and secretary of the Westland Engine-drivers' Union. 2. What is it you wish to bring before the Commission? —I wish to direct the attention of the Commission to the situation of the ventilating-fans at both No, 1 and No. 2 sections of the State mine—the drivers complain that they are too far away from the boilers. The engine-drivers are supposed to be in effective charge of those fans at all times, and it is certainly impossible for a man to attend to the boilers and the fans at present; they should be kept closer together, or separate men should be in charge of the boilers and the fans. The fans are about 1\ chains away, and it is simply impossible tor the men to be in effective charge of them. There is a pump some •! or 4 chains down the creek, and we have been known to have to go there thirteen and fourteen times during one shift. '■\. Could one man attend to the fan and the pump while another man was attending to the boilers? —They are some distance apart. 4. He lias only to see that they do not stop?—lt would meet the case if there were a man to look after the pump and the fan and another to look after the boilers. Or else the fans should be put alongside the boilers. 5. Mr. Dowgray .] Do you consider that a man ought to be in attendance at these fans all the time? —A. man should be where he could either hear or see them going. 6. They should be under his observation ? —Under his actual supervision. 7. Does the fan ever stop? —Well, occasionally bearings are apt to go wrong. It is the constant strain on the men that is complained of. They feel they cannot do it fairly—it is rather too much. 8. The fan could be stopped for some time without your noticing it?— Yes, it might be stopped for half an hour—the man might be down the creek. 9. What you are advocating is that where there is a fan a man should be in attendance? — Yes. 10. Mr. Fletcher.] What distance is the fan away from the boilers? —2 chains. 11. Mr. Cochrane.] Is the fan not placed in the best position for the ventilation of the mine?— Ido not know —that is not a matter for me. But the boiler is some distance away.

GiusyMOUi'H Courthouse. —27th October, 1911. James Wahd sworn and examined. (No. 66.) 1. The Chairman.] What arc you?—A miner 2. Sow many years' experience have you had? —About thirty-three. 3. Where? —On the West Coast and in the Old Country. 4. How many years have you been working on the Coast? —About twenty-six. 5. Do you represent any union? —Yes, the Brunner Miners' Union. I am deputed by the union to give evidence before the Commission. 6. You are voicing the views of how many men —what is the membership of your union? — Between one hundred and fifty and one hundred and sixty, though the men are dwindling in numbers on account of the stoppage of the North Brunner Mine. 7. What is it you wish to bring before the Commission? —First of all, in regard to ventilation, the union holds that any place is not adequately ventilated where there is not sufficient air to carry away the noxious gas and powder-smoke at the rate of from 3 ft. to 5 ft. per second. 8. And you advocate a standard of sufficiency?— Yes. 9. You are not troubled with excessive heat?— No. Then, for the prevention of accidents there ought to be systematic timbering, which should be beyond the discretion of the management of the. men. There should be a prop set every 3 ft. or 4 ft. whether the roof is good or bad. 10. Do you suggest that should be made compulsory by statute?— Yes. 11. How would it meet the case if larger powers, were given to Inspectors of Mines to compel the putting-in of timber? —We hold that the Inspector is only an individual, as we ourselves are, and he should have no discretion in regard to that matter. We also contend that the sanitation of mines should be provided for by having the pan system in every incline. 12. There has been a suggestion made to the Commission that a truck should be used in a dead end, with ashes or some other deodorant, and that the miners use a shovel and shovel the excreta into the truck, which could be regularly emptied. Objection has been raised to the pan system on the grounds that some men do not care to use the seats after other men ?—T think that would meet the approval of the miners. ' 13. At any rate you want some system ; so long as it is reasonable and regularly attended to you do not mind which system is adopted? —Yes. Then, my union holds that there should be baths erected at each mine. 14. Plunge or shower baths? —Plunge and shower —you want a plunge, because you require to wash all over. 15. Some men object to the plunge because the men neglect to empty the water out when they have finished? —We advocate the provision of both plunge and showers. 16. How many men do you think should go to one bath —supposing there were one hundred men employed, how many baths would be required?— About twenty would be reasonable, T think. 17. That is, one bath to every five men ? —Yes.

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18. If the election of baths by the management were made compulsory, should the men be compelled to use them? —1 think it should be discretionary. A man's home may be handy to the mine, in which case he would not need to use the bath, but if he lived any distance away he would bath at the mine. ... 19. How could the management decide as to how may men to make provision for?— Simply by the number of men employed. 20. But you do not know how many men are going to use the baths? —That depends upon the men's habitations, as 1 said before. 21. You would advocate one bath for every five men whether they used them or not? —Yes. 22. And leave their use optional with the men?— Yes ; that is only reasonable. 23. Have you any suggestions to offer as to the prevention of accidents? —My union suggests systematic timbering, to which T have already referred, with a view to preventing accidents. 24. Have you anything to say as to explosives? —Yes, we hold that no one should be allowed to fire shots except mine officials. 25. Mr. Dnwgray .] AVhat is your opinion in regard to inexperienced men starting on the coal and having charge of working-places?—l reckon that no man should have charge of a face who has not been in a mine three or four , years at least. 26. It has been suggested in some places that a man should have at least two years' experience in a coal-mine and three months along with an experienced man before he takes charge of a face?— I think that limit is too short, for the simple reason that boys go into the coal-mines at very early ages. It would be well to have a stated age below which a man should not be in charge of a place, as well as the provision that a man must have three years' experience. He would be capable after three years. Boys of sixteen and seventeen go to work in the mines. 27. Is it customary for a boy sixteen or seventeen years of age to start on a coal-face? —Yes, I have taken my own son in when he has been that age. 28. You think a man should have at least five years' experience' —From seventeen to twenty they should have three years' experience, and after that five years. 29. And if he is over twenty-three?—lf he is over twenty-three he should understand coalmining. 30. But in any case a man under twenty-three should not be allowed to take charge, of a working-place?— Yes. 31. What is your opinion of chains being used on these long jigs instead of ropes?— The only objection I have to chain jigs is on account of the noise they make 32. Is there any danger caused by the noise? —Yes, you cannot hear what is going on so well as with the rope, which is more silent. 33. You think accidents would be avoided if ropes were used? —Yes. 34. But at the face you could hardly do without a chain? —Well, that would depend on the method of working. Perhaps a short chain would work better there than a rope. 35. It has been suggested that there should be an anchor-chain on all face-jigs?— Yes, to prevent runaways it would be a good thing. 36. Is your ventilation satisfactory? —1 am not working in a mine at the_ present time. The last I was in was the North Brunner, and the ventilation there did not give satisfaction. 37. Was there a fan there? —Yes. 38. Mr. Reed.} You recommend a quality standard for ventilation in preference to a quantity standard. How would you determine the presence of gas? —We hold that if there is not sufficient ventilation to carry the smoke away, say, from 3 ft," to 5 ft. per second, the place is not well ventilated. ■ - 39. That is a velocity standard, not a quality standard? —Yes —to carry the smoke away. 40. So that you do not determine the presence of gas at all? —That is a gas. 41. Which is?— Powder-smoke. 42. The only thing that troubles you is the powder-smoke? —Yes, because it is more detectable than anything else. 43 'As regards systematic timbering, which you considered should be made compulsory, are you aware that there'is little or no timber in some coal-mines—the Taupiri Mine at Huntly, for instance—and yet they have very few falls? Do you not think it would be a hardship for a mine like that to require to "be systematically timbered ?—Has there never been an accident at that mmc? 44. Only one in thirty years?— Well, for that one accident they would be justified in putting in the timber. . , ... 45 I do not know whether it Was proved that it was the lack of timbering that caused that accident. Would you recommend that all mines should be systematically timbered?— Yes. 46. You recommended pans in every incline for sanitary purposes? —Yes. 47 Would that be in the intake or the return?—ln the dead ends. 48. Not in an incline, then—you amend your evidence?—l say they should be in a dead endnot in an air-course. .... 49 In regard to compulsory bathing, would you recommend that every man living in close proximity to the mine should be compelled to use the baths?—No, it might pay a man better to co home to bathe if he lived close. * 50. In the event of the whole of the men living close to the colliery, the men would not use the baths?—A certain section of them would not, 51 Do you not think a great number would not use them?—lt is a new thing, and should be o-iven a trial I should not be in favour of the compulsion. 52 It might be an expensive matter for the companies to erect the baths ?-I cannot see where the expense is going to come in.

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53. In Europe they find that it costs £5 per man to provide baths?—We do not want to go into the question of the cost. It is not the management which pays the cost—it is the consumer of the coal. 54. If you add to the cost of production you raise the'price to the consumer! —Yes, to the public. 55. So it is the public which will bear the expense of the experiment?— Yes, but ] do not think it is an experiment. 56. Bui did you not say it should be tried to see whether the men living near the mine would use the baths?—T said it was justified. 57. As regards the noise from jig-chains, do you know of any accident which you can attribute to the noise caused by then)?— Yes. There is a man here named Cherrie who was caught and injured by a runaway truck in the Wallsend Mine twenty years ago. T could also enumerate a number of other similar cases. 58. You recommended chains for short jigs?— Yes. there is more noise in a long jig than in a short one —sa}', for a 14-yard pillar. 59. Will you give us your reasons why you would prefer a chain to a rope for a 14-yard pillar? —Simply because it is more easily worked—you have more power on the brake. 60. Mr. Cochrane.] I wish to be clear as to the rate you desire the current of air to travel- ■ how many feet per minute?— From 3 ft. to 5 ft. per second. 61. Mr. Dowc/ray .] The short jig you referred to is the face-jig?— Yes, the face-jig.

Blackball (Stevenson's Hall).— 30th October, 1911. Walter Hohrrs sworn and examined. (No. 67.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you ?—-A miner. 2. How long have you been mining ?—T have been practically thirty years in and about mines. 3. You are secretary of the union here ?—Yes, secretary of the Blackball Union. 4. What is the strength of your union ? —Our membership is about two hundred at the present time. 5. Have you discussed at your union the matters which you are about to bring before the Commission '<■. —Yes. 6. Are you unanimous upon them ? —Yes. 7. What matters do you wish to speak on ? —ln regard to ventilation, my union considers that the 150 cubic feet of air per man should sweep undiminished along the airways and right up to the face where the men are employed ; and, further, that in any part of a mine where noxious gas is found the air should be increased sufficiently to sweep all the noxious gases from the face. We also believe that the air should be split into sections. At the present time you will find that where, say, two hundred men are employed one current of air is serving the majority of them, whereas each section should get the full quantity. 8. How is it dealt with in the Blackball Mine % —lt is split into three sections. 9. Does each split of air go direct to the return airway \ —No, that is the trouble; that is what ive require. The air should go to the return instead of passing over other men. Then, we are of opinion that proper sanitary arrangements shou'd be prov ded in all mines. 10. Have, you any suggestion to make as to the system which should be adopted?—My union prefers the pan system. They consider that there should be one pan for each bank at the least. 11. There is an objection on the part of some miners to using a common seat, and we have received a suggestion that a truck should be used in a dead-end, with a shovel, and that the truck should be emptied regularly ?—Well, your suggestion as to a truck has'not been considered by our union, but from your description it may be the better s stem. 12. At any rate, you want some system ?—Yes. we want some sanitary arrangement provided. Then, there is the matter of change and bath houses. We consider that these should also be provided, and that there should be hot and cold water for the baths. 13. Shower or plunge baths, which do you prefer ?—I think our members would prefer the showers. 14. And what proportion of men should go to a Jjath ?— Probably four or five men to a bath. 15. On what proportion of the men employed in a mine, willing to use them, would you ask for baths to be installed ? Would you say that baths should be erected : f 50 per cent., or 75 per cent., or 25 per cent, of the men desired to use them ?—Speaking locally, I should say that you could put the whole of the men in, because it would be a very small proportion of the men who would not require them. It stands to reason that the miner knows that he runs the risk of contracting different diseases by remaining in hia wet, sweaty clothes. Quite 90 per cent, of them, would use the change and bath houses. 16. There has been a suggestion that ihe use of the baths by the men should be made compulsory : what do you say to such a suggestion ?—I shou'd be inclined to make it compulsory, unless in certain cases and for strong reasons—for instance, such as a married man living handy to the mine. 17. There have also been suggestions made that the men should contribute towards the upkeep of the baths and have some say in their management ?—I do not consider that the men should have any part in their upkeep; the industry should be forced to erect the baths. Then, for the prevention of accidents, there should be a system of timbering introduced and made, compulsory. Under present

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conditions the miner has the right to timber a place practically as he pleases, but I believe if there were a compulsory system of timbering —that props or sets should not be more than 4 ft. apart—it would save many accidents which at present occur. 18. You would make it compulsory to have a set at least every 4 ft. ? —Yes, and props the same. There is a good deal of risk taken by the very best miners. They often think the roof is sound, and neglect to examine it. 19. Have you anything to suggest as to accidents from explosives % Have you shot-firers here, or do you fire your own shots % —The miners fire their own shots in this mine. 20? Have you any preference for shot-firers % —I do not think we have had an accident from the handling of explosives, but I believe myself it would be more satisfactory if shot-firers were employed. 21. You do not fire any number of shots at once, so you have no difficulty about lighting them ? —No. In a roadway where the roof is broken, instead of using sets or props, I consider it would be safer to use chocks, say, 4 ft. 6 in. apart. 22. You would want a very wide roadway, then ? —I believe it would pay to excavate for the distance required. 23. Have you anything to say as to opening out or breaking away bords I—Yes,1 —Yes, I think they should be from 8 ft. to 10 ft. wide for a start for the first 3 yards. 24. Would you provide a maximum width I —l would not extend a bord beyond 18 ft. wide. 25. Have you any difficulty with wide bords ? In some of the mines we found the bords being driven very wide, and the pillars being robbed ? —We have no such trouble here. In connection with the prevention of accidents, we consider that the check inspectors appointed by the miners have not sufficient power to do any good for the men. My union also considers that the Inspector of Mines is appointed by the Government to see the Act carried out, and we think he is not doing this. He seems to favour the company in preference to the workmen, and we think that if the check inspectors were given more power it would assist us a great deal. 26. In what direction ? —That the recommendations of the check inspectors as to extra timbering and other matters should be carried out. 27. That matter has been discussed, and a suggestion came from the Commission that if the check inspectors wanted greater powers they should submit to an examination similar to that which a deputy has to undergo, in order to show that they were capable of exercising those powers ? —Well, I should not favour that. According to my experience, the miners choose the most practical and best men for their check inspectors, and I have never seen them make a mistake. Moreover, most of the minemanagers will admit that the men have been really practical men. I have never heard a mine-manager say anything against a check-inspector yet, so far as his knowledge was concerned. 28. There has been another suggestion made that, instead of granting by statute extended powers to the check inspectors, the Inspector of Mines should have the power to grant to check inspectors extended rights of inspection I—You mean as to the number of visits a check inspector is entitled to make into a mine. Well, so far as that is concerned we have no trouble. The check inspectors here have had no difficulty in going into the mine at any time. The mine-managers are willing to let them do so, and I think they should be allowed to do so. If everything is aboveboard the mine-manager should have no objection to the men inspecting the different places at any time. Another point I wish to mention is in connection with pillar-workings. My union considers that after a pillar has commenced to be removed not more than two men should be allowed to work extracting that pillar unless there is a pillar 8 yards thick between them and another pair of men. That is as a matter of safety. In pillarextraction there is a constant creep going on, and consequently a good deal of risk, and my union is of opinion that two men are plenty to be working there unless there is a pillar 8 yards thick between them and other men. We also consider that the Government of the country should see that a mine should be driven to its boundary before coal is extracted, as a means of safety. The block-out system is the safest, and should be adopted. 29. That is both for bords and pillars I —Yes; they should be worked on the block-out system, or what we call " jigging "in coal-mines. The use of chains has been the cause of accidents, by reason of the noise they make. The men cannot hear any indications of a creep which may be going on, and they think the wire rope should be adopted instead of a chain. 30. Have you blocks and anchor chains on your jigs ? —No, I think not. 31. Have you anything to say as to the necessity for them ?—lt would be safer to have them. 32. Mr. DowgrayJ] In connection with jig-chains, you can hardly avoid using the chain on facejigs—the chains you refer to would be those below the face-jig ?—Yes, they would have to use the chain on the short jig up the face. 33. And the anchor chain you referred to also is in connection with the face-jig ?—Yes. 34. In connection with bath-houses, you said your union preferred showers : do they prefer them in a line or separated by screens I —They prefer them separated. 35. The Chairman.] There was a suggestion to have galvanized-iron stalls high enough to screen each man off I—Yes,1 —Yes, that would be a suitable arrangement. 36. Mr. Dowgray.] In conjunction with the showers, would you want hand-basins ? —Yes, they would be necessary. 37. In connection with timbering, you said that your union was in favour of systematic timbering, 4 ft. apart, in all mines. Do you not think it would be a better system if the mine-manager, the men, and the Inspector of Mines were to draw up a code of special rules for each particular colliery ? In one mine timbering 4 ft. apart might be satisfactory, but not in another ? —I do not know how that would work. 38. It would meet your case if you got systematic timbering ?—Yes. 39. And, in regard to check inspectors' powers, is the power you want the power to stop a place if it is considered by the men to be dangerous ? —Yes, until it is inspected by the Inspector of Mines along with the check inspector.

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. 40. Do you want the Government Inspector to have the power to prosecute without referring to any one else ? —Yes ; but I understood the Inspector of Mines always had that power. 41. You would be in favour of his powers being extended also ?—Yes. 42. Mr. Cochrane. l In regard to this timbering which you advocate, in many mines, such as lignitemines, there is no timbering required : would you insist on systematic timbering in such mines ? —Yes, I would. Ido not consider any mine should be without protection for the men working there. If a mine is worth working at all, the first thing to look to is the safety of the men. No mine should be worked without timbering for protection. • 43. Mr. Reed.] Have you ever been in the Taupiri Mine ?—No. 44. I dare say you have heard of it : they do not take out their pillars, and their bords are not wider than 9 ft. There is hardly any timber, and yet in thirty years there has been only one accident. Now, in such a case as that, do you not think it would be a great hardship to insist upon timbering where it is absolutely not required ? —ls there any pillar-extraction ? 45. No, they cannot take them out there I—lf1 —If the mine is not being worked by pillar-extraction, then the supports are left. There may be one mine good enough to work in the solid like that, but that is an exceptional case. 46. Under those conditions would it not be an extreme hardship to saddle the management by making them timber when timbering would be of no use ?—There is this in it: the mines certainly pay to work, and if the miners are practical men and suggest that timbering is required, they know, and it should be done. 47. In this case the miners do not suggest it ? —T am only speaking from my own personal experience. 48. In regard to ventilation, you stated that 150 ft. of air should sweep undiminished. You do not mean us to take that absolutely, because.the air cannot sweep undiminished—you must lose air through stoppings and leakage. You would like 150 ft. of air per man at each working-face I —Yes. 49. Now, supposing there were no noxious gas in a place, and two men were working there, would 300 ft. of air be sufficient to supply those men ?—T would not like to say that, but if there were no noxious gas 300 ft. would suit. 50. Then that 300 ft. of air would go round the next bord after it had served those men, and it would suit the next men too ?—I do not know that, because it would be diminished. T mean that there should be 150 ft. of air for each man. 51. The Chairman.] Do you mean, undiminished in quality or in quantity?—ln quality and quantity as well. 52. Mr. Reed.] But the first two men must exhaust some oxygen from the air. You see the difficulty in sending the air undiminished round the mine—it cannot be done ?—The Act at the present time says it must be done. 53. It does not say the quantity shall be supplied at the face ?—I take it that it means that. 54. You wish for 150 ft. per man ? —Yes. 55. And 300 ft. for two men ? —Yes. My instructions are to request that 150 ft. per man be provided, and that it should sweep undiminished up to the working-face. 56. You referred to chocks : what is the maximum height of seam that chocks are effective with ?—I consider that chocks are effective at any height. 57. Would you put chocks into a seam 20 ft. high ? —Yes. 58. You said that the Inspector of Mines favours the company : which Inspector do you mean ? —I will make no mention of names, but to us, when a crisis crops up, it seems that the Inspector always favours the company. ' 59. What gave you that impression ?—Several incidents. 60. How long ago ? —ln one particular instance about two and a half years ago. 61. There have been two Inspectors since then. Have you had any instance of it since then ? —I know of none since then. Matthew Hall sworn and examined. (No. 68.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ?—A miner. 2. With how many years' experience ?—About twenty-four. 3. Are you a check inspector ? —Yes. 4. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission ?—I wish to corroborate the evidence of the previous witness. 5. Is there anything you wish to add to has said? — Well, in regard to sanitation, Mr. Rogers suggested the pan system, but since hearing the discussion which has taken place I think the truck system would be preferable, though I have never seen either of them used myself. 6. What is your opinion of the suggestion that check inspectors should submit to an examination if they want extended statutory powers ? —I do not think it should be necessary to ask miners to sit for an examination like that. 7. But, you see, the Inspector of Mines, mine-manager, and the deputy has to submit to an examination and obtain a certificate before accepting a responsible position, and you are asking for powers practically equivalent to those of the Inspector of Mines ?—Scarcely those powers. We only would like to be able to say whether a place is unsafe to work in, and if the check inspector is a practical miner, as he is, he should be able to judge that. 8. So you do not think the suggestion as to the examination of check inspectors should be given effect to ?—No. 9. Mr. Doioqray.] You say you favour the truck system for sanitation ? —Yes, since hearing the explanation of it. 10. There is plenty of cinders and slack for use ?—Yes.

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Walter Meadowcsopt sworn and examined. (No. 69.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you ?—A miner. 2. Are you a check inspector ? —Yes. 3. How many years' experience have you had ?—About fourteen years. 4. You have heard the evidence given by the first witness, Mr. Rogers : do you corroborate it ?—Yes. 5. Do you wish to add anything to his statement, or vary it in any way ? —I agree with what Mr. Rogers has said on the matter of sanitation. I think the tub system would be better than the pan system. 6. Have you anything further to add ?—1 would like to say that our objection to the use of chains is that they are not properly attended to —they are not annealed as they should be. They should be taken out and heated to a dull-red heat, so that any flaw may be detected in them. From my experience I should say the wire rope is the better. 7. Have you ever known the chains to break ? —Yes. 8. Have you known any accidents caused that way ?—Yes, I have known men to be injured by chains breaking. 9. Have you ever known falls or accidents occur as the result of vibration set up by the chains ? —Yes, and I have seen props pulled out by them. I do not think the rope would cause so much vibration and noise. 10. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you mean to infer that a rope is required on the face-jig too ?—Yes, with the wheels that are in use at the present time. 11. How are you going to get over the difficulty of the place going up ?—You would have to have a little chain, or they could lengthen the rope. There would be a chain on each side to hook the empty and full tubs on to. If the chains were properly looked after it would be better both for the men and the management. 12. You mean there should be a wheel used instead of a prop and two fish-plates ? —Yes. 13. Mr. Parry.] What is your opinion of a man having to have two years' experience with a practical miner before being given charge of a place ?—He should be required to work eighteen months or two years before he is allowed to take a place —between eighteen months and two years. 14. In connection with the extraction of pillars, do you think it would have a tendency to minimize accidents if pillars were extracted only on one shift ?—Yes, if that were done I do not think there would be so many accidents as there are at the present time. 15. Mr. Reed.] In regard to the Blackball Mine, you have no complaints to make ?—No, the method of working this pit is good ; but the men must protect themselves against accidents, and whenever we get the opportunity we intend to do so. 16. You consider the Government inspection is good ?—Yes ; but I agree with what Mr. Rogers has said as to inspection of mines. 17. Is there any firedamp in this mine \ —Yes. 18. Do they use plenty of brattice ? —Yes. 19. What is the ventilating-power ?—A fan. 20. How long does it take the fan to clear the smoke out ? —Several hours in places. 21. Is the fan not powerful enough, then ? —The fan is powerful enough, but I do not think the ventilation is properly conducted. Of course, the brattice gets torn down by the trucks. 22. Mr. Dmvgray.] Is the brattice led right up to the face ?—No, not in some places. 23. In regard to the complaint which Mr. Rogers made about the men working in the pillars, does that not apply to Blackball ?—Yes. 24. Mr. Parry.] What other mines have you worked in ? —Only Denniston. 25. How does Denniston compare with this mine as regards smoke ?—lt would not compare with this one at all. 26. Which is the worse mine for smoke ? —I think there is not much to choose between the two, but the compressed air blew out the smoke at Denniston. Of course, at that time there were no pick-and-shovel men there ; it was all filling. Harry Chilton sworn and examined. (No. 70.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ? —A miner. 2. With how many years' experience ?—About twenty. 3. Are you a check inspector ? —Yes. 4. You have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses : do you corroborate it ?—Yes, 1 would like to corroborate Mr. Rogers's evidence, on the whole. 5. Have you anything to add to it I—l would like to clear up what appeared to be a misapprehension as to what he wanted in the way of ventilation. I think he said that not less than 150 ft. should be provided, but he did not stipulate for 150 ft. as a hard-and-fast rule. 6. What are your views on that point I —That there should be not less than 150 ft. ; you can have as much more than that as you like, but not under it. 7. Supposing there were twenty men working in one place in a mine, how many feet of air would you require to be supplied ? —That could be worked out. 8. That was the object of some of the questions put to Mr. Rogers ?—Yes, but I am not able to work it out. lam a miner, not a chemist. 9. At any rate, you want 150 ft. of good air delivered to each man where he is working ? —Yes. I wish also to say that I think the truck system of sanitation would be preferable to the pan system, but ashes or other material should be provided for use with the truck. lam also in favour of timbering, say, not more than 4 ft. apart. The English Act has a general rule on the subject, and we could have a similar one. Their rule was made about three years ago.

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10. Supposing power were given to the Inspector of Mines, a representative of the management, and one from the men to draw up rules for each separate mine according to the local conditions, and those rules to have the force of law, would that not meet the case ?—Yes, I am in favour of something on those lines —that is, on the style of the special rules in the Old Country. 11. You think that would be a satisfactory system ? —Yes. 12. The difficulty about making a hard-and-fast rule is that it might not apply to all mines. Take the mine at Huntly which Mr. Reed instanced, it would be a hardship there ? —Yes ; but that difficulty was got over in the Old Country —in Staffordshire, where I came from. They worked in rock —in stone drives —they had three props, and carried the last prop forward. 13. Mr. Parry.] Do you corroborate the last witness in regard to a man requiring to have two years' experience with a practical man before being allowed to have charge of a place ? —Yes, I would say two years. 14. And in connection with the extraction of pillars on one shift, so that no man should be compelled to follow another, because he would not understand his timbering ? —Well, I would hardly like to express an opinion on that point, because, generally, a man selects his cross-mates and they work together. There is another matter I want to refer to. I have seen the difficulty got over, which Mr. Dowgray was inquiring about, in regard to the chain. You take, say, 100 yards of rope, and you have as much unrolled off the coil as is necessary to jig for the time being, the rest being lashed together and hung on the back of the skip. As you go on just sufficient is unrolled —that is, for jigging one truck at a time. There was a wheel used there. 15. Mr, Dowgray.~] It is the chain down below that is objectionable ?—Yes; but I have seen the other idea working. 16. Mr. Reed.] In regard to sanitary matters, what sanitary arrangements did you have in Staffordshire ? —The men went into the old workings, as they do here. 17. Was that not perfectly satisfactory ? —Only as long as they were old workings. 18. The Royal Commission reported that it was better for men to relieve themselves before going into the mine, and in the event of there being plenty of coaldust that that should be used in preference to the pan system, but in those portions of a mine where there was no dust the pan system should be used ?—I think it should be taken outside the mine in every instance. 19. Is not coaldust a good deodorizer and disinfectant ? —I have not gone into the chemical properties of coaldust. Ido not know. 20. I have seen pans used, but have never known them anything but offensive —they are not cleanly. Have you ever worked in mines where they have been used ? —No. 21. Do you know why the British colliers do not requisition for baths ?—I could not say. The subject was never discussed in our district in any shape or form. 22. You think it is better for the men to have baths ? —Yes. 23. But they prefer to wash at home when they live near the mine ?■ —Yes, some do. 24. Have you worked in the 10-yard seam at Dudley ?—No, I do not know South Staffordshire— only the north. 25. You do not know anything about the use of chocks in these big seams ? —Yes. 26. Up to what height have you seen them used ?—Up to 18 ft. 27. Effectively ?—Yes. 28. On what method did they work in your part of Staffordshire when extracting the coal ? — On much the same style as they do here. 29. How many men work on a pillar ?—Only two. 30. During your experience have you worked much on the night shift ? —Yes, a fair amount. 31. Have you reason to believe that accidents are more frequent on the night shift than on the day shift ? —Yes, I have known a few more on the night shift, but I think there is not much difference. 32. To what do you attribute that ?—I have never reasoned it out myself. 33. Comparing the Government inspection in Staffordshire and here, do you consider our inspection as thorough as the British inspection ? —Yes, they are much on the same level. 34. Do you think the inspectors visit the mines more frequently here ?• —I really could not say, but I should think so. 35. Is it long since you left England '—Three years. 36. You are only speaking in regard to this mine ? —Yes. 37. Mr. Dowgray.] In connection with the baths, what reason did you give why the British miaers did not use the baths ?—I have never heard the question discussed. 38. You are not aware that their reason was because of the compulsory clauses ? —No, it was never argued in our district.

Nelson Courthouse. —2nd November, 1911. James Phillips sworn and examined. (No. 71.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ? —A miner. 2. How many years' experience have you had I —About thirty-two. 3. Where ? —Two years here, and thirty in Scotland. 4. Are you a check inspector, or do you hold any position in the union ?—No, simply that of a member. 5. Have you been appointed by the union to come here and give evidence 1- —Yes. 6. What is the strength of your union ? —About fifty.

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J. PHILLIPS.]

7. How many men are employed altogether I —Somewhere about thirty underground in the daytime. 8. What matters do you wish to lay before the Commission I—The1 —The instructions I received were in regard to ventilation and sanitation. Respecting ventilation, the complaint of the men is that the air is not distributed throughout the workings. There is not sufficient ventilation to clear away the foul gas and powder-smoke. 9. What is the system of ventilation: is it natural ventilation ?—They have a fan. 10. An exhaust fan ? —Yes. 11. Do you know its capacity 1— No. 12. You work in that mine ?—Yes. 13. How many sections are there in the mine I—Four. 14. Is the air split for these sections I—Not1 —Not that I am aware of. 15. Is it an inclined drive % —Yes. 16. How does the air go to the lower dip I—lt goes down one side and back up the other. 17. Does the return air pass through the working-faces on the return side % —There is nobody working on the return side. The air passes through the whole four sections. 18. How many men are there in each section % —About four. 19. You do not complain about the quantity of air entering the mine—it is the distribution ?- — Yes. 20. Is there not sufficient brattice % —lt is the want of stoppings which is the trouble. If there were more stoppings the ventilation would be better. 21. Does the air go into the old workings, or how does it escape ? —Down where the machines are cutting the men say they have no air. The only air they get is compressed air, and they cannot always get that. 22. How often does the Inspector of Mines visit the district %■ —He comes very regularly. 1 cannot say how often. 23. Do you know whether his attention has been drawn to the distribution of the air %■ —1 could not say. I have never been working in a bad place. Where I work the air is sufficient. It is the men on the lower section who complain. , 24. And you think the "ventilation could be remedied by stoppings and an improvement in the distribution % —Yes. 25. Have you any other matters you wish to refer to % —ln regard to the sanitary conditions of the mine, we are badly in need of an improvement in the way of some sanitary arrangements where we are. I was down there one night, and it was very bad to pass through it. 26. Where is it ? —ln the stentons in the old workings. 27. In the return airway % —No, in the intake, where the air passes down to the men. 28. What is the distance from the intake to where it is % —I suppose, about 20 to 30 chains. 29. What is the grade % —About 1 in 3. 30. The men do not go to the surface ? —No. 31. Now, what sort of system would you advocate \ —They should set apart a place, and have a box or an ordinary truck with some dust or other material handy, and the men could put it into the truck, which could be emptied regularly. 32. That system has been advocated in several places, and also the pan system, but there has been some objection taken to the latter on the ground that the men do not care to follow one another and use the same seat. You would be satisfied with the truck system ? —Yes. In one place where I was there was a stable, and the men set the place apart for that purpose. 33. There is no stable where you are now ? —No, nothing. 34. Have you any complaints to make in regard to accidents % —No, that is one good point about Puponga ; it is very safe to work in. 35. Do you work in the pillars ?■—Yes. They are about 8 ft. 6 in. 36. Do you take all the coal out I —Yes. And it is a fairly good roof. 37. Do you use timber? —Yes. 38. Do you draw the timber V —Yes. 39. What system of drawing timber do you use ? —The chain-and-lever system. 40. Do you find that satisfactory ?—Yes, as far as I have seen. I had not seen this system till 1 came here ; what I had seen was the Sylvester system. 41. What is the difference between the two systems ?• —The Sylvester, in my opinion, is more powerful, and you can get further back, but if you cut a prop you can put more power on to it. 42. Now, about baths and change-houses ?— We have baths and change-houses at the present time, but the men are dissatisfied with them. . | 43. In what way I—Every1—Every man goes in and strips, and walks under two sprays. They advocate separate baths screened off. 44. There are only two showers I—Yes.1 —Yes. 45. How many miners use them ? —About fifteen or sixteen. 46. Out of fifty I—Yes.1 —Yes. Of course, there are more men on the other shift. About half the men use the baths. 47. Supposing these showers were built in the form of stalls, with screens round them, do you think they would be more used ?—Yes, the men say so. I have always used the baths, but plenty of men will not do so because every one has to go in collectively. 48. How many men should be accommodated by one shower % —Well, four under each is quite sufficient. 49. Do they all go in together I—l1 —I have seen twelve in together.

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50. What kind of spray is it ?■ —The spray is provided by kerosene-tins with holes in the bottom. 51. Is there any other matter that you wish to refer to I—Yes,1 —Yes, in regard to the Mines Act. They tell me that the Inspectors have no power apart from that of inspection. If there is a certain amount of air coming into trie mine it does not require to pass through the working-faces before the Inspector can prosecute. At Home, if there were not a certain amount of air passing through, the Inspector could send the men out and make the management put the air in. Here it is different, apparently. 52. However, you think it should be made quite clear that the quantity of air required by the men should be delivered at the face ?—Yes, sufficient air to carry away all the impurities in the face. 53. Of course, you are not troubled with extra-hot places here ? —No, it is very cool. 54. Have you had any experience of hot places % —Yes, at Home. The mines there are very deep. 55. What is your idea of a hot place—what temperature % —There is one mine abot 80 6 , I think. 56. How did you manage to work there % —There was plenty of air, but it was hot, and we worked with safety-lamps. It was far hotter than Puponga. 57. With the temperature at 80° and plenty of air, could you work ? —Yes. 58. For how many hours ? —Eight. 59. Is there any other matter you wish to deal with % —Yes, as to the length of time a man has to serve in New Zealand before getting a permit to manage a mine. 60. What is the suggestion % —lt is suggested that a man should be from three to five years at least in and about a mine before he is allowed to get a permit to work with six men. 61. Have you any opinion to offer as to what experience a miner should have before lie is given charge of a face % —Well, I think a man should have two years' experience, at any rate. 62. And for pillars ?—Yes, some time extra for pillars. And then, when he does go into a coalmine, I think he should work with an experienced man for a while. 63. Have you any experience of workings other than pillar-workings ?—Yes, I have worked longwall for years. 64. How do you think they compare ?—Longwall is the safer system. 65. That is, in a low seam % —Yes, from 2 ft. to 2 ft. 6 in., and up to as high as 4 ft. 66. Mr. Dowgray.] In a longwall seam, what length of wall has one pair of men ? —On an average, from 12 to 14 yards—4o ft. to 50 ft. 67. Under that system you would not be working all together as you are in pillars ?—No. 68. In the pillars in the Puponga Mine how many men work together ? —Two men in every pillar. In the Old Country there was never more than four in a pillar. 69. What was the size of the pillars in the Old Country ?—From 80 ft. to 90 ft. 70. Much larger than they are here ? —Yes. 71. So that the four men working there would not annoy men with the noise of their shovels ?— No, not until they came to the end, and then sometimes they were taken away. 72. What is your idea of more than two men working in a pillar here ?—I think it would be very unsafe for more than two men to work in one pillar. 73. In connection with the air at Puponga, are we to understand that it makes a short circuit into the return ? —Yes. 74. Returning to the stoppings, is the end of the main road not bratticed off % —There are not sufficient stoppings to send the air right down where these men are working. 75. Would there be any difficulty in making any of these separate sections ventilate themselves by splits ?—lt would not be an easy matter, but it might be done. It would be very expensive. If there were stoppings the air could be conducted down and then brattice led in. 76. In regard to the bath-houses, have you hand-basins % —There is only one basin. 77. Do you think there ought to be hand-basins as well as shower-baths ?—Yes ; and they also require a method of drying clothes—there is no appliance for the purpose at present. 78. You said you worked in a coal-mine in the Old Country where the temperature was 80° : which mine was that ? —Hallside Colliery. 79. Did you see the temperature taken there I—No, I am only guessing the heat of the place. 80. Mr. Fletcher.] How many colliers are there &i Puponga ? —About thirty. 81. All on the day shift ?— Yes. 82. Do they work singly or doubly ? —Doubly. 83. Then there will be about fifteen places ?—Yes. 84. Are there stoppings down the incline to the landing ? —No. 85. But the air goes down undiminished to the landing ? —No. 86. On the inby side of the landing ? —Yes. 87. How far are you working from the landing 1 ? — I am about half-way down- 1 am near the top. There would be sufficient air to go down to those men if it were led into each man's face by brattice. 88. What kind of fan is employed I—l1 —I do not know. 89. Mr. Cochrane.] You said there were ten or twelve men in the bath-house at once ?—Yes. 90. But are there not separate kerosene-tins ? —Only two. 91. Then, you told us about Hallside Colliery : how many fathoms down is that seam so hot ?— 250 fathoms down ; then there is a dip running down. 92. In which mine were you working longwall I—Hallside,1 —Hallside, and also in the Glasgow Coal Company's mine. I had been working about twelve years before I left Home. 93. But the longwall system would not be suitable for Puponga ?—No. 94. Do you take advantage, of the clause in the Act in connection with workmen's inspections 1— No. 95. Why ?—Well, the powers of the workmen's inspectors are so limited that it is not worth the trouble.

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96. If there were an extension of their powers would you take advantage of it I—Yes, I believe we would. 97. What power would you require ?—Power for a competent man to inspect the place, and, if he thought it dangerous, to say it was unsafe, and be able to stop it until the Inspector came to inspect it. 98. And leave it then in the hands of the Inspector of Mines ?—Yes. 99. What is your opinion in regard to the extraction of pillars with two shifts?—lt has been a failure, in my experience, all the time. 100. You thank it would be safer to extract them on one shift ? —Yes. 101. Mr. Dowgray.] Is it customary to extract pillars with only one shift in the Old Country?—Yes. practically. John Atkinson sworn and examined. (No. 72.) 1. The Chairman .] What are you ? —A coal-miner. 2. How many years' experience have you had ? —About twenty-three. 3. Where ?—Fourteen years in Australia and nine in New Zealand. 4. In which mines in New Zealand ? —ln the Westport Coal Company's mines and at Puponga. 5. How long have you been at Puponga ?—Eight and a half years. 6. Do you hold any office in the mine ? —No. 7. Are you a member of the union ?—Yes, only a member. 8. You have heard the evidence of the last witness : do you corroborate it ?—Yes. 9. Entirely ?—Yes. 10. Have you anything to add to what he has said? — Yes, there is one matter I would like to speak on. Some five years ago, as near as I can recollect —I was working on the coal at the time— the deputy ordered me to clean the sump out. It was a dam where all the filth ran into. Through my going in to clean this out with a bucket I got blood-poisoning in both legs, and was off work for some fourteen weeks, but could get no compensation because the insurance company would not consider it an accident. 11. What do you attribute the blood-poisoning to ? —To the water and the filth in it —to the insanitary condition of the mine. 12. So you advocate systematic sanitation ? —Yes. 13. What haye you to say to the truck system ? —I prefer the truck to the pan system: many men whom I know would not use a seat after other men. There is another matter I would like to mention, in regard to timbering. A great deal depends on the setting of the timber. It must be set according to the fall or pitch of the ground. I have known men to set a prop 6 in. short, and stickthat prop on top of a piece of stone. Then, when you came on on the next shift you would not , know of it, whereas if you put the prop up yourself you would know all about it. 14. You advocate that pillars should be worked on one shift ?—Yes. 15. About how many men on a pillar would you advocate ? —About two. 16. What class of roof have you ?—lt is a good roof. 17. How many men do you work on the pillars ? —Two. 18. Mr. DowgrayJ] Have you any jigs there ? —Yes. 19. Are they worked with a chain ?—Yes. 20. It has been suggested in some other places that there should be an anchor chain attached to all face-jigs : have you ever seen that system in vogue —a stationary chain with the truck anchored by it. Do you think that system would minimize accidents ? —lt would, but the sheets at Puponga are satisfactory. 21. When they take the full truck off at the bottom is the full truck not apt to run away ?—Yes, but we get a rail and make a hole in the bottom, and put the rail below the truck. 22. When you have one or two jigs running together, do you still use chains, or ropes ?—We use a rope sometimes. 23. The Chairman.] Do you use the rope to any extent ? —Yes, there are one or two in use. 24. It is the more satisfactory ?—The rope and the wheel is the easiest to work, and makes less noise. IS 25. And how about the safety of working ?—lt is very safe. 26. Is it as convenient as the chain ? Do you lose any more time with it ?—No, practically less ; in places the rope is superior. I want to ask whether anything can be done for the coal-miner in the way of legislating as regards an accident. 27. Mr. Dowgray.] What is your experience "in regard to that ? —I think they ought to legislate for a miner and not for a new-chum. I have been in a mine where there have been twenty or thirty men working, and not five coal-miners amongst them. They put up props which you expect to be safe to work under, but soon find that they are not so. You find they are not set with the lay of the ground and will not carry the weight. I think every man ought to hole and cut his coal properly ; they blow the coal out with gelignite instead of cutting it. If my suggestion were adopted there would not bo half the smoke you get in a mine at present. 28. If the coal were prepared property there would not be so much smoke ?—That is so. Robert McEwan sworn and examined. (No. 73.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ?—A mine-manager. 2. What experience have you had ? —lt is about forty-three years since I entered a mine first. I have not been all the time in the mines—l have been out for some ten years during that period. 3. How long have you been a manager ?—About eight years and a half. 4. All the time at Puponga, ?—No.

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5. Where were you before that ?—Hikurangi, Drury, and Taupiri West, Huntly. 6. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission ? Firstly, in regard to the ventilation of your own mine, have you anything to say in regard to what the miners have stated ? —I wish to say that the miners have the full scope of the Act for sending their check inspectors to make examinations of the mine, and I have here a copy of the last and only check-inspection report which has been made since I took' charge. That examination was made about a month after I took charge. [Keport produced.] 7. This report is dated the 6th December, 1909 ?—Yes. No check inspection has been made since then. 8. Have they ever asked to be permitted to make an inspection ? Has there ever been any dispute or disagreement about an inspection ?—No ; as a matter of fact, I rather court inquiry by the men in such cases. I have never heard anything in the shape of a complaint about the ventilation. The Inspector of Mines has always given me a clean sheet. In the section referred to by previous witnesses as being deficient in ventilation there are four men and a trucker working, and I am satisfied that an anemometer would show very much more air than the Act requires, and it is canvassed right into the face. We have machines working with compressed air, and when shot-firing, if there is any lack of fresh air, they can put the blast on at any time. 9. Do you know your air-measurements ?—I have not an anemometer at the mine, but the last time the Inspector of Mines took the air he got 26,640 cubic feet. 10. Where was that measurement taken ?—At the intake. We had about twenty-nine men in the mine at the time, which gave a little over 900 cubic feet per man per minute. 11. How is it distributed ? —lt goes right in in one stream. I might explain that during the last eighteen months or two years we have taken a certain number of the pillars away from the east side of the main haulage dip. In the section which one witness mentioned to-day there are only two men working —there" are generally three. One of them is here to-day. Another section has only one pair of men in it. We are simply going to take out the pillars. The question of splitting the air in Puponga Mine at present is out of reason altogether. 12. Will not that removal of the pillars leave a large space for leakage of air ? —Not necessarily a leakage. 13. Will it get back into the air-course ?—Yes, we take it within 4 or 5 chains of the furthest dip. The air will almost pull the hair out of your head, it is so strong. Our fan has a capacity of 40,000 cubic feet. 14. What do you run it at I—lt was running at eighty revolutions instead of one hundred and forty. We can get plenty of air. The only trouble we have is in this new section which is being opened out, and the probable cause of the ventilation there being a little slack at times is because the intake to it is in one of the laybys where there is a considerable stream of water passing, and the hole is not so large as I would make it otherwise. Ido not want to infer that lam making this an excuse for not sending the ventilation down. As a matter of fact, we have another place just coming through, and instead of getting 150 cubic feet they will be able to get perhaps 900 ft. As I said before, we have the capacity. We are blessed with a fairly efficient fan and a good engine, and we have the power consequently to increase the ventilation at any moment. 15. In regard to bath and change houses have you anything to say ?—Well, we have some provision for bathing. I think there would be some rather peculiar statistics in regard to that if the whole matter were placed before you. Ido not want to say too much on this question, except that, crude and all as our arrangements are, they are an absolute luxury for the men. It is very much superior to what is provided in the coal-mines of New Zealand. It is the only mine in New Zealand where you get even a kerosene-tin shower-bath. There are not more than 50 per cent, of the men who take advantage of it to clean themselves when they come out of the mine. It has been assumed by one of the witnesses that that state of things was on account of the want of space and lack of privacy ; but I know of men —and the witness could have mentioned this too —who have passed those baths for two years when there was no one using the bath at all, and they could have had it all to themselves if they had wished to avail themselves of a bath. There may be something in the matter of delicacy, however, and something might be done in the shape of having less men using the different compartments ; but I am convinced by my experience there that the inducement would require to be a very strong one to make some men take advantage of the showers —in fact, you would have to tie them down to get them under the water. lam speaking candidly. 16. They are used by about 50 per cent, of them ? —Yes, about 50 per cent, of the underground workers and about 5 per cent, of the surface workers. Still, Ido not say that it would not be taken greater advantage of if there were more privacy. 17. Is there any matter you wish to bring before the Commission on your own account ? —Yes, there is just one point in connection with the pillar-work I would like to say a word on. It has been suggested by one of the witnesses that .working the double shift was dangerous. Now, I want to say that I have had very little double-shift work done, though really my experience has shown me that the quicker a pillar is taken out the safer the work is, whether it is done by double shifts or any other kind of shift. There is less liability for the roof to begin to move and come away. So that if I had a lot of pillars to work —we have very little more pillaring to do now —similar to what we have there, I should certainly double-shift them and consider I was doing that in the interests of the safety of the men. 18. The complaints have been that where pillars are being taken out .under a bad roof, too many men are worked and they cannot hear the working of the roof ? —I am quite in sympathy with that, but there should be no danger if there are only two pairs of men working, one going along the top of the pillar and one going up the side, to meet at the corner. Of course, when they are coming close together there would be a tendency of the noise being dangerous.

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19. The only objection was as to the noise ?—I cannot see where the argument would come in. If I put in a double shift there would only be two men working there at a time. 20. The objection to that is that the man coming on shift does not know the conditions left by the previous miner ?—That brings up rather an important question which has been legislated upon. I think that in cases of that kind the men coming on shift should be able to see their mates at the face. The law provides that they must have only eight hours from bank to bank, and the result is that the men meet their mates at the mouth of the mine, and have no chance to show them how the timbering is. But, apart from the timbering question, lam still strongly of opinion that the quicker a pillar is taken away the safer the work is. 21. Mr. Fletcher.] What is the size of your pillars ?— They are 36 ft. square. 22. You have a good roof ? —Yes. 23. So that there is not so much danger of working four men on a pillar as there would be with a bad roof ?—No, ours is an abnormally good roof. We are highly favoured in that respect. We have been very immune from accidents there, and that is on account of the roof. 24. How long will it be before you get that place holed through to improve the ventilation in that section you referred to ?—About a fortnight. 25. Mr. Cochrane.] Are there any men working on the afternoon shift ?—Yes, a few machine men. 26. And you keep the fan running in the afternoon I —Yes. 27. You approve of keeping the fan running ?—Yes. 28. What kind of stopping have you on the west side of the dip '—There are two doors, ordinary trap-doors. One is a double door. The other stoppings are just stone stoppings. I might say that the stoppings on the west side do not materially affect the question of ventilation which has been brought up by the witnesses. 29. But would not stoppings on the west side prevent short-circuiting of the current ?—They would prevent it more on the east side, where the ventilation is going down. There is a tendency to leakage there. I think the matter has probably been misunderstood by the other Commissioners. We work the dip from several laybys just for the purpose of getting these few pillars away. Of course when we get them finished it can be stopped up effectively. 30. Have you a plan of the mine with you ? —No. 31. You have a good second outlet ? —Yes, we have four outlets. 32. Mr. Dowgray.] It does not follow that because you get 26,642 ft. of air in your intake your mine is well ventilated I—No.1 —No. 33. That will only show you the capacity of your fan ?—Yes. 34. Was the return measured on that date you quoted ?—No, the Inspector just took the intake. 35. You said that the stoppings on the west side—which is the side of the return—would be immaterial ? —Yes. 36. Should the air not naturally find its way back to the men at the bottom of the dip ?— Yes. They could not live in it if they got all the air we get at the top ; it would blow them away. lam quite satisfied that there is more air going through these new workings than what is required by the Act. 37. Of course the 150 ft. specified in the Act is not a maximum ?— That is so, and my endeavour at all times has been not simply to comply with the Act, but to get the best ventilation possible. 38. You admit that it could be improved upon ?—Yes ;we can give more than would satisfy the requirements of the Act, and we will, in another fortnight. There will be no reason to complain about it then. As a matter of fact, I have never heard any complaints, or I might have endeavoured to give the men better air before. ~ 39. It appears that the matter has been brought up at the union's meetings ?—Yes, but 1 think it should have been reported to us. 40. In connection with your baths, I am rather pleased to find that there is a coal-mine in New Zealand which has some bathing-accommodation, even of a primitive nature. It is also gratifying, lam sure, to find that 50 per cent, of the men use the baths. If, in their present state, 50 per cent, of the men avail themselves of the baths, do you not think, say, 75 per cent, would use them under even better conditions «— Yes, they might. 41. Do you see any difficulty in regard to the use of a truck for sanitary purposes ?— JNo ; and personally I think the pan system would be more expensive to operate. Ido not think the difficulty of using a tub for sanitary purposes will be hard to get over. 42. You do not see any difficulty in instituting the tub or truck system %— No, except that there is always the matter of expense. Then again, with some men you would have, I believe, almost to tie them down and take them along in order to make them, use' it. 43. You could provide a fine for men not using the tub ?— You would have to make^stringent conditions. 44. We admit that miners do not adapt themselves easily to new conditions <— JNo. 45. In regard to working the pillars, you are of opinion that once the pillar is started the sooner it is taken out the better ?— Yes, that is my experience of Puponga, when we are not able to get back to it for, say, two or three days, on account, perhaps, of shortness of shipping accommodation. 46. Mr. Parry.] You say that it is an advantage to keep your men cool, because you get better results from them ? —Yes. 47. What is the highest temperature in your mine ?—I have never taken the temperature regularly, but there is nothing above 60° in the mine. I have seen men working there with their coats on. 48. In places where the temperature went up to any great extent, would you suggest that the hours of labour should be decreased ?—I do not know about decreasing the hours. Of course, a man would not do as much work, even if he stayed there all the time.

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49. In the event of it not being possible to reduce the temperature, what would you suggest ? — I would suggest that he should work eight hours there, but it would not be reasonable to expect him to do so much work. 50. What would you suggest to compensate that man for working the whole eight hours I—Well,1 —Well, you give him his full wages for less work. 51. The same as a man who was working in a temperature of 60° I—Yes.1 —Yes. 52. Have you worked in hot places ?—Yes. 53. In what temperature ? —7s° : and it was hot enough. 54. Do you not think that eight hours was more than sufficient to work in that temperature ? I had to do it. 55. How long ago was that ? —About twenty-six years ago.

BRIQUETTE-MANUFACTURE.

THE PROFITABLE UTILIZATION OF THE SOFT BITUMINOUS AND LIGNITE COALS OF THE WESTPORT DISTRICT.

Westport Courthouse, 13th October, 1911. Horace Tomkies sworn and examined. (No. 74.) 1. The Chairman.] You are manager of the briquette-works ?—Yes, at the present time. 2. Can you give us any information as to the cost of manufacture ? —No. I would like to explain that I have never had anything to do with the financial part of the business—all my experience has been in connection with the manufacture of the briquettes and eggettes. 3. You can give us some information on that point. First of all, will you give us the proportions of materials used in making the briquettes ? —Well, on an average a very good mixture is 8 per cent, of pitch. With some classes of coal we can use less, and with some we have to use more. 4. What coal do you use ?—The Seddonville Mine coal. 5. With that coal what proportion of pitch do you use ? —On an average, 8 per cent. 6. And are those the only ingredients —the coal and the pitch ?—Yes. Pitch is the only binder we use. 7. What class of coal do you use ? —Seddonville slack. 8. Can the coal which you use for briquetting be used for any other purpose ?—Yes, for steaming purposes. Very often at the mines they use nothing else. Shipping companies take it, but as a rule they do not care for it. 9. Have you. any idea of the market there is for it ? —No. 10. Do you know any one who uses it extensively for that purpose % —No. 11. Do you know of any other binder or any other method by which the material could be made to adhere without pitch ? —Yes, there are many binders, but none really satisfactory, for the reason that they will not stand the weather or the handling. Pitch is the only thing which stands them. 12. What are the other binders ? —Tar, starch, tar and pitch, and lime. A Mr. Shekleton had a patent process, but I do not know what his ingredients were. 13. Did you see any of the product of his process ?—Yes, we made some for him at the works. 14. How do they compare with the briquettes made with the pitch ? —Not at all well. The pitchmade article would stand the handling, but Shekleton's require to be handled like eggs. 15. How were they for burning ? —They were never tried, to my knowledge. Ido not know. 16. You do not know how they sold Was any quantity of them made ? —About 200 to 300 tons. 17. How long ago was that ? —ln the early part of last year. 18. Have you had any experience of these other binders ? —We have made a few ourselves for experimental purposes. 19. With which binders ?—Starch. And. I have made a few myself with tar. It has turned out satisfactorily with briquettes, but not so well with eggettes. 20. How did they stand the handling ? —Very well; but I found the cost of the tar was almost as high as that of the pitch. 21. How did they sell ? —There was none sold. 22. How did they compare for burning ? —Very well in comparison to the pitch-made articlej; but, of course, they were not analysed. 23. You have no idea of the comparative cost ?—Well, if anything, it would be a little cheaper than the pitch. 24. What proportions did you use ?—8 per cent, of tar. 25. And what of starch ?—I really forget, but Mr. Milne will be able to tell you. 26. You said that you used State coal: have you used any other local coals ? —We have never used any other than State coal. One day we got a truck of Stockton coal by accident; it made up very well, but not so good as State —it was inclined to break.

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27. What was the difference in the two classes of coal ? —The Stockton appeared to be a softer coal. 28. Mr. Cochrane.] Do you know of any other way of utilizing the small coal I —None, with the exception of as a coke. 29. Have you ever heard of small coal being forced into boiler fires by a strong draft ?—No. 30. Mr. Reed.] Have you any knowledge of the analyses of these coals and briquettes as made by the Dominion Analyst ? —No. 31. Have you had any experience of briquette-manufacture elsewhere ?—No. 32. How long have you been engaged upon these briquette-works ? —About three years. 33. You spoke of this article (the briquette) as a splendid household fuel: if that is so, why are the sales to private consumers so small I —l understand that the business with briquettes and eggettes is never pushed. 34. But there has been a falling-ofi in the sales from the depots during the last year, as compared with that of the previous year : does that prove that it is a splendid household fuel ?—lt is not to say that it is not. 35. Is there much demand ?■ —I believe there is. From what I have learned from men on the boats, they are crying out for it in Christchurch and Wellington. 36. How is it that you have not worked more time then, and produced more briquettes ?—I believe the fault has been in not getting the pitch. 37. Are you aware that there has been an annual loss upon the briquette-manufacture ? —I believe there has been a loss. There is a loss, 1 think, in the way they import the pitch. 38. Do you think the present method of manufacture is efficient and economical ? —There is only one way you could economize, and that would enable you to dispense with one man. 39. To what extent would that effect the cost of production ? —los. a day. 40. How many men are working now ? —Eleven. 41. Would that reduction entail more work on the remaining men ? —No. It would be a mechanical alteration. 42. Would it be costly I —No, at the very outside from £10 to £15. 43. Have you recommended that to the Government ? —No. 1 have never had any communication with the officials. 44. Why did you not make a recommendation to that effect '{ Was it not your duty to make that recommendation ? —1 would have done so if I had known the works were going to continue, but I was engaged only with the idea of working out the pitch. 45. So, with the exception of that economy, you think the manufacture of briquettes is being carried on as economically as it can be '{ —Yes. 46. As regards the moisture in the coal, there were complaints that the coal was excessively moist and that the driers were not adequate to reduce that moisture : is that not the case ? —Well, sometimes it gets very wet, and it is then very awkward to work, but they get over that without any additional expense, and it is not often we get the coal very bad in that respect. 47. Have you heard how the Railways find these briquettes —whether they are satisfied with them I—l1 —I have heard drivers and firemen say they prefer the eggettes to screened coal. Two drivers were looking round the works, and in answer to my inquiry they said they did not like the briquettes, but they would take the eggettes every time they could get them. 48. Did you ask them it they preferred the eggettes to the screened coal ? —Yes. 49. Is that the general opinion among the drivers ? —I only know what these two men said —one was from Dunedin and one from Christchurch. 50. How many shifts are working on the briquette-works ? —Only one shift while I have been there. 51. And before you were there ?—I think it was always only one. 52. Do the briquettes break when being shipped ?—No, 1 have seen them drop and not have a corner chipped off even. 53. Do you think the percentage of pitch could be reduced ? —I think it could be reduced if the works were situated away irom Westport, but I do not think it could be reduced otherwise. 54. The Chairman.] You mean, if they were manufactured nearer the actual market ?—Yes. 55. Mr. Reed.] Have you thought of the substitution of a small percentage of resin to reduce the quantity of pitch agglomerant ? —No. I have only tried the tar, but 1 do not think it would be worth while entertaining the idea. 56. You have heard that resin is much used in Europe to reduce the quantity of pitch % —No; it appears to be difficult to get any literature on the subject. 57. Are you able to say whether this is an up-to-date machine or not % —1 believe there are more up-to-date machines than ours. 58. The Would a more up-to-date machine reduce the cost of manufacture ? —1 do not know. 59. Mr. Reed.] Who is the maker of your machine % —Johnston. 60. What is its capacity for eight hours I—The1 —The capacity of the briquette-machines is 45 to 50 tons. 61. How many bnquetting-machines are there I —Three, but only one is being used. 62. So each unit has a capacity of 45 to 50 tons per shift ?—Yes. 63. How many eggetting units have you \ —Only one. We can turn out- 80 tons of eggettes per shift. 64. Are there any complaints made as to the Seddonville coal supplied ?—Sometimes we get it a bit dirty, and then it has to be given a little more pitch.

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65. Have you ever received any trucks of coal which were unsuitable for the work ?—Yes, at times, but on the average it is very good. 66. Do they send you the run-of-mine slack or picked coal ? —I believe they have a bin purposely for it. 67. So they send you approved slack ?—Very likely. 68. Do you know what they do with the other slack at the mine which is unsuitable for briquettemaking ? —I believe they throw it into the creek. 69. So that all slack is not suitable for, briquette-making ?—Well, 1 have not seen the slack they throw away. If it were sent down for trial I could say. I have never been up to the mine myself. 70. Mr. Dowgray.] You are not sure that it is all suitable for briquettes ? —No. 71. It is not because it is unsuitable that they throw it into the creek—it is because they cannot use it ?—Probably. 72. You think the briquette-works would do good work if the industry were encouraged I —Yes. 73. You feel it is not sufficiently encouraged ? —I do. 74. The Chairman.'] You have no demand locally ? —No. 75. Are you the business manager % —No, but they sometimes come to me. Mr. Wilson is the business manager. 76. Do you communicate the orders you receive to him I—Yes.1 —Yes. 77. Do you supply without an order from Mr. Wilson either briquettes or eggettes ?—Yes, they are just small orders. I send a note of it on to Mr. Wilson. 78. Can you say from your own personal observation that a market might be found even in Westport for these briquettes and eggettes as a household fuel ?—Yes, I believe there could be a trade worked up here. 79. Mr. Parry.] In your opinion, if the necessary alterations were made in the production of these briquettes, together with the pushing of the sales and so on, would the cost of the production be very nearly overcome I—No, it would not be overcome, because the greatest item is the landing of the pitch here. 80. The Chairman.] You remarked that the loss was on the method of getting the pitch : can you tell us now in what way the getting of the pitch could be improved ?■ —Well, the last pitch came in two shipments. It went to Wellington and was transhipped from there to Westport. That was an extra cost. 81. That would not account for the difference —it would not make up the loss. According to the balance-sheet there is a big loss per ton. The Wellington transhipment would not run into anything like hundreds of thousands of pounds I —l do not suppose it would. As I said before, I have not been in touch with the financial aspect of the business. I feel sure, though, when you call Mr. Milne he will go thoroughly into the matter. 82. Mr. Dowgray.] You are not aware that tar and sawdust is used extensively in the Old Country I—l1 —I have heard of it. 83. You have never seen it used ?—No. 84. Mr. Reed.] Have you ever heard of tar and sawdust being profitably used at Home?— No. 85. The Chairman.] Is there anything you wish to suggest on your own account ? —No, I do not think so. 86. With regard to what you heard from the engine-drivers, you say they favoured the eggettes, and the reason they gave was that the briquettes were not so handy to handle : was there any complaint about their composition ? —No, and it was not altogether the handling they complained of. They said the briquettes were not a good burning size. 87. Would that apply to household use as well, or only to engines and furnaces I—Yes. Andrew Watson Wilson sworn and examined. (No. 75.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —I am agent for the Seddonville State Coal-mine ; it is also part of my duty to attend to the clerical work connected with the briquette-works. 2. How far do your clerical duties extend ? Do you keep the accounts and attend to the shipping of the briquettes and eggettes. I receive the orders from Wellington as to where they are to be sent and arrange for shipment. 3. Do all payments go through you ?—Yes, for wages. 4. Do you receive money here ? —Yes, for local sales only. Ihave nothing to do with any other sales. 5. You have nothing to do with the orders outside Westport I—No.1 —No. 6. You know the class of coal that is used for briquette-making ?—Yes. 7. What does it cost per ton ?—The briquette-works are charged ss. 6d. per ton for it at the works. That includes 2s. 6d. a ton haulage from Seddonville. There is a special rate on coal for briquettes. 8. Is that the total cost of the coal at the works ? —Yes. 9. Do you know anything about the price of the pitch ? —Yes. 10. What does it cost ? —From £5 ss. to £5 15s. per ton. The last shipments of pitch came to £5 15s. per ton at the works. 11. You have heard the last witness say that a saving might be effected on the shipment of pitch : do you know anything about the method of shipment I—No,1 —No, I am not in a position to say whether any saving could be effected, because it is not arranged here at all. 12. The shipment of pitch which cost £5 55., did that come direct ?—lt was transhipped at Wellington. It came just the same way as the £5 15s. shipment. The difference was in the price at Home. The first shipment which came was shipped in bulk, but that was before I was agent here. I have not the figures for it. 13. You do not know what it cost ? —No.

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14. Now, what do you sell briquettes or eggettes at locally ?•—l7s. per ton. 15. What saje have you for the class of coal which you manufacture into briquettes ?—There is very little sale for it. It is - too fine for ordinary steaming purposes. 16. Have you had any sale at all for it ? —Sometimes coal has come down for the briquette-works, and perhaps they have had a breakdown and I have arranged with the Union Company to take it, but they mix it with some other coal. 17. And what do you get for it I—l1 —I do not know what is the price. That is a sale outside Westport, and is charged from Wellington. 18. Have you no price quoted for the sale of that coal in Westport % —lf it were sold to any one in Westport they would be charged 6s. a ton for it, but the Union Company have an arrangement with the Department for bunker coal. 19. You say there is very little market for it ?■—Yes. 20. Is there any quantity of it shipped i —Well, we have shipped the same class of coal to Dunedin. They use it there for lime-burning. 21. In large quantities ? —No, just an odd 200 tons. 22. Do you know the price ?—No ; that is charged in Wellington. 23. Do you know any other use it can be put to ? —No. 24. According to the balance-sheet a large proportion of briquettes are supplied to the railways and other works : do you know what price they are charged for them 1 —No; they are charged from Wellington. 25. Can you give us the cost price of the briquettes—that is, taking your coal, pitch, and labour ? — That is all worked out in Wellington. I simply send on the wages-sheets and statements. 26. Cannot you ascertain the quantities of coal and pitch used in a given term, and the amount paid in wages for labour ?—Yes, I could prepare it by this afternoon if you wish it. 27. Mr. Reed.] Are you unable to speak of this briquetting business as a commercial enterprise ?— 1 am unable to speak as to that. 28. Can you give us the total quantity of coal manufactured into briquettes during the past year ? — Yes. Andrew Watson Wilson re-examined. 29. The Chairman.'] Have you the tables you promised to prepare for the Commission ? —Yes. [Table produced.] 30. This gives the total amount of coal used, the total quantity of pitch, and the total result 1 — Yes, and the cost at the works. That is up to the 31st March last. 31. You make the cost 17s. lid. per ton ?—Yes. 32. What were you selling it at ? —l7s. per ton here. 33. Have you any idea of the quantity you sold at Westport ?—Yes. [Table produced.] 34. You say the bulk of your output went to the other centres ? —Yes. 35. To this cost you would have to add freight ? —Yes, and Head Office charges, the charges on the briquette plant, and profit and loss statement. 36. So that the manufactured cost here was practically equal to the market-value ? —Yes, in Westport. 37. It is lid. in excess of the market-value, not counting the intermediate charges ? —Yes, that is so. 38. You have no practical experience of the works ? —No. 39. Do you know anything about any other use which could be made of the slack ? —No, unless for steam purposes. 40. Have you had any local shipments of any extent ? —The Union Company is the biggest consumer of steam coal. 41. Can you give us the quantities delivered to the Union Company ? —No, sometimes it is diverted to the Union Company. Any information I might give might be misleading. 42. At any rate, the net result of the working is a loss ?—Yes. 43. And the shipping of the briquettes and the putting of it on the market resulted in a bigger loss I—Yes,1 —Yes, according to the profit and loss statement. [Exhibit 21 put in : (1) Local sales of briquettes and eggettes at Westport, Ist April, 1910, to 30th September, 1911 ; (2) coal, pitch, and stores used in manufacture of briquettes and eggettes.] James Gumming sworn and examined. (No. 76.) 1. The Chairman.] You are the president of the Seddonville Coal-miners' Union ?—Yes. 2. What is it you wish to bring before the Commission ? —Well, this briquette plant is worked in connection with the Seddonville State Coal-mine, and according to reports there is likelihood of that institution being closed down. We wish to get the Government to keep it going, because its shuttingup will mean a considerable loss to the men and to the State. When the briquetting plant is going full time they utilize about 300 tons of slack coal a week, and if the works are closed down, of course, that 300 tons has to be pitched into the creek, which would be a certain amount of loss. 3. Are you speaking with any definite knowledge of the quantity ?—I only know what I have been told at the manager's office at the mine. Ido not wish my figures to be taken as accurate. 4. Prior to the commencement of this briquette-works what was done with the slack ? —lt was sold. 5. To whom, do you know I —l do not know exactly where it was sold, but it was not emptied into the creek until the screening of the coal was started. 6. How long has the briquette plant been working ?—About four years. 7. How long have you been in the district ? —About eight years.

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8. It lias been said that the briquette plant has been working four years, so that between four years and eight years ago this slack was sold and not thrown into the creek ? —Yes. That may have been for a short period, but it was after the screening commenced. 9. It was sold as part of the general output, not separately I—There1 —There was coal screened. 10. What proportion of the slack has been thrown into the creek since the briquette-works have been going I —Between 5,000 and 6,000 tons are lying there now. Before that a good deal was utilized at the time of the Newcastle strike. We think the Government might be induced to start other works for the utilization of this small coal that is lying out at Seddonville—say, by opening chemical works. The idea is that pitch and tar might be manufactured by a process and then utilized in the manufacture of briquettes. 11. Have you any idea as to what it would cost ? —No. I wish to make the suggestion that the Government be recommended to go into it and find out what the cost would be. lam not prepared to go into it myself. 12. Mr. Dowgray.] What loss to the Government does the utilization of this slack for briquettes represent, in view of the fact that if it were not so used it would be thrown into the creek I—There1 —There is the 2s. 6d. a ton paid to the Railway Department for haulage, though, of course, that is not a loss to the Government. The suggestion is for the Government to start an industry to utilize the by-products of this coal in the manufacture of pitch and tar, to be utilized in their own works for the manufacture of briquettes. 13. But you have no data or scheme to submit to us ?—No, just the suggestion —for chemicalworks, coke-ovens, and so on. 14. Mr. Reed.] Are you aware that for the two years ended the 31st March, 1911, the briquetteworks lost £5,158, according to the balance-sheet ?—I do not know that for a fact, but the Minister himself told me that the briquette plant was losing £100 a month. 15. Would you be surprised to hear that the balance-sheet certified by the Minister shows the loss for the year on the State mine briquette-works to be £2,673 13s. 6d. ?—Yes ; but the briquette plant was standing idle a considerable time, and that might have accounted for it. 16. Are you aware that the output for the last year was more than double that for the previous year ? —I do not know. 17. You stated that the briquette-works used 300 tons a week : would you be surprised to know that during 1911 the works consumed only 170 tons a week, and in 1910 only 83 tons a week I—Then1 —Then it was not working full time. I meant, when they were working full time. 18. But if the plant was going where would you get the market for the briquettes ?—Well, they have never been properly put on the market. You can take up the paper any day and find that out. 19. Would you be prepared to approve of the country losing 6s. 3d. a ton on every ton of briquettes sold ?—No. 20. Are you aware that the present Seddonville Colliery is rapidly approa.ching exhaustion ?—To a certain extent I am. 21. Is not the soft coal used for briquetting obtained by the hewers when they are getting round coal ? The hard coal occurs fragmentary. Is it not necessary for the men to win the soft coal too ?—Yes. 22. Can the miner avoid getting soft coal when he is winning hard coal ?—No. 23. So that the coal which is sent to the briquette-works is unavoidably obtained —it is not specially obtained for the briquette-works ?—No. 24. The Chairman.] It is not a class of coal you mine for specially ?—No. 25. Mr. Reed.] So that when the coal is on our hands we must do something with it, and it is better to turn it into a briquette than throw it into a creek ? —Yes. 26. But with the high price of pitch, which means that there is 9s. 9d. worth of pitch in each ton of briquettes, the manufacture of briquettes is prohibitive, is it not ?—Yes ; but our idea is for the Government to produce the pitch. 27. Is not the pitch manufactured in Europe the residuum after the distillation of mineial-oil ? —I have been told that it comes right out of the coal. 28. Are not the other by-products of the coal marketable as well ?—Yes. 29. So you recommend the Government to manufacture its own pitch ?—Yes. 30. Do you know what it would cost ?—No. 31. If it could be successfully carried out, is it not reasonable to suppose that other companies would have started manufacturing briquettes in Australasia ? —There are companies manufacturing briquettes. 32. At a profit ?—Well, they have been carrying on for some time. 33. Where I —At the Great Morwell Mine, South Gippsland, Victoria. 34. What bond do they use ?—1 could not say. It is a German process that is used. They use the Victorian brown coal. 35. Is it working now ?- I think so. 36. The Chairman.] How long is it since you have known of the works being in operation there ? —Fifteen years. 37. How long had they then been going ?—Not very long. 38. Mr. Reed.] If that plant had been a success, do you not think that the New South Wales collieries, for instance, would have installed briquette plants ? —Well, they might have had plenty of output, and they may not have been troubled with so much small coal as we are. 39. Mr. Dowgray.] You stated, in reply to Mr. Reed, that the slack coal used for manufacturing briquettes could hardly be avoided : is the miner paid for that coal ? —Yes, 2s. 4d. a ton. 40. And the haulage rate, 2s. 6d. a ton, that would be a direct loss to the Government if the slack coal were thrown into the creek ? —Yes, it goes to the Railway Department.

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Thomas Douglas Dutch Milne sworn and examined. (No. 77.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are yon?—A marine and mechanical engineer. 2. You were at one time manager of the State briquette-works here ?—Yes. 3. How long ago ? —I was dismissed when the works were closed down on the 4th February of this year. I had been with them for four years and a half previous to that. 4. Can you give us any information as to the manufacture of briquettes—for instance, the class of coal used ? —lt is bituminous slack coal. 5. Has that slack any market-value apart from being used in that way —can it be used for anything else ? —Well, as a rule, it is washed away. 6. Could it be used ? —Yes, for coking. 7. What market would there be ?—The market is small. 8. Do you think it could be profitably coked ? —I do not know that it would be a splendid coking coal, but it could be coked. 9. Can you give us any information as to the profitable use of it for coking ? —No, I have never gone into that subject. 10. Is there any other market for it other than for coking ?—Not to my knowledge. 11. Well, have you any idea of the price it brought during the time you were at the briquetteworks ? —Yes, but I was not supposed to know. 12. What proportion of pitch did you use in the manufacture of your briquettes I —From 7J to 9 per cent. 13. Do you know of any other binder which could be used for the same purpose ? —Yes, there are a good many binders—inorganic binders, such as magnesia,, silicate of soda, lime, fireclay, starch, and many others, also the residue of oil. 14. Do you know of any that would be available for use here that could be got reasonably, and that could be depended upon to turn out a marketable article % —Well, with those inorganic binders I think it is impossible to turn out marketable and commercial briquettes, because in the first place the weather afiedts them and tends to disintegrate them, as they have not the weather-resisting power of pitch-and-oil binders. As far as they are concerned Ido not think New Zealand would be a suitable country to use that process in ; but as far as New Zealand is concerned there is a beautiful opening in the near future for briquetting with a residuum of oil, once our oilfields are satisfactorily opened up, because in California it has been proved that you can briquette with about 4 per cent, of that oil and get a good satisfactory briquette. It goes about 2s. or 2s. 6d. a ton for the binder. But that is only satisfactory where you have an oilfield convenient. 15. Would the New Zealand oilfields produce suitable oil ? —Well, it will have to be an oil with an asphalt basis, so as to produce a suita.ble proportion of pitch in the residuum of the oil. Of course, that remains to be proved. Ido not know myself the character of the oil. 16. Assuming that the oil were suitable, do you think the briquette-making might be made payable under those circumstances ?—Yes, I am quite certain of it—at that cost for the binder. 17. What proportion of residuum would you require \ —About 4 per cent. I think in California it costs something like 11 dollars a ton, which makes it about 2s. or 2s. 6d. a ton for binder. 18. At what price do you think briquettes could be sold \ —They could be sold at as good a price as the best of the screened coal, because it would have heating value added to it. 19. Could it be sold at the same price as good coal from the same pit ? —Yes, they find they can sell it as readily as that in America. 20. Have you any suggestions or recommendations to make as to the cost of manufacture, apart from the material, which would affect the sale ? Is there any saving which could be effected on the present process % —Yes, a good deal. .21. In what way? —Well, I had that question put to me from headquarters by Mr. Blow, and i n reply I wrote a report giving my views on the matter, and if you have no objection I will read a cop v , of that report. There is nothing private in it. It is as follows : — " Sic,— " Westport, 6th November, 1909. " I have the honour to report to you re economies which might be effected in the manufacture of briquettes and eggettes. " Briquetting, like all other commercial enterprises, demands that cost of material, production, and deterioration on the one, hand must be more than counterbalanced by profit derived in marketing the product on the other hand. " Firstly I shall deal with cost of material, principally coal and pitch. Coal, as supplied to us at the works, it is unnecessary to discuss, since if reduced below present cost it would mean that the increased profit at the works would effect a corresponding decrease of profit at the mine, and while working in conjunction it is immaterial to the Department where the profit shows. Regarding pitch, the position is different. outside our own Department, and every penny saved means profit. For example, I may state that if pitch is supplied to us at £3 instead of £5 per ton our saving per ton of fuel, working with 8 per cent, of pitch, would be the difference between Bs. and 4'Bs., which is 3 - 2s. per ton. I have before me quotations for pitch at different shipping centres at Home on the sth July, 1909 : Liverpool, £1 6s. 6d. per ton f.o.b. ; Glasgow, £1 7s. 6d. per ton f.o.b. ; London, £1 10s. per ton f.o.b. I have also made inquiries as to the probable cost of freight by sailing-ship to Westport, and I am advised that the freight could be arranged at about £1 per ton, and if a cargo could be arranged for the same ship from Westport to some other port freight might be got at. 15s. per ton. I contend that herein lies the'secret of briquetting profitably inJNew Zealand, since a saving of 3s. 2d. per ton would be effected by this'method of shipping. The pitch quotations are for bulk ; barrels might be Bs. more. " Secondly I shall deal with labour costs in production. In this part of the manufacture Ido not think I can reduce expenses in working under present conditions. I have applied all the labour-saving

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devices which are advantageous under the present conditions. However, existing conditions could be very much improved so far as economy of production is concerned. Up till the present we have seldom worked more than one machine in a four-machine plant; accordingly that machine is working to pay for the three idle ones, and striving to show a profit on the whole. We have three briquette-machines and one eggette-machine. " Eggett ; ng : This, to my mind, judging from practical experience and demonstration, is the profitable process ;it also produces the article most in demand. Our eggette-machine has an output of 75 to 80 tons per day under favourable conditions, on a wages-bill of £5 10s. per day. That works out at Is. 4|*d. and Is. 6d. per ton of fuel produced. " Briquetting : One machine has an output of at best 40 tons per day, on a wages-bill of £6 per day, or 3s. per ton. Besides costing more for labour, the Union Steam Ship Company charge Is. per ton more freight on briquettes than they do on eggettes. It is therefore clear that, though we may make a small profit while making eggettes, it is speedily swallowed up when we are put on making briquettes again to meet the demand at the depots. The difference in cost is Is. 6d. more for manufacture and Is. more for shipping : total, 2s. 6d. " To cut the briquette-machines out altogether, as I have previously respectfully suggested, would effect a material saving. Another factor which would very much reduce the cost of production would be the installing of another eggette-machine alongside of the existing one, in place of the briquette-machine at present there. This would mean doubling the output for a cost of £1 10s. more for labour. With 160-ton output we would have £7 wages-bill, or 10§d. per ton. " From another standpoint the eggette-machine is the best: breakages are much more frequent with briquette-machines. Such has been our experience, but our machines arc weak in construction. Every breakdown means loss of time and labour, also cost of repair. " I understand that Mr. Eeed, Inspecting Engineer, recommended that steel-mould rollers be supplied instead of the existing cast-iron ones now used. This I have suggested continually, and I feel convinced that it would reduce the expense of tear-and-wear. At present, when working, we wear out one pair of these rolls in less than six months. If made of steel I believe they would last for two years at least. " I have often calculated out as to whether any advantage would be gained if we were to work three shifts instead of one. lam of opinion that it would not be much of a saving. We could get more out of the plant and probably wear it out in one-third of the time, and therefore be ready for newer and better machines as they came on the market, and I feel sure they will come in the near future. Otherwise I do not see that much saving could be effected. " Thirdly, to run these works with any hope of success they must be kept going continually. In the past they have been run most intermittently. Ido not refer to a stoppage like the present —that is preferable to running two or three days per week, as we have often done in the past for months. The want of trucks, shipping deranged, and other causes necessitated stoppage. I assert that the more continuously these works are kept going so much better the chance of success. " Lastly, I am strongly of opinion, after studying conditions obtaining here—shipping in particular— that Wellington is the best site for briquette-works. Seeing that our principal consumers are the Railway Department, we could then load into their trucks, thereby saving two handlings of the fuel and a proportionate percentage of breakage. I doubt not that if such a step were taken eggettes would become a favourite household fuel as well. " I have &c, " T. D. Milne, " Engineer in Charge, Briquette-works. " H. J. H. Blow, Esq., Under-Secretary, Mines Department, Wellington." 22. Do you consider it would be cheaper to ship the slack to Wellington and manufacture the briquettes there ? —Yes, I believe so. At the same time I think the Mines Department might have considered the advisability of shipping the run-of-the-mine coal and screening it in Wellington. You would also save a percentage of your lumpy coal that way. 23. From your experience at the briquette-works they were run at a loss % —I understand so from the annual balance-sheet, but otherwise I knew nothing of the finances. 24. Well, you cannot give us any idea of the cost of production at the works ?—No ; the Department has that information. 25. In regard to the pitch, how do you account for the difference in the quoted price and the freight given you, and the actual cost price here ? It has been given in evidence that it cost from £5 ss. to £5 15s. a ton landed here, but from your inquiries you found it was quoted much lower, and the freight quoted to you would not bring it up to like the actual landed cost ? —Well, my authority as to the quotation for freight is the Vice-Consul for Norway here. He told me that freightprice of £1 a ton. Of course, that would be by sailing-vessel. 26. You cannot suggest any material saving in the way of labour with the present machinery ? — The only saving I know of I have suggested in that report. Of course, you could duplicate the plant, and only raise your wages-bill from £5 10s. to £7. 27. But to make that pay you would require an increased market ? —Yes. 28. While you were manager did you have any local demand to supply % —Only a very small one. 29. Did the orders go from you to the office, or did you. deal with them yourself? —Mr. Wilson dealt with that part of the business. Of course, we filled the bags or whatever came along. The people sent their own carters. 30. Can'you give us any idea|of the satisfaction givenjto thejusers of the briquettes or eggettes ? —Yes, a good r many T people w were veryjffond of them. 31. Once they started to use them they continued to do so ?—Yes ; I know of people who have used them for the past four years, and will use nothing else.

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32. Mr. Reed.] If the briquettes are so popular, how is it that the sales are so small I—l did not say they were popular. I said very few people have used them regularly. 33. Are you aware that during the year ended the 31st March, 1911, there was a considerable decline in the sales to private customers at the depots ?—No, I have had no idea of that; but you must understand that, as you cannot make good sausages out of bad meat, you cannot make good briquettes from bad coal. 34. "Would you not call it a good briquetting-coal ? —Not without being washed. 35. Would washing not add to the cost ?—Yes, perhaps 6d. or Is. a ton. 36. As regards the number of men employed at the works during your time and at present, do you think that number could be reduced ?— No, I do not think so, or I would have effected a reduction myself. 37. Do you think, by an expenditure of £10 or £15 on a mechanical alteration, one man could be dispensed with without throwing extra work on the other workmen ? —There is one place where an alteration could be effected perhaps, and that is in the distribution of the briquettes in the bin. 38. Would that save one man ? —Yes. It would mean a very small saving in the cost. If you take the output at 75 to 80 tons, and the wages of the man at 10s. a day, that , would? only mean a saving of 2d. a ton, which would not go far to make up the present deficiency. 39. Now, as to the residuum of the oil as a binder, I suppose you are aware that our oilfields have not been discovered yet ?—Well, they are looking fairly well at Kotuku. 40. But have they struck oil I—There1 —There has been oil flowing down there for years. 41. But only surface indications ?—lt has not gushed "out of the bore, but it has been coming out of it for some time. 42. What is the residuum ? —Mostly asphalt left in the oil. 43. Or otherwise pitch. You stated that in America they use 4 per cent, of residuum?— Yes. Of course, it is a different quality of pitch. At the St. Louis Exposition they could not make good briquettes without 7 or 8 per cent, of coal-tar pitch. 44. In the Taranaki petroleum the residuum was only 3 per cent. : what sort off oilfield would be necessary to obtain enough pitch for your purpose at that proportion ?—But you never know the extent of it. A good many geological gentlemen have told me that from examinations made New Zealand ought to be one of the best oil-producing countries in the world. 45. Are you aware that there is very little residuum in our petroleum ?—I do not know. 46. The Chairman.] Can you say what would give you something to work on ?—Well, it would depend upon the output. 47. Even at 3 per cent. ?—Yes, if the output were sufficient. 48. You quoted in your report to Mr. Blow that those figures were based on the maximum output ? —Yes. Of course, there were weeks when we worked four or five days. We have had an average output of 76 tons per day. We had to stop for shipping delays, and so on. 49. You quoted pitch at Bs. : for the last year it was 9s. ?—I do not think briquetting will be carried on economically until we can get pitch at from £3 to £3 10s. a ton. 50. Is it not a fact that you require the best-quality pitch ?• —Well, the best test of pitch is the mouth test. 51. Do you require a high-class pitch, a medium pitch, or a bad pitch?— You do not want too high-class a pitch. You want a pitch with the anthracene oils left in. 52. You want the naphtha taken out % —Yes, a pitch which softensjj at less than about 98° or 100° Fahr. 53. How do you know that the pitch for which you were quoted a price would be up to the standard required ?—I know that all the pitch we have had, even up to the last lot, was not a high-class pitch. 54. How do you know that this pitch you quoted is a good pitch ?—I do not know. 55. Are you aware that the Government in buying pitch try to get the high-class pitch ?—I have no idea about that. 56. Have you sometimes complained of the pitch supplied ? —Yes ; the best pitch we got was the bulk pitch we received in the first instance. 57. Do you think you will get good briquettes with 4-per-cent.-residuum pitch ?—Well, they found that at the St. Louis Exposition. 58. Do you think you will get a pitch that will go always as far as the present pitch ? —Yes, it is quite possible. 59. There is a great difference between 4 per cent, and 9| per cent. ?—I said 1\ per cent, to 9 per cent. We sometimes found it was necessary to use a little more pitch because of the extreme wetness of the coal. I had it tested here, and found that it contained 17-6 per cent, of moisture. 60. You think our coa 1 is on the wet side ? —Not the hydroscopic moisture. It is about 3-7 per cent., I think, but that was added moisture. 61. Have you not complained about the excessive water in the coal ? —Yes, and I have recommended an additional drier. 62. Do you still recommend an additional drier ?—Yes, that I advised, as in the past. 63. Have you ever studied Dr. Maclaurin's analyses of the coal and briquettes ? —No. . 64. Would you be surprised to know that the briquette has not the evaporative power of the coal ? —Yes, I can quite understand that. It is accounted for by the amount of dirt in it. If the slack was better the analysis would be better. 65. Did you wash it ?—No.

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66. Mr. Reed.] What is your opinion of the plant: is it up to date ?—Well, I have never had experience of other plants, but from what I have read I should say it is not up to date. It was supplied by tender, and I think many of the parts ought to have been separate and distinct. 67. Do you think improvements could be made in the existing plant or in the system of manufacturing briquettes, and, generally, do you think the plant has been run satisfactorily I—Yes,1 —Yes, everything has run as well as it could have done. The stoppages through shipping derangements have all tended against the plant. 68. If you could get a plant to work with greater pressure to consolidate this coal, and thereby reduce the percentage of pitch, do you think the product would have as great an evaporative power with,less pitch, and be as good a fuel ? —No, not quite. You increase the inflammable power of the product with the pitch. But, still, the difference in pitch would not be much ; it would only be the difference between the heating property of pitch and that of coal. 69. The Chairman.] If you washed the coal ?—The heating property of the briquette would be much higher than it has been in the past. 70. Mr. Reed.] As regards sales, was there not a large quantity of our slack sold during the Newcastle strike ? —Yes, for bunker purposes. 71. Is there not some of it sold now for bunker purposes I—l1 —I do not know ;it was not in my line to know that. 72. Mr. Dowgray.] How do you account for the difference in the figures quoted for the pitch, the £5 15s. per ton and your figures ? —Of course, that was the quotation I saw in the financial magazine published at Home. Ido not know as to the quality of the pitch, and it was in bulk. It would cost about 10s. more to barrel it. But, still, I cannot account for that vast difference. 73. Do you not think there could be greater economy in the freight ?—I do not know. It would have cost more by steamer than by sailing-vessel. 74. So that, if the pitch can be bought at the price quoted by you and your freight is reliable, then it could be run as a, financial success ?—Yes, if the pitch could be landed here at £3 ss. a ton. 75. The Chairman.] Would it require to be as low as £3 ss. ? —No, I think it would pay at £3 10s. 76. That is the most you could afford to pay ? —Yes, I think so. 77. Do you know what that slack would be sold at ? —I remember the Minister saying in the House that he sold any amount of bunker coal at 4s. 6d. a ton. 78. Mr. Reed.] That was Greymouth slack ?—Westport, I think ; but I do not know —it might have been Greymouth. But Ido not think much could have been made out of it. There is another matter to be considered : the higher the quality of your coal the higher the price you will get for your briquette. We do not get as much for Seddonville coal as they do for Stockton or Granity coal. 79. As to sending pitch in barrels, we get it in barrels now, do we not ? —Yes. 80. Have you any knowledge of what happened when they sent it out in bulk ?—I did not advocate that. 81. Did they have to blast it out of the ship's hold ?—Yes. > 82. What did that cost ? —About 2s. a ton. And you would never get another ship to bring it out that way if they knew what happened the last time. The captain nearly lost his ship in the tropics through it. 83. So that that shipping method is not practicable ?—1 did not suggest that it should be brought out in bulk. You could bring it in barrels in a sailing-vessel. 84. Mr. Dowgray.] You said barrel it \ —Yes. 85. Mr. Reed.] What merchandise is carried to Westport at that price ?—I do not know. They would charge a heavy freight for pitch on a general cargo or passenger steamer, I suppose, because it would be treated as combustible. lam positive that a sailing-vessel would bring it out at £1 a ton. Pitch in barrels is a splendid cargo. 86. But that would be more expensive I —lt would be £1 17s. 6d. per ton, and £1 for freight— £2 17s. 6d. at Westport Wharf. 87. Mr. Parry.] You said that if the industry were kept going continually a saving would be effected ?— Yes. 88. But a bigger demand would be required ? —Yes. 89. During your term in the briquette-works, was there anybody at all who pushed the sale of briquettes I—l1 —I do not know. The sales were managed from Wellington. 90. And if there had been somebody to do that do you think more would have been sold ? —Well. 1 think the eggettes are superior to the screened coal from Seddonville. 91. And you stated that you did not think that briquetting would be a success until the pitc is procured at £3 a ton ?—From £3 to £3 10s., I said. 92. What do you base that on—on the prices given for the private company's coal % —On the price at which the coal is supplied from Seddonville, and the price they are supposed to receive for the produced article. That is evidence lam not supposed to divulge. 93. Do you think the loss is greater because it is a State-owned proposition than it would be if it were privately owned I—l was never a believer in State control myself. 94. Mr. Dowgray.] You said that the slack at the State mine was not as good as the slack at Denniston and Millerton ?—I do not think so. 95. Have you used any of the slack from those mines ?—No ; but it is a better coal. 96. There is a great deal in the name ?■—But they get a better price for their coal than is obtained for the Seddonville coal, and marketing is the best test. 97. Can you give us any idea as to the profitable use for the slack ?—Only for coking and briquetting.

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Nelson Courthouse. —2nd November, 1911. Arthur D'Oyley Bayfeild sworn and examined. (No. 78.) 1. The Chairman.'] Your name is ?—Arthur D'Oyley Bayfeild. 2. What are you ? —An agent, of Westport. 3. I understand you wish to lay some matters before the Commission regarding briquettes ? — Yes. I should like to explain to the Commission, in the first place, that I was responsible for a resolution being passed by the Westport Chamber of Commerce, asking that your powers as a Commission should be extended to enable you to inquire into the question of the utilization of the softcoals of the Westport district and the lignite coals of Charleston in connection with the briquetting business. My object in moving that resolution was to get the Commissioners to inquire and gather information as to the possibilities of more vigorous action being taken in prosecuting the briquetting and eggetting business, and particularly with a view of pushing the soft coals of the Mokihinui district, in which area there is a very large quantity of soft coal lying dormant to a great extent, and which I cannot help thinking might be utilized. But the matter would have to be approached from a strictly commercial point of view, and the points which I think require inquiry I have made a note of. If I had been in Westport when the Commission was sitting there I would have been glad to have given evidence on this matter. Firstly, there is the question of haulage, which is an important element. It has been established by the parliamentary reports that the briquetting business at Westport has been unsuccessful, and there are points which I shall endeavour to place before the Commissioners to show the cause of that failure —but, of course, not in any hostile spirit —and that in two or three points, at any rate, there are possibilities of improvement. I wish, first, to place the question of haulage before you, and also to ask whether it would not be a good thing for the Government to offer an inducement by way of a bonus for a successful method of dealing with these coals, and bringing them to a commercial success, by (a) the improvement of the mode of importing pitch, which is a very great item ; (b) obtaining a more up-to-date plant ; and (c) considering whether it would not be more economical to make the briquettes, say, in Wellington—that is, the actual manufacture of them. Going back to the question of haulage, the ordinary rate of haulage on coal from Seddonville to Westport is 3s. 2d. per ton, but I think there is a reduction of Bd. per ton for soft coal, which is railed to Westport for 2s. 6d. per ton. Well, the third point I want to submit is that that 2s. 6d. even is an exorbitant charge for haulage over a distance of thirty-two miles, and I believe that if the Harbour Board could be induced to make a substantial reduction it would pay them in the long-run, because they would haul a greater quantity, and it would be the means of assisting in the utilization of these coals. I say most decidedly that it is an absurdity to charge 2s. 6d. per ton. The rates all along, as a matter of fact, speaking in a general way, are absurd ; and it is a matter for the Government to consider whether they should not pass a regulation reducing these rates, particularly those on inferior coals. Ido not know that I need say much more on that point. Then I come to the question of offering an inducement as a bonus for briquetting coal to a commercial success. The Commissioners may or may not know that some little time ago attempts were made to find a means of dealing with this class of coal, but so far they have not arrived at a point of commercial success ; but, as I had occasion to say before, I submit that the fact of failure so far will not prevent determined men from further endeavouring to overcome the difficulty. In Wellington, I know, the matter is being prosecuted, and I can mention names of gentlemen who are interested in the subject. Mr. Swannell has been ; and within the last two or three months he has improved his ideas by establishing the fact that he can produce eggettes at a less cost than previously, so that he is gradually getting much nearer the mark of success. Then, Mr. Bradley, of Westport, has been on the job. The point I wish to make is this : that it would pay the Government well. If I can get you, gentlemen, to view it in that particular way, and impress upon the Government the advisability of giving an inducement to find a means of dealing with these coals I will have achieved my object. Mr. Swannell and Professor Easterfield, of Wellington, have recently found a means of saving Is. 6d, per ton on the previous cost of making briquettes or eggettes by Mr. Swannell's process. 4. In regard to pitch, do you know of any suggestion you can make in regard to that ?—Yes, most decidedly :itis a most important factor. And here again I ask it to be understood that lam not finding fault in any way ; but, as a business man, after making inquiries and looking into this question, I find that, as a matter of fact, pitch can be imported at a very much lower cost than has been paid for it—in fact, an astonishing reduction in the cost can be effected. 5. Can you give us the details—the mere statement is not enough for us to go on ?—A great saving can be made in the freight by direct importation,to Westport, say, by sailing-vessels, as against the freight by the ocean steamers via Wellington. 6. Where can we get this information in regard to freights % We want some definite data to work on in order to figure out the freight-saving which can be made I—As1 —As a matter of fact, I could supply it to the Mines Department. Ido not know what freight they paid in the first place. I will send a communication to Wellington, and get the freight figures placed before you there. 7. Then, in regard to the up-to-date plant which you said was required ? —I am not an expert upon that point. 8. We have had evidence, and it is admitted that a more up-to-date plant might effect some saving \ —Yes, as a matter of fact the present plant is obsolete. Then, another point I wish to make is that it has been claimed and proved that the manufacture of briquettes can be undertaken moro economically in Wellington than in Westport. The Westport district would benefit by having their coal used in the business, and the Harbour Board would benefit by the haulage. 9. What do you suggest would be the saving by manufacturing the briquettes in Wellington ? — That I shall leave to others to deal with. Details will be submitted to you in Wellington by men who are in a position to speak on the matter.

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10. Mr. Cochrane.] With regard to your suggestion for reducing the railway rates on inferior coals do you intend that to refer to the Westport district only, or throughout the Dominion ?—I am not parochial, but I cannot answer for the rates elsewhere—only for those in our own district 11. But, you see, if the Westport rates were reduced the other places would make similar applications tor reductions j—There is a very distinct difference. The profits from the working of the Westport line are purely a matter for the Westport Harbour Board-they are apart altogether from the general Dominion rates. 12. You said you were astonished to find what a reduction could be made in the cost of pitch : can you give us any idea of what that difference amounts to per ton on the pitch landed in Westport ?— A difference of at least £1 7s. 6d. per ton. v. ni 3- C ) ai J: man l In connection with the Harbour Board's interest in the haulage-rates could , , w , ? J£ ommerce not induce tte Harbour Board to recommend a reduction in the haulagerate t Would Westport and the Harbour Board co-operate with the Government to reduce the freight I— We would endeavour to induce the Board to do so, but I should like to see the Government bring pressure to bear on them. I would like the Government to recognize the position—they are the dominant power. J 14. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you know whether there is any rebate on the haulage-rates on soft coal in other parts of the country ? —I do not know. 15 How does the haulage-rate on the Westport line compare, for instance, with that from Huntlv to Auckland ?—I think it would bear favourable comparison ; but I have nothing to put before you on the point. or j 16. The Chairman.].Oi course, you know it has been established that up to the present the manufacture of briquettes has been failure ?-Yes, and Ido not think we should be content with that failure.

Wellington (Parliament Buildings).—lsth November, 1911. Louis Henry Eilers sworn and examined. (No. 79.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you '-Accountant for State Coal-mines. I have prepared this statement [produced] showing the cost per ton of the various shipments of pitch imported for the manufacture of briquettes. [Exhibit No. 27 put in.] 2. Can you account for the difference in the purchase prices ?—Some of it was in bulk The bulk pitch is always cheaper than that in casks. 3. But even so far as the pitch imported in casks is concerned there is a large difference between £1 17s. 6d. per ton and £2 12s. per ton. Is this f.o.b. ?—Yes. L Mr. Reed,] This is a statement showing the cost of'pitch imported since the inception of briquettmg at Westport ?—Yes. F 5. It gives the f.o.b. price at port of shipment ?—Yes. 6. What was the cost of the last shipment ?—£2 12s. per ton at Liverpool, I think 7. But we found that the cost at Westport was £5 15s. per ton ?—Yes 8. How do you account for that difference of £3 12s. ?-There is freight—about £3 3s a ton—that would account for a good portion of the difference. ™ . 9; Do J ou mean . to that the cost is £3 3s. per ton from the port of shipment to Westport «— That is what was paid. . 10. Do you know as to the specification for the pitch: was it a special quality which was procured ?—I am not aware of that—l only deal with the accounts. 11. Do you buy the higher-quality pitch, or only medium quality ?-I could not say as to thatthe ordering is done by the Mines Department. v r l2- P" aV j/ 0U foment lowing the analysis of the cost of the manufacture of briquettes ?— Yes [produced]. [Exhibit No. 27a put in.] H ' manufacture^ 8 6nded lMt *~~ l * iS f ° r the Wh ° le period of bri( l- uette--14 In your balance-sheets you make certain provisions which are not shown here ?—This statement shows simply the cost of production. Then there is the cost of trading to be added tradirf' S tte C ° St ° f P roduction ? - £1 7 «- 10-19 d. per ton is the total cost of production and 16. What is the average sale price ?—£l Is. 9-16 d. per ton. 17. So that the loss on briquettes has been what per ton ?—6s. l-3d per ton + r^ 8 J at ° apital d ° y ° U CoUnt f ° r de P reciatiotl ? ~ Tl *at i« shown in the balance-sheet-it stands at xiOjOoy now. 19 V5| TO y ° U If f T d ' ° r \ aVe 7 ° U Written any ° f that Off ? - Xt is bein 8 written off every year. £728 was written off last year—s per cent. y 20 In your cost of £1 7s. 10-19 d. per ton how much have you allowed for depreciation and interest ?—5 per cent, for depreciation, and 3| per cent, for interest. 21. As regards the market, are endeavours made to obtain a market for this patent fuel?—l so interm I rtten a t dVertiSed ?_N °' ** advertised recently, because the works have been going 23. Has the trade for briquettes been pushed ?—I think so~we had a good sale for them , , 2 V;^ e ?*f e T nded 31st Mardt, 1910, I see that out of a total output of 4,160 tons, the depots took only 871 tons ?—I have not the figures with me. p

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25. For the following year, out of a total output of 8,470 tons, I see that the depots only took 1,129 tons : how do you account for the small amount of this[patent fuel taken by the depots ?—Well, I think the people prefer the screened coal. 26. So. that the public do not like this patent fuel as well as the screened coal ?—I would not say that; there are a few people like it. 27. Do you think the demand for this patent [fuel increased in any way ?--It is a question of educating the people to use it. 28. Do you think that could be done % —1 think so. 29. But the balance-sheets for the last two years show a decline in the|demand. For instance, urthe year 1910 the depots took about one-fifth of the total output, whereas in the following year they took only about one-eighth : that shows a decline in the demand ? —I do not think so., because the works were closed up for some time. 30. But lam taking the demand in proportion to ? —I do not think myself that is altogether a good guide. 31. Can you make any suggestion as to briquette-manufacture can be carried on profitably ? —Well, the only thing that can make it profitable is a great reduction in the cost of the bindingmaterial and also of the labour. Those two items would have to be reduced. 32. Has the supply of eggettes at times been irregular ? —Yes, very irregular. The works have been closed up several times. 33. Do you think that by regular supplies and pushing the sales continually the manufacture of briquettes and eggettes could be made a success ?—I would not like to say that under the present condition it could be made a profitable concern. John Spence Nicol sworn and examined. (No. 80.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you ? —An auctioneer, in Wellington. 2. I believe you wish to bring before the Commission some matters relating to briquette-making ? —Yes. In the first place, I am representing Mr. Swannell, who is the patentee of a new process for making a special binder for the binding of slack coal. Mr. Swannell, unfortunately, is absent from New Zealand at the present moment, and I have been asked to come along to give what evidence I can which may be of benefit to the Commission in enabling a recommendation to be made to the Government in connection with this process. I will substantiate any statements I may make with regard to this process from reports on the subject. ■ I have here a sample of briquettes made from Paparoa coal [produced]. Earlier in the day I put a couple on the fire to show you how they burn, but I was unable to bring to your attention that they were burning. I have, however, proof here of the fact that they burn remarkably well. My main point is that the difficulty of producing a binder that will enable the manufacture of briquettes and eggettes to be carried on profitably has been solved by this process. The only briquetting system at present in vogue in New Zealand is a pitch process, and, as per the evidence given before the Commission to-day, the pitch costs about £5 15s. per ton at the works. The pitch as part of the binder, 1 believe, is really the cause of the non-success of the profitable production of briquettes. I understand that the cost of production of these pitch briquettes, including coal and binder, is £1 7s. 10d. per ton —that includes the freight to the place of sale —and the average sale price of the briquettes at present on the market is £1 Is. 9d. per ton, showing a loss of 6s. Id. per ton. So that, looking through these figures, one can only come to the conclusion that the pitch process is not altogether a success ; and I believe that the State is seriously considering the closing-down of this business altogether. As against this we have a process which is new, and is patented and protected here in New Zealand. I will be very pleased indeed if you will allow me to read the report of Professor Easterfield, when he actually made this briquette by this process himself : — " Deab Sik, — " Victoria College, Wellington, 7th July, 1911. " In December last at your request upon Mr. SwamielPs process for briquetting coal, and stated that the processes then practised would cost approximately ss. 6d. per ton for bindingmaterial. Acting upon a suggestion of mine, Mr. Swannell has now modified his process so as to materially reduce the cost of the binder. On the 29th June I supervised the operation of making briquettes in a small hand-press, checking all the weights of the materials employed. The briquettes after three days' keeping were sufficiently firm for commercial purposes, and burnt satisfactorily in an ordinary fireplace. Only 12-5 per cent, of binding-material was used, in the place of 25 per cent, in the older process. The table here given shows the cost of the materials employed in making 100 tons of binder at present wholesale prices : — Pei Present Wholesale Cost per 100 Cent Prices, per Ton. Tons of Binder. £ s. d £ Flour .. .. .. .. .. 7-9 9 0 0 71-00 Tar .. .. .. .. .. 7-9 3 2 0 24-49 Lime .. .. .. .. .. 1-2 210 0 3-00 Water .. .. .. .. .. 83-0 0 0 2 0-07

100-0 . 98-86 " Say, £99 per 100 tons = 19s. 10d. per ton of binder. Since 12-5 per cent. oi binder is employed in actual briquetting, the cost becomes 12"5 per cent, of 19s. 10d. = 2s. 6d. per ton of coal briquetted = 2s. 3d. per ton of briquettes produced. " The cost of the binder needed for producing a ton of briquettes by Mr. Swannell's former process was about ss. 6d. There is thus a saving of at least 3s. per ton of briquettes in the bindingmaterial for the new process. " Yours faithfully, '/ ThomasH. Easterfield, M.A., Ph.D., F.1.C., F.C.S., " Professor of Chemistry in the Victoria College. " G. T. Hull, Esq., Paparoa Coal Company (Limited), Wellington."

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I have also some other reports which I would like to place before you for your information. One I have from Mr. J. P. Maxwell, managing director of the Paparoa Coal Company, reads as follows : " Dear Sir, — " The Paparoa Coal Company (Limited), Head Office, Wellington, 3rd May, 1911. " Re your patent briquetting process : I have pleasure in complying with the request contained in your letter of the 25th April, 1911. I have seen briquettes manufactured from Paparoa coal by your process, the briquetting-mixture consisting of ordinary gas-tar, flour, lime, and water in certain proportions. The briquettes were pressed in an ordinary hand-press. I have retained soma of the finished briquettes for testing, and am of the opinion that they would be very suitable for household and other purposes. I went very closely into the cost of manufacturing, and formed the opinion that with a plant situated in a main centre like Wellington, and even paying present full market prices for small coals, the manufacture of briquettes by your process would prove a commercial success, and produce a handsome profit at a moderate retail price. Separate plants might be installed in the principal cities in New Zealand. " I am, &c, "J. P. Maxwell, M.lnst.C.E. " C. T. Swaunell, Esq., o/o. Messrs. G. T. Hill and Co., Johnston Street, Wellington." I have another report here, signed by Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald, which is as follows : — " Dear Sir, — " Wellington, 11th May, 1911. " I have examined your statement of costs of briquette-manufacture as submitted to Mr. Maxwell on the 4th April last, and I have seen your pencil-drawings of the factory-arrangement and Professor Easterfield's estimate of production-charge, and upon these particulars 1 beg to observe that in your statement the provision for labour appears to be excessive. Ibelisve that the whole factory could be managed by two men and one lad if their duties could be arranged as follows : The supervisor and engineer could be one, and the assistant and engineman could be one, and either could at times do any other work required. The lad could tally in supplies if necessary, and deliver goods. The accounting could be done outside with advantage. Upon your design for factory-arrangement I suggest that the flour should be mechanically handled like the coal, in order to cut down to the lowest limit the necessity for manual work, and possible batch-mixing could be arranged so that no supervision would be required for that part of the process, the intent being that the materials should enter at one end of the factory, and the briquettes come out at the other without any intermediate manual interference. Your price for tar is high, being the local charge. If tar c;,n be imported in bulk it ought to be less than half the price now quoted. If your estimate of components is correct (I am unable at present to verify this) the charge of 3s. per ton for binder is not too high, and in view of what I have stated above 1 believe that it can be reduced. lam not in a position at present to check your estimate of working-costs. " Yours truly, " Gerald Fitzgerald, M.lnst.C.E. " Mr. C. T. Swannell, 30 Cuba Street, Wellington." As to the working-cost of this business, the only and really the best information we could get waS , obtainable from a firm like Messis. J. J. Niven and Co., who are large manufacturers, so it is on their figures that lam actually working as to the labour-cost. They write on the subject as follows :— " Dear Sir, — " Wellington Branch, Hunter Street, 19th July, 1911. " With reference to your proposal to erect a briquetting plant, and the probable cost of equipment and operating same : After studying your preliminary plans and the accompanying schedule of estimated cost, I feel that you would do well to increase the cost of plant by at least 10 per cent. The general lay-out of the works is in the direction of manufacturing with a minimum amount of labour. No allowance has been made for carrying plant to deliver the product to merchants, therefore we presume your selling price to be ex storage-hopper. " With reference to the labour question, my estimate is, for an eight-hours day —engine-manager, £5 per week ; clerk, £3 per week ; fireman-greaser, £2 14s. per week ; process labour, £2 14s. per week ; boy, say, £1 per week : total, £14 Bs. per week. An output of the full capacity of the plant would mean that all hands would be full} , occupied ; therefore, the question of receiving coal must be considered as an extra, and should be taken in with cost of coal delivered at the works. £14 Bs. for forty-eight hours = 7s. 2d. per ton, plus 33£ per cent, for practical contingencies ; but if the works run sixteen hours per day the cost would be : day shift, £14 Bs. ; night shift —engineer, £3 10s. per week ; process labour, £2 14s. per week ; boy, £1 per week : total, £21 12s. per week. £21 12s. per week = £3 12s. per day = 4s. 6d. per hour and ss. 4d. per ton, showing the advantage of working two shifts per day, plus 33| per cent. " It must be distinctly understood that the foregoing is on the assumption that the plant could maintain the maximum output without variation, which is practically an impossibility ; therefore, by allowing for stoppages, inability to dispose of output at rate of manufacture, delays in receiving coal, and general contingencies of difference between theory and practice, and to cover such discrepancies, we consider that not less than per cent, should be added to the calculated cost of production. This might be reduced to 25 per cent, when the works have a continuous output approaching the rated output. " Yours faithfully, " Per pro Jas. J. Niven and Co. (Limited), " C. T. Swannell, Esq., Wellington. " L. Gγ. James. Branch Manager." I do not want to go into this question further, except to mention that for forty-eight hours per week the cost for labour would be about 9d. per ton ; but when the factory was able to do double the output the briquettes could be produced at 7d. per ton for labour. We have also been in communication with Messrs. A. D. Riley and Co., of this city, who represent the people at Home who make the plant, and they say, " Replying to yours of the 22nd, re briquetting plant, we have, in accordance with

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previous inquiries, obtained information from the works ; but for a 6-ton-per-hour plant as requested, this would cost you £1,200 c.i.f. Wellington." They also state that only three men are necessary to work the plant, though J. J. Erven and Co. state that it will take five. Inquiries were also made from the State Coal Department as to the selling-price of eggettes and briquettes, in reply to which the following letter was received from Mr. Gasquoine, the General Manager :— " Dear Sibs, — " Wellington, 23rd June, 1911. " Re briquettes and eggettes : These works have been closed down for some time, and having a few tons of pitch on hand it has been decided to work this up. When the works will reopen lam unable to say, as the railway-sidings were taken up. When we start operations again I shall then quote you f.o.b. Our price here retail is £1 10s. per ton for eggettes, and as briquettes are sold by the hundred we charge 65., which runs about the same rate as eggettes by the ton. " Yours faithfully, " Messrs. G. T. Hill and Co., Wellington. " W. C. Gasquoine, General Manager." No doubt you are aware that there is a great deal of slack coal in New Zealand, not only on the West Coast but also at Kaitangata, and the company there has quoted Is. 6d. per ton on trucks at Stirling for it. At present it is costing them Is. per ton to take their dross coal from their mine-mouth. In connection with the other materials that are wanted for this process, they are all available. The tar can be supplied from Australia. As to flour, the flour-millers would be prepared to mill flour at a much cheaper rate than I have quoted, as long as it was not for consumption, so that the cost per ton for binder would be very much less than I have quoted. We would like to see you report to the Government that it is your opinion that something should be done in regard to this matter. They are assisting other processes at the present time, and this will benefit both the people and the producers at the mine, because if we go on for another fifty years in throwing away this waste coal it means that our round coal is getting less and less every year ; and if briquetting is gone in for the mines will last very much longer than they will under the present state of things. It will also give employment to a number of men. and also a better return to those who have their money invested in the coal-mines of New Zealand. 3. At what do you consider you can put these briquettes on to the market ? —Not being the proprietors of a coal-mine, we cannot say. 4...What could you sell them at ? —Well, the difference c.i.f. Wellington between the cost.of round coal and dross coal is 10s. per ton —that is, at wholesale rates. If round coal is sold wholesale at £1 2s. per ton you could buy dross coal at 125., and in many cases, I think, at 10s. per ton —say, 11s., at any rate. I think the best way to work it is to put the actual cost of the binder and labour on to the cost of the dross. 5. That is 3s. per ton, according to you ?—Yes. Then that would be 14s. ; then add 6d. and another Is. for depreciation and depot-expenses. If you were doing 10 tons an hour, or 80 tons a day for five days in the week, that would mean 400 tons a week. If you allowed Is. a ton for these contingencies you would be allowing a very large amount —£20 a week. And you could sell the briquettes at £1 a ton, and show 4s. 6d. a ton profit on it. 6. Mr. Fletcher.] Would you prefer having the plant in the cities rather than near the mines ? — Well, that is a question which would entirely depend upon circumstances. For instance, if a plant were started in Dunedin, where you could get lignite coal delivered at the works for 6s. a ton, it would be a good thing. It may, however, be stated that the lignite coals are not suitable ; but we could buy West Coast coals and mix them with it. There are several things to be taken into consideration. If, for instance, you put your plant near any particular mine, you would be binding yourself to take the coal from that mine. 7. Can you buy Westport slack here at 11s. a ton ?—Well, I was managing for Puponga coal, and sold it at 10s. 6d. a ton. 8. Can you guarantee that binder ?—Yes, certainly. 9. It requires three days to set ? —Yes, if you give it three days it will be better. .10. Is it sufficiently compressed ? —Yes. I would like to explain that with the hand-machine we have we can only get a small pressure, whereas with the proposed plant I have been speaking about you could get an enormous pressure. As a matter of fact, there is on the .market a Chicago plant. 11. Have you known any difficulty in selling briquettes and eggettes when coal was cheap ?•— Well, my knowledge of the demand for them is very poor —I cannot say. I only know what the Accountant for State Coal-mines has said in evidence here to-day. He says that the demand can be increased. 12. Mr. Reed.] Do you understand briquette-making machines ? —No. 13. Do you think you could demonstrate your process at the present Westport briquetting plant ? —No ; they have a very out-of-date arrangement there. 14. Do you know the type of plant there ?—Mr. Swannell has told me that he would " scrap " the lot of it. 15. But you only know that from hearsay ?—Yes. He says it would take anything from £2,000 to £3,000 to put it in good order. 16. You have read some testimonials from the Paparoa Company ? —Yes. 17. If there is such a great deal in the manufacturing of briquettes by this process, why do not these companies go in for it themselves ? —They have not been asked. 18. Can you tell us of one successful briquetting-machine in Australasia to-day I —No. 19. Are you aware that the Western Australian Government have two of these plants ? —I know that representations have been made to the Australian Governments, and Mr. Swannell is over there at the present time in connection with the matter. They have paid him to go over the other side. 20. You said that it would cost 15s, 6d, a ton to produce the briquettes in Wellington ?—Yes.

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Wellington.—l7th November, 1911. Alfred Luther Beattie sworn and examined. (No. 81.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you ? —Chief Mechanical Engineer, New Zealand Railways. 2. So far as you are concerned, the object of the Commission's examination this morning is to inquire into the profitable utilization of the soft coals of the Westport district. I understand you use in your locomotives briquettes and eggettes manufactured from these soft coals. We will be pleased to hear what has been your experience in the us© of these briquettes and eggettes ? —The Locomotive Department of the Railways has used briquettes and eggettes since 1907 to the amount of some 23,000 tons. Touching the briquettes, these were found unsuitable from a locomotive-fuel point of view. 3. On what account ?—On the ground that there was considerable loss by crumbling on a number of shipments, and therefore an undue percentage of slack coal. Some shipments apparently had been manufactured with an insufficient proportion of binder (pitch). 4. Was that amongst the earlier shipments ? —Yes, some of the earlier shipments crumbled very seriously. The use of briquettes in a locomotive-firebox was unsatisfactory: they tended to burn " dead." 5. There was too much bulk ?—Yes ; and the only way to get along with them was to break them up before putting them into the fire. That again produced a very considerable amount of slack. In addition to that, the tendency of the briquettes, and also of the eggettes, is to form slag or clinker on the fire-grate, and they are also more severe on the firebox, firebars, tubes, and brick arches than the ordinary screened coal. 6. To what do you attribute that ? —Well, I can only attribute it to the chemical action of the pitch. It may make a more cutting flame : I should judge it would. Latterly we have not taken any briquettes, but we have been regularly taking eggettes. 7. Since when have you ceased taking briquettes ? —During the last two or three years we have taken little but eggettes. 8. Have you made any comparison between a ton of coal and a ton of briquettes or eggettes ? — They are from Is. Bd. to 2s. per ton of less value than the screened coal for locomotive fuel. 9. How did the prices compare ? —We were paying for the briquettes and eggettes the same price as for screened Seddonville coal. 10. And at the same price you found them from Is. 6d. to 2s. per ton less value ? —Yes. Another point I might mention is that briquettes and eggettes prepared with pitch or anything of that nature involve a restricted use as fuel. It is quite out of the question to use them for tunnel-work. The acrid fumes from the pitch affect the men to such an extent that it is not practicable to work heavy trains through tunnels with such fuel as compared with screened coal, so that we never supply eggettes or briquettes to the districts where there are tunnels. For that reason we could not use them on the trains running from Lyttelton to Christchurch without risking the asphyxiation of the men, or, at any rate, severe suffering ; similarly, between Upper Hutt and Summit, and between Summit and Cross Creek, to use a fuel prepared with pitch is out of the question. 11. Do you find any advantage in using eggettes as to handling ? —ln point of handling, the eggettes do not suffer nearly so much through shipping as the briquettes, nor in handling after they arrive at our coal-yards ; and in that respect they are in a more convenient form for our use. 12. Otherwise the same disadvantage applies to eggettes as to briquettes ?—The same disadvantage as regards the fumes and use in tunnels, yes. I might also mention that the men who have to load and unload eggettes and briquettes suffer considerably in their eyes through the dust from the pitch, so that we had to provide respirators for such men. 13. Have you had any experience in the manufacture of them ? —None whatever. I have seen them manufactured at Westport, but I have had no other experience. They were not manufactured usually in the north of England, where I was brought up and served my apprenticeship. We had any quantity of coal in the West Riding of Yorkshire. 14. You know nothing about the price of pitch ? —No, I have no information upon that point. 15. Mr. Reed.] Are you aware of briquettes having been used in any other State ? —No. 16. Do you think if they employed another binder, such as lime, tar, and flour, that you would experience the inconvenience that you have now with the pitch ? —I think if you employed a binder which did not cause any objectionable fumes you would very greatly improve them. 17. Would you obtain the same calorific power by the use of lime and flour ?—I am hardly in a position to answer that offhand, because it would recjuire a trial. I should judge that you would lose some calorific power. 18. Do you find a large amount of ash with these briquettes ? —Yes, and also a considerable amount of cfinker, and a high proportion of sulphur. 19. As regards the later consignments of eggettes you have received, were they hard or friable ? —They were harder than the earlier shipments. 20. Do they appear to contain more pitch ? —I should judge by the hardness of them that they contain more. 21. Therefore, from your experience, the only deduction that I can make is that unless a different binder can be obtained —a binder giving off less noxious gases and fumes —the utilization of this patent fuel by locomotives is not possible ?—I should certainly take that view. 22. It is a question of the binder ?—-Yes, very largely. 23. Are you aware why briquettes were not manufactured from the slack in Yorkshire and Durham ? —I am not aware, except that they had such a superfluity of coal. It would hardly pay them. They had a the slack for factory use. They called the smallest size " smudge," and the next size J' slack."

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24. Can you express an opinion on eggettes as a household fuel ?—No ; I have not used them. 25. Would the same ill effects be experienced from their use in a grate as you have experienced with them in a locomotive ?—lf there was any tendency to down-draft and smoking from the chimney into the room, I should say it would be most objectionable ; and in the case of a stove, I should say, they would experience probably what we experience in our tubes —a large deposit of soot. 26. The briquettes which you have used have all been manufactured from a bituminous coal ?— Yes, it has all been obtained from Seddonville. 27. Now, if a New Zealand lignite were bound with pitch, do you think you would get the same ill effects from the pitch, and without the compensating advantage of high calorific power ? —I should certainly say so. If you had the same percentage of pitch as a binder you would get the same noxious fumes, with, as you say, a much lower calorific power. 28. The present objection would be greater with a lignite briquette ? —Yes, I should say so. 29. Mr. Cochrane.'] I think you told us that you valued the briquettes at Is. 6d. to 2s. less than coal ? —Yes, than lumpy screened coal. 30. Did you take into account the fact that the briquettes had a lot of slack amongst them ?—Yes. 31. In that case, what value would you place upon eggettes instead of briquettes, as against coal ? —Well, their relative values might be stated in this way: Briquettes are not within 2s. per ton of the value of coal, while eggettes are not within Is. 6d. per ton —that is, eggettes are 6d. per ton better than briquettes. 32. Now, supposing they could be manufactured and sold to you at 3s. a ton less than screened coal, would you consider the use of them ?—So long as we could get rid of the objectionable fumes, I think we could probably use them at 3s. a ton less, as compared with screened coal. 33. Then I think you said there were ash and clinker in the briquettes ? —Yes. 34. And you find more ash than with the Seddonville coal ? —Yes. 35. Do you not think that points to the poor class of coal used I —Yes, very likely. 36. Mr. Fletcher.'] Could you tell us what proportion of sulphur the briquettes and eggettos contain ? —The total sulphur in the briquettes is from 3-6 to 3-74 per cent. 37. Mr. Dowgray.] For the purpose of comparison, what proportion does the coal contain ?— Slightly under 5 per cent. —that is, according to the analyses of two different samples of coal, one from Chasm Creek Bridge and the other from Grant's Face; but it does not necessarily follow that the small coal used for manufacturing the briquettes was taken from those particular places. 38. You make an objection to the sulphur in the briquettes, while on analysis it is shown that there is more sulphur in the coal than in the briquettes ? —I think I have been misunderstood :my objection was to the poisonous fumes of the pitch. I also pointed out that there was a large percentage of sulphur in the briquettes. 39. In regard to the ash and clinker, do you not get a large amount also from the round coal ?— Not to the same extent as from the briquettes and eggettes. I might add that the pitch would absorb and account for a certain diminution of the sulphur-percentage as found in the briquettes and eggettes. 40. Has the Eailway Department declined to purchase briquettes or eggettes on account of their unsuitability ? —We have declined to purchase briquettes for the last two or three years. 41. Have you declined also to purchase eggettes ? —No, we have taken the eggettes in all cases, unless it appeared that some particular lot was going to overload us ; but we have systematically purchased eggettes from ftie State Coal-mines Department. We have not in any way debarred them.

GOLD. Thames Courthouse, 14th August, 1911. Boyd Bennie examined. 1. The Chairman.'] You are Inspector of Minos for this district, Mr. Bennie? —Yes. 2. I understand you produce certain data regarding the principal mines here obtained by you during your inspections? —Yes; this data extends over the year 1910, and has reference to the principal mines between what we call the Karaka and Shellback Creeks. [Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2.] If similar data respecting any of the other mines is required I can give it. 3. Have you the data taken at the examination of the Deep Levels made by the Commission on Saturday last? —Yes. [Exhibit No. 3.] Frank Trebilcock sworn and examined. (No. 1.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you, Mr. Trebilcock?—A miner. 2. For how many years have you been mining? —About eighteen years, twelve of which were spent underground. 3. Where? —Thames and Karangahake. 4. In what capacity? —As a miner only. 5. Have you had any experience in the taking of temperatures with instruments? —No. 6. You do not understand the taking of temperatures with either wet- or dry-bulb thermometers? —No.

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7. Now, what is it that you wish to lay before the Commission? —I desire to give evidence respecting ventilation and the cause of accidents. 8. The subjects in regard to which the Commission has to inquire are sanitation, ventilation, accidents, and bath-houses. Have you any opinion to offer as regards sanitation?— No. In the mines in which I have worked the sanitary arrangements have been fair, and I have no complaint to make as far as they are concerned. 9. Have you any suggestion to make in regard to the necessity for change and bath houses? —Yes. 10. Mr. Dowgray .] What mine are you working in at present?— The Waitangi. 11. Is the ventilation fairly good there? —Yes. 12. Have there been any complaints from the men? —No. 13. In regard to accidents, I understand you are working in a drive there : what distance is that drive in?— About 2,200 ft. 14. Is there any provision for a man getting out of the way when firing shots? —No, you have got to run back. 15. The Chairman,'] What suggestion have you to make? —A chamber or manhole should be put in about 150 ft. or 200 ft. from the face for a man to take shelter in. Sometimes we fire fifteen shots at a time, and there should be places where the men could get out of the way of the stone. 16. Mr. Dowgray, .] How many men work in that drive? —Ten men; four men on a day shift. 17. The Chairman.'] How many men would want to use the chamber at once? —Three men. 18. Mr. Dowgray.'] What distance should these chambers or manholes be apart?— About 500 ft. 19. The Chairman.] How far, on an average, have you known the stones to carry down the drive after shots ?—Pretty well 200 ft. 20. How far do the men have to retire at the present —it will probably depend on the length of your fuse? —About 500 ft. to be reasonably safe. 21. How far, then, back from the face would it be safe to have these chambers, or how close should they be kept to the face?— About 200 ft. 22. Mr. Dowgray.] In connection with shot-firing, will you give us your opinion on the use of batteries? —I have had experience of them in the Crown and Waiotahi mines, and I prefer the battery to the fuse. 23. The Chairman.] Have you manipulated the battery yourself?— Yes. 24. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you found any difficulty in getting your shot off? —I have never worked in a drive with a battery—only in a shaft. The battery is safer when five holes or more have to be fired at once. You cannot always depend on the fuse. 25. Have you ever done any work with windlasses in driving a winze?-—No; but there should be cogs and pawl on all windlasses to prevent them breaking away and injuring the men who work them. I have known of such accidents. 26. The Chairman.] Recently? —Yes, about four months ago. 27. Are there any windlasses with cogs and pawl in use in the mines about here? —No, I have not seen any about the Thames. 28. Mr. Parry.] You stated to the Chairman, in answer to his question, that you have not had any experience with the thermometer? —That is so. 29. Has the manager ever taken the temperature while you have bee# working in the face?— I have never seen him do so. 30. Has the Inspector of Mines done so? —I have not known him to do so. 31. So that you have never seen the temperature taken in any place where you have been working? —No. 32. You have had a good deal of experience in working in hot places?— Yes. 33. What effect has that had upon you?—l have noticed that it has made me very sick, and when one comes home in the evening one cannot eat so well. One also comes out in a sort of " itch," and feels as if one could tear ones-self to pieces. Ido not know the temperature, but we have often had to take off our flannels and wring them out. It has been so hot that I have perspired even when standing still. 34. You think a standard temperature should be fixed for a six-hour place?— Yes; in some places even four hours is long enough. 35. Do you suffer from indigestion at all working underground?— No. 36. Hays you ever worked on the surface in hot climates? —Yes. ?' Would you sooner work on the surface than underground in the same heat? —I would prefer the surface any time. 38. According to your experience underground, do you think it is advisable to have sanitary appliances below? —Yes, certainly. At the Waiotahi we did have places for the men to go to. 39. The Chairman.] Were they used regularly by the miners? —Yes. There was an oil-drum kept in a dead end of the drive for the purpose, and when it was full it was sent to the surface. 40. Only when it was full? —Yes, when it required emptying. Another thing I wish to say is that the manager there provided a box tc throw waste crib in. 41. Would you make it compulsory for the miners to use these conveniences? —I do not think you could do so. 42. If a miner wants an advantage there is a corresponding onus on him to use it. Do you not think it should be made compulsory?— Yes, if it is provided. 43. Mr. Parry.] You have worked a good deal on the night shift underground?-—I have not done much during the last three years. 44. You feel better for not having done so?— Certainly. 45. What effect does it have on your health? —I do not like turning out to start work on Sunday nights, I admit.

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46. When are mine-accidents most liable to happen —at what time in the twenty-four hours? — That I cannot say, though I have noticed that more ground has fallen away between 12 and 8 o'clock than at any other time. 47. The Chairman.] Have you any suggestion to make in regard.to precautions which should be taken between 12 and 8 o'clock?—No, because 1 think if the night shift were done away with in a place like Waihi there would be a number of men thrown out of employment. 48. Mr. Parry.] In what way, Mr. Trebilcock? —Well, take the battery, for instance. Working two shifts they could not cope with the output from the mine without putting up more stampers. The night shift is better than no shift at all. 49. In regard to change-houses, do you think it is necessary to have them on the surface? —Yes. 50. They have them in these mines at the Thames? —Yes, but I have not seen any baths. 51. No hot and cold water? —No. 52. Do you think they are desirable for the workers?— Yes. 53. Have you ever done any inspecting at all for the workmen as a workmen's inspector?.—No. 54. Have you ever complained about the bad ventilation? —-Well, I have told the boss that it was asking a man to commit suicide to work where I was. 55. Was the ventilation remedied?— Sometimes you could not remedy it. We generally came out of the place till the atmosphere improved. The gas is the trouble here. 56. Do many accidents happen in the mines at the Thames? —There are very few serious accidents, but several minor ones have occurred, such as broken ribs, poisoned fingers, &c. 57. They cannot be compared in number with those in Waihi and Karangahake?—No, there is no comparison at all. 58. What do you attribute that to?—To the contract system, under which there is too much rushing. 59. Has there been any dispute between the management and the workers in connection with wet or hot places, as to what constitutes a six-hour place 2—No, I do not think there has. The manager would say, " This is a wet place, and you are to work a six-hour shift here." 60. Mr. Molineaux.~\ I understand you have been accustomed to handling explosives for the last eighteen years ?—Yes. 61. Are the explosives always provided in good condition, thawed ready for use?— Yes. 62. Do you have many misfires?—At times, several. 63. On what average?—-As many as three in a day; but I have gone a month without any. 64. The Chairman.] Three in a day out of how many shots? —Eight. 65. You put in your own fuse and cap?— Yes. 66. You prepare and grease your own charges?—-Yes. 67. Mr. Molineaux.] You have an average of three misfires out of eight shots )-rNo. 68. What is the average? —About 1 per cent. 69. What is the usual cause of those misfires? —Sometimes bad fuse; at other timeg water or sawdust getting into the cap. 70. Do you consider the fuse is more often defective than the detonator —what is the most frequent cause of a misfire?— Bad fuse. 71. The Chairman.] What do you use for tamping?— Clay. 72. Do you draw your shot to investigate the cause of the misfire?—-1 have done so. I have seen the fuse burn within 3 in. of the cap. 73. Mr. Molineaux.] Do you ever test your fuse?— Yes, I do if I have any doubt. 74. If it is defective, what course do you take? —I tell the boss about it, and it is sent back to the store, and we get another one supplied. 75. In the course of your experience, what is the longest period which a charge has hung fire? —Ten minutes is the longest I have known. 76. The Chairman.] What is the average time that you remain out?—lt all depends. If you are working on wages you might wait an hour before you go back, but if on contract it would probably be between fifteen and twenty minutes. 77. Mr. Molineaux.] Have you had any misfires with the electrical battery?— Yes. That has been when we were firing a number of holes —say, thirty—and perhaps sixteen would go off. On one occasion we inquired of the manager for the reason, and he said we should have used extra wire. 78. The Chairman.] They were not misfires—the trouble was simply that they did not light? —No, they did not light. 79. Mr. Molineaux.] On all occasions would you prefer electrical firing as being safer than the hand-fuse? —Yes, I consider the battery is far safer than the hand-fuse. 80. Do you consider that it would be conducive to the health of the miners if all mines were equipped with bath-houses and it was compulsory for the men to use them?—l would make it optional for the men to use them. 81. The Chairman.] How many men would you suggest per bath?— One bath for each six men. 82. Mr. Molintaux.] I notice that you complained that as the result of working in hot places you suffered from " itch " ?—Yes. 83. Do you think if you had had a bath every day after leaving your work you would have , suffered in that way? —Possibly not. 84. Do you think that the mine-managers have done all they reasonably could to render the mine-workings healthy?—As far as it is in their power to do so. 85. Do you think that the miners themselves'take every available precaution to render mineworkings healthy? —Yes, as far as I am aware. 86. In the mine in which you are working are the places objectionable ?—Well, we have the water spray, and the only time it is objectionable is when we are firing, and then we put the water on it and cool it down.

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87. When drilling by hand what precaution do you take J —With a down-hole we put the water in, but with the up-holes we take no precaution at all. 88. The Chairman.] Do you suggest that there are precautions which the miners could take, but of which they do not avail themselves? —Well, with the up-holes you could not put the water in. 89. Could you not have a fine spray?—l cannot see how it could act; it would be very awkward. 90. It would be no more awkward than the other? —With a hand-drilled hole it would be 2 ft., and with a machine-drilled hole it would be 5 ft. or 6 ft. 91. Could you not have a fine spray playing round the mouth of the hole on to the dust as it falls out ?—I think it would be interiering with the drill, but perhaps you could. 92. Would it retard the work to any considerable extent?—lt would be somewhat inconvenient to the man who was boring if he were working single-handed. 93. Would it be a feasible plan?—No, I do not think it would. The ordinary miners do not bother about using water unless in a down-hole. 94. Mr. Molineaux.] You have not felt any injurious effects from the dust? —So far I have not, but that will probably come later on. 95. You have not considered it worth while to prevent the bad effect? —No, only with rockdrilling. 9b. Mr. Cochrane.] In sinking winzes and shafts you recommended that cogs and pawls be put on windlasses: would you have them on every windlass or only when certain depths were reached? —On every windlass over a winze or shaft. 97. Without regard to depth, would you have it supposing you were going to sink only 10 ft. 1 —Yes. 98. You stated that the air was very bad where you were working? —Yes; from December to April it is very bad in the Waiotahi. 99. Is it a struggling mine or a prosperous one?—-It was prosperous once, but it is not now. 100. How would you deal with such bad ventilation? —I do not know that anything could be done. There are two shafts, downcast. Ten feet away from the current of air you will find any amount of CO a in the summer-time. 101. The Chairman.] Do you suggest that better circulation would help to remedy it?—l hardly know. With gold-mining it is different from what 1 understand it is in coal-mines, where you are working all on the one level. 102. Mr. Cochrane.] Were you referring to winzes?— Well, I have seen winzes full up to the collar with gas. 103. As to the baths, you suggested one for every six men : do you mean plunges or showers 1 —Both—one shower for every six men. 104. Mr. Heed.] At the Waiotahi Mine have the men asked the Inspector for manholes to be put in a drive? —No, not that I am aware of. 105. If it is dangerous, why have you not asked the Inspector, as you are empowered to do by section 263 of the Act ? —I have been there only five weeks contracting, and I did not give it a thought until this Commission was coming round, though I considered it was not right. 106. You did not think it was sufficiently dangerous to make a complaint about under the Mining Act? —I had intended to do so before long. 107. How many sets of timber are there in that drive?—l cannot say; it is a big order. 108. How far are they apart? —4 ft. 6 in.; but there is considerable space where there is no timber. 109. What are the dimensions of the timber? —9 in. by 9 in., rimu legs. 110. Have you suggested either to the mine-manager or to the Inspector that electrical firing should be used? —Not to that mine-manager. 111. You referred to an accident four months ago in the mine at Tairua : was the man badly hurt? —I do not know; I have forgotten. 112. Do the miners at the Waitangi Mine take advantage of the check inspection by the workmen's inspectors? —No; I do not know that check inspectors have ever been through the mine. 113. Why not? —That is a question I cannot answer. 114. Were you aware that such inspections are provided for under the Act?—No, I was not aware that we could have an inspection made unless in case of accident. 115. Is the Waitangi Mine well ventilated? —Yes. 116. You also say that the Inspector of Mines and the mine-manager do not take the temperatures at Waiotahi I—l1 —I have not seen them do so. 117. Was there any necessity for that to be done?—l think so, particularly in those hot places. 118. At the mines where you have worked has reasonable attention been given to the removal of the COj ? Yes, but I have seen levels banked up where.the best air could not go. 119. So that you have found that the CO a has issued in such quantities as to be almost unremovable?— Yes, in the muggy weather. ....• ... . : 120. The Chairman.] Is that applicable to .the Thames mines?— Yes, from December to April. 121 Can you tell the Commission what effect carbon-dioxide has upon you?— Yes; it gives you a severe headache and makes your, heart thump like a steam-hammer. With 10 per cent, the candle will go out; with about 1 per cent, it will burn very dimly with a bluish flame. 122 Would you detect the presence of this gaa by its effects on your candle? —Yes. 123 - . And you consider that a good test?— Yes; when the candle burns but dimly it is time to get out. 124 Have you had any experience with carbon-monoxide I —JNo. 125~. Have you felt any ill effects from smoke given off after the firing of gelignite or high explosives?— Yes; it gives one a severe headache. ~ ~ » -rr 126. A different sensation to what you have observed with carbon-dioxide I —Yes.

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127. Have you felt more serious results by smoke from high explosives'*—lt is far worse with carbon-dioxide than I have felt with carbon-monoxide. One per cent, of carbon-monoxide is fatal. 128. Exit from the smoke, did you experience worse effects on your health? —As far as I am aware at present I cannot say, but I believe gelignite fumes are bad for any man. 129. You have had no cause to complain of carbon-monoxide? —No, only from the results of going back in the smoke. 130. Does that occur frequently? —Yes. 131. Are you contracting in the Waitangi Mine?— Yes; we go back at our own risk. 132. Do you buy your own explosives?—We tell the manager what we want and he gets it at the store. 133. Is the air at the Waiotahi Mine as good as, or better than, at the other mines at the Thames?—As good as in any mine on the flat —Caledonian, Victoria, or Saxon. 134. Would you regard the Waiotahi air as very good?—ln places it is very good, and in other places very bad. 135. The Chairman.'] Have you any suggestion to offer for dealing with natural gas coming out of the rocks?— No. 136. Do you think the system you have now is as effective as you could get it, or have you anything further to suggest?— No. 137. Mr. Parry.] Have you taken every precaution for your own health and safety as far as the appliances have helped you ? —Yes, except as regards rushing back after firing a shot. 138. With regard to Mr. Reed's question as regards making complaints respecting the necessity for making manholes, it is not always advisable for the men to make complaints to the manager, is it? —Certainly not. 139. Why?— Well, you will be accused of complaining all the time, and will probably be told that if you do not like it you can get out. 140. In regard to those places where the gas is prevalent, what would you suggest to provide 100 cubic feet of air per man in those places? —It would require several exhausts to pull it out. 141. What tamping do you use generally?— Clay tamping. 142. Is it all claj r tamping used on the Thames? —I could not tell you. 143. What effect do you think bag and paper tamping would have on the miners?—-It would give more smoke; it is very injurious. 144. The Chairman.] In what way?—l have not had any experience of rag tamping. 145. Mr. Parry.] As regards Mr. Reed's question respecting your going back at your own risk after firing shots, how is it that you go back so quickly under the contract system ?—Well, time is money; the longer you stop away the more money you lose. 146. And I suppose a certain day's wage has to be made? —Yes. 147. Is that the reason you go back quicker after firing? —Yes, Jambs Kidd sworn and examined.- (No. 2.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Kidd?—l have been mining for fourteen years, though I am not following it at the present time. 2. How long is it since you ceased? —Six months. 3. What are you now?-—A carpenter. 4. Have you been incapacitated from mining?—No, 1 am simply taking a spell. 5. Where were you mining for those fourteen years? —Reefton, Westport, Waihi, Karangahake, and Thames. 6. Have you had experience at all in taking temperatures by instruments? —No. 7. Now, upon what matters do you wish to inform the Commission? —As to accidents, ventilation, sanitation, and bath-houses and change-houses. 8. Mr. Dowgray.] You are not working in the mines just now? —No. 9. Why did you leave the mines? —Under the conditions of the mines I thought it would pay me to leave it for a while and have a spell outside. 10. How does the ventilation of the Thames mines compare with that of the mines where you worked elsewhere? —-Very unfavourably. 11. Could you suggest any means whereby they could be improved?—To ventilate them by drawing the air out by artificial means rather than the means they have at present. 12. The Chairman.] What means have they?— There are only two mines working by artificial ventilation —the Waitangi and the Deep Levels; the others are all worked by natural ventilation. 13. Do you suggest that the artificial ventilation could be improved upon?— Yes, by putting up a bigger plant than they have and working by exhaust instead of by blower. 14. You suggest that an exhaust should be used instead of natural ventilation?— Yes, the exhaust would be much better in all the mines. 15. Have you had any experience of mines working by exhaust? —Yes, on the West Coast, in the ooal-mines at Millerton and Granity. There the air is drawn out of the mine in a stone drive. They had a level bratticed right up the centre, and the fans draw the air out, with the result that they have better ventilation than they have here. 16. Mr. Dowgray.] What would be the length of that stone heading?—lt was three-quarters of a mile to the layby, and then about 10 chains from that in. 17. In regard to accidents, have you ever had any experience of accidents resulting from misfire shots? —No, but the method of firing could be improved. I would be in favour of using an electric battery for firing more than five shots. 18. Do you consider it is not safe above five? —Yes, it should apply to five and upwards. 19. Have you had any experience of firing with a battery?— Yes.

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20. Have you found any difficulty ? —No, oniy in connecting up your wires. 1 think you have a better chance of safety, because once you throw the battery out of connection there is no possibility of a misfire. 21. You will have heard what the previous witnesses have said in regard to windlasses : what is your opinion respecting the necessity for cogs and pawls? —I have used them in Waihi with cogs and pawls, and consider it a good idea, which should be adopted here. 22. The Chairman.] What would it add to the cost of the ordinary windlass?—l cannot say exactly, but it would not be a very big item. 23. Is it any clumsier, or are there any objectionable features I —No, I do not know of any objectionable features at all. 24. Mr. Parry.] You have had some experience in working in hot places?— Yes. 25. What effect has it had upon you?—lt weakens a man, puts him off his food, and sometimes . causes " itch." 26. Do you consider it necessary to have a standard temperature fixed for working underground ? —Yes. 27. Could you make any suggestion as to fixing the heat? —No, I am not up in the matter of temperatures. 28. Have you ever worked in a place where the temperature has been taken? —No, not to my knowledge. 29. Have you felt any bad effects from mining at all? —Yes, in the lungs. 30. Do you feel any bad effects in your lungs to-day ?—Yes, I have not got over it yet. 31. The Chairman.] Have you been under medical treatment ?—No, 1 have not let it go that far. 32. Mr. Parry.] What advantage would it be to the miners to have proper change-houses, drying-apparatus, and baths? —Well, in my opinion they would have better health, and a man would not be taking home the dirt and dust from the mine. They should have them in all the mines. 33. Have you known the miners making complaints about the ventilation?— Yes, to the minemanager. 34. Do the workmen as a rule care about making complaints?—No, they do not. 35. Why?— Because it causes ill feeling between the manager and the men. 36. What is your opinion about the necessity for sanitary appliances? —I think every mine should have sanitary conveniences. In my own experience of Waihi they had them, and I found that the men took full advantage of them. 37. The Chairman.] Would you make it compulsory on the men to use them?— Yes, certainly; it would improve their health. 38. Mr. Parry.] What is your opinion about the use of bag and paper tamping?—lt should never be used at all. 39. The Chairman.] Have you had experience of its use?— Yes, with every man using it. They should never be allowed to use it. 40. What is the objection to it?— Well, it causes so much smoke and fumes when used with gelignite that a man does not need much of it to do him harm. The fumes of the smouldering bag are very bad. 41. Mr. Parry.] Bagging is used very often? —Yes, they use anything they can get. 42. Does that bagging blow into fine powder and become dust? —Yes. 43. Is tamping supplied at the face?—l have worked in mines where it has been supplied handy, but in others the men have to do the best they can. 44. Under the contract system you have to find your own tamping?— Yes. When I worked in the May Queen Mine they sent the tamping in. 45. Where have you found the most accidents taking place in New Zealand? —In Waihi. 46. To what do you attribute that?—ln a way to the contract system, and also because there are more men working there. 47. You have had a good deal of experience in Karangahake, Waihi, and here : will you tell us your opinion as to the height of stopes?—No stopes should go above 10 ft. in the clear. 48. From the filling? —From the filling to the back of the stope. 49. As regards your answer to Mr. Dowgray's question re ventilation, is it possible to have natural ventilation in development-work? —No, you want artificial ventilation there. 50. The Chairman.] And which form of artificial is the best?—l prefer, myself, the exhaust, to take the air and heat out of the face where the men are working. 51. Mr. Parry.] In the course of your experience have you found at what time during the twenty-four hours most accidents take place ?—r-I consider that most of them occur on the 12 o'clock midnight to 8 o'clock in the morning shift. 52. The Chairman.] Can you give any reason for that?~-No, but it seems a peculiar thing that most ground seems to move during that time. Perhaps the men have not their wits about them as they have on day shift, having missed portion of their sleep; they are thus probably less physically fit for their work. 53. Mr. Parry.] How is it, then, that a man is not physically fit at night ?—Sometimes a man cannot get any sleep if he is working on the night shift. 54. Mr. Cochrane.] You say you favour battery firing : for what number of holes? —For over five holes. 55. In one place at one time? —Yes. 58. Mr. Beed.] Have you made a study of the question of fan versus blower?— No. 57. Just now you expressed an opinion upon the subject, and I asked you, does not the exhaust draw the air up the drive to the men?— Yes.

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58. May not the air in the drive be vitiated by gas issuing in the middle of the drive, and thus by drawing up that air do you not tend to vitiate the drive?— Yes, in that instance. 59. Would the pipe delivering the air at the face not carry vitiated air away?—No; I say that if you drew the air out you would take from the men the gas which hangs back between the face and the chamber. 60. You said that the pipe delivers fresh air to the men : what better could you get than fresh air? —You could not get better than fresh air. 61. Do you think that as much air can be drawn up the pipe as could be forced through it? —I do not know. 62. So really you are not an expert on the subject? —No, I am but a working miner. 63. As regards the falls during certain hours of the night, is that not simply an old miner's superstition?—-I do not consider myself superstitious. 64. Have you been able to obtain a good reason from your fellow-miners as to why falls should occur between 12 o'clock and 8 o'clock? —No. 65. Clearly, then, it is more or less a superstition without any reason? —It seems to happen— whether it is superstition or not I do not know. 66. As regards the windlasses, is there any danger of the handle striking the operator when the bucket is descending the winze or shaft? —Yes. 67. As regards Waihi, are you aware that the Mining Inspectors have requested the men to make the backs in the stopes only 8 ft. high?— No. 68. Have you worked there? —Yes. 69. The Chairman.'] What is the average height of stopes there?— They were working them 15 ft., 18 ft., and 20 ft. high. 70. Mr. Eeed.] Can you inform us how many there were at that height? —Only one stope I know of. 71. So that you can only speak of one stope?—-Yes, but there were others. 72. Mr. Parry.] Is there any danger, when pulling the bucket up with the windlass, of its catching when there is no pawl on the windlass? —Yes, it will jerk the handle out of your hand, and you are apt to get a broken nose or a split head; if the pawl were there it would catch it. 73. As regards the blower and the fan, what is your opinion in regard to the blower?—l prefer the exhaust to the blower. Albert Jamieson sworn and examined. (No. 3.) 1. The Chairman."] What are you, Mr. Jamieson? —A miner. 2. For how long have you been mining?— Off and on, for fifteen years. 3. Where? —Mostly in the Tapu district, and also about the Thames. 4. Have you acted as check inspector or underviewer? —No. 5. Have you had any experience in the taking of temperatures with instruments? —No. 6. Upon what matters do you wish to inform the Commission? —As to ventilation and sanitation of mines. 7. Have you anything to say in regard to accidents? —No. 8. Have you any information as to the desirability or otherwise of change-houses and bathhouses ? —Well, I think it would be a good thing to have such accommodation. 9. What number of men to a bath would you suggest?— Just one bath to a mine, because all the miners will not use them; the men who live a good way away would go home without baths. One bath to a mine would be sufficient, judging from the number of men I have seen working. 10. Mr. Dowgray.] Which mines have you worked in in this district?— The Waiotahi and the Deep Levels. 11. How does the ventilation compare there with that of other mines you have worked in?— They are all much alike. 12. Were you working in the Deep Levels here before this blower was put in? —Yes. 13. How does it compare with the ventilation before the blower was put in?— You can live in it. and that is about all 14. Are you working in the mines at the present time?- —No, I am working outside just now. 15. How long did you work in the Deep Levels? —This last time only nine shifts, and that was long enousrh. 16. Even with the blower? —Yes. 17. The Where were you working?—ln the main crosscut. 18! Mr. Dowr/rav.~\ What length of shift,were you working?— Six hours. 19. How is it determined to be a six-hour place?—l do not know, but T think the Drainage Board it a six-hour place. 20. The Chairman.~\ Who compose the Drainae-e Board? —It is composed of a committee of mining men in Auckland. It was made a six-hour place in terms of the contract. 21. Do you know why they made it a six-hour place?— Because they wanted to set it finished quickly. I myself consider that four hours is Ion? enough. 22. Mr. Dowc/ray.'] Did you make any complaints about the ventilation there? —Yes, I complained to the boss about the heat there. 23. Did you truck in it? —Yes, a little; the truckinnr was worse than the other work. 24.' Ca.n you suggest any remedy in regard to ventilation ? —Well, there was a level at Tapu 1.300 ft., and they made an eyhaust there which ket>t the workings clear. 25 The Chairman.l At what depth was it? —Tt was a ground level. 26. Mr. J)ownray.~\ What difference would the exhaust make to the truckinsy-roads?—lt ought to keep th» level clear. 27. What method of inspection at the week-ends have they?— When we went on. the blower had just been started. I think it should have been kept going all the time.

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28. Do you mean to tell the Commission that when the shift knocks off on Saturday the blower is stopped and started again just before you commence work? —Yes. 29. You have heard a reference to these windlasses: have you had any experience of them? —Yes, I had one mate hurt with one of them. It struck him across the bridge of the nose. If there had been a pawl the accident would not have happened. 30. You think that it should be made compulsory by law to provide them? —Yes. 31. Mr. Parry.] Have you worked in any hot places?— Yes, in a few of them. 32. Has it had any bad effect on your health? —Yes. 33. In what way?— Well, I feel my wind affected most. lam very short-winded at the present time. 34. The Chairman.] Have you worked in hotter places than this drive about which we were speaking?—No, I think it is the hottest. 35. Mr. Parry.] You have had no experience with the thermometer at all? —No. 36. Do you think there should be a standard temperature fixed? —Yes, there ought to be, for a six-hour place. 37. Do you think a shift ought to be reduced in some places to less than six hours?—lt would be hardly worth while changing to go down for a shorter shift. 38. What is your opinion of the advantage to be derived from change-houses, baths, and drying-apparatus?—lt would be a good thing for the men to have a wash at the mine if they felt inclined to do so, and put on their clean clothes. Otherwise they would take home a lot of dust and filth. 39. How many men, do you think, out of a hundred would refrain from taking advantage of these conveniences for changing in the event of their being provided ?—Very few. 40. The Chairman.] Have you had any experience of them? —Yes, over at the Hauraki Mine the men use a bath. 41. Was that the only mine with a bath where you have worked?—-Yes. 42. You think practically all the men would use it?— Yes. 43. Mr. Parry.] What is your opinion about sanitary arrangements below?—l think there ought to be some such conveniences, instead of allowing the men to use the water-drains and other places. 44. Do you consider mining a healthy occupation ?—No, not by any means. 45. At what time during the twenty-four hours do you think most of the accidents occur?— Well, Ido not know. I have seen as much ground falling by day as by night. 46. The Chairman.] You have no record? —No. 47. Mr. Parry.] Did you work in Waihi or Karangahake?—No. 48. Have you worked where many accidents have taken place?—No; I have just seen a couple of slight accidents. 49. You have not much experience as far as accidents are concerned? —No. 50. Have you worked in a mine where many men were lowered? —Yes. 51. What is your opinion as regards an assistant engine-driver?—l think one engine-driver is all right, but the tests given to the ropes have been no real tests at all. 52. Where men are being lowered, is it fair for the men to have to intrust their lives to one man?— Well, I think the night shift would be the worst for that, but I have always worked with very erood engine-drivers. 53. Do you think the night shift would be the worst?— Yes, because a man is then drowsy. 54. The Chairman.] Are not the signals sufficiently loud to wake them? —Yes. 55. Mr. Parry.] Do you not think there is a great deal of responsibility placed upon the engine-driver? —Yes, a lot of responsibility. 56. What is your opinion as to bag and paper tamping?—l do not believe in the use of it. 57. Have you worked in places where it has been used? —Yes, not very long ago. 58. What effect did it have?— There is quite enough stench without having to put up with that which comes from bag or paper or rag. 59. Did you ever feel any bad effects from dynamite-smoke where the air has been otherwise good?— Yes, it has given me a bad headache. 60. Mr. Reed.] In the 1,300 ft. drive at Tapu, at surface level, are the conditions as regards gas similar to those in the Thames Deep Levels? —No, there was no gas at all. 61. The conditions not being similar, is it a fair test of exhaust versus blower?— Well, it was there. 62. But you say the gases were not present?—As far as the air was concerned it was a fair test. When you ptit the exhaust on you could see oufan hour afterwards. 63. But had the eras been there in the middle of the drive, would not the exhaust fan have drawn that gas up to the men? —It would go to the mouth of the pipe, but not any further. 64. But the pipe would deliver fresh air to the men ?- -Yes. it would draw fresh air down as well as take bad air out. 65. Are you aware that the pipes in the Thames Deep Levels have holes in them to circulate air in the drive as well as in the face? —There are only holes at the chamber. 66. If the pipe delivers fresh air at the face what better can you have?— There are many improvements that could be made. 67. Have you felt any ill effects from the fumes after blasting?—l have. 68. Are you aware what gas causes those ill'effects? —No, I do not know what gas you would oall it. 69. Has it caused a weakness in the knees? —Not that I know of. 70. You do not feel a weakness in the knees as the result of the smoke?—l have felt weak all over, and it also puts me off my food.

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71. Have you made any complaints to the Inspector of Mines about the state of the ventilation?— No. 72. Have you suggested a workmen's inspection of the mine, as provided by the law? —No. 73. I think you stated that during your fifteen years' experience you have not had much to do with accidents? —No. 74. You must have been in a very safe mine? —Yes, and 1 have taken care of myself. 75. Do you not think that fifteen years' freedom from accidents speaks somewhat well for the safety of the mines? —Yes. 76. Mr. Dowgray.] How far is the blowpipe from the face in that Deep Levels drive? —It was close on 100 ft. back from the face. 77. So that the men would not be getting the fresh air? —No. 78. The Chairman.] How far would the current carry? —About 30ft., perhaps—not more. 79. Mr. Dowgray.] How many men are working between the chamber and the blowpipe trucking? —Generally, two filling and two trucking. 80. So that even if the pipe is discharging the air it does not follow that all the men are getting the benefit of it?—No, they are in the return practically all the time. 81. And they are getting the whole of those noxious gases? —Yes. 82. Do they do any boring in that tunnel? —Yes. 83. Do you suffer any bad effects from the use of that water for spraying purposes?— Yes. If you have any scratches on you they do not seem to get well. An improvement should be effected in the water. 84. Where do they get this water? —From No. 6. 85. Is there any sanitary accommodation there? —No. 86. Then the excreta would be deposited along the road?— Yes. 87. Do they use the mine for that purpose?— Yes; I can speak personally of one man who used the mine for that purpose right alongside where we were having crib. 88. Where the water flows which supplies the spray?— Yes. 89. Mr. Parry.] It is not possible to ventilate by natural means in places of development?— No, I do not see how it is. 90. What is your opinion with regard to the use of both blower and exhaust?—l have never seen both used together. 91. Where gas issues in a long tunnel would it be advisable to use exhaust and blower? —I should say if they could both be used it would be very good. Hugh Farrelly sworn and examined. (No. 4.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you, Mr. Farrelly?—A miner. 2. How many years have you been mining?— Twenty years, on and off. ■3. Where?— Principally Waihi, Karangahake, Thames, and Africa. 4. Have you had any experience of taking the temperatures with instruments?— None whatever. 5. What have you to place before this Commission?—l wish to give evidence respecting sanitary arrangements, accidents, and ventilation. 6. Mr. Dowgray.] You are working in the Deep Levels? —Yes. 7. How does the ventilation there compare with that in West Africa?— Very badly. 8. The Chairman.] What system of ventilation is adopted in the West African mines? —Mostly natural ventilation; they have no artificial ventilation there at all. 9. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you ever complained about the ventilation in the Deep Levels? —Yes. 10. To whom?— Only among my mates. 11. Have you ever complained about the blower being stopped?— Yes. 12. To whom have you complained?— Only among ourselves. 13. By what means do they examine the mine before the men descend the shaft at week-ends? — By candlelight. 14. Do you think that is the best examination that could be made? —No, it could be improved. 15. In what way would you suggest improvement?—lt should be examined with a thermometer or some other instrument. 16. What do you examine the mine with a candle for?— For gas. The candle is put in a lamp and lowered down the shaft: if when it is hauled up it is burning the place is all right, but if it has gone out the air is bad. 17. Do you do any trucking? —Yes. 18. The Are you a trucker or a miner?—We take turn about. 19. Mr. Dowgray .] Which do you prefer, working in the face or trucking? —Working in the face. 20. Do you use the spray in the face?— Yes. 21. The Chairman.] Do you use rock-drills? —Yes. 22. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you suffered any bad effects from the water used with the spray? Y es 23. Where does it come from? —It is the drainage from the mine. .24-. How does it affect you?—lt will poison you if you have a scratch, and it also interferes with your eyes. 25. What do you attribute that to? —To the mineral in the water. 26. Do you consider that could be remedied?— Yes, by bringing fresh water from the surface. 27. The Chairman.] Is the surface water available? —Yes. 28. What quantity of surface water is available? —I could not say. 29. Do they use the water on the surface for any other purpose? —No, it goes down to the foreshore.

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30. Has the company any water-rights in connection with its mine? —Yes; there is fresh water laid on at the surface. 31. Mr. Dowgray.] Which water do they use to feed the boilers?—l do not know. 32. Where do they get their fresh water?— From the county main or borough supply. 33. Have you had any experience in connection with shot-firing? —Yes. My experience is that the battery is safer than the fuse. 34. Have you used both?— Yes. The battery is safer, more especially in wet places. ■35. Have you had any accidents with the fuse? —Yes, I have known men to be killed with it. 36. Such accidents have come under your personal observation? —Yes. 37. Where? —One in Africa and one in Karangahake. 38. Through misshots?—No, through defects in the fuse. 39. The Chairman.] W T ere the men trying to fire more than one hole? —Yes, probably halt a dozen. 40. Mr. Dowgray.] It is better to use a battery?— Yes, where there are rock-drills or other machinery. 41. You do not experience any difficulty in the use of the battery?- —No. 42. Have you had any experience of using windlasses? —No. 43. Are you in a position to give an opinion on the use of pawls on windlasses? —I have seen them used in Waihi. 44. How far are the blowpipes from the face in the tunnel where you are working now? — Within 25 ft. 45. Do you ever test how near you could hold a candle without its being blown out? —Yes, about 3 ft. away. 46. Do your lights ever burn dimly at the face? —Very often, with the blowpipe within 25 ft. 47. Have you had any experience which goes to show whether the exhaust or blowpipe is the better? —I think the blowpipe is very good, but I would like to see the exhaust used with it. 48. The Chairman.] Have you had any experience with exhausts? —Yes, in the Waitangi Mine. The exhaust is superior to the blowpipe. 49. Mr. Parry.] You say you have had no experience with temperatures taken with the thermometer ? —No. 50. How long have you been working in the mine here? —About fifteen weeks. 51. Have you not seen the Inspector or the manager taking temperatures?— No. 52. You have never heard the temperature read either? —No. 53. The Chairman.] You do not suggest that it has not been taken?—No; but I have not heard of its being taken. 54. Mr. Parry.] Have you had any experience of working in hot places? —Yes. 55. What effect has it had upon you?—lt has not a very good effect. A man is never the same after. 56. Do you think it is essential to fix a standard heat for a six-hour place?— Yes. 57. As regards, change-houses, and baths, and drying-apparatus, what is your opinion ?—T think they ought to provide both baths and showers. 58. Do you think it would have a beneficial effect on the health of the men?— Yes. 59. In the event of a man getting a cut on the hand, is it difficult to wash the dirt out with cold water?— Yes. 60. As regards complaints, you say you have complained amongst yourselves : have you ever made a complaint direct to the management?—No, not that I am aware of. 61. Do you know of any reason why the men do not complain to the management?— They seem to be frightened. If the men make a complaint to the leader of the shift it is his place to carry it to the manager. 62. What is your opinion of the necessity for sanitary appliances underground?— They should be provided in every mine. 63. The Chairman.] What is the practice at present?—l can only speak for myself. If there is a chance of going to the surface I do so. 64. Is there any obstacle placed in your way to prevent you from going to the surface?— None whatever. 65. Do you know of your own knowledge that the drives are used for that purpose?—No; T have heard it stated, but I have never seen it nryself. 66. Mr. Parry.] Working in the Deep Levels, is there always a chance for a man to go to the surface whenever he requires ?—Sometimes they cannot get the cages to go to the surface. 67. Would that have an effect on the health of the men?— Yes. 68. If the men used the drive, what inconvenience would be caused to the men working round about?—lt would cause a frightful smell, particularly in warm places. 69. Do you consider mining a healthy occupation?—No, it is very unhealthy. 70. As regards stoping, do you think a standard height should be fixed for the stopes?—Yes. 71. What height would you suggest?— About 8 ft. 72. From where? —From the top to the solid. 73. In regard to wide stopes, do you think they are dangerous to work in?— Yes. 74. Would you suggest anything to be done in the case of a wide stope?—l could not suggest anything. 75. The Chairman.] Does it not depend upon the country whether it is dangerous or not?Yes, a lot depends upon the country ; but, as a rule, when they are wide they are rotten. 76. You say that working wide stopes in rotten country is dangerous?— Yes. 77. Mr. Parry.] Do you have to pay more attention to wide stopes. 50 ft. to 60 ft., appearing to be hard than to narrow stopes?— Yen.

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78. The Chairman.'] Do you know the Waihi stopes? —Yes, I have worked in them. They are as wide as that. 79. What is your opinion as regards the lowering of a considerable number of men in a shaft ? —I do not know, but I think there ought to be an assistant driver. In a place like Waihi a driver is liable to faint or slip. 80. Why 2 —Any man is liable to faint at his post. 81. Is the driver specially liable to faint? —No; but 1 have heard tell of them slipping. 82. Mr. Parry. J You have never heard of an engine-driver fainting? You have never seen such a case in the paper? —No, I do not think so. 83. Do you not consider a risk is being run by the men who are suspended in the shaft? — There is a chance of a big loss of life. 84. Tht Chairman.] Have you ever known of any loss of life resulting from an engine-driver fainting or slipping?—No, I have never heard tell of it. 85. Do you think it is in any way detrimental to a man's health to use paper or bag tamping? —Yes; I have had experience of it. It causes a great deal of smoke and dust, which settles on their chests. 86. You stated that only a battery should be used where machines are working?— Yes. 87. You have had experience in Waihi? —Yes. 88. Are there many shots fired there at a time in the stopes? —Yes. 89. What is the largest number of shots you have seen fired in Waihi at one time? —As many as twenty in a stope. 90. And if you thought it advisable to use a battery where there were machines, would you also consider it advisable to use it there? —Yes, where there was a number of holes. 91. You say that accidents have happened at Karangahake by a hole exploding before the men had time to get away: how many such accidents do you know of? —Three or four. The men's names were Crosbie, Chester, Weyland, and there was also another. 92. Do you think that if a battery had been in use at that time the accident would have happened ?—No. 93. Mr. Molineaux] What have you found to be the usual cause of misfires where batteries have been used? —I do not know of many misfires. 94. You have had no misfires by electricity?— No. 95. You said that you considered mining a very unhealthy occupation : will you say why?— By reason of the dynamite-smoke and gas which a miner inhales. 96. Has it affected you seriously during your twenty years' experience?— Yes. 97. Have you been examined by a medical man recently ? —Yes. 98. With what result?—My lungs were found to be somewhat tainted. 99. You state that you have seen as many as twenty shots fired at one time in a stope : what was the length of that stope?—3o ft. to 50 ft. 100. Mr. Cochrane] You stated that this Deep Levels compared very unfavourably with other mines that you have had experience of. I wish you to tell us if the mines you speak of were developed mines with different air-shafts, or were you referring to smaller mines with only one shaft? —They were mines in course of development. 101. In the Transvaal? —No, in western Africa. 102. With only one shaft?— Yes. 103. You favour the exhaust system?— Yes. 104. Is that also in case of one shaft, or where there are winzes and rise to the surface? — With one shaft. 105. Then, does it not occur to you that you can get more efficiency by increasing the exhaust's power than by using the two separately ? —Yes, I think it would give a better current. 106. Is it not a fact that men will not use the spray where machine drills are working? I want you to tell the Commission your honest opinion on that point?— Well, they always use the spray where we are working. We never bore holes dry. 107. Is it not the case that men in other mines do not use the spray?—l do not know; I prefer to use the water. 108. Mr. Reed.] For what purpose do you suggest that surface water should be taken into the Deep Levels at the Thames? —For the benefit of the men. 109. In what respect?— They sometimes swallow the mineral water they are using, and it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. 110. How do you propose to use this surface water in the Deep Levels?—B3- taking it down the shaft and using it for boring purposes. 111. You said that the pipes were within 25 ft. of the face : would any special system of ventilation take the air nearer to the face? —No; it is blowing right into the face at present. 112. So for the men working in the face no other system would give better air? —It gives them good air while they are there. 113. If you had exhaust ventilation in the Deep Levels, would it not carry the gas to the men in the face? —It would carry it to the end of the pipe. 114. So that you would dilute the whole course by carrying that air right up the drive to the face?—lt would carry all the gas up to the face. 115. So that everybody would get the gas?—l do not think so. 116. How would they escape the gas? —The air would be circulated. 117. But the men would be in the level, and they could not get out of the way of the gas?— Yes, the gas would be there too. 118. With the blower do the men get the gas?—lt gets between the face and the chamber. 119. But nobody is safe from the gas?— No.

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120. You would like to see both exhaust and blower? —Yes. 121. Would that not cost a good deal of money?—lt is a matter of men's lives. 122. Would it not be very expensive to have that luxury?—lt would probably cost a good deal of money. 123. It would probably be the means of stopping the works?—l would sooner see it stopped than that the miners should be injured. 124. Why have you not complained to the Inspector? —I have never seen the gentleman. 125. Have you taken advantage of the workmen's inspection section of the Mining Act to examine the Deep Levels and record it in a book?—No, it is not the custom. 126. Where is it not the custom? —Here. 127. Is it the custom at Waihi ?—lt may be; I could not say. 128. You stated that you preferred natural to artificial ventilation? —Yes. 129. How would you get natural ventilation into the Deep Levels? —By the exhaust. 130. But that would be making it artificial ventilation?— There must be a circuit. 131. Would you call the exhaust natural ventilation? —We would get natural air in the levels. 132. The Chairman.] What do you mean by " natural ventilation "1 —We would get natural air from the surface. 133. You said the mines in Africa have natural ventilation? —What I meant was natural air. 134. Was it by means of an exhaust? —No, simply by descending through shafts; there was no machinery used. 135. Mr. Seed.] You do not quite understand the difference between natural and artificial ventilation? —No, I do not think so. 136. Is it not a fact that the blower is only stopped on Sundays when no miners are at work? —From Saturday night to Sunday night. 137. Is it not a fact that the miners are called out if the blower is stopped for repairs?—No, it has not been so while I have been there. 138. Do you know that the contractors purchase their fuse and explosives from the merchants here? —Yes, I think so. 139. Are you a contractor?—No, I am a wages-man. 140. Do you know the Waitangi Mine?— Yes. 141. Is it a gassy mine? —No. 142. Is the ventilation in the Waitangi Mine very good? —Yes, very good. 143. Do not the managers prohibit the pollution of the Deep Levels crosscut by the men? — So far I have not heard anything from them. I have heard they do, but Ido not know it for a fact. 144. Have you ever known an engine-driver fainting while at work?— No. 145. Have you ever heard of one fainting?—No, only slipping. 146. Then, why make a recommendation by which the management would be put to double the expense to prevent accidents which are never likely to occur?— Well, in a mine like the Waihi there is a large number of men travelling in the shafts, and they are likely to meet with an accident at any time. 147. It would simply be an extra precaution, but possibly an unnecessary one, as no accidents have ever happened from that cause? —I have never heard of one. 148. In the Thames-Hauraki shaft is there room for an extra line of pipes, supposing you wanted to duplicate your ventilation ?—I have never looked round to see. 149. Supposing there was not room in it, would you suggest that another shaft be sunk to carry down the pipes? —No, I would not. 150. Mr. Dowgray .] Do you know that the pressure in the blower has been increased during the last two weeks? —Yes, I think so. 151. Is that done as the result of complaints?— No. I do not know who made the request, but it has been increased. 152. You o,re not aware, I suppose, that there is a provision in the English Coal-mines Act requiring the appointment of assistants for engine-drivers ? —I do not know. 153. Are you not aware that winding accidents have occurred? —No, I do not know. 154. Is there any place in any of the mines here where the fumes are carried up from one section to another, or from one level to another ? —Yes. 155. Mr. Parry.] Do you think it is necessary till an accident takes place to suggest a remedy? —No. 156. Mr. Reed.] Would you suggest a remedy before an accident did occur?—l could not. 157. The Chairman.] You mentioned several accidents, and gave us the cause of one : can you give us the cause of the others? —The other accidents were similar, an explosion taking place before the men got away. The fuse sometimes runs. 158. You could not tell after the explosion had occurred whether the fuse has run?—No, you could not tell. 159. Are there not always two men in the face when they are lighting fuses? —Yes, generally. 160. Mr. Parry.] During the time you have been working at the Thames have you seen many accidents take place? —Yes, a few minor ones. 161. Have as many accidents taken place here as occur at Karangahake and Waihi?—No. 162. To what do you attribute that? —To the contract system. 163. Why? —Because of the hurry and bustle of the work. 164. The Chairman.] Do you never light a fuse with prepared paper?—No, I have never seen that done. You generally spit it with a little jelly. 165. You do not use paper prepared with saltpetre?— No.

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Harry Dare sworn and examined. (No. 5.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Dare?—A miner. 2. How long have you been a miner? —Between eight and ten years. 3. Where have you worked? —At the Thames, Waihi, Karangahake, and Tairua. 4. Have you had any outside experience other than on this field? —No, except for a little copper-mining in the Whangaroa district. 5. Do you know anything about taking temperatures or air-measurements with instruments? —No. 6. Do you hold any position in the mine? —No. 7. What is it you wish to submit to the Commission ?—1 wish to give evidence as to sanitation, ventilation, and accidents. 8. Mr. Dowgray.] How long have you been working in the Deep Levels? —Seven or eight months. 9. Was that prior to the installation of the blower? —Yes. 10. Has there been any improvement since the blower was put in? —Yes, in the face, but not in the trucking-road, where the air is getting worse as the tunnel goes further in. 11. Of course, you truck too? —Yes, we take turn about. 12. How does the ventilation compare with that of other mines? —Fairly well. 13. Have you ever worked where there was an exhaust? —In a mine on a small scale it acted very well. 14. Have you had any accidents with these windlasses? —Yes, I have seen one. If there had been a pawl on it the accident could not have occurred. 15. Do you recommend that pawls be attached to all windlasses? —Yes. 16. Have you had experience in the use of batteries or firing shots?—No, not much. 17. Are you in a position to express an opinion on the matter?—No, not at all, though I prefer the battery as being the safer. 18. Have you ever had any accidents with the fuse? —No, but I have seen some very narrow escapes. 19. Have you ever had any experience of fuse going off before its time?— Yes, very often. 20. Have you ever worked in a tunnel 2,250 ft. in without any manholes? —No. 21. Mr. Parry.] Have you had any experience of working in hot places?— Yes, a fair amount. 22. What effect has it had upon your health? —It has a very weakening effect I have found, and, as a rule, you come out in an " itch " and cannot eat your food. 23. You are not in a position to suggest a standard temperature for a six-hour place?—No, I am not up in that sort of thing. 24. Do you think it is necessary to have a standard fixed?—l do. 25. In regard to change-houses and baths, what is your opinion? —Baths and showers should be provided. 26. Would they have a tendency to improve the health of the miner? —Yes. 27. You do not think he would catch cold through using them? —No. 28. Have you ever made any complaints in connection with the ventilation, sanitation, or timbering when working in the mines? —In one place where I worked I believe a party did. 29. What is the reason for men not making complaints?—As a rule the result is that an ill feeling springs up between the boss and the men. 30. Is that the reason that complaints are not made?— Yes, it is partly the reason. 31. Do you think mining is a healthy occupation?—No, very unhealthy. 32. Does your health suffer? —I suffer as a rule from indigestion, and feel weak at times. 33. Have you had any experience of mines where the men have used bag or paper tamping? What is your opinion of it?—lt is very unhealthy, and should not be used. 34. You have used it yourself. Why?— Because there was no other tamping handy. 35. And you think it is bad for the health of the men ?—Yes. 36. What is your opinion about open cages? —I have had very little experience with cages. 37. In the event of a man fainting while coming up from below, what would be the result? — In most shafts there is plenty of room for him to fall out. 38. There is no precaution taken to prevent him from falling out?— None that I know of. 39. What is the difference between the width of the shaft and the size of the cage?—ln our shaft it is only 2 in. or 3 in., and in other shafts it might be 6 in. to 8 in., or perhaps a foot. 40. With 4 in. a man could not fall out? —No; but he might get his foot or his leg out. 41. And in the event of a man fainting and falling where there was only a space of 4 in.? — They would lind him in the chamber in the bottom. 42. Do you think there should be any precaution taken in regard to these cages? —Yes; in the event of men riding on them there should be. 43. The Chairman.] How often does a man go up in a cage by himself? —It all depends; he might go up three or four times on a shift if he wanted anything on the surface. 44. Mr. Parry.] But even if there were four or six men on the cage, would there not be as much chance of his falling ? —Yes. 45. In the case of a big man ? —Yes ; a man named Berryman fell out of the cage. 46. The Chairman.] Do you know of an accident happening as the result of a man fainting while being lowered? —No, I cannot say that 1 do. 47. Mr. Parry.] Did you ever see or hear of a man fainting in a cage?— Yes, I have heard of such a case. 48. You have heard other witnesses examined regarding the necessity for having assistants for engine-drivers : what is your opinion on the subject?—l believe that where there is a lot of men being wound up and down the shaft it would be a very good idea, but not for a small mine.

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49. How many men ride in this cage here? —Four. 50. You mean four men down and four men up?— Yes; eight men when they are changing a shift. 51. Do you think eight men are sufficient to warrant the appointment of an assistant to the engine-driver? —1 should hardly think so, but in a case like Waihi it would be a good idea. 52. The Chairman.] It might be a good idea, but would it be necessary? What are the chances of an engine-driver taking a fit? —He has as much chance as anybody else. 53. What is the average chance? —It would be very small. 54. Did you ever know of an engine-driver taking a fit or slipping so as to lose control of his engine?— No. 55. Mr. Parry.] Have you had much experience here with accidents? —Very little. 56. Anything like as many as at Waihi and Karangahake? —No, there is no comparison. 57. Do you think there is any reason for that? —Well, there are very many more miners there than here, and it may also be the result of working night shift. 58. Have you had any experience of exhaust and blower combined?—No; simply with the exhaust by itself on a small scale. 59. Did it act very well? —Yes; we had a current in 800 ft. 60. Did you ever work where a diversity of opinion arose as to what constituted a wet or a hot place ?—Yes. 61. And you think that a man working in a hot place cannot do justice to himself? —I am certain of it. 62. The Chairman.] What do you call a hot place?—l should say a hot place was where a man felt unwell and sick while he was at his work. 63. Where are you working in the Deep Levels?— Down at the crosscut in the main face. 64. Do you call that a hot place?—No, not in the face, but it is hot back in the level. 65. For what distance do you call it hot? —The really hot place is a good way back, nearly 100 ft. behind the blower. 66. Where do you get out of the hot place?—lt is right to the chamber. You would not be able to stop in the chamber except for the holes in the pipe. 67. Mr. Parry.] Do you think a man could do justice to himself working for six hours in that place?— Well, I think it is too much. 68. But in the face?—No, not there either, on account of the gas and mineral water. 69. Working in the face as it is at the present time, with a good current of air, would you consider it a six-hour place because of the water alone? —Yes, very much so. 70. Mr. Reed.] Would you prefer it to be a four-hour place?—No; I think six hours is a reasonable shift, but I believe the air could be improved with a stronger current. 71. Do you regard the Thames Deep Levels as being rather exceptional for gas?— Yes. 72. More difficult to ventilate than an ordinary mine?— Not a great deal. 73. Do you think a very reasonable attempt has been made to ventilate it?— Yes, to ventilate the face, but not the level. 74. Do you know the Deep Levels pumping-shaft ? —Yes. 75. Do you think it is large enough to take another air-pump down they could make it so. 76. Which compartment?— The pumping-compartment. 77. An air-pump as large as the one at present in the mine? —I would not say that. 78. You stated that you do not care to make complaints to the management?—lt is not the usual thing about here. 79. If there were serious reasons would you make complaints? —Yes. 80. Therefore there have been no serious reasons? —Yes, I have one. 81. Do you recommend gates for winding-cages?— Yes, when they are for winding men. 82. How would you open those gates, in or out?—l would suggest a gate with a couple of bars which could be taken off and laid aside. 83. Might not these bars themselves be dangerous?—No; you could have them worked on a slide. 84. Have you ever thought of having the workmen's inspections made as provided by law? — No, I cannot say that I have looked it up. 85. Were you aware that the Act made that provision?—No, I was not. 86. In the Deep Levels crosscut was there a flow of water cut last week?— Yes. 87. Have the air conditions become worse since the flow of water?— Yes. 88. The Chairman.] How long is it likely that this flow of water will last?— Not for a great while, but it tends to make the level worse. 89. Does the gas continue to come? —I suppose the greater quantity of it comes out, or else you would not be able to live there. 90. Does the first cut practically exhaust the gas?— Yes, practically; but it is coming out all the time. 91. Mr. Heed.] As the water diminishes, does the gas decrease also? —I could not say that. 92. Do you know the Exchange reef? —Yes. 93. When the water declined there, was not the air free from gas? —No, not altogether. 94. Was it a little?— Yes. 95. Then the gas declined to a certain extent? —Yes, to a certain extent. 96. So that the gas is irregular—it comes and it goes?— You get it in bigger quantities, but as you cut the gas the level behind is getting worse all the time. 97. What sized pipes would you suggest for the exhaust system?—A 9 in. pipe. 98. Do you think a pipe will draw as much air out as can be forced in through it?—No, I do not say it would, but I think it would clear the mine of all the smell.

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99. Do you think that that 22 in. pipe in the Deep Levels could be utilized to draw in as much air as you could force into it?—-I believe it could. 100. Your idea, then, is to duplicate it? —Yes. 101. Do you not think it would be very costly?— Not very much so; but something will have to be done. 102. Mr. Dowgray.] In reply to a question by Mr. Parry you said you were not up in matters of temperature. Now, if I tell you that the place you are working in at present registers 80° would you be able to tell me what temperature should be fixed for a six-hour place?— Possibly. 103. Are you, then, in a position to say what should be fixed as a maximum, temperature for a six-hour place?— About half that —40°. 104. Mr. Reed.] So you consider it should be fixed at 40°? —Yes, if that is half the temperature we are working , in. It could be fixed at from 40° to 50°. 105. Mr Parry."] You stated, though, that you are not in a position to speak regarding the standard owing to not having siifficient experience? —No, not to make a suggestion. Jambs Flkming sworn and examined. (No. 6.) 1. Mr. Chairman.] What is your occupation, Mr. Fleming?—l am greasing, and assisting in shaft-work as required. 2. Have you ever done any mining?— Yes, for about twenty-five years. 3. How long is it since you ceased? —About two years last June. 4. Why did you give it up ?—Because I thought I saw a better place offering. 5. It was not on account of ill health? —No. 6. What particular matter do you wish to refer to? —The whole category. 7. Have you had any experience of taking temperatures?— Yes, a general experience. I have been in charge of mines. 8. Do you hold a mine-manager's certificate? —Yes, I hold a first-class coal-mine-manager's certificate of competency. 9. What mines have you managed?—Mokau and Mokihinui. 10. For how long?— About two years in the two places. 11. How long ago?— About three and four months since I was last at Mokau. 12 Mr. Dowgray.] What experience have you had in connection with the ventilation of mines? —I have had experience in all capacities, from trapper-boy up to mine-manager, in the West of Scotland, New South Wales, Otago, West Coast, and the North Island. 13. When would you consider a mine properly ventilated?— When, a man working in it could get what was practically atmospheric air. 14. What, has been your experience in the ventilation of mines since }?ou came here? —My experience has been that sometimes you get fair ventilation and sometimes you do not. 15. What is your opinion in connection with blower and exhaust?—My work has sometimes taken me through the chamber, and the conditions I found there were beyond description, as compared with the ventilation in other mines where I have worked 16 The Chairman.] Can you be more definite? —Well, it is actually dangerous to life. 17. Mr. Dowgray.] In what way have you tested it?—By breathing it. I am sure I would not live long in it. 18. Can you suggest a remedy proper means of ventilation is by an exhaust. 19. The Chairman.] In addition to force?— The force is no way; it should not be there at all. The exhaust would be quite sufficient without the force. 20. Mr. Dowgray.] Is it possible to ventilate the mine? —By dividing your drive you could get a uniform air-course. 21. The Chairman.] What width of drive? —It could be done with the present drive. 22. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you had any experience in measuring air-currents? —Yes. 23. In measuring the air, where would you consider the proper place with this blower?—lf I could not get a circulation in the return airway I should not think there was a proper course. 24. If the anemometer did not register? —It would not then be a proper place for men to work in. I would, test it 50 ft. or 100 ft. from the chamber. The pipes are the intake, and the return is the drive. 25. The Chairman.] Do you consider you would get the worst air?— Certainly; because it is gathering behind, and there is nothing to drive it up. 26. Mr. Dowgray.] Have you had any experience of accidents? —I have seen a few, and I have heard of many more. 27. Have you had any experience of shot-firing by means of the battery?—l have had a short one, and would prefer not to express an opinion. 28. In connection with gates on cages, you have heard the evidence of previous witnesses : do you think precautions should be taken by putting gates on cages?—l do. Tn one mine I worked in we had a scheme whereby we could take the horses up the shaft. 29. Do 3'ou think the method we have here of testing cages is an effective one?— No. I do not. 30. Are they tested? —Yes, they are tested empty. 31. Do you consider they should be tested otherwise?— Yes, with a weight on. 32. Would you recommend that that should be carried out?— Yes, I think it is a more adequate test. 33. Do they examine the ropes about the mine-top here? —Yes. T have been present at the examination, but I do not know how frequently it is done. 34. Do you think they should be examined more frequently?— They should be tested every week-end. 35. TTn?: tho water here any effect on the ropes?—T believe it has; it makes them hard, and crA-stallizes them. **

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[J. FLEMING.

36. Mr. Parry.] You have had a fair experience of warm places underground?—No; I have had more experience of cool places, though I have seen one or two hot places. 37. What is your opinion as to the fixing of the maximum temperature for a six-hour place?— 1 should s&y it should be 80°. 38. The Chairman.] That is for heat alone? —Yes. 39. Mr. Parry.] You have had something to do with taking temperatures with the wet and dry bulbs? —No, I have only taken dry temperatures. 40. The Chairman.] Do you understand it thoroughly? —1 do not understand it thoroughly. 1-1. Mr. Parry.] You fixed the maximum at 80° : was that wet or dry? —80° moist atmosphere. 42. What is your opinion as to change-houses?—l cannot say, because I have not had much experience. We had one where I was, but it was very filthy; we had to clean it ourselves in our own time. We had no stove for drying our clothes. 43. Do you think it is necessary to have change-houses and drying-apparatus?— Yes; and they should be kept thoroughly clean and tidy, so that the men's clothes are kept free from insects. 44. What is your opinion of sanitary appliances underground?—lt should be made compulsory to have them. 45. Do you consider mining a healthy occupation? —Well, you cannot say it is very healthy, though in some places where I have been it has not been unhealthy. 46. What is your opinion of paper tamping: is it detrimental? —Of course, anything that will pollute the atmosphere is detrimental. 47. As to the appointment of assistant engine-drivers, what is your opinion on that matter? — I think it is going a bit too far. I am of opinion that where a great many men are employed there should be an assistant, but, on the other hand, where a man is not overworked he ought to be able to keep from sleeping. 48. Then, do I understand that you would advocate an assistant where a man was always engaged at his post?— Where I considered a man was absolutely hardworked I would engage an assistant to give him a change. 49. What would you call hardworked 1— -Where he could scarcely leave the handle because of so many cages coming up and going down. ■ 50. Have you heard of an engine-driver fainting? —No, not at the handle of his engine. 51. If you think an assistant would be necessary at one mine, would it not be equally so in the smaller mine ?—No; the responsibility is not quite the same, because in the smaller mines there is not a large amount of work to attend to, though certainly a man's life is as good to him at the smaller mines as it is at the larger mines. 52. What is your opinion as to the necessity for manholes in drives and long tunnels for the men to take refuge when firing?—l consider it is a good idea. In old mines where I have been we have always had manholes, and in a drive like this it is a very good thing in case of shots going off very quickly. 53. Of course, you are aware that provision is made for that in the Mining Act?—l am not very conversant with the Mining Act. 54. Have you had any experience in regard to wide stopes?—Only in the Waihi Mine, where I worked for a short time. It was too hot for me, and I got out quickly. 55. Do you think a certain height should be laid down in the Mining Act for stopes?—l do. 56. What would you suggest should be the height?— Never out of the reach of a man's control, so that if a stone is showing loose overhead he can get at it —that is. up to 8 ft. 57. Mr. Cochrane.] With regard to temperature, you say that you would have nothing more than 80° moist; by that did you mean completely saturated air I —Yes. 58. Then you said you would suggest a method for preventing men falling out of cages? — Yes, with two bars placed across the cage, making it impossible for a man to fall out. A method I have seen adopted was worked by means of hinges. 59. That would be very much against quick travelling?— Yes. 60. Have you anything practical to suggest?—l have never seen anything practical in operation, but I would suggest the two bars, so that a fainting man could not possibly be pushed out. 61. As to ventilation, would you exhaust from the levels with the present pipes?—No, I would have nothing to do with pipes at all. 62. How would you take your air in? —By dividing the air-course under a brattice system; but I would use timber. 63. But would that not require the enlargement of the drive?—No, not at all. 64. And what would your arrangements be surface? —You could have an exhaust fan, furnace, steam-jet, or various kinds of fan. The Guibal fan is a very good one. 65. You would not do it with a blower? —No; I have had one experience with a blower, and that is enough for me. 66. Mr. Reed.] As regards your knowledge of ventilation, has your experience been gained at quartz-mines? —At both quartz and coal mines. 67. Do you understand what is a water-gauge in connection with fans? —I think so. 68. Do you think an exhaust fan could work against a water-gauge of 17 in. pressure?—l certainly do. [The witness states he understood the question to be a 7 in. water-gauge.] 69. Can you tell me of any place in the world where an exhaust fan is working against 7 in.? —No, I cannot tell you. 70. Are you aware that Root's blowers are working against 27 in. ? —I do not know what the blowers are doing in New South Wales. 71. With exhaust ventilation what would become of the gas given off in the intake side of the brattice? —It would be diluted to such an extent that it would be harmless.

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72. Would that gas be carried right tip the whole length past the men trucking to the face via the intake side of the brattice? —Yes; but it would be diluted —gas and air combined. I would have to carry it right up round the brattice and back by the return. 73. How many cubic feet of air per minute would you consider necessary to dilute that gas in the crosscut in the manner you propose I—l cannot say what amount of air would be required. 74. If I were to inform you that there was 1,695 cubic feet coming out of the air-pipe on Saturday within 25 ft. of the face for only four men per shift, amounting to 424 cubic feet per man per minute at the face, would you consider that adequate? —Yes, I would consider it adequate under ordinary circumstances, but as we have extraordinary circumstances here at the Thames nothing can be considered adequate unless you have ventilation with air as nearly pure as possible; therefore I do not think it is a fair question. Sometimes there are men working in the return airway who require the air good from surface to surface. 75. The Chairman.'] There might be good air at the surface, but not everywhere? —It has to be good in all places when men have to travel or work. 76. Mr. Reed.] What percentage of carbon-dioxide would you admit? —From 0"15 to 1 per cent. 77. Is that by weight or volume? —By volume. 78. Would you suggest also an oxygen standard? —I would suggest a purely atmospheric standard. 79. With how much oxygen?—l have forgotten the composition of atmospheric air for the moment. 80. So you recommend quality test rather than a quantity test? —Both quality and quantity. James Fleming re-examined. 81. The Chairman.] What is it you wish to add to your previous evidence, Mr. Fleming? — Well, sir, a suggestion has been made to a witness that the speed of the blower was increased since the last flow of water and gas. Now, I have authentic evidence here to prove that the speed of the blower was increased seven days previous to this outburst of water. 82. Mr. Dowgray.] Are we to understand that on the 3rd August the speed was increased? — Yes, from 100 to 120 revolutions per minute, with a gauge of 31 in. The speed of the pump began to change on the 10th August from 9 to 10, and then right up to 13 - 4. 83. Mr. Seed.] What was the relative heights of the water-gauge on those occasions? —I have only the water-gauge when the blower was travelling at 120 revolutions. It was 3^. 84. Where did you get these figures? —I am not prepared to say. 85. Is this information second-hand? —It is taken from the diary. 86. From the diary—the official diary?—lhey are quoted from the official diary. Robert W. Wilson sworn and examined. (No. 7.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Wilson? —A miner. 2. For how long have you been mining? —Twenty to twenty-five years. 3. Where have you mined? —Moanataiari, Thames, Waihi, and Whangarei. I might state I have been out of the mines four years. 4. Have you had any experience of heat or air tests with instruments? —No. 5. What are you doing now? —Labouring in the foundry. 6. Why did you leave the mines?—l had hi: I enough of it; I had a nasty cough. 7. Were you under a medical man? —No. 8. On what matters do you wish to inform the Commission ?—Ventilation, sanitation, and accidents. 9. Mr. Dowgray.] In regard io ventilation, have you had any experience of blower and exhaust ? —-No. 10. What method of ventilation has been in use in the mines where you have worked? — Natural ventilation. 11. In regard to accidents, have you had any experience of shot-firing?—l had a man killed alongside of me in that way. 12. Have you worked with a battery?— No. 13. Have you had experience in regard to windlasses? —Yes. 14. Have they had pawls on them? —No, none at all. 15. Do you consider it would be a safeguard to have them? —Yes. 16. The Chairman.] How would you do with landing buckets at the shaft? —There are always three men, as a rule, and each man lands one bucket. You would have to throw the pawl on. 17. What protection would it give you? Is not there a danger of the man with the bucket slipping? —No, not if he has a proper hold of the handle. 18. Would you not want three hands? —No; you could pull your bucket up to the top of the winze and get it that way. 19. Do you think it would work satisfactorily? —Yes, if a man were careful. The pawl would be a safeguard. 20. Do you think it would be inconvenient to the man?—No, not at all. 21. Mr. Parry.] Have you had any experience of these cages here? —Yes. I do not believe the method of testing them is satisfactory. I have not seen a cage tested with a truck on. Further, Ido not believe in the cages standing at the shaft all night in cold weather; the chains are liable to snap with cold weather.

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22. In regard to ropes, are they examined at all?— They do not give them half enough grease. They may be greased once in two years, but it should be done oftener. 23. You have heard what other witnesses have said regarding bars on cages : have you any suggestion to offer? —I think something in the nature of a slip-bar as suggested would be the best. 24. Have you ever seen anything of the kind?— No. 25. Do you consider that they should be attached to all cages?— Yes. 26. Have you had any experience of working in hot places? —Yes. 27. What effect does it have on you?—lt made me very weak and sickly. I have had to take off my flannels and wring them. 28. Do you think that a proper standard of temperature should be fixed?— Yes. 29. As regards bath-houses, change-houses, and drying-apparatus, what is your opinion?— I think that every mine should have proper change-houses and baths, so that the miners could go home clean. 30. What is your opinion as to the necessity of sanitary arrangements?— Well, in most of the mines where I have worked the sanitation has been very bad. I have seen men using the drain. 31. Was that here at the Thames? —Yes, in the Saxon and Moanataiari Mines; and when the drain has got blocked we have had to go and clean it out ourselves. The smell was very offensive. 32. Do you think that appliances should be made and provided?— Yes. 33. You are not in a position to suggest a standard temperature on account of your inexperience in such matters? —No. 34. Do you say you have suffered from the effects of mining?— Yes, I was in the hospital for eight or nine days. I have been boring under several hundred pounds of compressed air in the Saxon Mine. I have seen the truckers unable to carry a light in the shaft, and they had to go 1,200 ft. in the dark : that was sixteen or seventeen years ago. 35. Why did you cease following mining?— Because I was unwell and could not enjoy my meals. 36. You have heard a suggestion as to the necessity of employing an assistant to the enginedriver? —Yes; it should be done in all cases where there are a great many men employed, as at Waihi. The engine-driver might take a fit. 37. As regards having manholes in tunnels and drives for the men to take refuge in, do you think that is advisable? —Yes. 38. What would you suggest?— They should be put in every hundred feet. A miner is not able to run far when shots are being fired, as he is short-winded. 39. What is the cause of their being short-winded?—lt is caused by the fumes and dust from the explosives. 40. Have you worked in Waihi? —Yes. 41. What is your opinion of the use of electrical batteries? —I have never used them at all, but I think they would be better than fuse for more than five holes. 42. You have worked in the stopes at Waihi : what is the largest number of shots you have seen fired there at one time? —From fifteen to twenty. 43. Do you consider there is any danger by plastering in those stopes —that is, putting dynamite on the rock and covering it with mud ?—I have done it myself, but I do not know that it is dangerous. I was very careful. 44. Have you ever returned after firing shots and found some not exploded?— Yes. 45. Did you ever find your dynamite lying on the stones?— Yes. I have put a pick into it almost myself. 46. Do you not think it would be safer to use a battery?— Yes, because the shots would all go off. 47. What is your opinion about the height of stopes?—There should be a standard fixed at 7 ft. or 8 ft. 48. Do you think a man should examine his stope every morning?—He will if he is a careful miner. 49. Is he in a position to secure the back of his stope if it is too high? —No. 50. Under those circumstances, do you not think it is for the safety of the men to have a standard height for stopes?—Yes; they should not be higher than 8 ft. 51. Is it usual for men at the Thames to make complaints to the manager?—No; they make their complaints to the shift boss. 52. Is there any reason why the men do not care about making complaints?— Yes; they might be blackballed and have to go out. 53. The Chairman.] Do you know of any such instances?— No. 54. As to tamping, do you believe that bag and paper should be prohibited?— Yes; I believe only clay and water should be used. 55. Mr. Molineaux.] Do you consider 10 ft. is too high for stopes?—Yes. 56. Mr. Cochrane."] You stated that you were not satisfied with the method of testing the cages or ropes : did you mean the strength of the rope?—l was referring to the method of testing the cages empty before the men go down in the morning. 57. Then, you are referring to the safety of cages. What do you propose?— lliat they be tested with a full truck on, equal to the weight of five or six men. 58. What is the average weight that is taken up in trucks?— They are half-ton trucks now, but in my time they weighed five to a load, which is a little over a ton. 59. You say that a cage should be tested with a full half-ton truck on?— Yes. 60. Mr. Eeed.] Is it not four years ago since you worked? —Yes. 61. So that you are speaking about what are now matters of ancient history? —No, I am not; there is no difference between the mines then and now.

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62. How do you know : you are not working in them? —But I go on what my workmates say, and what I have seen when I was there. 63. So that you really do not know anything about the present working conditions except from hearsay ?—That is so. 64. You referred to electrical firing as being safer than firing by fuse : do you know whether hangfires and misfires may occur with electrical firing? —I do not know anything about it. 65. Would you be surprised to hear that both do occur?—l would not be surprised at all. 66. The Chairman,] What have you learned by hearsay? To what conditions did your statement relate?—To the whole evidence as to cages and ropes. 67. To anything else? —No, nothing else. 68. What is the testing of the cage?— The testing of the safety appliances to see if they would act. 69. You suggest that ropes should be tested in the same way?— The cage should be tested with the average weight, and the ropes should be tested with twice the ordinary load. 70. But you would not test the rope with the breaking-strain. Do you know that ropes and chains have to be tested with double the carrying-weight under the Mining Act?— Yes, that would be a fair test. William Bibd sworn and examined.. (No. 8.) 1. The Chairman. ] What are you, Mr. Bird? —A miner. 2. How long have you been mining?— For forty-two years on this field. I was mining in Africa before I came here. ■3. In what capacity have you worked? —I have been manager for a little while in a small way. 4. What sort of a mine were you managing? —A quartz-mine with six or eight men employed. 5. Were you working from a shaft? —No, from adit levels. 6. Have you had any experience in taking temperatures?— No. 7. On what matters do you wish to inform the Commission?—l wish to say that lam suffering from miner's complaint, and I thought, if by giving evidence in regard to the matter, I would be rendering a service to the younger men, who are working under better conditions than I did in the early days, I should feel lam leaving the world better than I found it. In my days mining inspection was a farce, but it is better now. We had no supervision, no mining inspector, and no union to look after us. 8. How long have you been suffering from that complaint? —For twenty years or more. 9. How long is it since you ceased work? —About four years since I earned any money. 10. Are you under medical treatment? —Yes. 11. By which doctor?— Dr. Walshe, the hospital doctor. He tells me that no man in the world can do me any good. 12. Have you any objection to the doctor giving us the history of your case?—l would only be too pleased. 13. Mr. Dowgray.] Mr. Chairman, Ido not purpose examining this witness at any length, as I consider that to get the medical testimony will be sufficient. Although, Mr. Bird, as you say, the conditions have improved since you were mining in the early days, do you consider there is still room for improvement? —Yes, I am sure there is. 14. Could you suggest any improvements that could be made even now? —No, I do not think so. 15. You have never had any experience with blowers or exhaust? —No, I know nothing of them. I understand a little of natural ventilation. 16. The Chairman.] Have you had any experience of artificial ventilation? —Yes, but very little. I worked with the old hand-fan, with a little boy turning it all the time; but I have no experience of up-to-date appliances. 17. What is your experience of the dust nuisance? Can you offer any suggestions in regard to it? —Well, all 1 know is that a wet place is preferable to a dry place. You are ,not so susceptible when working in wet places. 18. Mr. Parry.] Have you had any experience of working in hot places? —Yes, I have worked for years in hot places. 19. What effect has it had upon you?—lt is the sudden changes which have caused this disease. I have been in " Siberia " one moment, in " boiling-down " another, only a few feet away. 20. You think you have contracted this disease coming from a hot place into a cold place?— Yes; the sudden changes, together with dust, have caused the complaint 21. When the temperature rises to a certain point do you think the shift should be reduced to six hours?—ln some of the places where I have been I would not like to work for even six hours. 22. Most of your work was in dry places? —Yes. 23. Do you think, Mr. Bird, in the event of a place being very hot, that the hours should be reduced to six? —Yes, certainly. 24. Of course, you Jjhink that every effort should be made to better the conditions of the miners and prevent the spread of such a disease as yours?— Yes; I would like to leave the world better than I found it. 25. Mr. Cochrane.] Have you done any work with rock-drills, Mr. Bird?—No, sir. 26. Mr. Reed.] You have not worked for the last four years? —Yes, tributing in the Moanataiari Mine. 27. Are the conditions objectionable there now?—No; the place is good enough where I worked. 28. Have you any complaints to make about the conditions in the Moanataiari Mine?— None whatever.

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Thames Courthouse. —16th August, 1911. Alexander Whitley sworn and examined. (No. 9.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Whitley?—My present occupation is that of a farmer. I was, however, Inspector of Mines for the West Coast, Nelson, and Marlborough Districts for three years up till the end of May last. 2. What mining experience have you had? Over how many years does your mining experience extend? —Twenty-six years. 3. What certificates do you hold? —A first-class gold-mine manager's certificate. 4. What working experience have you had in addition to your term as Inspector of Mines? — I gained my experience in Queensland, Western Australia, and New Zealand. 5. Which New Zealand mines have you worked in?—At the Thames, in the KuranuiCaledonian, Waiotahi, Moanataiari, Scandinavian (which is not working at present), and the Waitangi; the Martha at Waihi; and also at Preservation Inlet and Collingwood. 6. Upon which matters do you wish to inform the Commission? —I am prepared to answer any question which may be put to me. 7. With regard to ventilation, Mr. Whitley, what is your opinion of natural as against artificial ventilation, and which kind of artificial ventilation do you prefer? —Natural ventilation is very satisfactory in some places; where you have two outlets you can get very good results. Sometimes, however, you require to assist it with mechanical ventilation. 8. Where you have to use artificial ventilation, which do you prefer?— Where you have but one outlet I prefer to use a blower. Where you have two outlets the exhaust is the better, in my opinion. Where you have to force the air through the workings with a high pressure the blower is the best, as you can only work the exhaust fan with a limited pressure without injuring it. 9. What are the relative costs of the two methods, both for installing and for working?— That would depend on the quantity of air required to be delivered at the working-faces. Where you have two outlets to the surface you could work the exhaust cheaper than the blower. 10. Have you any information as to the use of both methods together? —Of course, one would assist the other; but I think the better way would be to work with a sufficiently high pressure to deliver the required quantity of air by one method. 11. You think an efficient blower would be better than using both together?— Yes, provided it was large enough. 12. What is your opinion in regard to sanitary arrangements—in regard to the necessity for sanitary arrangements in mines? —I think all mines working any distance from the surface should have sanitary appliances installed. 13. And for their use to be made compulsory?— Yes, it should be compulsory upon the men to use them, to assist the management and keep the mines clean. Some men are naturally careless, and will not assist to improve their conditions unless it is made compulsory. 14. With regard to baths and change-houses, what is your experience?—l have seen baths installed at the West Coast gold-mines, but they are very seldom used. 15. And in coal-mines? —It would be advisable to have them, because the work is dirtier than in gold-mines. 16. Have you had any experience of accidents? —Yes, of winding accidents, and also those caused by explosions and falls of ground. 17. Have you anything to suggest with a view to minimizing the risk of accidents or reducing their number ?—To prevent accidents from falls of ground there should always be plenty of timber available for the men, but a great deal depends upon the men themselves; they should be made to take great care always and see that their working-places are quite safe. 18. And what is your opinion in regard to firing? —Where machines are being used for boring the face, men should not be permitted to fire more than six holes by hand. If any more require to be fired a battery should be used. If they were fired by hand probably the shot in the first hole spitted would go off before the others were spitted. 19. Have you any information as to the necessity for manholes in which the men could take refuge when blasting?—lt would be desirable to have them in long, straight tunnels. 20. What distance from the face would you fix as a maximum? —Say, not more than 500 ft. A man could get back that distance. 21. Would you also fix a minimum? —About. 200 ft. 22. Mr. Cochrane.] With regard to the question of blowers and exhaust fans, you have had experience of these, Mr. Whitley? —Yes. 23. Then, if you had an exhaust fan, with good airways, and altered your arrangements to use a blower, can you tell us if there would be much difference in the total circulation I—l1 —I think you would have to work at a higher pressure to get the same result. 24. Would there be much difference in the total circulation of air?— Not a great deal of difference. 25. Can a blower work at a very much higher pressure than an exhaust fan?— Yes. 26. Do you think the quantity of air at present prescribed by statute is sufficient? —It depends on the amount of noxious gases given off; it might be sufficient for some places, but insufficient in others. 27. In that case would you favour a percentage standard of oxygen as the minimum for a working-face I—Yes.1 —Yes. 28. What should that be? —Not less than 19 per cent. 29. Then, as to vitiated air, what would you favour as a standard for carbonic dioxide?— Not more than 125 per cent.

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30. Would you also favour a wet-bulb maximum temperature?—l think the temperature should be kept within reasonable limits. It would hardly be practicable, however, to fix a wet-bulb temperature. 31. Why? —You might have some considerable trouble with it. Suppose you had a work that would only take a limited time, and you were pushing it on, it would hardly be necessary to fix the temperature. I have known cases like that. 32. With a high underground temperature where ventilation could not be maintained except at enormous expense? —Yes. 33. How would you meet such cases? —It should be left to the discretion of the Inspector. 34. Then, you favour the exhaust system by winzes? —Yes; where there are two outlets to the surface the exhaust is the best. 35. Would you make it compulsory to have two winzes for that purpose?— Yes, where the air was very bad —at the Thames, for instance, where a good deal of gas is given off. 36. In such cases as the Thames Deep Levels would you favour a connection by another shaft? —Yes. 37. Do you know of any practical means of carrying that out? —Well, the first connection i would make would be with the Saxon shaft. That work should be pushed on. 38. The distance between the workings is about 500 ft., is it not?— Yes; that connection should be made as soon as possible. The crosscut is the principal undertaking in hand at the present time, and should be pushed on. If the air is vitiated in the level all other works should be stopped until the crosscut is finished. 39. Now, we have to deal with the practical side of the question. I know nothing as to the finance of these companies, but if the Saxon Company have no means of deepening the shaft how should it be done? —They must find the means to do it; it has to be done, and should be done as quickly as possible. 40. Do you think it falls within the domain of the Government subsidy? —I do not know. The Government might assist them in this matter, as it would benefit the whole community, and the Government indirectly, as well as the different companies. 41. How would you provide for the ventilation —for practically outside ventilation I— You would require to have doors and brattice. 42. There are places that are beyond the active circulation of the air-current: would you have any provision made for ventilating those places?— Yes, they should be ventilated by doors and brattice. 43. Then, as to ventilation of the rises, are they usually badly ventilated or well ventilated? — They are generally warmer than the levels —in fact, the worst places in the mine. 44. What would you recommend in regard to them? —Ihey should be centred in some way. 45. Would you have the box system, or the logging in the middle? —I have seen both ways used, and they have been satisfactory. 46. W T ould you recommend that centring be made compulsory? —Yes. 47. Would you start centring as soon as they started rising?— Yes, that should be made compulsory. 48. In regard to ends, would you have them a given distance ahead of the air-current? —The pipes should be kept up as close as possible to the face. 49. But if there are no pipes?— They should have some means of conveying the air into the face. 50. Would you fix the distance beyond which they should not go without having pipes?—l would not state any distance. 51. Then, as to blasting by means of batteries, do you recommend that? —Where they are firing in the face there should be batteries used if more than six holes are to be fired. 52. In all cases?— Yes. 53. You consider the present method of testing the cages sufficient?—l do not know exactly what method they are using here now, but all cages should be tested at regular intervals with loaded trucks. 54. I suppose you have frequently seen sprays used with rock-drills? —Yes. 55. Have you found any difficulty in getting the men to use them?— Yes, at times. Some of the men seem to be very careless, and do not like the water. I have found when they have been rising that they complained that it made things greasy, and there was a danger of them falling down the rise. They would sooner bore dry. 56. Mr. Beed.~\ In either Queensland or West Australia have you found as many ventilatingfans in operation as there are in New Zealand?—No, not when I was working there; but I do not know what the conditions are now. 57. Of late years has the number of fans in quartz-mines greatly increased in New Zealand ? —Not to a very great extent. 58. Are you aware of any countries in which a fixed standard of temperature is in force? — Yes, in Victoria and Western Australia. 59. Do you remember the standard temperature in Victoria? —83° by the wet-bulb thermometer. 60. May that temperature be exceeded at any time? —Yes, in certain cases, on the recommendation of the Inspector of Mines. It is left to him. 61. On such occasions do you know what the Inspector may have the power to do in the way of reducing the hours of labour ?—Yes, he could reduce the hours to whatever he thought reasonable. 62. In the State of Western Australia what is the fixed standard? —87° dry and 80° wet. 63. Is there any time after blasting in which that temperature may be exceeded?— Yes, thirty minutes after blasting.

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64. In the case of a test for air which is considered to be suitable for men to work in under ordinary conditions, what standard would you prefer ?—I would prefer that laid down by the Royal Commission on Mines in their report, where they state that the air should not contain less than 19 per cent, of oxygen or more than 1"25 per cent, of C0 2 . [Witness quoted from page 76 of Royal Commission on Mines' Second Report, dated July, 1909, as follows : " We also think that any air found by analysis to contain less than 19 per cent, of oxygen, or more than 1J per cent, of carbon-dioxide, should be regarded as below this standard. Such a standard would rightly be regarded as unduly lax if the impurities in the air were derived largely from respiration, or lights, or blasting, and were thus liable to be accompanied by other vitiation of a serious kind. The available evidence shows, however, that in collieries and other mines in Great Britain the impurities are derived almost solely from mineral sources. There thus seems to be no good reason for a stricter standard, and we believe that the standard which we recommend is one which would generally be regarded as reasonable by those familiar with mining conditions in this country. We think that this standard should apply in the same way, and be subject to the same exceptions as the standard for firedamp. In connection with the subject of ventilation we have also considered the question whether any standard should be prescribed as regards the temperature at which ordinary work may be carried on. The influence of high temperatures on men is intimately dependent on the moisture in the air, and also on its motion; for the greater the dryness of air, and the greater its motion, the more rapidly does warm air carry off the heat of the body and thus neutralize the ill effect of the heat. The existing evidence indicates that in still and saturated air continuous hard work is practically impossible at temperatures exceeding about 80° Fahr., even when men are stripped to the waist, and that when the air-temperature is higher than this the result is the same if the wet-bulb temperature rises above 80°. A temperature of 100° or 110°, with the air so dry that the wet-bulb temperature is only 80°, is thus no worse than air completely saturated with moisture at 80°. In other words, it is the wet-bulb temperature, and not the actual temperatures of the air, that matters to a man when the air-temperature is high. In moving air, however, a somewhat higher wet-bulb temperature can be borne than in still air. At wet-bulb temperatures exceeding about 80° the amount of continuous work which a man is capable of doing without serious rise of body temperature rapidly falls off, and becomes practically nothing at 90° wet bulb. The available information seems to indicate that where the heat in a mine is excessive miners readily adapt themselves to the adverse condition by either doing less work or by only working intermittently, with periods of rest in cooler air. The rate of pay has, of course, to be correspondingly adjusted. Cases of heat-stroke or other actual injury from heat seem to be almost unknown among miners. The only case which has been brought to our notice is that of the Yorkshire miner, John Welsby, who, while wearing a rescue apparatus, was disabled by heatstroke, and lost his life in a brave attempt to reach a number of men who had been cut oft' in the recent fire at Hamstead Colliery. On the whole, we do not think that any good object would be served by prescribing a limit of wet-bulb temperature for the carrying-on of work in mines. We wish, however, to take this opportunity of pointing out the great importance of studying the causes of excessive heat and moisture in mines, and so arranging the ventilation as to keep the wet-bulb temperature within reasonable limits and ensure a good air-current at the working-face." That report is signed by Monkswell, Lindsay Wood, Henry Cunynghame, W. Abraham, Fred. L. Davis, Enoch Edwards, Thomas Ratclifie Ellis, J. S. Haldane, Robt. Smillie.] 65. The Ghairman.~\ You say you agree with that opinion?— Yes. 66. Mr. Reed.] In making your inspections of mines would you consider it necessary to take samples of the air in bottles? —Yes. 67. For the purpose of determining the quality? —Yes. 68. Would you consider a fixed quantity, such as 100 or 150 cubic feet of air per man per minute, somewhat of a rule-of-thumb standard? —Yes; it would not be enough in some cases, and too much in others. 69. The Chairman.] Can you suggest a more reliable standard?— You would have to be guided by the analysis of the air. 70. Yes, but for working purposes ?—No, I could not suggest any standard which would be satisfactory always. 71. Mr. Seed.] Are you aware that the standard of temperature fixed in the coal-mines of Australia was determined for the removal of firedamp and not for the removal of carbon-dioxide? —Yes, it is so. 72. Does firedamp exist in these metalliferous mines? —Not at the Thames, but at Reefton it has been known to exist. 73. You stated that under exceptional circumstances, such as dead-ends or with hot rocks such as are found here, and where a short distance has to be driven, you thought a fixed standard of temperature would be unfair? —Yes, I think it should be left to the Inspector to decide in those cases. 74. Do you know the Queen of Beauty shaft here?— Yes. 75. Are you aware that there are two compartments in which the cages operate?— Yes. 76. If it were proposed to use one of these compartments as a downcast, and the other as an upcast, would you regard such a proposal as ridiculous? —I certainly think it would not be a good idea; the working-cages would interfere considerably with the ventilation. 77. Supposing you put a fan at the top of one of these compartments, and brattice along the whole length to the Deep Level crosscut, do you think you could get adequate ventilation with the winding-shaft blocked with cages? —No, I do not think so. 78. Do you think it is possible to put another air-pipe of adequate dimensions down the Queen of Beauty shaft? —I do not know. All the room may be taken up by the present air-pipe and pumping- app ar atus.

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79. In driving the deep-level crosscut is it reasonable to suppose that the carbon-dixode will appear mostly in the face? —Yes. 80. Is it, then, not good practice to blow strong pure air on that face to remove the noxious gas?— That would be my opinion. 81. Which is the best method for putting pure air into the face?— The blower. 82. Would an exhaust fan drag carbon-dioxide up to the men at the face?— Yes, it would have that effect. 83. Under the existing conditions of the Deep Level crosscut, with one shaft only, do .you think the system of ventilation by a blower at present adopted can be improved ? —No, the system is the best. 84. The Chairman.] How do you propose, then, Mr. Whitley, to get more air?—By driving the blower at a greater speed—by working it to its full capacity 85. Mr. Reed.] Can you tell us approximately to what water-gauge a blower can be driven? —About 5 in.; but lam not sure. 86. You had an extensive experience on the Inangahua Goldfields? —Yes. 87. Have you had occasion to complain of the men neglecting to use the sanitary arrangements provided there?— Yes, on several occasions. 88. Are suitable batns provided at the Keefton mines? —Yes, by the Blackwater Company; but many of the men do not use them. 89. Who bears the cost of those baths? —The company, entirely. 90. As regards winding-engine drivers when they are preparing for their certificates, do you think it is fair to the men to permit these uncertificated learners to practice winding while men are in the cage?—No, I do not think they should be allowed to do it. 91. Have you known of any fatal accidents occurring as the result of that practice?— Yes, one occurred at Reef ton while I was there. 92. How would you suggest that these learners should practice? —By hoisting material, bailing water, and so on. 93. In the case of an Inspector prosecuting a manager or employee of the mine, what is the present tribunal? —The Warden and two assessors, who must be first-class certificated minemanagers, appointed by the Warden. 94. In Western Australia, are you aware that the Warden has power to summarily deal with such cases?— Yes. 95. Now, as an ex-Inspector, manager, and miner, which do you think the justest tribunal for the men?—l think it should be left to the Warden himself. 96. With summary jurisdiction?— Yes. 97. The Chairman.] Do you mean that you would alter the tribunal from a Warden and assessors to a Warden only, with summary jurisdiction to determine the question himself? —Yes. 98. Mr. Reed.] Are you aware that uncertificated men are practically managing several mines in New Zealand? —Yes, that is so. 99. Are you aware that the Mining Act provides that a mine of certain magnitude shall be managed only by a first-class certificated man ?—Yes. 100. Both surface and underground operations?— The whole of the mine and surface equipment should be under the control of a certificated mine-manager. 101. But is it not a fact that the battery superintendent controls the battery-work under the direction of the mine-manager ? —They generally work together. , 102. Are you aware of cases where these certificated managers, when under a superintendent, have little or nothing to do with the surface arrangement at all? —Yes, I do know of such cases. 103. Do you consider that this system, while technically complying with the requirements of the Act, is practically and substantially an exasion of the law?— Yes, I do, because the manager has to do as he is told, otherwise he would have to leave. 104. So that he is practically a dummy?— Yes, that is so. 105. In connection with a misfire in a face, what is the statutory time which must be allowed to elapse before a man may return? —Three hours. 106. Do you consider that time excessive? —No, it is not excessive. 107. What is the longest time for which you have known a shot to hang fire and then explode? —I cannot say; but not that length of time. 108. Have you heard of one hanging fire for half an hour? —No, they do not, as a rule. 109. Would it not be reasonable to limit it to one hour instead of three? —I believe they should take every precaution. It might be reduced a, little, but I believe in giving shots plenty of time. I would not send a man back to the hole under the prescribed time. 110. In connection with these small mines at the Thames, worked from adit levels where natural ventilation is employed and a large current of air may be detected by the anemometer, and where the air is reasonably good, would you in these cases compel such small mines to install mechanical ventilation? —If the air was not up to the standard I would. 111. Would that result in shutting up a number of these mines? —It may do so, but it would be better for the men employed if they were closed. 112. While Inspector of Mines at Reef ton did you have many complaints as to bad ventilation from the men I —Not from the men themselves, but at times from the workmen's inspectors. There were not a great many complaints on the West Coast, as the air is fairly good there. 113. Did you have any complaints about the non-provision of sanitary arrangements?— Yes. from the workmen's inspectors. 114. And as regards the non-provision of bath-houses?— No. 115. Did you take immediate action to have the complaints you referred to remedied?— Yes, in every case where I found the complaint to be well grounded.

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116. Did you at times take legal proceedings against the management in regard to them? — No, not against the management; but I took action against the engine-driver when a man was killed. 117. Then you got the managers to comply with your requests without taking legal proceedings?— Yes, they were always willing to do so. 118. Was the action against the engine-driver heard before assessors and a Magistrate?— Yes. 119. Although the man was killed you failed to get a conviction ?•»—Yes. 120. The Chairman.] I notice, in looking at the Act, that the time fixed for misfires is three hours : you said four ?—ls that so ? I thought it was four. 121. What do you say as regards reducing it below three? —I would keep it at three. 122. Mr. Dowgray.~\ Have you had any experience of mining in the Old Country?—No, none at all. 123. So you are not in a position to judge, from the evidence and recommendation of that report, whether the standard would be applicable to the mines in this country?—lt would be, I think. 124. But you had no experience in those mines? —No. 125. Dees it not strike you that the recommendation in that report of the Royal Commission on mines in the Old Country was made with the idea of preventing the mines from closing down? —No. 126. The Chairman.] Does it show that reason in the report?—No, I do not think so; I do not know what the idea was. 127. Mr Bowgray.] Can you say, Mr. Whitley, whether that report conveys to you, in its recommendation to reduce the number of hours, that their idea was to prevent the mines from closing down I —lt may have been so. 128. Does it not refer to men working in high temperatures only intermittently?— Yes. 129. The Chairman.'] What do you infer from that? —Probably the idea was not to close down the mines. 130. Mr. Bowgray .] On reviewing that portion of the report you think that may be so? —I would not say it was their idea, but you might infer it from that. 131. In connection with 100 cubic feet of air per man per minute required in gold-mines, that means a minimum?— Yes. 132. In answer to Mr. Reed you did not say that there should be a minimum, but that it should be left to the Inspector ?—No, I did not say that. I think that they should have not less than 100 cubic feet of air per man per minute. It ought to be up to that standard. 133. The reason, then, I take it, that coal-mines are required to have 50 cubic feet more than gold-mines is on account of the presence of firedamp?— Yes. 134. In reply to Mr. Reed's question in connection with the Queen of Beauty shaft you said that in your opinion it was not practicable to utilize a shaft with a cage in it as an upcast?— The cages working in the shaft would affect the ventilation. It would not give satisfactory results. 135. There are two compartments in the shaft, one with a cage going down and the other with the cage coming up. If they were bratticed down the centre would that not serve as an effective method? —For the shaft, but not for the drive. It would not be as good as two shafts to the surface. 136. But there would be two outlets? —Still, they would not be as good as two independent shafts. 137. Would they be too close together? —That would not be the trouble. The cages would be interfering with the ventilation. 138. But would your exhaust road from the fan not be below the surface? —Yes, of course it would. 139. There is a pumping-shaft in the Queen of Beauty : could it not be utilized for ventilation purposes by means of bratticing?—Well, it might be blocked with columns, and you might not be able to get much air. If there were sufficient air it could be worked. 140. Would it be better than the blower ? —No, I believe in the blower. 141. The Chairman.] Mr. Reed said that the blower is putting the air into the face better than an exhaust. Would it ventilate the whole mine better than an exhaust?— Yes, if it had sufficient capacity to dilute the gas that was given off. 142. Mr. Bowgray.] When would you consider a mine adequately ventilated? —There would require to be sufficient good air in every working-face, trucking-road, and every other part of the mine. It would have to be up to the standard. 143. Otherwise it would not be properly ventilated? —No. 144. Supposing the air became fouled in the return by sudden outbursts of gas, how would the men get from the face? —They would have to stop there until that gas was diluted. 145. Where the return air was so vitiated it would not be properly ventilated?— No. 146. Mr. Reed informed you that the water-pressure in the Queen of Beauty shaft was 3f in., and you said they could work it up to 5 in. ?—Yes. 147. When you were at Reefton were there sprays used in all the mines there?—No, not when I went there, but they were before I left. 148. Did you compel the companies, on your own initiative, to provide sprays?— Yes. 149. In connection with the dry bulb and the quality of the air in the working-face, what should be the difference between the wet and dry bulb ?—I would get as big a difference as I could. 150. But if there is no difference? —When the wet bulb exceeds 80° and the air is saturated the men should not be asked to work there all the time —only intermittently. 151. Mr. Parry.] Have you had a good deal of experience in testing temperatures?— Yes. 152. You say that it is necessary to have change-houses and baths? —Yes, it is necessary for the men to use them if they want to.

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153. Do you think it would be more healthy for the men? —Yes, if they would use them. 154. You also think it necessary to have sanitary appliances?— Yes, where they are working any distance from the surface. 155. You have worked in Waihi? —Yes, a good many years ago., 156. What is your opinion as to the fixing of a standard height for stopes?—They should not be more than 8 ft. 157. Are you of opinion that that should be provided in the Act? —Yes. 158. What is your opinion of open cages?—lhere should be a gate provided on all cages which are used by the men —a movable gate which could be taken off for trucks. For use when men are travelling they have a drop-bar in most of the Reefton mines. I think that is necessary. 159. Do you think men are running a risk in riding on open cages?— Yes, in a frame-set shaft. 160. Do you think the men are running a great risk in descending a shaft with only one engine-driver and no assistant ?—No, I have never heard of any accident happening in that way — not through sickness or fainting. 161. Have you ever heard of any such accident occurring in the Old Country?—l have never read of one. 162. Did it ever occur to you that the men were running a risk? —No. 163. With eight men in the cage, do you not think that is a great deal to be trusted in one man's hands? —I do not know. If an engine-driver is reliable and healthy Ido not think there is any risk. 164. Do you think that engine-drivers should submit themselves to examinations for eyesight and health periodically? —Yes, it would be a good thing. 165. But it would not solve the whole problem? —A man might be in good health to-day an-d unfit to-morrow. 166. At the Reefton mines, is it not a fact that the workmen's inspector called the men out from their work?—No, he did not. 167. Do you say it is not true?—lt is not true. I stopped the men from working, if that is what you are alluding to. 168 You say that on the West Coast the men do not use the bath-houses? —Yes, only a few of them do. 169. That is near Reefton? —Yes, at the Blackwater Mine. 170. At what distance are they living from the mine?—At no great distance. They would sooner go home than change at the mine. 171. Have they hot water there? —Yes. 172. And drying-apparatus?— Yes, hot pipes. 173. In regard to accidents, you sa,y that plenty of good timber should be supplied by the companies?— Yes, it should always be available. 174. Have you ever heard complaints from the workmen that there was a shortage of timber when the company has considered that the men did not require the timber? —No; at Reefton there was plenty of timber. 175. Did they work stoping on wages or contract I—All stoping is on wages. Driving, sinking, and rising is on contract principally. 176. Yon say that you favour the quality standard for air rather than the quantity one?— Yes. 177. Do you not think that would cause confusion between the men and the company?—l do not think so. 178. Seeing that the Mining Inspector is not stationed at every mining place, who is going to redress the matter? —Well, the Inspector makes periodical tests, and if there was any dispute he would be always willing to <xo. 179. The Chairman.] Supposing he is not available, the conditions change very rapidly? — Well, 1 think the workmen's inspector and the manager could take samples together, and that would get over the difficulty. The samples could be sent along to the Government Analyst, but if they wanted them done quickly the analysis could be made at the local school of mines. 180. Mr. Parry.] And you consider that the men should continue to work till the result was known?—lf the air was very bad —if the candle burnt dimly—the men should be taken out of the mine. 181. The Chairman.] But perhaps the air might clear before you got the samples?— The workmen's inspector is always handy. 182. Mr. Parry.] Do you believe in the idea of having workmen's inspectors?— Yes, they often hear of matters which require attention, but of which the Inspector of Mines would not hear. He advises the Inspector of Mines of the complaint, and it is the Inspector's duty to see the matter put right if the complaint is well grounded. 183. You say that the manager and the workmen's inspector should take the sample?— Yes. 184. Would that not put the workmen to a great deal of expense to be called away at any time for the purpose?—No, the workmen's inspector is always about, 185. Seeing that h<? inspects the mines once a month, and that the men have to pay him for making that inspection, is it not hard on them, besides putting more work on the workmen's inspector ?—I do not think he is overworked at the present time. It should be part of his duties. 186. But it is the payment we are considering : do you not think it would be hard on the men? —No, 1 think the workmen should contribute towards the payment of their own inspectors. 187. The whole sum? —Yes. 188. You do not think that would cause confusion between the workmen and the employers?— I do not think there would be any confusion about it. 189. And you also approve of the recommendation in the report of the British Commission on Mines? —Yes.

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190. The whcle of that recommendation?— Yes. 191. And you do not think that, as the report says, any good would be done by fixing a standard temperature?—No, I think it should be left to the Inspector of Mines. 192. Would that not also cause confusion if the Inspector were not stationed at that particular place I— -Well, the temperatures are not likely to go up in such a short period that the Inspector could not get there to take them. 193. Supposing the Mining Inspector were away at Hikurangi, and he was required at Huntly, how long would the men be working under those conditions before he could get there? — I do not think the temperature would rise so rapidly. 194. I suppose you are conversant with the temperature in the mines here I —l do not know that I am. 195. Would you be surprised to hear that the temperature exceeded 80° in the drive here? — Perhaps it does, but it has not risen so quickly. It might take a week. Efforts should be made by the management to reduce the temperature. The better the conditions are for the men the better the results the company will receive from the men. 196. Do you think that where development-work is being carried on it is almost impossible to get efficient ventilation ?—They could get sufficient ventilation if they had the appliances. 197. Do )ou think it is not so easy to get ventilation? —No, it is not. 198. That report which you quoted also says that miners readily adapt themselves to the heat i —lhat is so. 199. What does that mean? —It means that the men require to have a spell. They cannot work continuously in places where high temperatures are found. 200. Have the men themselves the right to regulate that time? —Well, the management have the regulation of the time, but I think the management give way to a certain extent in regard to these hot places. They do not expect the men to do as much. 201. Do you think that is done? —I think it is done in some cases. 202. Would you provide for those cases where it is not done? —The only way would be to limit the number of hours for hot places. 203. Under these conditions, then, you think that a standard should be fixed? —The hours should be limited where the temperature exceeds 80° by the wet bulb. 204. You said, in answer to Mr. Reed, that the mine-managers are under the control of the superintendents, and if they do not do what is required of them they have to get out of it? —Yes. 205. And you think that the manager should be protected by law in this matter? —Yes, I think he should. 206. And do you not also think it is reasonable to ask that the men should be protected by law in the matter of temperature?— Certainly, they should not be asked to work long shifts in these very hot places. 207. You have not been down the Deep Levels shaft? —No. 208. The temperature is 76° by both bulbs at the discharge, and at the intake on the surface it is 5155° : can you tell us what is the cause of it going up so high in transmission?—l do not know where it is getting the moisture; it should not be as high as that. 209. Can you give us any reason why both bulbs should read the same? The air increases by 25° in transmission? —It may become heated in the pipes. The temperature gets greater as you go down, but Ido not know where it would get that moisture. If there is any moisture in the pipe that would account for it. 210. Have you taken the temperature of rock?— No. 211. In the event of a rock-temperature being 76°, would you also expect the air to register 76°?— Yes, I should think it would have that effect. 212. Is it Jikely that the air should have the same temperature as the rock? —Well, the rock would have the effect of heating the air and bringing it up to the same temperature. 213. In the event of the rock-temperature being 90° and the temperature of the air 90° also, with 5,000 cubic feet of air per minute, would it be necessary then to reduce the air-tempernture? —Do you mean that the air delivered at the end of the pipe was 90°? 214. What would be necessary to reduce the temperature of that air? —I do not know, unless you have water or ice put down for cooling the air. 215. Therefore it would remain heated with even 5,000 ft. of air? —Yes, it would be heated to the same temperature as the rock if there was no circulation. If there were plenty of air coming out and plenty of circulation the rock would not heat it. By increasing the circulation the heat would be overcome. 216. If there were 10,000 ft. of air there? —If you were pumping in 10,000 ft. of air of low temperature the air would not be heated. 217. Seeing that the rock-temperature plays an important part in the temperature of the air-current, then the only hope you have of reducing the air is by a larger current?— Yes. 218. AVell, in those hot places where it is impossible to get a large current of air to reduce the temperature, then you would suggest that a standard temperature be fixed ?—I would not suggest any standard temperature. It would depend on how long the work was likely to take. If it was an urgent work they should be allowed to work shorter hours until it was carried through. 219. Is that the only impediment to the fixing of a standard heat? —Yes; in cases like that they should be allowed to work on six-hour shifts at a higher temperature. 220. And there should be a standard heat fixed for the work? —I think, when both bulbs are reading 80°, then it should be a six-hour place. 221. Therefore you would suggest that a standard temperature be fixed for a six-hour place? —Yes; it should not exceed 80°. 222. You say the temperature increases as you go down ?—Yes.

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223. Would you be surprised to near that there is a difference in the temperature of in a tunnel on the surface? —Yes, but you find that here in the Moanataiari tunnel. 224. So that it is not altogether certain that the air does increase in temperature with depth ? —Well, you have the same conditions in that tunnel as in a drive as to depth—you are going into the hill. 225. The Chairman.] You have the ground overhead? —Yes, that is so. 226. Mr. Parry.] Of course, the temperature taken outside is the temperature of the air, but the temperature inside is the rock-temperature : therefore that proves that the rocks play an important part in heating the air ?—Yes. 227. What do you think is the cause of less accidents happening here at the Thames as compared with the number at Waihi and other places?— Possibly more care is exercised here; perhaps, too, they are not carrying their stopes so high. 228. What is the necessity, in your opinion, for having pawls and cogs on windlasses?—l think they should be all provided with pawls and cogs. There have been several accidents because of the absence of pawls when pulling up a bucket. 229. Do you consider mining a healthy occupation? —No, it is not healthy under the best conditions. 230. It is far healthier working on the surface?— Yes. 231. In your experience have you heard many complaints as to the condition of the workmen? —Yes. 232. What is the most important complaint you have heard from the men? —Well, they generally get very short in the wind —their lungs get affected. 233. And do they complain of indigestion?— Yes, they sometimes get attacks of indigestion. 234. What is your opinion, Mr. Whitley, about the use of bag or paper tamping? —I am not in favour of it. 235. The Chairman.'] Do you think it should be prohibited? —Yes. 236. Mr. Cochrane.] There is a point I wish to clear up as to misfires. The present Act provides for an absence from a misfire of how many hours?— Three. 237. Do you think that conduces to the Act being broken? Do you think that a shorter period would afford sufficient safety? —I think they should give it the three hours. 238. Then, as to the blower in tfie low level, I think you said that you preferred it to the exhaust fan ? —Yes, where there is only one outlet. 239. But if there were a connection with the Saxon shaft would you prefer an exhaust?— Yes. 240. Then, as to superintendents interfering with the managers, do you think that should be prevented by law ?—Yes. 241. Would you also make similar provision to prevent the interference by boards of directors? —Yes, I think so. For the safety of the miners the mine should be under the sole control of the certificated manager. 242. The Chairman.] Do you go so far as to say that the manager should go where he likes in his mining operations? —No. 243. Mr. Cochrane.] But as to the safety and health of the miners? —Yes. 244. Mr. Reed.] As regards the water-gauge at the Queen of Beauty blower, do you know for certain the maximum to which the gauge could work?— No. 245. You stated 5 in. : was that simply a guess? —Yes, it might be worked to more than that. 246. If you were informed that it could work to 17 in. would you think that very much higher than would be obtainable with a fan?— Very much higher. 247. As regards the test for impure places, would the candle burning dimly be sufficient guide for the workmen's inspector and the management that the air in that place was vitiated? —Yes, that would be sufficient indication that the air was vitiated. 248. So that, pending the result of the analysis of the air, would you consider a dimly burning candle a reasonable test upon which to withdraw the men ? —Yes. 249. Under these circumstances, would there be any unnecessary delay to the workmen waiting , for the results of the analysis ?—No; they could be employed in another place where there was good air. 250. As regards temperature, would you regard 80° wet and 86° dry as a six-hour place 1No, the air would be much drier there. 251. Then, it is a matter of saturation purely?— Yes. 252. As regards the pipe leading from the surface down to the 1,000 ft. level at the Queen of Beauty, would you think it likely that condensation would occur outside the cold pipe in the shaft ?—lt probably would. 253. The air being cooler in the pipe than outside?— Yes. 254. So that if the cold air coming into the mine through the pipe were to pass through a portion of the drive with hot air it would be condensed ?—Yes, it would have that effect. 255. Would that condensation affect the wet-bulb temperature of the air outside the pipe? —Yes . 256. Consequently, then, would it be unreasonable to suppose that 76° wet and dry could be regarded as the temperature of the air issuing from the pipe?— Yes. 257. The Chairman.] Where those conditions obtained, would it be an effective system of ventilation if the pipe has to pass through air that raises the temperature to such an extent?-— Well, you would be delivering air at a fairly low temperature, but it would be saturated. 258. Is the air so discharged effective over the whole of the mine? —That is the only way you can ventilate it. 259. Mr. Eeed.] To overcome that saturation from condensation would you increase the quantity of air passing through the pipe? —Yes, that would be the best way of overcoming it.

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260. By running the blower faster ?—Yes. 261. The Chairman.] Would you consider it necessary to increase the quantity of air so as to alter that condition ?—Yes. 262. Mr. Seed.] Mr. Parry has referred to a number of mines having a temperature exceeding 80° dry, but no wet-bulb temperature was stated. Would you regard a mine having a temperature exceeding 80° dry as inadequately ventilated? —No; 80° dry is not an excessive temperature, but 80° wet would be excessive. 263. For the safety of the men you would recommend that all winding-engine drivers should be periodically and frequently examined for defective eyesight and to determine whether they are subject to fits? —Yes. 264. Should they be required to obtain a medical certificate? —Yes. 265. At whose expense?—At the companies' expense. 266. Would you like to see such a provision put into the regulations?— Yes, it would be a safeguard. 267. Mr. Parry.] As regards the temperature, you say it is a matter of saturation only. Would you sooner work in a temperature of 84°, say, on the surface or at the same temperature underground? —It depends upon the wet-bulb reading. 268. We will take the dry-bulb reading : would you sooner work in the same temperature dry on the surface? —If I had the same quantity of air there would be no difference. 269. I ask you, Mr. Whitley, would you prefer to work underground at the same temperature? —I always prefer working on the surface if I can do so —any man would. 270. Because it is more healthy? —Yes. 271. Have you ever had complaints from men working in hot places as to their condition when the temperature has been a dry one but high?—No; the temperatures have generally been humid when complaints have been made. 272. In the event of the temperature being 82° wet and 86° dry, would you consider that a six-hour place?—No, I would not pass that as a six-hour place. 273. And you really think there should be n.o limit to the dry-bulb temperature?— Yes. 274. The Chairman.] To what extent would you permit the dry-bulb temperature to go?— 1 would follow the English Royal Commission report, which says that a temperature of 100° or 110° with the air so dry that the wet-bulb temperature is only 80° is no worse than air completely saturated with moisture at 80°. With air as bad as that it should be a six-hour place. 275. Mr. Parry.] In the event of the wet-bulb temperature not reaching 80° and the dry-bulb going up to 100°, would you still consider it an eight-hour place?— Yes. 276. Do you think that some provision should be made for a six-hour place where the wet bulb showed between 86° and 90° and the dry bulb, say, only 70°? —No, I do not think that would warrant its being made a six-hour place. It should only be done when the two bulbs read high. 277. You say that you would sooner work in a temperature of 70° dry than in one of 90° wet? —No, I did not say that. 278. In the event of your being a wages-man, Mr. Whitley, and having the pick of places, which would you prefer, 70° dry or 90° wet?—l would take the place at 70° dry. You could work better there. 279. Would you prefer that place for the reason simply that you could work better there— because you could do more work for the company?— Yes. 280. The Chairman.] Would it be more unhealthy to work underground in a high temperature than on the surface? —Yes. 281. Mr. Parry.] Have you ever suffered any ill effects from working in a high temperature on the surface, as regards sleeping or taking your meals? —No. 282. What difference could be made in those hot places?— They should cool them down. 283. What provision should be made if they could not cool them down?— The men should work shorter hours. 284. Mr. Dowgray.] There is one point, Mr. Whitley, which is not quite clear. In reply to Mr. Reed and Mr. Parry you dealt with the question as to whether the candle is a good guide to show when a man should quit his working-place. Will you tell the Commission what is the percentage of CO S in which a candle would burn? —At 15 per cent, it would go out. 285. And with what percentage is it dangerous to human life?—lt would not kill a man at 15 per cent. 286. Would it be dangerous at 15 per cent. ?—Yes. 287. Is 3 per cent, not dangerous to life? —It might be in time. 288. And, according to you, a candle would'burn brightly with 3 per cent. ?—Yes. In my opinion it should not exceed 1 J per cent. 289. At what percentage would a candle be affected so as to show signs of the presence of the gas?—ln answer to that question I will quote to you Dr. Haldane's " Report on the Causes of Death in Colliery Explosions and Underground Fires " (1896). He gives the effect of CO 3 as this :—

Percentage present. Effect, on Man. Effect, on Man. Effect on Light Effect on Lights. ts. 1 3-5 .." 6 .. 10 15 25 Breathing deeper Marked panting Severe distress Partial loss of consciousness Final death . . | Still burns. • • i i> . . ,, . . i Extinguished.

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290. Does that indicate when a man would be affected?—lt would be at something over 10 per cent, before a man would feel it, but 15 per cent, before the candle would be extinguished. 291. At what percentage would the difference in the burning of the candle be first noticed 'IYou would notice it at 3 per cent. 292. Even according to that report the candle is not a reliable guide as to when a man should quit?—l think it is a very good guide, unless he can get an analysis of the air made. 293. Still, you admit that with even 3 per cent, it is dangerous to human life and yet the candle will still burn? —-Yes. 294. Could you not suggest any other test? —No, it is the only one 1 know of for CO 2 . 295. Do you consider a mine affected by carbon-dioxide gas should have a barometer?—-Yes, they ought to be compelled to have a barometer. 296. In quoting the effects of saturated air from that report do you agree with those opinions? Is that your own experience? —It is my own personal experience. I have noticed it myself. 297. As to the effect of 80° wet and 86° dry?— Yes. 298. Is it not a fact that when the temperature is high it is dustier? —Yes. 299. In a dry temperature, then, is the effect not the same as the wet temperature would have? —Well, it would have a bad effect upon their lungs. 300. Is that not one of the reasons for fixing a dry temperature also?—^Yes. 301. In connection with a blower, what is the maximum amount of air you could have delivered at a working-place by a blower as compared with an exhaust fan? —You will get far more from a blower, because you can work it at a higher pressure. 302. Mr. Parry.~j Do you think that a man working in a hot place is a better judge of the effects of the temperature than a person who analysed the air would be?— The men themselves are the best judges. , 303. Mr. Eeed.] Do you think the men themselves could tell the percentage of gas?—No, the men could not tell the amount of gas present. 304. Are you positive as to the lowest percentage of carbon-dioxide that would be indicated on the flame? —No, but I think it is 3. 305. Do you think per cent, would have a noticeable effect? —It would not be noticed very much. 306. With a given horse-power and a pipe of fixed dimensions, would a blower give as good ventilation as an exhaust fan I —The blower would be the better. 307. Under any conditions, with a given pressure?— Yes, where you have only one outlet to the surface. Alfred W. Sawyer sworn and examined. (No. 10.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Sawyer ? —A miner. 2. How long have you been mining ? —Forty years or thereabouts. 3. Where have you gained your experience ?—Practically all at the Thames. lam working generally contracting and tributing, but am working my own claim at the present time. 4. Have you had any experience of taking temperatures or testing air by instruments ? —None whatever. 5. What is your working rule for detecting the presence of gas ? —We principally use the candlelight, and trust to our own experience in the matter of breathing. 6. Do you notice the effect on the candle first or on your heart ? —On the heart. 7. Do you consider that the average miner of experience can tell by these two indications ? —Wei', we have done so for many years. 8. Do you think you have a reasonable and reliable workable rule in these two tests ?—Yes, a workable rule so far as our experience goes. 9. Have you any other matters you wish to lay before the Commission ?—-Yes, in regard to sanitation, ventilation, and accidents. 10. What is your general opinion as to natural ventilation as compared with artificial, and as to the different kinds of artificial ventilation ? —Natural ventilation, when you can get it, is the best; but if it is not available I prefer to use a fan. I have also used it driving a blower, but found that it did not work at all. It drove the air a certain distance from the face, and there met a wall, which was not dispersed for months. Instead of turning the water into the mine I connected up a pipe at each end and drew the water out, and, greatly to my surprise, I could then see the men working inside the tunnel. 1 had created an exhaust. I tried the same thing in the Dauntless, with a similar result. 11. So that you prefer the exhaust principle •*—l think the exhaust is far preferable to forcing the air in. 12. Have you had any experience of ventilating deep shafts ? —No, I have not worked in shafts for twenty-two years. I met with an accident in one, and have not worked in a shaft since. 13. As to accidents ?—The only accident of any importance of which I have had experience, apart from knocks and bruises, happened in the Caledonian shaft. It was in a very bad state of repair, and on one occasion some of the slabs slipped out into the shaft. The result was that the cage struck the rotten slab, and they broke away. The engine-driver, not noticing what had happened, the cage fell, and I nearly got my hand cut off. 14., Then, the accident was the result of rotten timber ?—Yes. it had been neglected by the manager. 15. Have you seen any accidents which were caused by misfires ? —No, but I have seen some narrow escapes. 16. Do you know anything about firing by electricity ? —No. 17. How many shots can a man safely fire by means of a fuse ?—He can reasonably attend to six holes. It greatly depends whether the holes are put in by machinery or hand-steel. You necessarily use more length of fuse, and have more time to get away.

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18. Have you had any experience in regard to sanitary matters ?■ —During the last twenty years I have had no experience in regard to it. 19. Mr. Dowgray.] In connection with the detection of gas by means of a candle, do you think that is a proper test for the safety of the men ?—lt is the only test we had. .20. Can it be improved on ?—Yes. 21. You were present when witnesses were giving evidence as to the necessity for pawls on windlasses : what is your opinion on that point ?—Most decidedly they are necessary. 22. Mr. Parry.] You have heard the evidence given by previous witnesses in regard to sanitary appliances, baths, and change-houses, also as to the fixing of a standard temperature for a six-hour place. Do you corroborate the evidence already given in regard to those matters ? —Yes, to a certain extent. 23. Is there anything else that you would like to bring before the Commission on those points ?— Yes ; that in the event of the present state of things being continued in the Deep Lsvels the blower should be kept going all the time, and not stopped on Saturday nights and only started again shortly before the shift goes below. 24. Is it stopped, then, on Saturday night ? —I have been given to understand that it is stopped when the men come off shift on Saturday, but it is not known at what time it is started again. The air is not so pure as it would be if the blower were kept going constantly. 25. Mr. Reed.] Are the conditions under which you observed the exhaust to be preferable to the blower to be compared with the Deep Levels ? —I am not in a position to say. 26. Have you known men's health to suffer through not having bath-houses at the mines ? — No ; but in my opinion one bath would be sufficient for a thousand men. 27. In these struggling mines at the Thames, would you insist upon every working-place being supplied with pure air ? —Yes ; that is, where common-sense could provide it, but not where it would involve the mine-owners in greater expense than they would be able to bear. 28. So you would consider the question of expense when deciding as to these small mines in the matter of bath-houses. In regard to ventilation, would you give them some latitude similarly ?—Yes, in the event of the men and officials being satisfied with the conditions. 29. You would not be sacrificing the safety of the men I—No.1 —No. I am not a faddist on that point, and believe in reasonable conditions. 30. Would you consider the burning of a candle as a test of the presence of gas to be a reasonable condition ?—lt is a satisfactory guide. I have used it always. 31. Is it admitted by the experienced miners all over the world ?— I do not know ; but the practical miner is satisfied with it. 32. The Chairman.] Have you known accidents happen through ignorance of that test ?—Yes. In the Caledonian tunnel two men were smothered. There was a way of escape, but by some means the trap-door had been covered over. When they found the gases rising they went up a rise, but were unable to lift the trap-door, and were overcome by the gas and smothered. 33. Does every miner know of the test by the candle ? —Yes. 34. Have you ever known of an accident happening as the result of men remaining underground despite the effect of the gas on the candle ? —No ; such men had no business underground. 35. Could any test be simpler than a candle test ? —No, there is nothing simpler. 36. Mr. Cochrane.] You also spoke, Mr. Sawyer, of the effect of the gas on the beating of the heart, and then the candle burning dimly—that is, in a general way, you meant, and not as a scientific test ?—Yes. 37. Why ?—I suppose the gases cause the heart to beat louder owing to there not being sufficient air. 38. Does it have a different effect on different individuals ?—No ;as a rule I find that where the gas is mixed with the air to an appreciable extent it makes any man's heart affected. 39. Mr. Molineaux.] You refer to a cage accident where a man was injured : how long ago was that ? —About twenty-two years. 40. There were no safety-catches on the cages in those days '( —No; that was the cause of the safetycatches being installed all through Australasia, and also the starting of the payment of compensation for accidents. 41. Mr. Dowgray.] I understand there is a better method for deciding the amount of gas : there is a lamp which detects 1| per cent, of gas ? —But is If per cent, dangerous to human life ? 42. If your candle will only tell when 7 per cents is present, is it not much better to have a quicker test ?-—Well, Ido not know. You see, the miner always has his candle with him. .43. The. Chairman.] Do you know of the existence of a lamp which shows the presence of If per cent, of gas ?—No, I have.never seen such a thing. ~ 44. If there were such a lamp would you advocate its use as opposed to the candle ?—No, Ido not think it is necessary. It is what I call splitting hairs. : :. William Henry Lucas sworn and examined. (No. II.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Lucas, a miner ? —Yes ; but I have not done any mining during the last four or five years. Up till that time I had been mining for between thirty and forty years. 2. Do you hold office in the Thames Miners' Union ? —Yes, I am secretary. 3. Have you had any experience of testing the temperature of air by instruments ?—No, I have only a smattering of it. I have had no experience.

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4. What is your opinion of the candle test for ascertaining the presence of noxious gases ?—Well from experience I know the candle test to be an infallible one for indicating the presence of gas in sufficient quantity to do any real harm to a man. Before it would cause death the candle would go out. Most old miners would feel the effect of it in their system, before the candle would show any indication of its presence. T know I can myself; but there was a time when I was not able to feel the effect of the gas before the candle went out. The effect on the system is not infallible. 5. Is the candle infallible ? —Yes. 6. Do you know anything of this lamp which detects the gas when only If per cent, is present ? —No, I have never heard of it. 7. Have you any information as to the ventilation, natural or artificial, and what is your opinion of the different systems of ventilation by artificial means ? —I hold the same opinion as the previous witnesses whose evidence you have heard —that is, that natural ventilation is preferable to artificial. There are occasions, however, when it is necessary to use artificial means, and in some cases the ventilation by exhaust is better and sometimes the blower is the better. 8. What is the determining factor ? —I could hardly say ;it would depend on the circumstances of the case. In a case like the Hauraki pump there is no doubt that a blower is required to put the air into the face, but it certainly does not remove the bad air and fumes from the men who are working in the level, and in that sense it is not effective. There should be some means of putting more air in with the blower to cause some exhaust that would draw the bad air out. 9. Are you in a position to say, Mr. Lucas, whether a powerful exhaust in place of the blower would give as good ventilation as the blower ? —I think, sir, the suggestion of Mr. Whitley is the most practicable one that I have heard —namely, that the section shaft should be connected as quickly as possible. With the blower from one shaft and the exhaust from the other there would be no difficulty at all. It was originally intended that this connection should be made. 10. Have you any opinion on the sanitary question ? —Yes ; I think, sir, better sanitary arrangements are necessary in all the mines, and their use should be made compulsory in all cases. 11. What is your opinion on the subject, of baths ? —I think that baths ought to be provided. Some of the mines are very dirty to work in, and when the men come to the surface they are in such condition that they require a warm bath. 12. Have you had any experience of accidents and their causes ? —Well, as secretary of the union, I have had an opportunity of learning the causes of many accidents from reports, but for some years we have had no serious accidents on this field excepting blasting, accidents. 13. What opinion do you hold as to how many shots should be fired with a fuse ?—I agree with previous speakers that where more than four or five holes have to be fired electricity should be used. I think four or five holes are quite enough to fire at once by the old method. 14. As secretary of the union, have you any knowledge regarding the prevalence of miners' disease ?—Yes, we have had a good deal of it at the Thames. There are a good many old members of the union incapacitated through it to-day who will never work again; a'so some comparatively young men. 15. Have you a system of lodge doctors under the union ? —No ; but we have a doctor for special examinations. The hospital doctor has had the most experience here with regard to miners' complaint. 16. Mr. Doivgray.] You accompanied the Commission, Mr. Lucas, on its visit to the Deep Levels on Saturday last % —Yes. 17. Do you consider the test of the air that was made on that occasion an efficient one ? —Of course, lam not experienced in regard to air-tests. As I said before, I have only a smattering of that sort of thing ; but I consider, in a general way, they were fair tests, with one or two exceptions. I think the test which was made in the May Queen Mine was scarcely a fair one from a practical point of view. 18. The Chairman.] Did you ask any member of the Commission to make a test at any point where you considered it desirable ? —No; the test should have been taken in the stopes instead of in the lower level. 19. Mr. Dow(jray.~\ You have heard a complaint made with regard to the water used in the spray : is there any difficulty, do you think, in getting fresh water for that purpose from the surface ?—No, because the county main is running close alongside the shaft, and that water could be used for the sprays. It is used at present in the boilers. 20. Have you heard any complaints as to the efisct the water at present used for the sprays has upon men ? —Yes, but only recently. The water has the effect of poisoning the men's hands if they have cuts or bruises. 21. What do you attribute that to ? —The water comes from the old level and is mineralized. 22. Do you think, that it should be brought from the surface ?—Yes, it should be fresh water wherever it is likely to come into contact with the men's hands or faces. 23. Mr. Parry.'] You have heard the evidence given by previous witnesses, Mr. Lucas : is there anything different you would like to place before the Commission as to fixing a standard temperature for a six-hour place ? —I certainly think it is reasonable for a standard temperature to be fixed for a six-hour place. It would be simpler than having to get the Mining Inspector to arrange the matter. 24. What is your opinion, as a practical man, as to whether the man who is compelled to work in such places is not in a better position to decide what is a six-hour place than the man who would consider the matter from a purely scientific point of view ?—The man who is working in a place should know ; but, still, I think the scientific point of view should be taken into consideration. 25. Do you think the miner is better able to tell the effect which the hot place has upon him than the man who judges by the constituents of the air ? —Yes, the workman is the best judge of the effect it has upon him.

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26. Would that not apply differently to the men ? —Yes, some men could stand more heat than others. 27. The Chairman.'] Have you any suggestion to offer as to what the standard should be ? —No, I should scarcely like to do that, because I do not presume to be an expert on theoretical temperatures. 28. Mr. Parry.'] You were in the face when that temperature of 80° fully saturated was taken in the Deep Levels on Saturday ? —Yes, and T think that should be fully the limit for a six-hour place—in fact, I think it should be less than that. 29. You have heard several witnesses giving evidence in regard to the necessity for having pawls attached to windlasses to prevent accidents ? —Yes, and I think it is a very reasonable thing as well as a very wise suggestion, because I have known a considerable number of such accidents occurring. The witnesses have referred to a man being struck with a windlass-handle, but they have omitted to make reference to the danger of a man being injured by the full bucket. 30. In regard to a standard of air, do you not think it should be fixed so that a workman should have some protection by law, and so that the matter should not be left to the Inspector of Mines to decide ? —Yes; and I think the Inspector would prefer that himself, and the mine-manager also. 31. Mr. Cochrane.] You said, Mr. Lucas, that the connection with the Saxon shaft was the best means of ventilating the low levels ?—Yes. 32. Do you know of any mining objections to that ? —No. 33. As to baths, would you recommend that they should be installed at mines where only two or three men are employed ? —No, I would not go that length, but only where more than half a dozen men are working. 34. From your long experience of the general health of miners have you observed many cases of miners' phthisis ? —Yes, very many. We have a great number of men now who are just able to walk about the street, and who are not able to do anything. 35. Then, without a medical examination, you cannot tell whether these men are suffering from miners' phthisis ? —They have been under examination by the hospital doctor before they stopped work. 36. Then you cannot; tell whether it is miners' phthisis or tuberculosis ?—The doctors have always said it was miners' complaint. 37. When it reaches the stage of being tuberculosis, so that such a man would be apt to communicate it to other men, would you exclude such men from the mine ? —I am not in a position to say. 38. If the doctor says it has reached the stage of being highly infectious, what would you say as to the necessity for preventing the men from working in a mine ? —Yes, certainly, I would exclude them if the doctor gave a certificate to that effect. 39. Would you be in favour of excluding from a mine any person suffering from consumption or any disease of that kind ? —Yes, I think if any man has an infectious disease he should be excluded. 40. Do you think the conditions underground aggravate, the trouble ? —Yes, I think so. 41. Then, I think you said something about the testing of the air in the May Queen Mine : would you be satisfied with the test of the air taken from the stope as a sample ?—I would say that if you wish to find the quantity of air which the men get you should test it in the stopes where the men are working, and in the working-face. In other mines you tested at the working-face, but in that mine you did not. 42. Do you consider analysing a sample of the air in the stopes a test ?—Yes, certainly. 43. Mr. Molineaux.] I understand that you object to men suffering from contagious disease working in a mine ? —No, Ido not know that I objected. The question was whether a man should be allowed to work underground, and I said, " No " ; it is a matter I have not considered. 44. You consider that a manager should have a right to insist upon the medical inspection of any doubtful case in regard to contagious disease ? —I do not know. lam hardly prepared to answer that question. 45. How else could you find out if a man were suffering from such a disease ? —Of course, if a man had the disease he would be under a doctor. Ido not think that would require consideration. G-eokge Waenb sworn and examined. (No. 12.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Warne ?—Mine-manager of the Waiotahi Mine. 2. What certificate do you hold ? —First-class mine-manager's certificate. 3. How long have you been mine-manager ? —About twelve years. 4. And your total experience of mining ?—Thirty-five years. 5. Where have you gained your experience ? —Principally in New Zealand, but also in the Old Country as a youth. 6. Have you any opinion to offer to the Commission in regard to the question of ventilation ? —Yes, 1 should like to go into that matter a little. After the Thames Deep Level crosscut had been started we were called together as an advisory committee to make a recommendation as to the method to be adopted for ventilating the crosscut. We went into almost every conceivable scheme, and we came to the conclusion that the best and really the only possible means of ventilation under the existing conditions was by way of a powerful blower. I might say that this blower is capable of delivering about 12,000 cubic feet of air per minute. The engine is about 50 horse-power, and, although at a short distance it would deliver that quantity of air, it would not do so at the end of a long line of pipes. 7. What would you call a short distance ? —Say, 500 ft. 8. What would it deliver at the present face ? —About 2,500 or 3,000 cubic feet per minute ; but it can easily be increased to deliver 6,000 cubic feet if that were required. As far as the working of the blower is concerned, the men have only to ask and they would be given more air. The blower sends in a stream of cold air, and for that reason they keep the pipes as far back as possible.

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9. What is your opinion of ventilation by the bower as compared with the exhaust method ? You have heard the evidence about the air in that return airway ? —You would have to combine the whole. The Queen of Beauty shaft has If in. and in some places only 1 in. clearance from the side of the cage, and, therefore, when the cages are in the shaft there is practically a block. It would be impossible to make a c'ear passage for air. 10. Is it not a fact, Mr. Warne, that the effect of the blower is to send the vitiated air along the drive, so that the truckers have to work in vitiated air ? —That is so ; but in the event of the exhaust system being tried you would collect the vitiated air from all the workings, you would take it up one side where all the gas is filtering out of the rock, and you would make the conditions unbearable. It would gather carbonic-acid gas. 11. What is your opinion as to sanitary arrangements in these mines worked from shafts ? —I think that all mines should be compelled to have sanitary arrangements installed, and during the course of my experience I have always insisted upon the mine being kept in a sanitary state, but it is greatly abused by the men. A few are very cleanly, but some are very filthy. We have made it a matter of dismissal as a penalty for committing a nuisance in any part of the mine. 12. Are you in favour of the provision of reasonable sanitary arrangements, and that their use should be made compulsory ? —Yes. 13. What is your opinion as to baths and change-houses ?—My experience has been that men when coming off shift are in such a hurry to get away that they have not sufficient time to even lace their boots ; there would not be many out of five hundred who would take a bath. I notice it has been said that baths should be provided on the basis of one bath for every six men. Let us suppose, sir, that it took fifteen minutes for a man to undress, bath, and re-dress himself ; it would take an hour and a quarter before the last of six men could go in. My idea of baths at mines is that if they are provided for the men it should also be made compulsory for the miners to use them. It is unfair to compel a company to erect baths, and then for the men to be in a por.ition to snap their fingers and go away unwashed. lam quite in favour of it if the men are compelled to take a bath, otherwise lam not. 14. As to accidents, have you had much experience as to their cause ?—I have had a few accidents myself. 15. What would you define as the main causes, apart, of course, from the inevitable accidents which must occur ? —With regard to fa'ling ground, I think that constant care should be taken and a sharp lookout kept if accidents from faling stone are to be avoided. I have often gons through the mine and drawn the attention of the men to the necessity for timbering. They sometimes argue the point, but I insist upon the timber being put in. As a result I have not had any serious accidents with falling ground. There have, of course, been trifling accidents, such as would be caused by a lump of stone falling on a man's toe, but in a mine of any size such accidents are to be expected. I have had two men injured by explosions, but that was practically their own fault, because, instead of removing the loose gravel where they wsre drilling their shot, they had left an unexploded charge, and the first tap of the hammer set the charge off. One was blinded, and the other also injured. Apart from cut fingers, I have only bad one man injured. The unfortunate man became entangled in the belt and was killed ; but the fault, to a very great extent, lay with himself. &? 16. What is your opinion as to shot-firing : how many shots is it safe to fire by fuse, and do you consider it desirable to use a battery ? —I think it is advisable to use a battery where you are firing a round of holes. 17. Have you any opinion to ofler as to the danger where there is only one man in charge of an engine ? —I cannot say, sir, that lam in favour of appointing an assistant engine-driver. If there were two men appointed to look after a certain winding-engine, and one were occupied in driving the engine continually, there would be a certain amount of jealousy and squabbling as to who should dr : ve the engine. If the manager saw the spare man doing nothing he might consider he was not required. I have heard of one case where there were two engine-drivers, and when one came on to relieve the other they had an actual fight while the engine was in motion, and it resulted in the cage being pulled over the top of the poppet-heads. «'" 18. Would it be advisable, when men are being lowered and raised, for the incoming engineer to be at his post, say, a quarter of an hour earlier, so that there would be two men always present ? Could that bo arranged, so that when the main danger was on the two engine-drivers should be present ?— That is so in a great measure now, when we have three shifts going. It often happens that the man is there half an hour before taking charge. 19. Would it entail any inconvenience or conflict of any kind for the two men to be there ? —They would require an increase of pay, because they would have to put in extra time. 20. How long does it take to change the shift ?—lt all depends. Half an hour extra would cover the whole thing. 21. If the engineer were to have half an hour put on to his shift in the engine-room, would that be a workable scheme ? —lt might work where you are employing three shifts, but there is only the MayQueen and the Queen of Beauty doing that. The Waiotahi Company is only working one shift. Ido not see how it would work. You could not ask a man to come for half an hour. For that reason I think the idea would be unworkable. JH 22. Is there any other matter you wish to refer to ? —No, I do not think so. 23. Mr. Reed.] Are you aware, Mr. Warne, that colliery shafts are round ? —Yes, though I have never worked in a colliery. 24. In a round shaft, with cages working in it, there would be space for air to get in ? —Yes. 25. Are you aware that collieries are nearly always ventilated by exhaust ventilation ?—Yes.

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26. In the Queen of Beauty you stated there was barely 2 in. clearance round the cage ? —Yes, and in many places only 1 in. 27. So that the conditions in ventilating a colliery and ventilating a gold-mine are not similar ? — No, they cannot be. 28. It is practically impossible to send air down a lined compartment which is almost blocked ? — Yes ; that is, immediately the cages leave the surface or bottom the shaft is closed. 29. Do those conditions exist in the. Queen of Beauty winding-compartment ? —Yes. 30. Is there any space in the Queen of Beauty shaft to put another 22 in. pipe ?—No, we had some difficulty in getting the present pipes down. 31. Could you well get air down a pumping-compartment in a large column by any method ?— No, Ido not think you could. You would have to overcome the natural inclination of the air by exhausting it. 32. Do you think it is necessary to bring water from the surface for drilling purposes ? —No. Some time ago we had a request that clean water should be taken to the bottom of the shaft for drinking purposes, but not for drilling purposes. 33. Should they not have it for drinking purposes ?—They can easily provide for that by taking it down in cans. 34. Have the men ever complained to you of the unsuitability of the water for drilling purposes % — No, not for drilling purposes, other than as to the pressure. 35. Not because the water coining in poisoned their hands ? —As a matter of fact, all our water is poisonous. 36. The men have not complained about the water used for drilling purposes ?—No. 37. The Chairman.] Do they not inhale the moisture from the water, which perhaps you would not care to drink ? —No, I do not think so. 38. If a man were working in damp air, and that dampness is caused by this water, will he not inhale into his system moisture from water that he would not drink ?—The water that would be coming out of that level would be very little different from the water coming out of the face. 39. The point is that the water is used for spraying purposes at the face. If that water has to pass through the mine where men are perhaps using the roads for depositing excreta, and the same water is sprayed about the face, ere they not breathing moisture from water which they would not drink ? —Yes, there would be a certain amount of saturation present. 40. When the water is falling out of the face it is pure, but after it comes through the mine and down the drive it is liable to have become polluted by outside impurities. Would not the men's condition be improved if they got pure water ? —I do not know that there is much objection to their getting fresh water. When they made a request to us for fresh water for drinking purpof.es they got it. If they now want it for drilling purposes, and it is shown that the water at present supplied is injurious to their health, we would have no objection to comply with their request. 41. It might not be actually injurious to their health ? —The spray caused by the water-jet is really pushed into the rock-drill hole, so that really no spray takes place till they pull it out. lam quite willing to suggest that they be given pure water from the surface, but I wish it to be understood that when they made their previous request it was for water for drinking purposes. 42. Mr. Reed.] The depth of the shaft is 1,000 ft. : would the pressure at the bottom represent 430 lb. to the square inch in the rubber hose ? —Yes. 43. Could you work a spray with that pressure ? — No ordinary pipes are made to stand such a pressure. 44. Do you know what is the cause of the impurity of the water which issues from a face ? Is there sulphuric acid in the water ? —lt is in a great measure due to the decomposition of iron-pyrites. It is well known that water at a temperature of 60° will absorb its own bulk of carbonic-acid gas. 45. So that the water issuing from the newly cut face would contain a greater proportion of sulphuric acid than the water in the water-table ? —Yes. 46. You have worked many years on this field, Mr. Warne ? —Yes. 47. Have you suffered from the acid water while drilling ? —The only effect it has upon me is to make my hands look untidy. 48. As regards testing ropes and catches, will you kindly give the Commission a short description of the method which you adopt when conducting the test of the safety-catch, overwinding hook, rope, and cage chains ?—Every twenty-four hours either the manager or some person appointed by him— in our case the engine-driver, who is a qualified man-centers in a book what he considers their condition each day. Than once a week I test the catches for their gripping-capacity ; every three months I test them with double the ordinary load, and make a careful examination after every test, entering the result in a book, which is open at all times for inspection by any man working in the mine. 49. In your capacity as manager of the Waiotahi and other mines, has the Inspector paid constant attention to your mines ?—Yes, I might say that he has always been very sharp in looking after us. 50. And you have complied with his requests ? —Yes, T have always endeavoured to do so in every respect. 51. As regards workmen's inspections, have the men carried out their inspections as they are empowered to do by the Act ? —No, they have never done so to my knowledge. 52. Have they neglected to carry out their inspections ?—Evidently so. I have never seen any workmen's inspections made. 53. For what purpose is the provision of workmen's inspectors made by the law ?—To further safeguard the men. 54. So that they seem to have neglected to safeguard themselves ? —Precisely.

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55. Would you be in favour of engine-drivers being periodically examined by a doctor as to their eyesight and liability to fits ?—Well, that is rather a difficult question to answer. I certainly would if I detected any defects in a man's eyesight or subjection to fits ; I would take steps to remove him, and to compel him to undergo a medical examination. There might not be any objection to the proposal. 56. Have you made a specialty of mine-temperatures ? —No, I have not made a specialty of the subject, but I have taken temperatures. 57. Would you consider yourself to be conversant with the theory of mine-temperatures—that is, sufficiently so as to set yourself up as an authority on the matter ? —No. 58. Are you of the opinion that exhaust ventilation would prejudicially affect the air in the crosscut for the truckers more than the blower does ? —Yes, I believe it would, because it would certainly gather up carbonic acid in the intake and also in the outlet. 59. As regards infectious diseases, would you be in favour of newcomers to a district beingexamined by a doctor to prohibit their entering a mine in case of infecting their fellow-workmen ?—lt is perhaps a rather delicate subject, but in the interests of the men working in the mine I have often felt that some such provision should be made. I have worked with consumptive men, and I can assure the Commission that I felt none too comfortable under the circumstances. 60. Mr. Cochrane.] I think you told us, Mr. Warne, that after due consideration you decided on a blower as the best means for ventilating the low level ? —Yes. 61. And so you got one ?—Yes. 62. A new one ?—No, it was a second-hand one, but practically new. Ido not think it had done twenty-four hours' work. 63. Then, supposing that the blower becomes insufficient to deal with the quantity of gas coming into the low level, what would you propose ? —I propose to connect at once with the Saxon shaft, and put up an exhaust fan. 64. As to baths, I understand you are against burdening the smaller mines with the expense of erecting them ? —Yes ; in fact, I am not in favour of baths at all unless it is made compulsory for the men to use them, because of the companies being put to such expense. 65. Not even for the larger mines ? —No. 66. If a medical authority were to tell you that it was most beneficial for men suffering from miners' phthisis to have baths, would you be in favour of it ? —My opinion is that the men would not use them unless they were compelled to do so, and it would not be practicable to make the men use them. 67. In regard to electrical shot-firing and the use of a battery for a round of holes, how many holes could the fuse safely be used for ?—I think not more than six shots should be fired with a fuse. Sometimes accidents are caused by short and defective fuse. 68. I understand you test your safety-catches every week ?—Yes. 69. What is the length of the drop ? —About 1-J in.; that is, measuring before dropping, and after it has dropped. 70. Do you test them at the surface or flat sheets ?—At the surface. 71. Do you put beams underneath to prevent them from falling down the shaft ?—Sometimes, if we have doubts as to their gripping efficiency, we do so. 72. How much slack rope do you allow ? —4 ft. or 5 ft.; often the whole length of the chain. 73. Mr. Dowgray.] When would you consider, Mr. Warne, that a mine was adequately ventilated ? —When a man could work in comfort. 74. From the chamber to the face ? —Yes. 75. Do you consider the Deep Level Mine is in that condition now ? —lt should be if the ventilator were kept going as it should be. 76. You stated that the blower was capable of delivering 12,000 cubic feet of air per minute ?— Yes, at a short distance. 77. It is not capable of delivering that quantity at the face ? —No, I would not say that. 78. When we took the measurement on Saturday it was over 8,000 ft. ? —No, not going at 120 revolutions. 79. But those are our figures ? —About 3,000 ft. is the actual amount being delivered at the present time. 80. You were present and heard the other witnesses refer to a complaint as to the stoppage of the blower ?—Yes. It is started at 4 o'clock on Sunday afternoon and stopped at 8 o'clock on Saturday evening, but if the men made a request to have, it started earlier it would be complied with. I have never been asked to start the blower earlier. 81. And you have never had any complaints about the trucking-roads being in such a bad state ? —No ; from the face to the shaft I know the road is none too good, but we have done everything we could to improve matters. 82. You admit that it is bad ? —I do not admit that it is bad ; I have worked in worse places. 83. Why is this blower not driven at greater speed ? —They have not requested it. If the men had asked they could have had more ventilation. 84. You have hsard a witness quote figures from a diary showing that the speed of the blower was increased from 100 to 120 revolutions per minute ?—You will understand that I am not in charge of that work. We are only an advisory committee. There is another man in charge of that work. 85. In connection with the ladder from No. 6 section to No. 9, have you ever travelled that way ? —Not through the May Queen shaft. 86. Mr. Parry.'] Does the May Queen come within your scope ? —No, I have nothing to do with the May Queen ; it is quite distinct from the mine of which 1 have charge.

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87. You stated that you would be quite willing to agree to the erection of bath and change houses if they were made compulsory ? —Yes, if it is made compulsory on the men to use them. 88. You say that not one in five hundred men would use them ?—I referred to the men in the metal-mines ; that might not apply to coal-miners. 89. Are you aware that approximately there are not twenty men out of five hundred who do not use them in Waihi ? —I am not aware of that. Do they use them when coming off shift ? 90. You stated that one bath would be sufficient for six men ? —Yes. 91. How long wou'd you consider it would take one man to have a shower-bath ?—lt all depends on the man himself. 92. But, as a rule ? Men do not monopolize a bath when they know others are waiting ?—They are very kind to one another in that respect. They would stop there half an hour if only to keep Jimmy Jones out. 93. Were those men whom you stated were injured by an explosion working on wages or on contract ? —On wages. 94. In reply to a question put by the Chairman you said that the appointment of an assistant to the engine-driver would cause squabbles ?—That would all depend on the fighting proclivities and temperaments of the men, and the disposition of the one to tolerate the other sitting doing nothing while he did all the work. 95. Apart from the question of squabbles, do you think there is sufficient risk to warrant the appointment of an assistant ? —I have never in all my experience found a man to faint or be unfit while at his engine at any time. If he were unfit I would immediately take steps to send him home, and put another in his place. I would not allow an unfit man to stay at his engine. It is the manager's duty to remove him. 96. Do you think it is necessary to wait until such time as an accident occurs in order to justify a remedy ? —Perhaps not; but I would like to see reasonable grounds before taking such steps, or some sound arguments for suggesting it. At present I see no grounds to necessitate such a provision. 97. Do you know that it is compulsory in the Old Country ? —I am not aware of that. It probably cou'd be worked, and I would have no objection to raise provided it were shown that it is for the safety of the men. 98. You say, Mr. Warne, that you have no objection to providing fresh water for boring purposes ? —No, if a proper request is made for it. The only request we received was for drinking purposes. I do not think we misunderstood them at all. 99. Do you believe in the provision for workmen's inspection ?—Yes, full provision is made, but it is not availed of. 100. What is the reason that it has not been taken advantage of ?—lndifference. 101. Is it not a fact that the men will not carry out the inspections owing to its being detrimental to their interests ?—lf they were properly appointed men from the miners' union I would have no objection to them. 102. I am asking you, is it not a fact that a man does not care about that position because he is not going to curry favour with the manager ?—No, Ido not see any such reason. They are quite welcome to inspect if they wish to do so. 103. What is the depth of your well-hole in the Deep Levels ? —As far as I know it is only 7 ft. 104. Do you think that well-hole is sufficiently deep ?—No ; I would like to sink it 50 ft., but the material was not available for putting it in that depth. 105. Do you think there is any danger being incurred through that well-hole not being deeper ? — Only in the event of a sudden inrush of water. 106. Do you not think it would be advisable to make it deeper ? —No, I would not say that, because every foot the tunnel advances it makes more water-room, and it would be equivalent to the sinking of a shaft. In the first place I would have preferred to have sunk it 50 ft. deep. 107. In the event of a big inrush of water from that place or the other drives off the main crosscut, what chance would a man have of getting out ? —Well, I do not think there would be such an awful danger i the other men were prompt in warning them of the danger, because there is so much waterroom, and it is ever increasing. Ido not think there would be much difficulty in that respect. 108. Do you think there should be some method of communication with the men who are some distance from the crosscut ? —Yes, we have thought of it ourselves. It would be advisable to have some signal apparatus for apprising men long distances away of intending danger. 109. What is your opinion, Mr. Warne, about the fixing of a standard temperature for a six-hour working-day ? —Well, I do not think it would work very well, because what would be a good workingplace even if the temperature were high would not be a good working-place in another way. You must take into consideration the moisture and other matters. You might be able to stand working in a fairly high temperature if it were dry, while in a moist atmosphere of the same temperature you would be ill. 110. Do you not think there would be less confusion between the manager and the men if a standard of heat were fixed—both parties would know what to do ? —I think it would affect the miner in this way : the moment the temperature rose he would be discharged if he refused to work for eight hours. The company would decide to stop the work. 111. In your opinion, is that the only impediment to fixing a standard ?—Working by a standard here at the Thames would be very difficult, because we get hot places ; and under the Arbitration Act it is provided that the Inspector shall decide what is a six-hour place—a hot and gassy place. 112. Is it not a fact that the Inspector of Mines would sooner have a temperature fixed, so that he would know what to do when dealing with such matters ? —I have not heard any Inspector express himself in that way.

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113. Do you think a man can do justice to himself working in a place with a high temperature ? —No, they cannot, andjjhey do not work as hard ; they do not attempt to do so. 114. Who determines how hard they shall work ?—Themselves, principally, nowadays. 115. At all times ?—Very frequently. 116. And you do not think any good would be served by fixing a standard temperature I —No. In the event of the temperature rising so high we are sufficiently human to say, " Well, boys, it is too hot. We will stop this place." I have made such a remark myself and stopped the work. 117. Why are you working six-hour shifts in that face ? —To push on the work, principally. I deemed that a wet and gassy place. 118. But not a hot place ? —No, not at the face, because sometimes we get the temperature down there as low as on the surface. 119. When did you do that ? —Some time ago. 120. Would you be surprised to know that on Friday there was a difference of between 51° and 76° moist temperature ? —That might be possible. You might possibly go down to-day and find that temperature, while to-morrow totally different conditions would prevail. 121. You say that you are working six-hour shifts to push the work on ? —That is the principal object, as far as the companies are concerned. 122. You think more work would be done by tour six-hour shifts than by three eight-hour shifts ?—Yes. .... 123. Then, it is better for the company to have six-hour shifts than eight-hour shifts ? —Yes. 124. Still, you would not suggest that a standard be fixed ? —No, I think we are sufficiently human nowadays to make them six-hour places if it is necessary. 125. You yourself, Mr. Warne, might be sufficiently human, but other managers may not: in the interests of all, would it not be better to have a six-hour standard ? —No, because it would be made to apply to any place where there was no real necessity for it. 126. Would you sooner work in a cool place below than in a hot place ? —I would rather work in a cool place, of course. 127. Therefore there is an advantage in working in a cool place '( —Yes, certainly. 128. What effect has working in a hot place on a man ?—lt has a bad effect: you are extremely fatigued after the day's work is over. 129. Can you take your food as well ? —Yes, I could always take my food as well after working in a hot place as after working in a cool place. 130. Seeing that you have admitted these matters, do you not think that it is better to have a standard fixed by law, and so cause less confusion between employers and men ? —No, I do not think so. lam not in favour of a fixed standard. We would have such a state of affairs that the men would refuse to work unless they had six-hour shifts. 131. Would you sooner work on the surface at a temperature of 100° or at a temperature of 80° ? —lt would be much more pleasant working with a temperature of 80°. 132. Therefore you would sooner work in a cool place either on the surface or underground % — I would rather work in a cool place underground, say, at 70°, than at 100° on the surface. 133. Do you think that a high temperature is fatiguing both underground and on the surface ?— Yes. 134. Do you think the same temperature is as fatiguing on the surface as underground ? —1 submit that if you take a miner from underground, and put him working on the surface on a hot summer's day, that man is far more fatigued than he would be if he were working underground. 135. Compare a man working underground at 90° and another working on the surface at 80° : would the underground man be a great deal more fatigued ? —Yes, that might be so. 136. In the development-work of a mine do you realize that there are many places which are difficult to ventilate ?—Yes, they are the worst mines in any part of the world. 137. Seeing that it is difficult to ventilate those places, how would you make provision for the men working there ? —The means that we adopt is by exhausting and forcing the air; but as to laying down a general rule that the exhaust system would be the more satisfactory, I say that it would not be possible to carry the necessary air to the faces by that means. It would be almost impossible without both systems. You must have both processes in the mine. 138. Under those circumstances, what would you suggest where it was almost a matter of impossibility to get the ventilation which you would like to get ? —I would put in a fan where a forcing-blast was found necessary, and I would put in large exhaust fans. It is no use talking about 8 in. and 6 in. pipes. 139. Supposing you had 20 ft. to go to prove a reef, and the air bad and the temperature dry, what would you suggest in order to get that work done ? —I would not do the work at all if it were purely a prospecting matter and you did not know that there was something of value there. 140. And you think that every company or manager would look at it from that point of view ? — 1 think so. If it were only a matter of 20 ft. it becomes purely a prospecting question, and we would not go to much trouble to try the reef. You cannot depend on our reefs —they may be worth Is. a ton to-day and £5 a ton to-morrow. 141. In the event of your wishing to push the work on, you would work four shifts instead of three ?—lf the conditions were unfavourable to the men I would. 142. If you could not get air it would be unfavourable ? —lt is not only a matter of air, there is also the heat to be considered. 143. If the prospects were good enough to warrant your going on, would you suggest som reduction in the hours of labour to be worked ? — Undoubtedly.

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144. You have heard the evidence regarding the attachment of this patent to the windlasses . do you approve of it I—ln1 —In some respects I do, but in others Ido not. I want to know first how a man is going to land his bucket and also trip his pawl. 145. It is a very easy thing to do : he pulls his bucket, stops his machine running on the cog, and when the windlass is stopped he lands his bucket easily enough '?—T do not object to the idea. It is a thing I have never seen used. 146. You think it would be a safeguard ?—Yes, undoubtedly. 147. Have you never worked in the Waihi or Karangahake Mines ? —I have worked in Karangahake for a time. 148. What do you think about fixing a standard height for stopes ? —Well, a great deal depends upon the ground in which you are working. If the ground will not stand a fair height, and there is danger, they should be kept down. 149. Do you think that in any ground the stopes should be a reasonable height to enable the men to sound them, every morning ? — Where the ground is likely to come away that should be done. But in many metal-mines throughout the world you could take them up 80 ft. high without danger. 150. And the walls would be perfectly safe ? —Yes, particularly in such as tin-mines, where there is granite rock. 151. Do you consider mining an unhealthy occupation ? —Certainly, as a general rule, it is unhealthy. I would not put a son of mine into the mines. 152. During your experience have you heard many complaints made by men suffering from different kinds of sickness ? —Miners' complaint; that is prevalent at the Thames, but it originated several years ago when conditions were much worse than they are now. 153. As regards superintendents interfering with the manager, have you had any experience of that sort of thing ? —I do not think it is desirable at all. A man who is acting in the capacity of manager should be in full charge of the mine, and should not be dictated -to by any other man on matters involving the safety of the men. 154. He should be protected by law from that kind of thing ?—Yes. 155. The Chairman.] He should have full control and be full}' responsible ? —Yes, which, they are now. Men working under supervisors are only dummies. The supervisors have no certificates at all, and consequently have nothing to lose. The man who would go to prison would be the mine-manager. 156. Mr. Parry.] You say that superintendents should not have any control over the managers ? —So far as the prevention of accidents is concerned. 157. And the working of the mine in general ? —No, not as to where he shall work : that should be left to the supervisor. 158. What protection have the workmen if the law does not make any provision ? —I would make the same provision in the law as there is in. the Arbitration Act, whereby in hot and gassy places men may work six-hour shifts. 159. But in the event of the Inspector of Mines not being stationed near where the difficulty arises, how is it going to be fixed ?—By the workmen's inspector and the manager. 160. And in the event of the manager and the workmen's inspector not agreeing ?—I think they would agree. There would not be much oppo ition. You might find it now and then, but not as a rule. 161. Under those circumstances, do you not think it is necessary to have something laid down by law to stop any confusion between the management and the workers ? —No; I think it would be a very difficult mat er to lay down a standard, and even more difficult to keep to it. 162. An Inspector of Mines is not stationed near all the big mines ? —No ; but if this provision in made you will find that nearly every working-place will be a six-hour place. 163. In order to overcome that, what would you suggest so that it would not apply to every working-place ?—I would not suggest any standard temperature. 164. Simply because it would apply to every working-place ?—lt would be made to apply unduly to nearly every working-place. 165. Supposing the standard were fixed at 80°, and it was found that that would apply to every place, whose fault would that be ?—I do not think it would be. anybody's fault : I fail to see how it could. We may have 100° in our Deep Levels. 166. And you think the men should work eight hours there ? —No, I do not think they should work in it at all. 167. Yet you would not suggest a standard temperature ?—I would suggest anything about 80° : that might be hot enough for any man to work in. 168. Mr. Reed.] Then, you have changed your opinion ? —I do not wish for a standard ;I do not suggest it. But as the question was pressed so much I perhaps unwittingly made that statement. At the same time, I would not make a statutory standard temperature. 169. Mr. Fletcher.] Mr. Warne, do you encourage the workmen to make their inspections— workmen's inspections ? —I have never had any request for such inspections. 170. Do you encourage ths workmen to make inspections ? —We certainly do try to insist upon their seeing that they are safe themselves, but they will not do it. 171. Mr. Dowgray.] You know the use of the barometer in connection with mining : in a mine like the Deep Levels, where there have been sudden outbursts of gases, are the readings duly reported ?— Such particulars are not required by the Act in gold-mines, but in collieries it is a necessary and usual precaution.

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George William Horn sworn and examined. (No. 13.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Horn?— Mine-manager of the Kuranui-Oaledonian Mine. 2. What certificates do you hold?—A first-class mine-manager's certificate by examination. 3. How long is it since you obtained your certificate? —I think it was in 1891. 4. What experience had you had prior to that?— Principally in battery and mining work for about ten years. I have hud thirty years' experience altogether, mainly in this district. 5. Have you a decided opinion on the matter of ventilation? —1 might say that 1 am also a member of the advisory board with Mr. Warne, and it was principally on our suggestion that the present system of ventilation was adopted for the Deep Levels. After yery careful consideration we came to the conclusion that it was the best method to adopt. 6. So far as the relative expense of installing and working, how do the blower and the. exhaust compare?— The exhaust could not be adapted for that place. 7. You made full inquiries as to their relative suitability?— Yes, in my opinion it requires two shafts to work the exhaust satisfactorily. 8. Have you any opinion to express on the question of sanitation : are you in favour of sanitary appliances being provided, and their use being made compulsory?— Yes, I think it would be advisable to have sanitary conveniences and that sort of thing where there are a great number of. men employed, and where they are working some distance from the surface. Otherwise it is not necessary, particularly in the smaller mines. 9. What is your opinion in regard to the necessity for change and bath houses? —In some mines it might be advisable to have them, but generally the men are in such a hurry to get home after coming off shift that the bath-houses and change-houses, if provided, would not be used. 10. Have you any opinion to offer as to the cause of accidents? —No, sir, I have not had any accidents of consequence in any of the mines I have been connected with. 11. What is your opinion as to the number of shots which could be fired safely with the fuse? —Where the men are working with the hand-steel, I think that six or seven shots are quite sufficient to discharge at once by that means. 12. Where more than that number are being fired do you think electrical appliances should be adopted? —Yes, 1 think it would not be unreasonable to ask that. 13. Have you any opinion to offer as to the necessity for a second engine-driver being present when men are being lowered? —I do not think that is necessary. I think that engine-drivers, if they were feeling unfit for duty, would say so. I have never known of a case of an engine-driver fainting while on his shift. 14. Have you any opinion to offer as to a standard temperature? —I do not think, myself, that a standard temperature would work very well on a changeable field of this kind. The Thames field is perhaps an exception to any other mines in the world, and you cannot work them by the same rules as others, because the conditions vary so much. We are troubled more with gas than about the heat. The gas is really the bugbear of the mine-managers on this field. 15. Mr. Cochrane.'] You heard Mr. Warne give his evidence? —Yes. 16. Do you corroborate it in all respects in regard to the Deep Levels? —Yes, I do; but I would like to add a little more. I was rather surprised to hear some of the statements made the day before yesterday. It is only fair and loyal to the managers, when the men have complaints to make, that they should be made to the management. If they thought that the blower was not ventilating the Deep Levels sufficiently they would be warranted in approaching the manager on the subject. It is simply a matter of increasing the capacity of the blower, which can be easily done. 17. Is it a mattei , of expense which causes you to run the blower at less than its full capacity? —No, we do not consider the matter of expense, but only whether a greater quantity of air is required. That can be provided if necessary. I would like to point out that at 120 revolutions per minute the blower is forcing in about 3,000 cubic feet of air. The maker's catalogue states that a blower of 24 in. can be run to force air in at the rate of 15,650 cubic feet per minute. Ours is a 24 in. outlet blower, but owing to want of space in the shaft we had to reduce our airpipes to 22 in., so that we can onh T consider it as a 22 in. blower, which, according to the maker's catalogue, will deliver 12,625 cubic feet of air per minute. 18. How far?—At the outlet from the blower. It does not state how far. 19. Then, do you know that it would deliver a great deal less at a distance of 500 ft. I —Yes, that is so; but, still, there is the other side of the question —namely, if it is delivering that quantity when working at 120 revolutions, what will it deliver at 255 revolutions? Those men should have gone to the manager in the first place. 20. Have you had any experience of blasting accidents? —No, I have never had any accidents of that nature in the mines of which I have had charge. Might I state here that we found that 2 ft. of fuse will burn out in one minute, and in one minute a man could comfortably walk 300 ft. 21. The Chairman.] How long would it take to light six holes? —That question refers to having manholes for getting away. 22. What is your opinion as to these chambers? —Where you have a long tunnel it is advisable to have a lay-by here and there. If the men have to get out of the way of the shots I should say that the manholes would require to be 500 ft. apart. 23. Mr. Cochrane.'] How far are the pieces of rock thrown?—lt varies very much according to the country. 24. Can you give us the variations? —No, I cannot. 25. Have you any recommendations to make as to the better ventilation of, say, winzes and risas? —No, I do not think we can make any improvement on the present system. 26. VTfe«t is the praeent system?—-We have the box system.

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27. Would you, if necessary, provide a small auxiliary fan? —Yes, if necessary. 28. In regard to ventilating your levels ahead of a circulation of air, would you be in favour of a maximum distance beyond which they should not go ahead of the air? Supposing no air is being led by pipes, how far would you drive the level ahead of the air ?—That would vary very much under different conditions. It would be almost impossible to lay down any definite rule. The custom is to take a portion of the piping with you. 29. As to the question of the mine-manager controlling all the works in his own mine, and interference by either a board of directors or a superintendent, have you anything to say?— Well, I think, sir, that when a mine-manager is responsible, as he is under the present Act, for the lives of the men working in the mine, he should have full charge, with full power to see that the men are working in safety. 30. Mr. Beed.~\ Have the men taken advantage of the power to make inspection as provided by law?— Not that lam aware of. They have never paid me a visit. 31. Does the Inspector of Mines visit your mine frequently?— Yes, very regularly. 32. Does he thoroughly examine the mine? —Yes. 33. Does he insist upon all the provisions of the Mining Act being observed?— Yes. 34. Do you know why the miners do not take advantage of the power to make inspections?— Well, I suppose they are satisfied with the conditions. 35. Have you plenty of boilers for running your blower? —Yes, I think there are ten boilers. 36. Has the Deep Levels board received any complaints from the men as to the quality of air in the Deep Levels?—No, not that I am aware of. 37. Have you received any complaints as to the quality of the water used for sprays? —Not in the form of a complaint. I think some of the men have said that they preferred the water from the surface for drinking purposes, but they do not complain of the water used for boring. 38. You heard Mr. Warne's evidence on the subject of a standard temperature?— Yes. 39. Do you agree with it entirely?— Yes, I do. Ido not think it is workable on a field of this kind. There might be conditions present as regards gas which are really worse for the men than a high temperature. They would be more entitled to work six-hour shifts by reason of the gassy nature of the country than because of the heat. 40. The Chairman.'] As to the tribunals provided for by the Act for inquiring into accidents in mines, do you approve of the present system of such inquiries being conducted by a Warden and two assessors? —Yes, I think it is a very satisfactory one, and to be preferred before a Warden alone 41. Would it not be better for the assessors to be a miner and a mine-manager?— Yes, that might be fairer; I would not object to that, personally. 42. At any rate, you think it is preferable to have two assessors rather than the Warden alone? —Yes. 43. Mr. Dowf/ray.'] Have you had any experience of taking temperatures?— Not a great deal. 44. Can you explain the difference between a wet and dry bulb? —Not from experience. 45. Mr. Parry.'] Well, then, I take it that you are not in a position to tell what effect moist temperature has upon the conditions of the men?—l am not a doctor exactly. Do you mean physically ? 46. Yes, what effect would moist and dry temperatures have upon a man? —I do not quite understand what you are getting at. 47. You say you do not know the difference between a wet and a dry bulb? —Do you mean the difference in the atmosphere when tested by the two bulbs? Supposing you took the temperature with the wet and then with a dry bulb, the latter would register so many degrees higher. 48. It might not?—l think it would. lam not familiar with the subject. 49. Therefore you are not able to give an idea as to what temperature is injurious to a man's health? —It does not make any difference whether the temperature is taken with the wet or the dry bulb. 50. You are not in a position to give an idea as to what standard of temperature would be injurious to a man?—l know, from temperatures we have taken, what is high enough for a man to work in. Anything over 80° by the wet bulb is rather too warm for a man to work in comfortably. 51. That is to say, if the temperature goes over 80° by the wet bulb, the place is too hot to work an eight-hour shift in? —Generally speaking, it is too warm to be comfortable. I would not say it is too warm for an eight-hour place. 52. That does not answer the question. You say you corroborate Mr. Warne's evidence: do you also corroborate that given by Mr. Whitley? —In regard to temperature, yes. I think he was pretty well correct. 53. In corroborating the last witness's evidence you agree that if a standard were fixed it would presently apply to all places in the Thames?— Yes, I suppose it would. That hardly requires corroboration. 54. Seeing that you believe that, is it not a sufficient reason for fixing a standard temperature for a six-hour place?—No, that is a reason why you should not fix it. 55. Supposing a standard, say 80°, were fixed, and the majority of places did not exceed that standard, how would it apply to all those places as you say it would?— Sometimes those places reach that temperature in the summer-time. 56. And if they did, would it not only apply to those places, then? —Yes; but if you had a standard, one week you would be working it as a six-hour place and the next an eight-hour place. 57. Do you think, as a practical man, that is a great impediment to fixing a standard?— Yes, I do not think we ought to have a law which is continually changing from one week to another; the law should apply to the place all through.

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58. Would you sooner work in 70° than in 80°?— In the lower, because it would be more comfortable. 59. And yet you do not think that a man is entitled to some protection from the law of the land in regard to those places?- —I did not say he was not entitled to it; he already has it. 60. In what way? —Because the Inspector of Mines gives him it. If he is not satisfied he has only to get the Inspector along. 61. Do you not think it is placing a responsibility on the Inspector of Mines? —Yes, but he is there to take that responsibility. 62. Do you not think that the Government, we will say, are putting a responsibility on the Mining Inspector by not fixing a guide for him to go by? —No, not an unnecessary responsibility. 63. You said, in reply to a question by Mr. Dowgray, that one great reason against fixing a standard was that a man might be worse off working in a gassy place than he would be in a hot place ?—Yes, he would be better off unless he worked six hours. 64. What impediment is that to fixing a standard? —It is just as justifiable to create a standard for the gas as for the heat. 65. What is the standard for gas at the present time? —There is no standard for gas. 66. Only when a man cannot work any longer?— Yes, that is so. 67. Is it not the same with a hot place?— No. 68. Do you not think a man himself is best fitted to judge as to the injurious effects the heat of his place has upon him?—He certainly knows how it affects him, and he is the best judge in that respect. Consequently, when he finds it is bad, it is his duty to acquaint the officials or the minemanager, and they come to reasonable terms. The mine-managers on this field have never objected to meet the men fairly on any question. 69. In the event of the miner and the manager not agreeing, what is the position?— The Inspector of Mines is called in to decide. 70. And in the event of the Inspector not being available? —He is always available. 71. Here at'the Thames?— Well, generally. 72. Supposing he is at Hikurangi? —He is never away very long; he is generally available. 73. But he is sometimes away for a week at a time? —Occasionally he may be. 74. Supposing after he had been away a day a dispute arose? —The place would remain idle until the Inspector returned, and the men would be put in some other place. .75. In the event of its being a place which the company desired to go on with, and stoppage threatened to cause the company both delay and expense, would it not be better for a standard temperature to be fixed? —No. If he wished to push on the work the manager would simply say, " I will give you a six-hour shift until the Inspector returns." 76. Have you worked on the surface in a hot temperature?— Yes, in Coolgardie. 77. What was the highest temperature on the surface?— About 100°. 78. Would you sooner work at a temperature of 100° on the surface than below at the same temperature?—On the surface. 79. Do you think mining is a healthy occupation? —No, I do not, generally speaking. 80. And yet, though you consider it an unhealthy occupation, you do not think that it is necessary to fix a standard for six-hour shifts in unhealthy places?—l did not say that. I do consider it so. 81. At what temperature do you consider it is unhealthy?—l do not think I can say; the conditions of the atmosphere have to be taken into consideration. In a surface drive, for instance, the temperature might be high, and still the conditions may be quite healthy. 82. You think that the provision in the Act is all that is necessary?— Yes; if the men have any complaint to make they can get it remedied. William John Adams sworn and examined. (No. 14.) 1. The You are a mine-manager, Mr. Adams? —Yes. 2. What certificates do you hold? —A service certificate. 3. What mine are you in charge of at present?-—The Waitangi. 4. What experience have you, Mr. Adams? —I have been mining for over thirty years. 5. Where? —Mostly at the Thames and Waihi. 6. What is your opinion with regard to ventilation?—l have not had much experience of ventilating shaft-workings, but in drives I have had to do with the blower and exhaust. 7. And which do you prefer?—ln a surface drive I find that the exhaust is the better; it has proved so in the Waitangi. I have changed from blower to exhaust, and it has made a wonderful improvement. 8. Have you had any experience in deep mines? —Not as to ventilation. 9. Have you had any experience which will enable you to speak with regard to sanitary arrangements?— Yes, there are some mines where there is considerable room for improvement in connection with sanitary matters. 10. Do you consider that sanitary conveniences should be provided, and their use made compulsory ?—Yes. ■ 11. Have you had any experience of accidents? —No, I have only had one accident. 12. Have you any opinion to offer as to the number of holes it is safe to fire with fuse, and when electricity should be used? —With the hand-steel I think there should be a limit fixed. Six would be quite enough. 13. And any larger number should be fired with electricity? —Yes. 14. Have you any decided opinion as to the feasibility of a standard temperature being fixed? — It is a matter I have never gone into.

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15. Are you any authority at all on the taking of temperatures by instruments?— Not except with a thermometer. That is all I use. 16. At what temperature would you consider a place too hot to work in? —I think when it gets over 80° it is hot enough for a six-hour shift. 17. At what temperature should a man cease work altogether, taking into consideration the heat alone? —I think when it rises above 80° a man cannot do much work in it. 18. Have you had any experience of anything else which will make a place injurious—gas or anything?—l have been in gassy places. 19. And do you consider a standard temperature to be a workable scheme —that is, the standard to be fixed by statute?—l am afraid the conditions at the Thames would not suit it very well. I cannot speak for other districts. 20. Have you given any consideration to the matter of the constitution of the tribunal which inquires into accidents in mines, the Warden and two mine-managers? —No. 21. What would you say to the tribunal being composed of a Warden, a miner, and a minemanager, instead of two mine-managers?—l do not know; it is a matter that I have never studied. 22. Mr. Cochrane.'] What is your opinion of the necessity for bath-houses?—My experience of bath-houses in Waihi is that, though there were a great number of men working, very few of them ever went into the bath; they simply washed themselves and went home. That was some years ago. 23. If they do use them, as you have heard it stated to-day, would you be in favour of bathhouses being provided in the larger mines? —Yes, provided the men are compelled to use them. 24. Would you make the compulsion as to taking baths apply to all the men, or only to those suffering from miners' phthisis?—l do not know how you could make it apply to all men. 25. Have you anything to suggest as to the better ventilation of winzes? —No, nothing better than we have at the present time. 26. What are your present arrangements?— Double passes. 27. Do you rise or sink?— Both. 28. Then how do you provide for ventilation? —In rising we put in a box rise; sometimes we use the blower. In surface workings we use the exhaust, which gives a good current, and we have no trouble. 29. Would you be in favour of making it compulsory for these rises to be ventilated by auxiliary fans?—l do not know how that would act in the smaller mines, but it should be satisfactory in the bigger mines. . 30. Have you anything to say as to the ventilation of stopes where there is little air-current? —Certainly, where there is bad ventilation some provision should be made. 31. In what way?—By natural ventilation or by means of a fan or blower. 32. But that would necessitate a connection between the level? —Yes. . , 33. Have you any cages at your mine?—-No, they are only surface workings. 34. But at other mines where you have been you have had cages : how did you test the safety appliances? —Just in the ordinary way. I have seen them tested, but I have had nothing to do with them. 35. Mr. Eeed.] Are you an authority upon standard temperatures?—No, I am not able to express an opinion on that subject. .36. In reply to a question you stated 80° as a temperature which you would consider very warm I—Yes.1 —Yes. 37. You would work a place with that temperature, wet or dry? —No. ■ 38. Which bulb did you mean? —Simply the outside temperature of the atmosphere, dry. '39. You thought that was sufficiently hot, or did you mean with a wet bulb?—No, with a dry bulb. 40. Are you well acquainted with the Deep Levels operations ?—No, I have not been down the shaft. 41. Is your mine at Waitangi a gassy mine? —No, there is no gas; there is light air. 42. So that the little exhaust fan which you have is quite capable of dealing with the comparatively pure air in the mine? —Yes, there is no trouble. 43. You do not know what effect that fan would have if there were much gas in the mine? — It depends on the quantity of gas. If there was only a small quantity the fan could cope with it. 44. You are not within the gassy zone? —No. 45. Have the workmen ever made any complaints or inspected your mine? —No. 46. Does the Inspector of Mines frequently visit and inspect your mine?— Yes. 47. Does he require the provisions of the Mining Act to be thoroughly carried out? —Yes. 48. Have you recently tested the time which a 5 ft. piece of fuse takes to burn?— Yes. I did not exactly take the time, but after setting fire to the fuse I walked a distance of 820 ft. at a steady pace before the cap went off. 49. Have you found any of that fuse defective? —No, it was the best quality. 50. What length of fuse do you use with rock-drills? —5 ft. and 6 ft. 51. What is the maximum distance at which you have known stones to injure a man when projected down a drive by an explosion ?—ln our case I do not think I have seen a man injured when more than 250 ft. away. 52. Would you think it a necessary precaution to have manholes cut in the side of your drive to protect the men when firing?—lt would not be necessary in our case, because we have lay-bys and wide places for them to get into. There is one lay-by within 227 ft. of the face, and another one s'4oft., and a third 820 ft. Such a provision may, however, be necessary in some mines. 53. So that lay-bys will act as manholes?— Yes. Then there is timber all the way along, where a man could step in and get shelter.

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54. Mr. Dowgray.] You walked 820 ft. before the shot went off ?—Yes. 55. Mr. Parry.] You say, Mr. Adams, that the lay-by will protect the men if they wish to protect themselves? —Yes. 56. You do not allow for a piece of stone which might glide off the timber or the wall? —I have never seen a piece of stone go further than 50 ft. 57. Did you ever know or hear of a man being struck by a piece of stone .like that? —No. 58. In answer to Mr. Reed you said the men had made no complaints as to the workingconditions I—No.1 —No. 59. Is that the only place you are working where we were yesterday?— Yes. CO. Under the conditions of that drive they would not have any cause for complaint?—No, they seem satisfied as to the manholes. 61. With a view to keeping the bottom of the drive dry, do you think it is very convenient to have a drain kept open on one side in order to keep the footboards dry? —I do. 62. You have that in your level? —Yes, right to the face. 63. And your footboards are always dry?— Comparatively dry. The water is all carried away. 64. You have heard the evidence in regard to windlasses : do you approve of their being fitted with cogs and pawls? —Yes, I am in favour of a wheel being placed on windlasses, because I have had an experience of the necessity for it myself.

Thames Courthouse, 17th August, 1911. Boyd Bennie sworn and examined. (No. 15.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Bennie? —I am Inspector of Mines for the Northern Inspection District, and also Inspector of Coal-mines. 2. What certificates do you hold? —A first-class mine-manager's certificate under the Mining Act, and also a first-class mine-manager's certificate under the Coal-mines Act, by examination. 3. What mining experience have you had? —Over forty-three years. 4. Where?—ln Scotland for about nine years in coal-mines, in the North of England one year in coal-mines, Kaitangata eight years, New South Wales nine years; in gold-mines, at Coromandel for four years, Waihi about five years. I was also for two years manager of the Mokau Coal-mine, and I have been Inspector of Mines for about six years. 5. What are your duties now under your present appointment?— The examination of both coal and gold mines, the latter under Part V of the Mining Act, and Inspector of Quarries, Thames County. 6. And under whose direction do you carrj' out your duties I —By instructions from the Minister through the Under-Secretary for Mines. 7. You might give the Commission an outline of your duties and your general system of inspection ?— -Taking first the examination of gold-mines under the Mining Act, I inspect all the mines in the Thames County, and all metal and coal mines in the Provinces of Taranaki and Auckland, excluding the Ohinemuri and Coromandel Counties, with the Great Barrier Island. 8. In the course of your inspections do you take measurements and temperatures for ventilation and other purposes?— Yes. 9. Your inspection covers the whole field of our investigations? —Yes. 10. As to ventilation, will you give the Commission your opinion generally as to the system best adapted for your district? —There is no doubt that mechanical ventilation by fan is the best. 11. What have you found from observation in regard to sanitary appliances in the mine? — As far as the gold-mines of the Thames are concerned, I have not found that the miners use the underground workings for depositing excreta at all. They appear to go outside to the surface. In some cases pans have been provided. 12. Do you consider that in mines worked from shafts it would be convenient to the miners if pans and sanitary appliances were provided?— Certainly I do. 13. Would you suggest its being made compulsory upon the men to use the conveniences provided in the underground workings? —Certainly. I should strongly object if I found any men doing otherwise. 14. Have you any suggestions or opinions to offer with regard to change and bath houses, either as to the necessity for them or as to the amount of use that would be made of them if they were provided? —In the gold-mines at the Thames we have change-houses at nearly every mine. 15. Are they in a satisfactory condition?. Are they reasonably clean, and is there sufficient accommodation for the purpose?— Well, they might be kept cleaner, in two ways: waste paper is allowed to lie about, and the miners should take their clothes home for washing more regularly. There would then not be that stuffiness which is caused by clothes being dried. Some change-rooms have drying apparatus and some have not. Some of them —the May Queen, for instance —have proper enamelled baths. 16. Have you had any experience at all, apart from your district, of the use of baths by miners I —Yes, I was Assistant Inspector at Waihi for three years, and there the Waihi Company have installed what might be called an ideal system of change-rooms and baths. The Waihi Grand Junction have the same, and the miners make very good use of them, especially the younger men who are boarding. The married men seem to prefer going home. 17. A reasonable proportion of the men use the baths provided?— Yes.

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18. As to accidents and the cause of accidents: have you any opinion to oSer to the Commission as to the number of holes you would consider it possible to fire by fuse, and whether or not electricity should be used in firing shots?—l think that no man should light more than four holes with fuse. 19. For more than four electricity should be used? —No, not extensively; but the battery should be used in all sinking shafts, deep winzes, and long drives where they are using rock-drills. That should be made compulsory. Electric batteries are expensive, and every one does not seem to have the knack of using them. 20. Would you suggest that for firing by fuse there should be a regulation to prevent a man from firing more than four shots?— Yes. There is a practice at Karangahake and Waihi, where ore comes down in large rocks too big to spawl. The miners lay one, two, or more cartridges of gelignite on the rock with a short fuse, sometimes placing a piece of clay over the explosive, and at other times merely putting a stone over it. When going off for crib they light perhaps a dozen of these. Sometimes No. 1 goes off before No. 2or No. 3, and the fragments of rock from the first shot removes the rock over No. 3. The result is that pieces of explosive are scattered about the stope. The primer with the detonator explodes, but the others do not, and consequently the result is that you get gelignite scattered all over the place. 21. Gelignite explodes by percussion the same as dynamite?— Yes, that is so. 22. You think that practice should be stopped? —It should be limited to about four shots in a series—that is, in one stope. They should not be allowed to fire more than four at one time. 23. How would that remove the danger you refer to? Supposing one went off, and it blew the stone and clay away, the chances would not be so great perhaps, but the result would be the same? —But it reduces the risk to a minimum, and that seems to be as much as can be done. 24. They do not plaster it in, but just lay it loosely?— Yes, and sometimes put it in a little cavity if there is one. As far as accidents are concerned, the Thames is very free from them. Of course, you must bear in mind there is only a small number of men employed, that the lodes are narrow, and the stopes are low. 25. What is your opinion about high stopes?—lt was a rule laid down by the late Mr. Coutts, Inspector of Mines, and observed by him, that stopes should not be more than 8 ft. high; but we had a serious difficulty in carrying out that principle. 26. Is there any power to carry that out? —No; it was proposed in the draft of the 1910 Act, but was not carried. 27. Do you think it is advisable to fix a standard height, with a discretion given to the Inspector to increase or diminish it according to the nature of the ground? —Yes, I do, but I think the maximum should be 9 ft. 28. Even the maximum of his discretion ought to be 9 ft. ?—Yes. Ihe reason is that workmen cannot examine with a pick anything higher than 9 ft. 29. You have heard the evidence with regard to windlasses : have you any opinion to offer as to the desirability or suitability of cog-wheels on windlasses? —While I was Assistant Inspector at Waihi Mr. Williams and Mr. Gilmour, the managers, were experimenting with this cog and pawl, and the first they got out was cast-metal, which did not answer the purpose, because it broke. They got out another one, and it worked very well. I think they ought to be fixed on every windlass where they are sinking a shaft or winze. The greatest risk is in raising a full bucket, because you have a weight, and I have known of several accidents happening when the handle has slipped out of the man's hand. 30. They have not the reversible pawl?—l do not see how it would work. 31. Have you any other suggestion to make either as to the temperature that should be fixed as a standard for hot places?—lt would be rather a difficult thing to fix a standard temperature. 32. What would you suggest as a test for hot places?—l agree with the opinion expressed in the report of the British Royal Commission on Mines as quoted by Mr. Whitley. It is a very difficult matter to fix a standard. The same conditions do not prevail at every mine, nor in every place in one mine. There arc several things which ought to be taken into consideration when fixing a standard temperature for a six-hour place. A wet place may be considered a six-hour place, and a very high temperature may also be considered a sufficient reason. The vitiated air, as referred to in the Commission's report, would be another, and the presence of CO 3 would also require to be taken into consideration. 33. Would not some of these be reasons for not fixing six-hour places, but for stopping the work until the place was cleared? —Some of those conditions might be present, but in insufficient quantities to warrant the stopping of work altogether in that place. 34. Would you suggest a quantity or quality standard of ventilation in places where men work in injurious gases? Would you require more air, or a better quality? —Where possible I would insist upon a greater quantity of pure air. The difficulty in carrying out a fixed standard would be the question as to who is going to decide the matter. The Inspector of Mines cannot always be present, and samples would require to be taken, submitted to an analyst, and the results awaited. The manager might reasonably say " I will stop this place " in the summertime, and in the winter-time it would come below the standard, and they could again work ft on eight-hour shifts. Another serious difficulty is that to-day it may be above the standard and to-morrow below, so that changes from eight to six hours would require to be made from day to day. I am therefore afraid that there would be more trouble between the management and the ■workers with a fixed standard than under the present system. 35. What is your opinion of the reliability of the candle test which miners use to detect the gas CO 2 I—Well,1 —Well, the standard laid down by this " Chart of Mine Gases " issued by the Mines Department shows that with 1"25 per cent, the light will burn.

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36. Does it show any effect of the presence of gas of 6 to 8 per cent. ?—Yes, breathing deepens, which symptoms increase as the amount of oxygen diminishes, and drowns similar to water. There would be toxic symptoms, and at 25 per cent, there is actual danger to life. 37. What I want to know is whether the candle is a sufficient test for a miner to ascertain if the conditions are safe? —It is a fairly reliable test when there is only a small percentage of CO, present. 38. What would you suggest in the case where a candle showed CO 2 to an appreciable degree which produced an effect upon the miner : what would you suggest in regard to that place? A reduction of hours would not do any good ?—Yes, it might. A man might be able to work six hours in a place where he could not work eight hours; but in every such place, where possible, I would insist upon better ventilation. 39. Will you explain the method of your inspections? To start with, do you notify the management that you are going to inspect their mine, or do you arrive unknown to them?—l arrive unknown to them. 40. What do you do? —I examine their report-book, and the check inspector's report-book if there is one, and then go below, either by myself or in company with the manager or one of the officials of the mine. Igo round the whole of the working-places, main roadways, and air-courses, carefully examining the timber and ventilation-currents. 41. If you observe a defect what do you do?— Make a request that it be remedied. 42. Do you make that request in writing or verbally, and to whom? —To the manager, sometimes verbally and sometimes in writing. If the conditions are serious I put it in writing. If it is merely a broken set and not serious I make a request verbally. 43. Should it be a defect which is liable to cause danger to life, how do you ascertain if it is remedied?—lf possible, by making another visit at an earlier date than would otherwise be usual. 44. Should the law be broken, and your request not be complied with, what action would you take ? —Report it to the Mines Department and ask for permission to prosecute. 45. Have you recently proceeded against any companies? —Yes, four in this district. 46. For what? —Defective ventilation. All four were fined in this Court for breaches of the Mining Act and regulations. 47. Was that long ago?—ln April, I think it was. 48. Since you took this action have matters been improved ?—Yes. One company has installed an oil-engine and a 2 ft. Price's fan, which is giving every satisfaction and supplying more than the minimum amount of air prescribed by the Mining Act. The other two companies have asked for and are now under protection. Nothing has been done, as far as I know, and they are not working. 49. So that your action in prosecuting these four companies has resulted in two of them ceasing operations?— Yes. 50. What became of the men who were thrown out of work? Did they'obtain fresh employment elsewhere?— They would have to go to either Paeroa or Waihi. Ido not know what became of them. 51. Do you know how many men were thrown out of employment? —Six men. 52. Mr. Reed.] Are 3 r ou aware if any of these men had their homes at the Thames?—l think it is safe to say that nearly all of them had their homes here. 53. As regards certain tables which you prepared for the Commission [Exhibits 1, 2, and 3J, are these correct to the best of your knowledge and belief ?—Yes. 54. Are those measurements taken by you in cases where you were doubtful whether the lav/ was being complied with ?—ln the Deep Levels we were anxious to know what the blower was doing. There were large quantities of CO 2 present, and a high temperature. We were anxious that as much air as possible should circulate in the workings, and to know the exact quantity of air going in. 55. Does the table show the condition of the ventilation at its worst point?— Yes, at its most unfavourable point. 56. If a mine were well ventilated, would you have an analysis of the air made? —No. 57. So that really these conditions are only taken when you have any doubt as to whether the law is being complied with? —That is so. 58. So that they do not show the working-conditions of the mines in their most favourable aspect?— Yes, that is so. 59. The Chairman.] Do you take measurements of air and temperatures on your regular inspections, or do you simply judge from the atmosphere whether the mine is in a satisfactory state and pass it at that?—l never visit the gassy zone, especially the Deep Levels, without taking my anemometer and my hygrometer and using them, and also my ordinary thermometer for the temperatures. 60. Do you keep your records? —Yes. 61. Mr. Heed.] Do you enter them in a register?— Yes, I enter them in a notebook, from which the entries are transferred to another book in the office when I have time. 62. Do you take your instruments and take readings at every mine? Would that not mean an unnecessary waste of time? —Yes; I have had so much experience that I can tell if there are any defects. 63. How many mines do you think you inspect during the year —gold and coal?—I think my last year's report showed fifty-six gold-mines and eleven or twelve coal-mines. 64. And, on an average, how many times during the year do you visit each mine?— The mines receive three or four inspections each year. The mines in the gassy zone get more attention, because there is more danger. 65. So that you devote more of your time to mines where the conditions are less favourable?— Yes, that is so.

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66. Is portion of your time taken up by duties other than those of Inspector of Mines? —Yes. 67. Can you state how many days during the first six months of this year you were occupied with work not at all connected with your duties as Inspector of Mines?—ln examining roads paid for out of Mines Department grants, and supervising mine-managers.', firemen's, and deputies' examinations there were seventeen days actually spent out of the office. Altogether it probably means about twenty-four days' work in every six months. 68. Do you think your inspections would be more complete and more satisfactory if your duties were confined to the inspection of mines in the interests of human life and safety?— Undoubtedly, because I have such a wide district. A visit to the Mokau Coal-mine alone occupies about twelve days, and there are only about twelve men working there. 1 have not been able to visit it more than once a year. 69. In measuring air in a mine would you observe the quantity of the air in the stopes or at the dead-ends where the anemometer will not indicate? —As a matter of fact, the anemometer will not indicate less than 50 ft. per minute velocity. You cannot always get a current in the stopes. 70. It the air is sufficient to deflect the candle, will it not move the anemometer ?—No, the anemometer will not register less than 50 ft. per minute. 71. How would you ascertain the velocity in a dead-end? —As far as the anemometer is concerned, I think with about eight or ten revolutions per minute in a 6 ft. by 6 ft. shaft you would get between 2SB and 360 cubic feet of air. 72. Now, the law fixes the standard per man of so-many cubic feet?— Yes; a minimum of 100 cubic feet per man per minute, and 600 cubic feet for a horse, in gold-mines. 73. Would you read that as applying to the air entering the main air-return?—l should read that as the amount of fresh air going in. 74. What is your practice in checking it: do you take it with the air going in or distributed 1 It is for you to interpret the law ?—Wherever it is possible and it appears to me desirable I measure the air going into every section of a minej and then, in going round a mine, if the distribution is bad I note it when taking my measurements, and ask the manager to attend to it. 75. The Chairman.] That is to say, you require sufficient air to keep every part of the mine up to the statutory requirement, according to where the men are distributed?— Yes. 76. Mr. Reed.] You have power under the Act to require anything even up to 1,000 ft.?— Yes, the Inspector has that discretion. 77. When in any doubts as to the quality of the air, what is your practice?— Generally I take small bottles, fill them with clean water, carry them into the mine, empty the water out, and take a sample, securely corking the bottle in the vitiated air, label and send them to the Dominion Laboratory. 78. Now, what is the standard you adopt for condemning a sample? What is the minimum quantity of oxygen?—l9 per cent. 79. And the maximum of carbon-dioxide?—l'2s per cent. 80. So you have adopted the British standard!— Yes. 81. As regards fans and blowers in a deep mine with a single outlet, such as the May Queen and the Queen of Beauty, which ventilating-machine would you recommend —a blower or a fan? — A blower. When the scheme of the Deep Levels crosscut was under consideration there was a conference held m my office, attended by the representatives of the mine-owners, the Inspecting Engineer, Mr. Paul, and myself, as representing the Government, which proposed subsidizing that work, and the matter of adequate ventilation for the crosscut was then discussed. The great quantities of C0 2 likely to be met with led Messrs. Reed, Paul, and myself to recommend to the representatives of the companies the installation of a No. 10 Roots blower. From our experience at other mines and from our technical knowledge we were of opinion that was the best—and, in fact, the only possible—method of ventilating that crosscut. 82. Do you know the two winding-compartments in the Queen of Beauty shaft? —Yek. 83. Is it possible that under existing conditions they could be converted into an upcast and downcast shaft for exhaust ventilation? —They would be very defective for that purpose. The shaft is a rectangular one; the clearance of the cage is only about 2 in. at the end and about i in. at the sides where the guides are. The bottom of the cage is an iron sheet, and the shaft, when the cage is in motion, is completely blocked as far as ventilation is concerned. 84. Are you acquainted with the method of ventilation adopted in British collieries where circular shafts are employed ?—Yes; but in collieries there is greater airway. The shafts are circular, as you say, and only about 50 per cent, of the area at the very most is taken up by the cage. 85. In that case would there be adequate space round the cages for the admission of air?— Yes. 86. In British collieries is there sometimes a spare upcast shaft utilized for nothing else but return air ?—Yes, with nothing in it at all. 87. The Chairman.] Do you recommend an exhaust for this mine? —No. 88. Mr. Reed.] So that the winding-shaft in British collieries is sometimes used as a downcast? —-Yes. 89. Where is the fan placed? —Immediately at the side of the shaft. 90. Is the top of the shaft sealed up to the outside air? —Yes, to prevent any air forming a short circuit. 91. Is it possible to seal up one of the winding-compartments in the Queen of Beauty if a fan were put in ?—Not effectively. 92. Do the miners take advantage of the provision of the Act relating to workmen's inspections? —Not to my knowledge. 93. Do they in any of the mines? —No. Mr. Lucas, the secretary of the union, and the chairman went with me on one occasion when we were examining with a view to prosecuting.

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94. To what do you attribute this neglect on the part of the men to take sufficient interest in their own welfare ? —To carelessness. 95. Do you think it is the result of fear or intimidation?— Not at the present time. The managers and the men are fairly friendly. 96. As regards testing the cages, the safety-catch, the overwinding hook, and the rope, what do you insist on?—On a new cage being installed at a mine it is the duty of the Inspector of Mines to test that cage, and to give a written certificate to the manager before it is used, after testing it for automatic grips and making a thorough examination. It is the duty of all managers to test these appliances under section 254 of the Mining Act (44), and enter the result of their examinations in a book, which is open for inspectfon by the Inspector. 97. Do you see that that is done to the best of your ability? —I have seen it done on several occasions; on some occasions I have ordered examinations to be made when I have been there. 98. Is it possible that these tests are not made as required by law? —It is possible that they are not done regularly, but I believe that they are done periodically. 99. Do you insist upon the Act being carried out to the best of your ability?—l do. 100. Since you became Inspector has the number of mechanical ventilators been considerably increased in your district? —Yes; there was one put up at the Saxon, Waitangi, Watchman, Occidental, and New Sylvia Mines. 101. In a very large mine, what would be the number of electric batteries necessary if electric firing only were permitted ?—lt would mean that every party of men would require one. 102. Take the Denniston Colliery, for instance : how many would be required there, do you think? —The only practical system would be to appoint shot-firers, and give them the electric firing over a section each of, say, six or ten places. 103. Mr. Parry.] In gold-mines, too? —Yes. 104. Mr. Seed.} What would they cost? —Each battery would cost fully £20. 105. Would a large mine require very many?— The proportion would be about one battery for every ten men employed. 106. So that in the Waihi Mine, say, with five hundred men employed, they would require fifty batteries? —They might not require quite so many at Waihi as in a coal-mine. 107. And would they not require to employ skilled electricians to keep these delicate instruments in order? —They would require probably about two electricians at Waihi, and the others would only require to be handy men. 108. As regards the height of stopes, Mr. Bennie, you stated that the present statute does not give you power to take action in case of the stopes being too high?—No, I said that the 1910 amendment proposed to do so, but the provision was cut out. 109. If you turn up the Act you will find that subsection (11) of section 254 provides that " every excavation of any kind in connection with a mine shall be securely protected and made safe for persons employed therein "; and failure to comply with that section is an offence, is it not? The Chairman: Ido not think that would cover the height of stopes. Mr. Reed: Well, sir, the Government has taken action under section 261, which provides that in any case where an Inspector finds any mine or any part thereof, or any practice in or connected therewith unsafe, he can report it and take action. The Chairman: Yes, the word " practice " there would cover the height of stopes, I think. 110. Mr. Feed.] Mr. Bennie, in connection with regulating the height for stopes, would that be determined by the holding nature of the rock or back? —Yes, certainly; but I have always insisted upon their being not higher than 8 ft. That would be safe, because the men could reach it. I remember one occasion while I was Assistant Inspector at Waihi two men were driving a place about 13 ft. high, and I objected. The manager ordered them not to fire the hole, but they did so, and the manager threatened to discharge them, but I persuaded him instead to give them three days off work. , 111. What is your opinion of the idea to put a fourth compartment in the shaft for ventilating purposes? —I would rather have a separate ventilating-shaft put in. 112. How long have the regulations as to the use of sprays been in force? —Some considerable time—some years. 113. Do the men take advantage of them ?—Some of them do and some do not. 114. Do you think there should be any better precautions taken for the laying of the dust? No. 115. As to miners' phthisis, could you tell us generally what is the cause of it?—No, not from a medical point of view. 116. Do you think it originates with the dust? —No; the dust would seriously affect a man, but I do not know whether it would cause miners' complaint. 117. Have the men here on this field complained to you as to their conditions underground? —Very few; only now and again complaints have reached me. _ 118. What do you do when the men make such complaints? —I advise them to put their complaints in writing and submit them to the secretary of the union. 119. Have you ever received any complaint in writing?—No, not one; but the secretary has made some verbal ones, which I have attended to. 120 As regards the Mining Regulations, could you tell us what remedies or improvements you would suggest for the betterment of the men's condition ?—There are several amendments which require to be made, but just for the time being I cannot enumerate them. I have been very busy, and have not had time to prepare them. 121. Mr. Cochrane.} Do you regard the present system of testing the safety appliances on cages as sufficient? —Yes.

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122. You recommend electrical firers where there are more than four shots to be fired?—No, I did not say that. 123. Then what would you recommend when there are more than four shots to be fired?—l said that not more than four shots should be fired in a series by fuses, and that in shafts, deep winzes, and long drives electrical apparatus should be used. 124. Do you consider that should be made mandatory under the Act?— Yes. 125. The Chairman.] Does that apply to all shots unless in shafts?—l think that electrical apparatus only should be used in winzes, shafts, and long drives using rock-drill machines. 126. Mr. Cochrane.] Then, as to manholes in long drives for the protection of men from pieces of flying debris, what is your opinion I —Take the case of the Waitangi : when a round of holes is being fired no miner would like to be nearer than from 800 ft. to 1,000 ft., for the concussion. 127. The Chairman.] Is it advisable generally, in the interests of the miners, to have safety chambers? —Yes, at a distance of not more than, say, 200 ft. from the face. 128. Mr. Cochrane.] Would that not impose a very heavy cost on the companies? —Well, in some cases they are only small holes —say, 4 ft. deep by 4 ft. wide and 6 ft. high. 129. Would you insist upon these where there are sets of timber?— They are preferable to timber. ■130. Would you insist upon them?—lt depends upon the size of the timber. At Waihi the timbers are 15 in. by 15 in.; they would give adequate protection. Timber 9 in. by 9 in. would not, and where that size is used manholes should be provided. 13.1. The Chairman.] Would it meet the case if manholes were provided when required in writing by the Inspector of Mines? —Yes, I think so. 132. Would you suggest that it would be a workable plan to have the provision of manholes made compulsory on the request in writing of the Inspector; and should the workmen have the right to apply to you for manholes, leaving the Inspector to decide the matter ?—Yes, I think that would be the better way. 133. Mr. Cochrane.] Would electrical firing not give much better results than blasting?— Some authorities on that point differ, but, for my own part, I prefer a cut to be shot out first with fuse or by electricity, as permissible. 134. Would it not promote better results in blasting to use electricity? —No, I do not think so. 135. We have heard some evidence regarding the interference with managers by superintendents : what is your opinion as to that ?—I consider that the superintendent ought to confine his attention to the commercial side of the business, but the manager should have the full control of all matters concerning mining. 136. You think that he should be the captain of the shit) and have full control?— Yes. 137. Then, in case of accident, you report to the Mines Department and request permission to summons : do you not think in this matter you should have full control and be captain of your own ship ?—[Question ruled out by Chairman as being outside the scope of the Commission's inquiries.] 138. In regard to the height of stopes, your opinion is that they should not be more than 8 ft. high, so that the men could sound the rock? —Yes. 139. Would you put a specific provision to that effect in the Act? —As a stope rises the height should be fixed. 140. Now, as to the difficulty of taking samples of air : supposing the place is very warm, and you were not in the district, would it not be a simple matter if a hygrometer were hung in a place for a manager and miner to see, and automatically decide without calling you from a distance? Would that not relieve you of a great deal of trouble?—l have no desire to be arbitrator in the matter at all. 141. Would not the fixing of a standard temperature relieve you also?—lt would depend as to whether I was made responsible to arbitrate or not. If there is a disagreement there must be a man to settle it. 142. How can they disagree as to the reading of a hygrometer? —They could not disagree on the reading, but the hygrometer might possibly be interfered with. 143. And would that be your reason against fixing a standard, as an experienced manager?— As an experienced manager I know the many difficulties that are always arising. The miner is so insistent on getting as much as he can, and the manager is so insistent on getting the work done as cheaply as he can, that there are bound to be disputes. 144. Are you of the opinion that the matter should be referred to you?—l have no desire to have it so, but do not see how it can be avoided. 145. But, in the event of a dispute between the manager and the men, is it not at present referred to you?— Not unless they are working under an arbitration award. 146. Would the other way not relieve you of that trouble?—lt would, but somebody else would have to arbitrate. 147. You said that where the air was bad in dead-ends and elsewhere, where the anemometer would not work, you then tested by breathing and candle as to the quality of the air?—No, as to the quantity and quality. The deflection of the light would give me the quantity, and the effect upon the light would give me the quality. 148. And if you had both would the candle burn quite normally? —Yes. 149. But the candle will also burn brightly in bad air when certain gases are present: how, then; would you test it? —By taking a live bird or a mouse into the air of that place and observing the effect upon the animal. 150. But lam talking about the presence of carbonic acid? —I would take samples of the air and submit them to the analyst.

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151. So that you are not against taking samples of air ?—No, not where it is necessary; I have done it. 152. Do you get CO in any quantities in quartz-mining?—No, it is not present except in small quantities. 153. Is not that deleterious matter met with in the stopes when blasting?— Not very much. 154. Is that the injurious part?— Yes, it is injurious wherever it is found. 155. What is the injurious matter in the air in the stopes?—lt is the CO 2 given off by the breathing of the men; also from the candles and from a little gas from the explosives. 156. And that gas would be carbonic oxide, would it not? —Yes, I think so. 157. Do you know? —I do know, but just for the moment lam not certain. 158. Have you any recommendation to make as to the ventilation of rises?— The system generally adopted is the box method, with three compartments—one for air to go up into the rise, another for the debris from the stopes, and the third is a travelling-way with a ladder. By that means, they get a current of air passing along either by natural means or by a fan, and so get a circulation. Another method is to carry pipes up to the end and exhaust into the rise, and return the other way. 159. In spite of that, are the rises some of the worst ventilated places in the mines?—lf these means are adopted they would not be the worst; the dead-end would be the worst. 160. Are you in favour of fixing a definite distance beyond which men should not be allowed to work without pipes leading out?—No, because if you have a strong current of air it will drift into the face probably 30 yards; if you have a weak current it will drift 10 yards. It is a matter which should be left to the discretion of the Inspector. 161. We have heard a good deal about the ventilation in the mines here, to the effect that it is better under other conditions than it is at present, and I wish to ask you, Mr. Bennie, would the ventilation in those mines which we have visited be better in the summer-time than it is now?— Yes, I think this close muggy weather is the worst you can get. 162. And you consider the air good in these small mines? —Mostly. The other day when you visited the Sylvia you got the air in the worst possible condition. There was no velocity, but the air was fairly good. If it recurs like that often they will have to put a fan in. 163. You have heard the Royal Commission's report read by Mr. Whitley : do I understand that you disagree with the saturated standard?—l did not say so. 164. He said he agreed with the Royal Commission's recommendation : do you agree with Dr. Haldane that 78° saturated still air is the highest a man can conveniently work in? —Dr. Haldane said 80° moving air saturated was not worse than 100° dry. 165. You do not challenge what he says as to temperature?—No, because he is an expert. 166. Mr. Molineaux.~\ In any of your analyses of mine-air has the presence of carbonmonoxide been detected? —No. 167. Does the current of air enter a dead-end by diffusion of gases? You will have good air in the dead-end, but it will show no current: how do you account for that?—lt gets there by gravitation. The cold air will carry along the floor, and as it gets heated it will rise and go by the return along the roof. 168. The Chairman."] In connection with this candle test, I understand you to say that if COj were present to affect the candle CO might be present to counteract that effect, and thus the miner would be working in CO 2 and his candle might still burn brightly?—No, I have never known that state of things to exist so as to render the candle test unreliable. 169. Mr. Dowgrai/.] What amount of air, Mr. Bennie, would be necessary to dilute the fumes of gas from 1 lb. of gelignite? —That is a matter to which I cannot reply offhand. You are asking me questions which require calculation. 170. It requires a certain amount of air? —Yes, certainly. 171. Does it not necessarily follow, then, that the air ought to be circulating in the stopes?— The Mining: Act requires that the air shall be circulating in every place. 172. But where there is a greater amount of gelignite being used it follows that the air-current should necessarily be stronger? —Yes. 173. Did you take that into consideration when speaking as to whether the stope is ventilated or not? —Yes. 174. If the air is dull in a stope, and a considerable amount of gelignite is used, would there not be CO present? —There will be vitiated air, of course. 175. In reply to a question by Mr. Reed you stated that you tested the air always in the worst places : did you do that in the Deep Levels? —I think my statement to Mr. Reed was to the effect that these were the worst places under my supervision. 176. I understood your reply to mean that all the tests which you made were in the worst places, as it was not necessary to test it in the good places?— No. 177. Then you did not test the air in the worst places in the Deep Levels? —Yes, I did, right in the face, where I took the air-samples. 178. You apparently, according to the table which you have laid before the Commission, have not tested the air in the Deep Levels since March of this year?— Yes, I have. 179. Your last report in connection with the ventilation appears to have been made on the 23rd March? —Yes, but that is as to temperature and quantity of air. 180. You have-not tested it since then? —Yes, by volume. 181. Where is it in your report?—lf you look at the reference to the Saxon section you will find it. Under the Deep Levels, in the third column, " Where taken," you will find it referred to. 182. Were these samples taken prior to the installation of the blower? —Yes. 183. Have you taken samples since? —No. 184. Do you consider that that mine was adequately ventilated on Saturday when we visited it, from the chamber to the face?— The word " adequate " is very wide.

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185. What does the Act say?—" Adequately ventilated." 186. From where? —It says that the face and drives shall be ventilated and the air shall be kept travelling therein, so that they may at all times be in a fit state for working and passing therein. 187. Do you think that that face was in a fit state for working?— Yes. 188. Did you measure the air in the return?— That would be almost impossible. There is a drive 8 ft. by 7 ft. by 7 ft., which would mean about 60 ft. of area, while the minimum which the anemometer would register (ten revolutions) would give 600 ft. 189. Do you not think that efforts should be made to keep the shaft clearer? —Yes, an endeavour is being made. 150 cubic feet of air is being discharged out of the air-boxes in the shaft-chamber. Every 25 ft. there is an airhole for discharging the air into the drive. 190. Do you not think that, seeing that the blower is capable of producing more air, a greater quantity should be supplied ?—At the time of your visit a fresh flow of water and sudden inrush of carbon-dioxide gas had come into the drive, and made the conditions worse than they have been at any time since the Exchange reef was cut. 191. Are you aware that the gas in the Deep Levels tunnel increased to such an extent last night that the speed of the blower had to be increased? —No, I was not aware of that. 192. How do you know that the conditions on the occasion of our visit were worse than at any time previously?—By my previous examinations and long experience of working in mines. 193. In spite of the evidence given by witnesses that it was better than it had been for some time?— That was their evidence. 194. Do you know of any colliery in Great Britain where shafts are used exclusively for ventilation purposes without winding-apparatus in them? —No, I do not. 195. Is it customary for the shafts in the Old Country to be all sunk nowadays? Is it not a modern method ?—I remember they were round shafts when I was a boy. 196. Are they all round shafts in the collieries in Scotland, for instance? —No, not at all. 197. Can you name any that are round shafts?—No, not in Scotland; but in the North of England there are the Backworth, Maud, and Sea Pits. 198. Have you had any experience in firing shots with batteries? —No, but I have seen them used. 199. You seem to consider the cost to be one of the principal obstacles to their use?—l heard the mine-manager at Hikurangi say they cost £20. I simply quote his statement. I have not purchased any myself. 200. Would it surprise you that they cost only £4 10s. ?—lt would surprise me to hear that they cost less than £20, with cable. 201. In reply to a question by Mr. Reed you said that the use of batteries would add considerably to the working-cost. Is it not a fact that there is a vast difference between coal and gold mines, in that in the former the men's earning-powers depend upon, the material gotten, and that in those mines they are not permitted to fire their own shots? —I am not aware of that. There is nothing to that effect in the statute. 202. It is in the English Act? —That may be so. 203. Would it surprise you that in a colliery like Millerton, which employs four hundred miners, four batteries would be sufficient under the present system there? —Their workings must be very much concentrated if four would be sufficient. I know that in the Huntly Mine they have three or four shot-firers, and they are kept going continually. 204. Do you not consider that such matters as providing manholes and shot-firing should be put into plain English, and not left to you as Inspector to decide? —It is already provided as far as haulage-ways are concerned. 205. But the Act is very vague on the point. It says, " Where more than 10 tons are passing in a particular hour "1 —That section you are quoting provides for the safety of people travelling, and not as to shot-firing. 206. Do you not consider precautions should be taken as to shot-firing? —Certainly; but no man will remain within 200 ft. when shots are being fired. 207. The Chairman .] The point is, Mr. Bennie, do you consider that a standard distance should be fixed, or that it should be left to the Inspector to decide? —I think it should be left to the discretion of the Inspector. 208. Mr. Parry.] You say that mechanical ventilation is the best? —Yes. 209. Taking the Waihi Mine as an instance, do you think much better results would be obtained by mechanical ventilation than by the" natural ventilation they have there?— Yes, very much. 210. Have you not noticed in different places where there are stopes being worked that a good current of air has been passing through the level, but in the stope the current has been very small? —In one mine visited by the Commission they were taking out a stope. The mine had been closed for some time and close timbered up. They are now opening it, and there was no communication to circulate the current round. As soon as that stope is taken out I shall insist on better circulation. 211. You think it is possible to force the air up and round with stope doors? —Decidedly. 212. You said, in answer to a question put by the Chairman, I think, in regard to the use of baths and change-houses, that the miners at the Thames might take their clothes home and wash them more regularly. Do you not think that if proper provision were made for the men to obtain warm water and the use of drying-apparatus those men would wash their clothes more frequently than they do at the present time?—l have known very f«w miners would take the trouble of washing their own clothes if they had a wife or sister capable of doing it for them.

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213. Do you think the change-houses at the Thames are comfortable? —There is only one mine at the Thames, as fur as I know, which has baths at present. All the mines have change-houses, and are reasonably comfortable. 214. Do you not consider it in the interests of the health of the miners to have proper bathhouses and so forth?— Certainly. 215. In regard to the question put by the Chairman, and your answer, with reference to the danger of plastering stones, do you not think it is injurious to the health of the miners to plaster over explosives rather than drilling?— Certainly. They put sufficient dynamite on the stone to break it in order to save the cost of labour. 216. Do you think it is in the interests of the men to plaster those stones?— The plastering is not the serious injury, but the excessive amount of explosive used. If holes were drilled less explosive would be used, and consequently working in such places would be less injurious. 217. Is there not any other reason?—Of course, the,clay is blown into the air in fine particles, with the result that the men breathe it. I cannot think of any other reason now. 218. Do you not think that there is more poisonous gas given off from burning dynamite than when it fully explodes?— Yes. 219. Do you not think there is more dynamite burnt by plastering than when it fully explodes? —Yes. 220. Is the dynamite not more likely to burn when plastering is practised than by firing a hole? Is that not a scientific fact? —Yes, when there is incomplete combustion. 221. The Chairman.] Does incomplete combustion set up CO? —Yes. 222. Mr. Parry.] Then there are three reasons in favour of drilling a hole instead of plastering?— Yes, the danger, the excessive amount of explosive used, and incomplete combustion. There is also the effect of the clay being thrown into the air in the form of fine dust. 223. In regard to those men who were thrown out of work by the closing of the mines here as the result of your prosecution, do you not think it was much better for the men to go away than to risk their lives by working in badly ventilated mines? —I think the ventilation was inadequate and not fit, but beyond that point it was not for me to consider whether they were going to be thrown out of work. 224. In regard to air in a stope, you said you would be able to detect the presence of noxious gas by the deflection of the candle : is there anything else that would bring it under your notice? —I also said that I would detect it by my breathing; and then again I said that if it were necessary I would obtain a live bird or a mouse and note the effect which the air had upon it. 225. And would you not also take into consideration the state of the men working there? — No, I do not think it would be fair to take into consideration w T hether the men were perspiring or not. 226. And would not the high perspiration into which working under such conditions throws a man be taken into consideration? —I think I said that that is a matter with which I had nothing to do; it is the condition of the air which is of importance. 227. The Chairman.] Do you take into account the apparent condition of the men as a determining factor as to whether the air is bad? Do you observe their condition at all? —Yes, certainly, as a practical man I could not help observing that. 228. Mr. Parry.] Do you think the workmen's inspectors should have more power than they have at present? Do you not think it would be a help to the Inspector of Mines if they had more power?—My experience goes to show that it would not. One reason is that—at the Thames, for instance —they do not employ an inspector at all. 229. Have you any other reason? —I would prefer not to answer that question. 230. In the event of your being at Hikurangi, and the workmen's inspector had the power to go into a mine when a complaint was made, would that not be an advantage to you as an Inspector of Mines? —It depends on the workmen's inspector. It is my experience that there are workmen's inspectors and workmen's inspectors, and one man may find fault where another would not. 231. If a workmen's inspector had such power in your absence, would it not take the responsibility off your shoulders? —I have no conception as to what powers you propose to give to these check inspectors, and therefore I cannot answer your question. 232. In the event of your being away from the Thames, and a complaint being made which necessitated a telegram to you, if you had some one like a workmen's inspector to go and inspect the place, would that not take a lot of the responsibility off you?—lf your workmen's inspector, in company with the manager, inspected the place and reported to me afterwards, it would certainly be an advantage for me to know the conditions, provided they reported similarly and their reports agreed. 233. The Chairman.] Do you know of any cases of intimidation? —No, sir. 234. Mr. Parry.] What temperature do you think is an excessive temperature for a man to work in ? —I have already stated that I generally agree with the opinions expressed by the English Royal Commission on Mines. 235. Do you think that the winze which leads from No. 6 level to the May Queen shaft, where we travelled the other day, is in a safe condition? —The winze by which you went down is not a travelling-road. The work is being done in the level above that. No men were working down that winze. 236. The Chairman.] Does that winze comply with the regulations?— The ladders are placed at the most convenient angle. 237. Is it constructed in accordance with the requirements of the Act —that is the question?— The section reads, " A ladder permanently used for the ascent or descent of persons." That is not a ladder used permanently. 238. Mr. Reed.] In connection with that matter of the winze, the escape from the Deep Levels is by a separate shaft in the May Queen, is it not? —Yes.

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239. So that, in the event of an accident happening in the Queen of Beauty shaft, all the men working in the bottom levels could escape by the May Queen shaft, could they not? —No; that is, if the accident occurred between the 1,000 ft. and the 747 ft. level. 240. Supposing it occurred in the shaft above the 747 ft. level, could the men escape by the May Queen shaft from, the bottom level? —They have ladders in the shaft up to the 747 ft. level, and there is a winze by which the Commissioners descended. I think there is also another winze. 241. Is that winze a travelling-road in general use as denned by the Act? —No. 242. Mr. Dowgray.] Were the mines which the Commission visited a fair sample of the mines in your district, or were they the only mines using fans and blowers? —I consider they were the worst mines in the whole district, with perhaps the exception of the Occidental, where they are engaged clearing out a drive. When that is done the ventilation will b,e increased to comply with the requirements of the Act. 243. Those are the only mines ventilated by fans and blowers? —Yes, that is so. 244. Is it a fact that the fans have been installed during the last twelve months?-—No, not during the last twelve months. 245. How long ago? —During the last three years. Since I have been Inspector of Mines, and as necessity demanded. 246. How many of them have been put up during the last twelve months?— The fan in the Watchman only, I think. 247. And not that in the Waitangi I —No, it has been up eighteen months. 248. What about the blower here?—lt has been installed eighteen months or nearly two years. Immediately the Deep Levels got under way I ordered the men out, and they then obtained the blower. Boyd Bbnnie recalled. Boyd Bennie, Inspector of Mines, was recalled with regard to alterations requiring to be made in Exhibits 1 and 3 previously put in by him. Permission was given to make certain amendments in the figures in Exhibit 1, also to add to Exhibit 3 data showing air-measurements taken during the inspection by the Commissioners of the New Sylvia, Watchman, and Waitangi Mines on the previous day.

Waihi Courthouse. —22nd August, 1911. Matthew Paul examined. 1. The Chairman.] You are Inspector of Mines for the Hauraki Mining District? —Yes. 2. You provide a list of temperatures taken by you in the Waihi Mine?— Yes, for the period from 1909 to date. [Exhibit 5 put in.] 3. And also the record of temperatures taken by the Commissioners during their inspection of the same mine? —Yes. [Exhibit 4 put in.] Christopher McMillan sworn and examined. (No. 16.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. McMillan? —I am the secretary to the miners' union. 2. And what are you by occupation? —I have followed mining a good deal, but my duties as secretary to the union occupy my whole time at present. 3. You have followed mining for how long? —About four or five years. 4. And what experience have you had in the Waihi Mine ? —About two years and a half. 5. Have you had any experience of taking temperatures by wet or dry bulb? —No. 6. And upon what matters do you wish to address the Commission? —Well, my duties as secretary to the union bring me into contact a good deal with the men who meet with accidents, and I wish to refer to that subject. I also wish to speak as to ventilation. 7. Will you please deal with accidents first? —I have here some figures on the subject which cover the last twelve months. The injuries to hands and head from falls numbered seventeen in the Waihi field, as follows: Waihi Company's Mine, 13; Waihi Grand Junction Mine, 3; and Waihi Extended, 1. 8. Will you please confine yourself to the Waihi Mine?— Very well. I may say that these records are taken from my accident register, but I have not taken the descriptions of the accidents. 9. Were these accidents, or any of them, serious? —Yes, a good many of them were pretty nearly life and death. 10. How many?—l could not say, but I could mention two. 11. Were any of them fatal? —No, neither of them. There have been two fatal accidents in the Waihi Mine through falls of quartz. 12. Do you know the circumstances of these accidents? —One occurred about two years ago by a fall in a stope. , 13. Have you these particulars of your own knowledge—l mean the immediate circumstances surrounding the accident? —In connection with the second fatal accident I was present at the inquiry, but I did not visit the place. 14. It would be more satisfactory if the men who were present at the scene of the accident could give us the information ? —Yes, perhaps that would be best, though I heard all the evidence given at the inquiry. There were two fatal accidents, seventeen non-fatal ones (seven from falls of quartz), and thirty-six cases of poisoning during the twelve months. 15. To what extent were the men incapacitated who suffered from poisoning?— Well, they were ail under medical treatment and obtained doctors' certificates, principally for poisoned fingers and poisoned hands; 80 per cent, would be poisoned fingers, the result of bruises and scratches.

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16. Were the causes given in the certificates ? —Yes, they were mostly down as septic wounds. 17. Which doctors examined them? Could you get the medical certificates? —There are three doctors here, and about 95 per cent, of the men drew compensation from the company. 18. Could you get the medical men if necessary? We have agreed to subpoena medical men should the occasion require it?— Yes, there is one doctor who has been here for a considerable number of years, Dr. Craig. He could be called. There were thirty-six cases of poisoning from the Waihi Mine, eleven from the Waihi Grand Junction, and one from the Extended. 19. Any other causes of accidents?— Yes, there are those given under the heading of sprains. 20. Any cases of rupture?— Yes, a good many. 21. What is the primary cause of that? —Trying to move heavy trucks. There were forty-one strains for the twelve months. They were all medically treated. Then there were six blasting accidents for the twelve months—four in the Waihi Mine, and two in the Grand Junction. 22. Were any of those fatal? —No, but three were very serious. One man lost the use of both eyes, and one man lost his right arm. 23. Have you any first-hand information —whether they happened as the result of misfires or delay in leaving the place when firing shots? —No, I only know from hearsay. 24. Any other form of accident? —There were fifteen cases of injury to the eye in the twelve months. 25. Are they included in the others? —No. 26. How were they caused ? —ln various ways, but principally by blasting. 27. Are they included in the blasting accidents? —Yes, but there were thirteen injuries to eyes apart from the cases in which the men lost their eyes through blasting. There were also 116 minor accidents classed as accidents to hand and foot. 28. How many cases had to be medically treated ?—Every one of them ; all of these lam giving you have been medically treated. 29. In regard to these 116, have you divided them up as to the different mines in which they occurred? —No. 30. Have you any other form of accident? —That is as far as I can go for accidents during the twelve months. With regard to the fatal accidents, there have been twelve during the last three years; two of these, however, were not recognized by the insurance companies. 31. How long ago did they happen?— One man died within the last three months, and the other died about twelve months ago. 32. Why did the insurance companies not recognize them? —They failed to get satisfactory medical certificates. In one case the man was barring down quartz in a stope, and injured his stomach by ricking himself. He was taken to the hospital suffering from this rick, and afterwards developed typhoid fever when he had been treated in the hospital for four or five days. He was in the hospital for about six weeks. I am not quite positive where Dr. Kobertson is; that was the medical man who treated him. 33. Out of the twelve you mentioned can you say how they were distributed? —Six occurred in the Waihi Mine, one at the Silverton battery in connection with a water-race there, one at the Victoria battery, Waikino, and one at the Waihi Company's battery here. 34. Do you know the reason why the certificate was refused in the other case?— Yes, the man was struck on the nose by some part of a rock-drill, and suffered from haemorrhage for a week or more. After he had been off work for a fortnight he resumed work, and haemorrhage started again. After the doctor examined him he was taken to the hospital, and the doctor there said he was suffering from a long-standing complaint that was responsible for this haemorrhage. 35. Which doctor?— Dr. Craig. 36. What periods do these accidents cover? —The fatal accidents cover the past two years, from 1909 to date. It may be slightly over two years, but nothing I have quoted goes back further than 1909. The minor accidents I have quoted cover a period of exactly twelve months. 37. Have you anything else to say regarding accidents?— One fatal accident occurred from a fall from the cage, and two of them were caused by men getting caught in machinery at the battery —all the Waihi Company's mine and battery. 38. Were thesa recognized by the insurance companies? —Yes. 39. What period is covered by these accidents? —They occurred during the last twelve months, both the machine accidents and the fall from cage —October, I think. 40. From your own personal knowledge or experience, have you anything to suggest as a remedy in regard to these accidents? I want you to speak from experience and not from hearsay? —Well, I have had experience at both mines, and in regard to the cases of poisoning I would suggest that, in view of the higher percentage of such accidents at the Waihi Mine than at the' Waihi Grand Junction, there should be hot water installed in the change-house at the former, as there is at the latter. A man might have a cut on his hand, and when he has to wash in cold water it only closes it up and does not remove the poisonous matter. Then I would like to make a suggestion in regard to the accidents from strains. These are caused by trying to push heavy trucks, and, in my opinion, the grade on the travelling-roads should be easier and more uniform. The lines should be straighter and be kept cleaner than they are at present. There has been a fair number of men suffering from poisoned ankles through having to walk through the dirty water, and the ways should be kept cleaner and free from drainage. Then, as regards the accidents resulting from men being caught in machinery, the provisions are not sufficiently specified in the Act. The machinery should be better protected, and the question as to whether the Act is carried out or not ought to be considered. 41. Do you consider the provisions of the Act adequate?—l think so. As far as I know, the provisions of the Act are adequate if they were carried out to the letter. 42. Are the, requirements of the Act adequate in regard to cages?—l do not think so. There should be some sort of a protection for men when in the cages; a bar could be provided.

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43. But you have that protection already? —Yes, I think, the bars meet the case fairly well. But it is not provided for under the Act; it is simply done by the Waihi Company. 44. Have you any improvement to suggest on the Waihi Company's method? —No, 1 do not think I can suggest anything better. 45. Have you any further recommendation to make, in regard to blasting, for instance? —No, I have not had any experience further than the ordinary way of firing by fuse. I know nothing of the use of electric batteries for firing. 46. Have you anything to say with regard to ventilation? —No, I cannot set up to be an expert in ventilation. I have not had much experience in the distribution of air, most of my mining having been done in drives, and so forth. 47. Mr. Dowgray.] I understand you have been working in Waihi for the last two years and a half : during that time were you working in the Waihi Mine?— Yes. 48. In your opinion, was the mine well ventilated? —Well, it is about seven or eight years since I worked in the Waihi Mine, and I remember that in the particular place I was working in it was rather well ventilated for my liking. I was working eighteen months near No. 1 shaft, downcast. 49. In reply to a question by the Chairman you said there were seventeen accidents caused by falls : did these occur in the stopes? —I think the most of them occurred in the stopes. 50. Did the height of the stope have anything to do with them? —Well, it would be very hard for me to pass an opinion on that, because the men simply report the accidents to me, and I ask them the necessary questions as a rule, and hear no particulars of the accidents unless they volunteer the information. Ido not go into the ins and outs of what happened. 51. So that you are not in a position to say whether the height of the stopes was the cause of the accidents? —No. 52. In regard to the poisoned hands, do you know whether the water used in the sprays caused the trouble? Where does the water come from? —I could not say. 53. You would not care to drink it? —I do not know whether it is drain-water or whether it comes from the levels. 54. Has it anything to do with the poisoning of the hands? —I do not know. The poisoning may be caused by the mineral. 55. The Do you think the poisoning is caused by the water from the rocks?— Yes; also, in the face a good deal of dirt accumulates. 56. Mr. Dowgray .] You do not think the water is pure, at any rate? —No. 57. In regard to strains, do you attribute them to the condition of the roads, or has the weight of the truck anything to do with them?— The condition of the road would be responsible to a great extent, and, of course, the trucks are very large. 58. What is the carrying-capacity of them? —Of course, quartz varies a good deal in weight, but the trucks would be between 17 cwt. and 18 cwt. 59. The Chairman .] What is the system of work carried on in the Waihi Mine as compared with the other mines—wages or contract? —Contract. 60. Does that apply to the other mines?— Yes, all the mines in Waihi. 61. When did the contract system come in? —About ten years ago. 62. It extended over the whole of the period you have quoted? —Yes. 63. Mr. Dowgray.] Do they work three shifts in the Waihi Mine? Can you give us any idea of the proportion of these accidents which occurred on the 12 o'clock shift? —No, I have no idea. 64. Mr. Parry.] With regard to knowing the circumstances surrounding the accidents, is it necessary for you to make those inquiries according to your constitution? —No. 65. With regard to the Chairman's question as to the carrying-out of the provisions of the Act respecting machinery, do you think that machinery should be repaired while in motion?— Certainly not; the Act says not. 66. Have you ever worked in a place where the temperature has been taken?— Yes, when I was working in the Junction Mine in connection with the pipes to take the ventilation up to the men. 67. Have you any idea as to what the temperature was? —I remember in one part it was about 81°, but I forget whether it was wet or dry. 68. Would you regard that place as hot? —Yes. 69. Do you think eight hours was too long to work there? —Yes. 70. Judging from your experience in that heat could you suggest a standard temperature? I would suggest that it should be a good deal less than it was there. 71. The Chairman.] Who took the temperature? —Both Mr. Paul and Mr. Parry. 72. Where was it taken? —On the Empire reef in the drive in the Junction Mine. 73. In a dead-end? —Yes. 74. How long ago ?—Slightly over twelve months, roughly speaking. 75. Was anything done after that temperature was taken? —They paid a little more attention to the fan pipes by attending to a leakage, but it continued hot till I left. 76. Do you know the surface temperature on the day that temperature was taken down below? No _ 77. What time of the year was it? —In the winter-time, a little while before this time last 78. Mr. Parry.] Have you worked in stopes at all? —Yes, but not much; about a couple of months. 79. Which would you sooner work in, a high stope or a low stope ( — r or safety, in a low stope. 80. Do you consider mining a healthy occupation? —No, not by any means. 81 Will you tell the Commission as to the risk run by the men when being lowered with only one man at the winding-engine?— They are running a considerable risk, as there is a danger of the man suddenly taking ill.

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82. The Chairman.] Have you ever known of an accident caused directly or indirectly by the fact that there was only one man at the engine? —I do not think we have ever had an accident in Waihi from that cause. Still, there is always the possibility. 83. Mr. Parry.] What do you call " minor accidents " ? What is responsible for the majority of these accidents? —The contract system. 84. Have you found the men suffering from boils? —Yes, a great number. 85. The Chairman.] You do not include them in your list of accidents? —No. 86. Mr. Parry.] You say that you have had no experience as far as conducting air in stopes is concerned? —No. 87. Mr. Molineaux.] You consider there is great danger incurred by men travelling in cages : do you understand the working of a modern winding-engine? —No, I do not pretend to do so. 88. What would happen if the driver dropped down dead?—lt depends on the state in which he left the engine. 89. What would happen to the cage? —The cage would be caught by the safety-clips, but I have never seen it tried. 90. Then, where would the great danger come in ?—I have heard of the clips not acting. 91. Have you seen such a thing?—No, I have not seen it, but I have been told it has happened in this mine. 92. Mr. Reed.] Did you state that there were twelve fatal accidents in the Waihi Mine from the beginning of 1909 to date? —No, that was in all the mines in the district. 93. Are you aware whether, in connection with any of those fatal accidents, a Coroner's jury suggested anything in the way of improving the conditions or appliances?—No, I do not think so —not so far as I remember. 94. Have any verdicts been returned other than " Accidental death —no blame attachable to any one"? —Not that I remember. Ido not remember the exact verdicts in connection with the fall of the cage. lam not sure whether a rider was added. 95. In connection with the death of Berryman, was any suggestion made as to bars on cages? —It was suggested in the evidence, but Ido not know if it was put in the form of a rider. 96. Do such Coroner's juries consist of half working miners? —Yes, I believe that is so. 97. Were not some of the non-fatal accidents which you quoted somewhat trivial?— Well, they were sufficient to lay the men up for anything from a fortnight to six, seven, or eight weeks. 98. Did all those accidents incapacitate the men for a fortnight or more? —Yes. 99. You quoted a case of a safety-catch not working: where was that?— No. 4 shaft. I am just speaking from memory; I did not see it. 100. Was anybody hurt? —No. 101. What happened?— The cage went down to the bottom. 102. How long ago? —About eight years ago. 103. What caused the cage to fall—did the rope break?— No. 104. Were there safety-catches on the cage?—l do not know. But there were catches of some sort. 105. Was a certificated engine-driver in charge?— Yes; his name was John Hume. 106. Was not action taken against him by the workmen's inspector?— There was no workmen's inspector at that time. No action was taken against him; he kept on working. 107. The Chairman.] Do you know what caused the cage to break away?—He thought the cradle was down on the brake, and he intended to let the cage go down on to the cradle. The cradle was not there, and the cage went down to the bottom. 108. Mr. Dowgray.] Are all the cages in the Waihi Mine fitted with these safety-bars?—l have not been down the mine since the bars were put on, but I have seen them on the shafts. I have not been down lately. 109. So you do not know whether all the cages have the bars on? —No. 110. Have you ever known of a verdict at a Coroner's inquest being given against the company? —I have never heard of such a thing. 111. The Chairman.] There is another matter within the scope of the Commission which we have not submitted to you. We are empowered to inquire into and investigate the cause of accidents, and if you have any suggestion to make as to the tribunal that investigates these accidents we will hear you. Do you know of any more satisfactory method of conducting these inquiries?— Well, it is highly essential that workers should be represented on these inquiries. 112. The Mining Act provides that half of the jurymen shall be miners?—l mean a representative outside of that. 113. Do you mean that a workers' representative should have a legal standing at the inquiry to appear as representing the body of workers, with the right to examine witnesses?— Yes, that is what I would suggest. 114. But you are satisfied with the constitution of the tribunal? —-Yes; I would not be prepared to suggest any improvements. Charles Opie sworn and examined. (No. 17.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. How long have you been mining? —Over twenty years. 3. Where?—ln Victoria, Western Australia, and New Zealand. 4. How long have you been on this field? —About twelve years 5. Which mines have you worked in? —The Waihi Mine, the Grand Junction, Waihi Extended, Waihi South, and Waihi West. 6. How long have you been working in the Waihi Mine? —Between seven and eight years. lam working up there now. I have been out of it a matter of two years during that time. 7. How long have you been working there this last time? —About eight or nine months.

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8. How long were you out prior to this last spell?— About two years. 9. Have you had any experience of taking temperatures?— No. 10. Have you had any practical experience of ventilation and the system of distributing air? —I have worked in mines where the ventilation has been regulated. 11. Upon what matters do you wish to inform the Commission? —As to ventilation, sanitary matters, accidents, bath-houses, and change-houses. 12. Will you first give the Commission your views on ventilation? —Well, I find that the AVaihi Mine is not as well ventilated at present as it was formerly when I was working there. 13. Where do you work? —In No. 9 level, in the stopes. 14. In what way do you consider the ventilation not so good?— Formerly the system of mullocking was to put the filling down from the surface through winzes, and each truck of stuff that was tipped down caused a current of air. That system has been done away with altogether, and the present system of mullock shafts introduced. They are sunk away off in the country, and the ventilation is not so good, and it is much warmer. The air is not distributed on the levels— that is, the air coming from downcasts. The hot air and fumes come up from the level below, mix with the air in the level, and then pass up into the stope, so that the party working there gets the fumes and smoke coming from below. 15. Have j 7 ou any remedy to suggest? —Yes; I think these fumes and smoke should be drawn out from a fan from the bottom level and taken away to the surface, something the same as is done in coal-mines with back headings. I would suggest that doors be put on these levels where the current of air is going through so as to force the air up into the stopes —that is, the good air. 16. What have you to say in regard to sanitary matters? —I wish to say that the pans should be emptied every twenty-four hours. 17. Do you consider that it should be made compulsory for all men working in the mine to use them? —Yes, they should be made by statute to use them. I would also suggest that disinfectants be used in the form of ashes, or loam, or carbolic. It would be beneficial, too, if the place were concreted underneath to prevent soakage. It could be covered with soil or loam. 18. What have you to suggest in regard to bath-houses and change-houses? —I think hot water is badly required in the change-houses. Men coming .out of a hot place into the cold air or in wet weather need a wash in hot water. 19. What number of showers would be required, do you think? How many men to a shower? —I think about one shower-bath for every eight men would be reasonable. 20. To what extent are the baths at present used? —I think that nearly the whole of the men use them. Ido not think there are many who go home without changing. 21. That is referring to changing in the change-houses : how many would use the baths? — The great majority of the men use them. In the Grand Junction most of the men use the baths. 22. Have you any matters regarding accidents on which you wish to inform the Commission? —Well, the trucks are too large, and the roads are dirty and not well laid down. The men have to keep the trucks going fairly fast, as, of course, a truck travels easier at a high rate of speed than slowly. The truck very often jumps off the rails, and there have been many accidents through the men's hands being jammed against the timber. You are also liable to be caught with the handles. I think if the lines were straighter and better laid down, with the trucks lighter and the roads clean, fewer accidents would happen, and the men would be better off. 23. Have you had any experience from accidents caused by falls from the roofs or sides, or blasting ? —Not personally. 24. Have you ever seen any?—No, but I have known of a good number. 25. You are working in a stope : from a miner's point of view, what is the best height for a stope?—Well, what I would consider to be a fair and safe height would be where a man could touch it with a pick. 26. In order to give an arch to the roof, the roof would be higher than the sides, would it not? What height would your sides have to be? —We do not usually arch the place. Tf we arched it our stopes would be too high for the filling, and we would get very little stone. 27. Does that apply to stopes of any width? —I am speaking of wide stopes. 28. Have you known of any accidents happening through men not being able to reach the roof, either with bar or hammer? —In my opinion most of them happen that way; they are most likely to happen if you cannot touch the roof to sound it. 29. What effect do you think the working of lower stopes would have upon the working of the mine? —I believe it would cost a little more to keep a low stope; a man would require to have a bigger price to work it. 30. Would it have the effect of leaving more stuff in? —No, none whatever. • 31. Have you anything more to suggest as to accidents —in regard to the cages or machinery? No, except from hearsay. I consider that the battery should be used for firing shots in shafts and winzes and when sinking after they got about 50 ft. —that is, when rising up. 32. And as to the number of shots which should be fired at one time with a fuse?—l should say that not more than six shots should be fired in one place. 33. Have you worked a rock-drill or popper?—l am stoping now, but T have had experience of the use of rock-drills. 34. We are also empowered to make inquiries as to miners' disease : have you any workable suggestion to offer in regard to the prevention of that disease? —Only that the men should be compelled to use the water where rock-drills or poppers arc worked. 35. Would a popper work with a spray?— Well, I hardly think so; the popper would be done away with if they made the use of the spray compulsory, and perhaps that would be a good thing 36. Then it is not good for his health? —It would possibly be the means of his living a little longer.

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37. Mr. Dowgray.] What leads you to believe that they will not work with a spray? —I do not think they will work with a spray because they bore up holes with the popper. They use them in rises. 38. If you used a spray what would be the difficulty?—lt would not work if you put water into it. 39. So you think that accounts for them not using a spray? —Yes. 40. In reply to the Chairman you said that in the early days of the mine the mullock was thrown down through holes from the surface : that was when the mine was shallower, was it not? — Yes, it was certainly shallower then. 41. Do you consider that now they have got down to the deeper levels fans should be erected? — Yes, fans should be erected now that the heat warrants it. 42. Do you think that the ladderways leading up into these stopes should be altered? —Yes, a 4-by-4 ladderway would be a lot better than the present size. 43. Mr. Parry, .] Have you been working in a place where they have taken the temperature?— I cannot say that I have. 44. You have had a good deal of experience in working in hot places?— Yes. 45. What effect does the working in hot places have upon you? —Well, it has a very depressing effect. 46. As regards the idea of having two men on the winding-engine, what is your opinion?—l consider it is unsafe to have only one man at the engine when hauling men. 47. Do you think a standard height should be fixed for stopes?—Yes. 48. What height do you suggest?— Well, I would suggest the height should be such as a man could always reach with a pick. That would be a safe height. 49. What do you consider is the cause of the majority of accidents that occur in these mines? —I think the present contract system is responsible for them. • 50. Why?— Well, they do not get a very big price, and have to work at high speed to make a wage. 51. What is your opinion as to change-houses—the room which should be allowed for each man?— There should be 2 ft. for each man. 52. What is your opinion as to the use of bag and paper tamping?—l think it should be done away with. 53. The Chairman.'] Is it used to any extent by the miners in Waihi ?—lt is not supposed to be used, but men will use anything they can get, as a rule. 54. By whom is the tamping provided under the contract system? —By the contractors. 55. Mr. Parry.] In regard to the firing of holes, did I understand you to say that in your opinion not more than six holes should be fired at once? —Yes. 56. The Chairman.] What is your opinion as to the system of plastering : do you think it is safe?—lt is fairly safe. Of course, it is a quick method —quicker than boring. 57. But supposing the dynamite does not explode?—We generally examine the place for that sort of thing. We can tell whether the boulder has been smashed or not. If it is not, then we know at once that the shot has missed. 58. But does it not get scattered, amongst the debris from the other shots? —No, it is covered over with clay. If it missed it would still be covered by the clay unless it got dislodged with flying rock. 59. Mr. Reed.] As a contractor, how many hours do you work in your place, on an average, per shift? —About seven hours, I should say. 60. Have you ever worked in a six-hour place?— Yes, in shafts. 61. In stopes or in a crosscut have you ever worked on a six-hour place?— No. 62. Are there many places in the Waihi Mine being worked in six-hour shifts? —No, I do not think so. I could not say. 63. In what condition, as regards safety, are the ladders kept in the stopes where you have worked? —I think they are fairly good—that is, where lam working. 64. Have you always found them good since you have been working in the mine? —Yos, I have found them reasonably good. 65. Have you ever seen them out of order?—No, I cannot say that I have. 66. Whose duty is .it to keep the ladderways clear of the stone or mullock—the company's or the contractor's?— The contractor's. 67. Do contractors frequently throw tools down them? —Yes. 68. Does that not tend to destroy the ladders?—l believe it does. 69. Is it forbidden to do so? —There is nowhere else to drop them down. 70. The Chairman.] Have you any other place to put them down? —No, not where I am working. There were at one time empty passes. 71. Is there not a shoot , ?—Those are quartz shoots. 72. Mr. Feed.] Are there provisions made for passinar the tools down other ways than the ladderways?—Not in the present system of working while the passes are kept full. It is the only way. 73. Is it not very dangerous, as well as destructive to the ladders? —It certainly knocks the ladders about. 74. And after they are knocked about are they not dangerous?— Well, the workers generally repair them if they get into a dangerous state. 75. Are they now in good repair in your place?— Well, I believe there is a portion not too good, but it is a temporary ladder. 76. So that really you do not look after your ladderways?—l think we keep up to the standard pretty well. We hnvo had no complaints from the manager about them.

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77. Mr. Dowgray.\ You have heard what previous witnesses have said about the safety-bar on the cages in the Waihi Mine : are all the cages fitted with it?— Yes, all the ones I know. 78. In the early days of this mine were the passes always kept open?— Yes, they were always empty. 79. So that you used to pass your steel through them?— Yes. I would like to add that that was another source of ventilation which we had at that time. These passes allowed the air to come in, whereas now they are full. 80. The Chairman.'] Have you ever had an accident happen in the mine as the result, directly or indirectly, of having only one man at the engine?—No, but it may occur. 81. Mr. Parry. .] Do you think that it is essential to have a standard temperature fixed for six-hour places?— Yes. Charles Opie recalled. 82. Mr. Parry.] What is your opinion, Mr. Opie, as to whether accidents would be minimized if shots were not allowed to be fired by men depending upon the amount of material gotten, and that all explosives should only be handled by shot-firers?—l believe it would be a good thing if it were put into workable form. 83. The Chairman.] Can you suggest a workable form? —Yes, I think it could be done all right if a man were told off to a certain district to have charge of the firing of all shots fired in that district. 84. With a shot-firer who would determine the length of the hole? —The man who bored it. 85. How would it minimize accidents? —Instead of three or four men being engaged in the firing there would only be one. 86. Mr. Parry.] You think there would be less accidents occurring if only one man were allowed to handle the explosives instead of perhaps fifty?— Most decidedly. Thomas Kearney sworn and examined. (No. 18.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Kearney? —A miner. 2. How long have you been mining, and where? —Twenty-six years; Victoria, New South Wales, Tasmania, and New Zealand. 3. How long in New Zealand? —Four years this time. 4. Where in New Zealand? —Waihi. 5. In which mine? —Waihi and Grand Junction Mines. I have been working about eighteen months in the Waihi Mine. 6. How long is it since you were there before? —About twelve or eighteen months. 7. What is your total experience of the Waihi Mine? —Close on three years. 8. Have you had any experience of taking temperatures?— No. 9. Upon what matters did you wish to furnish the Commission with information?—As to the heat and ventilation. 10. Have you had any experience of accidents? —Not at Waihi. I wish to speak as to bathhouses and change-houses. 11. Tell us first with regard to temperature?— Well, I was working in the stopes here on the Edward lode on No. 8 level. It is too hot where we are working. I saw the temperature taken last February by the Inspector of Mines, and it was 85° there at that time. 12. Do you know what the surface temperature was then?—l could not say. 13. Was your place visited by the Commission? —Yes. 14. What was the temperature taken ?—B2f° and 83° at one end, and 81° and 82° at the other end. 15. Who took it?—l do not know. I was not on shift at the time. 16. In what way does it affect you?— Well, after a man has been working hard —say, falling stone —for about ten minutes he feels as though he were in an airship— ever\ r thing seems to be going round —and his heart beats like the kettle-drum. He has to sit down, or he w T ould fall. At times we get overheated and retch a good deal. It also brings us out in heat boils and abscesses. 17. Have you had medical treatment for any of these things?—No, I have not been examined for them, but I saw a doctor about six weeks ago, and he advised me to get out of the mine. 18. Which doctor? —Dr. Craig. 19. Have you any objection to his giving evidence before the Commission as to his examination of you ?—No, not at all. 20. And as to ventilation what have you to say?— Well, the stope in which I am working now is a mullock stope, and the passes are kept fillefl. We have three ladders, but sometimes these ladderways are covered over with quartz, and perhaps they may be covered that way for a week, and no ventilation comes up. I would suggest that in those hot places where the passes are filled there should be a ladderway to come up alongside every pass. 21. Do you approach your stope from No. 7?— From Bto 7. It is called Bullock's pass. 1 have been told, that when the Commission went in yesterday they took the ventilation at No. 8 level —that is where we get our ventilation from —and it was 79° and 80°. 22. Have you anything to suggest for the improvement of the ventilation?— Well, the only way I can see to improve matters is to have doors in the main airways in order to carry air up into the stopes. As it is at present it goes where it is not required, and should be distributed better. 23. What is your opinion as to bath-houses? In your experience, are they used when provided? —Yes, they are used a great deal, especially by the men working in those hot places. One perspires very freely even when working in only boots and trousers. A miner gets very dirty, and requires a hot bath, which should be provided. That also applies to men working the machines, for they get covered with dirt and grease.

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24. What proportion of baths should by provided —how many men to a bath? —About eight or ten men to a bath. 25. Have you anything to say regarding sanitary arrangements? —Nothing more than what the last witness has said. 1 agree with that. 26. Mr. Dowgray.] In regard to ladderways : you heard previous witnesses give evidence : would you suggest that a ladder be put up each pass I—Yes,1 —Yes, in hot places, and where the quartz passes are kept full. 27. Then there would always be one means for ventilation? —Yes. 28. Do you consider, along with Mr. Opie, that the mine ought to be ventilated with fans2 — Well, I have not had any experience of fan ventilation, but sometning requires to be done so as to distribute the air better and draw it from the stopes. 29. Have you had any experience with the trucks in that mine , / Do you agree with the previous evidence in regard to them?— Yes. 30. Mr. tarry.] Do you consider it essential that a standard temperature should be fixed for a six-hour place? —\es. 31. What temperature would you suggest?— About 75° should be the standard. Anything over that should be a six-hour place. 32. Have you made any complaints about the stope where you are working? —Yes, to the shift boss. We told him it was too hot. 33. Did you suggest anything should be done to improve the air? —We said that brattice should be put up on the level. They did that, but it did not seem to improve matters, for the stope is still just as bad. 34. Was any other attempt made to make the stope cooler? —1 believe there was a door put up in No. 7 level to send the air down to No. 8 and bring it into our stope. 35. Do you know if any men have fainted in your stope? —No, 1 do not know, but several of us have nearly done so. 36. In regard to the height of stopes, do you think a standard should be fixed? —Yes. 37. Why'f —A man should be able to try his stope to know if any danger is to be feared. He ought to be able to touch the back and roof with bar or pick, and sound it to find if the rock is loose or not. 38. What is your opinion re firing holes with electric battery or fuse?—l consider that if more than five or six holes are to be fired the battery should be used, because when more than that number are fired a man may miscount them. 39. The Chairman.\ What time do you think should elapse before a man goes back after a misfire? —No man should go back under one hour. 40. Do you think one hour is sufficient?— Certainly, two hours would be better. 41. Mr. Parry. J What is your opinion as to the employment of shot-firers in a mine?—l do not approve of them myself. I think that a man who bores a hole would have a better idea of loading it than a man going round. Of course, there aru places where they have shot-firers. 42. Do you think many accidents would be obviated if a shot-firer had a district in a mine and was a qualified man? —Perhaps they would, but I know myself 1 have come into contact with young fellows in the mine who were very inexperienced and were very careless. 43. The Is it not usual to fire shots at crib-time? —No, they fire them whenever they are ready. 44. In a large section of the mine would not delay be caused if only shot-firers were allowed to fire? —Yes, perhaps there would, unless a man had plenty of room to bore. If he were working in a small place it would be very inconvenient for him to have to wait for the shot-firer to come along. 45. Mr. Parry.] Do you think it would minimize the risk of accident if no man who depended upon the amount of material gotten was allowed to use dynamite ? —I believe it would. 46. In regard to bath-houses, do you think a space for each man should be fixed? —Yes, each man requires about 2 ft. of room. 47. Mr. Cochrane.] Have you worked with rock-drills?—No, only hand-drills. 48. Not with poppers or hammer drills? —Yes, hammer drills; but there is no machinery where we are. 49. Have you had any experience of the small hammer drill, called a popper?—No, not here. James David Blair sworn and examined. (No. 10.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Blair? —A miner. 2. How long have you been mining?—Ab6ut six or seven years in Waihi, ami about two years in railway-tunnels. 3. What mines have you worked in? —Waihi, Grand Junction, Extended, and Waihi West. 4. Are you working in the Waihi Mine at present?— Yes, on the Royal, No. 9 level. 5. Have you had any experience of taking temperatures?— No. 6. Have you seen temperatures taken?— Yes, when the Inspector of Mines has been round. 7. What do you wish to inform the Commission upon? —Sanitary arrangements, temperatures, change and bath houses. I have also known of a few accidents which occurred in the stopes 1 have been working in. 8. What is it you wish to say as regards ventilation? —There are places 1 have worked in on the ltoyal reef which have been very warm. 9. Was your place visited by the Commissioners? —Well, I did not know if it was visited. I was trucking in another level at that time. 10. Whose stope is it? —Horan and party's. 11. Was that the stope which was closed down on account of the temperature?—No, we had finished our place, and are trucking now. It was not closed down on account of the temperature.

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12. What have you to say about sanitary matters 'J Do you believe that sanitary conveniences should be provided in mines, and that it should be made compulsory ior miners to use them ? —Yes. 13. .Did you hear Mr. Opie's evidence? —Yes, and 1 agree generally with what he says. 14. (Jan you give us any information with regard to accidems in places where you have worked?— There have been slight cuts received by the men, and one man was shot while blasting. He got stunned when he had lit the hole by something dropping upon him, and he could only crawl away. 15. Was he killed J —No, he was laid aside for six weeks. That was about three or four months ago. 16. What was his name2 —George Faulder. 17. What have you to say as to oath-houses and their use? —1 think they are very necessary. 18. What is your experience as to the use the miners make of them? —Well, the greatest trouble is that there are insufficient baths, and the men are kept waiting some time. 19. How many men should go to a bath?— About seven or eight men to a shower. 20. Mr. Parry.] You have a good deal of experience of hot places? —Yes, rather too much. 21. What is the highest temperature you have worked in?—lt was either 90° or 92°. lam not certain. 22. The Chairman .] Was that in Horan's stope?—No, that was in the Extended. 23. What was the highest in Horan's stope? —87° or 88°. 24. Mr. Parry.\ Do you think it essential that a standard temperature should be fixed for six-hour places?— Yes, I should say 75°. 25. Ifou have heard the other witnesses give evidence to the effect that the size of the trucks is the cause of many accidents ? —Yes, and 1 quite corroborate what has been said by them. 26. What is your opinion as regards one man only being in charge of a winding-engine?— Well, I have often thought of the danger of a man having heart-disease and dropping dead while at the engine. 27. The (jhairman.\ Do they have a windlass on the winding-engines? —Yes, they have them now. 28. Is it a handy, workable system? —Yes, and I think it is a safe one. 29. Mr. Parry. j What is your opinion as to the standard height of stopes?—l should say they ought to be about 10 ft. from the solid—that is, 8 ft. stopes. 30. In regard to shot-firing, have you had any experience of the use of electric batteries? —Yes, I have. 31. What is your opinion as to its use? —For myself, I would sooner use the battery than the fuse in rises. 32. The Chairman?\ For general purposes?— Yes, for general purposes. 33. What percentage of misses do you have with the battery? —You do have misses at times, but I could not say the percentage. 34. Have you used them yourself ? —Yes. 35. Do you think that accidents would be minimized if the men depending upon the amount of material gotten were debarred from using explosives, and if all shot-firing were done by qualified shot-firers? —Yes, because where a man is stoping in a hot place and sweating when spitting the hole he is apt not to get a proper ignition. 36. Do you consider that a man who depends upon the quantity of stone he gets is apt to be more reckless than a firer would be?— Yes, a man under the contract system takes a good deal more risk. 37. Do you think that the contract system conduces to accidents? —Y T es. 38. Do you think that it would minimize accidents if shot-firers were appointed ?—Yes. 39. Do you think it a workable scheme, or would a considerable amount of time be lost?—I do not think so. 40. How are you going to keep in touch with the shot-firer, supposing that a number of men want him ? —Of course, a man could not fire for a very large section, and a certain number of firers would have to be told off. 41. How many men do you think it would take to do the firing in the Waihi Mine? —About ten or twelve might be able to do it. 42. Mr. Parry.~\ As regards space in change-rooms, do you think a certain amount of room should be provided for each man? —Yes, about 2 ft. or 2 ft. 6 in. 43. Was there any complaint made in regard to the ventilation in Horan's stope?—Yes, at different times. 44. With what result?— They put up some brattice and doors, but the heat still seemed to be there. 45. How long after the complaint was made were the doors put up?— About a month afterwards, I think. 46. Was the temperature reduced at any time to any great extent?—lt would be a few degrees lower some days than on others. 47. Mr. Uochrane.~\ I think you told us that the man at the engine might have heart-disease, and that consequently there would be danger : what do you suggest as a remedy ?—He should have an assistant present when they are lowering men. 48. Does nothing else occur to you as a remedy?—l have been told of an automatic brake which comes into action when a driver's weight is taken off the brake. 49. Then, if the driver were examined for heart-disease, would that not be a remedy?—No, because he might get it the day after he was examined. 50. But if these examinations were made periodically? —Perhaps that might fix it. 51. Have you been accustomed to hammer drills or poppers?— Yes.

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. 52. What is jour opinion of their effect upon the health of the miners using them? — Li they are used dry they are injurious. 53. Have you anything to suggest as a remedy? —They should be done away with, or water should be used with them; but Ido not know whether it would work with water. A small spray might be suitable. 54. Do you think that would be sufficient? —1 do not know. 55. And as to your suggestion about a temperature standard for a six-hour place, does the temperature vary quickly? —Yes, it may vary a degree or so. 56. Then, so that we may arrive at a fair conclusion, what length of time would you have the place at that temperature before-the six-hour shift would come into operation—should it be a day, or a week, or an hour ? —After about a day of high temperature. 57. Mr. Beed.\ You referred to a temperature of 75°: do you mean wet or dry bulb?—l do not know about those things. 58. Are you aware that there is a considerable difference?—l am told there is. 59. Would you consider that a dry-bulb temperature of 75° and a wet bulb of 70° would be too high for an eight-hour place? —I have been told that 75° wet and 80° dry is too high. 60. Then practically you know nothing about temperatures?— No. 61. Do you mean six hours from bank to bank, or actually in the working-place?— Six hours bank to bank. 62. How many hours would that be in a working-place on an average?— About five or five and a half. 63. So that you propose to make a working-day of five or five hours and a half in places which register 75° wet bulb ?—Yes. 64. Mr. ParryJ\ Do you think the temperature would vary if mechanical ventilation were installed ?—Yes. 65. My question is whether ventilation by fan or other mechanical means would vary as much as the present ventilation ?—I could not say exactly. Alfred Brown sworn and examined. (No. 20.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Brown?—A miner. 2. How long have you been mining? —About twenty years. 3. Where? —South Australia, Victoria, and New Zealand. ♦ 4. How long in New Zealand? —Fourteen years. 5. In which mines?— About twelve years in the Waihi Mine. 6. Have you had any experience of the taking of temperatures?—l have not taken any myself. 7. Have you seen them taken?—Y'es, in places where I have been working. That was a while ago. 8. Did the taking of that temperature give you any idea or enable you to compare the actual heat with the registered heat?— Yes, I have a fair understanding of it; it was 81° on the occasion I refer to. 9. How did that temperature affect you : did you consider it an excessive heat?— Yes, I reckon it was too warm to work eight hours in. 10. Do you understand the wet and dry bulbs? —No, 1 have no practical knowledge of them. 11. And, even with the 81° you quoted, you do not know whether it was by the wet or dry bulb? —T was given to understand it was 81° dry. 12. And that was too warm?— Yes, for eight hours. 13. Are there any matters in particular upon which you wish to inform the Commission?— As far as change-houses go, I would like to say a few words. In alluvial mines they have a different system. Each man has a place and a number. You take j-our clothes off and put them on the floor, and a man comes round and takes them away, dries them, and brings them back. That is a better system. Of course, the man is not required continually—only for an hour or so when the shifts are changed. Also, as to the bath-houses, they should be boxed off, and there should be hot and cold water. It is impossible to get oil off with cold water —you want a hot shower. 14. Do you mean for the places to be boxed off for privacy? —No; unless they are boxed off a man gets sprayed with the water from, the showers. Also, the showers should be boxed off from the basins. 15. How would it suit to have a system of stalls partitioned off with galvanized iron?—lt would not matter what they were made of so long as it kept the shower in. Then you want about half as many showers again—about twelve showers for a shift. At the present time, when shifts are changed, there are alwayg a lot of men kept waiting. When men are hot they should not be kept waiting too long. About one shower for every eight men would be sufficient. 16. From your experience can you tell us how many men use the showers? —As far as I know there are very few men who do not use them before going horne —in fact, hardly any. 17. Have you any other matters to which you wish to draw the attention of the Commission? —In regard to shot-firing, lam in favour of the use of the battery in rises, winzes, and shafts. It is much safer than the fuse. 18. Have you any limit of shots to be fired by fuse?— Well, I think five holes are quite sufficient to fire by fuse. 19. Have you known of many accidents resulting from firing?— Yes, I have known several in the Waihi Mine. 20. How were they caused? —There was the case of Faulder :he was blown up. In Marshall's case they heard two shots, but they did not warn him that there was more to go. He was fossicking round and struck the charge, which exploded.

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21. Can you suggest any remedy for minimizing the risk of such accidents?—No, but 1 want to say this : that if a miner is firing not more than, say, iive holes, and using not less than 4 ft. fuses, he has plenty of time to get away. Of course, at times you get a bad piece of fuse, but that is very seldom. It a man uses ample fuse there should be no accidents when firing five holes. 22. Have you any knowledge of other accidents, caused by falls from roof, and so forth? —I have known of them, but I have no personal knowledge of them. 1 have been very fortunate in the matter of accidents. 23. Have you any suggestions to make as regards sanitary matters? You heard Mr. Opie's evidence this morning : do you corroborate it?— Yes, I agree with all he said, but 1 would like to add that the sanitary conveniences should be kept a certain distance away from the travellingroads. 24. Where do you work in the mine? —On the Koyal reef in No. 9 level, in McDonald's stope. 25. How is the ventilation and temperature there? —It is not as hot as it used to be, but still it is hot enough for a man to feel the effects of it. 26. Was the temperature there taken by the Commission? —No. 27. Have you any general suggestions to make in regard to the ventilation? —I believe it would tend to improve matters if the smoke were not allowed to travel all over the workings. Pipes or fans should be used to draw the smoke from the dead-ends and places where the men are trucking. Also, I find that where the shafts are boxed in you get better ventilation. The shaft then acts as a chimney or flue, and you get more good air. 28. Have you anything further to suggest 'I —l would like to say that, in connection with the inquiries into fatal accidents, the union should have a fair number of representatives. 29. That is already provided for. There has been a suggestion made that some representative of the body of workers should have the right to appear and examine witnesses? —I consider that is quite right, because you want a practical man to inquire into those accidents. 1 think the suggestion is not unreasonable. 30. Are you working in stopes ? —Yes. 31. What is your opinion as to the height of stopes? —It has already been stated by previous witnesses that 8 ft. or 9 ft. is a fair thing. I think they should be no higher —they can be worked safely that way. By having them higher it is impossible for a man to test the back, and they would be far more secure if a man were able to sound them at any time. 32. Have you ever known an accident occur, either directly or indirectly, through having only one man at the engine when hauling or lowering men? —No, I have never heard of such a case. 4 33. Mr. Dowgray.] You heard the evidence as to the necessity for having the ladderways wider than they are at present : it was stated that that would assist the ventilation?— Yes, I would have them wider, 34. How does the ventilation of this mine compare with that of other mines you have worked in?— Well, as I told you before, in alluvial mines they work on a better method. They have airshafts connecting with the drive every 200 ft. These are connected with tlie surface. Of course, the mines are not so deep. 35. If this mine had a level driven to connect as a main return, and the stopes connected with that level periodically, that would have the same effect? —1 believe if they had two fans, with a downcast boxed in for ventilation, it would make a great improvement. 36. Have you had any accidents when using these trucks?—l consider that the trucks we are using at present are not fit for a man to push. They should have horses. 37. If the timbers were farther away from the roads would that not obviate many of the accidents to men through their hands getting jammed ? —Well, it would, perhaps; but there are no accidents where it is not so wide. 38. But still, if there were a stipulated distance between the wall and the truck, it would be an improvement, would it not? —Yes, that might save a good many of the accidents. 39. Mr. Parry.] Do you think it is very essential for a standard temperature to be fixed? — Yes; any man who works in 80° for any length of time soon finds that out. 40. What is your opinion as to the appointment of shot-firers to have charge of all shot-firing in the different districts* —I believe it could be worked, as it was in the Junction. 41. Were you working there at the time? —Yes, it worked satisfactorily. 42. Do you know of any accidents taking place under that system? —No. 43. What effect does the dynamite have upon you when handling it when you are hot?—lt affects every man more or loss ; it affects me a good deal. 44. What is your opinion as to there only being one man at the engine when pulling and lowering men?— There is a risk at present, but I think it could be easily overcome. It would require a second man to be there only for half an hour when changing shift. As far as I know there has not been any accident, but one is quite likely to occur. 45. And are you of opinion that there should be a standard height fixed for stopes?—Yes, I would make the standard from 8 ft. to 10 ft. 46. In regard to sanitation and change-houses, you corroborate what the previous witnesses have said? —Yes. Benjamin Campbell sworn and examined. (No. 21.) , 1. The Chair man.'\ What are you, Mr. Campbell?—A miner. 2. How long have you been mining?— Thirteen or fourteen years. 3. Where? —In different parts of New Zealand. 4. How long have you been working in Waihi? —A little over four years. I am at present working in the Waihi Mine. 5. How long have you been there? —Pretty nearly four years. 6. Have you had any experience of the taking of temperatures?— Not of taking them.

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7. Have you been present when any were taken?— Yes. 8. How does the temperature you are working in compare with that in which it is reasonable to expect a man to do a fair day's work in? How does it affect a man? —Well, I find at times that a man's heart beats a good deal faster than it should. I have known men who have had to go down to the level—they felt sort of seasick. 9. How long ago is it since you saw the temperature taken?—lt was taken some months ago; but we were not so high in the stope then as we are now. It is Elsegood's stope that I am working in. 10. That is the one in which there was some heating going on? —Yes. 11. Since the use of rock-drills has the temperature gone up?—We have never used anything else. We did not start with hand labour; we started with the machines. 12. Have you anything to say to the Commission in regard to that temperature?— Well, I think it is too hot for a man to work in for any length of time. 13. What do you mean by that?— The present hours are too long for such a warm place. 14. What do you think would be reasonable? —I think six hours would be sufficient. 15. And if you could get the temperature down to 75° you could work eight hours? —Yes. 16. Have you any suggestion to make as to the method by which it should be reduced?—No, 1 could not say anything as to that. The lode is naturally hot. 17. From the nature of the lode you think the heat could not be reduced to any great extent? -Yes. 18. is there any other matter you wish to draw our attention to? —No, I do not think I have anything to say as to accidents. I have never been connected with serious ones. Some of my mates have met with accidents, but not any serious ones. 19. How did they happen?— One man was struck with a windlass-handle over the eye. 20. Was there a pawl on the windlass? —It was what they call a crab-winch, and he was lowering something. It did not happen on my shift. He was found lying down. 21. Do you not use windlasses when you are sinking?—No; on that occasion we were sinking down to connect with a rise, and were putting the dirt down through a pass. I could not say how this man got hurt. He said himself it was not the winch, but that a stone came down the shaft; but, of course, we do not know. 22. Have you anything to say as to shot-firing, and whether the firing should be done by fuse or by electricity?—l believe in the use of electric batteries in shafts, and I think they would be better than fuse in rises also, but I have never used them. 23. In a face where a number of shots are required, which do you think is the better plan?:— Four or five is plenty for any man to fire with a fuse, but 1 would not care about using the battery in a stope. 24. What do you think about having a shot-firer to fire all shots : is it a workable scheme?— It may be workable if the shot-firer has not too large a district, because you could not wait all day for a man to come and fire your shots. 25. What is your opinion as to the size of the trucks and the causes of accidents while trucking?— Well, in the first place, the trucks are too big, and the lines as laid are uphill and downhill and any way at all. I find that trucking is the hardest work I have ever done. I would sooner go into a hot place. 26. About the curves? —The lines would be better if the road were made straighter, or if there was no grade. I have known men to strain themselves when lifting the big trucks when they got off the roads. 1 have hurt myself that way. 27. What is your opinion as to the necessity of bath-houses and change-houses?—l think they are very necessary, and hot and cold showers should be provided. AYe have no hot ones here, where we change at No. 4 change-house. 28. What is the present proportion of men to a bath, and how many men use them?—A good many—l could not say how many. They are used mostly in the summer-time, but also a good deal in winter. The basins are too close to the showers, which run along in a row behind you when you are using the basins. 29. Mr. Dowgray.] In regard to the temperature of your stope, about which the Chairman questioned you, do you not think if there were a greater volume of air it would be cooler, even though the lode was hot?—lt may clear out the smoke, but as soon as you exert yourself you feel the heat coming from the lode. 30. But it would not have as depressing an effect upon you? —It may not. 31. You heard what the other witnesses said as to the necessity for brattice-cloth or doors: would that not be an improvement?— Yes, I believe in swing-doors, but not in the brattice. It is a failure. The swing-door is much the better. There has been one put up near where I have been working, and it is a great improvement. It is the only one I have seen in the mine; but I have not been all over the mine. It sends a big current of air up the main way, but when you get into the stope you cannot feel it, because it is so wide. 32. If the ladderway were wider there would be more air going up ?-—Yes, I suppose so. 33. Mr. Parry.] You think it is very essential to have a standard temperature for six-hour places?— Yes. 34. What temperature would you suggest?—l think about 75° or 76° is quite hot enough for a man to work eight hours. - 35. Have you ever had much experience of working in ends and shaft-sinking?—l have worked in a couple of ends in the Waihi Mine. They were pretty hot. 36. The Chairman.] Can you say what temperature they were?—No, I do not remember any one taking the temperature. It may have been taken during another shift. That was shortly after I first came. . ...

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37. Do you know the difference between the wet and the dry bulb? —No. 38. Mr. Parry.'] In regard to the appointment of a shot-firer in charge of each district, do you think that would have the effect of minimizing accidents at present caused by the handling of dynamite?— Yes, I believe it would. 39. Does the dynamite have any injurious effect upon you?— Yes, there have been times when I have been so overcome by it that I have had to ask the-shift boss to let me up. It affects me in the head. 40. Do you retch at all from the effect of it? —Occasionally. 41. I would like to know your opinion as to the necessity for appointing an assistant to the engine-driver? —I expect it would make matters a good deal safer. 42. Have you known many accidents resulting from firing in any other place but Waihi ? — Yes, I had a mate killed in the Talisman. Ido not know what happened, whether the first shot ran or whether he was spitting too many holes —he was firing about eight or nine. A hole in the corner was left, and the shot went off and injured him. 43. Do you feel any ill effect from mining?— Yes, I do. I know that I could not do the work now which I used to get through before I started mining. 44. You also think the trucks are too heavy? —Yes. 45. What do you think is responsible for the majority of the accidents which take place at Waihi? —It is the contract system under which we work. 46. Did your party ask for the door to be placed in the level —did you make any complaints? —Yes, complaints were made to the shift bosses pretty often. I was present in the stope when it was mentioned to Mr. Gilmour, and the door was put up shortly afterwards. 47. You corroborate the evidence of previous witnesses in regard to the change-houses and sanitation ? —Yes. 48. Mr. Cochrane.'] You say you desire the standard temperature to be fixed at 75° or 76° : what do you desire if it rose above that?— Shorter hours. Six hours would be a fair thing. 49. And would you allow any time to elapse in which the thermometer stood at that before the six-hour shifts were actually started ?—Yes, I would give it a day or two to see if it got any cooler. 50. As to electric firing, do you favour the use of the battery in drives as well as in rises? — No, Ido not. I would sooner use the fuse in the face —that is, provided the drive was not wet. Where it is wet the battery is the better. 51. As to swing-doors, do you think they would be efficient in providing really good ventilation?— They would in some of the stopes, but where the lode is naturally hot I do not think the ventilation would be much improved by their use. They might cause a draught and clear the stope of smoke, but it would not be much cooler. 52. I think you said you worked with machine drills? —Yes. 53. Have you the small popper or hammer drill?—l have never worked a popper. 54. Mr. Eeed.] Have you ever known of a round of holes failing to explode when fired by an electric battery?— Yes; we put it down to a fault in the cables. 55. How many holes do you fire per round? —T have fired as many as sixteen, and only got two or three to go off. 56. What was the reason of that?—At that time we were using the short cap, and we understood afterwards that it is the long cap with a high tension which should have been used. 57. Have you ever experienced or heard of hangfires or misfires when the electric battery has been used? —No. I presume you mean, did it explode after I had worked the machine? No. 58. Have you known of the men in the Waihi Mine interfering with the brattice so as to take the air from another man's place and send it into their own? —No, I have not seen them do it, but T have seen the brattice pulled down. 59. Is it a common practice for the miners to pull it down?—l do not Enow of its being a common practice, but I have noticed it done under our stope. They do not exactly tear it down, but there are nails on each side, and when we are trucking the cloth is thrown over them. 60. Has the brattice been accidentally torn down? —I could not say. 61. Is it frequently torn down?— No. 62. You stated that the hardest work you have done in the Waihi Mine was trucking?— Yes. 63. Was that hardship owing to the heat? —No, that was owing to the size of the trucks, the quantity of dirt, and the bad lines. 64. So that trucking was more severe up«n you than working in a temperature of 81° saturated?— Yes; that is, recently. There was a time when the trucking was easier, when we had srood-running trucks, but the trucking under present conditions is harder than working in Rlsegood's stope. 65. Would you propose to make the truckers work only six hours also? —You could make it easier for the truckers by using smaller trucks, and so forth. 66. As regards the six-hour places, would you make it six hours from bank to bank or at the actual working-place? —From bank to bank. 67. How many hours would that be in Elsegood's stope? —About five and a half. 68. Would you only take half an hour going to and from your place—would you only lose half an hour out of the six? —We may lose a little more. 69. Do you include crib-time in the five hours and a half? How much would that be? —Not very long —perhaps a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes on a six-hour shift. 70. The Chairman.] You say that trucking is worse than working in hot places : is it the heat you complain about or the hard work?—lt is not the heat. There is not much heat on the levels, but usually n good current of air. Tt is on account, of the bad lines, and so forth.

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j 71. Mr. Dowgr(iy.~\ Have you ever seen any brattice-cloths, except the one on your own level, jn the mine torn down ?—Yes, there was one in the stope next to us. 72. It is not customary to put them up, is it? Those are the only two you have seen? — I have not seen very many, I admit. i 3. The Chairman.]- How much of the mine have you been over? — I have been over a good deal of it. I have worked in five or six places. 74. Mr. DowgrayJ] Those two are the only brattices you have seen ?—Yes, I think so, but I would not be sure. George Nicholas Jones sworn and examined. (No. 22.) 1. The What are you, Mr. Jones?—A miner. 2. How long have you been mining?— Between fifteen and twenty years. 3. Where?—ln Victoria, Western Australia, Tasmania, and New Zealand. 4. How long have you been in New Zealand? —About four years, all the time in the Waihi Mine. 5. Do you understand anything' about taking temperatures?—No ■ ■ 6. Do you know anything about the wet and the dry bulb? —No. 7. Have you ever been in hot places when they have taken the temperature?— Yes; where I am working at the present time it was taken, and found to be as high as 83£°. 8. Who took that temperature?— The workmen's inspector and the Inspector of Mines. It is Pearson and party's place on the Royal lode in No. 9 level. ■ '■'■■■'' 9. Is work still being carried on there ?—Yes. 10. Did you see the temperatures taken the other day?— Yes; it was down a matter of 5° or 7°. 11. What brought it down, do you know? —I cannot attribute it to any particular influence, unless it is that as the workings are exhausted we get a better current of air with not so much friction. : 12. There has been no alteration in the system of ventilation? —No, not that I am aware of. 13. When the temperatures were up at the higher point, how were you affected?—We used to perspire very freely, and working in mineral ore we broke out in boils all over —a sort of bloodpoisoning. I had to lose nine or ten days myself through them, and to go to Te Aroha to get rid of them. I was under treatment by the doctor, Dr. Pearse. ! , 14. Of Waihi I— Yes ; all mv other mates in the same stope were affected. 15. How are you affected when working in the temperature taken by the Commission?—We find it a lot better this last month or two. As the stope goes higher matters improve. 16. Do you find any diffictilty in working eicrht hours in that temperature?—No; it is a bit hot. It would be a great relief if we worked less hours. 17. Do you say that the present temperature has any injurious effect upon you apart from mere personal discomfort? —I find myself to be setting very short-winded, and I blame that for it. 18. Have you had any experience of accidents? —I have been very fortunate in that respect. I have not seen any in my immediate presence, but I have seen several narrow escapes. 19. How? —By falls of ground from the back. 20. What do you attribute these falls to ?—Thev generally hapnen when working down the ground after firing. Frenuentlv there are loose pieces in the back which may not be noticed, and you have to be very careful not to get under them. On one particular occasion, when my mate and I were working in this place, I heard something crack, and we were just able to get out of the way in time to avoid a big fall. 21. Have you ever known other cases of falls from the roof past the actual influence of the shot? —No. 22. Have you ever known any difficulty in sounding the roof ?—Well, we have been able to test it. 23. What is the average height you work to? —6 ft., or 7 ft., or 8 ft. Our job is a shrinkage job. Sometimes we have to leave big places. 24. Have you any opinion to offer as to how many holes a man should fire with a fuse, and when he should use electricity?—l have had no experience whatever with batteries, but I consider thnt a man should not spit more than four or five holes by hand, and he should have a fair length of fuse so as to allow him plenty of time to escape. 25. Have you had any experience of the truoking-wavs? —Yes. I find that trucking is very hard and laborious work; it should be done by horses in the Wa'hi Mine, owing to the size of the trucks and the bad roads. It is not fit fof any man to do. There is something wrong with the trucks we have at present, because, in the past we have been able to push them along with ease. Under the present circumstances, after a man delivers a truck, he is fairly exhausted. 26. Do you drill with a rock-drill? —No, by hand. 27. Have you worked the rock-drill of popper?— Yes, the rock-drill. . 28. Have you used the water with it? —Yes. 29. How were you affected by the dust? —With the water there is no dust at all. 30. You have had no experience with the popper?—No, and do not want any. 31. Have you known of any accidents being caused through one engine-driver only being at the engine when men were being lowered and hauled? —I have not known of any accidents, but I consider that the driver should have another man alongside, as they have at the Golden Belt, in Western Australia, where I have been, at change of shifts. 32. Do you think that could be done by keepinrr the man going off an extra half-hour?— Yes, 33. The man who is going on changes the men?—-Yes,

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34. Do you think the man going oS should wait until the men were changed?— Yes, then the men would certainly feel safer. If anything went wrong Ido not see what chance the men in the cage would have. 35. Is there any other matter which you wish to bring before the Commission?— There is the matter of ventilation. lam of opinion that the air in the mine could be distributed much better than it is at present by a system of doors, or brattice-cloths, or something like that. The doors are better than the brattices. They are half the time open. If they fall down nobody bothers to put them up again. If there were swinging-doors put in to distribute the air it would" be much better. You go down the crosscut of No. 9 level and the air would almost blow your hat off, but that air never reaches the stopes where the men are working. If doors were put up, and the old winzes or passes closed up where stopes are worked out, the air would find its way to the places where the men are working. 36. What is your experience in regard to ladderways, as to their size, and the condition in which they are kept ?—The ladderways where I have worked have been kept in good order. The only difficulty is that they are not large enougrh. In mines where T have been the levels have been every 200 ft.; in the first 100 ft. there should be 4 ft. cribbing. 37. Do you find that throwing steel down the ladderways injures them? —Yes, but they should have proper facilities for sending it down, such as shoots. 38. There are shoots in some of the ways I —Yes, there are; we have them in our place. 39. You think that would keep the ladders in proper condition? —Yes. 40. Mr. Dowgray .] Do you not think that 200 ft. between the levels is too great?— Yes, 100 ft. would be sufficient, both from a safety point of view and that of the laborious nature of the work, especially when the men are sinking or rising. 41. Have you had any experience of these rises or winzes?— Yes. 42. What ventilation method have they? —Compressed air. 43. You told the Chairman that there was little or no system of ventilation in the mine?- — That is so. 44. How does this mine compare with the mines on the other side? —It is the hottest mine I have ever worked in. 45. With proper ventilation the heat could be reduced? —Yes, I think so. 46. Mr. Parry, ,] What would you suggest for a standard temperature?— About 76°. 47. What is your opinion, in regard to the change-houses, as to the amount of space which should be provided for each man? —I believe that the change-houses are on a bad svgtem here. I could give you an illustration of a system they have on a claim I worked in in Kalgoorlie, the Golden Mile, and which would be beneficial to the men if installed here. They have there three different rooms. You go into the first and remove your clean clothes, hang them on a peg suspended from the roof, and then pull them up and fasten the string with a hook. Then you put your clean boots in a rack. You go into another room where your working-clothes are kept. After coming oft shift, if you want a bath, there are stalls with shower-baths and basins with hot and cold water. There are grooves between the basins so that one man's dirty water does not run into his neighbour's basin. You then go into the other room, and get your clean clothing. It is an excellent arrangement. The house is hosed out once a week, when every man has to take all his clothes out for the purpose. Then there is a drying-room in the change-house. There are two men in attendance when shifts are changed, and when you remove your wet clothes they take them away, dry them, and hang them on your peg. 48. To what extent are those baths used? —Nearly every man working there will have a bath at least twice a week. 49. How many baths are provided in proportion to the men?— One to every five men, roughly speaking. 50. Did you make any complaint to the company about the condition of your stope?— I am not sure'whether they complained to the company, but they did to the workmen's inspector. We said it was hot, and we told the shift boss we wanted more air. 51. Were you given to understand that the matter would be attended to?— No. I nivself suggested to Mr. Gilmour that we should have a blast of air sent up there so as we could work with more comfort and under better conditions. 52. What reply did you get?—l did not get any satisfaction at all—only that they would think about it. 53. Do you think a standard height should be fixed for stopes?—Yes. I think that stopes. especially mullock stopes, should not be more than 10 ft. from the solid —about 7 ft. or 8 ft. stopes. 54. Has there been much lost time through sickness in your party since you have been stoping? I have lost time myself, and so have others ; one is in the hospital now. 55. The Chairman.'] From what causes have you lost time? —Through boils and strains, 56. Mr. Parry.] What is that man suffering from now? —Drinking-diabetes, T am told, and nervous breakdown. , 57. Do you think the knocker-line should be used by any man other than the chamberman? N o ; though I have pulled it myself when there was no chamberman there. 58. Does that often occur?—-Very often. 59. Do you think it is dangerous for any other man to use it? —Yes, certainly it is. 60. The Chairman.] Are they allowed to use it indiscriminately?—l could not say, that. . I know we often have to ring the cage away ourselves. 61. How often does that happen?— About six days a week. 62. When men are being pulled up does a different man pull the knocker-line? —No, I have not seen that. Generally the man comes from the top to knock the cage away after the day shift. They may pull one or two cages if he is not down in time,

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63. As to the idea of having shot-firers, what is your opinion I —lt is a system i would not oare about at all. For my own part, I would rather fire my own shots. I do not see that it ie going to minimize the danger to any extent. Most men prefer to fire their own holes. 64. Do you regard handling dynamite dangerous or risky? —Yes. 65. Do you not think that shot-firing by a large number of men is more risky than it would be if only one man in a district were allowed to fire shots? Would it not confine the risk to that man?— Yes, perhaps; but I was speaking from results. ■ 66. Just from results, and not as to the danger?— Yes. 67. Would you favour the idea of the shot-firer being a qualified man and undergoing an examination ? —Yes, certainly. 68. Mr. Meed.] In reply to a Commissioner you said that 200 ft. was too far apart for levels : which levels at Waihi exceed 200 ft. ?—There are none. 69. Do you know the maximum distance? —About 150 ft. 70. So that the matter had no application to Waihi I—No. 71. At Kalgoorlie what was the distance—About 100 ft. 72. Are you working in the Waihi Mine?— Yes. 73. What is the maximum quantity of nitro-glycerine explosive you take into your place at any one time? —-About two or three packets. 74. How much is three packets, 15 lb. ?—1 do not know the weight. 75. Do you know that the law only permits 10 lb. of explosive to be taken in at once? —Yes, I think so. 76. How much is the maximum quantity you have used in one shift in one place?— Three or four packets on one shift. 77. You have known cases of 15 lb. being brought down? —Perhaps by two men. 78. The Act says nothing about the number of men; it has only reference to the place?— But if two men are working in the one place. 79. Where do you keep the detonators?—ln a tin, with a lid on it. Walt.bb Robinson sworn and examined. (No. 23.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Robinson?—A miner. 2. How long have you been mining i— About twelve years. 3. Where? —In New Zealand, at Thames, Karangahake, and Waihi. I have been at Waihi eighteen months this time, and I was ten months before. i. How long in between the two periods?— Ten years. 5. Where are you working —in which mine? —The Waihi Mine. 6. Have you had any experience of taking temperatures?— No. 7. You do not know the difference between the dry and wet bulbs?—No; but I know the different effects the hot wet and hot dry temperatures have upon me. 8. Have you ever seen the temperature taken in a dry and hot place?—No, not in a dry hot place. In the stope lam working in it is about 70°. 9. Have you experienced any discomfort from working in that temperature?—No, I do not think so—not at 70°. 10. What level are you working in now I—No. 10, Robinson's stope. 1 have worked in places that were a good deal hotter. Ido not know the temperature of them. 11. Have you any suggestion to offer with regard to the temperature?— Well, the foul air and smoke should be drawn up to the surface rather than be allowed to go up into the stopes. Even if we are not firing at all there is a good deal of smoke about all the time; it seems to be drawn from other stopea. 1 think that the air in the levels should be utilized, and the foul air should be drawn away from the stopes. 12. Have you had any experience of accidents from blasting or falls from the roof?— Not personally, but I have known of a few blasting accidents and a number of minor ones caused by falls. 13. In what part of the stope? —Kails from the back of the stope and behind. 14. To what do you attribute that?—To bad ground mostly; at other times it is the result of the stopes being taken too high. 15. So as to prevent the falls, could you not have a system of periodical examinations of the height of the stope?—l consider that the stopes should not be taken higher than a man could feel the roof. I should gay not more than 7 ft. or 8 ft. 16. That is at the highest part? —Of course, it may go higher, but it should not be broken any higher. Another suggestion is that a person should examine these stopes, and not leave the responsibility to the men working there. 17. Some one connected with the management i —Yes, I think that is a recommendation which the Commission might consider. The present practice is for the boss who comes round to ask the men how the stope is, but the men have to test it themselves. The management should take the responsibility. 18. Do you know of accidents caused in any other way —by machinery, for instance?— Only minor accidents, caused through falls of ground. There was one accident when a man was blowft up in firing. In that case I happend to be on the jury, and it appeared that the man had stayed too long. I think that not more than five holes should be fired out by one man at a time. 19. Have you had any experience of firing by electricity?— Yes, the use of the battery is fairly satisfactory. I would recommend the battery for firing in driving shafts and rises over 40 ft., but in stopes it is too severe for safety.

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.20. And.what about.drives?-r-Yes, a battery is .satisfactory for. drives, but more especially so in shafts and rises. .. . .. ... : v . ■ ■ . ■. ■. ■. ~ ■■ ■ . ... ■ .. .; ...-■; :. : ..:... 21. Have you had many hangfires when using the battery?— Yes, but not many, ■■: 22. What is the longest hangfire you have known?— About a second, just an appreciable length of-time. ■ 23. What length of time do you think a man should remain out of a place after a misfire?— It is questionable. I have known a hole not to go off for four hours. 1 certainly recommend two hours. " 24. Have you ever known an accident happen through only one man being at the engine?— No. .25. Have you anything to suggest in regard to the matter? —I certainly 1 think it would be better for the man to remain until the men were hauled, and so have two men by the engine; but I have never known of an accident happening. :: ' - ■--■■■■ 26. Have you had any experience of trucking?— Yes. 1 consider that trucking in the Waihi Mine is not fit for a human being at aIJ, with the size of the trucks and the state of the lines. 1 have had a good deal of experience in the union with strains caused when trucking. In this mine you have to push 22 cwt. uphill, and a man afteir he has done that is gasping for breath. The grades are certainly not steep, but they are not level —perhaps a rise of 4 in, or 5 in. in 300 ft. or 40 ft. The rails are too light for the size of the trucks. I certainly recommend the use' of horses for trucking if the present trucks are to continue in use. 27. Mr. Dowgray.] We have heard a considerable amount of evidence about the height of stopes, but none regarding the width. What do you consider a reasonable width? —Aboiit 20ft. to 25 ft. in good ground. Of course, it depends upon the ground. In some places it is not safe except with timber. ......... , , . . . - , ' "' 28... Are we to understand that nobody examines the places at all ?—-The shift boss comes round and asks the men, but nobody examines the places. 29. Judging from the evidence we have had in regard to this mine it would appear there is no system of ventilation?— No. 30. Mr. Parry.] Have you ever done any timbering?— Yes. 31. What is the system of getting the timber off the plats in the mine? —Well, we have 8 ft. or 9 ft. lengths. They are thrown down into the water, and the men have to lift them on to the trolly. We asked the superintendent to put up a staging, so as the men. would be able to slide the timber on to the trollies., It is a system of pure bullocking at present, and consequently men injure themselves, .... 32. Cannot you have it delivered in a certain way under your contract? —Well, they say they will deliver it down to the bottom of the shaft.. 33. But you have a written contract: could you not have a condition for certain appliances to be supplied for dealing with the timber?— Yes, I suppose that could be done. 34. Can you suggest to the Commission anything to get over the present state of things? —I would suggest that appliances be provided to lift the timber on to the trucks or up on to a platform. 35. Are you in a position to suggest a temperature for a standard? —I should say not more than 75° or 7b'° for an eight-hour place. Over that and up to 80° it should be six hours. 36. Are you in favour of a standard height for stopes?—Yes; for safety the management should not allow them to go higher than a mancan feel them all the time. 37. The Chairman.] Do you think that if the management were made responsible for the safety of the places that that would have a tendency to keep them down ? —I certainly think the management should have the responsibility as to the stope. The men should be told to take it to the height at which it is safe, and be compelled to do so. 38. Mr. Parry.] And, in the event of its not being possible to keep the stope that height, what standard would you suggest? —Timber should be used after it gets too bad, because with low stopes filled in quickly you would be able to work the ground. 39. You have heard the evidence with regard to change-houses and sanitation: do you corroborate that evidence? —1 certainly think the change-house which we use is far too small. 40. In connection with the appointment of shot-firers, what is your opinion?—l have worked in a mine where they had a similar system, and there were no accidents; but, personally, I like to fire my holes myself. Probably it would be safer to have shot-firers. They should be qualified men. : 41. What is your opinion of an , assistant engine-driver being appointed for the safety of the men?—l certainly think it would be safer, though I have not known of an accident to occur. 42. Have you known of many miners in Waihi suffering from scalds to the feet?- —Yes, I have suffered myself from that. It is due to walking in the water and standing in your wet boots air day. 43. Mr. Reed.] You said you considered a standard temperature should be fixed for a sixhour place, and that it should be 75°. How did you arrive at that?—l have worked in a place 70°, and think 75° or 76° would be a fair thing for an eight-hour place. -i. " 44. Do you carry a thermometer in the mine? —No. ■• - . • ■ -' ■'■■■ ...45. You have heard other witnesses quote the same temperature?— Yes, I heard one-this afternoon."".' ".'"'..' '.'. '}.'Z"~.~'. '.'"'' '■'.' ..'■ '."■'' "" .."' '."'". . '.""." ' '"'■ ' ' V.46, Have you arranged amongst yourselves to say that?—No, I have not spoken to them about it. ......... ....;.. . -. . 47. It is a peculiar coincidence? —It is not arranged. The stope I am working in is about 69°, and, considering that to be 69°, I reckon 75° or 76° would be a fair temperature for an eight-hour place. . ;

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Samuel EdwaSd WiLliiAtos sworn and examined. (No. 24.) i.. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Williams?—A miner. • 2. How long have you been mining?— About eleven years. , ri : 3. Where?— About nine years in Waihi and two years in Komata. "4. You are working in the Waihi Mine now?— Yes, in No. 8 level, Williams's stope. 5. Have you had any experience in taking temperatures?—No, but I have seen them taken. 6.'Recently? —Yes, by the workmen's inspector. He took the temperature in part of our stope. ". ~ ... , 7. Do you know the difference between the wet and the dry bulb? —No. 8. What have the temperatures registered that you have seen taken? —80° was the temperature when the workmen's inspector took it about four months ago. _ 9. How has the temperature kept since then?—lt generally keeps about that point—-it might be a little less and it might be a little more. On the occasion I refer to the workmen's inspector took it at a different place to that at which it was taken on the occasion of the Commission's visit. The place where the Commissioner took it was the best-ventilated place in the Stope —in the centre, right under the winze, with an open ladderway on each side. _. 10. How does that temperature.compare with the average temperature in your stope?—lt will be lower than the average. , , 11. How does the average heat which you have been subject to affect you when you are working? —Well, when I am working in the hot stope it has a decided effect upon me physically. .1 generally feel ill, and do not care about my food after the day's work is done. I have worked in hotter places than either of those, but I think a temperature of 80° is too high for a man to work eight hours in. ~ , ; , , , , , , . , 12. What is the highest temperature you have worked in?—l do not know what it registered,, but the candle bent over with the heat. That was in the Welcome lode. . 13. Did you find it any serious inconvenience in that temperature?— Yes, I did. 14. How long were you working"there?— Till the end of the job. ..-.....■■• 15.. How long ago was that? —About eight years ago. _ , ... 16. Well, have you any suggestions to offer in regard to the temperature question?— The only thing I wish to say is that I am in favour of a maximum being fixed for an eight-hours work. I really do not think a man should work eight hours in a temperature higher than 77° or 78°. 17. You do not know whether that is with the wet or dry bulb?— Yes, dry. '18. Have you had experience of hot wet places and hot dry places? —Yes; I do not know that it has been very dry, but I have worked in the dry crosscut. 19. And you were affected more? Could you appreciate the difference between a wet place and a dry place?—l do not know that I noticed it very much; it is a good many years since I worked in a dry place. Still, it had a very injurious effect upon me physically; afterwards I had to have a holiday. I was considerably emaciated. 20 How long had you worked in that hot place?— About two or four months. 21. And then you had to have a .holiday : how long?—lt really is not what a man should have, but what a man can afford to have. I could only afford to take a week or a fortnight, and it did not set me up by any means. 22 Have you anything to say on the subject of the ventilation of your stope?—Well, 1 would suggest that fans should be used to draw away the smoke and fumes from the bottom levels. Our stope is nearly all day filled with smoke which comes from No. 9, and every time they fire a shot it comes straight up and through one end of our stope, so that all day long we have to inhale the smoke either from our own shots or theirs. ~ , ~,,.. ■■.- -23 Have you had any experience of blasting accidents or accidents caused by tails ot root J —I had a narrow escape myself from blasting one time, when they were firing too many holes. I did not get away in time.'and was struck with small fragments of rocks. That was the result of firing too many holes. 24 That was done at your own risk ?-- Well, there were three or four of .us. 25 Have you had any experience of electric firing?— Yes, I have used the batteries. _ 26. With what results ?—I prefer the battery to the fuse in rises and machine drives g,nd Shaft 27 And how many holes could a man fire by fuse with', safety under ordinary circumstances 1 —I think there are some men who could fire from eight to ten shots, but for the majority, so far w mv experience goes, the maximum should be fixed at five. I have men run unnecessary risk when firing Some men become very excited after the first fuse is lighted ; . 28 What is your opinion as to the appointment of shot-firers. for districts in the mine*—l think myself it would be beneficial to the miner. It would minimize the risk. 29 In what direction »-In this way : a shot-firer would have no regard to the quantity he breaks and he would not take any unnecessary risk himself; whereas a miner who has to depend upon the iount he can break tries to get through his work as quickly as possible, and ,s apt to tak % r o! k D O .you mean that by overcharging the holes he tries to bring down more stuff ?-Yes, they Matters, you agree with the evidence given by previous witnesses? ~~ Y % What is your opinion as to the extent to which the baths are used by the miners where to u« the odd .howor ™cc or twice • week «en m Oil cold »e«ffiei. :

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33. You agree that bathing-aceoiniuodation is necessary and reasonable ?—Yes. 34. Mr. l)owgray.\ Have you had to consult a doctor lately about your healths —Yes, I did so last Friday. I felt I should have consulted him months ago, but I have been putting it ofi from time to time. 35. Would you mind telling the Commission the result.' —The doctor made a careful examination of me, as I told him I wanted a thorough overhaul, and at the conclusion he asked me what I was doing. I told him 1 was mining, and he said that my lungs were not in a fit condition to continue mining, and that 1 should leave the mine at once. I might say that 1 was examined by two doctors about eight years ago, and they both told me that my lungs were exceptionally good, and that my heart was also Very strong. 1 suffer now a good deal from palpitation of the heart. The doctor told me that was the result of mining-work, and he also said that my lungs were so affected that I should not work any longer. 36. The Chairman,] Does the doctor attribute it to anything?—No, he simply said that 1 was not to work underground any longer. I have had a little over a year's work on the surface during the last eight years. 1 only left the mine then because I was not feeling well. 31. Mr. Dowgray .J In connection with the question of the appointment of shot-firers, you heard the statement made by Mr. llobinson to the effect that some responsible person should examine the stopes : do you think the shot-firer could combine the two offices and fire his shots as well as make these examinations? —Yes. 38. You have also heard evidence regarding the necessity for a second engine-driver: do you know of any instance of an engine-driver dropping down dead or becoming suddenly sick?— No, I do not. 39. Mr. Parry.\ When you suggested 77° or 78° as a standard temperature for a six-hour place, you were thinking of the temperature which had been told you in the place where you had been working?— Yes. 40. Who do you think should be the best judge as to the effect of high temperatures —a theoretical man or a practical workman? —I think the workman should be, most decidedly. 41. Have you worked on the 12 o'clock shift during your experience underground?—l have not done so lately, but I did a few years of it. 42. Did you feel any ill effects from working on that shift? —Yes; a man never feels so well when working night shift. I did not, and Ido not know any man who did. He does not feel fit for his work, nor can he do justice to his meals. 43. Do you think it is possible to have a standard height fixed for stopes?—Yes; I think that if a stope is over 20 ft. wide in ordinary ground it should not be over 9 ft. high. When less than that width it might go from 10 ft. to 11 ft. 44. In the event of its not being possible to keep the stope at that height what would you suggest? —Timber is the only means. 45. Have you had any experience of a chamberman not being on the plat, and the men using the knocker-line? —Frequently. I have seen accidents narrowly averted at times, when men were ringing from one side or the other, before the men on the opposite side were in the cage properly. Any one can ring the knocker-line when the chamberman is not there. 46. Do you think that the ventilation in that mine is efficient? —No, 1 do not. 1 consider the place where lam working should be better ventilated. The smoke from the stopes underneath us in No; 9 passes through our stopes, and when they fire we get the smoke from them all day. It should be drawn out with a fan. 47. Do you think specified space should be given to men in change-houses ?-—Yes. 48. Have you seen many men suffering from burnt or chafed feet? —I have not noticed it lately, but I used to work in No. 7, and .suffered then a good deal from that sort of thing. 49. Would you sooner truck on footboards than on the bare mud and water?—lf 1 were trucking at all I would sooner truck on footboards, but [ would not truck at any price in this mine just now. William McLennan sworn and examined. (No. 25.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. McLennan? —I am a miner, and just now lam workmen's inspector. 2. Does your inspectorship occupy all your time? —Yes. 3. How long is it since you ceased mining? —About three weeks. 4. Before that where were you working?—ln the Junction Mine. 5. What experience have you had in the Waihi Mine? —I worked there about sis years ago, 6. Have you ever had any experience in inspecting that mine since you were appointed? —No. 7. Have you ever had any experience of taking temperatures? —No, but I havo seen them taken. 8. In the Waihi Mine? —Only those which I saw the Commission take. 9. Do you understand the wet and dry bulb?— Yes. 10. Upon what matters do you wish to inform the Commission? —As to ventilation, temperature, accidents, and change-houses. 11. As to ventilation? —I do not think the Waihi Mine is ventilated to the best advantage. 12. In what way is it defective? —The smoke from the bottom levels could be taken direct to the shaft by means of an exhaust fan placed there. I think it would be a great improvement to the men working above. Also, the air in the other levels is not sufficiently distributed in the faces. I think that if there were brattices placed here and there it would improve matters. The air would be utilized and forced up into the stope at different points. 13. And upon the matter of temperature have you anything to say?—l certainly think there are many places in the mine too hot for any man to work eight hours in, and the temperature should be reduced.

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14. How?— Well, if the mine were properly ventilated it would reduce the temperature. 15. And what have you to say about the fixing of a standard temperature?— The only temperature I have heard of previous to this Commission is the dry-bulb temperature. That is what our Inspector has always taken, and if it registered 78° or 79° it was quite hot enough for an eight-hour shift. 16. So that any temperatures that you have seen taken before were dry-bulb temperatures 1 —Yes. 17. What is the highest temperature known to yourself that you have worked in?—l have not had the temperature taken in the hottest places where I have worked, but the thermometer registered 72° in the hottest where I have known it to be taken. I am not quite positive upon that point. 18. What experience have you had regarding accidents?— Well, I have seen a few accidents from falls in stopes. 19. How are they caused? —By places not being properly dressed down after shots had been fired. 20. And have you any suggestion to make in regard to that matter?— The only suggestion I would offer is that the height of the stopes should be kept down. The ground may be solid when you pass through it, but if it is left there for two weeks or so the air gets into it, and by simply looking at it you cannot tell whether it is loose or not. 21. You have heard the suggestion that the management should take the responsibility of testing the roofs : are you in favour of that? —Yes; T certainly think that where the manager or shift boss comes through he should take a bar and try the stuff to see for himself whether it is safe or not. 22. Have you anything to say as to machinery accidents t —No. 23. You say you have been workmen's inspector for three weeks? —-Well, I have only been properly appointed for a few days. 24. Have you any records? —Yes, I have the reports of the previous inspector. 25. Who was the previous inspector? —Mr. W. E. Parry. [Inspection reports (two) put in— Exhibit No. 6.] 26. Is there any other matter which you wish to speak of? —In regard to firing, I certainly agree with most of the other witnesses that not more than five or six holes ought to be fired with fuse at one time. 27. Have you had any experience of electric firing?-—As far as I have used them, electric firing by batteries has been satisfactory. You certainly have a misfire now and again, but you know that a misfire by a battery is not going to go off, whereas with a fuse it is different. In regard to the proposal to have shot-firers T think it is a very good idea, especially in regard to electric firing, which requires a little experience, and if you had a properly qualified man for the work I think it would be a first-rate thing. 28. In what way do you consider it would minimize risk ?—To this extent: there have been several accidents in the district due to men firing too many holes and not getting away in time. 29. Supposing a shot-firer is firing with a fuse, is he not carrying all the risk—the risk is there, but only one man is carrying it?— Yes, but he is an experienced man, and is consequently not running so much risk. Then, again, when the man who is firing is depending upon the quantity of stuff he breaks he bores a hole 5 ft. or 6 ft., and by bullying it he can get two or three packets of explosive in the one hole. Then, possibly that hole may fail to explode and- it simply burns away, whereas if you have a shot-firer he would take all sorts of care of that. If a man were drilling a hole which a shot-firer could not charge sufficiently to bring down the burden it would be to his disadvantage, because he would be paving for his gelignite. 30. Have you ever known or heard of accidents with cages through having only one enginedriver? — : No. 31. Do you think, that the man at the engine changing shifts should remain so that the men are both present?—l am not altogether in favour of the proposal. I think there ought to be a separate man to go on. It is not right to keep the first engine-driver an extra time. There should be another man for the purpose. 32. Not even with extra pay?—No, the strain is bad enough at the winding-engine without extending the time. 33. But the strain is passed on to the new man? —But the other man would have to stand by: 34. Mr. Parry.~\ Have you ever known the knocker-line to be interfered with by men other than the chamberman ?—No. 35. Do you think it is wise for it to be used by other than the chamberman? —No, there is certainly a great risk attached to such a practice.

Waihi Courthouse. —23rd August, 1911. Tames Long Gilmour sworn and examined. (No. 26.) 1. The Chairman,'] Yqu are mine-manager of the Waihi Mine, Mr. Gilmour?—Yes 2. What certificate do you hold?— First-class certificate under the Mining Act. 3. When did you obtain your position?—ln January. 1903. 4. What total experience have you had of mining?— Twenty years. 5. Where? —A few months at the Thames, and the remainder at the Waihi Mine,

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6. You are aware, Mr. Gilmour, of the scope of our inquiry : have you any information to volunteer to us on any of the questions which the Commission is called upon to investigate? First of_ all, as to ventilation ?—Yes, lam aware of the different points to be dealt with by the Commission, and I have some information here which I can give. As regards the ventilation of the Waihi Mine, we have downcast and upcast shafts in which there are over 75,000 cubic feet of fresh air going into the mine. 7. How many men per shift have you working in the mine? —About three hundred (maximum). 8. Have you worked out what it amounts to per man? —Ihere are about twelve horses, which are allowed 600 ft. each, and that leaves about 230 cubic feet per man. 9. How many of these downcast shafts are there, and how many upcasts?— There are seven downcast and six upcasts. I have taken out the quantity of air which goes down the shafts. We have two or three other places, but these are the regular ones. 10. Do these downcasts all go on to the same levels or on to different levels?—To different levels. They do not all go to the bottom level. Two of the main ones go down to it. 11. At which levels do you split the air from these downcasts? —A certain quantity of the air goes into each of Nos. 8, 9, and 10 levels. 12. Now, as to the system of distribution?—We have doors put across the levels which send up the air through the stopes where it is required. ...13. And does the upcast deliver the air direct to the surface, or does it pass through the other levels?—ln the south section the air passes through one stope into another. 14. Does the air from one. level mix with the air from the other levels? —Yes, in certain cases. For instance, on the Royal the smoke from the bottom level would go up to No. 9 and throughone of the shrinkage-blocks, and then travel to the next level, No. 8. It might then go through the stopes onthe.: Edward lode and up to some of the stopes on No. 7, level. There are some cases where it goes through four different levels and the stopes on them. 15. What mechanical ventilation do you use?- —On the Reptile south-east crosscut we have a Roots blower driven by a motor : that delivers enough air for the men working there.. Tests have been made at different times, which have shown that for the four men working there..soo cubic feet of air is provided, . .... ■••.,■• . . .16. Does that supply of. sufficient air.come through one of the seven downcasts? —Yes; it gets its air from No. 4 shaft downcast. .. 17. Have you any exhaust fans? —No, nothing but the Roots blowers I have referred t0..... 18. Do you reverse them? —We have done so, but the men like the fresh air going in rather than that the blowers should be reversed. ; 19. What have you to say as regards sanitary matters? —In connection with that, I would say that we have the borough service at the mine. The cart comes to the mine twice a week, and brings new pans and removes the full ones. A man is constantly in charge of this work. Disinfectants are used, and each place is brattieed off so. as to prevent the air in the mine from mixing with the odour from the places. 20. Do you find that the men use the pans, or do they use the places in the mine? —The men use the pans regularly. I have known one, or two cases.where the men have not used the pans, but an example was soon made of them. 21. You consider it is a necessary system, and ought to be satisfactory ?—Yes. 22. You have heard a suggestion by a previous witness that some improvement might be made in the pan system ?—Yes, I heard a witness say that we should have soil there. It might be an improvement, but I think everything goes into the pan, and the soil is hardly necessary. 23. Are the pans watertight? —Yes, and there should be no nuisance caused by leakage. We have specially constructed the affairs so as to make the system satisfactory. We have given the matter a good deal of consideration. 24. In regard to change and bath houses-what have you to say?— The change-houses are large, and the one at No. 2 has 240 ft. of forms. A hundred and fifty men in all use it. 25. What is the greatest number that will use them at once? —Roughly speaking, there are forty-six to fifty on the nisjht shift, about three hundred on the day shift, and a hundred and twenty on the afternoon shift. There are three change-houses. 26. Are they convenient for the men when they reach the surface? —Yes. We have changehouses at No. 4 and No. 2 shafts! When No. 2 shaft is not working they come tip No. 4, and some come up No. 5, but now the shaft is in good order about two-thirds are pulled up No. 2 and onethird up No. 4. 27. And what use is imade of the taths which"you have provided?—At No. 2 bath-house we have nine basins and five showers, and about eighty men use them at changing-time. !>.::.. 28. What proportion of the eighty use the showers? —They do not all use them. The cold shower is not in creat request at the present time. 29. Would fifty out of the eighty use them? —I do not think so many as that use them. 30. What do you think the proportion of men to each shower should be? —About one shower to every twelve men, if they all used them. 31. You heard the evidence given yesterday as to accidents, and suggestions in regard to them? —Yes, we keep records of allthe accidents and all details in connection with them. 32. What have you found to be the most frequent cause of accidents?- —The most common form of accident is cuts on the hand. •■■■■'■•■ , ..-...,..-■ 33. What ate they caused by?•'■"•By sharp pieces of quartz running, down the bars- when the men are working with them. - :' 34. Do these cuts set up suppuration ?—-Some.i of them fester, but it. all depends on the condition of the raan*sbTood; : l: '::.■■:: ■;•-. -.: ■■:■■:""' :: :::-:: ■ ■■-'"■"" »

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35. Have you had many blasting accidents? —-We have had a few, but not many. •36. How were they caused —by misfires or firing too many holes? —We have had no accidents through firing too many holes, so far as my knowledge goes—not serious ones, at any rate. We had one man blinded when he was using a moil working in the bottom of a winze through striking something. We had two or three of those accidents in. the mine, and Tarn at a loss to account for them. The point of the moil must strike some gelignite. 37. That would point to a misfire? —It points to some of the gelignite having been left in the bottom of the hole by incomplete explosion. We have had three such accidents in the last ten years. 38. What is your opinion on electric firing?—We have had a good deal of experience of it in shaft work. We thought that, theoretically, if one shot went off they would all go, but that was not proved in practice, and now, as a rule, the men do not fire more than six or eight holes. 39. Did you attribute that to a faulty current?—We have been trying to find out the cause. We bought the best material, and I have seen Nobel's agents two or three times about the matter. We have had guttapercha cords which are specially made for submarine work, but found those worse than the others : there were more misholes. We use the cotton-covered wires, and put grease on them. 40. What percentage of misses did j'oii have with the electric firing?— They vary a great deal. The complaints from the men were numerous, and so now they only fire six or eight holes at a time. 41. What is your opinion as to the necessity for appointing shot-firers? —Well, they are not wanted at all, because the men we have working in the mine are intelligent miners, and they all know how to use explosives. 42. Do you think the appointment of shot-firers would tend to minimize the risk?—l do not see how it would do so. I think it would cause confusion and be found unworkable in our mine. ft would mean an undue loss of time, and with the number of men we have working underground it is an impracticable idea. 43. What is your opinion about falls from the roof and sides, and the height of stopes?—As regards falls from the roof, there has been, only one fatal accident from that cause in the whole history of the mine—that is, about twenty years. 44. You have heard a suggestion made as to fixing the height of stopes?—We are trying to insist upon stopes being carried up 8 ft. high, with filling , within a reasonable height of back, say 2 ft. or 3 ft. But there are times where there is a loose piece which is ordered to be worked down, which makes the stope higher, and which the men do for their own safety. But as a general rule we like to keep 8 ft. of quartz in the stopes, and 2 ft. or 3 ft. off the filling—about 11 ft. from the sollar. 45. Would a statutory standard make any difference to the mine?—lt ought to take into consideration that these places are fairly safe. As a natural contingency the difference of the ground should be taken into account. 46. You have heard the suggestion as to the necessity for a second engine-driver for raising and lowering the men?—My experience goes to show that there is no necessity for more than one man in the engine-room at one time, as if there were two they would be sure to get talking, and that might tend to cause an accident rather than the fact of there being two of them tending to avert one. 47. Have you ever known of anything happening in the engine-room to a driver which might have resulted in an accident, but which could not have occurred had there been two drivers present? —No, I have never known of such a thing. 48. Is there any other matter which you wish to refer to in a general way?—l heard complaints made by some witnesses yesterday as to the trucking-roads. One witness stated that our tracks were uphill. In that particular section I gave special attention to that track, and it is rfownhill with a loaded truck. 49. And uphill when the truck is empty?— Yes. As regards the straightness, we have to construct our roads according to the course of the reef, and that accounts for the tracks winding. As to the tracks not being clean, we have shift bosses and a man in charge of each section whose duty it is to visit the roads and working-places every eight hours and see that the}' are in good order. There are three managers, and one of them constantly looks after the stories. 50. What have you to say in regard to the management taking the responsibility of the safety of the stopes by testing the roofs and sides? —The present system under which the person working in the stopes tests them is the better one. It is the duty of the men to trim the roof after blasting. and work the stope generally in a safe way. Sometimes the shift boss orders them to test the roof with the bar in his presence, and sometimes he uses the bar himself. That is the system at the present time. 51. Mr. Molineaux.] Do you consider that the periodical medical examination of windingengine drivers would tend to reduce the risk of accident? —Yes; but there is provision already for that in the Act. They have to be examined once a year. 52. If it is not there you consider it should be? —Yes. 53. Are your winding-engines fitted with any appliances to prevent accidents? —No. 6 engine lias a steam brake, and the other engines have foot brakes. No. 2 has an emergency brake. 54. Will the emergency brake stop the cage in cose of an overwind—is it automatic?—We have no automatic brakes. 55. How often are the safety appliances on the catres tested?— Once a week. 56. Have you ever known the appliances to fail? —Sometimes when testing I have known something to go wrong —perhaps they did not catch —but not often. The weekly inspections find out these weaknesses, and they are remedied at once.

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57. What is the method of testing the grips on the cages?—We lift a cage off the clips and put beams underneath, 12 by 12. Then we have a hook with a lever and rope, and the hook is so fixed that it takes the weight and leaves the chains loose. The small rope is attached to the end of the lever, and the drop, as a rule, never exceeds 4 in. 58. Do you test with a loaded cage or an empty cage?— Sometimes it is loaded, and sometimes it is empty. 59. Which is the more effective test? —Well, the loaded test makes the grip all the tighter. 60. How often are the safety-hooks tested? —Once every three months on all our shafts where men are working. 61. And you have not found them to fail on any occasion?— Some eight years ago our hooks did fail; but we have King's hooks now, and they never fail. The Omeroid hook got worn at the top hole, and it was there that the defect lay. 62. So that in that case you were depending upon the safety-catches to hold your cage up?— I thought they would have caught. There was one in No. 2 shaft which did not catch. I drew the Inspector's attention to the matter, and since then we have always tested them every three months. 63. In the case of an overwind, is any provision made for the safety of the men in the cage at the bottom of the shaft ?—No, we cannot make any provision for that. 64. When the cage is lying on the cups at the bottom of the shaft?— Yes, I do not see how you could get over that. 65. What steps are taken to ascertain the condition of the winding-ropes?— Every day the braceman takes a piece of waste in his hand and lets the rope run slowly through his hand in order to detect any broken wires. He reports to the engineer in charge. 66. The Chairman.] Is the rope tested running both up and down?—As a rule, when the cage is going up. 67. Mr. Molincaux.] Have you found the water in the mine exercises a deteriorating effect on the ropes?—l have noticed sometimes that the mineral water eats the knocker-line away, but we have thicker wire now, and we find it is not eaten away so quickly. We have never had any accidents. We change our ropes every two years. 68. How often do you reshoe? —Every three months where men are being hauled. 69. What length do you take off when you reshoe? —2 ft. or 3 ft. 70. The Chairman.] What is the test for the rope?—lhe factor of safety is something like 8, and is tested with weights twice the working-load. 71. Mr. Molineauz.] Is there a chamberman stationed at every working-level?—At No. 2 shaft there are ten levels, and we have two chambermen who go up to the different levels. 72. What are the duties of the chambermen at the time of changing shift? —One man goes to the bottom level and the other to the level above. As he finishes one level he goes up above to the next. 73. But is it done in practice? —There are odd times when the men in the cage have to ring themselves down. 74. Do you consider it a safe practice for men other than the chamberman to give the signal? —Yes, I think it is quite safe, because all the men are required to know the signals. The Mining Act requires that. 75. The Chairman.] Have you ever known of accidents through wrong signals being given?— Not in cashes of that kind. 76. What is the capacity, by weight, of the trucks used in your mine? —The large trucks hold about 17A cwt. 77. Have you heard any cases of men injuring themselves with those trucks? —In the earlier days there were cases of truckers hurting themselves when we were using wooden trucks and fast wheels. They strained themselves by twisting the trucks on the flat sheets. We altered the wheels to loose ones, and it is an easy matter to turn the trucks now. I have heard of men straining their backs -when lifting , the trucks on without using a lever. 78. Are the levers always available?— Yes, the'-e are generally slabs about. 79. Could you not provide handy levers ?—Well, slabs are in frequent use in the mine, and you do not have far to go to get one. 80. Mr. Molineaux.] Under what conditions would you prefer to use electricity for firing?— In wet shafts. 81. Only in wet shafts?— Yes. 82. Under other conditions you consider the ordinary fuse is the safer? —Yes. 83. Fow many shots do you consider it safe for a man to fire at one time? —About six. 84. Yon think that is the limit of safety? —Yes, about six. 85. What is the greatest lencrth of time you have known a shot to hang fire? —I have not had much experience of hangfires. One hung fire for about fifteen minutes, I remember, but I have not known any to do so for a longer time. 86. After how long do you consider it safe to go into a place where they had been firing?— About an hour would be quite long enough. 87. What is the most frequent cause of misfires with the ordinary fuse? —Sometimes a little sawdust in the cap, or the fuse gets damp. It is unsatisfactory to use the fuse in a wet place. 88. What tamping is generally used in your mine?— Clay filling 89. But in a drive or winze where there is no filling? —Some make up little pieces of paper and fill with that. 90. Do you disapprove of the use of bag or paper tamping , ?—It is not wise. 91. Mr. Cochrane.] As to the height of stopes, Mr. Gilmour, you have told us that you endeavour to maintain a standard of 8 ft. t —B ft. of quartz. ,

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92. Then, in the event of the filling sinking, how do you provide for the safety of the men? —If the filling were to sink a foot that would make the stope a foot higher. 93. Would the men be able to sound it then] —Yes. 94. In case they were not able to sound it, how would you provide for their safety?— The stopes should be filled in. 95. You have heard the opinion expressed that it would be desirable to have the shift boss to sound the backs : what is your opinion on that ? —Under present conditions our shift bosses look after the safety of the men in that respect. The men working in the stopes are the best judges as to what the ground is like. 96. Always?— The miner knows best where he has fired and what is likely to be loose. The shift boss uses his judgment also when he sees the place on his round. 97. Do you think his judgment is sufficient if he only looks at it? —The shift boss, on looking round, frequently tells a man to test a place with his bars before he is satisfied, and I consider you could not get a better judgment than his on the matter. 98. The Chairman.] Do they do that regularly, Mr. Gilmour? Do they have tests made in their presence when they go round? —Yes, if they have cause to think that the place is bad. 99. Mr. Cochrane.] Do you approve of the shift bosses sounding the places?—No; it is sufficient if it is done under their instructions. 100. Not even in cases of special danger ? —The men take it upon themselves and do the sounding. 101. You approve of that? —Yes. 102. We have heard about the chamberman being absent at times, and the men doing the ringing up : are not the signals posted at each level? —Yes, every chamber has a list of signals. 103. Then, as to the ladders, what is your opinion as to their condition when tools are thrown down and the rungs bent ?—lf they get out of order the contractor using that particular block has to maintain them. There are passes also for putting the steel down. 104. Is that not contracting yourself out of your liability under the Act?—No, I insist upon them doing it. 105. Coming to the matter of electric firing, you mention cases of unexploded gelignite: did they cause accidents? —I have never known of them. We have not had any fatal or serious accidents through that cause. 106. Would not electric firing tend to prevent that? —Electric firing sometimes also leaves them unexploded. 107. Would firing by fuse not equally leave them? —There have been cases where some shots have cut off another hole, and the explosives have been left unexploded. 108. Which do you consider the safer for a round of twelve holes—if you had to fire twelve holes together?—l say six is enough to fire with a fuse. 109. In that case electric firing would be safer? —It would be safer, but there might be some misses. Neither system is absolutely safe for twelve holes. 110. As to the grading of the roads: do you have subsidences to contend with? —Yes, in a few places we have to raise the rails and roads. 111. Under your contract system does the manager or the contractor have to keep the ladderways in order? —The contractor has to keep in repair that part of the block in which he is working, which includes the ladders. Sometimes the contractor is paid extra for that, or the company's workmen are put on. 112. The Chairman.] In regard to timber, you might give us an idea of the conditions under which it is provided: where is it delivered?— Well, different blocks have different conditions. For a stoping block underground our specifications say that the timber shall be cut and dressed at the sollar of the shaft. The contractor comes in the morning, perhaps, and says, " I want you to send down such-and-such timber to-day." The orders are written out, and copies are given to the braceman and chamberman, and they know what orders are coming down for that day. The timber is put into a cage, and sent down and thrown off in the chamber. The contractor comes with his trolly and takes it away. 113. You simply deliver it to the chamber, and they load it themselves and take it to their stopes. You have to keep the general roadway in repair, and they look after the way into the 114. Mr. Cochrane.] Now, as to the ventilation, you say there are 75,000 cubic feet of air circulated? —Yes. 115. Did you get this 75,000 in one registering of the anemometer? —1 took it at the inlets. 116. Answer my question : in one registering of the anemometer? —No. 117. Necessarily it must be in several different main currents? —Yes. lis' Can you tell us how many you measured? —Seven downcasts and five upcasts. The measurements are as follows: No. 6 shaft, 26,161 cubic feet; Rickards filling pass, 642 cubic feet; No 1 filling pass, 1,385 cubic feet; Wheel filling pass, 1,554 cubic feet; Bulson's filling pass, 10 200 cubic feet; No. 1 shaft, 5,358 cubic feet; No. 4 shaft, 30,536 cubic feet. Those are the 119 Can you give us the number of men that have to be supplied from each of these separate currents? The gross total is three hundred men and twelve horses. I have not the figures for each current, but they could be supplied. ; 120 Then dealing with the question generally, does portion of that air go direct from the downcast to the upcast in places?—No, we have no short-circuiting; we have doors to prevent * a 121 Do you find an efficient current at all places?—ln all the stopes where the men are whenever questioned, I have taken the anemometer readings. There was over 100 cubic feet per man.

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122. In all cases'? —In all cases in the stopes. 123. What was your reading for Elsegood's slope 'I —l did not take that one. 124. What is your opinion of the conditions in Elsegood's stope?—The amount of air going up the ladderway was never questioned, and, though I have not put the anemometer upon it, 1 should say there is more than the Act requires going through it. 125. How many men are in it? —Four men, as a rule, but sometimes sis. 126. Are the conditions exceptional?— There is a good deal of iron-pyrites in that stope, and there is some heating going on. Iron-pyrites gets oxidized and sets up heat. 127. You lead me to believe that you are doing your best with it? —I am having another winze put through in the. east end of the block to give a double current. 128. You say you have no fans for mechanical ventilation? —No. 129. Do you not think the time has arrived to put up fans?— The quantity of air that is • passing through the mine is sufficient. Ido not see any necessity to put up fans to draw out the air. The quantity of air passing through is 232 ft. per man and 600 ft. per horse. The Act says 100 ft. per man, so that I consider that while we have two and one-third times the statutory requirement the fan is not required. 130. Will you tell us your opinion of the distribution of the air through the stopes? —Every stope has a winze down, and some have three or four. Each stope has two ladderways, which are 3by 3 in ordinary stopes, and in shrinkage stopes they are larger. The distribution is always arranged for whenever work is laid out. Provision is made for a current of air to go round to the working-face. 131. Do you think it could be improved on? —That system, has proved satisfactory, and there is plenty of air travelling through these places. 132. But that is not an answer to my question : do you think it could be made perfect/— Possibly; you could supply twice the amount of air if you put on eight times the power. 133. Have any suggestion to make as to that? —The general ventilation in the mine is satisfactory, and I have no suggestion to make. 134. Have you exceptional difficulty in ventilating a mine like this? —We have had no difficulty. There is natural ventilation. Our upcasts are all on the hill, 90 ft. and 100 ft. above the downcasts. The average temperature of the air coming out is close on 80°, and the average temperature on the surface is 569. The water going up the columns is about 80°. If you take a barometer reading at the bottom of the shafts also you will get the difference in the temperatures, and if you work it out you will find that the ventilation is equivalent to a good many horsepowers. 1.35. Then, evfen the heating in the pyrites is an assistance to ventilation? —Yes. 136. But, still, it would have a bad effect upon the men?— Yes, if the temperature were kept too high. 137. Then you made reference to the surface temperature : when the temperature is higher in the summer-time how does that affect the ventilation ?—The ventilation of the mine now is a little better than what it is in, say, February, when the temperature is over 60°. • 138. And how is the ventilation when the surface temperature is perhaps 85°?— The air on its way down is cool on Nos. 4 and 6, and does not go into the mine at 85°. The ventilation in the summer-time is certainly at its worst, but even then there is sufficient quantity passing through the mine. 139. Have you any special working difficulties in ventilating this mine through the number of parallel lodes? —Our downcast and upcast shafts are spread over such a large area that the different lodes have their different inlets and outlets. MO. What is your opinion of the necessity of fixing a temperature for six-hour places?— My experience has shown me that there is no need for it, because if you have a difference of a few degrees between the readings of the bulbs, and the temperature is not too high, the place is good enough to work in. 141. But take a case with the two bulbs the same (saturated), would you be in favour of a standard temperature being fixed for that place? —Well, then, with the air saturated and temperature high, it is not fit to work in at all. 142. Can you assist this Commission by suggesting a feasible workable scheme as regards the fixing of a temperature? —I would say that the temperature should not be fixed. 143. The Chairman.] At what heat, then, is the saturated temperature unfit to work in?— We had a condition where both bulbs were at 86°, and when I saw that state of things T brought the work to an end a little quicker and put a stop to the work. 144. Is that what you would call an unsuitable temperature to work in?— When it is in that condition the ventilation should be improved to reduce the temperature of the wet bulb. 145. Up to 86° is it workable? —When I saw it in that condition I thought it was not good enough to let the men work there any length of time. 146. Supposing it had been 85°? —I have never seen one 85°. Theoretically you should not have that condition of air. You should put in fresh air so as to reduce the difference between the readings of the two bulbs. . 147 Mr. Cochrane.] In the event of a difference of opinion as to whether it should be a sixhour place, how do you settle it at the present time?— The Inspector of Mines settles as to whether it should be a six-hour place. , 148 Do you think that if a workable standard were fixed which would act automatically it would save a lot of argument and dispute?—l think they should not fix a standard temperature. 149. Why?— Because if you had, say, 90° dry bulb and 86° wet bulb the men working under those conditions would feel no great inconvenience. 150 Would you, then, be in favour of fixing a standard tor saturated temperatures only I — If the temperatures are both the same I say that that place should not be worked in ; the conditions should be altered. •fie tt* ' •

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151. You say you have three shift bosses? —More than three. On day shift there are four, and t.hree managers. 152. What do you mean by three managers?— Myself, the assistant manager, and the second assistant. 153. The other two are sub-managers'! —Yes. 154. And you are the responsible mine-manager with full charge? —Yes. 155. The question has arisen before the Commission as to the interference by superior officers with mine-managers?—ln my position, as regards the safety of the men, I have never been interfered with. 156. Generally, do you wish to express an opinion as to that matter?—No, except to say that 1 have never been interfered with while I have been manager of the mine. 157. Mr. Dow gray . j Mr. Gilmour, in regard to the ventilation of your mine, have you ever seen gas in .the mine?—^Yes. 158. What method of ventilation do you adopt?—We have a Roots blower. 159. Can you show us the-ventilation plan of your mine?—[Plan produced and examined by Commissioners]. 160. Have your workmen been compelled to leave the working-place on account of gas?— Yes, in the Reptile crosscut, even when the fan was running. 161. Do you consider the men are able to do a fair amount of work in the present conditions of the mine? —Yes. 162. The Chairman.] In all places'!— Yes, in all places where the men are working. 163. Mr. Dowgray.] Uo you consider that in a mine which shows 79° of heat in places the conditions are good enough for a man to do a fair day's work?— Yes. 164. In reply to one of the Commissioners you said you tested the amount of air travelling through the workings?— Yes, at different times, when we had any doubts on the matter. 165. Could you give us the reading for Bullock's stope? Did the anemometer register at all? —Yes, the air was rushing through it at a frightful rate. 166. Have you ever had the air analysed to see whether it was pure or not in Bullock's or Elsegood's stopes?—No. 167. When you are testing do you take your readings far quantity in the intake or the return ! —In Horan's stope in the outlet. 168. You mentioned that in some, places you had the air travelling through four levels. Could that not be regulated? Should it not be brought up a separate shaft? —In some cases it goes right up No. 5 without going anywhere else. 169. But could the levels be ventilated by regulators?— Whenever occasion arises we always look into the matter,, 170. Is it not possible to ventilate each level separately ?—That is done as much as possible. according to the places the men are working in. 171. It is not done according to the plan you showed us?— No. 1 shaft delivers the air only down to No. 7 level. 172. Do you allow the foul air and fumes to travel from the lower levels right through the others up to the upper level? —The return from Bullock's stope takes the smoke from right round there. There are- four places. 173. When do you consider , a mine adequately ventilated in regard to the condition of the air? —If there is 100 ft. that is adequate according to the Act. 174. And if this 100 ft. of air is.not circulated; in.the stopes in the working-places?— That is what we try to do. - . ~..". ~....., .. - .... 175. It does not follow, though, that because you show 75,000 cubic feet of air travelling in the mine, and that averages 230 ft. per man, that that amount of air is circulating in the places? — You can try any of the stopes you wish-^-everything is in working order —and you will find there is more air than the requirement. ~ , 176. The Chairman.'] The Act says that the Inspector may prescribe the amount of air to be considered adequate under certain conditions?— Well, whenever the Inspector has asked for more air we have always attended to it. 177. Has the Inspector made any complaints in regard to your ventilation? —He has spoken about Horan's stope, but there was enough air for-twenty-six men there. 178. Was he satisfied?— Yes, as to the quantity. ;. 179. Does the Inspector furnish you with a copy of his readings?— No. If there is anything he considers requires attention he. sends me a, let^e.r^. ..■.. 180. Would it be any advantage if he furnished you with a copy of his readings?— The matter could be all the better attended to. The more information I get the better. 181. Of course, we are open to receive .any .suggestions on any points either one way or the other : it is for anybody to make a suggestion, and the Commission will consider it?— The workmen's inspector makes an inspection.once a month and furnishes a report. I think it is a great advantage to me, because he points out anything which he considers wrong, and shows me that the mine is being inspected in addition to the work carried out by our own men. 182. Would it be any advantage to you to have the Inspector's report similarly?— Yes. 183. Mr. Dowgray.~\ When the check inspector calls your attention to matters do you remedy them?—l read his report carefully,, and do. my best to remedy any matters complained of, and which I consider require attention. 184. In connection with the ventilation, the 100 cubic feet is needed for each man for consumption ?—No, a man only wants about 1 cubic foot of air to breathe. 185. But in places where there is a lot of gelignite? —They make up the 100 ft. with decaying timber, gelignite-fumes, probable gases given off from the rocks, candle-burning : that makes up 25 cubic feet, and they multiply it by four. It is considered that that 100 ft. represents four times what is absolutely necessary.

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186. How would you account for the difference in the prescribed quantities for a coal and a gold mine I —l suppose it is because of the inflammable gas met with in coal-mines. 187. What amount of air would it require to dilute 1 lb. of gelignite to make the air fit for human use?—As I have already said, allowing for the gelignite and gases included, it only wants 25 ft. to free it. 188. You think 100 cubic feet is quite sufficient I—Yes, it is four times as much as is actually necessary. 189. Is that a standard? —It is laid down in standard works. 190. Though, according to your calculation, there is 230 ft. of air available for every man, it does not follow that every man in every place has a sufficiency of air ?—I do not say that every man has 230 ft. Some have more, and some may have less; in some places they get a little too much. 191. So that the 230 ft. cannot be taken as the quantity which each man gets?—No, that is only got by dividing the total current by the number of men. 192. Would you be surprised to hear that in one place measuring 7 by 4£ we could not get the anemometer to move at all? —You would very often not get the anemometer to register. Where was that ? 193. In No. 4? —I am surprised. 1 was not with you, and do not remember the place. 194. In reply to a question by Mr. Molineaux you said that the ropes were tested and the conditions reported: have you that report with you?—No, it is in the engine-driver's room; I did not bring it. 195. Were you working in the Waihi Mine prior to the introduction of the contract system ( -Yes. 196. Is it a fact that Mr. Coutts, late Inspector of Mines, said that during the six months after the introduction of that system more accidents occurred than during the previous six years / —That may be so, but the mine is very progressive. I say that the accidents should be taken per man, and not over any number of years. That is no way to take out an average for accidents. 197. But under the contract system it usually follows that the number of accidents increase 2— There have been more men employed. 198. It is a fact that such a report was made? —I have never had my attention drawn to it. 199. Mr. Parry. ] You say, Mr. Gilmour, that you distribute the air by brattice and doors i Y es 200. How many brattice-cloths and doors have you in the mine at the present time?— There are ten main ones, besides small pieces of brattice-cloth. 201. How many doors are there? —That includes doors made of wood and doors made of brattice. 202. How long is it since the major portion of these were put in?— They were put in when 1 started to study the ventilation of the mine more seriously, when Mr. Bennie was Inspector of Mines here —about six years ago. 203. On the Ist November, 1909, was there a brattice in the mine at all? —Yes, these doors were put in long before that. 204. In what places were they put in on that date? —Speaking from memory, I know there was one at No. 8 level, so as to stop the air from going up into No. 5 shaft from No. 4 shaft, and also at No. 7 level there were two. I went into the question very seriously when Mr. Bennie drew my attention to the fact that our air was not being distributed. I went into the question then, and had the floors put in. 205. Has there been any suggestion about the doors made by the workmen's inspector?— Yes, but not of late. He asked that brattice be put in to send the air round several of the stopes. 206. Of late how many reports have you had as to brattice and doors? —One or two. 207. And do you contend, Mr. Gilmour, that there is a sufficient current of air in all those stopes?—l contend that there is over 100 ft. in the main roads. You may get a time when it does not go right round the face, but through the outlets you will get sufficient current. 208. Do you think there was 100 ft. in Pearson's and Waddell's places ?—I am quite sure there was in Pearson's —in fact, about four times that quantity. 209. In the event of a stope being that shape [sketch handed to witnessj, with three rises and two travelling-ways, how would you distribute the air into the ends?— Well, we do not go more than half that distance; we have no condition of affairs similar to that. 210. What is the distance between the ends in Bullock's stope?—Now their winze is within 40 ft. of the end. 211. And they have 40 ft. to break where there is no circulation at all, and under your system it is impossible to give ventilation? —Is there not a ladderway in that stope? [Sketch referred to. J 212. Will you explain to the Commission how you would ventilate that?— Well, the air goes up that ladderway and causes a draught, which sucks the air out of the end, and if there was smoke there they could empty the quartz pass. 213. Do you think that plan of ventilation is adequate for the stopes?—The winze in the stopes would be adequate to ventilate it. 214. You said that the majority of the accidents have been caused by sharp pieces of stone : are there not a great many cases of jammed hands? —There have been several jammed hands. 215. What is the cause of that? —Some of the men had their hands jammed by the trucks. They did not use the bars, and their hands have been jammed against the side of the level. 216. Do you think the accidents in the Waihi Mine are excessive?—No, I do not, considering the number of men employed. The serious accidents are not excessive, although there are a lot of minor accidents. The percentage of fatal accidents is very low compared with mines in other parts of the world.

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217. What mine in the world has a higher average? —They have higher averages in South Africa. 218. Have you compared the number of accidents here with those in the Thames mines? —No, 1 do not know how many men are working there. 219. Do you think Waihi would compare favourably? —It would not be a fair comparison. 220. What is the difference between mining here and at the Thames? —They have no big stopes and no wide reefs. There are more accidents from falls of ground at the Thames, according to my experience. A man is never safe in those mines even after sounding the backs. The Thames miners, when they come here, will seldom go into a place without sounding all the time. There has been no sliding here, the result of volcanic action, as there has been at the Thames. I have not compared the figures, but when the Thames field was in full swing years ago there were far more accidents than we have now. 221. You have a different system of mining : the stopes here are bigger and the reefs wider, consequently there is more danger?—No, I did not say so. 222. You said that the stopes were bigger, and that was the cause of the accidents?—l did not say that was the of the accidents; if so, I misunderstood your question. 223. With regard to the proposal that the company should take the responsibility for the safety of the stopes, and the shift bosses to do the sounding, what is your opinion?—At present I go through the stopes myself, as well as the shift bosses, and I take the responsibility through the shift bosses. 224. Then, if you say that you are taking the responsibility now, and it is not necessary for any other provision to be made, who had the responsibility at the time Mr. Samson was killed? — No blame was attachable to any one. That was the jury's verdict. 225. The Chai/man.] Do you consider it should be made compulsory?—l consider that the present method covers the ground. 226. The question is whether it should be made more specific, in view of the fact that in the absence of any statutory provision the responsibility is at present left to the contractor or to the men working in the stope?—lt says in the Act that every man must satisfy himself as to the safety of his place. 227. Mr. Parry.] Will you tell the Commission what responsibility rests on your shoulders?— Well, the Mining Act says that the responsibility is mine. 228. What would be the result if the engine-driver was to faint when the men were being raised or lowered? —It all depends where the cage was when he fainted. 229. Suppose he fainted when the cage was 100 ft. from the surface? —By that time he would have cut off the steam, and the cage would go on up to the detaching-hook. It all depends upon the speed at which it went up. I consider that the men would be safe. 230. The Chairman.~\ If anything were to happen at any time, what would be the result as far as the cage is concerned? —The down-going cage would go down at the velocity at which it was running, and the up-cage would be hung up at the top of the poppet-legs. 231. It would depend upon which cage the men were travelling in? —If they were going down they would get a "bump at the bottom, which would depend upon the velocity they were travelling at; but if they were in the up-cage there would be a reasonable chance of safety. 232. Mr. Parry.'] But your statement that the men would be safe is only supposition?— Well, I have never known of an accident nor read of one. If a man did not feel fit while at the engine he would say so. 233. Is it not a fact that a man does not know when he feels a little " off colour "? —I do not think a man like that would remain at his engine. 234. With regard to the trucks, do you not think it is beyond the strength of one man to replace a truck on the line if it becomes derailed?—As a rule, a man generally goes back for his mate. 235. In the event of a man being in a level by himself? —In that case he can replace it on the rails by using the lever. If it is right off the rails he must get assistance. If only the front wheels are off he can replace it by himself. 236. With regard to the delivery of the timber, you say that there are different conditions for different places. Is it not a fact that in all cases the timber is only delivered to the plats? —Yes. 237. Is it not also a fact that the men have to take it out of the cages themselves?—At No. 6 shaft there are men told off to do it. The shift boss instructs them. 238. With regard to the temperature in Koran's stope : in answer to a question by Mr. Cochrane you said that when your attention was first drawn to the heat there it was 86° moist. Who drew your attention to that heat? —I did not say that. I said that at the finish I said it was 86° dry and 86° wet. I stopped the work sooner than was intended, because I considered it was not a fit place. Before that it had not reached that temperature. The Inspector of Mines visited the place, and I got a reduction of a few degrees in the temperature. The men went on working, and as they got in further the heat increased until it registered 86° dry and 86° wet. Then I took them out and sealed up the stope. 239. Is it not a fact that the job was completed at the time it was stopped?—No, it was not completed when I gave orders not to work there any longer. 240. And you consider that an excessive temperature?— Yes, when both bulbs read alike. I would stop it every time. 241. If in the course of driving one of your levels you got that heat, and you required to drive it to open up, what would you do?—I would put in a fan or something to alter the temperature, so that it would be fit for men to work in. 242. Do you think a dry temperature is not injurious?—No, not within certain limits.

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243 Not even 100°?— No. Take, for instance, a stokehole. I believe they go up to 150°. A dry heat does not affect your work so much. 244. Would you rather work in a place with 100°, or 70° temperature with a wet bulb. 30° lower in each case?—l would take the 70° place. 245. As a matter of fact, then, you would sooner work in a cool place?— You have to work according to the conditions. You cannot make your own choice. 246. Why do you think it is wrong to fix a standard temperature? You say it is unworkable? —Because, supposing it was 90° dry. and the wet bulb showed a good deal lower, it would not affect a man's vitality to work in it. 247. If an honest, hard-working man were working in a temperature like that, and he told you that it had a bad effect upon him, what would you do?—I would test the temperature with the wet bulb, and find out what was affecting him. 248. Leave the moisture out of the question?— You cannot. 249. Then we will say it was 90° dry and 80° wet? —That would be a good place. 250. In the event of that being an honest man, and telling you that the air was affecting him? —It would not be the air which was affecting him in those conditions. 251. What would it be?—l do not know. 252. Would it be the heat? —No. 253. Who do you think is the best man to judge of the effects of a hot place, the theoretical or the practical man who works there? —Each man is the best judge of the effect it has upon himself. 254. Do you say that the working-man is the best judge as to the effect of a hot place?—l would not say the workiner-man ;it is a matter of common-sense. You cannot say that a working-man would know better than a theoretical man. 255. The Chairman.] A man may be ill. but it may not be the heat which is affecting him ?- That is so. 256. At what temperature saturated, less than 86°, would you stop a man from working?— It would have to be saturated fully. 1 would introduce something which would lower the wet-bulb temperature. 257. Would you stot> a man at any temperature less than 86° if you could not reduce it? — No, I would not stop below 86°. I have not had any experience of the two bulbs being the same below 86°. 258. Mr. Parry.] If they were reading 85° saturated would you stop?—l would want to know what the other conditions were. 259. Have you been in such a place 3'ourself I —Yes, I have been sampling. 260. Have you done eight hours' work there? —No. 261. So that you are not in a position to give an answer as to the effect on your constitution? —I do not know. I have never worked for eight hours in such a place. 262. You said workers were the best judges of their places: it is only reasonable, then, to extend to them the same privilege as to a judge?—A man is the best judge if he is a competent miner. 263. As regards the appointment of shot-firers, you said thejdea was impracticable, but you did not tell the Commission why?—lf you had one shot-firer for half a dozen parties, and if one of them wanted him down a long winze, perhaps another party would reauire his services in a stope. He would be required in several places at once, and the men would become dissatisfied very quickly with such an arrangement. It would end in confusion, particularly in a mine like ours, where there are so many men employed. 264. Are you aware that that system was in operation at the Junction at one time?—l do not know. 265. Do you think that.electricity would be safer for firing in ordinary work—say. in stopes? —It is safer in shafts—we had experience with it in No. 2—but Tdo not know about its use in stopes. 266. What accident did you refer to?— Gray and Boxhall. 267. Do you think that Faulder, Strong, and Cochrane would have been blown up if electricity had been used?—l do not know what happened to Faulder. He himself did not know what happened. 268. In what way did Nicholls «et killed?—Mv recollection of that case was that lie did m>l go up after the hole was fired, but his mate did. They thought his pick struck into the gelignite in a hole which had not gone off, or else into gelignite which had been left in a hole. No one could' tell the details, because the evidence was destroyed. 269. What is the chief reason for stopes being taken high?—T have known n workman sometimes to drill a hole above 8 ft. of stone. 270. The Chairman.'] Do you think the contract system conduces to higher atopes?— ■ No, f do not think so. 271. Mr. Parry.] Do you think there is any necessity for mechanical ventilation in the Waihi Mine?—ln these long crosscuts you must necessarily have it. 272. I mean for taking away the smoke from the stopes?—The present quantity of ventilation in the stopes is ample. 273. And you consider the temperature of the mine is trood ?—Yes. except at different places. where it was 86° wet and 86° dry. That was considered bad. 274. The Chairman.] When the Inspector of Mines goes round and finds CO or CO,, rloes he give you notice? —I heard the Inspector say the other day that he had not seen CO, ; " nur ro i- ne. 275. Mr. Parry.] Have there been any complaints about the fuse burning too ouicklv? —Yes. a few years ago. We found that the fuse was bursting, but we had no misfires with it. We timed samples of it, and found it burned at the rate of 2 ft. to the minute, if mv memory serves me right.

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27(i. Have you not ordered stages to be removed from ladderways?—Yes, 1 ordered the 9-by-2 stage to be taken away. The Inspector asked that platforms be put in the ladderways, but the men put in two wooden boards together. I ordered these to be taken out and two iron rails to be substituted, so as not to block the airway. It complied with the Act, which requires platforms every 30 ft. 277. Is No. 1 shaft a downcast? —Yes. 278. With regard to the air which goes from No. 1 shaft, is it not a fact that it does not circulate in the stopes, but goes to No. 2?— You can feel a nice cool current near No. 1 shaft. It is the downcast air which is going through the stopes immediately alongside Truscott's. 279. Do you not think that the stables should be as near as possible to the upcast shaft? — Yes, or on a return current. 280. Where does the drainage from the stables go to? —We have a man to clean up the stables, and the refuse is sent up the shaft. The drainage is led into a hole, and is taken up in a barrel. 281. Mr. Cochrane.] Do you say there are more misfires with a battery than with a fuse?— Yes, I know that from practical experience. 282. If you were told that statistics proved that there are many more misfires with a fuse than with a battery what would you say?— Our experience in the Waihi Mine shows the opposite. 283. If general statistics differ from your experience, does it not point to something being wrong with your batteries? —Theoretically I know there is something wrong, but I do not know what it is. We have tried to get the agents to send the best material and the strongest exploders. The Inspector brought down the Government Inspector of Explosives, but he could not see anything wrong. 284. Mr. Dowgray.] In connection with the temperature, you said it was quite healthy to work in 100° dry. Would the dust then not come in as an element of danger? —-There would be dust if the water were not used in. the drills. If there were no difference as regards the dust there would be no ill effects. 285. But the temperature does not go up to 90°? —We have had it 100° in the mine. 286. You say that a man could work with 100° dry in temperature in comfort: what I want to know is if dust does not play an important part generally in the matter of health? —If the air were as dry as that everything, of course, would be as dry as a bone. 287. So that even the dry temperature is an important element and injurious to the miners? —Yes. Nutcombe Jeanes Evebed sworn and examined. (No. 27.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Evered? — A mine-manager, holding a first-class certificate. 2. How long have you held your certificate? —Ten years. 3. What experience have you had apart from the time covered by your certificate?— Seventeen years' experience. 4. What mines have you managed?— Only the Waihi. lam assistant manager there. 5. How long have you been in Waihi? —Fifteen years; ten years as assistant manager. 6. Have you anything to tell the Commission regarding the ventilation of the mine? —I cannot say that I have anything to add to Mr. Gilmour's statement. I quite agree with what he has said. 7. Do you agree with his remarks in respect to sanitary arrangements?— Certainly; also as to accidents. 8. 'then you corroborate his evidence in all particulars as far as it was conducted by me? —Yes. 9. Mr. Molineaux.] Do you think, Mr. Evered, it is to the benefit of the miners to have bathhouses and change-houses? —Yes. 10. And also adequate sanitary appliances? —Yes. 11. With regard to winding, do you consider any provision should be made to prevent accidents with cages down the shaft in the event of an overwind?—l do not see how you could make any provision for controlling if the cage had got up its velocity. The only thing you could control would be the engines. I have nothing to suggest to avoid an accident to a descending cage in case of a runaway. 12. How is subsection (27) of section 254 complied with in regard to descending cages and the examination of appliances?— The appliances referred to in that subsection are the grippers on the cage, and these are what we test every week. 13. Do you consider that periodical medical examinations of engine-drivers would minimize the liability to accident? —I should think it would be inclined to do so. Though I have never heard of an accident, it is possible one might happen. 14. Do you consider the idea of having two men in charge or in close proximity to the engine when men are in the cage would have the effect of minimizing the risk of accident? —No, I do not think so. I think the second man would be inclined to attract the other man's attention, and the danger would be increased rather than otherwise. 15. In your experience of explosives, by which system have you found the most misfires to occur? —By electric firing. 16. Under what conditions would you use electricity in preference to a fuse? —I think only in wet places. Of course, if a place was very un-get-at-able, it might be advisable to use electricity also. 17. How many holes do you think it safe to fire with ordinary fuse?— About six. 18. Do you consider that number should be fixed by regulation?— Yes, I see no objection to it. 19. Have you received any complaint from the miners with regard to the heavy running of the trucks underground?— Yes, I have heard complaints at various times. 20. Have many miners been injured through attempting to put the trucks on the line?— Yes, I have heard of them injuring themselves while attempting to lift a truck without a lever.

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21. Is there any difficulty at any time in obtaining a suitable lever? —They may have to go 100 ft. for one, but not very far. 22. With regard to ladders in the passes leading to the stopes, have you frequently to make complaints as to their condition?— No. 23. Have they to bekept in order by the contractor? —Yes. 24. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you think that if the side of the level was kept further from the truck many accidents would be avoided? —No, I think that the trouble is that the men take hold of the trucks by the corners instead of by the handles. 25. Does the air become heated the further it goes down the mine?—lt may get slightl/ heated, but not much. 26. By the temperature of the rocks? —Yes, a little. 27. Then you do not agree that the air gets cooler at the bottom in the summer-time than it was at the top ?—lt might. The mean temperature in the summer is not very high down below. It depends on the initial temperature. 28. Supposing it registers 60° on the surface, will the temperature of the air be reduced or increased when it gets to the bottom ?— It depends upon the local conditions — upon the temperature of the rocks. 29. Has velocity anything to do with it? —It may. 30. Then it is practically impossible for the air to be cooler at the bottom than it is at the surface? —Certainly not; the variations in temperature on the surface are very large. 31. Does good ventilation mean a good temperature from surface back to surface again?— Well, if you have noxious gases it cannot be as pure when it comes back as when it went down. 32. Mr. Parry.] You corroborate Mr. Gilmour's evidence as to ventilation?— Yes. 33. The air is well conducted in the mine? —Yes. 34. Do you know that the members of the Commission were in the mine on three different occasions for half a day each time, and only one door was seen during their inspection—under Elsegood's stope?—They were unfortunate, then. 35. The Chairman.] How many are there marked in the plan of the mine? —Eleven. 36. Mr. Parry.] Do you not think, as a practical as well as a theoretical man, that the time has arrived for having a systematic plan of ventilation for the mine? —We have a plan now. 37. But can you produce a systematic plan of ventilation? —You have had it. 38. Have you a plan now for the next level? —Our next level will not be needed until two years hence. 39. You have no sufficient plan of ventilation laid down for that level? —We have enough for present requirements. 40. The Chairman.] Is it customary to prepare a plan of ventilation before opening new workings?— Well, if you are opening up new workings you do not know where the reefs are or where they will be found to exist. You have to be guided by circumstances. 41. Mr. Parry.] But, as a matter of fact, you know that you will have to drive to certain points?—No, Ido not know. We have to be guided by the ground. There may be upheavals or slides, and we cannot tell before we get there what that development will be. 42. But you know that there are certain points for which you must drive where the reef exists? —We do not know where it exists. We cannot go on a proposed line of reef. 43. 1 want to know whether it is feasible, in opening up another level, to have a systematic plan?—No, it is not usual; it is unworkable, and I do not think it is necessary. 44. I wish to know if winzes are sunk for ventilation purposes only?—lt is not usual. We generally utilize our winzes for other purposes as well; we combine their utility. We may sink them at the time because the ventilation is bad, and ultimately use them for filling. 45. Have you ever sunk a winze in the country for ventilation purposes alone?—No, I cannot recall such a place as that. 46. Your reason against the appointment of a second engine-driver was that they may talk to such an extent as to increase the risk of accident? —Yes; but I have never heard of an accident occurring through only one man being at the engine. 47. And that is the only reason that you see for not having two men at the engines at once?— Yes; we have a rule that no man shall speak to the engine-driver, but if there were two men there the risk of the rule being broken would be great. 48. Could you not have a similar rule to prevent them from talking to one another? —It would be a very difficult matter. 49. As regards the appointment of shot-firers, you corroborate Mr. Gilmour's evidence that it is impracticable?— Yes. 50. Why is it impracticable?— For one thing, there would be the difficulty of communicating with the shot-firer. If, for instance, he were 100 ft. up a rise, how are you going to let him know? 51. Could not there be certain times arranged for firing?—We have often tried that, but it has not been satisfactory. 52. Do you not think it is in the interests of the health of the men, and also to assist the ventilation, for the men to fire at regular times? —It is a very difficult matter to arrange. 53. Do you think it would be better for their health and ventilation? —No, I think it would be more satisfactory as it is, 54. The Would the fnmes be likely to carry away better? —No, I think there would be too much noxious gas passing away at the one time. It is better for a little smoke to be passing all through the eight hours. 55. Mr. Parry.] You say that you think it would make no difference if they were all asked or made to fire at a certain time? —I that the present system is preferable. 56. Why did you try to regulate it? —We tried to do so in one particular stope, but the men said it would not suit them., and they wished to fire when they had finished.

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57. In the event of the appointment of shot-fivers you say that the man, when required, might be 100 ft. up in a stope or rise. But if there were sufficient shot-firers the system would be quite practicable, would it not —if there were enough shot-firers to attend to all the firing?— You might fill the mine with shot-firers. Ido not think it would be practicable. 58. Do you think the expense would be too great? Is that your reason 2 —Of course, the expense would be an item against it. 59. As regards the ventilation, have you taken any temperatures of rocks in the Waihi Mine? —No, but I have been present when they have been taken. 60. What is the highest temperature registered by the rocks? —1 could not tell you without referring to records. 61. Would it be 92°? —I have not seen that. It varies very much. 62. Supposing the rocks in the stope registered 84°, and there is, we will say, 5,000 cubic feet of air, would it necessarily follow that the air would have the same temperature as the rock ?—lf it were a large stcpe you would find that the air would vary a good deal. It would be cool at the centre, and hotter at the sides where it came into contact with the rock. Then, with that large amount the velocity would be great, and that would make it cooler in the centre, too. 63. The greater the current of air the cooler the place would be?— Yes. You see, if it were travelling fast it would not reach the heat of the rock, but if it remained stationai-y it would. 64. It would dep # end upon the circulation of the air and the speed ? —Yes. 65. What would be the best means to reduce the temperature in such a place?— You could put ice in there. 66. If the circulation of the air was increased would that not bring the temperature down?— It might affect it in some parts of the stope. 67. Would an exhaust fan have the effect of reducing the temperature if it were shut up so as to operate upon that particular hot place ? —lt would probably reduce it a little. 68. What do you think is the cause of the present high stopes?—Where it has been baulked ground they have had to take it down, and that tends to increase the height. 69. Do you think a standard height should be fixed for stopes?—l do not think you can fix a standard. If a man is not allowed to take down a piece of ground which threatens to fall on him, what is he to do ? He has to take it down for his own safety. You cannot say that his stope everywhere shall not exceed a certain height. 70. But in the case of a stope that will run up by the firing of a hole?— Well, you fill it in if it gets very high. 71. But you cannot fill a stope in until the face gets far away?— You can fill in a stope at any time. 72. Yes, if you want to stop the work? —Yes. 73. But it might not be desirable to stop the stope, as that would be detrimental to the company's interests? —Certainly, it would; but if the work were unsafe you would have to do it. 74. Mr. Dowgray.] But in the event of a stope getting unsafe do you not use timber? —Yes, but you cannot start timbering in the middle of a stope that would be dangerous. 75. Do I understand you to say that it is not practicable to commence timbering when a stope has been partly filled in—you do not do that sort of thing? —We have tried it, and found it unsatisfactory. 76. I would like to ask you if Brooks's stope was not partly filled in first? —There may have been one stope. 77. Was Owen's? —Yes, and we had to abandon it. 78. And Davies's stope in No. 7 level? —I think Davies's was started from the level. 79. Are you sure?—No, I am not quite sure, but it was started at the level or near it. 80. How do you extract your arches up above —on timber? —We give the mullock probably a couple of years to consolidate. It sinks for a year, at any rate; the sole plates sink just as much as the mullock. 81. Mr. Parry.] Is it not a fact that these stopes were up some distance when the timber was put in ? —ln only two or three cases. 82. Mr. Eeed.] Do you not think it advisable that the use of penthouses in shafts should be made compulsory by law? —Yes. 83. Are you aware of any provision in the present statute in connection with them?—l do not think there is any reference to them. We make it a practice. 84. And you would recommend that they should be provided for in the regulations ? —Yes, I would; that is, in working-shafts, of course. 85. In regard to sanitary matters, do you not think that the pans should be provided with lids?— Yes. 86. Would you recommend the use of an automatic earth-feeder to regulate the supply of earth? —It might be feasible, but I have had no experience on the subject. 87. Would the earth act as a deodorizer? —Yes. 88. Would you recommend that small spaces round the pans be concreted? —I do not see quite where the moisture is to come from. The pan is supposed to receive it all. 89. Do you not think it is necessary to prevent spilling? —No, it should not be. 90. As regards a six-hour place, could you inform the Commission what would be the hours actually worked? —Well, under the conditions, 1 should say not more than five hours. The men always have crib; then it takes a good deal of time going to and from their work. 91. In an eight-hour place what would be the average worked? —About seven hours. 92. Does that seven hours include crib-time? —Yes. 93. As regards spliced winding-ropes, some countries have a regulation prohibiting the use of them? —It may be necessary. 94. How often do you anneal your cage-chains? —Every six months. 95. Is that compulsory by law? —No, we have our own rule for it.

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96. Have you studied the question of the most modern type of change-houses? —I have read various descriptions of them. 97. Have you read the specifications of those in use in Westphalia?—l have heard of them. 98. When a man removes his clothes he hangs them on a line, pulls them up to the roof by rope and pulley, and padlocks the rope to the back of a seat?— Yes, I have heard of it. 99. Would that not give greater space?—ln our change-houses here the clothing is hung on pegs. If we had to adopt that system the change-house would have to be made higher. 100. If you had to redesign your change-houses what scheme would you follow? —It might be an improvement to adopt the method you refer to, but 1 have not seen it working myself. 101. As regards the use of brattice in your mine, what is your experience?—lt is unsatisfactory. The men trucking on the levels leave it open. 102. Is that done intentionally?— You cannot say whether it is intentional or not. 103. During your experience here has there been a rider added to a Coroner's jury's verdict which was averse to the company?— No. 104. Has the company ever been cast in damages in regard to injuries as the result of litigation?—No, not as far as I can remember. 105. As regards the ventilation, would increasing the air to a considerable extent reduce the temperature? —Of course, if the temperature of the air were low it would. 106. But would not a large volume of air tend to lower the temperature?— Yes, it naturally would. 107. You have 70,000 cubic feet of air? —Yes, over that—76,ooo. 108. Are you aware that in New South Wales in some mines they have 300,000 ft .of air per minute ?—Yes. 109. Apart from the expense, do you not think it would be advisable to put in a fan to increase the quantity of air and reduce- the temperature?— But the ventilation of the mine is good. 110. But why not have it better?— Well, that is an economic question. 111. But if a colliery can afford to install a plant capable of providing 300,000 cubic feet is it not reasonable to ask the Waihi Company to install one? —Yes, possibly. 112. In connection with the damage done to ladder-passes, has the company no remedy for preventing the throwing of tools down them? —It is against orders to do it in any case. 113. Have you ever taken action against the contractors for that? —No, but we have cautioned them about it. The men are supposed to lower the picks and tools with ropes. 114. In connection with sprays, would you recommend their use to be made compulsory with drills? —Well, it is compulsory now according to the Act. 115. Under the present statute it is compulsory for the company to provide them, but it is not compulsory for the men to use them?—lt is a rather difficult question. You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. 116. Are the men liable to a penalty for not using the spray?—l do not think so. 117. Would you recommend that their use by the men should be made compulsory?— Yes. John Hollis sworn and examined. (No. 28.) 1. The Chairman .] What are you?—l am one of the shift bosses in the Waihi Mine. 2. How long have you been mining? —Twenty-five or twenty-six years. 3. Where? —At Waihi and Waitekauri. 4. Have you heard the evidence given by Mr. Gilmour and Mr. Evered?—Yes. 5. So far as it relates to the working of the Waihi Mine can you corroborate it? —Yes. 6. Mr. Beed.] Do you examine the stopes?—l do. 7. In what condition do you find them? —In my section of the mine they are good. 8. What height do you generally keep them?—l try to keep them 8 ft.—that is, 10 ft. or 11 ft. from the sollars. 9. Are you always able to keep them at that? —No, not always, because the loose quartz is brought down sometimes and makes the roof of stope higher. 10. What section are you in?— No. 2, Edward and Royal lodes, and No. 4. 11. How long have you been there? —I have been looking after it for about eight years. 12. Have you had any fatal accidents there? —No. 13. How many men on an average work in your section? —About eighty to a hundred. 14. Have you had many complaints as to the excessive height of the backs? —Sometimes the Inspector of Mines has advised me that the stopes "were too high. 15. And what steps did you take? —We cautioned the men, and gave instructions that no hole was to be bored above 8 ft. 16. Do the men make complaints to you as to the height? —No, it is fairly good. 17. Do they complain to you about the ventilation? —Only in one stope, Horan's. They complained as to the heat there. 18. What was the temperature when it was last recorded?—l forget now. 19. Is that a six-hour place? —No, eight hours. 20. Have you any six-hour places in your section? —No. 21. How do you determine a six-hour place in the stopes? —There are no six-hour places in the stopes. 22. Have you had any trouble in keeping the brattice-cloth up in your mine? —Yes. I do not know whether it is the result of carelessness or accident, but trucking has pulled them down. 23. Do the men use the sprays in connection with the drills?— Only with the rock-drills. 24. Do they ever neglect to use the sprays?— They are very seldom used in the rises. 25. And in the levels and crosscuts? —They always use the jet there. 26. Do they complain of the water splashing over them? —No.

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27. What is your opinion as to the appointment of electric shot-firers?■—l do not believe in it at all. If a man is capable of boring a hole he is capable of firing it. The men should not be treated like blacks in Africa. 28. How do you think the men would stand having shot-firers put over them to fire their shots?— Speaking for myself, I would not have it. 29. Have you had any experience of mines in other countries? —No. 30. Have you met miners from other countries? —I have met one or two from Africa. 31. In Waihi do you meet miners from Australia?— Yes. 32. Have any of them informed you whether shot-firers are employed in Australian mines? —No. 33. Have you ever heard of the employment of shot-firers in mines where white quartz-miners are working? —Only in the Grand Junction Mine. 34. How long have they been employed in the Junction ? —I could not say. 35. Could you suggest anything for keeping those closets in the mine a little cleanei, and freer from offensive odours? —There is a man employed to go round and keep them in order. The pans are taken up twice a week and changed. 36. Have you tried the use of earth at all? —No. 37. Where do the men get their drinking-water from?—lt comes down No. 4 shaft from a spring in No. 4 level. Down to No. 2 level the men uso race-water. 38. Mr. Cochrane.] I think you said you found brattice-cloth unsatisfactory?—lt does not seem to last any time. The trucking pulls it down. 39. What would you suggest in its place?—A door is the only thing. 40. It might need double doors? —No, I do not think so. 41. Would you recommend doors in place of brattice? —Yes, where they arc required. 42. Mr. Dowgray."\ When the roof of a stope gets bad do you put timber in? —No, we take it down, 43. Then it will run up out of your reach : you can only take it down a certain distance? —It is an awkward matter to timber with filling. 44. When is it considered necessary to timber a stope?—lf there were anything rotten there they would start off with timber. 45. If thej- got up a certain distance, and then found it necessary to timber?—l have never found that happen in my section. ii>. Mr. Parry.] Have you taken many temperatures in the mine? —No, none. 47. Is it the usual thing for the shift boss to take temperatures?— No. 48. Have you seen any temperatures taken in that mine apart from those taken by the Inspector of Mines? —Yes, by Mr. Gilmour and Mr. Evered. 49. In regard to brattice-cloths being torn down, would the concussion have any effect upon them? —No, we cut them into strips. 50. Are they all cut into strips? —No, only sometimes. 51. Was the brattice in Horan's stope cut into strips, or was it in three pieces, or singly? —I forget now. There were several pieces put up in Horan's stope. 52. You say you have not had much trouble in your section with high stopes?—No; now and then we have had, but very seldom. 53. Have you any opinion to offer as regards the fixing of a standard temperature?— No. 54. You have worked in hot places as a practical man?—l have not worked in many hot places —only in the Waihi Mine for ten years. 55. You are not in a position to suggest anything in regard to hot places?— No. 56. Mr. Beed.] Do you ever sound the backs of stopes, or do you cause them to be sounded? —Yes, I have sounded them myself, and also drawn the attention of the men to them. Sometimes I have pulled them down. John Coombe sworn and examined. (No. 29.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Coombe?—Assistant manager of the Waihi Mine. 2. What certificate do you hold? —1 have a metalliferous and a coal-mine manager's certificate. 3. What experience have you had? —About forty years, in different parts of the world. 4. How long have you been at the Waihi Mine? —Nearly ten years. 5. In what capacity? —Assistant mine-manager. 6. You have heard Mr. Gilmour's evidence in detail: do you corroborate it, or have you anything to add to it ?—I do not think I can take from or add to it. 7. Have you any suggestions to offer in i'egard to any of the matters before the Commission? —No, I do not think so. 8. Mr. Molineaux.] You are accustomed to taking temperatures?— Well, no, I have not been taking temperatures for some time. Mr. Gilmour and Mr. Evered do that. 9. Do you understand the difference between the dry and wet bulb?—l do. 10. Do you consider it practicable to fix a standard temperature for all gold-mines?—l should say not. 11. Why not? —Because I do not think there is so much in the temperature altogether as long as you have the assurance that you have the quantity and quality of air necessary for the men that are employed about the place. Ido not think the temperature has much to do with it. I have worked in Western Australia, where we could not have had it less than 110° in the summertime at any time. 12. What hours did you work there? —Eight hours. 13. W T as that 110° dry? —Yes, with very little humidity in the air, as a rule. 14. If it were absolutely necessary for a, standard to be fixed, what would you consider it should be, taking into account the quality, quantity, and temperature? —Both quality and quantity are the only things worthy of consideration. We know miners are not salamanders, and cannot stand boiling-heat, 1 should say that from 80° to 90° is high enough to work in.

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15. With regard to shot-firing by fuse and electricity, which have you found the more reliable'/ —My experience in Waihi has shown me that there have been more hangfires with electricity than with the ordinary fuse. 16. More hangfires or misfires I—More1 —More misfires with the electrical appliances. 17. Then under ordinary circumstances you prefer to use the fuse?—l certainly do. 18. Under what conditions would you prefer to use the electricity? —If 1 were sinking in a wet shaft I should certainly prefer to use the battery, but under no other conditions. 19. You mentioned the term "misfire": what length of time have you known a shot to miss fire when fired by electricity? —Well, 1 believe on one occasion three shots missed, and the men did not go back for two or three days, and then one shot was known to explode. 20. With the ordinary fuse what is the greatest length of time you have known a shot to hang fire? —Well, as a rule, 1 have been too quick to see that it did not hang too long. I have gone back, but it is not a good rule. The longest would be about an hour. 21. Do you think an hour would be a fair time?—l think so. I cannot see the use of wastingtime for two hours. Perhaps the tamping may be damp, or something of that kind. There may be a bit of sawdust in the cap, and the fire does not get into the fulminate of mercury. 22. Mr. Fletcher.] With reference to conducting the air in your mine, do you think you have sufficient doors for the purpose? —Well, they are only necessary where the current has not a great velocity. We are only using them now and again for the trucks. Where the roads are used for traffic we put up brattice-cloth. 23. Where you do not put up a door do you put up more than one brattice? —Not more than one. 24. If one door is not sufficient could you not have another door, to be closed while the other one was open?-—I do not think it is as necessary in these metalliferous mines as it might be in a coal-mine where a lot of gas is generating. 25. But there are hundreds of collieries without any gas, and it is repeatedly done in them. You do not think two doors are necessary? —No, I do not think so. 26. Mr. Eeed.j If two doors were erected would they obstruct the trucking to a considerable extent? —Yes, if the trucks were going through that way. We do not put a door where they are trucking. 27. You can give us some important information as regards the hours of labour? —Well, 1 suppose by the time the men have gone up and down, had their crib, and talked a little politics and so forth, pretty well an hour and a half would be spent. 28. What would you say was the average working-day ? —About six hours and a half. 29. Supposing there were six-hour places, would the average working-day be six hours less one hour and a half?— Yes; but I would not like to say that every man did that. 30. Say four hours and a half to five hours : would that cover it? —I think it would. 31. What part of Western Australia were you referring to? —Kalgoorlie and Peak Hill. 32. How many hours do they work in Kalgoorlie? —Eight hours. 33. Are there any six-hour places?— No. 34. Do you know the temperature in the shade in Western Australia?— From 100° to 115°. 35. Do the men complain about.working outside in those temperatures?— Not very much, if they are covered with light clothing. Ido not mean to say it is very comfortable, but, still, they do not suffer very much. 36. Would 110° in the shade possibly represent 140° in the sun? —I could not tell you. It would mean a considerable difference —I do not know how much. 37. Mr. Dowgray .] Do I understand you to say that you hold a coal-mine manager's certificate ? —Yes. 38. How does the system of ventilation in gold-mines compare with that in coal-mines? —That depends. If you refer to the Waihi Mine, we have ventilation there which is quite sufficient and more than sufficient for all the men and animals that are employed. In a coal-mine you would get mechanical appliances to produce it. We do not need that. 39. But do you not think that you may have it in the levels and not in the faces?—As the manager told you, he has a blower which supplies the faces. We must have mechanical appliances to supply the air in the far-away places. 40. But do you not need regulators in the shape of brattice-cloth to send the air up these rises? Do you not think that would be better than your system?—l do not see it. We have ample ventilation, you see. We know in a moment when we want a brattice-cloth. 41. Are you in the habit of travelling up those ladderways?—Yes, as much as any man present. 42. Do you think the stopes are adequately ventilated?— Yes. 43. Do you consider there could be any improvement?— There is no stope perfect. 44. Could you suggest anything? —If I suggested anything it would be suggesting a superfluity. We have all we want. 45. Can you ever get a superfluity of air? —Well, if we went in for any mechanical appliances they would be superfluous. 46. Would it injure any workman to have a superfluity of air? —No. 47. Do you not think a workman would be the better off with a superfluity? —I do not think you can give him too much, but I think he has already got sufficient air. There may be a little heat in places, but still the quality and quantity of air are there. 48. But if they installed a large Sirocco fan, and put in a superfluity of air, would that not reduce the heat?—l question very much whether an increase in volume would reduce the heat. You want a refrigerator to do that. 49. Did you not hear Mr. Gilmour say that he had put up an extra rise : was that not a superfluity?- —It was to take away the foul air. 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50. Does it not sometimes occur that there is only one inlet into a stope?—Perhaps in the shrinkage stopes. 51. Sometimes one of the ladderways is stopped up?— They have to suffer the inconvenience of that for a day. 52. It is only practicable to put ladderways at each end. Could you not put a ladderway up alongside the pass?— There is no pass in the shrinkage stopes. 53. Mr. Parry .] You said, Mr. Coombe, that the men in Western Australia work hard : during your experience have you ever known any men work harder than the men in the Waihi Mine?—l suppose they work hard enough in the Waihi Mine, but I do not know that they work any harder than the men anywhere else. They may work under more favourable conditions in the Waihi Mine than in most other mines. 54. What hours do the men actually work on an eight-hour shift? —I do not know exactly how much. They have their crib, and then it depends upon what they are talking about; it may be politics and it may be socialism. 55. Is it not a fact that if the men were working a six-hour shift they would be able to work more constantly?—l do not know. I always had to work eight hours. I was one of those unfortunates. 56. Did you ever feel that six hours was sufficient to work in a hot place?— Well, there are places that six hours was quite enough to work in—cold, wet places. 57. As regards Elsegood's stope, do you think the temperature there was too hot for a man to work in over six hours?—l saw Elsegood's stope yesterday, but I do not know that it was very uncomfortable. Of course, the men have two machines going there all the time. 58. How long did you stop there? —I suppose I was there more than half an hour. 59. You say that the brattices are put up in different places where they are required. Do you not think they are required in several parts of the mine to send more ventilation up into the stopes?—We may overlook a place sometimes, but the management and shift bosses are always looking round to see where they can make any improvement. They may overlook a thing, and it may not be done quite so quickly as it ought to be, but generally they attend to matters as quickly as possible. 60. Is there anybody employed in the mine to see that those doors are put in and kept shut? — Ido not think so. The shift bosses delegate men to put up the doors. 61. So that a door might be down or a brattice torn down for some time?—No; the shift boss goes round his section every day, and sometimes twice a day. 62. During your experience in the Waihi Mine have you found that the circulation of the air lias been somewhat altered by the mullock in the stope?—lt might, possibly, if one pass gets choked, but that would not cause any detriment to the stope except for a few minutes. 63. Have you noticed that some stopes in particular contain the smoke all day? —I certainly have seen places where the smoke seems to hang round somewhat long. 64. What is the cause of it?— There may be a block in the level up above, or an atmospheric change may account for it. 65. The air-currents are not always the same? —No. 66. Then mechanical ventilation would be an advantage?— Well, whilst there are alterations in the current they only reverse the course of the current; the current itself is not altered, though it may be reversed. 67. Would not the air-current be more uniform if there were mechanical ventilation? —Yes, perhaps, but it would be of no advantage. 68. You do not think any system is necessary in the Waihi Mine to take away the smoke from the bottom levels, and the vitiated air?—No, I do not think it is necessary just now, because I have not found very much smoke. For a few minutes after the men have fired a good number of holes perhaps you might get some smoke. 69. Do you think working in those stopes has a bad effect upon a man?— Well, I do not know. I suppose it has a tendency to affect him. The miner is not supposed to have the most pleasant and longest life, but at the same time I think the conditions under which the men are working in the Waihi Mine would compare more than favourably with any place I have seen yet. 70. Mr. Seed.] What is your opinion about the appointment of shot-firers? —I think that would be an insult to the contractors. I would not care to be the man who attempted it. Besides, I do not think there would be any advantage. 71. What is your opinion as to the necessity for having two men at the winding-engines?— If you did that you would want to duplicate every office in the mine. It does not matter what position a man holds, there is always something'about it that may be unsafe. 72. Supposing two men were necessary, do you think it would be possible to prevent them from conversing? —Knowing men as I do, I do not think so. 73. In all engine-rooms that you know of is there not a notice prohibiting men from speaking to the driver? —Yes, it is posted up on the door. To have two men there would be a source of danger, and would tend to increase the liability of negligence. 74. Are you aware of a recent accident in the Energetic Mine, where with two men in the engine-room they killed a man between them. The accident occurred during the last twelve months ?-—No, I do not know of it. 75. Mr. Parry.] As regards shot-firers, you said it would be an insult to the men. Have you ever had any complaints from the men as to the effects of using dynamite when they were hot?— They get rubbing their heads or faces before washing their hands. I have felt the same effect myself. 76. That is to say, a man who was cool would not be so likely to be affected as a man who was working laboriously?—He would be pretty hot by the time he had used much dynamite. 77. Mr. Dowgray.] It does not follow that the place where he is preparing a hole is very warm? —You know that a man who is working by any hole certainly gets fairly warm.

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WaIHI AUGUST, 1911. Linton Moore sworn and examined. (No. 30.) 1. The Chairman.] What ara you? —A miner. 2. How long have you been mining?— About thirteen years. 3. Where? —In New South Wales and New Zealand. 4. How long have you been mining in New Zealand?— About six years. 5. Where have you worked?—ln the Waihi and Grand Junction Mines. 6. Where are you working now? —In the Grand Junction Mine. 7. How long have you been working there? —About three years. 8. Do you hold any certificates? —I hold a mine-manager's certificate. 9. How long have you held it? —Since last March. 10. Do you hold any office at the mine? —No, I am simply a miner. 11. On what subjects do you wish to inform the Commission ? —I would like to make a few suggestions in regard to ventilation. I think every mine ought to have a proper system of ventilation. I think the dust is responsible for more deaths than explosions or falls of earth. A standard of quality of the air is much more important than a standard of heat, and no man should be allowed to work in a place which did not come up to the quality standard as regards the air; he should not be allowed to work there at all. I think that if such a standard were fixed the management of the different mines would find out some way for providing efficient ventilation. At present there are many places in the mines which are not fit for men to work in. 12. Can you suggest a workable rule by which such a standard could be ascertained? —There is one workable rule which might be insisted on, but possibly there are not many companies which would be prepared to go to the necessary expense. There should be some upcast shaft away from the working-places by which the air coidd be conducted straight from each level without going through any of the other workings. It would then perhaps be possible to conduct the foul air away and leave the air in the workings fresh. Ido not suppose every company would go in' for such a system on account of the expense. 13. You think there should be a separate shaft for ventilation purposes, which should be an upcast, and serve for all levels?— Yes, instead of allowing the air from, one level to circulate through all the other levels. 14:. How would you propose to ascertain the conditions which you consider sufficient to close a place—how are you going to measure it ?—lf you measured the quantity of dust, and found more than, say, four times as much as the average quantity of dust on the surface, it should be considered unfit to work in. I think some such scheme should be devised. 15. What elements would you take into consideration in deciding when a place was unsuitable to work in?—l would take into account the dust first, and the noxious gases, and the quantity of air, though that is already provided for. At present the air is measured with the dust and fumes as well: that ought to be done away with. 16. Who that is available would be competent to decide when those conditions exist on a place to an injurious extent?—l think the Inspector of Mines and the workmen's inspector conjointly ought to be able to decide that. If the workmen's inspector was not in a position to analyse the air, it could be done by a local chemist. There is no doubt about the importance of the dust in connection with the matter, because any man who works in a mine for twenty years will be either dead or so much crippled as to be unfit for anything else. 17. Have you had anj- experience of working rock-drills or poppers?—l have had experience with rock-drills, and think they are all right, but as far as the popper is concerned I would advocate its abolition. 1 have never worked one, and do not intend to do so. I have, however, seen men who have worked them, and they have come out of the place looking as though they had been working in a flour-mill. 18. Have you ever seen them trying to work a popper with a water spray?—l have seen them at it, and have seen them with the drill stuck in the hole. If they do not use the spray the drill comes out easier, and consequently there is a tendency for the miner to work without the water. Most miners do not understand the injury they are doing to their system by breathing the dust, and they are not overparticular in using the water even with the rock-drill, with the result that the dust is frequently seen flying through the air. 19. Would you suggest that where rock-drills are in use it should be made compulsory for the miners to use the water?— Yes, I certainly would. T have also another suggestion to make in regard to spraying places after firing. Some simple and inexpensive spraying arrangement should be used in winzes, drives, and passes leading out of stopes after firing, with a view to laying the dust and fumes to enable the men to got their air a little purer. 20. You mean by using a hose or a pipe?— You would not need a hose. If you had some pipes arranged in the winze so that the water could be turned on it would get over the difficulty. It would not have to be too far up the winze or it would interfere with the ventilation. In crosscuts the fumes are not so noticeable when you use water. A spraying arrangement here and there through the mine would be very beneficial. 21. Have you had any experience in artificial ventilation by means of a blower or a fan?— I have had experience with a water-blast. 22. Have you any suggestion to offer as to the use of mechanical appliances?— Yes; I consider that it is very important that the air circulated into the mine by means of a fan should be fresh air. A fan is sometimes set up where there is only foul air, and that is driven into the face for the men to breathe. 23. That is to say, it should be set up in an intake, and not in a return airway? —Yes. 24. Have you any remarks to offer in regard to ventilation ? —I wish to say a few words as to hot and wet places, and to the fixing of a standard temperature.

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25. Have you had any experience of the wet*and dry bulbs and the taking of temperatures?— I have not taken any temperatures in the mine, but only experimentally. I understand what it means, however. 26. Have you any suggestion to make with regard to a standard temperature for hot and humid places? —I think the standard should.be set at about 80° dry bulb, and in anything over that the men should work six hours. 27. That is, assuming that the air is otherwise quite clear, and that there is nothing more than the' temperature to be taken into account?—l think that is a good-enough temperature to set. In my experience there are very few places where the air is as pure in the mine as on the surface. It would be quite fair to both sides to set the standard at 80°. Sometimes the miner would consider it a good thing at 80°; in most cases, however, it would be bad enough. If you have no standard set for quality, then you might set the temperature standard at 80°; but if you have a quality standard fixed you might make the temperature standard a little higher. 28. Have you any opinion to offer as to the height of stopes?—l think the height of stopes should not exceed 8 ft. or 9 ft. from the mullock. 29. Have you had any experience as to accidents either in the mine or in connection with machinery?—l was in the Grand Junction Mine when Anderson was killed. At Cobar I have known men blown up through misholes. I hays not had much experience of accidents in Waihi; they have seldom happened on my shift. 30. What is your opinion about the firing of holes either by hand or by electricity? —I think that all holes in shafts, rises, and winzes should be fired by electricity, and good caps should beused. I think that is a matter which should be placed in the hands of the Government, because we cannot depend upon getting first-class material from the makers. If a good cap were obtainable we would have some reasonable amount of certainty of the holes going off. A great deal of trouble is caused by defective caps or detonators. 31. For firing in stopes and faces do you recommend the use of hand-fuse or electricity? —I do not think there would be any advantage in using electricity in stopes. I look upon electricity us something which gives a man a chance to get away; but in the stopes you get better results with the fuse, and it is safer. Electricity is probably the more satisfactory in wet places. 32. In regard to safety, how many holes should a man be allowed to fire at one time with a fuse I—There1 —There is this to be taken into consideration in connection with that matter: that if you tire only two or three holes you have the disadvantage of going back and breathing the dust and smoke twice. If two men were spitting the holes it would be reasonable to allow them to fire four each. They could fire eight holes in one place safely. 33. Have you any opinion to offer as to the appointment of shot-firers?—Do you think the proposal, if given effect to, would be an advantage in a mine as against men firing their own holes? —I am looking at it from the point of view of the number of accidents. In my own experience I have known of accidents which would never have occurred if shot-firers had been employed. There was one such case in Cobar, where a man was blown to pieces; and in the case of Mr. Franklin, who was injured in the Waihi Mine, his accident would not have happened under a system of shot-firers. 34. Was it the result of incompetency ?—No, it is the result of the contract system. We are all eager to make as much money as possible. Franklin went back earlier than he should have. The Cobar accident I referred to occurred in the Occidental Mine; fired a hole, and went back and started to load it up with powder before it was cooled down. The other accident was due to the same cause —the hole was fired with gelignite, and it did not come out. They went and loaded it up again, and in about twenty minutes it went off, and they were both killed. 35. Do you suggest that the shot-firer should also determine when the men should go back? — There is a provision in the Mining Act about misholes, but it does not seem to be enforced. It is very difficult, I know, for the management to deal with these cases, because they cannot see the men always. 36. How would the shot-firer get over that difficulty? He would simply fire the hole, and would not wait unless there was a mishole? —No, he would not wait. I am only mentioning a few cases. Ido not altogether agree with this proposal to appoint shot-firers. 37. How long do you say should be fixed as the time which must elapse before a man goes back after a mishole? —It is set at three hours. 38. But you say that is not observed. What do you think is a reasonable time? —I think an hour would be reasonable. Three hours would make it too long, though I have known a hole to hang fire for twelve hours. 39. What implements do you u.se when you have a mishole to deal with?— Whenever I fire a hole Ido not go in for tamping; 1 always use clay. I never have any difficulty in getting the clay from the hole in order to put a new fuse in. It is easy to get the clay from the collar; you can pull it off. 40. Are there copper prickers provided in the mines? —I have never seen them in Waihi. 41. Supposing a man does tump his hole, what is the general method adopted for getting to his shot? —He has to use a scraper, and I have known some to drill their shots out; several men do that even now. They use all sorts of dangerous methods. Provision ought to be made to prevent men from tamping holes right from the bottom to the top. 42. Under the contract system who provides the tools? —The company. 43. Are you provided with copper prickers?—No, I have never known any one to be provided with them in the mine. Ido not know whether there are any there. 44. Mr. Dowgra;/.] In connection with shot-firers, do you not think it should be part of the shot-firer's duty to fence a hole off in case of a misfire, with a view to minimizing accidents : do you not think, if only from that point of view, they ought to be appointed ? —Yes, from that point of view.

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45. Do you not think that, in the event of their being appointed, the fencing of holes should be portion of their duties? —Yes; but I think the miner should undertake that. I myself have always made arrangements in such a case to prevent any one going into the place. 46. You may have adopted that course yourself, but others do not do so. The shot-firer could attend to it? —Yes; though in the case of a big mine it would be a difficult matter. He could not be in every place at once. 47. But a shot-firer could be appointed to look after a certain portion of the mine? —Yes,.in that case he would be able to watch them. 48. So you think that from that point of view the appointment of shot-firers would minimize the risk*of accidents?— Yes, it might be the means of preventing some. 49. In connection with the ventilation, with your experience, both practical and theoretical, you do not see any difficulty in the way of ventilating a mine so as to prevent the fumes from passing from one level to another?— No. Of course, it would be more difficult in metalliferous mines than in collieries, but I do not think it is impossible if brains were brought to bear on the subject. Whether a man gets miners' disease or not is not of very much concern to the company. 50. You do not think as much attention has been paid to the matter as possible?—No; brains are only brought to bear on the subject in coal-mines in order to avert explosions which might destroy the property of the owners. 51. Do you think that no provision is made in gold-mines because there is not so much risk of destroying property?— There is not so much reason to fear gas-explosions, and the matter is therefore not of so much importance. 52. I suppose you are aware that for the purpose of inquiring into accidents the Mining Act provides that the inquiry shall be held before a Court, consisting of the Warden sitting with two assessors (appointed by the Warden), who shall be the holders of first-class certificates as minemanagers : do you think that is a fair tribunal? —No, not at all. 53. Are you aware that there is such a thing in this district as a mine-managers' union, with its head office at the Thames?—l have heard of it. 54. It is to protect one another? —Yes. 55. Do you think one mine-manager would go against another? —[Question ruled out by Chairman]. 56. Could you suggest an alteration in the constitution of that tribunal? —Yes; I would suggest one mine-manager, the Warden, and the president of the miners' union. 57. Do you think that would be a more unbiassed tribunal?— Yes; you would have both sides represented then. 58. The Chairman.'] What do you think of the Warden alone being the tribunal? —I think it would be better as I have suggested it, because the Warden would have the assistance of the manager and the president, who would be practical men. The Warden would not understand the case himself. 59. By saying that the Warden would not understand you mean that he would not have had any experience in mining detail?— Yes, he would not have any practical experience. 60. Mr. Parry. .] You say it is very important to have a quality standard fixed for air? —Yes. 61. In the event of the working-face complying with the quality standard, but the temperature being high, say, over 80°, what would you suggest ?—lf the air was proven to be as pure as it was on the surface I think a man could work his eight hours even at 84° or 86°, but when it gets higher than that it should be a six-hour place. If there is no quality standard set the temperature standard should be 80°. 62. 84° oi' 86° wet or dry bulb?— Dry bulb. 63. What would you think the wet buib should read? —There should be a difference of 3° or 4°. With the temperature too dry the mine is liable to be dusty. 64. Have you had any experience in working in hot places? —I have worked in the Waihi and Grand Junction Mines, and most of my places in the Junction have been hot places. 65. What effect has it had upon you? —I have suffered a good deal from boils, and lam also very liable to blood-poisoning from the slightest scratch. It is due to the system being run down as the result of working in these hot places. A man feels very languid and fit for nothing but lying down when he has done his day's work. 66. Do you think the temperature underground is more injurious to a man than the samo temperature on the surface? —Yes, because I think the sun plays an important part in healthgiving. A man underground is not able to enjoy the sunlight at all. 67. Therefore you contend that it is more injurious to work underground even if the temperature is the same as on the surface? —Yes. 68. Do you think there is a necessity for fixing a standard? —Yes. 69. You said that you knew of a ease where a shot hung fire for twelve hours and then exploded? —Yes. 70. Was that in Waihi? —No, in New South Wales. There were only two of us working- in the tunnel, and we fired when we went off work at 4 o'clock. My camp was near the tunnel, and early in the morning I was wakened with the report. 1 struck a match, looked at my watch, and found it was 4 o'clock. 71. How do you account for that? —It would be a faulty fuse which might smoulder away for a long time, and when it reached the powder it would spit again and the shot would go off. 72. Have you worked in very many wet places?—T have worked in wet shafts in New South Wales and also in the Junction. 73. Have.you had to use oilers in those places?— Yes. 74. Are they comfortable or healthy?—No, they are not very comfortable, but I cannot say for a fact whether they arc* unhealthy. I find Tarn going n bit bald through wearing an oil-lm).

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75. Do you know of any effect that the oiler may have upon a man's- health I—l cannot say. that 1 know of any ill effects, but we are all aware that anything which prevents the air from getting to the pores of a man's body is bad. 76. When a man is compelled to wear an oiler by reason of the wetness of the place what would you suggest should be done? —I think it ought to be a six-hour place. 77. What is your opinion of the risk run by miners when being raised or lowered with only one man at the engine?— The only risk I know of would occur if the driver were seized with a sudden fit: the men in the cage descending the shaft would very likely be bumped on to the clips at the bottom and killed. 78. Did it ever appeal to you that the miners were running a risk with only one man at the engine? —1 had never given it much thought except when reading about accidents which have occurred through overwinding. I have never thought about having another man there, but considered that brains should be brought to bear to devise some other arrangement. 79. Some automatic brake which would stop the engine if a man took his foot off? —Yes. 80. So that you think something is required?— Yes. Any one is liable to take fits. I have fainted myself, and I am considered fairly strong; it might happen to any man. 81. Do you think mining a healthy occupation?—No, I do not. 82. What is your opinion of the system of bulling holes—what effect has that upon a miner's health?— The fumes generated by gelignite as well as the dust have an ill effect upon a man. I know they go straight back when they bull a hole, and in that way, too, I think they run a danger. If they did not go back for, say, twenty minutes I do not think there would be danger. 83. What is the reason for bulling holes? —They do so to bring down a lot of burden. 84-. You agree that the appointment of shot-firers would tend to minimize accidents? —Yes. Of course, to be satisfactory you would require to have a good many shot-firers, and if they were to watch the men to see that they carried out their instructions there would be a considerable cost to the mine. 85. Do you think that where life is at stake the cost that would be involved by the appointment of shot-firers should be taken into consideration ?—No; in my opinion a man's life comes first. 86. AVhat is your opinion as to sanitary appliances?— For one thing I think that a freer use should be made of disinfectants, and that the pans should be placed a little further away from the travelling-ways than is the case at present in some places. 87. Have you known any men suffering ill effects from poisoned hands or chafed feet as the result of working in the levels? —I have had my own feet blistered and sore, and in the changehouses I have seen other men worse. 88. What remedy would you suggest to overcome that' difficulty ?—The only way would be to keep the roadways dry, and have footboards to walk on. 89. What is your opinion as to the necessity for having liniment and first-aid boxes at different central places? —I think it would be a good idea to have them always handy on each level, and also for shift bosses to have some knowledge of first aid. It would also be a good thing for some of the men and other officials of the mine to know a little about it, in order to be able to render assistance in case of accident and make things more comfortable for the injured party. 90. You think that all the necessary appliances should be close at hand at each level?— Well, they should be kept in a place where they could be procured in two or three minutes —first appliances, lint, and bandages. 91. The Chairman.] You mean also stretchers and tackle for rescuing a man out of a shaft or winze? —Yes, all necessary things for the relief of the sufferer. , , 92. Mr. Parry.] Have you any recommendation to make as to accidents in shaft-sinking? —A good penthouse over the top of the shaft is wanted, and a good strong stage-board. As far as my experience goes, I think every practical precaution is taken that is possible. In some placeß there should be a stronger stage-board. 93. Is it just a plain stage-board? —Yes. It is any amount strong enough for the weight of one man, but for carrying more it should Joe a 3 in. board. Probably we could get it if we asked for it, but it ought to be the rule. 94. What is to prevent stage-boards slipping either way? —If a miner used his head a little he could easily prevent it from slipping. You cannot nail it down, because you require to move it about. I do "not know of any practical precautions that can be taken, but a careful man does not need any. 95. In the event of a man not using his brains, is there any provision in the boards themselves? No, Ido not see any necessity for one.~ ; A man would be mad if he did not fix the board. 96. Have you ever worked on stage-boards with cleats at each end? —No. 97! Do you think they would prevent the board from slipping? —You would have to have the cleat in the wall-plate. ■ . 98. But, supposing the cleat was in the inside, would the bar be so likely to slip lengthwise?— I cannot see'that it would be any great advantage. If it was al2 ft. shaft, and the board was the right size, I cannot see any possible danger of it slipping even without a cleat. 99. Do you feel any ill effects from working underground? —I do not feel as fit as I did before coming to Waihi.' I notice a difference in my general health since T came here. I have never been medically examined, but I feel I have a load of dust on my lungs. 100. How long have you been working in hot places in Waihi ?—About three years. lOl! Mr. Cochrane.] As to a standard quality of air, do you think it is necessary?— Yes. 102' Wiil you amplify your answer by telling us what standard you would have? —I would take the ordinary pure air on the surface as a basis. Now, the dust in a mine is far more dangerous than the dust on the surface. I am offering the suggestion that when mine-air has, say four or five times as much dust as the average surface air no man should be allowed to workin it until it is made pure, and it should be also free from noxious gases.

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103. Would you aiso indicate the percentages of the different gases to be fixed as a "standard? —With CO 2 , if you had more than, say, 2or 3 per cent, in the air, it would be bad to work in. 104. Have you heard the proportion of carbonic-acid gas which Dr. Haldane says is injurious? —I would set it at the quantity that would put a miner's lamp out; 1 think it is 4 or 5 per cent. •105. If other witnesses said 125 per cent, would you go against that? —No. 106. The Chairman.] Do you know Dr. Haldane's standard? —No. I only offer the suggestion that a standard should be fixed by medical men who thoroughly understand what amount of gas would be injurious to a man. I think you could get a medical man to set a standard unbiassed. 107. Mr. Cochrane.] You do not offer any suggestion yourself other than that a quality standard should be fixed: you would accept, say, English high authorities? —Yes. 108. Then you said there must be sufficient air : do I understand you to mean that you would maintain a quantity standard as well? —Yes; the quantity at present prescribed is enough, but a quality standard ought to be set too. 109. Both?--Yes. 110. Ihen, coming to the dust question, how would you arrive at the proportion of dust in the air?— Well, I am not an expert on that question, but I know that could be ascertained. 111. A dust-counting machine? Are you aware that there is such a thing?— There was a, contrivance which was used by a medical man on the Commission which inquired into the matter at Bendigo and Ballarat. They could arrive exactly at the quantity of dust in the air by holding up a piece of paper in the airway, and the dust would adhere to one side of it. 112. Are you aware that saturated air is much worse than air of the same temperature but less saturated? —Yes, I am. 113. Would you set a standard temperature for the wet bulb? —No; I would set it at, say, about 80° for the dry bulb, and 77° or 78° for the wet bulb. I think it is necessary to set it for both. If you go in for quality, of course, you must have a standard for both. 114. Then you told us that you thought it would be a good thing to have a difference between the two bulbs of 3° or 4°? —Yes. 115. Then there is a practical difficult}' in the way : if you found the two bulbs reading only perhaps 2° different, to insist upon the standard would have a tendency to close the mine? —I do not think it would be necessary to form a hard-and-fast rule. To prevent any difficulty it would be well to set a standard for one bulb. 116. The wet bulb?—No, the dry bulb. 117. You say that most miners do not understand the injury they do to their system by inhaling dust: can you put on record why that is so?— Because they do not read or they do not think what harm they are doing to themselves. They have any amount of examples of the effect of the dust, and yet I have noticed men working rock-drills dry when they could have used the water. 118. Is the injury not very slow? —Yes, it is slow, but it varies. In Bendigo and Africa men have been killed in two years. It might take twenty years; it is according to a man's constitution, and to the quantity "of the dust he inhales. 119. When miners are afflicted with tubercle as well as miners' complaint, would you be in favour, in the interests of the other miners, of excluding them from working in the mines?— Yes, for the sake of the other miners; and provision ought to be made for those men to be maintained. 120. The Chairman.] By whom? —By a tax on the company; or, perhaps, the Government which allowed the system to be in existence might pay something towards it also. 121. Mr. Cochrane.] You put your finger on a weak spot in connection with electric firing when you mention that the detonators were at fault. How would you remedy that? —I think the only reliable way is to make the manufacturer of the detonator come under Government supervision. 122. How would you put a check upon them by the Government? —They would not have the same incentive to make a cheap article. 123. The Chairman.] I understood you to mean that the . Government should undertake the manufacture of them? —Yes. 124. Mr. Cochrane.] Then how would you deal with the leakage of the current in wet places? You say it is more liable not to go off? —The use of properly insulated conductors is the only way to deal with it. 125. In regard to the appointment of shot-firers, can you give us any idea of what proportion of men should go to one shot-firer ?—One shot-firer might be able to look after one lode in one level. It might be half a mile between two lodes, and one man could not be running from one to the other. I want you to understand that I am not an advocate of this system, and I only saj' this because I think the appointment of the shot-firers might minimize the risk of accident. 126. As to the general system of ventilation, have you anything to recommend as to keeping winzes and rises well ahead of the workings I—lf1 —If a reef were a few hundred feet away from the shaft it is a good idea to have the winze down, so that ventilation would be provided. 127. Have you any special recommendation to make in regard to that? —Only what I have already said : that I think it would be a good plan to have a special upcast to take the air from each level, or some way of purifying the air before it goes into another level. 128. Then, as to strong charges, where the explosive is a nitroglycerine compound, are you aware that that is forbidden under tha Act? —Yes. 129. Would you recommend that that provision should be repealed?— Well, any one with any practical experience will understand that that is rather a foolish clause in the Mining Act. If you leave two or three holes in the face you would have to bore another hole. As regards boring within a certain distance of the bottom of the discharged hole, that is impossible altogether : you must continue the face on. T would recommend that tamping should be done only up to within a foot or so of the collar of the hole.

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130. Mr. Reed.] How long have you been a certificated manage)-?— Since March last. 131. Have you ever acted in an official capacity in connection with any mine?— Yes, in New South Wales. My father was manager of a small mine, and when he has been absent I have been in charge. 132. How many men were employed? —About twelve. 133. Has your knowledge of ventilation been obtained through connection with practical installation-works or from text-books ?—Practical. 131. Where did you gain it? —In connection with the water-blast in the Waihi Mine. We have nothing to do with the installation of the fans in the Junction Mine. We see them installed, and, of course, we have to breathe the air they deliver to the faces. 135. You recommend separate returns and upcasts to carry the air up from the stopes?—Yes. 136. Will you describe how that could be done without traversing the levels? —You would have to have a separate system of ventilation for each level. It would be a more practicable idea t<i make some attempt to purify the air as it is circulated. 137. But you recommended at first that there should be separate return air-courses : why did you make that recommendation? —Because I think it would be a good idea, and not an impossible one. It would take some planning to do it, because you would have to provide a different system for each level. 138. When the air becomes vitiated in the stope how would you deal with it?—As I said before, 1 think it could be purified with water. It would have to pass tJirough a spray in the winze. 139. What quantity per man would you think it necessary to purify?— You would want to purify the whole air in the mine. 140. As to the removal of the gases? —That is for a better brain than mine to deal with. 141. So you are only discussing the dust, and not the gases?— That is so. lam not a high authority on gases, but I believe they are a very injurious element, in metal-mines. 142. You stated that in the Junction the dust is driven into the working-faces from the return airways? —Yes, in some places. 143. Where? —On the Mary lode. 1 consider that place is hardly fit for a man to work in. 144. Can you tell us from which airway the dust is driven and into which working-place?—lt comes from somewhere in No. 5 level—l cannot say exactly where. 145. You mentioned a standard of 84° or 86° wet bulb? —Yes, that is for a place where the air is proven to be as pure as it is on the surface; but if that standard of purity is not reached 80° is higli enough. 146. Do you mean with a small proportion of dust or noxious gas present?—l think the dust is the more important. Of course, the noxious gas must be taken into consideration also. 147. You mentioned 4 or 5 per cent, of carbon-dioxide : have you any idea of the maximum in the Waihi mines? —No, I do not know. o 148. Would you be surprised if the Inspector of Mines said that 1 per cent, has never to his knowledge been exceeded ?—I do not know, and I do not think it plays an important part at all. 149. Can you tell us which noxious gas plays an important part?—l do not know of any noxious gas. 150. Are you aware that there is any carbon-monoxide in the Waihi Mine? —No. ■ 151. So that really the amount of noxious gas is not of importance?—lt is not altogether negligible, because in some few isolated cases there has been too much carbon-dioxide to work in; but it has no lasting ill effect upon a man. The dust is of much more importance. 152. The mines here are not seriously troubled with gas?— No. 153. You have no complaints to make about the gas? —No, only the fumes created by explosions. 154. In regard to the fumes created by explosions, can you tell us what you would regard as a dangerous proportion of carbon-monoxide .in those fumes?— A very, very small proportion is fatal. 155. What would you regard as fatal? —It should not be in the air at all. 156. Would you be surprised to know that the maximum quantity of carbon-monoxide found in the Waihi Mine is 00025 per cent. ?—No, I would not be surprised. 157. Would you think that a very infinitesimal proportion of carbon-monoxide? —It is worth looking into, because any quantity is very dangerous. 158. Are you aware that Dr. Haldane reported that the least quantity which affects a man is o'o2 per cent., or ten times as much as has been discovered here? —No, Ido not know. I agree that the gases are not very troublesome in the W/aihi mines. 159. You stated that accidents have seldom happened on your shift ? —Yes, very few. 160. Which shift have you worked on?—I have worked on every shift. 161. Consequently you have never had any accidents on the night shift? —From my own experience I know that lam not awake properly when I get into the face. We prevented one man from actually walking down a shaft when lie was asleep. He deliberately lifted the guide-bar, and was about to walk down. 162. Suppose a man contracted fibrosis in another country and came to New Zealand, would you have him excluded from the mines? —He should be examined before starting work in a mine. 163. Suppose he came from Australia, should he be sent back?—We cannot take that into consideration. 164. You said that 3 r ou did not recommend electrical firing for stopes and drives, but only for shaft-sinking? —Yes, and in winzes and rises. 165. Are copper prickers in use at all with high explosives?—No, 1 have never seen them used. 166. Are they meant for use with high explosives or blasting-powder?— They could be used with both. They might be some use in removing the tamping.

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167. Have the miners ever asked for copper prickers about here? —No, I have never known them to do so. 168. Would you like a shot-tirer to lire your round of holes? — J. would not object if 1 weru working on wages. 169. And if you were working on contract? —No. When we are working on contract we like to get the best results, and men prefer to fire the holes themselves. 170. So that you get the better result from firing your own shots?—No, but you would not have to wait for the shot-firer. 171. If you were on wages what would you do while waiting for a shot-firer ?—lt would be in the interests of the company for a shot-firer to be up to his business and to be always handy. 172. As regards the use of poppers, if the spray were played across the drill-hole would it be blocked ? —Yes, in a good many cases. 173. If it were played across the mouth of the hole instead of into the hole? —1 have had no experience with poppers. If you do not put it into the hole the hole will clog, and if you attempt to spray round the collar it will clog them also. 174. As to Franklin's accident, did it not occur on Saturday evening between 6 and 7 o'clock? —Yes, I believe so. 175. Was his object to get up the shaft earlier than usual? —No. 176. What was the height of the stope where Anderson was killed? —On one side it was about 7 ft., but the debris was uneven in the shrinkage stope. On the other side it might have been 12 ft. 177. What was the height above him when he was killed?— Somewhere about 7 ft. or Bft. 178. You would consider that an unsafe height?—No, I do not think that is excessive, and if they had not been rushing things it would not have fallen on him. 179. What temperature did you work in in Cobar? —I have not worked in uncomfortable temperatures except in Waihi, though there are hot places in Cobar. 180. Which mine, according to your experience, is the hottest, the Waihi or the Grand Junction? —I think it is a toss-up. I have never measured the temperatures. 181. You are working in the Junction now, I believe? —Yes. 182. Is the Junction as hot as the place in the Waihi where you worked? —There are more cool places in the Waihi Mine than in the Junction. 183. And yet they have a ventilating fan in the Junction? —Yes; but you understand as well as Ido that the natural ventilation .in the Waihi Mine helps them. They need not study the matter of ventilation so much. 184. Then you think the Waihi Mine is better ventilated than the Junction?—ln a lot of places it is. 185. You stated that the Waihi Mine is cooler than the Junction. How do you account for that when they have a fan in the Junction? —One reason, perhaps, is that the rocks in the Waihi are not so hot as those in the Junction Mine. 186. So that the fan in the Junction Mine does not materially cool the nicks?—l do not sup , pose they go in for cooling the rocks so much as for cooling the air-currents. 187. Where does the air get heated in the mine—it enters fairly cool?—I suppose it gets heated from the rocks. 188. So that the fan does not cool the air heated from the rocks? —The fan gives a sufficient quantity of air, so that the heat of the rocks does not have much time to affect the air as it passes. 189. The fan in the Junction is drawing 44,000 cubic feet of air per minute: do you not think that quantity should reduce the temperature of the mine? —Yes, it lias a very beneficial effect. They have tried to ventilate the Junction, and have done more in that direction than lias been done in the Waihi Mine. 190. And yet you state that the Waihi Mine is cooler than the Junction 1— -Yes; they have the advantage of a big upcast shaft at No. 2. _ . 191. You said that by sending a large quantity of air in the mine you remove the moisture? If y OU followed what I said you would, know that I advocate the use of sprays. 192. Did you say that the heat dried the atmosphere in the mine? —The heat tends to make the air more moist. . 193. Would that settle the dust? —No, not where you are boring with poppers or drills. 194. Mr. Parry, ,] As regards the ventilation of the Junction compared with that of the Waihi Mine, I understood you to say, in answer to Mr. Reed, that there were more cool places in the Waihi than in the Junction : is that in the ratio to the number of places?— Yes. There is another thing I would like to suggest, and that is that the men who are working in hot and wet places should have the preference when going up the shaft at the end of the shift. They come out into the chamber, and it is very uncomfortable standing there waiting. 195 Mr. Dowgray.] Do you think that if there were a system of ventilation by doors and brattice at the bottom of the'stopes to send the air up the ladderways from the levels it would improve the stopes considerably?— Yes. 196 In regard to your proposed system of ventilation, it would require one intake and one return for each level?— Yes, and you would require to have a different system for every level. The expense would be very great. 197 Then it would only mean splitting the air in the shaft?—lf there were four levels m the mine you would have to have four times the amount of air in circulation. It would be a better plan, I think, to try and purify the air. 198 The Ghairmaii.'] In view of the quantity ot carbon-dioxide which you said would have an ill effect and of Dr. Haldane's standard, do you wish to alter your evidence in that connection?— Yes, I made a mistake there. I would like to put in Professor Haldane s estimate of I - 25 per cent.

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199. • You said that miners suffering from miners' disease or tubercular disease should be provided for? —Yes, miners' complaint. 200. But there is a distinction between that and consumption, which is transmissible .'■■ I only meant miners' disease contracted in mines and consumption in the ordinary sense. 201. Your suggestion is that consumptives proper should not be allowed down mines'? —They certainly should not, both for their own and the miners' good. 202. And y6u think that a man who has been incapacitated with miners' disease should be provided for? —Yes. 203. You would exclude when the disease is infectious? —Yes. 204. Would you exclude when the disease is non-infectious?—l would exclude him for his own sake. He should be looked after by the State, and provided with a pension paid for by the companies. John Gaynob sworn and examined. (No. .'51.) 1. The, Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. How long have you been mining?— About fourteen years. 3. Where have you gained your experience?—ln Tasmania and New Zealand. 4. How long have you been mining in New Zealand ?—About eight years. 5. Where? —In the Waihi, Grand Junction, and Extended Mines I am working in the Junction at present. 6. How long have you been working there? —About eighteen months. 7. Upon what do you wish to inform the Commission? —Generally as to sanitation, ventilation, and accidents. 8. What have you to say in regard to ventilation? —I wish to corroborate what has been already said by previous witnesses as to the necessity for a better system of ventilation in the mines here, so as to make it more comfortable for working. 9. Have you had any experience in the taking of temperatures? —No, but T have been in places where temperatures have been taken, and I know the effects of them. 10. By whom were they taken?—By the workmen's inspector, and the Mining Inspector sometimes. 11. Can you quote any particular instances of temperatures being taken? —Yes, I know of temperatures being taken in the Junction and Waihi : they were 85° and 86° by the dry bulb. 12. Are you aware how that temperature affected you? —I thought it was too hot for any man to work in for eight hours. After his day's work is done under such conditions a man does not care to do anything but lie down, and he feels very languid. 13. What have you to say as to sanitation? —I consider that disinfectants should be used, and concrete flooring should be put down. 14. Are you a contractor? —I am practically, because I have a share in a contract. 15. What do you think of the proposed system of shot-firing?—l think it is a good suggestion. I have seen it in vogue on the " other side," and I think it would minimize accidents if introduced here. 16. You think it is a workable scheme? How many places could one shot-firer attend to? —It is hard to say, but it would soon regulate itself. I could not say how many places a man could attend to. 17. Have you had any experience of firing shots with electricity?—l have been with men using electricity, but I have never used a battery myself. I consider the battery is the better method in winzes, rises, and shafts. 18. Do you work a rock-drill or popper? —I have worked them both. I have not worked a hammer drill a great deal. We worked one with a patent for running the water through the drill, but the men got impatient and threw the water appliances aside, preferring to bore dry. 19. Are they boring dry?— Yes, in many places. 20. But water is provided for them ?—lt did not act. 21. Is not a jet provided apart from that going through the drill which you mention?—l do not know. I have not seen them in the Junction. 22. Where are you working in the Junction now?—ln the shaft. They use rock-drills there. 23. Have you seen attempts made to use water with a popper? —Yes, they use a new style of popper, which does not seem to be a success. They tried spraying round the collar, but it seemed to get clogged. 24. Have you come into contact with many accidents? —No, I have not been connected with any serious ones, but I should certainly say that the trucking-roads and the trucks could be in a better condition than they are at present. There are a lot of accidents caused through strains when working with a heavy truck, and the system of trucking in both mines is responsible for a great many injuries. Each man has to truck his own dirt. 25. How are you going to prevent those injuries?— Well, the trucks are stiff, the lines bad, and matters generally could be much improved. 26. What weight should a truck, be for a man to be able to handle it with reasonable ease? They would require to be a good deal lighter than they are at present. Tf the roads were made so that the trucks would not come off it would not be so bad. 27. Is there any other matter you wish to refer to?— The change-houses could be a good deal more up-to-date than they are. they seem to have a better system for drying clothes in the Broken Hill Mine and in other parts of the world. Here the drying facilities are poor, and there is not enough space. _ 28. Mr. Parry.'] You say that you have seen temperatures taken in different places where you have been working, and that they'have registered 84° and 86°: you have had a good deal of experience in hot places? —Yes.

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29. Do you think it is necessary to fix a standard temperature ?-—Yes, very much so. 30. From the experience you have had in places where temperatures have been taken, what would you suggest as a standard?—lt should not exceed 78° dry bulb. 31. Have you done much work in wet places where it has been necessary to wear oilers?— Yes, but not for some time. 32. Is it uncomfortable or inconvenient working with oilers?— Yes, and also injurious; it affects a person's kidneys. 33. Where it is necessary for a man to wear oilers what would you suggest? —It should be a six-hour place. A man gets (lamp, and the oilers drive it through him. 34. What is your opinion in regard to the question of an assistant engine-driver?—l think it would be a good idea. It would help to minimize the risk of accident. 35. Have you ever suffered with blood-poisoning or chafed feet?— Yes. I have also noticed that with the slightest scratch a man gets poisoned. It is simply the result of a man's system getting run down. 36. Do you think the practice of bulling holes has a tendency to vitiate the air?— Yes; it should be done away with. 37. What effect does it generally have upon a man's system? —It makes him very shaky and nervous. 38. Have you worked with men who could not fire or load a hole that was bulled? —Yes, they were too nervous to attempt anything like that. There are some men in such a condition that they go all to pieces when they touch dynamite. ■'!•). Where does it affect them? —They can hardly hold anything in their' hands, they tremble so, and get nervous. They also suffer from headaches caused by going into smoke and fumes and handling explosives. 40. Is there much difference in the ventilation of the Junction Mine as compared with five or six months ago? —Yes; I think it is very much improved, and that is the general belief of the men. There were some very hot places a while ago. 41. Do you think the mine has cooled down considerably? —Yes. 42. What is your opinion as to the necessity for doors and brattice to take the air into the stopes?—l think it would be an improvement in many cases. 43. Have you suffered any ill effects from following mining, and have the doctors ordered you to take a spell from the mines at any time?—No, but T have felt it has a bad effect on me. Ido not think I am as well as I was some time ago. 44. AVhat do you think is responsible for the majority of accidents which happen in Waihi ? —The contract system, under which the men have an incentive to rush matters, and which causes a great number of accidents. 45. Do you think a standard height should be fixed for stopes?—Yes; they should not be more than 8 ft. 46. Have you had much experience of working in stopes?—Yes, and some very high ones, in which I did not feel very safe. 47. What is the greatest cause for the stopes being high?—l think it is purely a matter of cost. They know that by getting higher stopes they get more stone broken. 48. And so it is a financial gain to the worker to take the stopes high? —Yes. 49. The Chairman.'] Do you blame the contract system or the contract price? Supposing a higher price were paid, would the same result follow? —Probably if the price were higher the risk might be minimized, but under present conditions the men have to go the pace in order to make a living. I believe the contract system should be done away with altogether, as practically 75 per cent, of the accidents are the result of it. 50. Mr. Cochrane.] With regard to the weight of the trucks being the cause of strains, have you an}' suggestion to make?— The only suggestion I can offer is that the lines should be properly graded and the rails fishplated. 51. In regard to miners suffering from infectious lung-disease, would you have such men excluded from the mines in the interests of the other workers?—l do not know. Some men are forced to go into those places when, if they had an opportunity to get a living elsewhere, they would not follow mining. It is not altogether a matter of choice, though it would be better for themselves if they kept away from mines. 52. If provided for, would you have them excluded? —Yes, because then there would be no hardship to them. 53. Do you think the miners would submit to be examined for the purpose?—l could not say as to that. Ido not know that they would. I have no opinion to offer on that point. 54. Mr. Beed.] You recommend that the standard temperature should be fixed at not more than 78° dry bulb?— Yes. 55. How do you fix that standard? —I have been working in places where the temperature has reached that point and considered it was too hot I have seen the temperature taken by the Inspector of Mines when it registered 80°, and I know that was too hot for me. 56. You said that oilskins should only be tised in six-hour places. Who should decide when it is time to put them on? —I do not know—perhaps the Inspector; but a man would naturally put them on when he was getting wet through.' 57. So you woiild establish a standard of wetness on oilskin-coat standard I— When it was necessary to wear oilskins it should be a six-hour place. 58. Who would decide that —the miner? —Yes, I should say that the men would decide. They would not wear oilers if the conditions were good enough to work in without them, because they are an encumbrance. 59. In regard to the assistant engine-driver, where would you recommend that he should stand? Somewhere close to the engine, so as to be able to tnke a hand if anything went wrong. 60. Close to the other man? —Fairly close.

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61. Would you allow them to converse?—l do not think they would be likely to converse too much when the men were being raised or lowered. The driver in charge of the engine would have his attention on the work, and would not have time to talk. 62. You heard previous witnesses state that the Waihi Mine is cooler than the Junction?— Yes. 63. Do you agree with that? —Well, I know that in some places it is. 64. Have mining accidents increased at Waihi recently?— Yes, a groat number of men have been suffering with poisoned hands, and so forth. 65. Do you think they have increased as compared with last year?— Well, they were very heavy last year. At the same time, I know there are a large number of men at the present time suffering from bad hands. James Richard Speaking sworn and examined. (No. 32.) 1. The Chairmxm.'] What are you?—A miner. 2. Have you any office at the mine or other qualification?—l hold a mine-manager's certificate. 3. How long have you held it? —About two years. 4. Are you working as a miner?— Yes. 5. How long have you been mining? —About eleven years. 6. Where?—ln New South Wales and Waihi. 7. How long have you been working in Waihi? —Nine or ten years. 8. Which mine are you working in now?— The Junction. 9. How long have you been there? —Nine months. 10. Prior to that where were you working? —In the Waihi Mine. 11. On what points do you wish to inform the Commission? —I have evidence to give as to sanitation, temperatures, and ventilation. 12. What have you to say in regard to sanitation?—l think disinfectants should be provided to lessen the smell. 13. Have you anything else to suggest? —The ventilation could be better and more adequate. H. What do you consider adequate ventilation ?—Well, I have worked in places here where a candle would not burn, and we have had to retire. 15. In which mine? —Both in the Waihi Mine and in the Junction. 16. How long ago is it since you had that experience in the Junction? —A few months ago. 17. Have you any suggestion to offer in regard to the improvement of the ventilation? —I think fans should be provided. Good air should be made to travel round as many working-places as possible. That is all I have to say as to ventilation. 18. Have you had any experience of accidents? —No, I have not had any experience of them, nor have I been in the vicinity where any have occurred. 19. Have you any opinion to offer as to the necessity for appointing shot-firers? —Speaking for myself, if I bored a hole I would like to fire it myself. . I am not in favour of the appointment of shot-firers. Ido not see the necessity for them. 20. Have you had any experience with firing by electricity? —Yes. 21. What is your opinion as to that? —Electricity is very good in certain cases, but I do not think it is as efficient as fuse. 22. Mr. Dovigray.~\ In connection with the ventilation of mines, do you consider that a mine in a district such as this is better ventilated by a fan than by natural means?—l think the natural ventilation is the better if you can get it. 23. Is it possible to give a man an. adequate amount of ventilation to reduce the temperature in mines such as you have here, with working-places 1,000 ft. below the surface, by that means?— No, not with natural ventilation. 24. Tlien you think, when they get down that distance, a fan is necessary to cause a greater velocity?— Yes; when you get down 1,000 ft. it all depends upon the downcasts. 25. Did you work in the Junction prior to the installation of the fan? —Yes. 26. Do 3'ou think the fan has reduced the temperature of that mine?—l could not say, but I do think it has in any hot places. I cannot remember what the temperature was like then. 27. Do you think it is possible to have a companion level with two crosscuts so as to conduct the fumes from one level without allowing them to mix with other places? Would they have any difficulty in driving two instead of one level, with, say, 20 ft. between them?—Of course, they could do it. 28. Would that improve the ventilation? —I "dare say it would. 29. The fumes then would pass from the stope into the return air-course : they could have two winzes put from this back crosscut into the stope to take the air and fumes instead of their going into the level above? —Yes, that could be done, I expect. 30. Could you improve the ventilation with brattice or doors down at the bottom of your ladderways?—Yes, possibly. 31. That would facilitate matters if it were done in these shrinkage blocks where you have a ladder at each end, would it not?— Yes. 32. Do you think it would be any improvement to increase the size of the ladderways, which are at present 3 ft. by 3 ft., for ventilation purposes? —If you make the space bigger, of course, more air would carry up into the stope. 33. Mr. Parry.'] Have you worked in hot ends?— Yes. •54. What effect does working in those places have upon you?—lf makes you low-spirited and depressed. I know for a considerable period every month I seem to have lost energy. And I had no less than ten boils upon me.

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35. Have you taken any temperatures at all?—No, I have not taken temperatures, but you yourself took one where I was and said it was 87°. That is the only time I have seen a temperature taken. 36. Do you think it essential to fix a standard temperature? —With regard to that I cannot say what difference it would make, but I certainly thought 87° was too high. 37. How much lower do you think the temperature should be for you to work comfortably in ? —I could not say. I could not fix upon a temperature as tiie right thing—a fair temperature. 38. That temperature was 87° dry : you say that is far too high?— Yes. 39. And 3*ou think a standard temperature should be fixed?— Yes, certainly, in the interests of the health of the miners; but what that standard should be I would not undertake to say. 40. As regards the assistant engine-driver, has it ever appeared to you that a great risk is being run by workers with only one man manipulating the handle at the engine.'—Of course, there is always a certain amount of risk with only one man in charge of an engine, and with, say, six or twelve men in the cage simply relying on the one man. 41. Do you think it reasonable to suggest that an assistant should always be present when men are being lowered and hauled ? —Of course, it is a case where there have been so very few accidents resulting from only one man being in charge. I do not know of any myself through the enginedriver losing control, but certainly it would be safer to have two men. Probably the second man could arrest the engine before any damage was done. 42. What is your opinion as to the necessity for making a recommendation on the subject? — Of course, if a man is apt to lose control of the engine the men's lives would be in danger, but if there were another man there he could probably stop it. It would certainly be a guard against the danger. 43. Have you ever worked in any wet places?— Yes. 44. Is it inconvenient to work with oilers on? —Yes; but you get accustomed to them to a certain extent. 45. When the conditions necessitate a man wearing oilers what would you suggest?— Well, the usual thing is that he should work six hours only in that place. 46. Do you think that six hours is long enough to work in them? —It is a recognized fact that six hours is sufficient. 47. Do you think that the practice of bulling holes is detrimental to men's health? —Possibly it is, but I have never gone into the matter. Generally, if you bull a hole the result is added fumes, which cause headaches and one thing and another. 48. Have you suffered from headaches from that cause? In your experience have you noticed many men who cannot handle dynamite?—l have had one experience with a man who asked me to load a hole because he got headaches when loading. 49. Do you think the temperature in the Junction Mine has decreased or the ventilation improved during the last five or six months I —l do not know. Where I have been working I do not think there has been much difference in the ventilation. 50. You have never had a general run through the mine? —No. 51. On account of your not having travelled through the mine you could not give an idea on that point?— No. 52. What do you think is the cause of the majority of the accidents which take place in Waihi? —That is a question I cannot answer. 53. Mr. How many years have you worked in the Waihi Mine? —Something like seven years. 54. Do you consider the ventilation in the stopes satisfactory in the Waihi Mine?— The ventilation in the Waihi Mine may be good in one particular part and not in another. 55. Do you think it is bad in some places?— Yes. 56. What would you recommend for its improvement?—lt all depends on the winzes or drives. 57. Do I understand you to mean that you would have better connections between the levels by winzes and passes ?—They generally do put winzes and passes through. 58. Do you think they are sufficient? —Not in all cases. 59. You suggest that 87° dry is far too high for a standard temperature?— Yes. 60. Which mine was that in ? —The Junction. 61. Can you say if the wet temperature was also high ?— I cannot say. 62. It might have been? —It might have been. 63. Do you see any practical difficulty in the way of treating the wearing of oilers as a criterion for a six-hour shift? —Of course, it is possible that a man might want to wear an oiler where it might only be dripping, and still there would be no necessity for a six-hour place. Ihe conditions might be good enough. 64. And he might have rheumatism?— Yes. 65. Would you have a six-hour place fixed on the basis of the wearing of the oiler, or as it is at present?—lt is a difficult problem. 66. Can you give any opinion?—No, not at present. 67. Have you anything to say as to the use of penthouses in shafts? —It is a recognized necessity. 68. You have them? —I think the pump shaft is exempted from that. 69. Have you any remarks to address to the Commission on that point?— No. 70. Mr. Beed.'\ You stated that you do not believe in shot-firers?—No. For my own part, I would sooner fire my own hole. 71. And are you speaking as a contractor?— Yes. 72. And if you were a wages-man would you prefer to have a shot-firer?—l do not know, but a man who bores and loads generally has his own ideas on the matter.

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73. if a wages-man had shpt-firers in the mine he would have a little time for a rest while the shot-firer was being found —it would be a spell for him ?—That is quite possible. It has been adopted here once. 74. Was it a failure?—l do not know. 75. Was it discontinued? —Yes. 76. You do not know why? —No, I do not know. 77. In regard to ventilation : as the Waihi Mine has natural ventilation is it not superior to the Junction Mine in that respect?—l cannot say that it is, though I prefer natural ventilation. 78. In which mine l\ave you experienced the most heat? —I have worked in the Waihi Mine, but it is so long ago that I could not say. 79. Have you worked in American mines recently? How did you find they compare with New Zealand mines as regards safety precautions and accidents?—l worked in the mines in Butte City for two months and a half, and every day there were reports of accidents in the newspaper. 80. In the mines there are the safety provisions as good as they are here? —New Zealand compares very favourably with them. 81. Is it superior?— Yes, I think so. 82. Is Waihi superior?— Yes, I think Waihi is. 83. Were those mines in Butte City very hot? —No. The ventilation was very bad—worse than I have ever known in New Zealand. 84. You said that, so far as your experience goes, you have not noticed any difference in the ventilation of the Junction Mine recently?— No. 85. Did you work in the Junction Mine before the installation of the fan?—-Yes. 86. So that the fan has not improved the working-places? —No, I do not think it has. 87. How do you account for that? —1 cannot say. 88. Do you think the temperature of the rocks is so great that it heats the air as it goes into the working-places?—lt certainly would have that tendency. 89. You stated that one man might decide to wear an oilskin where another man would not: consequently you think that the oiler test is unsatisfactory for a six-hour place? —In my opinion it is. Benjamin Burgess sworn and examined. (No. 33.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—An engine-driver. 2. What certificates do you hold? —A winding certificate and also a first-class stationary certificate. 3. How long have you held them?— The winding certificate since the 11th May, 1896, and the first-class certificate since about four or five years later. 4. Where, are you working?—At the Grand Junction Mine. 5. How long have you been there? —About two years and a half. 6. Where were you before that? —At Pelawmain, in Australia. 7. How many years' experience have you had altogether in engine-driving?— Fifteen years since I got the ticket, and six years previous to that. \ 8. On what matters do you wish to inform the Commission I—l1 —I would like to place before the Commission a matter regarding the signals. There is one signal which I consider very unnecessary. When quartz is being sent up they ring three, whereas I consider one is sufficient. 9. Does that lead to any confusion? —In the coal-mines one ring is sufficient, but in goldmines they ring three. It is apt to confuse the driver, and also hampers the work of the chamberman. If, say, two hundred, trucks are being sent up, he has to ring four hundred times more than is necessary —that is, four hundred times more than would be rung in coal-mines. 10. You consider that the gold-mine signals should be uniform with the coal-mine signals?— Yes, in regard to that one signal. I have had seven years in coal-mines using the one-ring signal, and could never see anything wrong with it. 11. Is there anything else you wish to place before tlte Commission? —Yes; I consider there should be a telephone connecting the driver with the chamberman, in order to keep them in direct communication with one another, in case of a cage hanging up in the shaft. A cage may be in the shaft for an hour, but if there were a telephone you could communicate with the chamberman and let him know about it, or vice versa. Those are the main points I wish to bring forward. 12. Have you ever experienced any difficulty or threatened danger when winding with only one man at the engine? —I have heard"of cases, but 1 have not experienced any myself. I read of a case some time ago, and heard of another just lately. 13. From your experience, is there any likelihood of danger? — Well, there is always a chance. 14. What chances are there of an engine-driver losing control, and where would the danger li e 'i i n the went of a man being suddenly taken ill, if there were men in the bottom cage they would probably get hurt, and the other one would go up to the cut-off. 15 Do you think the risk is sufficient to warrant any steps being taken in the matter, and, if so, what would you suggest?—Of course, where life is in danger it is always worth while doing 16. What would you suggest? —I do not think it would be a bad idea to have an extra man at the engine when changing shifts. 17. How could that be accomplished without having a spare man all the time I— Ot course, it would be no use having a man there who had no certificate. 18. He would not be allowed there in that case?—No; the man who is going ott could stand by till the men went down. 19 There is a provision in the Act which prevents a man being employed more than eight hours?—Of course, he would not be working the engine; he would be simply standing by.

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[15. BURGESS-

20. Mr, Dowgray.] In connection with the matter of signals, have you no communication between the engine-house and the braceman at all?— Yes, we have a speaking-tube from the brace to the driver, but not to the chamber. 21. When men are going to use the shaft how does the chamberrnan know you are going to haul ? —He does not know. 22. They may be doing something at the brace? —Yes, sometimes it might be ten minutes before we can haul. 23. Are you prepared to recommend the alteration of that signal? —Yes; I think the coalmines signal is what we want. You must signal back before men get on the cage, otherwise they do not know when they are going-up. There is a return knocker in coal-mines from the enginedriver himself. 24. And you think there is the same necessity in gold-mines?— Yes, I do not see that there is any difference. 25. You would recommend a uniform code of signals in gold and coal mines? —Yes. In coal-mines there is generally only one level; in some cases we have as many as five, but we have different signals for different wards in gold-mines. It would be a good idea to have uniform signals. 26. Mr. Cochrane.] Would you insist upon these telephones being installed in all mines whether large or small?—l only suggest it. I would not insist upon it. 27. Do you suggest it for the small mines? —No, only where they are in, say, 40 ft. or 50 ft. 28. But, apart from the depth, if there were only a few men working?—lt would be a good thing in one case as well as another. 29. Mr. Heed.'] To your knowledge, has the present system of knocker-lines resulted in an accident at any time ?—Only as far as the upsetting of trucks and the capsizing of them down the shaft goes. 30. Would the telephone not require that some one should be always at the levels to attend to it ? —Of course, there is no use sending a message if there is no one there to take it. 31. It would necessitate a man being always there? —There is always some one there. 32. It could not be depended upon if a man was not constantly there?—l only suggested it merely as a standby. 33. Would you recommend the examination of winding-engine drivers as regards their eyesight and liability to fits?— Yes. 34. How frequently?— About every four or five years. 35. In view of your experience as a winding-engine driver, do you approve of learners being permitted to wind men before they obtain their certificates? —No. 36. Are you aware that at the Energetic Mine at Reefton a man was killed through that cause? —I beliove 1 read about it. 37. Arc you aware that the New Zealand Inspection of Machinery Act permits learners to wind men ? —A learner should not be allowed to wind men until lie has his ticket. 38. You have known of learners winding men in New Zealand? —I cannot call to mind a case just now. ' 39. How would you recommend that a learner should qualify? —By winding material while the shaft is safe, and the certificated man is standing by. 40. As to the examination of winding-engine drivers in New Zealand, do you think it is strict enough? —No, I do not. 41. What additional test would you suggest?—l consider that a winding-engine driver should not get his ticket until , he has been in charge of boilers. 42. Have you any other reasons why these men should be better examined than they are at present? Would you like to see a candidate submitted to a practical test of winding mineral? —Yes, and T consider there should be a winding-engine driver on the Board of Examiners. 43. Will you tell us how the examinations are conducted? —I was ex ami nod. verb ally for about two or three hours, and I had to answer twenty or thirty questions. 44. Were you submitted to a practical test?—-Yes, and the manager came down and saw me winding. 45. Were you tested by a medical man as to eyesight? —No. 46. Your certificate was granted without your being subjected to examination as to liability to fits or anything of that kind? —Yes. 47. Have you ever known of an instance of an accident happening through sudden illness of the driver? —Yes, I heard of one this morning. 48. As an engine-driver, would you yourself like to have another man standing at your heel all day long? —No. 49. Do you think he would attract your attention? —No. 50. Supposing he conversed with you, would that not be inclined to harass you?— Yes, possibly it would do so to some men, but not to an old winder. 51. The most dangerous point is when the cage is approaching the top : supposing you were to take a fit with the cage in that position, do you think a man standing by would have time to get out of your way and seize the levers and arrest that cage before it went over the top?—lf he had had experience of the same engines he could, but perhaps he would not be able to do so always. On the engine I am working at present he could do so. 52. Are you not working one of the most superior engines in the country?— Yes, 1 believe it is. 53. Do you think, with an ordinary engine, a man would have time to arrest the cage under such conditions? —It all depends. A good deal depends on the man. 54. Do you not think that his instinct would be to catch the driver in preference to grabbing the levers experienced man would jump to the engines regardless of everything else.

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55. You think the second man would not invariably be uf assistance? —It depends who he is. Of course, it is a matter of opinion. 1 consider that an experienced man would be of great assistance. 56. Do you prefer a telephone to a speaking-tube for communicating with the chamberman? —I could not say; anything at all would do. 57. But you spoke about the necessity for a telephone : do you agree with me that a speakingtube is equally good?— Yes, if a speaking-tube would carry the distance. It is doubtful whether you could speak through a tube 2,000 ft. down a shaft. 58. Do you approve of winding-ropes being spliced?— Well, 1 am a wire-rope splicer myself, and I consider 1 can splice a rope so that it would be as safe as it was when new. 59. Do you consider it safe to use spliced ropes?— Not where men are travelling; there is always a doubt. 60. Do you think the tests with light cages on top of the shaft are adequate ?—There is a doubt about that. 61. What is your opinion about men giving signals promiscuously? Do you think that any man should be allowed to come along and give the signals at the levels?—lt is not the correct thing, but sometimes } r ou cannot avoid it. 62. The Chairman.] Would the telephone obviate the necessity for that? —Of course, you could then communicate. 63. Mr. Reed.] Have you an automatic brake on your engine?—We have an air-brake. 64. Have you seen a visor arrangement so that when the cage reaches the top steam is cut off and the cage arrested? Do you approve of that appliance?— Yes, it is much better to cut them off there than it is to let them be drawn right up to the top. James Long Gilmotjh recalled. (No. 34.) 1. The Chairman.] You are recalled in connection with the currents of air in the Waihi Mine taken by you : can you supply the Commission with data as to when you took those measurements, and how and where? —Yes, I have a record of what 1 took. On the Bth August, 1911, in No. 4 shaft, I went down to No. 4 level and took a reading in all the compartments. The east compartment was 6 ft. by 3 ft. 7 in. I took the size of the guides out of that, and it gave 2T16 cubic feet. I placed the anemometer in the shaft and took it round the different parts of the compartment, and found it registered 530 revolutions per minute, and with 30, to be added for friction of the anemometer, it gave 560 altogether. That, multiplied by the area of the compartment, gives 11,849 ft.; and then I took the other compartments just the same. The centre compartment gives 12,526 ft. The pump compartment gives 6,160 ft. I took the other readings which I have given you in the same way. 2. Before you leave that matter I would like to know where were the cages in the shaft? — When we went to No. 4 level I had the cage rung two levels below us, and the readings were taken with the cages stationary. 3. What effect do you think the shaft being fn use would have upon your readings, with the cages going up and down? —I put the cages in such a place that we would obtain'the air which would go through the mine if the cages were working. I sent the cages away for that purpose. 4. Is there any way of measuring with the cages working? —Not with the cages working; you have to hold the anemometer over the compartment. 5. Mr. Cochrane.] When you were in the witness-box before you gave me the volume of air circulating in a number of different currents. I then asked you if you could give us the number of men which each of those currents supplied, and you said that you had not that information with you, but it could be supplied : can you do so now? —I have not the information. It would be a month's work for two men to prepare it. 6. Can you tell us even approximately? —I gave the number of men in the mine. 7. You gave us that there were 26,000 ft. of air in one current: can you tell us how many men that current supplies?— No. To get that you would have to take all the working-places and the quantities, and, as I say, it would take two men a month to get the information. 8. Mr. Reed.] As regards measuring the air in the shafts, how do you hold the anemometer? —It is held horizontally. 9. It will register just as accurately that way? —That is the orthodox method of holding it. I have read of its being done in the Comstock mines in America, where the matter was gone into by the management very thoroughly. 10. Have you ever known of an anemometer being held any other way in a shaft?— No. 11. As regards the air-measurements you have given vis, what did you allow for the air from the rock-drills? —That is an extra; I have not given that. • 12. Your drills are working at a pressure of 801b. : have you any idea of the air one would account for ?—lOO cubic feet per minute. 13. What is the diameter of the largest drill you have?—3-J in. That would give off 100 cubic feet. 14. How many drills have you?— About sixteen or eighteen of the large machines, and about six of the small poppers. 15. So that they would provide a few thousand feet? —Yes, 1 had not taken that into my calculations as regards the quantity of air going into the mine. 16. Those drills would provide air in the working-faces?— Yes. 17. As regards the obstruction in the winding-shaft by cages, is not all ventilation, whether mechanical or otherwise, subject to the same intermittent obstruction? —Yes, that is the workingconditions.

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18. Mr. Doivuray .] Jn connection with the air-currents you gave us the other day you said that Bullson's pass did not connect direct with the surface? —1 explained that the surface level goes in 30 ft., and then liullson's pass connects with it. 19. Where does that air go to?—lt does not go to the bottom of the mine. We have these filling passes arranged so as to feed different levels with mullock. We have large openings excavated at the levels. It goes down a pass within 30 ft. of the level, and the dirt accumulates there. At one side there is a ladderway, alongside of which there is a pass, which lets some of the mullock down to the next level, so that the air gets round to that level. Sometimes it happens that the current does not flow freely for the last level, but it does so intermittently. 20. In connection with the taking of the reading of the air-current you said that you held the anemometer over the shaft when the cage was below you, and the other cage was in the other compartment ?—Yes. 21. That means that the shaft was clear to the surface?— Yes. 22. Then you said you measured the pumping-space in the same shaft? —Yes. 23. Do you think that is a correct way?— Our pumping-shaft has no connection with the winding-shaft; it is lined off. 24. What instrument did you use to take the reading?— One of Davis's make. It is a standard make. 25. Is it correct? —You have to,allow 30. 26. Have you ever had it corrected —they get out of order occasionally?—l have not had it adjusted since it was bought. 27. So tliat you could not say whether it is correct or not? —There is nothing wrong with it as far as I know. 28. Is there any place in New Zealand for testing these instruments? —Not that I know of. 29. Mr. Parry.] Why do you prefer taking the air underground in the shaft? —In the case of No. 4 shaft I took it in the shaft opposite No. 4 level plat. 30. Is it possible to take it at the intake of the different levels? —At No. 4 level in No. 4 shaft there is no connection, as the level is blocked. 31. But at the different places where the air is distributed is it not possible to get the air by measuring at each of the levels ?—Yes. 32. Would there be any difference in the readings taken when the cages are stopped and when they are going? —I do not know —1 have never tried; but theoretically Ido not think there would be any difference. Of course, if it were taken with the cages rushing past, they would have an effect upon the anemometer and spoil the reading. . , 33. How do you account for some of the Commissioners not being able to get a reading at No. 4 shaft? —I do not know. I was not there. 34. Then, if the anemometer does not register, the current cannot be regular?— You must take an average of several readings, say, over an hour : that is a fair way to take it. It is like taking a sample of stone from the mine : if you take all the rich stuff you spoil the mine. 35. Why is it impossible to give the Commission the number of men supplied by each current of air ?—As I said before, it could be supplied, but it would take two men a month to investigate the matter. One would have to be a surveyor, and the other would require a knowledge of the reading of anemometers and barometers to be able to find out what air was going from each split. 36. Mr. Cochrane.] My object in asking was so that we would be able to divide, say, the 26,000 ft. between the number of men and see how many feet per minute each got. It was not temperatures I was inquiring for, but only to find ovit what quantity of air each man in the different stopes would get?— Well, as 1 said before, it would take two men a month's work to prepare that information. Our downcasts are spread out and serve the same level by perhaps six places. They do not feed it to the men in one stope only, but all round that area —pretty well over three-quarters the area of the mine. 37. Mr. Parry.] You said in your evidence that the mine was adequately ventilated, and that each man was getting the amount of air prescribed by the Act. How did you find that out? —I have a certain amount of practical-knowledge, and in going round I notice the amount of air circulated, and so find that the air is adequate according to the regulations under the Mining Act. The Inspector of Mines has never told me that the requirements of the Act are not being complied with. He has made reference to certain stopes, and I have taken the readings and found that there was a sufficient air-current there. In places I have had six times the required quantity. 38. Is it owing to your system of distribution that you cannot supply these figures asked for ?—Yes. ' 39. Is it not a fact also that if these figures were got to-morrow, and readings taken at the same places the next day, the results would be different? —Yes. For instance, we are going to hole at No. 2 shaft along the Martha to make a connection with No. 6 shaft. As soon as we do that a large quantity will be taken away from the Empire lode. When we make these different connections the air-currents are changed. If we find that there are no movements in the air in places we have to put in doors and get a draught to go through. What suits for one drive will not suit for the next. 40. When did you take the air reading in Pearson's stope?—l have not the record here, but I know there was adequate ventilation. 41. How many months ago was that, can you say?—lt was when we put the winze through. 1 went along to find out if there was enough air to start the stopes, and found that the current of air was established before the stopes were started. 42. You did not take the current of air afterwards at all, then? —The rise was there, and 1 had no occasion to put the anemometer on it. You could take the candle-deflection. ITie travelling of the smoke is a far better guide than the anemometer. 43. But in stopes where the smoke stays?—l do not know any place where that happens unless there is a block in the winze. You are referring to an exception. It is easy enough to quote exceptions.

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44. You said in your evidence that you have eleven brattices and doors : could you tell the Commission how many you have put up in the drives for conducting the air into the stopes?— The whole of those eleven are for sending the air into the stopes. 45. And how many doors are put in the levels for taking the air into the stopes for ventilation purposes? —All these eleven indirectly, and some directly. 46. In regard to those that do it indirectly, does it necessarily follow that the air goes into the stopes?—Yes. If you go to the winze in the level above in any of the shrinkage blocks you will find a current of air coming out against which you cannot hold a light. Elsegood's stope is a place where there is a door to send the air up the travelling-way, and to get more air into the stope, because there is a little mineral oxidizing and heating there. 47. And you have not taken the readings in every stope with the anemometer, but only by your own observations ?—I have taken several readings in the stopes. 48. But in some of the stopes you have only taken practical observations, and you thought ? —Not " thought "at all, but made sure. I did not want an anemometer at all to tell me. I could tell by the smoke travelling. 49. A man cannot tell the number of cubic feet travelling without an anemometer?—Of course he can. 50. Give us an idea of how you measure it by the smoke? —Simply by timing the smoke travelling, taking the area, and working it out at so-much per minute. 51. Mr. Dowgray .] You say you test by the deflection of the candle? —Yes, that is a very good test. 52. At what rate would the air be travelling per second to give you a deflection of the candle? —I have read the annals of the Australian Commissions, and one of the Commissioners was here, and he said that if the flame was deflected there was sufficient air for a man to work in. 53. But should not the air travel at a certain velocity?—lt is the volume of air which is prescribed as wsll as the velocity. 54. Mr. Beed.] Are you aware of the minimum velocity that can be recorded on an anemometer ? —No, I do not know. 55. Are you aware that the smoke test is more accurate than an anemometer when the velocity is slow? —Yes. 56. Therefore, in a large area, you could have the air passing at a slow pace, and it might be recorded by the smoke but n<>t by the anemometer. You are aware that the smoke is a recognized test?— Yes." 57. But does not the smoke go along with the fastest current? Is the velocity- equal over the whole section of the air? —No, it is greater in the middle. 58. And the smoke will find the place where the velocity is greatest? —Yes, the temperature of (he air has something to do with that. 59. Consequently the smoke travels faster than the average air in the current?—l suppose it would have a tendency to do that. f>o. Do you make any allowance for that accelerated velocity when measuring the smoke? —No, I just make a rough calculation. Charles Coghlan sworn and examined. (No. 35.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —A carpenter, but I am working in the mine. 2. How long have you been mining? —About twelve years. 3. Which mine have you been in last?—l have been in the Grand Junction Mine practically the whole of the last four years. 4. What matters do you wish to speak on? —Sanitation, ventilation, and temperatures. 5. As to sanitation what have you to say? —I think they should provide up-to-date w.c.'s, with concrete floors and built away from the chambers, and arrangements should be made to carry away the drainage. Also, plenty of disinfectants should be used. 6. And upon ventilation? —Of course, lam not an expert upon ventilation. Most of my work has been done in rises. The only thing I wish to say is that they should put in fans in order to keep the places cool. 7. What description of work are you employed on when you are below? —Mostly winzes and drives. 8. In regard to temperatures, have you had any experience in the taking of temperatures?— No, only what the workmen's inspector has told me. 9. Have you seen temperatures taken? —No. 10. What have you to say as to temperatures?— The workmen's inspector informed me that one place where I was working was 81° and 84° on two occasions, and I consider those temperatures were too high to work eight hours in. Ido not understand about standard temperatures, but it ought to be under 80°. 11. Have you always done your own firing?— Yes. 12. As to the proposed scheme of having shot-firers, do you think that would work? —Personally speaking, I like to fire my own holes, but I think that probably if they had shot-firers it would minimize the risk of accident. 13. Have you any opinion to offer as to firing by electricity? —I think it would be the safest in rises, winzes, and shafts. 14. Mr. Parry.] You say that you have been four years in the Grand Junction Mine?— Yes. 15. Have you been working in hot places? —Yes, pretty well all the time. 16. Have you felt any ill effects from working in those places? —Yes, I have been pretty bad; in fact, I have been ordered out of the mine by Dr. Frazer-Hurst.

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[C. COGHLAN.

17. What did he say you were suffering from?—He said I showed symptoms of miners' complaint. 18. You have heard the evidence given by Mr. Moore and Mr. Gaynor : do you corroborate it?— Yes. 19. Mr. Reed.] Do you corroborate the statement made by a previous witness that the Waihi Mine is cooler than the Junction? — Well, I have only worked in the Waihi Mine for about a month, but 1 know that as regards the ventilation it would blow your hat off. 20. Would it blow your hat off in the Junction? —No. 21. Which stope are yon in? —I am on the surface. Thomas Feanklin sworn and examined. (No. 36.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you J —A miner. 2. How many years have you been mining?— About twenty. 3. Are you mining still '<—No, not now, since I met with my accident. 4. How long is it since you have been mining?— Since the 15th April last. 5. What are you doing now? —Nothing. 6. You met with an accident in the mine?— Yes. 7. Where?—ln the Grand Junction Mine. 8. How long had you worked in the Grand Junction Mine before your accident?— About three years. 9. What is it you wish to bring before the Commission? —I would like to make a few remarks in regard to sanitation, ventilation, and accidents. 10. What have you to say as to sanitation? —There should be more pans supplied below, and more suitable appliances. Where a crowd of men sit down to have their crib there should be a proper system arranged to look after the spare crib. 11. Are there not boxes provided?—ln some places there are. 12. As to ventilation what have you to say?—ln the Grand Junction Mine there are many hot places, and though they use fans the temperature does not seem to be reduced a great deal. The heat seems to be there all the same. I think, if the Waihi and Junction Mines were connected, it would have a tendency to give better air and better ventilation too. At one point where they connected the Junction and the Extended it was improved. 13. Have you anything to say in regard to accidents?— The height of the stopes should be regulated and kept about 8 ft. It would be better if that were done, and where that is not possible the timber should be used. 14. How did you meet with your accident? —I was shot. 15. Was it a mishole? —No. I had fired one hole and that went off, and I had several other holes charged. As is the custom, we put the fuse in and then coiled it in the sollar of the hole while we fired the others. Possibly a piece of bag tamping landed on the sollar of this hole and ignited it. When I came back T heard the fuse burning. I turned to run away, but I did not get far before the shot went off. 16. Have you had any experience of firing by electricity?— Yes. I certainly would choose the battery for firing in shafts. The fuse is better for drives or stopes. In a rise T certainly think it would be better to use electricity. 17. Mr. Dowgray .] In regard to ventilation, you are of opinion that it would improve the mines considerably if the mines were compelled to connect? —Yes, I think so. 18. You would recommend that provision be made in the Mining Act compelling the companies to connect up?— Yes, that is my suggestion. 19. How has it affected the Extended? —I do not know whether it has improved it or not. 20. In firing with the battery, if you wanted one hole to go off before the other, could you fire that hole first? —Yes. 21. So that it does not prevent you from firing any hole you want off first?—No; my reason for saying so was that it would take up more time. 22. Mr. Parry.\ Have you had any experience in working in hot places?— Yes. 23. Have you seen any temperatures taken, or have you taken any?—l have been present when they were taken, but 1 do not understand it myself. 24. What is the highest temperature taken where you have worked?—B4°. 25. Do you consider that was a hot place?—lt was too hot to work eight hours in. 26. Do you think a standard temperature should be fixed to avoid confusion? —I certainly think so. 27. Have you suffered from any illness which the doctor has told you was the result of working underground?— No. 28. As regards the height of stopes, do you say there should be a standard fixed?— Yes; about 8 ft. is quite high enough. 29. As regards the appointment of shot-firers what is your opinion I —l would like to fire a hole myself if I bored it. I know it worked in the Junction Mine. 30. Do you think it would minimize the risk of accident? —I certainly think it would. 31. Did it ever occur to you that a great risk is run by men being hauled or lowered when only one engine-driver was at the engine? —I think, for safety's sake, it would be far better if an extra man were at the engine while lowering and hauling men. 32. What is your opinion of the practice of bulling holes before charging them? —It is detrimental to the average miner. 33. Have you suffered any ill effects from doing that? —Not from that, but from the effects of dynamite; it has given me headaches.

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34. Are headaches common amongst miners? —Yes. 35. Do you think your accident would have happened if the battery had been used?—No, certainly not. 36. When you met with your accident that night were you firing in order to get up on top first? —No, we had plenty of time. After the hole went off we stayed down for ten or twelve minutes. 37. How did you think that accident occurred? —I could not form any idea, unless a spark lit the fuse. 38. You are satisfied that the fuse was not lit by you?—No, not by any of us. 39. Do you think it was possible for a piece of tamping to be blown on to the fuse from the other shot ? —Yes. 40. Have } r ou worked in many wet places ?—Yes. 41. Is it any inconvenience to work with an oiler? —Yes, very inconvenient, so much so that we used to throw them ofi. 42. So that a man would not work with an oiler unless he were forced to?—No, certainly not. 43. What would you suggest when it was necessary for a man to wear an oiler? — I certainly think it should be a six-hour place. 44. Mr. Cochrane.] What was the effect of making a connection between the Junction and Extended Mines? —I do not know with regard to the Extended, but it improved part of the Junction. 45. In view of that you would recommend that all adjacent mines should be connected?—ln Victoria and Western Australia they are compelled by the Act to connect. 46. Is it not left to the discretion of the Inspector whether they must connect or not?— Well, it is in the Act. 47. Can the Inspector order the mines to be connected? —Yes. 48. You would be agreeable to that provision being inserted in the New Zealand Act? —Yes. 49. And you would recommend the connecting-up of the Waihi Mine with the Junction?— Yes. 50. Supposing all the smoke and- vitiated air from the Waihi Mine were to come into the Junction. Do you see that disadvantage?— Certainly, it would cause a bigger volume of air. 51. Yes, but you might have more smoke in the Junction than at present?—l do not know. Of course, that may be; I cannot say. 52. You think it would be a wise provision to leave the matter to the discretion of the Inspector of Mines or the Inspecting Engineer?—l do not know. 53. Mr. Feed.] By connecting one mine with another might you not foul the good air in the one mine by the vitiated air of the other?—l do not think it would be that bad. 54. And what about one mine flooding the other one with water : would that be reasonable? —The water does not seem to make any difference here. 55. Yon only recommend the use of electricity for firing in shafts? —And also in rises and winzes. 56. Would you recommend its use in stopes?—No; I think it would be wise to use it only in the places I have mentioned. 57. You stated that fans did not much reduce the temperature in mines: why is that so? — It does not reduce the temperature a great deal. At the Junction they now draw out the air, but it does not reduce the temperature. They keep the gases down. 58. Do you think a fan would reduce the temperature in the Waihi Mine? —I have never worked there. 59. Do you think it would?—l was always under the impression that they would. 60. Mr. Dowgray.] The fan that you talk about in the Grand Junction is a blower? —Yes. 61. Was that prior to the introduction of the exhaust fan that they have now? —Yes. 62. So, of course, it was only like putting hot air in the face?— Yes, that is the trouble; it was not getting fresh air from the surface. William McConachib sworn and examined. (No. 37.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a mine-manager? —Yes, at the Grand Junction Mine. 2. How many years' experience have you had?— Twenty-one years. 3. How long have you held a mine-manager's certificate? —About eleven years. 4. And where have you gained your experience? —On the Waihi goldfields. 5. How long have you been in your present position? —Two years and a half. C>. And prior to that where were you employed?— For seventeen years in the Waihi Mine. 7. On what subjects do you wish to inform the Commission ?—I am prepared to answer any questions. 8. Have you anything to say with regard to ventilation?— Nothing further than that we are doing the best we can to ventilate the Junction Mine at the present time. 9. Have you anything to say on the subject of connecting up adjoining mines? What would the probable effect be?—l think it would be a good thing for both mines; it would set up really good ventilation. It is the secret of good ventilation to make connections between two shafts. It would give more inlets and outlets for the air. 10. And do you think it should be compulsory or discretionary?— Well, on fields like this, where water does not come into the question, connections help the ventilation a great deal. If there were any danger of an inrush of water it would be a difficult matter to decide. 11. Have you any remarks to offer in regard to temperature?—My experience of temperature is that it does not matter as long as the air is clear if it is not too high. I have seen temperatures of 90° with clear air which were not as bad as some I have known which have only registered 80°.

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12. But were either of them comfortable to work in?— Well, I do not suppose any hot place is comfortable. 13. Would you say that any reduction should bo made in the hours for places where those temperatures were registered?—lf the air is impure I think steps should be taken to put a greater volume of air through the place. If the air is impure it should be remedied. 14. Do you think a standard temperature should be fixed? —No, unless you put it pretty high. At 90° in some places it is not worse than in other places at 80°. 15. Will you give us your own opinion as to the objections that could be reasonably taken to the fixing of a standard temperature?— The temperature varies. Taking our own mine, what would be a six-hour shift at 80° to-day would not be one to-morrow. It depends also upon the air-currents. In many cases the men cannot tell. They will say it feels all right to-day, and you will find that the temperature is actually higher than in other places which they say are bad. 16. As a mine-manager, how do you think the appointment of shot-firers would suit? —-We have had shot-firers in our mine, and we have abolished the system. 17. Were they under the contract system?— They were firing for contractors, and also on a small scale for wages-men, but not generally for wages-men. 18. What was the objection to it?—We abolished them when we abolished the system of boring. My experience with them was that we had as many misholes as we have at the present time. 19. What do you consider the proper length of time that miners should remain out of a face after a misfire? —I think the rule should be an hour. Personally, I have gone back within half an hour when using fuse. My experience is that the hole ought to go in five minutes or not at all. 20. You have heard Mr. Gilmour's evidence as to his method of measuring the air with the cages in the positions he described : do you think, under those circumstances, he would get the average quantity of air travelling with the cages working?—As I understood Mr. Gilmour, he was standing in the airway with the cages down below. Had he placed the cages up above he would have got a greater volume of air. Any velocity that he got by the anemometer must have been caused by the air going down the shaft. 21. What we want to know is whether the test made would give the average current of air under working-conditions? —Well, after listening carefully to Mr. Gilmour, I think his test would be on the low side —that is, if I understood him aright as to the positions of the cages. 22. Have you any opinion to offer as to fixing a standard height for stopes?—We try to keep the stopes at 10 ft. from the solid, and succeed fairly well. Ido not see much objection to their being a little higher if the ground is good. At times it is better to pull it down and not leave it higher than a man. If a man standing on a block of wood can reach it, then I think it is all right. That is pretty well our standard. 23. In regard to the weight of trucks, it has been suggested that an undue amount of exertion is necessary when trucking : have you anything to say in regard to that matter?—l think if you provide good clean tracks it is all right. They may r be on the big side, but that cannot be avoided if you are to get the material up in the twenty-four hours. 24. What is your opinion as to the necessity for an extra engine-driver while shifts are being changed ?—ln my experience of twenty years I have never seen an accident such as it is sought to avoid by this proposal. I have never seen a man at the engine get suddenly taken ill, and I do not think the extra man would be able to stop an overwind. I do not think there has been a case of that sort on the field. 25. Mr. Molineaux7\ Have you any appliances for use in such an emergency?—We have three appliances—the catches on the side of the cage, the cut-off, and the detaching-hook. Thei-e is also the magnetic brake on the engine. 26. Have you an automatic cut-off and brake on the Yes. 27. Do you consider that periodical examinations of winding-engine drivers are advisable? —Yes. 28. How frequently do you consider they should take place?— Possibly once or twice a year. 29. Have you at any time known the safety-catches on a cage refuse to act?— Not when men were travelling. I have known them to fail when winding material. 30. When? —About ten years ago. 31. But not recently?— No. On the occasion 1 refer to I cannot say what caused them to refuse to act. Ido not remember the details. 32. How often are the safety appliances on your cages tested? —The side-catches are tested every Monday morning. 33. And the detaching-hook? —Once in every three months. We overwind the cage in the presence of the Inspector of Mines. 34. What precautions do you take to see that the ropes are in good order?— They are examined every Monday morning. 35. How do you examine them? —One of the officials makes an examination as they pass down. 36. And how do you judge when a rope is no longer safe?— When I see anything wrong with it, such as a broken strand, we take it out. 37. How long do your ropes remain in use?— The last pair of ropes we had for about three years. I cannot give you the actual dates. I think that two years is long enough for a rope winding, say, 8,000 or 10,000 tons per month. 38. What steps do you take to equalize the wear on the rope : do you reverse it, or cut the ends? —I do not think I have reversed the rope at any time. 39. You have never used a spliced rope for winding men? —No. 40. Do you consider it would be unsafe? —I could not say. You would want expert advice on that point. 41. Is there a ehamberman stationed at overv level?— No.

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42. Do you consider there is any danger in allowing men other than the chamberman to knock the cage away? —I think it preferable for the chamberman to ring the men away, one level at a time. That is our procedure. 43. In your opinion would it lessen the probability of accidents to have two engine-drivers?— If there is a possibility of such an accident occurring as the result of a driver fainting the presence of a second man might avoid the accident. As a rule, however, such accidents are the result of overwinds, and I do not think the second man would have time to get hold of the appliances quick enough to prevent an accident. 1 have never known anything like that to occur. 44. As a matter of fact, it is possible that the second man being there would tend to increase the liability of an accident by attracting the other man's attention? —Yes, they might enter into a discussion, which would make the risk much greater. 1 think one man is quite enough in an engine-room when they are winding men. 45. Do you consider it practicable to fix by regulation a standard height for stopes? —No. 1 think it is a question which should be left to the Inspector of Mines to decide whether stopes are too high. The Inspector of Mines should have the power to say whether they are too high, and to require them to be timbered. 46. Then you do not think any improvement could be made in the present regulations? —it would be a very drastic matter to compel stopes to be timbered above a height to be fixed l>.\ regulation. 47. In your opinion is it the practice of the mine officials to test the roof, or is it left to the men in the stope I —The men are supposed to test the roof themselves, and the officials test any places of which they have doubts. They point out to the men such places as they consider unsafe. 48. With regard to shot-firing, you heard the evidence given yesterday as to the appointment of shot-firers : what is your opinion on the subject? —We had shot-firers in our mine, but abolished them when we did away with the system of boring. Ido not think that the presence of shot-firers in the mine lessens the danger, because for the twelve months prior to their abolition I had as many notices of accidents on my table as we have in any year now. Ido not think you could get shotfirers any more capable than the men themselves. 49. You consider a miner to be as capable of charging and firing a hole as a shot-firer would be?— Yes. 50. What has been your experience with regard to firing charges by electricity?—lt has been that you have a great many misses, probably more than with fuse, though I believe in electric firing in sinking shafts where the men cannot escape if anything goes wrong; but in dry winzes or rises, where they have ladders to escape by, I prefer the fuse, because I think there is less risk of misfires. Many times 1 have seen seven or eight holes connected up, and probably two or three missed. I have seen the dynamite come up amongst the debris. 51. What is the general cause of those misfires?—ln some cases it may have been the caps, but I really could not sajr. I have been told it was the result of a short circuit. 52. As a general rule, you do not consider electricity surer than the ordinary fuse? —No, 1 would sooner work with fuse, except at the bottom of a shaft where there may be no chance to get up a ladder. Where a man can get up a winze or climb down a rise, or in stopes where he has good opportunity to get away, the fuse is better. 53. What is the usual cause of misfires when fuse is used? —In all cases which I have investigated, with the exception of one, carelessness has been the cause. The exception I refer to was a shipment of defective fuse. In most cases the men are absolutely .sure that they have cleaned the cap out, or they might get a drop of water on it. There is also carelessness in loading. I have seen many cases of that when investigating misholes by drawing the charges to examine them. About ten or twelve years ago we found misholes being caused by defective fuse, but since then we have not been troubled in that way. 54. With regard to misfires, what is the usual procedure?— The first tiling to do is to pull the fuse out. The hole should be tamped with clay. If you get the cap out there is very little danger. The clay is pulled or washed out until you get down to the dynamite, and then you five it again. Providing you get the cap out there is very little danger if you do not hit it a blow. 55. And for drawing the tamping what tool do you use? —I have drawn any amount with a stick, or with the scoop on the scraper. 56. Do you think it is a safe practice to charge a number of holes when it is intended to fire only a few of them ? —No. 57. In your mine do you find th.it bag and paper is used for tamping?—lt has been used, and we have attempted to stop the practice on several occasions. 1 do not think it is used to any extent now. 58. What is your objection to using tamping or material of that kind? —It causes a great deal of dust, and if it does not it will probably fh* about in the air. If it burns it causes a great deal of fumes. 59. With the popper is there any method of stopping the dust from becoming a nuisance? — We have had the popper in use for about twelve months. At first there was great difficulty with the dust, because the poppers were only intended for boring upwards, or for holes at an angle of 40° or 45°. We find that spraying is very effective, and if a, man uses the spray across the mouth of the hole there is no trouble. It is better for a man to got wet than to suffer from the dust. 60. Do you find the sprays are generally used with the ordinary rock-drill? —In a great many cases miners do not use the sprays as much as they should, and we sometimes have to speak to them. 61. Do you think the water-jets are effective in allaying the dust from rock-drills?— Yes, I should say they are. 62. Can you suggest any method of laying the dust which is raised when firing in dry places? — Only the spray.

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63. Are the sprays used for this purpose in the mine you are managing?—l think the majority of miners do use the sprays, but there are some careless men who do not, even though they have the appliances at hand. 64. Mr. Cochrane.] You say that some of the miners do not use the sprays? —That is so. Once or twice a week I have to ask them why they are not using the sprays. 65. Would you be in favour of making the use of the sprays compulsory? —Certainly. 66. Then you told us of one occasion when the safety-catches did not act? —Yes. 67. Was it in a case of actual winding, or when the catches were being tried with a small drop?—lt was in winding rock at a fair rate of speed. The cage went down the shaft. 68. Do you consider the present short drop a sufficient test?—lf they drop more than a short distance they are no good. When you drop a cage it is only a few inches. Our test is up to about 1§ in. If they drop further than that we take the catch off and see what is wrong with the appliance. 69. Do you consider the present test au efficient one?— Yes, 1 think it is a satisfactory one. 70. What is your opinion generally as to the connecting of adjoining mines? —I think it would greatly improve the ventilation. 71. Then, in a case where a vast amount of smoke might come into a smaller mine and deluge it with vitiated air?—l think you would get such an increased supply of air that the amount of smoke would not do any harm. I would be quite prepared to take any additional smoke that might come into our mine from an adjoining one. 72. 1 think you said that the fixing of a standard temperature would be a difficult matter on account of the variation in the weather? —Yes. 73. Is the difficulty not chiefly owing to humidity?—l could not say. 74. I want your opinion as to keeping winzes and rises well ahead of the development-work, so that the stopes shall be well ventilated as they come forward? —That is a point we always try to adopt. The more air we get in, from a financial point of view, the better for everybody. We try to keep the winzes and rises as far ahead as possible. 75. Do you think a provision should be enacted in regard to that? —Well, I do not think so. 76. You would not recommend it? —I think it would be far better to provide a sufficient quantity of air. Sometimes it might be possible to give the men a sufficient quantity of air, and they would not want the winze or rise. 77. Then what is the use of a large current of air if it does not go to the place where it is wanted— if it is short-circuited?—We consider that it does go to the place. 78. By means of the winze? —By mechanical ventilation if it suits us the best. 79. Do you not get better results by having your winzes and rises than by a small fan? —Yes. certainly. 80. Mr. Heed.] As regards the heating of air in the stopes, how is that caused? —It is the heat of tne rocks which heats the air. 81. Is that sometimes greater in some varieties of ore or rock than in others?— Yes. 82. What class of ore creates the greatest heat? —Ore full of mineral. That is my experience. 83. Can the heat in the stopes be reduced? —As you open them up the heat is reduced. 84. When you begin to open up these sulphide bodies is the heat greater? —Yes. 85. And at that time does the best of ventilation that is available make the places cool?—It does not bring it down to the standard that it will finally come to, but it certainly reduces it. We have driven levels that have been 85°. 86. Are }-ou aware that the quantities of air passing through each intake were measured by the Commissioners? —Yes. 87. Will you give them? First, No. 5 level, south crosscut : how much air circulates per man per minute? —325 ft: 88. In the north crosscut? —1,208 ft. 89. No. 4 level, north crosscut? —263 ft. 90. No. 3 level, north crosscut? —1,166 ft. 91. What was the total intake as registered?—47,s6s ft. 92. For how many men?— Eighty-eight. 93. How much does that work out at per man per minute? —540 ft. 94. Does that quantity enable you to cool your stopes? —It brings them down considerably us compared with what they would have been without it. 95. Would you explain to us the phenomena that, notwithstanding that fair volume of air, the temperature taken by us in Keen's and Adams's stopes registered 83°, wet bulb; will you also state whether you consider that such high temperature was caused by the rocks, inadequate ventilation, or sulphides? —In Keen's stope, where the Commission took the temperature, it was hardly a fair thing, because those men should not have been allowed to work at that point. They started there without my knowledge. Within 50 ft. they had a clean open rise to work in. And the point where that temperature was taken was not lit for a man to work in. 96. At the other end of the stope the temperature was 70° : how do you account for the difference in temperature between one end of the stope and the other?--At the cool end the air is coming direct from the main shaft, and there is more air going in there. 97. Where did you wish the men to work I—They1 —They should have started from the rise. 98. How long had the men worked there unknown to you?—l had not been in the stope for several days. 99. Why were they working there? —They stated it was on account of the acid water injuring their pipes. 100. Was there sulphide ore in Adams's stot>e to cause the temperature to be so high—it was 80° and 84°—or was it simply bad ventilation?-—The cause of the heat there is that the intake is higher than the outlet.

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101. Have mining aocidents increased during the last year?—No, I do not think? so; not to my knowledge. 102. How is a six-lxour place determined? —By the Inspector of Mines. 103. Have you known the heat alone in hot places to injure a man —1 do not mean the dust, but the heat alone?—No, I cannot say that 1 have known of it. 104. How high are your stopes generally? — Well, our rule is to keep them between Bft. and 10 ft. ; those are my instructions. At times, however, some of them are higher, perhaps on account of bad ground, or where the ground is good and there is no risk. 105. With your good mechanical ventilation how do you account for the statement of souk , of the witnesses that the Waihi Mine, with natural ventilation, is cooler than your mine? —Well, Mr. Speering was not in a position to tell whether it is better or not; he has not worked much about the place. 106. As regards misfires, what is your opinion as to the man who charges a mishole being .responsible to report it to the incoming shift? —I think the man who fired it should be the man to report it. 107. What is your opinion of the employment of special men to tire shots, and why was that system discontinued in your mine?—lt does not minimize accidents. We discontinued it when we abolished the system of boring. 108. Does the workmen's inspector visit your mine regularly? —Yes, except during, the last couple of months. 109. Have you a book containing the reports by the workmen's inspector?-—Not here. 110. Do they draw your attention to their requirements?— They point out matters which they consider unsafe, and what other changes they consider ought to be made. 111. Have any recent notes been made as to the temperature in stopes? —The Inspector's reports have referred to the temperatures. The last report 1 had was three months ago. 112. Have they made requests for cooler stopes?—Yes, some time ago. 113. Does the Inspector of Mines visit the mine frequently? —Yes, he visits us at least once a quarter, and at intervals when he is called, or when it is necessary for him to make an inspection. Sometimes the workmen's inspector calls him, sometimes I call him, and he also comes when there is an accident. 114. Does he thoroughly inspect the mine and all the arrangements? —He personally supervises the testing of the cages and the ropes, and he usually has the workmen's inspector with him. 115. Does he examine the stopes and ladderways?—At least once a quarter he is through most of the stopes. 116. What is his practice when he observes anything which requires attention —safety precautions, for instance? —If they are not in order he notifies me, and orders me to put them in a proper state of repair. 117. Does he take air-measurements and temperatures periodically? —Yes, be has taken them many times. 118. Is there much gas in your mine? —No. 119. Is it reasonable to suppose that the reason for your not detecting gas in any serious proportion is because you have adequate ventilation? —Yes. 120. Do you consider the ventilation in the Junction Mine adequate? —Yes, it is not bad. We will probably improve upon it as we go along. 121. Mr. Dowgray.] In reply to Mr. Cochrane you said that you were in favour of adjoining mines being connected? —Yes. 122. Even although your mine is equipped with an exhaust fan, would you be in favour of the Waihi Mine being connected with your mine?—lt would mean a big improvement in our mine. 123. How would it affect the Waihi? —I think they would get a lot of cool air, provided it went from our place into theirs, 124. Would not your exhaust fan materially assist them? —The effect of our exhaust fan would be to draw a great deal of noxious gas from the upper levels and assist them in that way. 125. Would you be in favour of a clause being inserted in the Mining Act compelling adjoining mines to effect connections, or would you leave it to the discretion of the Inspector of Mines? — ] am in favour of mines connecting unless there are hard bars of country blocking water so as to prevent it swamping the mines, 126. Would you be in favour of a clause being inserted in the Act compelling connections to be made? —Yes. 127. You said that when you had the system of shot-firers you frequently had notices left on your table in regard to misshots? —Yes. 128. Would that not be one of the reasons that you think there were more then?— There were just as many misholes under the system of shot-firing as there are at the present time, and probably more. There was more dynamite used in those holes than was necessary. 129. But if there were a shot-firer appointed would it not do away with the danger of going back before the statutory time? —My experience is that you cannot stop men from going back; you would want the police to keep them back. 130. The shot-firer would be the police?— But the shot-firer would go back. 131. In connection with the spray being used on the popper, does the spray not have a, tendenoy to choke up the dust at the collar of the hole? —No, especially in upper holes. 132. Do you consider your mine better ventilated with the installation of the exhaust fan than with natural ventilation ?—The exhaust fan brought the temperature down in two or three weeks by s°. 133. Would you be in favour of a clause being inserted in the Act compelling companies to introduce mechanical ventilation where the temperature is high?— Yes, or to supply the air by some means. 134. The temperature of the rocks is reduced by the air? — Yes.

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135. Would you consider that a mine which had an average in eighty-seven places of 79° L<j be adequately ventilated2—Yes, provided that the air was clear; of course, it would be pretty warm. 136. If you had that average in your mine would you consider it satisfactory ? —Yes, if the air was clear. I might say in regard to holing that since we holed into the Extended the temperature in some of our crosscuts has been reduced at least 5° or 6°. 137. And you attribute that to the connection being made? —Yes. 138. Mr. Sometimes when the catches were being tested by the Inspector have they refused to act? —Yes. 139. In regard to firing with the electric battery you said there was just as much risk : did you mean in regard to hangfires?—l have had no experience of hangfires with the electric battery, because if a shot does not explode the man disconnects his machine and makes an examination to see what has happened. 140. Have they exploded afterwards? —Only when the man has reconnected up—there is no risk provided they disconnect the batter}*; but, personally, I have had no experience of hangfires. 141. Do you think the misfires are mostly caused by the unequal resistance of the detonators or faulty manufacture?— Well, 1 cannot say, but I think the faulty connections are the cause of most of the trouble. 142. Will you tell the Commission how much driving and sinking you have done for ventilation purposes alone? —Last year we spent about .£5,000 on drives and winzes for ventilation alone, and £700 for power for fans, and about .£3OO for attendance on those fans—that is, with three men employed all the time. For ventilation alone we drove about 2,000 ft., and winzing and rising accounted for 600 ft 143. How much money would have been saved by the Junction Company if you had been allowed to connect? —Well, thousands of pounds perhaps —at any rate, a very large sum. We worked under bad conditions until we got our ventilation system going. 144. Have you gained a good experience this last six months in connection "with the decreasing of temperatures of rock by a large circulation of air? —Yes. 145. And it has been a demonstration of the cooling off of rock with a big circulation of air? Y egi 146. In regard to Keen's stope, in answer to Mr. Heed as to the temperature being much lower at one end of the stope than at the other, is that not accounted for by the air travelling up a rise before it comes to where those men are working? —No; those men were actually starting a new rise, and the excessive heat: is due to the fact that there is no chance of the air getting in or out. 147. There is a rise up another way, and the biggest proportion of the air goes up that rise without going through the other end? —Yes, that is so. I think that temperature is pretty low in that stope. At the west end it was 70° ami 75°. Had they worked the stope in the proper w-ay I do not think it would have been up more than 2° or 3°. 148. And you do not think it was fit for them to work in? —No, certainly not, up in that place. 149. You say that you do not think it would lit advisable to fix a standard temperature owing to the temperatures varying : is that the only impediment in the way of fixing a standard temperature? —Really, I do not see any reason for doing so if the air is clear. It might be no more injurious at 88° in one place than in another place at, say, 72°. 150. Do you think that a high temperature underground is not exhausting and fatiguing for a man to work in? —Yes, if the air is not clear 151. But even in the event of there being a good current of air, and the temperature being 86° or 90°, would it not be more fatiguing than with a temperature of 70° with the same sort of air ? —Probably it is more fatiguing. 152. In the course of your experience at the Grand Junction Mine, when the temperature was very high, have you not heard complaints in general conversation from the men as to how they felt when working in' those hot places? —-Yes, I have heard men say " It is fearfully hot," and so on. 153. Do yon think it would save confusion between the workers and the companies if there ■were a standard temperature fixed? —No, I do not. If you had a standard temperature in our mine you would probably cut out about 75 per cent, of the mine unless you fixed it high, because at times it is high and at times low. Personally, lam in favour of the question as to whether it is too hot for an eight-hour shift being referred to a Government official. 154. Do you think a decrease of hours is necessary in high temperatures?—l think if the air is bad the shorter hours the better—if it is poisonous or not pure. 155. As regards sanitation, do you think tliere should be proper sanitary appliances?—l think the sanitary appliances that we have installed in our mine are adequate and well attended to. 156. Do you consider mining a healthy occupation? —It is not as healthy as working on the surface, I know. 157. In regard to high stopes, would you be in favour of some provision being made in the Mining Act whereby a man would not be allowed to bore a hole too high in a stope? You say it is not advisable to fix a standard height for stopes. In keeping your stope 9 ft. or 10 ft. high, would not a hole bored 9 ft. from the bords have a tendency to loosen the back so that it would require working down? Would you be in favour of a certain height being fixed for the hole to be bored? That is a matter which depends on the miner's judgment. I would be quite prepared to have the place timbered if in the opinion of the Inspector the hole was too high. There are many cases where the hole must be bored 9 ft. high, and if a man has a good knowledge he will bring that off without any difficulty. 158. But in wide stopes have you not found in your experience that it is not advisable to bore holes 9 ft. ? In ordinary average ground it is not advisable to put holes that height.

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i.59. Do you think that it is lieoeasary to have the ambulance-box, liniment, and stretchers on the different levels handy? —I believe that the best place ior them is the surface, because it generally happens that the iirst man that rushes to them lias his hands very dirty, and by the time they get to the patient they are not fit to handle. 160. But if they were kept in a properly arranged box? —It would require to be properly secured. 161. Do you know the practice in other countries? — J do not know. 162. The Chairman.] What would be the difference in time taken to get them from the foot of the shaft and from the surface?—lt would mean only about five minutes. There are, of course, times when it might mean much longer, owing to the inability to get a cage. 163. Would ten minutes cover the difference in time —that is, assuming that they were kept in some place handy on the surface? —Yes, I think ten minutes would cover it. At times it might be more, but generally from five to ten minutes would be about the difference. 164. Mr. Parry.] You said that the man having , the mishole should be the man to fire it: supposing the man who fired it were going off shift, would he fence the place off till he came on shift again?—No; I would be quite prepared to shut the place down. Under ordinary circumstances a man should five his own hole. 165. The, Chairman.] Supposiiig under present circumstances your mine were connected with the Waihi Mine, would that make any revolutionary changes in the system of ventilation in the Waihi ?—I could not tell you; it is three years since I was in the Waihi Mine. 166. You say you have an exhaust fan : what would be the general effect to both mines? — The advantage to us would be that we would save all this driving. The large current of air would tend to drag the bad air out, and the effect upon us would be that we would have a greater circulation. The effect on the Waihi Mine would be that they would get clear air at about 75°. 167. Would that connection not make a number of your shafts upcasts for the Waihi? —It is possible, but we are prepared to take it the other way, too. Ido not see how all the fumes in the Waihi, or the proportion that would come to us, would do us any great injury. 168. What is your opinion as to the general effect of connection on the intakes and outlets? —The effect would be a greater quantity of air going down our shaft, and a lot of it would go direct through into the Waihi Mine; it would also have a cooling effect owing to the greater quantity. 169. How many connections would you make —one, two, or more? —One on each level. 170. Only one on each level, not two?— Well, if necessary, you could have two. My opinion is that the more connections you have the better. 171. Mr. Dow gray.] The more shafts you have to the surface the better? —Certainly. 172. You heard the reference to the necessity for the engine-driver giving return signals to the braceman : would that be an improvement?—l have not seen such a system working, but I think it would be a good idea as a workable scheme. 173. The men go on to the cage without having a return signal? —Yes. 174. But if it were a workable scheme you think the return signal would be a good thing? — No, I have not gone into the question. Farquhar Stewart sworn and examined. (No. 38.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a mine-manager?— Yes. 2. With how many years' experience? —I have been a manager a little over five years. 3. And before that what mining experience had you had? —Something over twenty years. Before going to the Extended Mine I was for six years a shift boss in the Waihi. 4. How long have you been in your present mine?— Just over five years, as manager all the time. 5. Have you any opinion to offer to the Commission on the question of ventilation, either generally or particularly?—l do not know that I have anything to say in particular on that matter, but I am prepared to answer any question as far as I can. 6. As to sanitation, have you any suggestion to offer as to the improvement of existing conditions? —I do not know that I can suggest any improvement. All reasonable care is at present taken to keep the places clean. 7. What is your opinion in regard to a system of shot-firers : how would it work?—l have had experience with shot-firers, more especially in open cuts and quarries, and there are as many accidents with shot-firers as without them. 8. Have you had any experience of the results of firing by electricity as opposed to fuse? — Yes, I have had a fair experience in the use of both. The electric battery has, of course, certain advantages, but I do not think it would be advisable to lay down a hard-and-fast rule and make it compulsory to fire all shots by electricity. 9. Have you any opinion as to a standard height for stopes, and, if so, how would you fix it? — Well, as far as the mines in Waihi are concerned, I do not know that a hard-and-fast rule in regard to that matter would be workable. In my experience I have found that at times, although a stopo may exceed 8 ft. or even 10 ft. in height, it is better to take it up until you have clean ground. It is better at times to take down baulked ground rather than timber it, though, of course, there are times when it would be safer to timber. 10. Have you any opinion to offer as to fixing a standard temperature for six-hour places?— Well, I do not know that it would be workable if a clause were inserted in the Mining Act fixing a standard. I think our system, which has been in operation here for some time, works fairly well— that is, in the event of the companies and the men not agreeing between themselves, the matter is referred to the Inspector of Mines, and he determines whether it should be a six-hour place. 11. Would you give him statutory authority to determine it?— Yes, I do not see any objection to that,

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12. Have you had any experience in regard to accidents? —Yes, in a general way. 13. What do you find is the commonest cause of accidents? —Well, that is a difficult question to answer, because each accident and its cause must be taken separately. 14. Have you any opinion to offer as to the necessity for an extra man in the engine-room when shifts are being changed?—l do not think it would really be any advantage. In the course of my experience I have found that on some fields, at any rate, the system is to exclude every one but the engine-driver from the engine-room, to prevent his attention being attracted while he is raising or lowering the men. So far as the extra man is concerned I think, in the event of an accident occurring—in my experience 1 have never , known of one —that in all probability the damage would be done before the second man could gain control of the engine. 15. Do you think it would be an advantage to have a system of telephones for communicating between the surface and the different levels? —Yes; that is, provided the telephone system is reliable. 16. Would there be anything to prevent it working satisfactorily in a, mine, as far as you know? —No, I do not think so. 17. Have you known of such a system, being in vogue in wet mines, or under any other conditions which might affect the working of a telephone? —Apart from effective insulation of wire, 1 do not know that there is any objection to the system. 18. Do you know of the existence of a system at all?— The only place in this district that I know where they have the telephone is at the Crown Mines, where I believe they have had considerable trouble with it at times. Ido not know why. 1 did hear that it was affected by the electric currents in the air. In Waihi we rely on the speaking-tube, which has been found fairly effective on the whole. 19. Mr. Reed.] Will you please tell us of the holing between the Extended and the Grand Junction Mines as regards ventilation?— The holing has resulted in a decided improvement. 20. To which mine? —To the Extended, I know; and 1 am also satisfied it has improved the Junction. 21. Have you any idea of the amount of air passing through that holing on the 28th of this month, when the measurements were taken in the Grand Junction by the Commissioners and the Inspector of Mines? —I believe there was something like 11,550 ft. 22. Does your mine get the benefit of that holing? —Yes. 23.- Is the air pure?— Comparatively good, pure air. 24. Fit to breathe and work in ? —Yes. 25. AVhat would be the result of holing between the Waihi and the Grand Junction Mines?—l think it would be beneficial to both mines. 26. Do you think that a powerful fan running constantly at the Grand Junction would have the effect of drawing the air from the Waihi Mine? —It might draw a small proportion. Ido not know that it would have an appreciable effect. 27. If it did not draw an appreciable amount what benefit would that be to the Junction?— The connection would allow a greater amount of ventilation. 28. Yes, but the fan is the power at the Junction. If there were no appreciable drag at that connection what would be the benefit to the Junction ? —There is no doubt that the fan would draw a proportion of the air, but, not knowing its capacity, I cannot say how much. 29. Would the tendency be for the air to follow the greatest drag, either artificial or natural ventilation ?—Yes. 30. Would it only go into the Waihi Mine when the drag on the air was greater in the Waihi Mine than at the Junction ?—Yes, of course, it would follow the greater drag. 31. Is it possible that upon certain good days for natural ventilation the air would travel from the Junction to the Waihi, and upon bad days the drag of the air would reverse it, so that it might be a matter of see-saw between the two mines?—l do not think the atmospheric conditions would be sufficient to reverse the current of air. 32. Which way do you think the air would travel?—l am not sufficiently acquainted with the circulation in either mine to say. 33. So that really it might be a doubtful benefit? —I do not think so, because so long as the air circulates one way or the other it does not matter —the direction is not of importance—the benefits would still accrue. 34. But if the air in the Waihi were vitiated, would not that vitiation affect the pure air in the Junction?—lf the air were comparatively small in volume, of course, it would; but with the large volumes circulating in the two mines I do not think it would injure either mine. 35. How many hours do the men work in your Mine? —Six. 36. It is somewhat wet: do the men complain?—No, only at various times they have said it was hot. 37. Do they work fairly hard in saturated air? —Yes. 38. What sort of health do they have?— Good health, as far as I know. 39. How long have they been working in high temperatures?— Probably about six weeks. Of course, some of them have been working in other portions of the mine from four to six months. 40. Notwithstanding that they are working under wet and hot conditions their health is good, and they do good work for their employers ? —Yes. 41. Would you say that heat alone does not injure a man's health? —I do not think that heat in itself really affects a man's health to any great extent. Of course, we know that a cooler atmosphere is more pleasant. 42. In hot places do the men take rests and work according to the conditions? —Yes. 43. Would those rests counterbalance to a certain degree any inconvenience or injury that might result from the heat? —Yes, it would have that tendency,

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44. Mr. Dowgray.] Seeing that you have gained some benefit from the connection of the- 1 two mines, would you .be in favour of a provision being inserted in the Act to compel companies to connect adjoining mines?— Yes, I think so, but with certain conditions. It should be left to the Mines Department, the Inspecting Engineer, or the Inspector of Mines to decide whether such connection was likely to be beneficial or otherwise. 45. What proviso would you suggest?—l have not gone into the matter. The requirements would vary with the local conditions. But if a clause were put in the Act giving the Mines Department authority to insist upon connections being made where they were found necessary or advisable it would be a good thing. 46. The Chairman.] Supposing it was likely to be injurious to one of the mines?— Well, the company would have the power to object to the connection. 47. But you could not tell till the connection was made?— You could form an opinion by taking the local conditions into consideration. You can tell what the effect would be of a proposed connection between any two mines. 48. With any degree of certainty? —It might not be theoretically correct, but it would be sufficiently correct for practical purposes. 49. Mr. Dowr/ray.] Would you be in favour of some proviso permitting the companies to refrain from connecting in case, say, of a threatened inrush of water?— That would have to be taken into consideration. 50. I understood you to say, in reply to Mr. Reed, that if the number of openings in a mine were increased the volume of air would be increased, so that necessarily both mines would benefit? —By increasing the number of openings you increase the capacity of the inlets. 51. So that, if there were no danger from an inflow of water, it would be beneficial to both mines? —Yes, I think so, almost invariably. 52. Have you had any difficulty in getting men to work in your mine on account of the heat? —I may have had difficulty at times to get suitable men for special work, but not otherwise. 53. Mr. Cochrane.] In regard to connections between mines, would you have that done com-, pulsorily? In the event of it being found that a connection had an injurious effect, would you be in favour of the Inspector or the Inspecting Engineei having the power to close the connection?; —Certainly. 54. The Chairman.] Would compensation meet the case? —Either the power to close the connection or to give adequate compensation. T think if the Mines Department had that power it would be a good thing in many cases. 55. Mr. Parry.] Is it not a fact that most of the work done in your mine at No. 5 level has been done on six-hour shifts? —No, I do not know that we have done more than 50 per cent, on six-hour shifts. 56. How much sinking have you done on six-hour shifts? —Less than half of the present lift. I think that down to 80 ft. or thereabouts we had it practically dry. ■ 57. But on account of the heat: there are other things besides water which prevented you from working eight-hour shifts?—Of course. On the south-east crosscut and on the two reefs the bulk of the work was done on six-hour shifts. 58. Could you tell us how many changes of men you have had working on this last sinking? —I think we have had three. The present is the third party. That has not been due to the heat or the water. When the water became too heavy we had to stop till we obtained the pump. 59. And you have had practically three changes in the last lift? —Yes, chiefly due to stoppages in the sinking. 60. How many changes have you had in the individual members of the party?— Comparatively few. 61. But you have had changes? —I do not know. In the first party that went on I do not think there were any changes—in fact, I do not know that there were any actual changes in any of the parties. 62. Do you think that working in hot places has an ill effect upon a man's constitution? — It would depend upon the degree of heat and surrounding conditions. I do not know that the actual heat in a place has any great effect. 63. Has it any effect at all? —Of course, we all know that heat has an effect, 64. Do you think the temperature on the surface is more healthy than a corresponding temperature below ? —Usually it is. 65. It is more healthy to work on the surface?— Yes, there is a greater quantity of air travelling. 66. You said that you get good work done in the six-hour places in your mine : do you think you would get any more if you were working three shifts of eight hours than four shifts of six hours?—l do not know that it would make any appreciable difference as long as the same number of men were employed. 67. As a, rule, does a man stick to his face more solidly when working a six-hour shift than if he were working an eight-hour shift? —I have not found any great difference. 68. You said that the men were in good health : do you know if the men have been sounded by a doctor who has stated that they are not in good health ?—No, I do not know. 69. And you do not think it is necessary to fix a standard for a six-hour place?—No, I do not think it would be workable if j'ou fixed a hard-and-fast temperature. The surrounding conditions must be taken into consideration. For instance, the conditions in one place with a temperature of 85° may be better than those in another place with a temperature of 80°. It depends upon the amount of air circulating and the quality.

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70. What temperature do you consider injurious to a man?— That is a question T could hardly answer. 71. Do you think a temperature of 88° saturated in that shaft is too high to work eight hours? — Yes. 72. As regards the height of stopes, you think it would not be wise to fix a standard? —I do not think it would be altogether workable. As I said before, at times it is better to work down baulked ground and get a sound reef than it would be to work under that baulked ground, with the stope 7 ft. high. * 73. What is the baulked ground due to?—To the firing of charges too high, or sometimes the nature of the ground. 74. Have you ever had any trouble with the workers in connection with hot places?—l do not think so; I cannot recall an instance. 75. Have the men asked you for a six-hour shift, or have you voluntarily settled which were six-hour places?— When we went on with the south-east crosscut we arranged between ourselves that it should be a six-hour place. 76. Have you had any practical experience of working in hot places? —1 have had some experience; as a matter of fact, I put in a good deal of my time in the shaft in the Extended. Ido not know that I have been working in any exceptionally hot places recently. Before coming to New Zealand I worked in hot places. 77. As a miner? —Yes. 78. What were the temperatures?—l could not recall them now; it is a good many years ago. 79. Did it ever have an effect on you?— Not as far as I know. 80. Did you feel as strong and fit after finishing your work in a hot place as in a cool place? ■ —I felt tired, I suppose. 81. When you decided on making them six-hour places was it after taking a sample of the air and analysing it? —No, we simply judged the general conditions from my knowledge of the place. 82. Mr. Heed.] In reply to Mr. Parry you said that 88° was too high a temperature for an eight-hour place: do you mean that to apply to a shaft or to a dry stope?—Under present conditions, to the sinking of the shaft. 83. At what depth is that?—l,loo ft. from the surface. 84. Do the men wear oilskins? —No, there is no overhead water. 85. Would you call it a wet shaft?— Yes. 86. So you would not apply that 88° wet bulb to a dry stope ?—No, not necessarily. 87. You only referred to the conditions in that particular shaft? —Yes. 88. Mr. Dowgray.] When deciding on a wet place do you consider whether it is wet overhead or underfoot?— Well, it may be both. 89. Would it become a wet place if it were only wet underfoot?—lt depends on the depth of the water. 90. What depth of water would be required to make it a wet place ? Two or three inches — would that be a wet place?—lf a man were simply getting his feet wet that would not be a wet place. 91. What depth would the water have to be? —I could not fix any depth. , 92. How would you decide a wet place if it were only wet underfoot? —1 would leave it to the Inspector. In the agreement under which we have been working with the miners' union for some years past there is a clause to the effect that, in the event of the company and the men not agreeing as to what constitutes a wet place, then the Inspector shall decide, but there is no statutory obligation on the Inspector to deal with the matter. 93. In this particular shaft the water is not dripping down on the men from overhead? — There are only a few drops falling. 94. If it were in a drive would you consider it a wet place?— Not with the same amount of water. 95. So, then, the heat is taken into consideration too?—Of course, with the amount of water, apart from the heat, it would be a six-hour place. AVith the quantity of water coming from close to the bottom of the shaft at times the men may be working in 3 ft. of water. 96. And they work in 3ft. of water? —Yes, on certain work, such as getting down to connect the fuses, as you do with the electric battery. They usually connect up and stop the pump to allow a.certain amount of water to accumulate before firing. 97. You can fire with fuse? —No, we fire with electric battery. 98. In the event of the Inspector deciding that the men should use oilers, would you consider it a wet place?—lf the Inspector said so, yes; but it does not necessarily follow that because the men wear oilers it is a six-hour place. 99. If the Inspector of Mines said it was necessary? —I should not bring the question of oilers into the matter at all. It would be decided irrespective of whether the men were wearing oilers or not. A man could wear an oiler or not as he liked. 100. Mr. Parry.] In connection with your shaft in operation now, if it were practically dry —-say, only damp—and the temperature was 88°, would you think it a six-hour place?— Yes. I would give that as a six-hour place without the water —that is, if the air contained a large percentage of moisture, as it probably would do. 101. In the event of another place having the same temperature—BB° saturated —and not wet, what would you think then? —In all probability I would give them a six-hour place.

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Waihi Coukthouse. —30tb August, 1911. Matthew Paul sworn and examined. (No. 39.) 1. The Chairman .] What is your name? —Matthew Paul. 2. You are the Inspector of Mines for the district? —Yes, for the Hauraki Mining District. 3. How long have you been in your present position?— Three years and a half. 4. What certificates do you hold?—A first-class mine-manager's certificate, by examination. 5. And what experience have you had of mining generally?— About thirty-two years. 6. And how long as a mine-manager? —About fourteen years. 7. Where? —In the Hauraki Mining District, at Thames and Waitekauri. 8. Have you any general observations to make as to matters that have come under your notice in regard to your duties or into which the Commission is inquiring—as to ventilation, for instance? —I"do not know that 1 have anything particular to say except under examination. 9. Have you anything to mention in regard to sanitation in the mines under your supervision, or generally as to what you consider the most satisfactory method of carrying out sanitary arrangements?—l think there could be some little improvement in the sanitary arrangements. 10. In what direction? —Well, for one thing, I think the pans should be emptied oftener ; and, for another, they ought to be kept away from the air-currents and partitioned off so that the smell cannot get into the air-currents. I think everything else is provided for. 11. You become acquainted with the conditions surrounding every accident in your district : have you any suggestions or recommendations to make to the Commission for the purpose of minimizing or preventing accidents?— Well, accidents resulting from blasting are the most frequent, and in some cases they are caused by charging the holes and only firing the cut. I think that is a dangerous practice. Ido not think any holes should be charged other than those i< is intended to fire. 12. Would you suggest that that should be made compulsory 1- -I would. 13. As to the height of stopes, what is your opinion as to the necessity for restricting or limiting them ? —I consider 8 ft. is high enough to work in a stope. 14. How would you bring about a uniform height of 8 ft. : would you limit the shooting upwards?— Yes, and I would add " unless the ground was dangerous and had to be pulled down.' , I think the stopes should not exceed 8 ft. unless there is some good reason. 15. Would that in any way hamper the working of the lodes?— No. 16. Now, have you had any experience of electrical firing as against fuse firing? —Yes, i have had a good deal of experience of electrical firing, and it has not been altogether satisfactory. 17. And have you known hangtires when electricity was used —a charge to hang for a time and then explode?—No, I have known them to miss, but not to hang. 18. Have you any suggestions to offer with regard to the dust question?— Yes. 1 think that in drilling the men should be compelled to use water. 19. And would you go the length of providing that if there were machines with which water could not be used their use should be prohibited? —Yes. 20. What is your opinion as to the likelihood of an accident happening through only having one man in the engine-room?—I have never known of an accident occurring through an enginedriver taking ill. A man on a winding-engine does not like to be interfered with, and if there were a second man there, and he were offering his opinion as to how tilings should be done, his presence would probably lead to accidents rather than prevent them. 21. In regard to the custom which exists in the district of leaving it to the Inspector to decide a hot or six-hour place, have you any opinion to offer as to whether that should lie made compulsory, or any recommendation to make in regard to devising a scheme by which a six-hour place could be determined under certain conditions.' —There are so many conditions which must be taken into consideration when fixing a six-hour place that it would be a hard matter to lay down a standard. A. man really requires to know all the conditions in each ease. 22. Do you decide, or have you been called upon to decide, a six-hour place?— Yes. 23. Do you know of any objection to giving you the right by statute to determine a six-hour place, and to make your decision enforceable? —No. 24. Do you think that a standard of temperature alone would be more satisfactory than leaving it to the Inspector, with statutory powers to determine and enforce a six-hour place?— I do not think a standard could be made to apply generally. 'I here are many other conditions besides heat which it would be necessary to take into consideration when deciding six-hour places. 25. So that you consider a statutory authority given to the Inspector would be more satisfactory?— Yes, than if there were a standard. 26. Mr. Eeed.] Will you kindly explain the method of your inspection : do you notify the management that you propose to inspect their property? —No. 27. Do you keep the matter quite private?—l have a considerable amount of other work to do, and sometimes I do not know myself till the morning that I will be able to inspect that day. 28. Do you examine the books? —Occasionally I examine the mine-manager's book, and generally the engine-driver's. 29. And the workmen's inspector's report-book?—No, 1 have never seen a book containing workmen's inspector's reports. 1 have their reports, but they are filed. 30. Do you inspect the mine and surface arrangements? —Yes. 31. Thoroughly?— Yes. 32. For what purpose? —To see that everything is safe, and that the Act is complied with. 33. If you observe defects what do you do?— 1 at once inform the manager. 34. And if he does not comply with your requirements what do you do then?—lt depends upon the nature of the defect. If, for instance, I inform the manager that I consider a certain stope is dangerous it does not follow that he need stop it. He can appeal to the Warden against my decision, and in the meantime I have no authority over that stope.

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35. Do you think the tribunal composed of the Warden and two assessors is satisfactory? — Personally, 1 would just as soon the matter came before the Warden alone. 36. Do you find the ventilation of the mines in the Waihi district adequate or inadequate.' — I have found it adequate, with a few exceptions, and those exceptions were in the Waihi Mine before they introduced the blower —in the Reptile crosscut, No. 10 level, and the Scorpion crosscut, No. '/level. 37. Since you became Inspector has the ventilation improved?— Yes. 38. By what means has it been improved?—B3' the introduction of mechanical ventilation and more connections with winzes and rises. 39. In connection with your reply to the Chairman's question as to the height of stopes, will you make it clear if you mean 8 ft. high above the sollar-boards I —l meant 8 ft. from the bottom of the stopes or solid ground. 40. Do you consider it safe to charge all the holes in a face when only a portion are to be fired at one time?— No. 41. Why?— Because we have had men injured through that being done. On the 17th April a man named Franklin had his arm blown off as the result of that practice. 42. You have submitted to the Commission tables showing temperatures and results of analyses of mine-air, also quantities of mine-air : are these correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?— They are. 43. Are the air samples and temperatures taken generally in doubtful places?— Yes, I have always taken them in doubtful places. 44. What do you do with the mine-air when you have taken samples? —Send them to the Dominion Analyst at Wellington to be tested. 45. Can you inform the Commission of the shade temperature at the Waihi Mine when we visited it in your company on the 21st August? —Wet bulb, 45°; dry bulb, 54°. 46. And on the 25th what did the wet and dry bulbs register outside in the shade? —49° and 50°. 47. What were the differences on those days?— 9° on the 21st, and 1° on the 25th. 48. Under the temperature conditions on the 25th was the outside air saturated to within j Y eg . 49. Do you consider the extreme fluctuation to be an important argument against the introduction of a standard temperature in mines? —Yes, I think it would, because the air would not dry in going into the mine; it would be delivered saturated. 50. So that there were 8° difference in saturation on those days?— Yes. 51. When in doubt as to the quality of mine-air what is your practice?—l take a sample and have it tested hy the Dominion Analyst in Wellington. 52. How do you account for the fact that the Commission observed drier temperatures in the stopes in the Grand Junction Mine than in the W r aihi Mine, notwithstanding that the former mine has mechanical ventilation, while the Waihi has natural ventilation? —It is the result of the natural heat of the country and the mineral in the reef. 53. So that the temperature of a stope would be affected by the quantity of mineral in it? — Yes. 54. Might that make one end of a stope hot and the other end cool? —I have never tried it that way. 55. Have minor accidents at Waihi increased lately?—l should say they had. 56. Do you think they have increased since the Gold-miners' Relief Fund came into operation? —Certainly; I had no data regarding the minor accidents prior to then, but it seems to me that they have increased. 57. Do you think they have increased? —I think so. I have never noticed so many men previously going about with their hands tied up, for instance. 58. To what do you attribute that?—l really could not say. 59. What is the highest percentage by volume of carbon-monoxide which lias been found in the Waihi Mine, even under the most unfavourable conditions? —00025. 60. Is that the most you have ever ascertained under the most unfavourable conditions in the Waihi Mine?— Yes. 61. What is the maximum percentage of carbon-monoxide which is injurious to a man?— 0-01 to 0-02. 62. Whose authority have you for that proportion? —Dr. Haldane's. 63. What does he say on the point?—He says that the symptoms are never noticeable with less than o'o2 per cent. G4. As regards carbon-dioxide, what is the maximum that you have found in the Waihi Mine under the most unfavourable conditions?— No. 1 sample from the face of No. 11 level, which gave 037 per cent. 65. Now, what is the standard fixed by the British Royal Commission as the .maximum percentage of that gas? —Not to exceed 125 per cent. 66. What is the lowest percentage of oxygen found by analysis in any of these mines?— 203 per cent. 67. What is the standard fixed by the British Royal Commission for oxygen in mine-air?— 19 per cent. 68. Now, in connection with these gases, have the worst samples procurable been taken by you and found well within the British standard?— Yes. 69. Did you hear the witnesses say yesterday that there was little or no gas to be found in the mines here? —I did. 70. Now, how is gas produced in a mine—say CO 2 , black-damp?— From the country rock, from the mineral, from lights, and from the breathing of men and horses.

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71. And if you found no gas what would you attribute that to'/-—To the adequate ventilation. 72. In your experience, what advantage would be gained by the installation of a large exhaust fan at the Waihi Mine? —It would increase the velocity of the air-current, and would reduce the temperature of the air in the mine to a greater or less extent according to the outside conditions. It would increase the oxygen in the mine, which would vary according to the distance from the intake shaft and outside conditions. 73. The benefits would be that the temperature would be reduced and the oxygen increased? —Yes. 74. How is the Waihi Mine ventilated? —By natural ventilation, with the exceptions I have referred to —the crosscuts in Nos. 9 and 10 levels. 75. How many faces are supplied by natural ventilation? —The whole of the faces except those two. 76. Which are the upcast shafts and which the downcasts? —Nos. 5, 2, and 3 are upcast shafts, and Nos. 4 and 6 are downcasts. 77. Are any means taken to divert the air so as to supply an adequate amount required by the Act into the different working-faces?—lhere are brattices put in, and also doors. 78. Are these efficient? —I think they could be improved. 79. Have you had any complaints about the brattices being removed or torn down? —I have on several occasions instructed the manager to put up brattices for the purpose of sending the air into the stopes. Afterwards I was told b}~ him that the men had torn them down. 80. What would you suggest to obviate this difficulty?—l would suggest that the doors be fixed. 81. Does the law permit you to order doors if, as you state, the ventilation is adequate? — Well, it is to force the air up into the stopes. That is why I would order the doors to be fixed up. 82. In your opinion, would it be practicable to install a proper system of mechanical ventilation in the Waihi Mine?—lt would be impracticable with the present shafts. ' 83. Is the temperature highest at the lowest levels?— Yes, usually. 84. Will the temperature increase with depth in the Waihi Mine in connection with any future operations?—l think it will. 85. Would mining at a certain depth in that mine be practically impossible owing to the heat of the rocks ?—I could not say that. 86. Have you used the hygrometer and anemometer regularly for temperature and aircurrents ?—Yes. 87. Do you find the temperature in the faces, particularly at the lower levels, decrease as the work of opening up proceeds? —Yes, as soon as they get the winzes through there is a gradual decrease in the temperature. 88. Have you had many complaints about hot places, requiring six-hour shifts?- —Yes. 89. What do you do upon receipt of those complaints?—l generally go and see the places and judge the conditions of them myself, and if I consider the conditions are unfit for working eight hours in I give it as a six-hour place. 90. In judging those conditions what do you consider —the presence of air and the absence of gas?— Yes. 91. The changeabilitj- of the outside temperature? —I never take the temperature altogether into consideration, but rather the quality and quantity of the air and the position of the workingface. In rises where a man is working over his head all day long, if there is not sufficient air I declare that a six-hour place, and similarly with a winze. 92. So really your standard is what you consider a trying place, and whether it is really harmful to the man to work long in : you consider every feature, and not solely the thermometer ? —That is so. I have not always taken the temperature. 93. Are you conversant with the mining regulations of Australian mines with regard to a fixed temperature?— Yes; I could quote them if you wished. 94. Are those regulations applicable to New Zealand mines? —I do not think they are, because we have so much humidity in the atmosphere. 95. Would recent thermal action in volcanic country have any bearing upon the subject?— It seems to have at Waihi, because the rocks are much warmer here than at Karangahake. 96. Are you aware of the reason for the opinion of the recent British Royal Commission?— Yes. 97. Was it favourable to a fixed standard? —No, unfavourable, because thejr considered the men readily adapted themselves to the circumstances. 98. In New Zealand do you think they readily adapt themselves to the circumstances by resting? —I could not say that. I do not know that they get any great benefit from six-hour places. 99. Now, as regards sanitation, are you acquainted with the system in the Waihi Mine?— I am. 100. How often do you consider the pans should be emptied?— Once every twenty-four hours. 101. Have you anything to suggest to prevent the odour from finding its way into the aircurrent? —I would suggest that the place should be partitioned off, and a door put on to keep the odour from finding its way into the air-current; also that disinfectants be used. 102. Where would you put the door? —In the crosscut. 103. As to bath-houses, do you consider baths necessary?—l do. 104. Would you recommend that their use should be made compulsory on the men?-—Yes. 105. .Suppose a man refused to wash himself? —Of course, you can take a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. 106. Supposing the men would not use the baths, would it not be hard on a small company to have to provide them if they were not used?— Well, the Mining Act says that a company must provide accommodation for the men to dry their clothes, and the extra cost would not be much more.

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107. As regards showers, how many men per shower do you think would be reasonable?— About eight, I think. 108. Would you recommend warm showers or cold? —Warm. 109. Have you any other suggestions to offer in regard to bathing-accommodation?—No, J think I have said all that is necessary. • Hot water and bathing-accommodation ought to be provided. 110. Have you ever known the men to wash their working-clothes in the hand-basins?— Yes, at the Waihi Mine. 111. Do you consider this practice should be stopped?—l do think so, because at the time there were a number of men suffering from boils, and 1 think it is liable to spread the contagion to wash clothes and faces in the same basin. 112. If hot water were provided would more men use the baths? —Yes, I think so. 113. In your visits of inspection how do you find the stopes with regard to height?— They vary. 114. Do you find them generally too high? —Yes, too high for the safety of the men. 115. Would you like to have statutory power to enforce greater safety?—l would like to have the power to stop a stope when I considered it unsafe. 116. Have you ever drawn the mine-manager's attention to the danger of high stopes?— Yes, many times. 117. Does the Mining Act give you power to stop a stope if you consider it dangerous? — No, the manager has an appeal against my decision. He can appeal to the Warden. 118. What happens then? —The company gets all the expert evidence, and I have to depend on the miner, who has his bread-and-butter to think of, and consequently is afraid to side with me. 119. Would you recommend that section 261 of the Mining Act should be amended so as to cover high stopes and to prevent them being driven to such a height as would, in your opinion, lender- them dangerous? — I would. 120. Have you ever known stopes to be taken out on timber after reaching a height of 30 ft. or over?— Yes. When I came into this district some three years and a half ago some of the stopes were -in a very bad condition as to height. Since then the company has filled them in, and the stopes are consolidated, and are taken out on timber. 121. Did you have to use your power to get them so taken out? —Yes, I insisted upon it. 122. Do you consider the present system of blocking out with square sets safe for the miners? —Yes, it is a safe and fair system. 123. Did you hear Mr. Gilmour's evidence regarding the quantity of air registered by him in the Waihi Mine? —I did. 124. He stated that 75,836 cubic feet were circulating to the best of his knowledge and belief : have you any reason to doubt that statement? —No. 125. Do you believe it to be a fair and reasonable statement to the best of your knowledge? —I should say it was a true statement, and a fair one. 126. Do you regard the existing regulations in connection with the ventilation of metalmines satisfactory?—l do. 127. Do you find them workable and applicable to these mines? —I have never had any trouble in. regard to them. Wherever there was any difficulty I have called the attention of the management to it. 128. Do you find any difficulty in administering the regulations? —None. 129. Have you ever heard any of the other Inspectors—Mr. Coutts or Mr. Bennie —find fault with the regulations?— No. 130. At the conference of Inspectors held in Waihi under the chairmanship of the Minister of Mines, two years ago last June, were there many Inspectors present?—l think they were all here but one. 131. What was the purpose of that conference? —To endeavour to better the conditions as regards ventilation, safety, and other matters pertaining to mining. 132. Were many of the recommendations of the conference subsequently put on the statutebook? —I do not think they were —not many. 133. Now, with regard to stopes, is it the usual practice throughout the Waihi Mine to keep the passes full of quartz? —Yes, where practicable, they keep the passes full of quartz to avoid accidents, because in the past there was a large number of serious accidents resulting from men falling down these passes. It also enables them to regulate the air-current. When the passes are full the air comes right up and travels across it. 134. How have you found the ladderways up %o the stopes during your visits of inspection?— Sometimes I have found the rungs knocked out, the result of throwing down tools. 135. Can you suggest a,ny means for preventing these ladders being destroyed?— Well, 1 reckon that where the passes are vertical a windlass ought to be fixed on top, or a shoot for sending the tools down to the level. 136. Are you of opinion that shift bosses or managers should examine the backs of stopes on their visits of inspection?— Yes. 137. Have you heard complaints about lifting the heavy timber used in these stopes from the chamber on to the trollies?— Frequently. 138. Can you suggest any other method? —I think, if there were tackle in the chambers, they could get the timber on to the trollies easier than by rolling it up as they do now. 139. Do you know the system they have in the Extended Mine, where they tilt the timber out at the bottom level?—No, I do not know it. 140. Would you recommend that a pulley be installed?— Yes, something to assist the men to lift it.

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141. Have you had any experience of electric firing? —Yes; it is not so satisfactory, and since I became Inspector 1 have had many complaints about the unsatisfactory material. It could not be traced exactly to the fuse, but on one occasion I traced it to a defective cable. Notbeing well versed in this matter I sent for the Inspector of Explosives to obtain his opinion to .see if he could account for the misholes. We overhauled the cable and caps. We took the cable to the surface, and found it was defective. A new cable supplied would only put off a given number of holes, and the Inspector of Explosives gave the men a lesson on joining the wires. He considered there was some fault in connecting up. The men did not take enough care to see that the joint was free from dirt. After that I did not receive so many complaints, but there is only a certain number of holes upon which they can depend to go off. 142. Has electric firing proved satisfactory or unsatisfactory?— Well, it is satisfactory for shafts, because you cannot use fuse, and that is about the only place where I would use it. 143. Are you in favour of shot-firers being appointed?—l think, if shot-firers were appointed, there would be complications. My experience is that a man who bores a hole likes to charge and fire it himself. I do not think that the appointment of shot-firers would please the men. If the hole did not bring down its burden they would consider it was the fault of the shot-firer. 144. How many holes do you consider it safe to spit with fuse? —Not more than six. 145. Have you any knowledge of accidents having been caused by spitting more than that number? —Yes: since I came into this district there have been several such accidents —some fatal, and others serious. 146. In the. event of a misfire should the miner charging , the hole be the person to report the matter, and either remove or fire the blast?—l think the man who misses the hole should be the man to return and fire it. I will tell you why : the man who charges the hole or holes knows the position of the face when he left it, as well as the directions of the various holes, whereas if another man comes to it he may get on to the gelignite unawares. 147. If that had been done the recent fatality in the Junction Mine would have been avoided? —Yes, I think that man's life would have been spared. 148. And you think the man who blasted the hole would be better able to find its position, and to know whether it had gone off or not, than a stranger from another shift? —I am sure of it. 149. Now, as regards engine-drivers, are you in favour of a second man being at the engine when men are being raised and lowered? —I have never known of an accident happening through the engine-driver being sick or fainting. My experience has been that they will not stand any interference one with another, and it seems to me that if there were two drivers there it would cause accidents rather than prevent them. 150. Do you consider engine-drivers should be medically examined once a year as to eyesight and liability to fits? —Yes, I think it is necessary. 151. You think they should be examined by a doctor, and have a certificate, to be indorsed every twelve months? —A qualified medical man should test their eyesight and see that their hearts are strong, and that they were generally in good health. 152. When more than one hole is fired, and less reports are heard than the number charged, what precautions would you take to avoid accidents? —I consider that the man who charged and fired them ought to go down and make a careful examination to find out which hole has missed. 153. Now, as to machinery and cages, do you inspect the safety-catches and overwindingliooks and see if they are kept in good order?—l have a test made every quarter in my presence of all machinery under my charge, and I see the catches, grippers, and overwinding gear thoroughly tested. 154. Are all these tests made under working-conditions?— The cage is not full of quartz, but otherwise the test is made under working-conditions. 155. Have you known any grippers fail during your tests?— Yes, when I came into the district first. At that time it was the practice for the men to go round—say, at dinner-time—and examine the gear. But the grippers failed to act sometimes, and I notified the management that for the future I wished the catches tested once a week, and an entry made in the book as to their condition. Since then Ido not think I have had any failures. 156. As regards accidents, do you consider the contract system the chief cause of a great number?—l do not think so. A man ought to take as much care of himself when working under tliat system as if he were on wages. 157. Are the majority of men working on contract?— Yes. 158. As regards signals, what is your opinion of the practice of allowing any man employed to give the signals?—l would not allow a man other than the one appointed for the purpose to do so, except in case of accident. 159. What-is your opinion in regard to a uniform code of signals in gold-mines?—A uniform code should be adopted. 160. Do you know the Waihi ward code of signals?— Yes, I know them. 161. Is that a system which you would recommend? —Yes, down to a certain depth — say, 1,000 ft. 162. Was that code unanimously recommended by the conference of Inspectors of Mines? — Yes. I consider it a good code, because it is so satisfactory for changing from one level to another. Supposing you are going to No. 9 level, the number of the level must always be signalled first, and the signal is not so easily misunderstood. 163. Has that ward system worked satisfactorily?— Yes. 164. Is more winding done at Waihi than in any other mine in New Zealand? —Yes, except the coal-mines. 165. Therefore you consider the ward system has had a very adequate test? —Yes. 166. As regards the workmen's inspections, is such inspection of considerable assistance to you?—Well, I rather like the workmen's inspector to go round with me,

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167. Do they carry out a very efficient inspection?— Yes. 168. Do the}- record correctly their opinions, and communicate same to the management? —1 believe they do. 169. As regards winding-ropes, would you approve of the use of a spliced winding-rope?— No. 170. Why?— Because I do not think it should be allowed. 171. As regards sinking shafts, and penthouses, would you recommend that the provision of penthouses be made compulsory where cages are working above men—that is, penthouses of stone, timber, or other material?—l would. 172. Do you regard the night shift as more dangerous than the day shift: are accidents more liable to happen then ? —Well, the records do not show that more serious accidents happen during the night shift. 173. Have you prepared a statement of verdicts of Coroners' inquests on mining fatalities, with the juries' riders?—l have. [Statement produced. Exhibit 10.] 174. The Chairman .] Where is the information taken from?— From my own records. 175. What period does this statement cover? —The period since 1909. 176. From whom did you obtain that data? —From the Coroner. 177. Based upon that statement have you evidence to show that the night shift does not pioduce more accidents than the day shift? —As far as I can remember, as many fatal accidents occur on the afternoon shift as on the night shift. 178. Mr. Beed.] Were you present at the meeting of the Australasian Institute of Mining Engineers held recently in Waihi ?—I was. 179. When I read a paper on the ventilation of mines?— Yes. 180. Do you remember if I recommended or condemned the fixing of a statutory standard?— Condemned it. 181. Did a discussion follow the reading of that paper? —Yes, a short one. 182. Was any objection raised to my condemnation of a fixed standard? —I did not hear any. 183. Mr. Cochrane.] As to blasting with nitro-glycerine explosives, are you satisfied with the present law?— Yes, I think it is fairly definite as it stands at present. 184. With that one modification—that the man who charges a hole should be the man to go in ? —Yes. 185. Have you anything to say as to copper prickers?— There is scarcely any other explosive used but nitro-glycerine compounds, and the Act forbids you to use a copper pricker. 186. You have measured the air in the various main intakes of the mine? —Yes. 187. You heard Mr. Gilmour's evidence? —Yes. 188. As to No. 4, can you tell me what you make the current as you found it at No. 4 shaft at the level? —No. 189. Did you hear Mr. Gilmour state that it was 30,000 cubic feet? —I heard him mention the amount, but I cannot remember what it was. 190. Are you in a position to give an}' corroborative evidence in regard to that? —No; but still I would not doubt his figures. 191. Would you be able to furnish a statement showing how many miners are supplied by each separate current?—No, lam not. I have never measured the air in the Waihi Mine except when I have been doubtful as to the quantity. 192. And did you on those occasions ascertain the number of men that current had to supply?—No, not in the main levels. The measurements T took in the levels were just to show me what air was going through. 193. Taking the mines in this district, is the ventilation always satisfactory?— Well, occasionally we get complaints, but, on the whole, it is satisfactory. 194. If it were not satisfactory in some cases would you have a difficulty in prosecuting successfully? —I have never had occasion to take legal proceedings, but 1 think I would have some difficulty. lam doubtful whether 1 could win a case under Additional General Rule 94. 195. The Chairman.] In what way do you consider you woxild have a difficulty?—ln regard to the 100 cubic feet. I scarcely think the rule is definite enough. 196. What would you suggest?— The rule should be so amended that there would be no misunderstanding as to the quantity and where it is to be supplied. 197. Mr. Cochrane.] And that means? —100 cubic feet of air for every man employed. 198. In each split or each stope?—ln the face. 199. Can you recommend any further provision to be inserted to provide for better air?—l do not know that I can. 200. Let me direct your attention to the question of. winzes and rises being kept well advanced to give good air to the stopes?—Yes, I think that should be done. 201. And you consider it falls within the sphere of legislation?—l think it would be a good thing for the mines if a stipulated distance were mentioned. 202. Can you suggest any provision as to keeping the winzes well forward so that the stopes shall not remain long without good air? —The custom here, of course, is to connect the winzes before stoping is commenced. 203. But in some cases we found that is not so : in one instance the men would have to wait six weeks before the winze was down to give them sufficient air ?—I consider the winzes ought to be put down to assist the ventilation, and kept well forward. 204. If you find the Act broken how do j r ou proceed ? —I generally give the mine-manager a chance. I notify him that he has broken the Act, and in some cases take action. 205. And what do you do in taking action?— First of all I have to state my case to the Under-Secretary and get authority to prosecute,

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206. Have you sufficient power at present to deal with ladderways and haulage-roads?— Yes, I think so. 207. Then you said that accidents had increased since the Relief Fund was instituted? —I would like to qualify that statement by saying that prior to the 13th April, when the fund came into operation, I had no record of minor accidents. Since then it is necessary foi me to be notified of every accident, and 1 think they must have increased. 208. Is it not very natural for them to seem to you to increase under those circumstances? — I suppose there would be some slight inducement for the men to remain off work. 209. Do you consider shower-baths sufficient?— Yes. Where rock-drills are in use I think the management should provide showers as well as hand-basins with hot water. It is impossible to get the grease off with cold water. 210. In regard to the height of stopes, do you desire the power to stop any stopes which you consider dangerous?—l do. 211. And not first to have the matter submitted to arbitration?—l want the power to stop them, and compel the management to keep them as T find them until such time as the arbitrators can see them. 212. As to the passes being full of stone, could the same purpose be effected by putting boards on top of the pass?— The boards are always liable to get broken. We have had a number of accidents through men falling down these passes. Since the passes have been kept full we have been free from accidents of that sort. 213. Would that not tend to give a smaller supply of air through the passes being choked up?—l think it is better as regards the air under the present practice, because the air is prevented from short-circuiting. 214. Mr. Molineaux.] Can you inform the Commission as to what quantity of air is being delivered by the rock-drills in the Waihi Mine?— The large-size drill would deliver 125 cubic feet of air per minute at 901b. pressure, and the same drill at 701b. pressure would deliver 97 ft. 215. Can you let us know the total number of days you were engaged on work other than inspection duties? —I can tell you only the total number of days I wns inspecting. Up to the end of July this year I had been ninety-seven days in the mines. 216. Mr. Dowgray.] I think you stated to Mr. Reed that the condition of the mines had considerably improved since you took charge?— That is my opinion, more especially the Grand Junction. 217. Do you attribute that to a closer inspection on your part?—To my practice of making demands for the regulations to be carried out. 218. And you also stated that the cages were not tested to jour satisfaction previously?— They had been tested, according to the Mining Act, once every three months. I found that that was not satisfactory, and have since had them tested once a week. 219. Do you attribute the improvement to closer supervision on your part?—l am not here to praise myself. 220. Who was Inspector of Mines previous to your appointment?—[Question ruled out by Chairman]. 221. In regard to this Additional Rule 94, you intimated to Mr. Cochrane that it is not sufficiently clear? —That is, in my opinion. Ido not think it is definite enough. 222. The Chairman.] Can you give us some idea as to wherein it is lacking : it says 100 cubic feet of air?— That is to "enter the mine," whereas T think provision should be made to compel the men to get the 100 ft. of air in the face. 223. You are prepared to recommend that that clause be altered? —Yes. 224. Mr. Dowgray .] In regard to the Court to be set up under section 266—the tribunal for inquiring into accidents—the Warden and two assessors, who shall be the holders of firstclass certificates as mine-managers—do you think that position is satisfactory in view of the fact that there is a mine-managers' association formed at the Thames? —T have never known a case where it is detrimental to the miners. 225. Is it reasonable, under those circumstances, to expect such a tribunal to give an unbiassed opinion ?—[Question ruled out by Chairman]. 226. Do you consider that, in view" of the circumstances, a more satisfactory tribunal would be the Warden, one mine-manager, and a representative of the miner's union? —I have never known any objection to the other —the present tribunal. I can only speak as to what I know. 227. In connection with section 261 of the Act, you want greater powers as to stopping stopes and other work? —I think I explained that it would be fairer if I had power to stop the stope until those who were appointed to decide the matter could visit and make an inspection of it. 228. Under the present section the Warden is the arbitrator : is he sufficient?—l think so. My point is that if I stop a stope, and there is any doubt about its safety, the company can object. After that there is an inquiry held, but in the meantime T cannot prevent them from putting men on and altering the conditions. 229. Have you ever had your ruling challenged in regard to the conditions of stopes—in the Waihi Mine, for instance?— Yes. 230. Were you the first to point it out, or was )'our attention called to it?—l cannot just remember. Probably my attention was directed to it. 231. Was it Butler's stope? —Yes. 232. Did the company on that occasion object to your finding?— Yes; but when they saw that I meant business they withdrew. 233. Was your attention directed to that stope by the workmen's inspector?— Probably it was.

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234. Have you made many inspections with the workmen's inspector? —Yes, quite a number. 235. You did not always agree with him ? —No. 236. What were the principal subjects upon which yon differed? —Probably six-hour places. 237. In reply to a question put by Mr. Cochrane you stated that accidents were on the increase since the coming into operation of the Miners' Uelief Fund : is it not a fact that prior to that date you were not in a position to know the number of minor accidents?—l admitted that. I have only had records of them since the 13th April. 238. Still, you said that you would not have thought it possible for there to be so many as you have received advice about? —Also judging by seeing more men about the streets with their hands tied up, and so forth. 239. Do 3"ou not think that your attention was move drawn to them because you had to administer the fund —that may have had something to do with it?— Yes, but previously I always made inquiries as to what was the matter. 240. In reply to Mr. Keed on the subject of the temperatures, when your attention was drawn by him to the outside temperature at the Extended Mine being 49° and 50°, you said that the humidity of the air on the surface on a wet day such as the day we were there was an argument against the fixing of a standard temperature? —That would be one reason. 241. Would you be surprised, on consulting your own table, to find that at the 960 ft. level —the bottom of the shaft—the temperature was 79J-° wet and 83° dry, so that the humidity of the air had decreased as it descended the shaft?— But you were getting the air there through that crosscut in the Junction. 242. You think that accounts for it?— Yes. 243. We will take the Grand Junction Mine : you have the outside temperature 52° and 55°, a difference of 3°?— That is right. 244. And then you go down the mine, and at Ferguson's stope you get it 64|° and 70J°, a difference of 3° as compared with the surface? —The heat takes the moisture out of the air. I can refer you to stopes in the Junction where you will get 10° difference. 245. Then take Keen's stope : in one end it was 70° wet and 75° dry, a difference of s°, while on the surface the difference was 3°; in the level there was a difference of 6|-°; so that the humidity of the air at the surface cannot possibly have anything to do with the temperature of the air in the mine? —It depends upon the rock through which the air has to pans. 246. Under those circumstances the heat of the rocks would be no different? —That is proof in itself. 247. In regard to shot-firing by electricity, do you not think the unequal resistance of the detonators is responsible for the misfires?—l have had the detonators tried on the surface with the same battery, and in several instances they have gone off. I cannot explain what is the reason. 1 could not find out. 248. In connection with your interpretation of the British Koyal Commission's decision on standard temperatures, do you not think their idea in not fixing a standard was something different to ours here? —I do not know; 1 have always held that the quantity arid quality of the air is of far more importance. 249. That is so; but after reading the report do you not think that the standard they were considering was a standard at which the men could not work at all?— No. 250. The samples of air you took at the levels : you told Mr. Reed that they were taken from the worst places? —Yes, I made that point plain, I think. 251. Did you take any samples from the Mary lode of the Junction Mine?—-Yes. 252. After they had been firing?—l took Adams's stope in the Royal level. 253. You did not take any in the Mary. I think one witness said that the Mary was worse than any in the Waihi Mine? —I took it west of the Mary lode for and it gave 0065 per cent. 254. Have you had to make any complaints in regard to the ventilation of the Waihi Mine? —Yes, a good many. 255. You heard Mr. Gilmour give evidence to the effect that his attention had only been drawn to the ventilation in Koran's stope?—He meant that that was the only case where his attention had been drawn to the matter in writing. Ido not alwa3 7 s give instructions in writing. 256. You have called his attention, on several occasions? —Yes, I have spoken to him about such matters on several occasions. 257. He further went on to say that there was sufficient air for twenty-six men there? —No; but I took the air-measurements there myself. 258. With what result?—l found that there, was more than ample air, but the stope was closed up when I took it. 259. Do you think the ventilation in the Grand Junction Mine has improved since the installation of the exhaust fan? —I think it has. 260. There is a greater volume of air?— Yes, a greater volume circulating up the levels. 261. Had you any occasion to complain about the ventilation prior to the installation of the fan ? —Yes. 262. If you turn to your tables you will find that on the 28th July, 1911, you took a reading of the air in the main crosscut, No. 5 level, and got 21,350 ft., and when the Commission took it the other day they only got 16,293 ft. : how do you account for the difference? —The day would make the difference. It depends upon the surface conditions; it would read more on a fine day. 263. On the 19th January, in the main crosscut, No. 3 level, you got 6,154 ft., and in the same place the other day the Commission got 9,332 ft. : this time the difference is in favour of our reading?— The atmosphere accounted for that. 264. But our readings were taken on the same day, and yet in one case we got less than you and in the other we got more?— The mullock pass might have been open.

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205. But it should have had the same effect on your readings: your readings would be taken near the shaft?-—Yes, 1 took them near the shaft. 266. The readings taken at the main crosscut on No. 4 level show a difference of 3,000 cubic feet iii our favour? —Of course, I cannot remember the conditions .on the day I took mine, but as far as I know they were correctly taken. '267. In connection with the ventilation of mines do you not think it would facilitate matters, so far as you arc concerned, if companies were compelled to keep a ventilation-plan after they had commenced operations a given time, showing the air-currents and doors, the plan to be brought up lo date, say, once a month?- —The position is this: the companies comply with the regulations, and there my duty ceas 268. But the regulations should be altered. You have said so in regard to one matter? 269. The Chairman.~\ In regard to that matter of the Act not definitely stating, as }-ou say it does not, that the 100 ft. of air shrill be provided in the working-face, has any Court interpreted that that,section means only that the air shall enter the mine?—l have never heard of such a case. 270. Mr. Dowgray.~\ So you do not think that if companies were compelled to install ventilating fans it would assist you at all—take the Waihi Mine, for instance? —Well, the Waihi Company lias a great many shafts. . 271. If they showed the shafts on the plan? —The Act would require to be amended. 272. Would it not be better to have provision made?— Yes, perhaps; but it is not the same as in a coal-mine. You do not have the gas in a coal-mine. 273. But there is excessive heat in a gold-mine, and there is not excessive gas. We had Mr. Gilmour before us, and he could not tell us how these sections were ventilated? —Of course, the Waihi Company has not gone in for a plan system of ventilation. 274. Do you not think they should have a plan to enable you to see how the mine is ventilated? —1 do not suppose there would be any harm in it, to show where these splits are. 275. The Chairman ..] With the system of ventilation in the Waihi Mine could you go into any part of the mine and find out by measurements with any accuracy whether each man was getting his proper quantity of air?—] do not think you could if the best system possible were introduced, because the anemometer will not indicate less than 50 ft. In wide stopes you know by the candle perhaps that there is a draught, but you could not register it. lake, for instance, the Crown Mines when the Commissioners inspected it. 276. Do you know of any way that 3-011 could ascertain it? —By calculating the speed of the smoke. You could measure the air-current that way. 277. Mr. Dowgray.] Is that a reliable test?—l prefer the anemometer. In some places the smoke travels fast, down below. It would be a difficult matter to get the exact reading. 278. The Chairman.\ Practically speaking, then, the only way is by taking the quantity of air going in and the quantity coming out? —I take the passes underground and measure them, also in the ladderway. 279. Mr. Dowgray.] If the company were compelled to have a plan you could trace if anythink went wrong?—lt is difficult to show all the air-currents of the whole mine. 280. Have they ventilation-plans on the other side? —I do not know. 281. If it were so would you be prepared to put a similar provision in the New Zealand Act? —I have considered the quality and quantity. It is very hard to keep a plan up to date. The system of ventilating is continually changing; that applies more particularry to gold-mines. If you get a winze through it alters the system altogether. 282. Is the system of gold-mining in Australia similar to what it is here?—l do not know. 283. If they have provision there would you recommend it being embodied in our New Zealand Act? We are here to try to improve upon the present system?—l consider the mines here are adequately ventilated. 284. Mr. Parry.] In connection with a standard height of stopes you said, in answer to Mr. Reed, that you considered it should be 8 ft. on solid ground?— From the crown of the stope to the back. 285. Supposing the filling was not within 5 ft. of the stope?—lt would be too high; it should be brought up. 286. How would you regulate that? —It would regulate itself. At the present time there is no regulation except the contract condition. 287. Do you not think it would be judicious to have a standard height from the solid to the back? —Yes, I would be quite prepared to make a standard height from the solid. 288. It would be easier to keep to? —Yes; I should say 10 ft. from the solid. 289. Is it not a fact that the temperatures in Waihi are on the increase? —I do not think they are- —not generally. 290. In regard to the samples of air taken by yourself, did you have them tested to ascertain if there were any other impurities present? —Yes; one lot was taken where I was doubtful of it. 291. So that there may have been other impurities in the other samples?—l do not know what other impurities there could be except dust. 292. In answer to Mr. Eeed you said the difference in temperatures in the Waihi and Junction Mines was due to the fact that the rocks in the Waihi Mine were warmer? —Yes, that is so, in the bottom levels. 293. Well, if the Waihi Mine is adequately ventilated, and the rocks there are warmer, how much has the temperature of the rocks in the Junction Mine decreased within the last three or four months? —It has decreased 5° or 6° in one particular part. 204. Would it not be decreased between 4° and 5° where the high temperatures were taken, with the exception of two places? —I suppose it would.

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295. Why? —By the connection with the Extended and the crosscut right round to the Empire and back to the shaft. 296. Hence the strong circulation of air has reduced the temperature by 4° or 5°? —Yes. 297. Would that not also apply to the Waihi Mine? —It does apply as they open up. 298. But, still, the temperatures on the average are higher in the Waihi Mine? —Yes, in one or two places. 299. In eighty-seven places in the Waihi Mine there is an average of 79° : do you think you could get an average of fifty places in the Junction as high as 79°?— There are not so many places working in the Junction. 300. Do you think half the places in the Junction would average thai 'I —Yes, probably more than half of them. 301. There were nine places in the Junction where we got an average of over 70° : would those be the warmest places there? —You were in some of the warmest places. There were no temperatures taken at No. 4 level, though. 302. So that, if the difference in the temperatures is thrown off from the rocks, then a larger current of air would reduce the temperature in the Waihi Mine at those places?— Yes, of course, it would. 303. What is your opinion of the connection between the Waihi Mine and the Junction as regards temperatures and better ventilation? —If the connection were made it would increase the velocity of the air-current, no doubt. As regards the smoke I do not know how it would affect the two mines. The weather conditions causes the air to vary. Sometimes it travels one way, and sometimes the other. 304:. Supposing a connection were made, would you favour it being made compulsory, with the power vested in the hands of the Inspector, to close the door if the connection were found to be detrimental to the ventilation?— Yes, 1 think it would be fair to leave it in the hands of the Inspector. 305. Is it not a fact that it is difficult to ascertain the quantity of air in the Waihi Mine owing to the irregularity of the circulation? —Most of the places have the required quantity of air passing through, with only two exceptions, as far as I know. 306. Under the system of ventilation in the Waihi Mine would it not be impossible for you to prove a case against the company for not having the stipulated quantity of air circulating in the faces? —Of course, it would devolve upon me to prove that the air was not there, and, as I pointed out a while ago, it is a very difficult matter to measure it. 307. In the event of your prosecuting the company would it not be impossible for you to prove your case owing to that irregularity: one day there may be more than 100 ft., and only half that quantity on the next day? —I have not found it as bad as that. 308. Is it not a fact that in my presence 3?ou have attempted to ascertain the amount of air and found it impossible to get a reading, and we have gone back the next day and obtained a reading? —Yes, that has happened; the same thing happened with the Commission, but you could not say there was no air there. 309. What is the cause of that?— Sometimes it is the cages that affect it; that is what I put it down to. 310. That being so, are not the air-currents irregular?— That air-current was diverted into another course for the time being. 311. Does that not show that they are irregular?—At times they are irregular. 312. Supposing artificial ventilation were provided by means of a fan or blower, under a system of distribution could you not ascertain with greater certainty the amount of air distributed in a particular port of the mine?—No, it would just be about the same; it would be no easier under one system than under the other. 313. Have you ever had reason to speak to the management regarding the use of the knockerlines by men other than the chamberman cannot remember that 1 had. I could not tell you. 314 Not at No. 6 shaft? —Yes, I had some reason to complain there. I might state that the men were landing timber there, and anybody was allowed to send the skip aw r ay. I made the manager appoint a responsible man. 315. You say that more accidents happen on day shift than on night shift : is it not a fact that there are three times as many men working on day shift as there are on night shift? —I do not know the exact figures, but T suppose there are more men working on day shift than on night shift. 316. That would account for more accidents happening on day shift?—T have never heard the night shift blamed for being the cause of accidents. 317. Do you think a man is capable of looking after himself when working on night shift? — I think, when a man goes underground, it is his first duty to look after himself. I think he ought to have his faculties about him the same on night shift as lie lias on the day shift. 318. In regard to men washing their clothes in the hand-basins, that was in operation when you made a complaint to the company?— Yes. 319. Do you not think it would be advisable for the companies to provide washing-tubs for the men to wash their dirty clothes on Saturday evenings?— Most of them have places to wash their clothes. 320. What is the cause of their using the hand-basins if they have other places?—l have seen men using the hand-basins who did not seem to know it was w y rong to do so. 321. Do you think, if there were adequate room to wash their clothes, they would use the basins? —The clothes should be washed apart from the bath-houses altogether.

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•322. In regard to a standard temperature, who do you think is the best judge as to the effect of liot places —the man who works there, or a man who comes along with an instrument and takes the temperature? —If it were left to a man himself he would not work more than six hours. 323. Who is the best judge, 1 ask? —I suppose the man would be the best judge —a man who has had some years experience, and who is acquainted with the conditions; though I do not think it should be left altogether to the man. 324. You think that a man not working in the place is in as good a position to decide the matter? —He ought to know the condition of the place when he enters it. 325. Have you had very much experience of hot places?—l have. 1 have worked in places where the temperature registered over 90°. 326. Where?—At the Thames. 327. Was that a dry temperature or a saturated temperature?—A saturated temperature. 328. How long did you work in that temperature?— About eighteen months. 329. How long ago was that?— About twenty-six or twenty-seven years ago. 330. What effect did that have upon you?—l should say it was' rather warm. 331. Were they in the habit of taking saturated temperatures at that time? —No; but we had a thermometer there for our own information. 332. And did you consider that that temperature was too high to work in? How long were you working in it ?—Eight hours. 333. Did you consider that was a, long shift I —-Well, there were no complaints about the length of the shift. 334. Were you working on wages or for yourself?—On wages. 335. Tell us what effect it had upon you : how did you feel after your day's work was done? —Tired, of course. 336. Did you feel any ill effects at all?—No, I cannot say that I did. 337. Did you work without your shirt? —Yes. 338. And by virtue of that experience which you gained then you contend that you are in a position to decide what effect a temperature has upon a man in any other place?—l do not always take the temperature into consideration; there are other conditions to be taken into account. If there is ample air of good quality I do not consider the temperature so much as I would without good air. I know of places which do not register more than 60° or 65° which I would have no hesitation in making six-hour places. 339. For what, then? —For lack of ventilation. 340. In the Waihi Mine?— No. 341. Have you discovered a place with a temperature of 60° in Waihi which you consider to be a six-hour place?— No. 342. Would it be on account of the gases or not? —Simply on account of a lack of air. 343. You think it is possible for a place to be unfit for a man to work in on account of lack of ventilation and yet be only 60°?— Yes, on account of air conditions —lack of air. 344. And if there was not sufficient air do you think it would not be more than 60°?— Not in the places I have referred to, because the ground was naturally cool. 345. You heard the medical evidence yesterday to the effect that working in hot places is likely to affect the heart? —Yes. 346. Have you heard complaints made by men as to their hearts being affected? —No, not personally. 347. Have you heard complaints at all from miners in W 7 aihi as to working in hot places? —Yes, when I have been in your company I.have heard men say it would knock a man out, that it was hot, and so forth. 348. Do you not think that it would be better working in a, temperature of 90° on the surface than in the same temperature underground, provided the air were just the same?— Yes, I should say it was. 349. Would you sooner work in a temperature of 70° below than a temperature of 85° or 86° below? —It depends entirely upon the conditions. 350. Everything being favourable? —All things being alike I would take the low temperature. 351. Therefore you would sooner take the low temperature than the higher one? —Yes, the conditions being equal. 352. For instance, in the Waihi Extended Mine, where the temperature taken was 90°, how many hours do you consider a man should work in that place? Do you think that was too severe for a man to work in?— They did not have sufficient air there. •353. Of course, if they had a bigger current of air the temperature of the rock would have been reduced? —It would certainly have been better for the working-conditions if they had a bigger current of air. 354. So that it would not matter if the temperature were 100°, so long as the air-current were good, you would not consider that temperature too high for a man to work in for eight hours — you would not think it detrimental to him?—lf the ventilation were satisfactory I should think the men would adapt themselves to the position and work accordingly. 355. Now, then, who is the man to see that they adapt themselves to the conditions?— The mine-manager—the employer. 356. So that the men have not the right to work intermittently? —An experienced manager would never object to a man going out. 357. Do you not think the management would object if men were seen walking about looking for a cool place ?—ln the Extended I have gone down and seen the men taking a rest. 358. If a man is on contract it is to his detriment to do so from a financial point of view? — Yes.

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359. Mr. Heed.] Ihere were differences between the readings taken by us in the Grand Junction Mine and yours. Sometimes you got mure and sometimes we got .more. Supposing a board was left off when one of us took a measurement, would that account for the difference? — Yes, but i believe it was due to natural causes. ■360. Supposing the level was blocked up with trucks, tnighi that aoi reduce the volume of air? —Yes. 361. Would not that air go bo another level , / —Yes, it would be diverted. 362. Is :t not common for such diversions to occur in mines where the air passes through several levels?—] take it that if the air cannot get one way it travels by another. 363. Do you think it is possible to get the same quantity exactly?—No; I think, in order to make sure, you would have to take a number of readings and average them. 364. So that if the air docs not go by one conduit it would go by another? —Yes, it would find the easiest way out. 365. As regards contractors taking a spell, have you ever heard a manager refusing a man aission to do so? — Personally, it lias never come under my knowledge. 366. Do you know if it is a practice for managers to allow contractors t<! come up to the levels for a cool?— That I could not say. 307. Would it be necessary for a man to climb 1,000 ft. to gel a cool when he is working in ;i stope?- — No, I have never heard of such a thing. 368. Where do they get cool?—In the level. 369. Mr. Cochrane.] In regard to these samples sent for analysis of the air, what instructions did you give as to the analysis?— The last lot were for CO and COy. 370. And for any other injurious gases?—-The first lot were analysed for then contents. 371. For sulphuretted hydrogen I—l1 —I did not mention anything. 372. Had such been present in the last lot it would not have been referred to? —Probably not. 373. How long have you been using the hygrometer?-—Pretty well ever since 1 came here in 1909. 374. When did you first use it?— About nine months after I came here. 375. Then, in the case you quoted of the air being saturated at 90°, twenty-six years ago, how did you know that?— From my own experience. 376. Do you think the provision in the Mining Act regarding the 100 ft. of air per man is ambiguous? —Well, it is hard to establish proof. 377. Mr. Dowgray.] I am not quite clear as to the position you take up in regard to section 261 : would you be in favour of that clause being amended so that you would be the sole arbitrator as to when a place was dangerous, and not refer the matter to the Warden? —That would put a great responsibility on the Inspector, and it does not give the company a chance. 378. Mr. Parry.] You heard Mr. Gilmour say yesterday that he thought it would be better if you were to furnish a report on your inspection of the mine: what do you think of that?— 1 think it would be taking some responsibility off Mr. Gilmour. I do not feel inclined to say that the mine is safe. I might not be out of the mine four hours when an accident happened. A man cannot see the mine in a day. [Mote. —-For further Waihi evidence see that of Messrs. W. T. Grace and H. P. Barry, taken in Wellington on the 15th November, 1911, after Hokitika evidence.] Kakangahakb (Public Hall). —Ist September, 1911. Matthew Paul examined. I. The ('hairman.] You are Inspector of Mines for the district. You produce tables showing the temperatures and air-currents of the mines in this district? —Yes. These figures relate to the Talisman and Crown Mines. [Exhibit No. 11 put in.] Michael Markinbb sworn and examined. (No. 40.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?--—I am acting-secretary of the Karangahake branch of the Miners' Union. 2. Have you had any milling experience? —Yes, about twenty years; but 1 have not done ii> 'inning now this twenty years. 3. Upon what matters do you wish to address the Commission? —I wish to make a few remarks in regard to the number of accidents which have occurred in this district during the last two years. There have been 156 accidents during that time, from the lOth June, 1909, to the 30th June, 1911. 4. Can you tell us what were tin' causes of the majority of them?— Falls of earth, strains, Mid injuries to hands, heads, and every part of a man's anatomy. 5.-Have you any first-hand knowledge as to how they occurred?—No, 1 was not present. 6. Mow long we're the men off work, on an average?—l could not say. I have not gone into that matter. 7. Were there any fatal accidents? —Not during the last two years. 8. How long is it since there ivas a fatal accident? —The last one occurred in April, 1909. 9. How was it caused? -By an explosion in the Talisman Mine. 10. Do you know the nature of the explosion : was it the result of a misfire or a hangfire?—l cannot say. 11. Hart you any suggestion to make as to means or precautions which may be taken to minimize the risk of accidents? —No, I cannot express an opinion on that matter. 12. Is there any other subject you wish to refer to? —No.

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Waltek Smith sworn and examined. (No. 41.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your occupation I —l am a miner. 2. How long have you been mining , ' —About fifteen years. 3. Where.' —Principally in Ohinemuri, but part of my time I was at Waiomo. 4. Have you any certificates or do you hold any office in a mine?—l have a first-class minemanager's certificate, but I do not hold any office in a mine. 5. How long have you held your certificate? —About eighteen months. 6. Which mine are you working in? —The Talisman. 7. As a miner?— Yes. • . 8. How long have you been in that mine i —l cannot compute the time exactly, but my experience extends over a period of about fourteen years in the mines here, i<. .Vow, on what matters do you wish to inform the Commission? —I have been delegated by the union to place before the Commission the questions of ventilation, and sanitation in the mines, hi the first place, the causes of accidents in mining are varied, but I. wish to show that lack of ventilation is one of the chief causes. Accidents met with from inhalation of poisonous gases is the subject of special interest to miners on account of their frequent exposure while working underground. The best-ventilated mines are not entirely free from this danger, and as a consequence miners are sometimes overcome by breathing gases collected or generated in stopes of other parts of workings which cannot be wholly purified. 1 may add that compressed air is good to cause agitation if properly conducted. Miners, as a rule, are taught that wherever the candle will not burn it is not a safe place to enter. While that is so, they should also understand that this test is not infallible. There may be, and often is, an admixture of gases capable of supporting the (lame of a candle and yet deadly when inhaled—viz., carbon-monoxide and sulphuretted hydrogen. I may here stare that the combination of carbon-monoxide and carbondioxide increases their toxicity. Where explosives are used in large quantities, as they are in the mines, there are two gases given off which affect the miners — carbon-dioxide and carbonmonoxide. Monoxide is the one to be feared, because it will support the candle-flame and yet be deadly to the human organism. Therefore 1 would recoi I where large quantities of explosives are used a provision should be made compelling the use of sprays of lime. That would form carbonates with the gas and render it innocuous. 10. Do you find these gases in the local mines?— They are found everywhere where there is combustion, but I am very pleased to say that carbon-dioxide is not given off in these mines as it is at the Thames. But the truckers are the men most seriously affected as the result of handling the material. 11. What ventilating system would you suggest to improve the conditions for the truckers?— A lime spray or sulphate of iron should lie used, as it would form carbonates. 12. Where would you suggest that it be used? —In the face after the material is broken. Considering that health is the first consideration, I think that all the men should be supplied with plenty of air as far as possible. A man breathing down in a mine is quite different to one breathing on the surface. His heart is affected, because he has to breathe perhaps twice as quickly. ! have used myself as an experiment during the last five years, and 1 have found an advantage from deep breathing, the value of which should be impressed upon every miner. This leads to another point : I consider that the carbon-dioxide helps the (lust to cause what is known as pneumoconiosis, otherwise known as miners' phthisis or miners' complaint. Therefore, if he can expel the gas from his lungs there is a greater chance of his being able to keep his health for a longer period. In regard to the dust problem I think water should be used with all holes, especially, of course, dry holes. You might, however, get it naturally wet, and then you would not need to use the jet. You cannot force a miner to use the water, and I think, therefore, a provision should be embodied in the law for their own protection. Most of the men are so care less of their health that they say a man is a fool when these things are suggested to them. In regard to the temperature in mines, I do not agree with, a system of taking readings in a haphazard manner. I think there is a proper time to take these measurements which would give fair results to everybody. The reading should be taken at noon, for , the reason that you then have the mine under ordinary working-conditions. If you take it coming in on tho Sunday night shift, when everything is pure and there i- nothing to resist it, the ventilation is better, mill yon get more pure air than/you would under proper working-conditions. T wish to say also, in regard to temperatures, that 75° is sufficiently hot for a man to work in under good conditions—that is, the air must be fit for a man to breathe. It should be tested to find out the amount of carbon-dioxide it contains. Then 1 understand you have been asked to deal with sanitary matters. In this connection we have had a report from Dr. Mason, the Health Officer, in regard to the necessity for the care of sanitary conveniences in mines, and I think all concerned have not evinced the interest that should be taken in the matter. I refer to the men as well as to those representing the owners. The w.c.'s should have proper pans, and there should also be a specialist to look after these things, instead of it being left to the men employed on wages or contract to see that they are emptied. The point I wish to make is that carelessness in regard to these matters is likely to cause ankylostomiasis. It is known in Cornwall and on the Continent, and I want to ask this Commission to make some investigation regarding the matter, as far as New Zealand is concerned, as to whether we have the disease here. I am quite convinced that the flies which infest these places get into miners' cribs, and may deposit the eggs to be hatched inside of the person who eats such cribs. Miners walk through filthy places, where the flies inhabit, and it is possible, when the ladders are climbed, the eggs may leave their boots and get on the rungs of the ladders; the next man would then grasp the rungs, and might transmit the eggs to his mouth.

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13. Have you any recommendation to make in regard to the matter?—l consider there should be a searching inquiry made to find if svich a thing exists in New Zealand, and, for fear it does exist, provision should ho made to enforce the use of proper sanitary arrangements. 14. Are the sanitary arrangements not satisfactory in the mines in Kararigahake I—l1 —I was not referring to any mines in particular. I am satisfied that the arrangements are better than they have been, but in certain cases they are not what they should be. 15. Are the pans not emptied every day?— Not in every case. It is not done, for instance, in the Crown Mine. 16. How often are they removed there?—As often as the men think fit. They are supposed to empty them, but yo\i know that what is everybody's business is nobody's business, and the result is that the matter is not attended to at all in the long-run. 17. Mr. Dowgray.] In connection with ventilation, is there any difficulty in getting each level to ventilate itself? —To overcome the difficulty it might be expensive, but as far as the problem itself is concerned I think it could be overcome. 18. Would you explain how it could be arranged? —By carrying the fumes and bad air direct to the upcast. Unless there was a fan in the shallow mines you would be at the mercy of the atmospheric conditions, but in the deeper mines you could carry the fumes direct to the upcast by an exhaust. 19. If you had an exhaust you would have to have a companion level, or would the top level do for a return?—Of course, it is a difficult thing. If there were fumes coming up there is no reason why they should not be collected by an air sollar or a brattice and taken out direct to the upcast. It is in practice, but not so much in gold-mining. 20. We know it is in practice in coal-mines, but there seems to be a difficulty in connection with gold-mines?— Well, that explains the problem. 21. It is a matter of expense?— Yes, in a coal-mine safety might depend upon methane, and therefore for the safety of the mine it would be taken away. 22. In connection with the ventilation of a mine do you not think it would facilitate matters if the companies were compelled to have a ventilation-plan showing air-currents, and doors, and stoppings? —Yes, you could then point out what improvements could be made. 23. And the workmen's inspector and the Government Inspector could keep themselves familiar with the whole circulation? —Yes. 24. Would you be in favour of a clause being inserted in the Act to that effect? —Yes, because 1 think it is necessary to show the air-currents in a mine. 25. In connection with sprays, you are in favour of its being made compulsory for the men to use them—they use them in a haphazard fashion now—and a fine should bo imposed for not using them?—l do not know about the fine_, but I think something should be done. I do not believe in the spray, but a jet should be used. 26. What is your opinion of the necessity for mechanical ventilation in deep mines where the air-currents are not always certain? —They are not always certain. In the summer sometimes you may get 80° outside and 80° inside. You must have some difference to cause a current. 27. And a system which is so uncertain is not reliable?—No, it is not reliable. 28. So, under those conditions, an exhaust should be used?—l am in favour of an exhaust in all cases. 29. What is your opinion of a braceman doing other duties? —I think it is very wrong. If he is appointed braceman lie should do nothing else. 30. He should not be called away upon other duties?—No; we have had accidents happen through that. 31. Do you think that no man other than the braceman or chamberman should be allowed to use the knocker-lines? —I certainly do. 32. But it is done?— Yes. 33. Do you think that the little black fly is the fly that causes ankylostomiasis?- -In my opinion it is. I have studied this thing for five years. 34. Mr. Parry.'] In the event of the rock-temperatures being high, and it being impossible to cool them by a current of air, what steps would you take?—l should put cold water on them. 35. Would that not have a tendency to saturate the air? —Yes. 36. Do you think working in a high temperature underground has a bad effect upon a man's constitution? —I think I made that pretty clear before. If he gets the air at 70° it is expanded, and as you expand it you reduce its weight, and consequently you do not get the quality. Therefore you may only get half the oxygen which should be in the air, with the result that there is a severe tax upon the heart. 37. In the event of the temperature being high and the air still being good, do you think that would have an effect upon a man?— The air might be good and expanded, but still it would have an effect upon him. 38. And in those places what would you suggest?— Shorter hours. 39. What temperature would you suggest?—lt has been suggested by men who have worked in those places that 75° should be the maximum for eight hours, bank to bank. 40. Would you consider that the readings of the air-currents taken while the cages are not in motion are a fair test of the amount of air delivered into a mine? —No, I would not; there is no resistance against it. 41. What is your opinion about ladderways or travelling-ways for air in those places: do you think they are large enough?—ln some cases Yes, in others No. It all depends upon the number of men working there as regards ventilation. 42. Would it be better to deliver a greater quantity of air? —Yes; that is one of the three laws of friction.

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43. Do you think that ladderways 2 ft. 6 in. by 2 ft. 6 in. are large enough? —Yes, in some oases, where the steps are small, and where only two or three men are employed. 44. Do you think 2 ft. 6 in. by 2 ft. 6 in. a sufficient size for a travelling-way? —Not for a main travelling-way. 45. What would you suggest as a sufficient size—for air, and taking everything into consideration?—lt should be 4 ft. by 4 ft. in order to get a man out in case of accident. I would like to state, however, that in some cases the small ladderway has saved a man's life when he has overbalanced and has been able to touch the sides. 46. What is your opinion about the size of stope-blocks ? —My opinion is that they should not be over 100 ft. 47. Why?— Because you have to make such long connections to get through. 48. Is there not also the difficulty of getting your material into those stopes?—Yes, if it has got to come from below. 49. If the blocks are high is there not more likelihood of timber being left out where it should be used?— Yes, because if a man feels exhausted he will not drag a stick up if there is any chance of doing without it, unless he is under strict supervision. 50. What is your opinion re shot-fixers? —In many cases it would be a good thing —that is, where a large number of holes were to be exploded—but I would not advocate it for a stope where the holes are few. 51. Do you think it would tend to minimize accidents?— Yes, for this reason : we have men coming into the mining communities who are not practised in the use of explosives, and sometimes you find that where a round of holes is being fired there is not 6 in. of fuse to go before a man makes his exit. 52. What is your opinion about the height of stopes : do you think there should be a standard height?—l think you should always have some standard. 53. What would you suggest?—lt should never be higher than a man can examine the back, because where it gets to, say, 20 ft. a man has no control over anything above him. 54/ Do you think there is any great risk with one man only at the engine when men are being raised and lowered ?—That is a debatable question. I have tried to reason it out, and it appears to me that there is a danger in that the man may faint and the engine be left uncontrolled. 55. The Chairman.'] Have you ever heard or known of an instance of that? —No, I have never known of an accident, but I did hear of a man fainting, though there was no accident. Looking at it in the light of prevention being better than cure it would be a good thing to have a second man. 56. Mr. Parry.] What is } r our opinion about stopes being worked on timber and the filling not being kept up close?—l do not believe in the system. 57. And you suggest a standard height for that reason? —That is not the reason why I do not believe in it. It is because there is a danger of a man falling into space, and also because of the loss of quartz falling into opening and lessening production. 58. Can you suggest a standard height for stopes from the filling to the back?— Making allowance for the "accumulation of dirt underfoot I would suggest 10 ft. You would then have full control over the backs. 59. What, in your opinion, is responsible for the major portion of the accidents in Karangahake and Waihi ?—The contract system is blamed for them, and that is my opinion. 60. The Chairman.] Do you blame the contract system or the contract price?— The contract system and the contract price—one is the cause, and the other is the effect. ' 61. Does the fault lie with the system or the price? —The system is the cause of it. Men do things to make a living which they should not do. If the system was not in vogue they would not take the risks. 62. Still, you have not given us the reason why the contract system is the cause of the accidents? The men put in a certain price, which is generally cut fairly fine, and if they find they are not doing too well they work their hardest and neglect precautions which they should take, in order to make, perhaps, an extra shilling per day. 63. Do you consider that the contract system is responsible for the greater rush and carelessness so as to create more danger to themselves than would be caused under the wages system?— Yes I do ' 64. Is it not really the price that is at fault? If they had a better price they would not require to rush matters so much in order to make the same amount of money? Do you think they would rush all the same?—l believe some men would. I am sorry to say I have that feeling 65. Mr. Parry.] Do you think men working on 12 o'clock nirfit shift are as capable of taking care of themselves as the men on the day shift? —Some men may be, but most men are not, because some do not get sufficient sleep. 66 Have you worked on 12 o'clock shift yourself ?—Not as much as others. 67. Does it have an effect upon your system?— Yes; until T get warmed up to it I feel I would rather stay at home than go to work. 68 Mr Cochrane.] In regard to sulphate-of-iron sprays, what is it you would recommend ! —Just what is recommended in the Mining Act—that they be used with the material broken. It is mentioned that where water does not suffice sulphate of iron is to be used, but I do not know that the men get it. 69 Then what you recommend is stricter enforcement ! —Yes. 70. Then, as to the using of water eompulsorilv. where would you specify it should be used? —In rises. In a stope it does not matter. 71. And with rock-drilling machines? —That is what I refer to.

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Nn T 't'm Are f y ° U aWa J^ tha l an instigation on the subject has been made in New Zealand ?- No, lam not aware of it. There are things done which are not made known to us /o. now, as to the pans for sanitary arrangements, would you make it mandatory in th* ■in eleo,riC firinS '" No, """" "**"•"*■ b « '"™ <»" <? I, 7' /m- Beerf " ] i ln additi ? n t0 your first-class certificate you hold other certificates from the for vent°ila«on eS ' f ° r ventilation ? ~ Yes - r have a School of Mines certificate 78. And you suggest the lime spray to lay carbon-dioxide in the face? Yes 79. Will you tell us where does the carbon-dioxide come from: does it come from the men? —xes. 80. From candles burning?— Yes. 81. From explosives?— Yes. 82. From fissures in the rocks?— Yes. 83. Where does the most of the carbon-dioxide come from generally?—ln our particular case where there is an absence of the carbonates in the rocks, it comes from the men, the candles and the explosives. ' 84. Then, would you spray the men—that would only allay a small proportion of the carbondioxide?—A man only gives off 3or 4 per cent, of carbon-dioxide, which mixes with the air round about him, and after an explosion, when a man is shovelling the material up, he takes the gas down into his system. 85. Would that not be a very small proportion from the men? —Yes. 86. So that the spray would cover only a very small proportion of the gas of the mine? Yes, it would cover a particular place. 87. What about the trucking-roads and other portions of the mine where there was no water spray?-—Well, if you render the gas in the faces innocuous, I do not think there would be so much carboniferous matter in the roads. It would not go along the level. 88. But does not the gas come from places other than the faces?— Yes. 89. How would you get over the difficulty, then?—Bv exhausting the air properly. 90. And your spray would only apply to the face?— Yes. 91. You stated that most of the accidents are due to the inhalation of gas?— That leads up to the cause of them. 92. What accident here has resulted from the inhalation of gas in your fifteen years' experience? Will you tell us of one?— The accident which occurred to Mr. Clavis. 93. How did it happen?—He went into a winze after firing a round of holes, and I take it that with the carbon-dioxide there was monoxide. 94. How do you know? —From the result. 95. Was an analysis made? —No; the man was the barometer. 96. How can a man detect carbon-dioxide? —By the candle. 97. What percentage of carbon-dioxide is necessary to be observable on a candle % —With from 8 per cent, up to 10 per cent, the candle goes out, and 12 to 14 per cent, causes death. 98. In regard to carbon-monoxide, what proportion is necessary to be observable on a candle? —I have read that it makes the flame more blue. 99. What percentage makes the flame burn more brilliantly , ?—l am not sure. 100. Are you aware that it is 12 per cent. ?—No. 101. Could you tell us what proportion is fatal to life? —One per cent. 102. So is it not a fact that it takes twelve times as much carbon-monoxide to make a flame burn more brilliantly than it does to kill a man?— Yes. 103. As a matter of fact, no man has ever seen it—he would be dead before that?— That is so. But there are other things which would tell you the danger-limit before it reached 12 per cent. —for instance, a live mouse. 104. Have you tried them here? —No. 105. I think I interrupted you when you were describing the accident which was caused to a man by Ihe inhalation of gas: how did it happen?—He fired a round of holes by electricity, and when they went to the winze there was water in it. My own explanation after the occurrence was that, as water takes in volume per volume under ordinary pressure, there must have been an excess of this gas, which the man must have inhaled, and we, not knowing how to render first aid in such a case, allowed it to remain in him. He was overcome by that gas and was choked. 106. Can you tell us another case of an accident being due to inhalation? —I myself have been overcome. 107. Did you suffer an accident?—l fell down a rise. 108. From the inhalation of the gas? —Yes; and that has happened to me on more occasions than one, although I have been able to maintain my presence of mind. 109. You stated, when referring to ventilation, that on the night shift everything is pure : how do you account for that—you were referring to the necessity for taking temperatures at midday?—l hope that the other gentlemen on the Commission have not misunderstood me. T

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meant to infer this : that on Sunday night, or Monday morning at 1 o'clock, the air would be in a purer condition, because it would be circulating from Saturday afternoon until Sunday night, and therefore purify and cool the mine. 110. Now, if everything is purer at that time, should not the night shift be the safer?— Not on any other night shift than that, after the mine has been stopped for a day. 111. The night shift, not having as much vitiated air, would be the safer?— That is not so. You have to take into consideration dead-ends. 112. You stated, when speaking of ventilation, that in deep mines the current remains constant?—lt is more likely to remain constant in a deep mine than in a shallow mine. 113. What do you call a deep mine—how many hundred feet?— Below sea-level. The Talisman is looked upon as a deep mine. 114. Is the Waihi Mine? There they have natural ventilation, which remains constant?— If you had a temperature of 80° in that mine on a hot day the ventilation would cease if the temperature outside was 80°. 115. In a mine like the Talisman do you think that the natural ventilation is equal to that produced by the two shafts in a mine like the Waihi 1 The Talisman has an adit and a shaft: are those equally good conditions as compared with the Waihi, where the shafts are on the same level?— You have an upcast shaft in the Talisman. 116. How do 3'ou account for the Talisman having such a great circulation of air?- —One thing would cause it, and that is the difference in the temperature outside. 117. You recommended the playing of water on the rocks to cool them : in how much of the mine would you apply that water?— That would be a scientific consideration. In the Simplon Tunnel the water from the rocks was 140°, and they reduced that temperature to 70° by applying cold water to the stone. 118. In the Waihi Mine there are twenty miles of ways : would you suggest that the rocks there be all sprayed with water ?—I consider that that heat is the result of sulphides. 119. But in the crosscuts there are no sulphides?— After you stopped the cooling system a plentiful supply of ventilation would be provided. 120. Would this deluging of the rocks make the conditions humid? —Yes. 121. Would it make it uncomfortable for the men and truckers?— Yes. 122. Do you not think that a greater volume of air would be better? —Yes, I think so. Therefore, I take it, they would open their levels out properly. David Leach sworn and examined. (No. 42.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—l am a stationer at present, but I have had fourteen years' experience in different branches of mining, chiefly in connection with machinery. 2. How long ago?—Up till three years ago. 3. Do you hold any certificates?— Yes, I have a first-class stationary, a river engine-driver's certificate, and an oil-engine driver's certificate, also a winding-engine driver's certificate. 4. What matters do you wish to lay before the Commission ? —I wish to place before you my experience in regard to the health of miners, amongst whom I have lived for the last sixteen years. As an outside observer in the first instance, and as a member of a friendly society since coming here, my attention has been drawn to the great number of accidents which miners suffer. I have not the evidence with me, but I could supply it to show that these lodges here have a greater amount of sickness on their books and a larger percentage of accidents than the average lodge in all other occupations. This is due to the miner being more liable to disease and accident. 5. Could you furnish us with a list of accidents and diseases, showing their exact nature?— Yes, I could get out that information. The accidents cover the whole range of injuries to which the miner is subject, but the great mass of sickness which the lodges have to deal with, apart from actual accidents, is due to lung troubles. 6. Have you had experience in regard to lung troubles during recent periods?— The trouble is becoming more rampant. Up to eight years ago lodges were far better off 'financially than they are now. The position is getting more and more acute, and in attempting to deal with the difficulty two propositions present themselves—viz., we will either have to increase the contributions or reduce the benefits. That is due to the fact that miners are more liable to accidents than men in other occupations. Other lodges are building up surpluses while we are going behind. I may say that this information is available to the Commission through the reports of the Registrar of Friendly Societies. Another observation I wish to make has reference to the age of miners. Ten years ago there were aid men working in the mines, while now there are very few. 7. The average duration of life is diminishing, you think?— Undoubtedly. The nature of the work is more injurious, and therefore old men cannot stand it. 8. Do you think they are forced out by competition or by disease? —I take it that the effects of mining are such that their health is reduced, so that after a certain number of years they are no longer capable of holding their own in the competition. 9. Is working on the night shift more conducive to accidents than working on the day shift?— The accidents point to the fact that a man is not his usual self when working on night shift. His food does not agree with him the same, and he does not get as much sleep. His vitality is much lower, and it is therefore reasonable to suppose that there is a greater chance of accident. A man is more likely to make a mistake. Then, there is one point I would like to make in regard to the men engaged on my own work—--that of engine-drivers. I have had as much as five years in succession working seven shifts a week, arid at the end of the year I would take a fortnight's holiday. I consider that an engine-driver is at a great disadvantage in that his vitality becomes run down and he gets no holidays, not even the Sundays which are so necessary for every one

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of us. I find that engine-drivers are not healthy, and after years of the occupation, particularly working seven shifts a week, they become more or less unhealthy. Engine-rooms should be well ventilated, and in some cases this matter has not been attended to; the same thing applies to stokeholes. A' so ' n underground engine-rooms there is room for a great deal of improvement —the places are damp and cold; and I think the men should be made fairly comfortable, so as to enable the driver to be always able to work at his best. Electric heaters should be installed in engine-rooms underground, as some form of heating-appliance is necessary for the comfort of the men. Suitable sanitary arrangements should be available near every engineroom, both underground and on the surface, particularly underground, where the men in charge of the engine cannot go away any distance, but must remain within call of the knockerline all the time. Drivers on winches, in winzes and shafts where there are men working below, should not be called upon to leave their positions at the engine. Where there are not men working below it is not particularly important. Further, the methods of signalling are open to investigation, and I think there should be some better means of communicating between the driver and those below than we have at the present time. 10. Have you had any experience of the use of telephones?—No; but if they were available I think the driver would be able to communicate with the men on each level, which would lessen the risk of accidents. With regard to the extra driver asked for when men are being raised and lowered I think it is absolutely necessary, unless we wait until there is an accident and ten or twelve men are killed when changing shifts. It seems to me, however, that an extra driver will be of no use unless he has some control over the engine apart from the ordinary driver, but I think he could easily be given that control. Supposing I were standing behind the other driver, and anything happened to him, I could only control the engine by grasping the lever of which he has hold. I consider that this extra man should have charge of a single lever connecting with an automatic steam brake and a steam stop-valve, so that by one movement in a fraction of a second the steam could be shut off and the brakes applied immediately by the spare man, because there is very little chance of his being able to do anj'thing with the ordinary workingappliances which are controlled by the other man. Then, I think an improvement ought to be made in connection with the protection of gauge-glasses on boilers. They should be surrounded with a strong guard. This is not a new idea, for they have them in many places. I also wish to say that compressed air is injurious to health. Its manufacture must have a tendency to alter its composition, because it has to be compressed under a very high temperature, and is thus robbed of its moisture. It comes into contact with the various oils that are used, and also with the packing in the joints, and I take it that it is far from suitable or conducive to good health, but rather the reverse. And, seeing that the air is to be breathed by men underground, I think greater care should be taken to secure good air at the intake of the compressors. Sometimes the air is taken from inside the engine-room, where injurious ingredients can get into it. The greatest risk is from the boilers, and the intake air should never be allowed to come into contact with the clinker taken out as the fires are cleaned. The intake should be some distance away from the engine-room. I wish to make one point regarding the danger to be feared from dust when men are working in rises with rock-drills. It seems to me that if sufficient encouragement were given an invention could be brought out in rock-drills supplying a jet of water from within the drill itself. I am told that a drill of this description was brought out, but as it did not cut well its use was discontinued. I think it would be a good idea to experiment with a view to providing an attachment on a drill whereby the water could come from within the drill itself. I place this point before the Commission as one worthy of research, seeing the great amount of danger which results from dust. 11. Mr. Doivgray.'] Wliat is your opinion in regard to a uniform code of signals?—lt is absolutely necessary, because then, when a man once became conversant with that code, whichever mine he went to he would be conversant with them. 12. So that you think that a uniform code of signals should be provided in the Act?— Yes, I do. Joseph Murray sworn and examined. (No. 43.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —A miner. 2. Have you any certificates? —No. 3. How long have you been mining?— Four or five years, off and on, here and on the West Coast. 4. Upon what matters do you wish to address the Commission ?—I wish to speak on the subject of prevention of accidents. I consider that stopes should be no higher than, say, 8 ft., so that a man could easily work down with a pick all the loose stone. I consider also that there should be a proper travelling-way up into these stopes, sufficient to let men take steel up and down when working machines. There should be windlasses overhead to haul up the steel and timber. In No. 13 in the Talisman you have to take your steel for your machines up these small travellingways; there is no place to haul it up, and it simply has to be passed up from man to man. The top man cannot reach the top of the travelling-way, and he therefore stacks the steel in it, and leaves a small opening for the man to come through. I consider that system is very dangerous, for if the steel falls it will probably sweep all those men dowm the travelling-way. I would suggest that these travelling-ways should be fitted with windlasses overhead for hauling steel and timber required in a stope. Ihe firing of shots also comes under the heading of accidents, and I think that in all stopes holes should be fired by hand, and not more than five at one time. Further, it is my opinion that after firing miners should not go back until half an hour has elapsed. In all rises, winzes, shafts, and dead-ends the use of the electric battery would prevent accidents. I would also suggest that the companies should provide a sufficient quantity of wooden tamping-bars on each level. I was working in the Talisman up till about seven weeks

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ago, and have been in the Crown Mine since then. We found one copper bar there, but there is no such thing as a copper pricker. The copper bar was too heavy, because, in the event of a plug getting stuck down a hole, a man is apt to strike it too heavy a blow; therefore I think wooden bars ought to be used. For tamping nothing should be used but clay or water. The practice of tamping holes with paper, rags, and bags is detrimental to the men's health. In the Talisman I have had to cut up old bags which have contained lime, and when used as tamping it almost smothers you in the stope. Further, I would suggest the appointment of a man on each shift on each level as what is known as a " powder-monkey," to have control over the explosives, to hand out all explosives for use by miners, to get all fuses ready, to put caps on, and take the required amount of explosives to the different places. He should have a book, and insert therein a record of all misfire holes and the exact amount of ammunition that is used. If this were done the number of accidents from misfires would be greatly reduced, because I know from experience in the Talisman Mine on three different occasions I have found jelly* in the face. In fact, my mate one night was picking away in a big stope and picked into a plug of gelignite, which he showed me on the end of his pick. I reported the incident to the man in charge, telling him that the place was unsafe. He made inquiries, and the next morning he told me that the shift following us had not fired at all, though the day shift had done so. He could not, however, find out who was responsible. My reason for suggesting the " powder-monkey " is to prevent that sort of thing happening. He would know whether there was any misfires in any particular stope. We could consult the book when we went on shift before going up into the stope. 5. It should be written up at every change of shift? —Yes. I might mention that it is quite easy to do this; it is done on the West Coast, and works very well indeed. I also consider that the night shift has a great deal to do with accidents. In my own experience previous to coming here I worked only on two shifts —day and afternoon—and immediately after starting here on night shift I found it interfered with my health. It was impossible for me to sleep. I was staying in a boardinghouse and could get no sleep, the consequence being that I frequently went to sleep at crib-time. I think that the size of the trucks is responsible for a lot of accidents on the travelling-roads. In the Crown Mine a man has to push a truck bigger than a dray —in fact, at any rate, it holds more. It is called a "ton" truck. In my opinion no truck should carry more than half a ton. Even with half-ton trucks it takes three of us all we can possibly do to push them. 6. Are the roads uphill?— Yes, and on a curve. Of course, we could fix the road, but on contract system we have not troubled about that. 7. Who has to keep the roads in repair?— The contractor. 8. Who regulates the size of the trucks? —The company. I also consider that the companies should provide first-aid appliances underground on each level, and that in the event of a serious accident the doctor should not remain on the surface, but go below, and be paid by the companies. The doctor should supervise the sufferer's removal to the surface, because there is a complete change of air, and being brought to the surface might give him a shock and so do him harm. 9. Apart from the injury likely to be caused by being removed without first aid being rendered? —Yes; and I contend that the doctor should be the first man to render first aid below. By keeping first-aid appliances and bandages underground blood-poisoning would frequently be prevented. 10. Are the appliances kept on the surface? —I do not know. 11. There has been a suggestion that to keep them beknv would be injurious to the appliances, and that if they were kept on the surface it would take only ten minutes more to procure them? — I think they should be kept below on the levels within reach of the miners. On the West Coast you have to come to the surface. 12. But to have them in stock on the surface, so that they could be sent down and not become impaired by the dampness by being kept below? —There could be a place made below to prevent anything getting damp. Another matter is that lights should be provided by the companies where it is impossible to carry a naked light. I had an experience of that matter in the Talisman Mine. If you go down to No. 13 there are no lights, and I have seen as many as twelve or fourteen men on the ladders at one time. In consequence of its being dark the men walk on one another's hands, and a man drops his billy, which probably strikes a man below. It is impossible to carry a light there. I consider that bracemen and chambermen should not work at any other occupation, otherwise it is liable to cause accidents. In the Talisman, when miners are entering a cage, I have never seen such a man as a chamberman or braceman. I have seen a part-shift boss and part-shift braceman, who gives a nod to the engine-driver without using the knocker-line. At the bottom one of the men has to use the knocker-line to send the cage back to the surface. I have known a case, when the men were lowered half-way down in a cage, when the knocker-line rung one to the engine-driver, who stopped the cage suddenly. No one on the surface understood what was wrong, and the braceman called down to tell tile men to pull the knocker-line. The men refused to do so; it was pulled from the bottom of the shaft, and the cage descended. The braceman told the men afterwards that they were supposed to pull the knockerline. I remember one incident in the Talisman which would not have occurred if there had been a chamberman at each level. On one occasion we were told that there was water in the bottom of the shaft, but, not knowing how much, six of us entered the cage to go down. The braceman made it his business to> be on the surface. We were lowered very slowly, and when we reached the bottom we found ourselves waist deep in water. When getting out of the cage we had to put our heads down, and our faces touched the water. Then we had to wade 100 ft, in it. Ido not think any chamberman would stand there up to his waist in water. As to accidents with the

* A common term amongst miners for gelignite.

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trucks, I consider the drive should be made larger, so that there would be plenty of room for a truck in motion to pass any one. There have been cases where men have been jammed. As to sanitation, I consider proper pans should be placed on each level and in the proper position. They should be off the ground, and should be cleaned out once at least in every twenty-four hours. The places should have wooden floors. In the particular mine where I am working now there are no sanitary arrangements at all. It lies with the contractors to take the pans below. The stopes are the only places where they are used. In some other parts of the mine the stench would knock you down. We were given orders to take the pans below, and my mate asked who was to empty them, and he was told that he must do so himself. I also know cases where the pans are only 7 ft. or 8 ft. from the places where the men have their crib, and sometimes these pans are left half full for months. Even the bosses tell you that they do not know who is to remove them when you ask if they be shifted. I also consider that a proper place should be provided below for men to have their crib in, and that a box be arranged for the waste papei and waste crib, to be cleaned out twice a week. 13. You say that you have had some experience on the West Coast : are the sanitary arrangements, where provided, regularly used by the miners? —I do not think it is right for me, at this distance, to say anything in regard to them. 14. It has been suggested that the miners have destroyed the pans?—l would not doubt that the pans have been destroyed in this ground by being buried in the stopes, but I have never known the miners destroy them on the West Coast. Another matter 1 wish to speak on is that of baths. Hot and cold baths should be provided, and basins to wash in. Many a time a man comes off shift with a cut in his hand, and if it is left without being washed blood-poisoning will result. Then, again, the water we use for drinking purposes should be improved. Many of the miners suffer from boils, myself included, and I put it down to the water we drink. I think that good drinking-water should be provided on each level, and should be brought from the surface, and not from any place in the mine, such as is the case at No. 13 in the Talisman. lam in favour of a second engine-driver being appointed, in case of an accident happening to the man in charge. There is no doubt that accidents have occurred which would have been prevented if there had been a second engine-driver. There was a case at the Energetic Mine at Reefton, when a braceman was killed, when taking a water-tank below after baling out after the night shift. 'Ilie driver was there, and after lowering the cage to the level for these men to push the tank off he started again and went up, with the result that one man was smashed to atoms and the other was lucky to escape. I think if an assistant driver had been there the accident would not have occurred. I think the suggestion is a good one. 15. Was not that accident the outcome of an inexperienced man being at the engine rather than an accident to the engine-driver?— That is so. I would suggest that there be some alteration in the law: Under the present Act a man has to practise a certain time hauling mullock prior to receiving his ticket. That should be altered. I would also add that telephones should be installed at each level to communicate with the office on the surface in the event of an accident or for any other cause. As regards firing shots I consider that, instead of the present system of tiring at any time and anyhow, all firing should be done at crib-time or at knocking-off time. At present you have to breathe the smoke, whereas if this proposal were given effect to it would prevent the men having to do that. I consider that water should be used in all holes with a rock-drill. 16. Mr. Dowgray.] In connection with travelling-ways, can you suggest a suitable width for travelling-ways ? —Yes, I would like to see a system of double passes instead of single passes— say, 6 ft. by 3 ft. in the clear, and centred up 8 ft. by 2 ft. A man could travel up those, and the stone could go down the other side. I would like to see bigger passes, which would make it easier to get a man out of the stope in case of accident. They should be 4 ft. by 4 ft. in the places where there are any number of men working. 17. If all ladderways were made 4 ft. by 4 ft. would that meet the case Yes. 18. Would you be in favour of the Act being amended so as to compel the companies to have these places lighted by electricity or covered lamp?— Yes; it should be compulsory for them to provide lights in travelling-ways where it is impossible to carry a naked light. 19. In regard to sprays for rock-drills, would you be in favour of compelling the men to use the sprays?— Yes, they should be compelled to use the water when boring any hole with a machine. 20. Would you be in favour of preventing a man from going back to an unexploded charge in less than half an hour?— There is no doubt that it would be very hard to prevent him going back under the contract system, but not on wages. 21. Would you be prepared to suggest that a penalty be provided for a man going back under half an hour?—l would go this far : I would put the man out of the mine altogether if he went back in less than half an hour. 22. It would be much more effective to appeal to a man's pocket than to his brains. Do you not think a fine would appeal to him better ?—No; I would send him Out of the mine. 23. Suppose you provided a penalty of £10 for each offence might work, but I have my doubts about it. I would agree to your suggestion if I thought it were workable. 24. Is this system of shot-firing of which you speak in vogue in Reefton in the Consolidated and pretty well all the other mines, I think, the " powder-monkey " is in vogue. 25. Mr. Parry.] What is your idea of the system of district ?-"—I like the idea, but 1 think the man should be an expert with the should do nothing else. 26. But the idea is for the district shot-firers to load and fire all holes, and to have all the handling of dynamite? —I do not think it would work. You would find that it was impossible to control the ammunition and charge and fire all the holes; it is too much to expect one man to do.

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27. Do you not think it would minimize the risk of accidents if only one man was held responsible for the loading and firing?---Yes, I do. 28. But you do not think it would be workable?—l would like to see the system, but I think the man with the battery should only have to connect his cable. I think that the " powdermonkey " should handle the fracture. 29. Have you had any experience of working in hot places?— Yes, I have worked in 82°, when the Inspector of Mines and the workmen's inspector were there. It was a very dry place in a dead-end. 30. And did it have any effect upon you?— Yes, it did. I used to get giddy, and I felt my heart beating quicker. Also, one feels as though one wants to lie down rather than work. 31. What is your opinion of a standard temperature being fixed? —Judging from that experience, if the temperature was 82° there, then I would make 70° the maximum for an eighthour place. 32. And when it becomes over 70°? —It should be a six-hour shift. 33. Have you worked in any wet, places where you have made use of oilers? —No, except when repairing the shaft. 34. Did you use oilers there?— Yes. 35. Are they convenient to work in?—No; you are hot underneath them and cold outside. A man perspires a lot, and you are saturated to the skin. 36. What do you think should be done when it is necessary to wear an oiler?—l consider that you should reduce the hours of work. 37. Do you think a man would take advantage of that simply to get a reduction of hours? —No. 38. What is your opinion about the system of bulling holes : do you think it is detrimental to a man's health? —-Yes. 39. Mr. Heed,] With regard to the accident to Reginald Watts at the Energetic Mine to which you referred, was not Clarkin, the engine-driver, to blame? —That is so. 40. Was not the accident due to the winder raising the cage when they were getting the tanli off?— Well, it came out in evidence that the cage was at the level, and they were getting out of it to remove the tank when Plummer lifted the cage another 50 ft. 41. The driver made the mistake of raising instead of lowering it?—He made a mistake by shifting it at all. 42. Was the certificated driver standing by at the time? —He was there, but he had no control over the engine. lam not sure if Plummer was a certificated driver. 43. The important point is that the two men killed Watts between them, and that one of them was a certificated man?— That is so, but he had no control over the engine. 44. What is the difference between that engine and an ordinary engine? —My contention is that the man standing by should have control over the steam in the event of the other man making a mistake. 45. Does that accident not prove that two men cannot do any better than one? —I think if Clarkin had had control he would have stopped the engine when he saw what he was doing. Immediately Plummer lifted the cage the other man reversed the engine and cut the man up worse. 46. Is that not an argument against having two men at the engine?—Clarkin should have had power to stop the engine altogether. 47. But would not Clarkin have been better to have been there by himself? —Yes, in that particular ease. 48. Can you tell me of a case where a driver has taken a fit when in charge of his engine?— No. 49. Now, in this case where Watts was killed, there were two drivers : would you recommend two drivers or one driver? —Two drivers; but Plummer was no driver. 50. Was he winding?—He had not passed for a ticket. He was a very poor driver. Ticket or no ticket, he ought to have lost his position. 51. Should not Clavkin have taken charge of the engine?—lt was impossible if the other man had hold of the levers. 52. Supposing a man is taken ill with his hands on the levers, how could the second man control it ?—lf he had control over the steam. 53. He did not do it in this instance? —But there was no such thing provided in that machinery. 54. So you would provide an alteration in the winding-engine generally?—So that the assistant engine-driver should have complete control over the steam or air separate from the driver. 55. The Chairman.] Do you know why he raised the cage : was it that he misunderstood the signal, or was the signal ever given I —There was no signal, because both the braceman and the chamberman were in the cage with the tank. Previous to going down they called out " All right," and there were no signals given at all. These men went to get out at the level. 56. Was there any misunderstanding? —There was a misunderstanding about Plummer shifting the cage. 57. It was not a mistaken signal?—l do not think there was any mistake about a signal from what I gathered. 58. Mr. Parry.] Was the man at the handle a certificated man? —No. The man at the lever was getting practice. If the other man had been at the handle it would not have happened. 59. You suggest two certificated men should be there? —Yes. 60. The Chairm-an.] Can you say how long the cage was stationary before he wanted it up? —No, I cannot tell you. It is some time ago now, and I only know what I remember reading of the case, but I think it was only a few minutes, as the second man had not got out of the tank.

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61. So far as you know these men who were at the engine lifted the cage without either signal or sufficient reason? —He mistook the signal, which was to lower, and he lifted. 62. So that, practically, it was a mistaken signal by an inexperienced driver? —Yes. 63. Mr. Molineaux.~\ You consider that there should be two certificated drivers when changing shifts?—l do. 64. And you also consider that all winding-engines should be so altered so that both men should have complete control at the same time? —Yes, the driver should work the levers and the cage, and the assistant driver should have control over him, so that in the event of anything happening to the driver the assistant could shut off steam and, if necessary, apply an automatic brake. 65. You thjnk there should be appliances so that two men would have complete control over the engine at the same time?— Yes. I consider that the driver should control the shutting-off of the steam, and, if necessary, also apply an automatic brake. Daniel John O'Neill sworn and examined. (No. 44.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —A miner. 2. Do you hold any certificates of any kind? —No. 3. On what matters do you wish to address the Commission'! —Accidents, hot places, and sanitation. Stopes should not be more than 8 ft. high, so that a man can work down the ground with a bar. Travelling-ways should not be less than 4 ft., to enable timber and steel to be got into the stopes, as it is very dangerous in the present small places. A man often requires a stick, and it is too hard to go down to get it up. Then it is left untimbered, and the next shift meets with an accident. I also consider that all shots in winzes, rises, shafts, and drives should be fired by electric battery. In stopes not more than five holes to be fired at a time. The battery should not be used in a stojie, because it endangers the walls by the concussion. If fourteen or fifteen holes are fired at once it makes the ground loose. Also, the company should provide a sufficient quantitj' of tamping-bars. One accident occurred in the Talisman Mine two years ago by a man using a copper tamping-bar. A supply of wooden bars should be provided at each level. This man was tamping a hole in a rise when the plug got jammed and it went off; it was not a very serious one, but it would have been if he had 1 had more gelignite in the hole. I also consider that the night shift has a bad effect on a man's health. The soft country works a great deal more at night than in any other shift. I do not know why, but it is so. . 4. Is it not that you notice it more because there is less noise? —I have seen the ground in a soft country falling more on night shift than on any other shift. I also consider that trucks should not be more than half a ton, and drives should be made so as to give enough clearance for men to pass the trucks while they are in motion. One of the men has been crushed by trucks since Christmas, but not badly hurt. If it had been a few inches smaller he would have had his chest crushed in. I also want to say that the doctors should go below whenever serious accidents occur, as the shock to a man being brought from a hot place to the surface without proper care is dangerous to him. Further, all first-aid appliances should be left in a box in a magazine or some other place underground for use. 5. Is the doctor employed by the company? —I do not know. 6. How would you suggest the doctor be compelled to go below? —That the company should pay him to do so in all cases of serious accidents. 7. How would you make it compulsory except by contract with the doctor?— When the company were applying for a medical man the friendly society and the company could explain to him that it would be necessary for him to go underground in case of serious accident. The braceman and chamberman should not be employed at any other occupation but at the brace and chamber. I also consider that the depth of stoping-blocks should not be more than 100 ft., because if a block is, say, 200 ft. through, it is far more dangerous to put the rise through to the next level than it would be to put it through 100 ft. It is difficult to get men to go and work in these rises more than 100 ft.; it is almost impossible to get men to work in them, because the ventilation is not so good. I also consider the rises should not be more than 80 ft. apart. 8. With what object?—lt would give better ventilation. When a man is working, say, with the rises 200 ft. or 300 ft. apart in a dead-end, he gets very bad air. I also consider that a standard temperature should be fixed at 75° dry and 70° wet. 9. Do you understand the difference between the wet and the dry bulb?—l understand this much : that where it was 80° wet bulb I have found,it very difficult to work at shovelling. 10. Have you seen the temperature taken with the wet bulb?—No; but I have.known miners ask the Inspector, and he has told them it was 79°, 80°, and 81°. 11. Has he given the wet-bulb temperature? —No, I think it was 80° dry. 12. So that you have had no experience of hot places where the wet-bulb temperature was taken? —No. I want to say, in regard to ventilation, that I think the best means possible should be used to get the bad air out of dead-ends. 13. You are not an authority as to the best method? —No. In regard to tamping I consider that only clay and water tamping should be used. It should also be compulsory on the men to use the spray in machine holes. I also say that no man should be allowed to return to the face before half an hour after firing shots. 14. Does it make any difference how many shots you fire?— Well, the most I have seen is about ten, but, of course, that is not a round of machine holes. You are not able to sleep for the effect of the fumes. I also consider that proper sanitary pans should be provided in each level, and cleaned out by the company at least once in every twenty-four hours. This is not done here. The bosses here tell you. to empty them yourself, but most of the men refuse to do so. I also want to see crib-boxes installed and cleaned out by the company.

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15. And what about their use by the miners? I have seen scraps scattered all over the place; the miners do not use them even when they are provided?—l have never seen crib-boxes. It should be made compulsory on the men to use the crib-boxes. The men should be protected against themselves : they should be made to use them. I also consider that hot and cold water should be installed in the change-houses, and that one bath be provided for every ten men, and one basin for every five men. 16. And, generally, do you think that where it is made compulsory on the companies to provide them it should also be compulsory on the men to use them? —The men here go into the change-houses. I have seen very few men going home to change. Sometimes, however, when a man goes in to change, he finds he has no clothes to wear —somebody else has taken them. Then the drying arrangements are bad, and the clothes get burnt. lam also in favour of a drinkingreceptacle being placed in each level, and water supplied from the surface, with a proper tank with an airtight lid on it. I would also like to ask the Commission to take steps to have the subject of ankylostomiasis investigated by the Government. Further, I think that all engines should be fitted with an automatic brake, or that an assistant engine-driver be appointed. 17. That is, on the lines suggested by Mr. Leach? —Yes. I also consider that there should be a telephone installed, in each level, so as to be in communication with the driver in case of accident or when men require, a cage when the braceman was not there. Also, I would recommend that the telephone be connected with the doctor's house in case of accident. 18. Mr. Parry.] Do you think it would cost very much more to supply the mine with drinking-water from the town supply? —I have no idea of the expense. There is plenty of water apart from the town supply. 19. Mr. Fletcher.] Have you a doctor resident here?— Yes. 20. By whom is he employed to look after the men at the mine? —I do not know who employs him. 21. Have you a medical association here? —No, none that I know of. 22. Supposing that there were a medical association, and the owners subsidized it to assist the miners to get a good doctor, would the workmen be agreeable for some of the companies' officials to be represented on the committee? —I am not in a position to say what the men would be prepared to do. Frederick Challis sworn and examined. (No. 45.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. How long have you been mining? —'Seventeen years. 3. Have you any certificates? —No. 4. Where have you gained your experience?—At Thames and Ohinemuri. 5. Upon what matters do you wish to address the Commission? —I might state that I agree generally with everything which has been said by previous witnesses, and I simply wish to enlarge upon one or two matters. 6. What are the particular points which you wish to deal with? —First of all, in regard to the height of stopes, I am of opinion that they should not be more than 10 ft. from the solid, which would leave about 8 ft. of material to work upon, and that all stopes should be filled instead of using timber for taking out the material. Also, all shots in rises, winzes, shafts where rockdrills are used, and drives should be fired by electricity, and shots in stopes should be fired by hand. 7. That is a recommendation? —Yes, that should be made compulsory, and that any rise which exceeds 50 ft. should be fired by the electric battery. There should be an experienced man to operate these batteries and to fire the charges. As regards the night shift I think it should be abolished altogether, because a man who goes to work on night shift is not physically fit. I think the officials of the company will agree with me that such men are not fit to do their work. After they have done their work they cannot get their sleep or eat their food. All stoping-blocks should be not more than 100 ft. apart —that is, from level to level—because where there is a greater distance than that the men have trouble in getting a sufficient quantity of air into where they are working. At the present time we have here stoping-blocks which run into 200 ft., and the men in them have a poor chance of getting sufficient ventilation before their rises are through. Further, there are very few men who care to work these long rises, on account of not having sufficient air. There should'also be assisted ventilation in all dead-ends. A proper receptacle for holding water for drinking purposes in each level, with a pannikin or some other utensil, should be provided. 8. Mr. Parry.] In regard to winze-sinking, what is your opinion as to the necessity, when a winze becomes over a certain depth, for steam winches to be installed with a view to minimizing the risk of accident ?—Air winches or steam winches should be put in these winzes to get the material out, and for the man also. 9. Is there not a special air-winch constructed for that purpose?—l think so. 10. Mr. Moline,aux.] Have you had any experience of firing with electricity?— Yes, a little. 11. Do you think it is safer than ordinary fuse in certain places?— Yes, I would make it compulsory to use it in certain places. We often have as many as thirty or forty holes to fire, and it means that a man has to go backwards and forwards into the fumes, whereas if electricity were used that difficulty would be overcome by firing the whole place out at once. 12. Are not misfires one of the greatest dangers in connection with explosives?— They are. 13. How can you tell in a round of holes fired by the fuse if you have had a misfire? —The man can tell by counting his holes; he knows how many there are. 14. So that with the ordinary fuse he can tell? —But with the electricity the danger would be minimized. There would be no fire attached to the charge once the electricity was disconnected. There would be no more danger except that the explosive would be there,

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15. Is that not a very considerable danger? —1 think there is the same danger with the fuse. 16. If you were going back into a stope where you knew there was a misfire you would be more careful ? —Undoubtedly. 17. You have not that advantage if electricity is used?—As a rule, when working in a stope or rise, a man generally looks to see if there are any misholes, but in a shaft lie cannot find out, because as a rule the charge is buried. 18. In a stope the collar of your hole may be cut away, but the charge may remain inside? — Yes, that happens very often, but still a man can generally detect the presence of the charge. 19. In what way?— When the collar is blown out it leaves a vent and shows where the hole was. Then you can use your water to wash out the place and find the charge if it is there. 20. In spite of the difficulty of discovering whether there has been a misfire you still consider electricity the safer? —Yes, I think the majority of accidents have happened through firing by hand, where the men have not sufficient time to get away from their charges. 21. You object to rises being 200 ft. ?—Yes. 22. Are not winzes generally put down to meet these rises?— Well, in many cases they are, but I think that if a rise can be carried through without sinking at all they generally do it. 23. I understood you to say that your objection to these high rises was that the}- are not adequately ventilated ? —That is so. There is not sufficient ventilation apart from the compressed air with the machines, and that is not good for a man. 24. Then it is actually a question of ventilation?— Yes. Where the man can get sufficient air it is right enough for him to work. 25. What would you consider sufficient air?—l am not capable of dealing with that point, but when a candle will not burn it is time to get away. 26. Have you ever worked under those conditions? —I have worked under conditions which went very close to putting the light out. 27. That is not a common occurrence?— Rather a common occurrence, I should say. 28. In the mine you are working in at the present time? —I believe so. I have not had the doubtful pleasure of working in very many rises, but my experience has not been too good. 29. You consider that 10 ft. should be the standard height for stopes?—l mean from the solid, which would mean about 8 ft. of material to work. 30. Would you make that compulsory? —Yes, because it would give a man a better chance of testing the back of his stope. He would bo able to work down all the loose stuff. 31. What do you consider should be the penalty for breaking that rule?—A man should be put out of the mine for doing so. 32. Who are the worst offenders in this matter, the contractors or the working-men? —Well, I think they are all blamable. 33. Have you considered the other alternative —namely, that the height of a stope be decided by the Inspector of Mines? —Well, it would be a good thing for the Inspector to work on this rule. At the present time he has no standard height. If the men knew it was the law I do not think they would infringe it. They may do so in the Inspector's absence, but I doubt it. 34. You mean to say that you think the Inspector is not a good judge as to whether the ground is safe or not? —I think the miner best understands the safety of the ground. It stands to reason that the man who works the place is the man who should know it best. 35. Even though the man may have been working only for a few months? —I meant an experienced miner. 36. What proportion of the men are experienced miners?—l am not prepared to say. 37. Are half of them experienced? —I should say so. 38. You would not say that a greater percentage than that are experienced?—l would not like to say one way or the other. 39. Mr. Reed.] Those miners who are not experienced would be trusting to luck? —Well, as a rule, an inexperienced man is generally put with a man who knows something. 40. Always?—l do not know. 41. Then if two inexperienced men get together? —I do not know. 42. Would it not be better to trust to the Inspector than to work on your rule? —Of course, I am not trying to run down the abilities of the Inspector. When I made the statement that a man should know his place best I meant an experienced miner; but when you put it that two inexperienced men may be working together I do not know how to get over the difficulty. 43. You know No. 13 level in the Talisman : there is a pipe goes down there with drinkingwater :is that good water?—-We are led to believe so. My experience in No. 13 level only covers about two months; but as the result of either the temperature or the water I came out in a mass of boils and pimples. 44. Did the water do that?—l believe so. 45. Now, you recommended an open receptacle for the water : would that not also become warm? —I think a tap would be the best. 46. As to the open receptacle, what is to stop bacteria, from getting in ?—That suggestion was an oversight on my part. 47. If you had said a tank covered that would have been sound? —Yes. 48. And as to the pannikin, is it wise to use one? —No. 49. A closed pipe carrying fresh water is better than a receptacle of any kind? —Would you suggest that every one should drink at a tap ? 50. But you do not put your mouth to the tap?— The average man does, I think. 51. Well, he ought to have more sense? —I think so, too. 52. Mr. Parry.] As to your suggestion of a standard height for stopes, would it not tend to protect the inexperienced man?—l think it would. 53. In regard to the high blocks, is not the great distance timber has to be hauled-the cause of men doing without timber? —Yes, I think in many cases men do without timber because it has to be hauled so far,

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Sehby Marshall sworn and examined. (No. 46.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. I am also chairman of the Karangahake Miners' Union. 2. Which mine are you working in?— The Talisman. 3. How many years' mining experience have you had?— Twenty-six. 4. Where was it gained?—ln Ohinemuri, Te Aroha, and Australia. 5. On what matters do you wish to address the Commission? The views of the miners have been put fairly fully by the previous witnesses, and unless you have something to add it will have the same effect if you merely corroborate their statements? —Yes, I am prepared to corroborate them. I wish to say also, however, that the proposals made to the Commission were discussed by the miners' union and decided upon at a meeting of the union. They are as follows : " Accidents : Height of stopes to be not more than 10 ft. from the solid. Travellingways to be not less than 4 ft. by 4 ft. All rises, winzes, shafts, and drives to be fired by electric battery; and stopes to be fired by hand, not more than five holes to be fired at one time. Companies to supply sufficient quantity of wooden timping-bars. That men be appointed to take charge of all explosives, and all misholes to be reported to these persons on each level. Night shift : That night shift be abolished, on account of ground being more dangerous and also physical conditions. Trucks : Not more than half-ton trucks to be used in any mine, and drives to be made to give clearance for men to pass while trucks in motion. First aid and doctor : That company provide doctor to visit mine to give first aid to men meeting with serious accidents underground. Lights : Company to provide lights in mines where it is impossible to carry naked light. Bracemen and chambermen : Not to be employed in any other occupation. Ventilation : Depth of stoping-blocks not to be move than 100 ft. Temperature: That standard be fb:ed at 75° dry and 70° wet. In all dead-ends assisted ventilation be used. Miners' complaint : That only clay and water be used for tamping, and it be compulsory for men to use sprays in all dry holes. That men be not allowed to return to face less than half an hour after firing (that refers to firing machine holes and not hand holes). Sanitation : That proper sanitary pans be provided at each level, and cleaned by the company at least once in every twenty-four hours. Waste crib-boxes to be installed and kept clean by the company. Change-houses : That hot and cold water be installed with baths, and that one bath be supplied to every ten men on a shift, and one basin to every five. Drinking-water to be provided at each level. All engines to be fitted with automatic brakes, and, if not, an assistant driver to be in attendance when winding men. Telephones to be installed in case of accidents in all levels in mines." 6. How many miners have you in your union? —In our branch we have 42,5 members. 7. How many were present at that meeting? —About eighty; the hall was full. 8. Was the resolution unanimously agreed to?— Yes, there was not a dissentient voice. 9. Were the proposals discussed? —Yes, it took till nearly 12 o'clock to finish the business. 10. And you think these are the views of the miners in the field? —Yes, I do. 11. Mr. Parry. ,] As a man who has had a good deal of experience in this district, what do you think is the cause of the major portion of the accidents? —There is no doubt that the contract system is responsible for most of them. 12. Why?— Because the payment depends upon the amount of quartz a man gets out, and if he stops to put in timber it reduces the quantity of quartz got out. 13. Then the men are careless when working under the contract system? —Yes, undoubtedly. Matthew Paul sworn and examined. (No. 47.) 1. Mr. Parry.] Do you think it would minimize accidents a good deal if the men had winches installed in winzes over a certain depth?—l rather think it would be a considerable saving to the men. I have a good deal of sympathy with the men working in deep winzes, and I think if airwinches were provided it would tend to save the workmen. 2. Mr. Eeed.] It has been stated that the night shift is responsible for more accidents than the day shift. Now, I have before me your annual report to the Government for the last year, which contains a list of accidents in your district. I will quote you the names of the men injured, and will ask you to tell the Commission, with particulars, when accidents happened. F. Whyte and J. O'Malley were killed by falling down the pumping-compartment of the No. 4 shaft at the Waihi Mine, day shift. George Henesy was killed in the morning at the Waihi Company's Victoria mill. Charles Cavanagh died from injuries received by falling down No. 6 shaft at the Waihi Mine?—l do not know when that accident occurred, but I think it was in the evening time. •'5. Matthew Berryman was killed by falling out of a cage in the Waihi No. 2 shaft?— Yes, that was when coming up in the day shift. 4. J. C. Chapman was caught in the machinery at the Waihi mill? —I do nut know, but I think that was in the day shift. 5. When did the accidents to Thomson and Dyer happen?—On the day shift. 6. The accident to Lucas? —I do not know which shift that was on. 7. The accident to Walker occurred on which shift? —Day shift. 8. Proban's accident?— Day shift. 9. Mark's accident? —Day shift. 10. Curries accident? —Day shift. 11. Gribble's accident? —I do not know which shift. 12. Mclntyre's accident? —I am not able to say which shift it occurred on. 13. McClymont's accident? —Afternoon shift. 14. Brown's accident? —Afternoon shift.

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[M. PAUL.

15. Does not that positively refute the statement that the majority of accidents happen in the night shift? —I say the majority of them in 1910 occurred in the day shift. 16. Is that a correct statement? —Yes. 17. None of them occurred on the night shift?— No. 18. Is the statement true or untrue that the majority occur on the night shift? —It is untrue so far as my experience goes. 19. Mr. Parry.] Coming to 1911, what fatal accidents have taken place in 1911? —In my district there have been three. 20. At what time did they occur?— The accident in the Grand Junction to Anderson occurred between 8 and 11 o'clock on the day shift. 21. And the others? —The accident to James Samson was in the night shift in the Waihi Mine. 22. And the other one which happened to Bullock?—It was a blasting accident, and happened in the day shift. 23. Taking, now, the serious accidents for 1911? —I am not prepared to give that data without consulting my registers. 24. The accident to Moran was a serious one, which occurred in the 12 o'clock shift?—l could not say. 25. As regards the accidents in the night shifts, is it not a fact that the great number of the accidents in 1911 compares very unfavourably with the previous year, when you consider the number of men working on the night shift? —I cannot say without the records. 26. Is it not a fact there are not a quarter as many men on the night shift as there are on the day and afternoon shift? —That is so; most of the men are employed on the day shift. 27. So that that would account for the number of accidents on the day shifts as compared with those on the night shift? —1 do not know.

Auckland (Mayor's Room, Municipal Buildings), 4th September, 1911. Matthew Paul examined. 1. The Chairman.] You are Inspector of Mines for the Coromandel District? —Yes, the inspection of the mines at Coromandel is part of my duties. 2. You produce a list of the temperatures taken by you in the Coromandel mines?— Yes. [Exhibit No. 11 put in.] John Pickuuing Presoott sworn and examined. (No. 48.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —I am secretary of the Miners' Union at Coromandel. 2. Are you a miner by occupation?— Yes. 3. How many years' experience have you had? —Sixteen or seventeen. 4. Do you hold any certificates or any office in connection with the mine? —No. 5. Which mine are you working in?— The Hauraki Reefs. 6. How long have 3 r ou been there? —About two months in that mine. 7. Previous to that where were you working?—l have worked in all the mines in Coromandel. 8. Is your experience confined to Coromandel? —No; I have also been mining in New South Wales. 9. You are aware of the scope of our inquiries : have you any information to lay before the Commission, or any suggestions to offer, sa} r , as to ventilation? —Yes, I think that in most of the mines at Coromandel there is great need for improvement in the matter of ventilation. 10. What is the system of ventilation in vogue at Coromandel? —Well, in most cases where it is possible to procure natural ventilation that is done, but where they have to resort to mechanical means the methods are very crude. 11. What are they? —By forcing air in hj means of a water jet. I have seen furnaces resorted to, but not frequently. 12. Have you given the subject of ventilation any consideration at all with regard to devising some means? —No. 13. Well, from your working experience as a miner, have you anything to suggest on the subject?— Not more than that in all cases where it is possible to procure natural ventilation it should be done. 14. As regards accidents, have you anything to say to the Commission as to the cause or prevention of accidents?-—No. Fortunately, in Coromandel we are very free from accidents. I suppose there are less accidents on the Coromandel field than on any other field in New Zealand; but I think the stopes should not be taken above a certain' height, for I consider that high stopes are the cause of many accidents in mines. It should be possible for a man to sound the back of his stope to make certain of its condition. 18. Have you any opinion to offer as regards shot-firing, as to the use of fuse or electricity, and also whether shot-fireis should be appointed to fire all shots? —I think electricity should be used when more than six shots are to be fired at once. 16. Would you make that apply to all places?— More particularly in rises and winzes. I would not go so far as to say that it is necessary in all places. 17. Do you think the appointment of shot-firers would tend to minimize the number of accidents or facilitate working?— Well, speaking from my own experience, I believe in a man firing his own holes. He has a better idea of what is required in the matter of the quantity of explosives, and he should be responsible for the firing of the hole.

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18. How long do you say a man should remain out of a face in case of a misfire or hangfire? —It is very hard to say. Of course, we know that the Act provides three hours, but Ido not know that I have ever seen that time allowed. 19. What do you consider a fair time? — I do not think a man should go back under half an hour. If a shot does not explode in half an hour it will not go off at all; but I should insist upon the man who fires the hole attending to it until it has exploded. 20. Now, as to sanitary arrangements?— There is a great need for sanitary arrangements underground. At the present time nothing at all has been attempted in that respect, and I think it is absolutely necessary that some provision should be made. 21. Have you any bath-houses? —We have one bath-house at the Hauraki Mine where I am working, because we are working in a low level. Mr. Shepherd has installed a bath-house at Coromandel. 22. Is it used to any great extent? —Yes, I consider it is a blessing to the men. I think they should be compulsory in every mine, because it is of benefit to the health of the miners. 23. Have you had any experience in the taking, of temperatures?— No. 24. Have you seen temperatures taken?—l saw Mr. Shepherd take it once. 25. Have you had any experience of inconvenience from working in hot places—have you been affected by the high temperature?— Yes, 1 have had experience of hot places and bad air. There is one portion of the Hauraki Mine near the surface where the effect upon a man is very bad. Upon one occasion I was seized with vomiting while working there, and that I consider was the result of the excessive heat. 26. You do not know the temperature?—lt was considerably over 80°, I think. 27. How long ago?— About five years ago. They are not working •that portion of the mine now, but it is just as hot as it was then. 28. How would the average heat of the mine now compare with the temperature then?— There is no comparison. That was a very excessive temperature. 29. That is to say, that the temperature of the mine now is considerably less?— There is the same temperature in those levels, but the heat on the lower levels is not so great now. 30. Have you anything to say in regard to wet working-places?—l would like to see it clearly defined as to what constitutes a wet working-place. The present system is not altogether a good one. I do not think either the men or the manager should decide as to what is a wet workingplace. The present system is for the manager and the workmen's inspector to decide between themselves, and, though up to the present we have had no difficulty, 1 would like to see it clearly defined as to what is a wet working-place. In the event of the manager and the workmen's ins2>ector not being able to decide, it is necessary to send to Waihi to bring the Inspector of Mines to settle the matter. When we write to Waihi it is possible that the Inspector may not be able to visit the place for several days after the complaint was made, and during that time the men may have passed through the wet working-place, so that the Inspector does not see the place under the same conditions which prevailed when the complaint was made. It is possible for this sort of thing to occur frequently. 31. Have you any practical suggestion to make on the subject? —It appears to me that unless the water is coming down in a shower the miner is not entitled to any consideration at all. I maintain that if the water is only up to his knees it should be considered a wet place. Further, there seems to be no consideration for truckers at all who are continually working in water throughout the shift. 32. To what depth? —Well, it is very often up to his middle. 33. Is not that rather an exaggeration? —No, certainly not. The company on one occasion, on account of economy, was only employing one engine-driver, and they used to bale for eight hours, but the water was allowed to rise for the rest of the time. The men went down at 8 o'clock in the morning, and by the time the engine-driver started to haul it was 9 o'clock, so that by the time the men climbed down and landed in the chamber the water was up to their middle, and they were compelled to wade through it for 100 ft. Then they had to work in a dry place for eight hours in that condition. The chamber was in practically the same state when the men were coming off shift at 4 o'clock. These men were working under those conditions and received no consideration at all. 34. Yon would not call that a wet place—it is simply a matter of baling out the water from the chamber. What is your suggestion as to a wet place? —Well, I should say, if a man in working gets wet up to his knees", he should be given some consideration. 35. Where the water comes from underneath? —Yes. 36. And where it comes from overhead? —Well, if a man is wet through at crib-time he should be entitled to a six-hour shift. 37. In which of the levels in that particular mine do the men work up to their knees?—lt frequently, occurs in the lowest level, and also in the upper levels if the drains are not capable of carrying off the water. They have to walk through a considerable amount of water to get into their stopes. - ' , 38. Mr. Daivgray.] In regard to the truckmg-roads, do the truckers have to work over their boot-tops in water ?—I have known several of them have to do so. 39 Have you ever known the men to suffer from sore feet as the result?— Yes, I have often heard the men'complain of injury to their feet, and also as to kidney troubles from working in the water. . 40 Do they lose time through it? —Yes, T have done so on more occasions than one. 41 Is there no attempt made to drain the roads in your particular district? —Attempts are made, but Ido not think they are as successful as they should be. I consider the conditions could be improved.

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42. What is your opinion in connection mith bracemen and chamberraen being employed at other work ?—I do not think they should be otherwise employed at any time. Their duties are sufficient to occupy all their time. I think a braceman, before he is "allowed to work as such, should have some underground experience, and when appointed should be kept at that work alone. 43. He should have definite duties allotted to him? —Yes. 44. He should have some experience underground before being appointed. For what reason? —So that he would know the requirements of the miner, and be able to realize the danger of sending tools or timber down in the cages. He would know the danger that a miner is liable to in the event of anything giving way better than a man with no experience. 45. Have you ever known any accidents to occur through an incompetent braceman?—No; but I have seen some very miraculous escapes. 46. Do you think the knocker-line should be used by any person other than the one appointed for that particular duty?— No. The man in charge of the knocker-line should be always there to ring the men away, otherwise they would not have sufficient time to get into the cage. They should be in the cage before any attempt is made to ring them away. 47. What method have you of signalling? Does the engine-driver give a return signal to the braceman? —I could not say that. I have never paid much attention to it. 48. In connection with shot-firing, do yon think there should be a time stipulated within which men should be prevented from returning to faces after they have fired?— Well, there is a time stipulated already in the Mining Act. 49. But I mean, after the shot has exploded?— Well, I think that could be best determined by the nature of the place. Sometimes it might be an hour and a half before the place is fit for a man to go back again. 50. Mr. Parry.] You say that it would be better for a man to fire his own shots than for a shot-firer to be appointed for the purpose. Do you mean that with a view to ensuring the safety of the men? —What I meant to imply was that the man who had tile mishole should be the man to attend to it. 51. Do you not think it would minimize the risk of accident if the firing for one particular district were placed in one man's hands? —I do not think it would. Of course, I can only judge the matter from the places 1 have worked in. I do not know what the conditions are like in other districts where there are big mines such as the Waihi, but from my own experience I think the man who is working the face is the man who should do the blasting there. 52. What is your opinion as regards the appointment of an assistant engine-driver?— Well, I suppose it would be a very good thing to ensure safety in places where they are winding numbers of men, 53. What do you think the average size of ladderways should be? —I think that must be determined to a great extent by the nature or size of the lode being worked. 54. Do you think that by increasing the size of the ladderway you would tend to improve the ventilation? —Most decidedly. 55. You said you were free from accidents? —I believe we are freer from accidents, or at any rate as free, as any mining district in New Zealand. 56. What system do they work on at Coromandel? —The wages system. 57. What do you think is the cause of the accidents in Waihi and Karangahake?—They are caused by the rusli due to the contract system, and the height to which they carry their stopes. 58. The Chairman.] Have you had any experience in Waihi? —I worked under similar conditions in Opitonui, where the mode of working was the same as it is in Waihi. I am convinced that the contract system has a great deal to do with the number of accidents. 59. Mr. Parry.] How do you find the health of the miners in Coromandel? —Fairly good. No miner's health is too good. You can generally pick out a miner by his appearance. 60. Do you regard mining as a healthy occupation ? —No, by no means. 61. Mr. Cochrane.] With regard to the instance you gave us of men wading through water, was that a frequent occurrence or a case of emergency?—As far as I can make out it was a regular tiling for some time, when they were only winding water for one shift. 62 With regard to the period which must elapse before miners return to hangfires or misshots, do you suggest that the three-hour period should be reduced? —Well, I do not know. Perhaps it is a big thing for rue to recommend that an amendment be made in the Mining Act; but T do not know why it was made three hours, because if the hole does not explode in half an hour it would not go off in three. ; , 63 You say that natural ventilation should be provided in every mine at Loromandel if possible. Is not that the system at present?—ln most of the mines it is, but in a few they have resorted to mechanical means. _ 64 What mines have mechanical ventilation ? —I do not know. There is a mine where I have lieon working—the Hauraki Reefs—where they have a water jet. 65 Then, as to the exclusion of consumptives from the mines—not those suffering from miners' complaint alone would you be in favour of the exclusion of consumptives ?—lf I might be excused I would prefer to refrain from dealing with that matter, because there was a great deal of trouble with regard to the proposed compulsory examination. ... 66 Mr Reed.) As regards fatal accidents at Coromandel, how long ago is it since the last mining fatality occurred?— The last fatal accident T remember was about eight years ago. 67 So that tou have not had a fatal accident at Coromandel for eight years. Do you not think that is a remarkably good average I— Yes ; I have already said that we are very free from 68 Do you not think that the present system of inspection is efficient in providing against accidents?— Yes, the prevention of accidents is fairly satisfactory on our field. &9. Do you not think it is remarkably efficient? —Yes, certainly.

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70. As to where these men get wet, where were they going to?—To their work in the Hauraki Reefs. 71. Did the men go down through the surface levels? —They simply climbed down the shafts. 'Die cage was not put into use until the Inspector forced the company to pro Tide it. 72. Was it compulsory for the men to walk through the water—was there not another way? —There was some other way up among the hills, but they would have had slush to contend with. 73. So that it was not necessary for the men to walk through that water? —Well, it was as bad one way as the other, and the men preferred the water. 74. You said the ventilation was bad or could be improved. Now, will you tell us in what respect the ventilation was indifferent—were there any noxious gases? —I cannot be expected to determine the presence of noxious gases. 75. Could you not do so with a candle?— Yes, there must have been a good deal of bad gas in the air. 76. Can you tell us where that has happened?—l have frequently seen it—not only in one mine, but in many of them. 77. Did you feel any ill effects?— Yes. 78. In the stopes?—Yes, and also in dead-ends and when driving crosscuts. 79. Have you observed the candle burning dimly when it, was not being moved? —Yes, I have known the men to use more than one candle. 80. Did you report that to the Inspector of Mines? —Yes, and he immediately took steps to have it remedied. 81. The, Chairman.] How long was that ago? —Some little time back. 82. Mr. Reed.] In Coromandel do you carry out your workmen's inspections properly? —No, we do not have the mines inspected regularly. We are only a small body, and we cannot stand the expense. 83. Do you carry out workmen's inspections at all?—If there is a complaint made to the union the workmen's inspector goes along to the manager. 84. How long is it since the last workmen's inspection was made?— The last one was made about eight weeks ago in connection with an accident. 85. And before that what time had elapsed since the previous workmen's inspection?—Of course, we send a workmen's inspector to make a report in regard to wet places. Those reports come in frequently. 86. So you only send the workmen's inspector round in cases of accident or complaint?— That is all we are able to do at the present time. Andrew Cbawford sworn and examined. (No. 49.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. How many years' mining experience have you had?— About ten, on and off. 3. Where did you gain your experience? —In Australia and New Zealand. 4. How long have you been mining in New Zealand? —About four years and a half. 5. Where?—ln Waihi. 6. What length of experience have you had in Waihi 'I —Three years and a half. 7. And the remainder? —At Coromandel. 8. In which mine? —The Old Hauraki. 9. On what subjects do you wish to address the Commission? —As to sanitation. I would recommend that the places where the miners have their crib should have concreted or boarded floors, because it is the habit of miners to be continually spitting, and very often they throw down their tea and bits of crib, but it is the spitting I have the most objection to. I would recommend that the floors of all places for crib should be either concreted so as to be flushed, or boarded. I would also refer to ventilation. At the present time it is very inconvenient for the miners to go down out of hot places and sit in a draught at crib-time, so I would recommend that the crib places be put where there is no draught. There is another point which has special reference to the Waihi Mine, and that is as regards the winzes, which I consider too deep for the men to pull the material in these deep levels. It is beyond the strength of a man to pull material from 120 ft., and I would suggest that the company should be compelled to put in air-winches where it is necessary for pulling the material more than 60 ft., so as to relieve the miners in these deep blocks. 10. Have you any suggestions to offer as regards accidents or their prevention?—l would favour the battery system of firing, also the appointment of shot-firers. I had experience in Western Australia of the shot-firing system, where no shoveller or trucker was allowed to use high explosives. If there was any firing to be done in a mullock pass a miner would be sent down to do the firing for them, so that if a trucker had not had experience in the handling of explosives a man with some knowledge of the matter would be sent down to do it. I have worked with a hundred mates, and there is a great deal of diversity of opinion as to the length of fuse which should be used. T believe that the battery should not be used in stopes, but in winzes, rises, and shafts. They might also be used in hard drives, where you would have to take out the cut afterwards. I would not recommend their use in Coromandel, because we never have more than two holes to fire at once, but in Waihi I would recommend the use of the battery, as I have already stated. 11. Have you had any experience of hot places? Do you know anything about taking temperatures ?—No. 12. What has been your experience of hot places? —I had one experience on the Royal lode at Waihi. There they had to install compressed air, but I would rather work, with natural ventilation than with compressed air. As the result of working under those conditions I went down in weight, lost my appetite, and suffered from sleeplessness, I am convinced that it is not so healthy working with compressed air.

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[A. CRAWFORD.

13. Have you any further suggestions to offer?—As regards the engine-drivers I believe it would be beneficial to the miners if a second engine-driver were appointed. I would recommend that a winding-engine driver should be submitted to a medical test once a year to see if he were suffering from, heart-disease or any nervous trouble. It might be a great strain upon an enginedriver on a first-motion , engine, and therefore I would recommend that the medical examination shall take place, say, once a year to see if he is all right. Of course, as miners, we always look to the apparatus attached to the cage for our safety in case of accidents. 14. Mr. Dowgray.~] In connection with travelling-roads and ladderways, are they sufficiently wide at present?—lt depends, upon the size of the stopes. In Waihi they should be 4 ft. by 4 ft. They generally act as airways. 15. In connection with shot-firing you recommend that from practical experience?— Yes, from practical experience in the Golden Horseshoe Mine in Western Australia. 16. There was no difficulty in working on that system? —No; I believe it helped to minimize the accidents. 17. In the event of a misshot who should go back to it?—ln ninety-nine cases out of a hundred 1 think any old miner would prefer to go back himself to the hole. I myself would rather wait an hour and return to the mishole than allow another man to go back. My reason is that it is dangerous for a man who has not fired the hole to go groping round. I have had a good deal of experience of looking for misholes in winzes. 18. In connection with the braceman and chamberman being employed at other duties, you heard what the previous witness said on the matter? —It seems to me that if they were not permitted to be otherwise employed they would have a good deal of spare time, and it does not seem right that they should be sitting there doing nothing all the shift. 19. And as to the chamberman? —Well, he should be there to receive all messages and send them up, and do all the lowering. The knocker-line should be in the hands of the chamberman. 20. Mr. Parry.] Have you ever worked in a place where the temperature was taken?—No, 1 have not. The temperature may have been taken, but not to my knowledge. 21. Mr. Cochrane.] As to the size of winzes, would you have them made 4 ft. by 4 ft. in all cases? —No. In Coromandel, for instance, where we are working on small leaders, 2ft. by 2 ft. 6 in. for the travelling-ways would be sufficient. In Waihi, however, on the Martha or any other big lode, I would recommend that the travelling-ways be larger than they are, and also airways. 22. Then, as to the chamberman, supposing you have a chart and one drive with two men working, would you have a chamberman to do the signalling for these two men? —No, I think the company should be studied in a case like that. The chamberman could do other work. 23. Mr. Seed.] As regards the Boulder Mine, how long is it since they started the system of shot-firing by shot-firers? —It is over six years since I had knowledge of it, and I think it had been in existence then for three years. 24. And have they shot-firers in other mines in Kalgoorlie?—Yes; but they were driving on a different system. 25. Was it a fact that the shot-firers told the men to sit down while they did their shotfiring?—l do not know. 26. Do you think it will be likely to happen?—l do not remember a case. 27. How long were you working in a mine with the shot-firing system ? —Eighteen months. 28. Were they working by contract or day labour? —Under the contract system. They were boring by the foot, say, in drives. The shot-firing system was not universal there because the men did fire their own faces. In other places in the mine where machines were used, after the face was bored oat, the machines would be removed and the face would be fired out by the shotfirers. I think it minimized the danger, because they were all experienced men who handled the gelignite. 29. As regards the bank-to-bank system, could the miners relieve one another at the face? Would you suggest that for the gold-mines, to enable the miners to point out the condition instead of describing il verbally at a distance? That would not mean a loss of time for the men? —I would make a suggestion that a board or slate should be placed in every level, where the miners could leave the information for the shift coming on. If there were, say, only four men on the one level, they would go away with the first cage without seeing the other men coming on, and I believe there should be some means of communication between the two shifts. We always inform the chamberman of misholes. 30. Would it not be better to actually point out the place than to trust to a man's descriptive writing and literary ability? —Probably. Henry Cope sworn and examined. (No. 50.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?- —A miner. 2. How many years' experience have you had I— Twenty-seven. 3. Where? —In New Zealand. 4. In which mines ? —During the last twelve or fourteen years I have been working in the mines in the Coromandel district. 5. On what matters do you wish to inform the Commission? —As to sanitation and the better inspection of mines. We have no sanitary arrangements, and I think they are necessary. 6. What have you to say as to the necessity for better inspection? —Well, I think the district is too large for one Inspector; he has too much to do. 7. That is to say, what you wish is more frequent inspection and not better inspection ?— Yes, more frequent inspection,

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8. Have you any other matter to bring before the Commission —ventilation, for instance?— No, I think the ventilation in our mines in the Coromandel district is about as good as can be got. 9. Have you had any experience of accidents to yourself or to your mates? —I have had a good many myself. 10. Have you anything to suggest as to their cause or prevention? —I think myself that if there were a little more care taken there would not be so many accidents. 11. By the men themselves?— Yes. I think a good many accidents would be avoided if we had a system by means of which a man would be required to prove his ability and experience before he was allowed to work as a miner. 12. Do you find that the men do not take sufficient precautions to test their places to see that they are safe and sufficiently secure? —I think a man should be capable of doing that without trusting to any one else before he is allowed to work in a mine by himself or with another man. 13. Have you anything to suggest? —There is one other matter. I would like to see some provision made so that in case of accidents a stretcher or some such convenience should be provided to carry away injured men. 14. Where would you have these kept—on the levels or on the surface? —On the surface, where they could be easily got at. 15. Have you any first-aid appliances?— None at all. 16. It has been suggested that first-aid appliances and stretchers should be provided : you agree with that?— Yes. 17. Mr. Dowgray.] In connection with your statement that a number of accidents are the result of carelessness on the part of the men there may be a wrong interpretation placed on your words. What you meant was that the accidents were the result of the men's inexperience?— Well, I have known men, when working below and sending timber down, to do so very carelessly. The first thing you hear is " Look out below," and down comes the lot. 18. That is due to lack of experience? —Yes, it is different from carelessness; but, still, there is a great deal of carelessness on the part of men who know better. 19. In regard to inexperienced men you think there should be some way of dealing with them, or that they should have a certain amount of experience gained through working with experienced men before being given a place of their own?—-Yes, that is so. I have been jammed on several occasions as the result of carelessness on the part of others, and I have had nine mates in three weeks. 20. What happened to them?—As soon as they got used to the work they were drafted away to some other place. 21. Mr. Reed.] Have you observed the ages of the miners in Karangahake and Waihi ? —1 was never there. 22. Are the miners as experienced now as they were ten and twenty 3'ears ago?— Not as a general rule. 23. Would you be inclined to attribute the number of accidents to the youth and inexperience of the men? —I would. 24. Mr. Cochrane.] Have you any suggestion to make with regard to more care being taken to prevent accidents? —Well, I think myself the better way to deal with the matter would be for the manager or official in charge of the mine not to allow any man to work except by himself, unless he had confidence in him. You put two mates together now, and perhaps one is careless and the other careful : the latter cannot be always watching what his mate is doing. I would suggest, therefore, that before a man is allowed to go to work in the face that he should prove he has had some experience. 25. Mr. Doivgray .] Do you work day-wages in Coromandel? —No; I have only worked daywages two years out of about twenty-five. 26. Ts there a difficulty experienced by men getting on in years in obtaining employment? —Yes. 27. The Chairman.] Ihat difficulty is not confined to mining?— No. 28. Mr. Doivgray.] So that it is not experience the men are lacking, but muscle?— That is so. 29. What have you to suggest about the better inspection of the mines?—l say that if the mining industry is worth carrying on it is worth looking after. While the district is so large the Inspector has not the time to inspect a mine properly. 30. It is simply a matter of more Inspectors? —One is not sufficient, and if two were found insufficient they should have three. More frequent inspection of the mines is required. 31. Or that the country should be cut up into smaller districts? —Yes. 32. Mr. Seed.] Can you specify one case where the inspection has been inadequate during the last twelve months? —Well, I would like to go further back than the last twelve months. 33. Well, say two years, since the present Inspectors had their districts altered?—At the present time we have sixteen registered mines working in Coromandel. 34. But I am referring to your complaint about insufficient inspection : can you specify one case? —Well, not as far as our present Inspector is concerned. I am not casting any reflection upon him, but I want to see a more frequent inspection of the mines all round. 35. Have you lost anything by the Inspectors not visiting more frequently?— Not with the present arrangements. 36. If things are satisfactory now, why alter them? One witness has stated that there has not been a fatal accident for eight years : do you not think that is very creditable? —Yes, as far as the inspection goes. 37. As regards the Coromandel field, is it not very decadent?— Well, I do not know. 38. Is the number of men working there not decreasing every year? —Yes.

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39. At the present rate will there be a mining-field there at all, say, ten years hence? —I do not think so. 40. Then why increase the number of Inspectors?—lf we got the Inspectors increased, and l)ie Mining Act properly carried out, there would be ten times as many mines working. 41. The Chairman.'] In what respect have the laws not been carried out?— There are a great many mines which have been destroyed in the top workings and levels, and for what? Just because the last companies which were working them took down the ladderways and stripped the mines of all the timber, thus letting the ground come down in the levels. 42. Mr. Seed.] That is not a breach of the law? —1 do not know. The Inspector is here; he can tell you. 43. The Chairman.] How long is it since the timber was drawn? —The last timber drawn was about three months ago. 44. Mr. Dowgray.] Why do they draw this timber, and to what extent? —They draw it to sell it. As a result the country is all coming in. 45. Does that endanger any other country?—lt makes the mine valueless unless you have plenty of money to retimber all the ground. 46. The Chairman.] Even if a man draws the timber in his mine and abandons it that is not a breach of the Act? —Well, I want provision made to prevent them from doing so. 47. What would you recommend in regard to the matter?— That the Warden should not accept the surrender of any mine until the Inspector had examined and passed it, so as to prevent the drawing of the timber and the destruction of the mine. James Collie sworn and examined. (No. 51.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. How many years' mining experience have you had?— Seventeen years, off and on. 3. Where? —Coromandel, Waihi, and Waitekauri. 4. Which mine are you working in now? —Hauraki Mine, Coromandel. 5. How long have you been there? —About eighteen months. 6. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission?—l consider that the braceman should have a knowledge of working underground before taking on the responsibility of the brace. 7. What experience do you consider necessary —Eighteen months. 8. Anything else? —I would suggest that the mine-managers should take the temperature of the mines at least once a week, and that it should be reported for the information of the miners —say, in the change-house. As far as a man's health is concerned, every effort should be made to obviate the dust nuisance as much as possible. That is all I have to say at the present time. 9. Mr. Dowgray.] You heard what the previous witness said about travelling-ways : have you anything further to add in regard to that matter?—No, I can say nothing further than has already been said by Mr. Prescott, that 2 ft. 6 in. square is ample for our small lodes. 10. Have you had any experience in mines where there have been shot-firers whose duty it was to fire all shots? —No. 11. Mr. Parry.] Do you think it would have a tendency to minimize accidents if the shotfiring for a district were in the hands of one man?—lt might do so in a big mine, but there is no occasion to have them in small mines. 12. Have you ever seen any temperatures taken ? ; —No. 13. You liave not seen the Inspector of Mines take them?—No, although T believe he has done so. 14. Have you had any experience of working in hot places?— Yes 15. Would you sooner work in a hot place than in a cool place?— Decidedly not. 16. Mr. Cochrane,.] Where would you have the mine-manager take the temperatures?— Throughout the mine in all the working-faces. 17. Mr. Parry.] Have you anything further to suggest?— No. 18. You have heard the evidence given by previous witnesses: do you corroborate it? —Yes, I am prepared to corroborate the statements made by the secretary of the union and Mr. Crawford, but I am not in a position to understand the circumstances as explained by the last witness. I cannot speak as to that. Henky Franklin Shepherd sworn and examined. (No. 52.) 1. The Chairman.] You are mine-manager of which mine? —The Old Hauraki. 2. How many years' experience have you had? —Twenty-two years' mining experience. 3. And as manager? —About sixteen 3'eais ; but for three years I was not managing. 4. What is your opinion as to the time which should be fixed for misholes and hangfires?— I think half an hour is long enough : if a shot will not go off in half an hour it will not explode in three hours. 5. Have you any opinion to offer as to ventilation? —In our own mine we have natural ventilation. We confine the air from each level to that level. It comes up a separate airway, and the foul air is discharged into the return. 6. Do you take the temperatures or air-measurements?—l have taken some temperatures, as has also the Inspector of Mines. ~-,., m , ~ . 7. How did your figures compare with his?— They were practically the same, lhe highest temperature I got was 74° dry. 8 What have you to say about, the sanitary arrangements : 1 understand there are no sanitary arrangements'at your mine?— They are not satisfactory. The miners use the sump. T was

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going to install pans, but when 1 heard that the Commission was sitting 1 decided to wait. 1 think a septic-tank system would be satisfactory if it could be worked. I simply offer that as a suggestion. 9. Have you any opinion to offer as to the appointment of shot-firers to fire all shots?—l think the men who drill the holes should tire them. I have not had any experience with the shotfirer. We have found no difficulty in connection with the present system. 10. I understand you have been free from serious accidents: have you had any minor ones? —The most serious accident which has occurred under ray management was a broken leg sustained by a man about two months ago, as the result of a piece of rock coming off the wall of the drive. 11. What have you to say as regards the suggestion that mine-managers should take the temperatures and post them in the change-houses for the benefit of the miners? —I do not know what to think about it. lam not aware of any advantage which the miners would gain thereby, but 1 would make no objection to its being done if I thought it would serve any good purpose. 12. Mr. Molineaux.] What is your opinion about the connecting of adjoining mines for purposes of ventilation : do you think regulations should be made to enforce that ?—lt depends upon the method of ventilation. It would certainly be an advantage for :i mine with one shaft, but whether it would be to the advantage of the adjoining mine I cannot say. Tt depends upon the ventilation. 13. You can imagine cases where it would be of advantage to both properties, can you not? —Well, in the case of our mines in Coromandel we have an adjoining , property worked from our lowest level, and it certainly would be of benefit for them to make a connection, and if we were to work that part of the mine where they are working it would be of advantage to us, but otherwise it would not. 14. AVith regard to the engine-drivers, do you consider that it would tend to minimize the probability of accidents if there were two engine-drivers at the engine when shifts were being changed?— During my experience we have had no accidents with one driver. We find everything works quite satisfactorily. 15. You do not think it is at all necessary to have a. second man available? —Not in the case of the smaller mines. I would not like to express an opinion in regard to the larger mines, because I do not know the conditions. 16. But if it were advisable in the big mines would it not be advisable in the small mines also ?—I cannot express an opinion, as I have not been manager of a big mine, but it certainly is not necessary in our case. 17. Mr. Cochrane.] What is your opinion as to the medical examination of engine-drivers, say, once every two or three years ?—I think that would be a good thing. 18. Then, as to connecting adjoining mines, you have been asked as to the advisability of that for purposes of ventilation. What is your opinion as to that proposal for second outlets as a means of escape? —It would be a good thing. 19. And as to drainage, with, of course, compensation for the water coming in, what is your opinion as to connecting mines for that purpose?-—I think it is advisable to have one drainage pump, if one were sufficient, to cope with the water. That is what we are doing at the present time, and the adjoining company is paying a contribution. 20. Mr. Reed.] If one company seriously objected to have a connection made, would you be in favour of compelling that company to submit?—l would not like to express an opinion upon that point. 21. Mr. Doivgray.] What is your opinion of the braceman and chamberman being employed at other duties? —Well, so long as the braceman is within sound of the signals there should be no objection. I do not think it would be advisable for the braceman to be a mile away, but I can see no harm as long as he is within sound of the signal. 22. And as to the chamberman ?—ln our case it would be very awkward if we had to have a special chamberman. We have one man who is delegated to ring the trucks away and also run the trucks. 23. What kind of communication have you between the chamberman and engine-house?— The ordinary knocker-line. 24. And as to a return signal between the engine-house and the chamberman?—There is no return signal excepting with a rope. If there is any danger, or if the cages are wanted below, they shake the rope on the level and wait for a reply. The cages are never shifted from the level without shaking the rope, unless signalled. 25. Do you not think it woidd be an advantage to have the signal to the engine-house as well? —We find it safe to shake the rope. If the cage is wanted the braceman shakes the rope; you can hear it 100 ft. along the level. 26. That might answer in your particular mine, but would it be suitable in a big mine? —I do not know anything about a big mine. 27. What is your opinion as to the necessity for manholes in long drives —say, 400 ft. or 500 ft. —to provide refuge for the men when firing?—l should think that electrical firing-appa-ratus should be used in that case, and also that small safety chambers should be driven. 28. At what distances apart?—lt would depend upon the nature of the drive—whether it was a straight or a crooked drive. When driving on a reef it would hardly be necessary. 29. If it were a straight drive what distance would you suggest?— About every 200 ft. or 300 ft. 30. Mr. Parr;/.] Do you think it would be more satisfactory both to the management and to the men if a standard temperature were fixed to constitute a six-hour place?—T do not know. I have not had any conflict with the men as to six-hour places. 31. But, speaking generally, do j r ou think it would be more satisfactory to have a standard fixed ?—I dare say it would.

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32. As regards working in wet places, have you and the workmen decided on what constitutes a wet place?—We have not drawn up any hard-and-fast rules. If the men asked for a place to be treated as a wet place I have never refused it. They have never asked for it unless it was a wet place. 33. And when the men considered it sufficiently wet they asked for six-hour shifts, and you have always given them?— Yes. 34. Why?-—I considered it was a six-hour place. 35. Do you think a man is a sufficient judge as to what constitutes a wet place?— Yes, between the men and the manager. Samuel Carlyon sworn and examined. (No. 53.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?— Mine-manager of Kapanga Mine, Coromandel. 2. How nianj' years' mining experience have } T ou had?— Forty-six. 3. And as manager how many? —Something over twent3-four years, at intervals. 4. How long have you been in the present mine? —Sixteen or eighteen months. 5. Prior to that where were you managing? —At Whangamata. G. On what matters do you wish to inform the Commission?—l do not know that I have anything to say further than what you have already heard. From what I have gathered everything that has been said respecting the Coromandel mines has been very favourable. 7. Mr. Dowgray .] You agree with all the suggestions which have been made? —Yes, Ido not know that any of them are out of the way. 8. Mr. Molineanx .] Have you had any experience in the taking of temperatures more than with the thermometer!— No. 9. Mr. Parr;/.] Do you think that it is safe to work from the bottom of the Kapanga in a level 1,400 ft. without another outlet? —We are not in that distance. 10. What distance are you in? —Close on 600 ft. 11. Have you any deeper levels? —I have, but not in the Kapanga. We are cleaning out the 1,000 ft. crosscut to see whether the gold is there. There lias been a tremendous amount of money expended in the mine this last five years, and they have had no returns. It has all gone in repairs. 12. What is the depth of this shaft where the crosscut is?—4,ooo ft. 13. What depth is your well-hole? —9 ft. 14. Do you think that is deep enough? —Quite sufficient. 15. In the event of an inrush of water? —I do not know that there is any danger of that. I made all preparations for that contingency when I went there first. The water used to come in from the creek, but I flumed the creek from beginning to end, and now we have no trouble. 16. In the event of your striking another current of water or inrush?—-There is plenty of provision for the men to get away by the drive and the ladderway, in the shaft and winze as well, to get up to the next level. 17. 'What system of ventilation have you? —Natural ventilation; the air comes down the shaft. 18. Is there any assisted ventilation to provide air at the face 600 ft. from the shaft? —The only air is that which comes down the shaft. " 19. What is the temperature at the face?—B2° to 83°. 20. How many hours do the men work? —Six hours. I have four men working, and they take hour about. Two men go into the face for one hour, and the other two men go in for the next hour. That is the way I do it to give the men a chance. There are four men doing two men's work. Everything is worked on the day shift. 21. You think that temperature warrants that being done?— Yes, otherwise I would not do it. 22. Then practically they work only three hours at the face?— They work six hours, but they take it hour about.

Invercargill Courthouse, 16th Septrmbeb, 1911. Charles Arthur Port sworn and examined. (No. 54.) 1. The Chairman..] You are a miner? —Yes. 2. You have had a good many years' experience? —Yes, about forty years of alluvial-mining experience, mostly at Round Hill and Lqngwood. 3. Now, what is it you wish to bring before the Commission? —Well, there is the matter of the fatal accident which took place at Hound Hill some time ago, and I think it would be a good thing if something could be done to prevent such accidents occurring in future. 4. I may point out that the Commission cannot inquire into any particular accident, nor can we review any finding that may have been given in regard to it. We will hear the fact of the accident, and any suggestions that you consider would tend to minimize the chance of such an accident occurring again , , but I want it to be understood that we are not here for the purpose of reopening any particular inquiry, or considering anything in the nature of an appeal against a finding? —I have no desire to open the matter again, but as you are taking evidence on accidents T think it is only right that any suggestion which can be made should be made to you. I may say that after the accidental wrote to the Witness, and in my letter set out the suggestions which I have to offer to this inquiry. There should be some mode of signalling from the men if a man should get trapped. 5. In order to put the matter in order, will you state to the Commission the facts of the accident? —Yes. I may tell you that I was not present at the time of the accident, but I was at the inquiry. Two men —Joseph Bates, a married man with a wife and two children, and Frank Smith, a single man —were sinking a second lift on the 4 p.m. to 12 o'clock midnight shift, and

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some time during that period they were both entrapped by a fall of sludge, and either smothered by the sludge or drowned. From what I saw of the place I concluded that a slip occurred through there being no solid ground or barrier to keep a slip from coming in. 1 think they were both overcome at the same time, and there was no third person to give the alarm. If the} r had only been entrapped a third person could have rendered them assistance. In some of those places where two men are working on night shift one is sometimes called away in the ordinary course of work —perhaps to_wash mats. Then, again, if one of the elevators gets blocked and a man goes to free it he may get trapped, in which case he would get drowned almost for certain. At Round Hill, or at any of the elevating mines I have seen at work, I have not seen any provision for signalling for help. I think that a line should be fixed which a man could pull in case of accident, and that a barrier should be built so that a man could support himself. Despite the accident the company has taken no steps to make any such provision, and I think it is only right that statutory provision should be made to safeguard the men. 6. Where would you have the signal connected with? —You could have it from one claim to another. It was suggested at the inquest that there should be a be!] somewhere about the mine, but that did not meet with the approval of the other side at all. 7. Do you suggest, then, that at no time should there be less than two men about the elevator? —:Yes, unless the elevator is so guarded that a man could not be drawn into it. 8. Have you any other suggestion to offer?—No, not in regard to that matter, but there is one other subject which might come within the scope of the Commission, and that is the matter of accommodation. For years at Round Hill the workmen had nowhere to take their meals. If they work eight hours there is a meal intervening. A few years ago, when the miners' union was formed, the union, on behalf of the men, asked that there should be a shelter-shed erected where they could take their meals. 9. Do they have to change at the mine?—No, there is no change-house there, and 1 do not think, speaking from my experience of alluvial mining, that the men would use them if they were provided. To change on the surface is not so necessary as it would be for men coming from underground workings. 10. Would you recommend that a house be provided for men to take their meals in?— Yes. 1 may say that the company put up two tents or frames, but they had no flies over them, and were very unsatisfactory. The tents were about 10 ft. by 8 ft., and had no floors or tables. There was no provision for the men to warm a drop of tea. The last time I went into one there was about 2 in. of water on the floor, which one had to step into. You can understand what condition sucli a place would be after having been used for months, as the result of crumbs and scraps left there all that time. 11. Mr. Cochrane.] Did the evidence at the inquest clearly show that the accident was caused by a slip?— No. 12. Did the evidence point to the fact that there was no slip, bvit that the men were drowned? —No; I. went down with the Coroner and saw the place. 13. Did the Inspector of Mines, Mr. Thomson, state that there was no slip?—l believe he said that, in his opinion, there was no slip. 14. From your observation was there slush and gravel, or simply water?— There was slush and gravel. Without trenching on the previous inquiry, I may state what is perhaps now publicly known. These two men were sinking in an old paddock where the ground had been worked and ■ afterwards filled in with sludge. The elevator was brought up to the face, and there was no solid bank where the men were working under the elevator, and nothing whatever to prevent a slip. I may say I asked Mr. Thomson at the inquiry if he would go to work there, and I said I would not do so with my twenty years' experience of that very sludge. That is why a second inquiry was asked for, and I think it is only right that another inquiry into the matter should be held. I think when that inquiry is held arrangements should be made to summon persons to give evidence, and not to leave it to them to do so voluntarily. That is why 1 would rather not go into the matter now. I think the suggestions I have made here as to the signal and the barrier would be satisfactory. Timber is very cheap at Round Hill, and there should not be much trouble in giving effect to the suggestions I have made. Assuming that one of the men. was free, the other might have supported himself while his mate went for help. At Round Hill the bed-rock is decomposed diorite, which is very slippery. At the main elevator, apart from the place where this accident occurred, if a man were walking beside the race and slipped off, there is nothing to prevent him from going head first into the elevators; there is no provision for such a thing, and never has been. My suggestions as to precautions to be taken to avoid future accidents are set forth in my letter to the Witness of the 10th May last, which is as follows : " To the Editor of- the Otago Witness. — g IE; g a sympathizer with the bereaved relatives and friends of the victims in the above-named calamity, I fully appreciate the views expressed by the correspondent 'Victoria Cross,' published in the Otago Daily Times of the 28th instant, and approve of his sentiment and action. The former, too, are much in accord with the report and reference of your contemporary, the Southland Daily Time's, of the 24th instant. Knowing well the men and the place where the poor fellows perished by that slow and horribly painful death, mentally and physically, like others who have read the reports above quoted, may I ask, What of the future? Can no steps be taken, nothing devised and done to prevent an almost certain like fate to others similarly employed as those poor fellows were, unless some sufficient means are taken to prevent a recurrence of the calamity? At the inquest three suggestions were made —viz. : (1.) That no sinking of second lifts should take place at night in dan°-erous ground. This was added as a rider to the verdict. (2.) That three men instead of two be employed on night shift, To this an objection was raised by the company's representatives on the score'of cost. (3.) That an alarm-bell be erected, so as to summon help when needed This suggestion found little favour. I will now try and deal with these suggestions seriatim lam not sure the rider in the Western Star, from which I quote, is correctly reported;

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but, assuming it is, I think the sinking of all lifts should be discontinued except by daylight, and then only with a watchman in charge on top. His duty it should be to keep a close watch on any ground likely to slip and endanger the men engaged in sinking. The passing by the jury of the warning does not make it law, and when such a rider is added which does not find favour with the party against whom it is made, or who would be penalized by it, it is likely by them to be honoured more in the breach than by its observance, and even be referred to as a gratuitous insult. It was stated by the company's representative that ' there was no need for a third man, as his time would be wasted, and this would detract from the profitable working of the mine,' and that he could have done no more than poor Smith had done. Let me here say that Mr. Hart, the manager, later on, when giving evidence, said the victims might have had one more chance of life by a third man going for help to the township, three-quarters of a mile away. Could not a third man, if there, have rung a bell or set it ringing automatically? It was further stated in evidence the ' sinking the lift was no more dangerous than pulling timber out of the lift when the same got blocked ' (as they frequently do, this company's claim being all in bush lands). Assume that the lift gets blocked whilst one of the men is away for an hour or more at a time washing the mats on the gold-saving tables at the main elevator many chains away. When the lift blocks the nozzleman has to go and clear it. It' whilst so engaged he slipped—as the manager said he supposed Bates did —and, like him, got jammed, who would then assist him? The roar of the water rushing through the elevator, with the rush and fall of water all around the gold-saving tables, with the plunging and washing of the mats in the sand-boxes, would in all probability- prevent any cry for help reaching the man engaged on the tables. With the extra water coming in from the breakingdown nozzle, the man freeing the lift would soon be drowned. Does this show any necessity for a third man? And here let me tell your readers this is not the first fatal accident of this nature in this company's mine. Witness the death of Robert Stewart some years ago, whilst working alone on night shift. When the paddock was pumped out the position of the body indicated that he had perished in the same dreadful manner as Smith and Bates. There was no one to tell the tale. At the inquest on Smith and Bates, who were working by electric light, it was given in evidence that the lights that night were sufficient; in fact, one witness said tip-top. If the artificial lights are as above described, why cannot a third man be profitably employed on the night shift when, say, five or more may be in daylight? As a further means of giving the men a chance of escape I suggest that a barrier somewhat like a panel of post and four or five rails, or preferably chains, be placed a little in front of all the elevator intakes, and that on each side of the race leading to the elevator similar posts and chains be stretched, so that in the event of a man slipping and drifting down to the lift he would have something to grab, and thus save himself being carried into the-lift. Had there been such a protection poor Bates might have held himself or been strapped up and thus supported ; Smith might have been free to go for help, or been more free to try and extricate poor Bates. This is assuming Smith was not pinned by the sludge and timber at the same time that Bates got into difficulties. It would have provided Smith with support and leverage to try and free himself. And it must be borne in mind that there was no clear evidence that Bates's foot was ever in the suction-pipe. His body was forcibly pulled out of the encasing sludge without any one seeing how or where Bates was fast. His leg may have been broken in extricating his body, or by poor Smith in his endeavour to free him with a crowbar. As a further and necessary means of making the work less dangerous it is quite easy and inexpensive to protect the workmen and plant in the following way : Prior to filling up the worked-out paddock by running in sludge and stripping, and when erecting the trestles to carry the second lift let the legs and a few extra posts be well sunk in the ground, forming a semicircle round the proposed site of the new lift. These posts could be easily stayed or braced by several strands of fencing-wire fastened round the posts and to posts or logs as anchorage, and by this means no obstruction would be placed on that side of the lift and the ground to be worked. Behind the posts facings of scrub should be placed, thus preventing any slip or continuous flow of sludge into the lift blocking il and fatally entrapping the men. In reference to the alarm-bell, it may interest some of your readers to know that in 1893 there was in this company's claim an automatic float alongside the elevator, whereby when the lift was blocked it formed a connection and switched on an electric bell; and at night time, in addition to the bell, it switched on an electric light, which was transmitted through red glass as a danger signal. Does this suggest anything to those interested? At a further date, when I am fortified with certified copies of evidence, I will again address you on this and mining matters at Round Hill. —I am, &c, Charles A. Post." Edward Cooper Leary sworn and examined. (No. 55.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you by occupation?—A public accountant. lam also attorney for the Round Hill Mining Company. 2. Have you had any mining experience? —No practical experience. 1 wish to make a statement to the effect that my company is prepared to do anything in reason to safeguard the lives and health of the men, but it is a very difficult matter to arrive at what can be done in the direction of minimizing the risk of accidents, and so on. In regard to the accident which occurred, so far as I can make out no means have been pointed out whereby it could have been averted; but the company is prepared to take any action necessary. 3. What have you to say as to'a house for the men to have their meals in ? —Well, my opinion is that if the men had a house they would not use it. There is a shelter there, and plenty of timber about, so that they could always have a fire going- if they wanted it. If we did have a permanent shelter it would mean removing it every time a, new paddock was opened. 4. As a matter of expense, would the company have any objection to providing a rough shed for the purpose? I would like to know the opinion of the men as to the need for it, and whether it would be used if it were provided. I may say that Mr. Port was not really mining during his twenty years' connection with claims. If the men thought a shed was necessary the manager would certainly be quite agreeable to provide it.

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5. We are dealing with the question generally, and not with the Round Hill Company in particular?—l can only speak from my own company's point of view. I do not think it is necessary to make it compulsory upon every company. 6. Mr. Dowgray.] You made reference to Mr. Port as having been connected with mining for twenty years: he gave his experience as covering forty years?—lt depends upon what you call mmmg experience. 7. I believe you admitted that you have had no practical mining experience?—No I have done no work there except my visits to the mine. 8. The whole of your experience has come from the manager's point of view in dealing with the company s business?—Of course, 1 have dealt with matters from the accountant's point of view also. ?■ ,J? U neard tnat the men > through their union, had been pressing for some place to take their crib" m?— Yes, but it has never come under my notice. I have only been connected with the company for three years. 10. If the men have a grievance do they come to you or go to the manager?—To the manager. 11. They may have made this request to the manager and you not know anything about it? —Possibly. 12. You said that if there were a respectable shelter-shed at the mine the men would not use it?—l doubted it. 13. Have you ever been in any place where there was anything of the kind?—No, I have had no experience of such a thing; I have never seen a shelter-shed. 14. If there were a shelter-shed of the sort as described by Mr. Port would you take your meal in it?—lt would depend upon the weather. There is a very good shelter-shed at Round Hill, where I have had my lunch. 15. What was the weather like?— There was a high wind blowing. 16. You might have done it as a matter of experience?—No; I went there as a matter of course when I was on a business visit to the mine. 17. You said you did not think it was necessary to bring in legislation dealing with the matter ? —Not to compel my company. 18. You said your company would provide a shelter-shed : is that not an argument for legislation being brought in ?—No, I do not think it would be necessary in every case. 19. Can you tell us how it would not be necessary in every instance? —In many places the men can get shelter without having a shed provided specially for the purpose. For instance, this shed I speak of is used for other purposes, such as storing explosives and tools. 20. The Chairman.] Supposing there were a provision made to the effect that at the request of the Inspector of Mines suitable houses should be erected?—l think that would be a very good idea; the matter should be left in the hands of an impartial man. I think the Inspectors would act fairly in the matter, as they do in regard to other matters. . 21. Mr. Cochrane.'] Did you hear the last witness's statement as to the condition of the sheltershed ?—Yes. 22. Do you contradict it or not? —I do not think I have ever been in the shed in very wet weather, but I think it should be satisfactory. If he is referring to the shelter-shed under the elevator I do not agree with him. 23. But as to the tent? —Although it has a fly on it, it may not be all it might be for the purpose of dining in. Febdbbick Hart sworn and examined. (No. 56.) 1. The Chairman.] You are the manager of the Round Hill Gold-mining Company?— Yes. 2. How long have you been, a manager?— About eight years. 3. What experience have you had in mining? —About thirteen years. 4. Do you hold any certificates? —No. 5. Have you any suggestions to offer in regard to the matters dealt with by previous witnesses? —Yes. With regard to the tents referred to by Mr. Port, they are heavy duck tents, 8 ft. by 10 ft. They had flies on until recently. They were built with wooden frames, to be carried about to different parts of the paddock. 6. How far were they from the working-face? —Sometimes about 10 to 15 chains. It would be impossible to build a shed to be carried about the paddock. 7. How long do the men have for lunch?— Half an hour —those who work on wages and ordinary shift men. There is another reason why we do not build sheds for the purpose, and that is because you cannot carry them over trees, races, and stumps; it is impossible to carry a shed about like you can a tent. 8. Could you not have a movable shed on a sledge or at a convenient place, but not in the paddock?—At the tables would be the handiest place. There is no reason why there should not be a shed there. The reason for using the tents was because they could be carried about the paddock. !). Mr. Dowgray.] You said the tables are 20 chains away? —Well, anything from 5 to 15 chains away from the working-faces. 10. You said the men get half an hour for meals : if they had to travel, say, 10 chains, would they do so in the company's time? —Sometimes they take three-quarters of an hour; we are not strict to ten minutes or so. 11. Would they have to travel backwards and forwards in their own time? —Strictly speaking, they ought to. 12. Do you think Mr. Port gave a faithful description of that tent?— Well, lately the tent has not been used for that purpose—the men hang their clothes in it; but as the men wear gum boots a little water on the ground would not matter very much.

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13. Do you think a tent in which you require to use gum boots is a suitable place to take your meals in? —It is not so bad as that. Last night I went down in my slippers. 14. The Chairman.] It would only be used in wet weather? —That is so. And as for keeping the tent clean, that is for the men to attend to. J 5. However, do you not think it an unreasonable proposal that the men should have a suitable place ?—Certainly not. 16. Mr. Dowgray.~\ What is your opinion as to the other suggestions made hj Mr. Porl as to the barrier and means of communication? —Well, I would be in favour of having a bell connected with my residence for giving an alarm. 17. The Chairman.] What is the distance from your residence to the mine?— Close on a mile, I think. 18. How far are the claims apart? —About 32 chains. 19. So that an interchange of bells would be satisfactory?—No, the claims are not both always working. 20. Mr. Dowgray.] What is your idea of the necessity for having three men on the night shift? —It is not necessary. 21. For what reason? —There is not enough work for them to do. With two men on a shift, half the time the second man is not working steadily. 22. In the particular place where this accident occurred the third man would have been of value? —Yes. 23. Mr. Cochrane.] Some questions have been placed in my hands. Have there been flies on either of the tents during the last eighteen months?— Yes, on No. 2 tent, though the fly was not pulled tight. There has not been a fly on No. 1 tent for about twenty months. 24. During the dust and sand storms where have the men been in the habit of taking their meals? —At times in the open, at other times in the shed underneath the tables, and also sometimes in the tent. Cromwell Courthouse, 21st September, 1911. Robert Mclntosh sworn and examined. (No. 57.) 1. The Chairman] You are a mine-manager? —Yes, mine-manager for the Arrow Flat Goldmining Company. 2. You were for some time Inspector of Mines under the Government for this district? —Yes, for Otago and Southland. 3. How long were you Inspector? —I was Assistant Inspector for about eight years, and Inspector for two years. 4. Do you know the scope of this inquiry?— Yes. 5. Are there any suggestions you would like to place before the Commission? —I would prefer to give my evidence in reply to any questions which the Commissioners may desire to put to me, and will be glad to offer suggestions in regard to any matter which may crop up. 6. Mr. Molineau.j;.] With regard to the ventilation of gold-mines, have you found it satisfactory?—lhe ventilation of the gold-mines here is carried out by natural means, and I have generally found it satisfactory. There have been occasions when there have been slight blockages of air in the mines, due to natural causes, but very rarely. 7. Natural ventilation has invariably been satisfactory?— Yes, it has not been necessary to put in any mechanical ventilation. . 8. Have you found it necessary to suggest, or can you suggest, that a standard temperature be fixed for reducing hours of work for hot places ? —I think that is a very debatable point, and I am not prepared to say anything on the matter except that it would be a very difficult thing to arrange. 9. The occasion has not arisen in connection with mining in this district for fixing a standard temperature —such a case has -not come under your notice? —No. 10. AVith regard to explosives, has it come under your notice that there are many misfires? — No, they have not come under my notice in my inspection of quartz-mines. They may have occurred. They are generally single shots, or two shots at the most. The men in this district are mostly skilled men, and when they are putting in only one or two shots they take extra care. 11. Do you know if there have been any accidents at all through the use of explosives?—l can call to mind one fatal accident which occurred when a man was preparing a charge. He was injured about the head and mouth. The only question which arose was as to .how he was preparing the charge. 12. What explosive was used? —Gelignite. 13. Under the circumstances you do not consider it necessary to legislate with regard to the number of holes to be fired at one time, or whether they should be fired by electricity or by fuse?— As to the mining operations in this district, where there are only a few shots fired at a time, I do not think it necessary, but I am certainly of opinion that where a large number of shots are fired there should be some control. 14. You have not heard of accidents being caused through firing shots by fuse in shafts?— No, it has not come under my notice. 18. In connection with the working of sluicing claims can you suggest any means or appliances which would tend to prevent accidents? —With the present method of conducting sluicing operations it would be very difficult to lay down hard-and-fast rules. My own impression is that the inspection covers everything that is required,

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16. The Chairman.] That is, the present system of inspection by Government Inspectors?— Yes. 17. Mr. Molineaux.] In the working of high faces is there any danger?— Yes, in the cleaning out of the bottom, when they work the nozzle right under the face. We have had an accident of that kind. 18. Would it be practicable to fix a limit as to the height to which the bottom should be worked ? —No. When a paddock is being taken out, if the men are not too greedy, there is not so much chance of an accident. But with the water-power in their hands they work right under the face, and that is where the danger lies. 19. In sinking a tunnel is there a danger of the men being drawn into the elevator? —Yes, experience has proved that. 20. Can you suggest anything to minimize the risk of accident from that cause? —No, except more careful attention on the part of the men, and better supervision on the part of the manager. 21. With regard to the illumination of sluicing claims, during your term of office as Inspector were the claims sufficiently illuminated? —Yes, generally speaking. 22. By what means?—By flare-lamps, and in the larger claims by arc lamps and electric lights. At Nevis there are two electric-lighting plants. 23. Do you consider that under ordinary circumstances hand-lamps are sufficient to ensure safe working?—ln sluicing claims during night-work a man's work is generally confined to a particular spot; the nozzleman is working all the time in one place, and the jetman in another. As long as the men have their particular places sufficiently illuminated all is well. 24. With regard to dredge-work, can you suggest any appliances to minimize the number of accidents? —We certainly could apply the matter of improved lighting-appliances to the dredges, inasmuch as kerosene-lamps are not a very dependable quantity always. There is a great deal of water splashing about, the lamps get covered with mud, and the glasses are liable to get broken. But, still, as a whole the lighting on the dredges is very good. 25. You consider the present regulations could with advantage be amended so as to require the better lighting of dredges ?—I think it would be hard to do it, because any improvement would mean increased cost. I think a constant supervision of the dredges meets the case. Probably if there were not such good supervision the lighting would be inferior to what it is now. 26. In view of your experience as an Inspector of Mines do you think greater power should be given to Inspectors?—l think they should have extraordinary powers. 27. In what way?—ln the way of dealing with small breaches of the regulations; they should be able to bring such cases before a Justice of the Peace at once. I feel sure it would raise the status of the Inspector as lie was travelling his district. It is a very important point. 28. At the present time what course does the Inspector pursue in connection with these small breaches of the regulations? —If he considers it necessary he reports fully on the matter to his superior officers, and then there is the usual course adopted of consulting the Law Office, after which lie receives instructions from Wellington as to the action to be taken. 29. You consider that the Inspector should be granted the power to prosecute?— Yes; in moat instances the case could be taken before a Justice of the Peace, and if he felt it was beyond Irini the matter could be taken before a superior Court. 30. The Chairman.] What do you mean by a superior Court? —A Magistrate. 31. But that is the same Court? —Yes, that is so. 32. Do you not think that, as regards cases in which the Inspector had summary jurisdiction to institute proceedings without reference to headquarters, such cases should be taken before the Warden? —Yes, but probably the matter could be brought before a J. P., to save time where the breaches are small. These small breaches should be taken more notice of. 33. Yes, but you are cutting out the Crown Law Officers in Wellington, and you are bringing proceedings practically before non-experts—Justices of the Peace. I do not wish to cast any reflection on the Justices, but do you not think it advisable, where you do not get a legal opinion beforehand, that the case should be brought before a legally trained man?—l think the Inspector should have the privilege of taking legal advice. It was the smaller breaches of the regulations I was referring to. 34. Mr. Cochrane.] In regard to quartz-mines, when you were Inspector, what was the greatestnumber of men employed in any one mine? —Probably ten or twelve men. 35. So that such a small number of men would not require a very large current of air? — Quartz-mines in this district are usually very shallow. 36. What is the depth of the deepest quartz-mine from the surface in this district? —I could not say offhand. 37. Can you say the approximate depth? Have you any quartz-mines over 200 ft. deep? — I think not, but I am not sure of the Barewood and the Waipori mines. 38. Mr. Reed.] Do you know the Barewood Mine? —Yes. 39. They are down about 500 ft. ? —I could not say. 40. As regards the dredges, if you look at section 254, subsection (37), it says that " once in every twelve months every boiler shall be subjected to an hydraulic test" : that applies to a dredge. It also requires that a book shall be kept in which shall be recorded the date and description of such test. Is that done on these fields I—Not1 —Not to nry knowledge. I had no control whatever over boilers, otherwise there would have been dual control with the Inspector of Machinery. 41. As far as you know the boilers are not tested? —They are periodically tested by the Inspector of Machinery. 42. As a matter of fact, between the Inspector of Mines and the Inspector of Machinery there is no hydraulic testing done? —Not that I am aware of.

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43. The Chairman."] Have you ever seen a book such as is required by that section to be kept? —No, I have never seen such a book. I have never interfered with boilers. 44. Mr. Reed.] A frequent cause of accident on dredges is the oiling and repairing of machinery while in motion : is there anything you can suggest to prevent that class of accident? We have nothing in the statute at present to prevent the men from oiling machinery while in motion ?—There is one regulation which says that these things shall be done to the satisfaction of the Inspector, but it is hard for him to see it carried out when his visits are so infrequent. The unly way would be to introduce legislation making it illegal for a man to go about the work while the machinery is in motion. That would be a difficult thing to regulate. You have to move about the machinery when it is working. I think that employees should be prohibited from oiling while the machinery is in motion. 45. There is machinery—some stationary engines, for instance—that cannot be oiled unless in motion? We considered this matter in the Head Office, and found it a rather difficult matter to legislate upon?—lt is difficult with the main engine. Men often lose fingers and finger-nails. It would be a serious thing to stop the main engine. 46. You would be in favour of legislation being introduced to prevent oiling, or repairing, or adjusting any dredge machinery while in motion? —It requires limitation; it would have to be subject to the approval of the Inspector. 47. But the Inspector could not be there at every contingency? —Then a general rule could be made. That is a case where an Inspector's powers ought to be sufficient to enable him to deal with the matter. 48. The Chairman.] Would you suggest that power be given to an Inspector to frame rules to govern the dredge in his own district? —Yes, provided they are not allowed to recoil on the Inspector himself. No matter how careful you are you cannot control six or seven men all the time. 49. Different conditions may require different rules. There is no power under the Act for the Inspector to deal with it?—l think that would be covered by the regulations I suggest that all these appliances shall be subject to the approval of the Inspector. 50. Mr. Seed.] Would you suggest that the words " oil or adjust any movable machinery of a dredge " be inserted in Rule No. 6?— l would like to state that when you visit Alexandra, if you see the Earnscleugh Electric No. 1 dredge, you will there see how it is possible to safeguard the men against accident by machinery. 51. Is it not a fact that men go aloft on windy days, with the result that their clothes get caught in the machinery? —I think the average dredgeman's clothing is not fitted for his work. 52. What is the defect about their clothing, and what would you suggest? —They generally wear old suits, and I would suggest close-fitting overalls. 53. Why?— Because there would then be no loose ends to catch in the machinery. 54. Have there been fatal accidents due to the loose garments being caught? —Yes, accidents have been ascribed to that. If they were close-fitting dungaree overalls the risk of accident would be reduced. 55. The Do you know these combination overalls? Can the men work comfortably in them?— Yes, in the ordinary course of dredging-work. Possibly when the men were coaling the suits might be inconvenient. But on a dredge there is not very much room to move about the machinery, and I think if the suits were worn it would have the effect of reducing the risk. 56. Mr. Reed,.] Can you tell us how the ]aw as to head-lines is observed, also with reference to the wearing of lifebelts by the men : do they comply with the requirements of the Act in those respects? —Yes. 57. In connection with the working of hydraulic elevators, do }"ou approve of an inexperienced man being left alone near an elevator without an experienced person in charge?—l am aware that on certain claims there is only one man on a shift, and I think that if the results obtained justify the working of the claim there should be two men. 58. Suppose both of those men were inexperienced?—lt is very difficult to get experienced men in this district. 59. Would you be in favour of a regulation making it compulsory that there should always be an experienced person in charge of operations at night on an alluvial claim?— Yes, provided it did not increase the cost to a great extent. 60. But we are looking at it from a life-saving point of view. In connection with that Round Hill accident those two men who lost their lives,were inexperienced?—l have no knowledge except that they were experienced. 61. Are you aware that Mr. Thomson, your successor, stated that he could have relieved the pressure and saved those men in ten seconds? —It is the customary practice in those claims, when anything gets stuck, to blow it out, but I am not aware how much water there was. 62. In the course of your inspections did you find the Act and regulations generally observed in the interests of human life?— Yes, though at the time of the boom there were a great many unreliable men placed in charge of mining operations. I think at present there is a fine class of men about the dredges. 63. Mr. Dowgray.] In reply to Mr. Cochrane you said that on an average the quartz-mines here do not employ more than ten men each? —Yes. 64. Have you had any experience of working in not places?— No. 65. Have you had any experience of taking temperatures with the wet and dry bulbs?—l have had no experience of it in any of the mines. 66. You will not be in a position, then, to tell us the effect upon the human frame?—No, T would not like to enter into the matter of temperature at all.

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67. Am 1 to understand, from your reply to Mr. Heed as to lighting, that you would be in favour of lights on dredges being improved if it were not that it would add to the cost of working 1 —Yes; that, is, to a certain extent. 1 think, for the dredges, if it wore possible to get electric light at small cost it would be far superior to kerosene. 68. In regard to experienced workmen being in charge of elevators, is that a matter of cost also/—1 would not put it that way altogether. 1 mean, provided that there were only two men it would be all the better if one were experienced. 69. The Chairman.] If there were only one man is there not all the more reason that lie should be an experienced man?— Except in large claims, after a man lias been a few days or a few weeks at the work he becomes experienced. 70. Mr. Dowgray.] In that case quoted by Mr. Reed the men were not experienced? — Unfortunately, that was merely a matter of conjecture, because there was no saying what predicament those men were in. 71. The Chairman.] Failing the Inspectors having the power to make these regulations, would you be in favour of the manager putting his men through a form of instruction? —I do not think there would be any improvement by the manager instructing the men, inasmuch as the instruction to be given is simply their daily work. 72. Mr. Dowgray.] In connection with that accident it would appear that the men did not know how to clean the valve : there must have been something wanting in their knowledge?— Yes. 73. I understood you to say there was some difficulty in getting experienced men : what is the cause I—lt1 —It is the result of the want of constant work, which in turn is due to the water-supply being so unreliable. 74. You suggested, that the men working in dredges should wear special clothing : who should purchase the clothing—the company or the men?— The men themselves. There should be regulations requiring them to wear those clothes. 75. Who should be saddled with the cost?— The men have to wear some sort of clothes, and dungaree suits are not very costly. 76. In cases of payment of compensation for accidents does it not rebound upon the company to pay the compensation? —No; the insurance companies pay if they take the risk. If it is shown that there was any negligence on the part of the oompany, of course, it is a different matter. 77. Mr. Molineaux.] When Inspector of Mines were you ever required to undertake other work apart from mining-work ?—I have had to undertake other classes of work for the Mines Department, but not outside the Department. 78. In what way? —Reporting on and certifying to different contracts for roads and bridges, and reporting on water-races for the Wardens. 79. The Chairman.] Did those contracts come under the Public Works or Mines Departments? —It was for Mines Department expenditure. 80. Mr. Molineaux.] Can you inform the Commission what part of your time was occupied in that work? —It occupied only a small percentage, but it naturally increased my working-hours a good deal. 81. The Chairman.] Did it rob you of time which should have been devoted to mining-work? —To a certain extent. It took away from the efficiency of the inspection. If I were coming to this district on county work it was necessary for me to send word, and thus my approach was heralded long before my arrival. 82. Mr. Molineaux.] Do you consider that the inspection of the mines is as much as a man can carry out? —Yes, I think the Inspector could be fully employed without being called upon to do any of this extraneous work at all. 83. Are you acquainted with the conditions in regard to such extra work in other parts of the Dominion? —Not first-hand, but I have a general knowledge. 84. Do you think that an Inspector should be asked to expend his time in such work?— No. 1 may say that, in the case of another officer witli whom I was connected, as well as myself, there was no limit to the time we were employed. 85. Mr. Dowgray.] I understand from your answer to Mr. Molineaux that it was almost impossible for you to pay a secret visit to a place like this when you had these extra works to attend to? Yes, secrecy was out of the question during the last few years. 86. The Chairman.] Was that attributable to the roadworks inspections, and so forth?— Pretty well. 87. Is it the custom for you to notify the County Councils when you are coming?— Yes, you must get into touch with the County Clerk. 88. Do you consider that your visits to the mines should be secret? —Yes, I consider that in the best interests of every one it is more just to all parties that it should be so, because there can be no , suspicion then of preparation being made for the visit of the Inspector. 89. Then I understand that in your opinion the inspection of mines could be carried out more efficiently if the Inspector were relieved of these extra duties? —I think so. Lewis Harms sworn and examined. (No. 58.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—l am secretary of the Rising Sun Gold-dredging Corn2. You have had a number of years' experience? —Yes, about twenty years, mostly at Luggate and the Nevis high lead. , . . . 3. What experience have you had as a miner? —About twenty years of alluvial mining m the "4. Have you had any experience of underground mining?—No, only at Skipper's and Macetown .

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5. How long ago? —In the " seventies." 6. You have had no recent experience?— No. 7. Have you had any experience of working in hot places?- Yes; once when we were driving for air we could stay only about ten. minutes in the place. 8. Have you seen temperatures taken so as to know what the temperature there would be? —No. 9. Have you anything to lay before the Commission? —There is one thing I would like to say. lv regard to accidents, especially on our dredge —the Rising Sun — 1 think if a man met with an accident there it would be his own fault, because there is plenty of room. In regard to alluvial claims, both those claims have electric light, and it is also installed on the Rising Sun dredge. 10. What do you say in regard to the necessity for the men to wear something in the nature i>l , combination overalls? —1 cannot say. Some of the men work in their shirt-sleeves and some in jumpers, but they are pretty careful. There is an old saying that familiarity breeds contempt. Perhaps the wearing of these close-fitting clothes would minimize the risk of accident. 11. Do you know the combination overall? — No. Of course, I know that accidents in machinery in factories or anywhere else are the result of people being dragged in. In regard to the oiling of machinery, I think our men generally do it at the change of shifts, when the engine is stopped. Of course, the main engine is always going. 12. You would make it compulsory that the bulk of the oiling should be done at the change of shifts? —It is done now. 13. But it may be done as a matter of work or convenience? —I could not say; that is for the dredgemaster to say. Mr. Scott, the dredgemaster of the Hartley and Riley, is present, and will be able to speak on the subject. 14. Mr. Dovjgray.] Are there any sanitary conveniences on that dredge?— Yes; we were compelled to put them in at the time Mr. Mclntosh was Inspector. 15. From your experience it is an improvement to have electric light on these dredges?— Yes, decidedly. 16. You think they should all be lit with it? —Yes, if they can afford it, but it is not every company which can afford it. They have to get their dynamos from Home. 'It is far safer to have electric light—the men can see what they are doing. I am certainly in favour of electric light if a company can afford it. Robert Scott sworn and examined. (No. 59.) 1. The Chairman.] You are v dredgemaster? —Yes. 2. What certificates do you hold? —A dredgemaster's certificate. 3. How many years' experience have you had? —I have been a dredgemaster for close on thirteen years, here and on the West Coast. 4. Have you anything to lay before the Commission, either by way of suggestions for mini mizing accidents or generally in "regard to dredging? —There is one thing I would like to call the attention of the Commission to, and that has reference to the making-fast of boats in currents, which, if generally practised, would be an improvement. Sometimes when there is a back eddy the boat has to be tied to a post by the stern, and there have been accidents caused through letting go the bow of the boat before the stern. I think the risk of accident would be avoided by having a bollard at the stern of the boat, and making it a rule that the rope must be taken over the bollard and made fast over where the bow is tied. A man could not then let the bow-rope go before letting go the stern. If the boat were tied by the bow and the stern a man, not knowing that the stern is tied, may let go the bow-rope and out goes her bow, and that is where the risk, of accident comes in. 5. Is not your suggested method in use now? —Yes, but it is not compulsory, and I think i( should be. There have been two men drowned that way to my knowledge. f>. You have heard the suggestion that the men should wear dungaree overalls on the dredges? - Yes, but I do not think you could legislate for that, because the men wear no jacket, but simply work 'with their sleeves rolled up. The trouble is principally caused by the trousers and loose laces getting entangled in the machinery. I do not think you could legislate as regards a man's clothes. One man may be careful enough, while you would have to chase another all the time to get him to keep his clothes buttoned up. 7. Mr. Molineaux.] With regard to stopping the machinery on a dredge ior oiling purposes, do you think that is necessary?— Yes, though there are cases where it is not necessary to make that provision, because some of them, oil only at the change of every shift. There are, however, dredges which run right through without stopping. There is provision already for that class. I think myself, as far as my experience goes, it should be left to the Inspector of Machinery, because a rule which may apply to one job will not apply to another. _ 8 They do not find it necessary to stop the ocean-going boats to oil?—lhat is a difierent matter altogether. We have gear on dredges which is hanging out on framing, which is not the case on steamers. It is the hot bearing which causes the trouble. 9 Supposing a bearing is running hot through the man not having oiled it when he should have done; he knows the boss will reprimand him, and in trying to oil it he will climb into places while the machinery is in motion where he has no right to-go. Should he not be able to get to any bearing to oil it? —It is utterly impossible in some cases. _ _ " 10 Mr. Beed.] You are aware that accidents are somewhat frequent through men repairing and oiling machinery while in motion? —Yes. 11 Now you have stated that you would leave the matter to the Inspector of Machinery : Ins that method of leaving it to an Inspector proved insufficient? If not, how have these accidents happened?—l could not say much upon that. I know that the Inspector has made me put up fences to avoid accidents, and I think he could deal with this matter in the same way.

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L' 2. But an Inspector cannot always be present/—Perhaps not. There is one thing which should be insisted upon, and that is the lighting. A man goes up above with a hand-lamp to attend to something, and when he gets hold of it perhaps his lamp goes out. Then he does not know where he is catching hold. 1 think that if you compel them to have an efficient system of lighting you will do more towards avoiding accidents on dredges than by any other means. 13. Would you specify what is efficient lighting? —I consider that electricity or acetylene gas is efficient, but not kerosene. 14. Would you be in favour of electricity or acetylene gas only being employed about dredges? —Yes. 15. But does not an acetylene-gas lamp go out too?— Not if it is protected. I think I was the firstto use acetylene gas on the West Coast; that was nine years ago. Of course, there is not much wind over there. 16. Are the acetylene-lamps harder to relight than the kerosene-lamp?— No. 17. Are you referring to a portable acetylene-lamp?—No, to one laid on. But I had a lamp in a well with 30 ft. of tubing on to it, and I think~it was even better than the electric light, because I could move it. 18. Would you be in favour of all machinery being stopped during oiling or repairing operations?—No, I think that would be asking too much. 19. Could you formulate regulations to exclude those portions of the machinery that might be permitted to be always going? —No; I think it should be left to the Inspector to decide when he inspects each dredge. 20. To make rules for each dredge?— Yes. 21. You would favour a rule being prepared by the Inspector for each dredge separately?— I really thought the Inspector had that power now. He has power to compel the manager of a dredge to fence off dangerous places. Of course, you cannot repair while the machinery is in motion. 22. The Chairman.] I understand you wish the rule to be enforced in the same way as the other regulations at present are enforced?— Yes, that the Inspector should specify what he requires in connection with each particular dredge—what may be oiled and what parts may not be oiled while in motion.

Alexandra Courthouse. —23rd September, 1911. Edwin Bidley Green examined. 1, The Chairman.] You have some tables to submit to the Commission? —Yes, I produce three tables, showing (1) the dredging fatalities in the Southern Mining District during 1909, 1910, and 1911; (2) the non-fatal accidents on dredges during the same period; (3) the accidents in quartz-mines, and (4) accidents in alluvial mines during that period. [Exhibit No. 16 put in.] John Henry Davidson sworn and examined. (No. 60.) 1. The Chairman.] You are secretary of the Otago and Southland Coal-miners' Union? —Yes. 2. What are you by occupation? —A miner. 3. Working in Alexandra?--Well, I am secretary of the union now, but I was originally a miner. 4. You do nothing else now but act as secretary to the union? —No. 5. In the course of your duties as secretary have you found anything at all which you wish to bring before the Commission—any matters which you consider requires improvement or remedying? —No. C. You have found things satisfactory in your district?—We do. We have no complaints to make. If anything requires attention we inform the Inspector of Mines, and it is always satisfactorily arranged. 7. Mr. Dowgray.] What is your opinion in connection with the lighting on dredges as a matter of safety? It appears that some of them are lit by kerosene-lamps?—l do not know that it makes much difference how they are lit. I have heard no complaints about the lighting, but I am not in a position to speak on the subject. 8. As secretary of the union do the dredges come under your supervision?— Yes. 9. You have never heard any complaints from the men in regard to the lighting?—No; any complaint that is made to us is sent right to the Inspector of Mines, and our experience has been that they are always looked into by him. 10. Do you find that the visits of the Inspector of Mines are conducted in a secret manner, or does everybody know when he is coming? —I could not tell you. Ido not know when he is coming. Louis Anderson sworn and examined. (No. 61.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a dredgemaster ?—Yes. 2. How many years' experience have you had? —Over twenty-two years. 3. How long have you been a dredgemaster?—Over twenty years. 4. You hold a certificate? —Yes, a dredgemaster's certificate. 5. Is there any matter which you can suggest to the Commission to improve the conditions under which dredges are worked? —No, I do not think I have anything to suggest. Everything seems to be carried on satisfactorily. 6. Mr. Molineausc.] Can you inform the Commission as to what is the usual manner of mooring a boat alongside a dredge in a swift-flowing river? —Well, we generally have a painter on board.

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7. To moor the boat by both bow and stern?— No. 8. is there not a danger of the bow-line being let go first?— Sometimes; if a man is careless that might happen. 9. Is it not the usual practice to make the stern-line fast to a bollard? —Not in my experience. 10. If that were done would that not have a tendency to reduce the possibility of an accident ! —No, not so far as my experience goes. We do not have a stern-line in our boat. 11. And you think there is no danger of letting the bow-line go first if the boat is moored bow and stern? —No, you would travel on the side-lines back and forward if you want to go ashore. 12. I am talking about a boat?—l understand. 1.3. Have you known any instances where accidents have happened through bow-lines being let go first?—l have not seen it, but I have heard of such accidents happening in this locality. 14. Can you offer any suggestion as to how that could be obviated? —No, 1 do not know any man working on a dredge who would be so forgetful. 15. But it would be a safeguard if a man had to let go the stern-line before the bow-line? — Yes, most decidedly. In a swift current I would not allow a stern-line on a boat so far as I am concerned. When you are taking coal aboard, of course, sometimes you do, but at any other time you do not want any stern-line at all in a current. 16. Mr. Cochrane.] What are the most dangerous operations in dredging now?— Well, the river is supposed to be dangerous because of the boating question. 17. Is that in regard to coaling? —Not only then, but at almost all times. 18. More dangerous than the oiling of the machinery?— Well, of course, when machinery is in motion it would not be safe to oil it, but you generally stop it. 19. Have you any suggestions to offer as to the danger in boating?—No, because I think every precaution is taken so far as boating is concerned, and any accidents which happen cannot really be avoided. 20. Mr. Beed.\ Would you be in favour of a regulation to prevent men oiling or attending to machinery while in motion ?—Well, as a general rule, they have the dredge stopped every shift for oiling. 21. Are you aware that a good many accidents have occurred through men working about machinery and oiling and adjusting it while it is in motion?— There are a few, I admit, but accidents will happen at any time. 22. As you make a practice of it, would you be in favour of a regulation being made to the effect that all machinery should be stopped? —Yes; and other dredges about here do it also. 23. So that it would be no Hardship if it were made compulsory?— No. '24:. In connection with men getting drawn into the machinery by their clothing, would you be in favour of a rule being made that all men on dredges should wear a tight garment, either coat or jersey?— Well, I do not know. Perhaps it would be safer, but I have known men caught when wearing engineers' suits. 25. So that you would not be in favour,of men being compelled to wear tight-fitting clothing such as engineers' suits?— No. 26. As regards boilers on dredges, do you think they should be examined and tested periodically?— Yes, they are tested every twelve months. In Victoria they test them every three months 27. Is the Victorian test the same as ours?— No. 28. Which is the better test?— The New Zealand one. 29. Do they carry out an hydraulic test here?—No, I have not seen it carried out here. 30. But they do in Victoria? —Yes, there is no other test there. 31. Then do you not think the Victorian is the better system?— Not to my idea. 32. But suppose you wish to work a boiler with 601b. of working-pressure, and you test it with 901b. of water, is it better that a boiler should burst with water and injure nobody than burst with steam and kill everybody near it?—l admit that; but if you test a boiler with cold water you have to renew the tubing very often. 33. But a boiler usually has a safety factor of 10—that is, if it is to work with 1001b. pressure it will probably require a pressure of I,ooolb. per square inch to burst it. Do you not think it would be a very inadequate test to test it with 1501b.?—It is generally tested with a great deal more pressure than that. 34. But if a boiler bursts under such a small pressure do you not think it is better out of the way? —Perhaps so. 35. You have not had any boilers burst locally?— No. 36. Supposing one did burst would the men be killed? —I am afraid they would. 37. Then there would be a great many complaints? —Yes. 38. Is the practice of wearing lifebelts when cariying out head-lines followed? —Yes, so far as I know. 39. The men are more careful on the dredges than they used to be?— Yes, they are careful. 40. The inspection is very thorough and complete?— Yes. 41. Mr. Doivgray.] You are aware that the law provides for a hydraulic test? —Yes. 42. What is the reason for the law not being carried out in that respect?—l do not know. 43. You know it is in the law, and that the results of the test must be recorded in a reportbook ?—Yes. 44. Is that done in the dredges here? —Well, I have never seen it done. You might do it for your own safety. 45. What Inspector did you refer to? —To the Inspector of Machinery. 46. Does he not insist upon your keeping a report-book?— No. 47. How does he inspect a boiler? —He examines it all over. 48. He first looks at it? —And taps it with a hammer.

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49. Do you consider that is an efficient test? —Well, if the man is experienced he knows by the sound if the boiler is in a satisfactory condition. 50. If it satisfies the Inspector of Machinery you are quite satisfied? —That is so. 51. In no instance has an hydraulic test been insisted upon here?— Not as far as I know, but the boilers are generally tested in that way when they are new. 52. What is your opinion as to the lighting of these dredges with a view to averting accidents? —I admit you cannot beat electric light, but on some dredges kerosene-lamps are used. In some cases I admit the lighting could be better. 53. Would acetylene-lamps be an improvement? —Yes, they are better than kerosene-lamjDs. 54. Would you be in favour of legislation being passed to compel an improvement being made in the lighting of these dredges?—l do not think I would go so far as that, but certainly electric light or acetylene gas is better than kerosene. 55. It might prevent accidents if there were better lighting on the dredges? — Well, there have not been any accidents as the result of insufficient lights. 56. What has been the nature of the accidents which have come under your personal observation ? —Well, I have had no accidents in all my dredging experience. Charles Weaver sworn and examined. (No. 62.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a dredgemaster ? —Yes, in the Electric No. 2. 2. How many years' experience have you had?— About sixteen or seventeen years. 3. On the Molyneux? —Yes. 4. Mr. Molineaux .] Your dredge is driven by electricity? —Yes, we have two dredges driven by electricity. 5. Will you tell the Commission what precautions against accident are taken in connection with the power ?—Well, certain instructions are issued to our workmen with regard to handling the lighting and dead cables —that is, when the power is on. If anything goes wrong with the cables so that they cannot communicate with the power-house they have to use rubber gloves, mats, and tongs. There is a switch on board to disconnect the power, and also on the shore to disconnect the leads from the bare wire into the cables, and from thence on board the dredge. If there is no communication between the power-house and the dredge, by using these articles — the rubber gloves, mats, and tongs —the men can disconnect the power at their will. Then, if there are any repairs required, they can lower the cables with safety. 6. How long does it take under ordinary conditions for a man from the dredge to reach those switches on shore you speak of? —In our instructions we allow a quarter of an hour for a man to come ashore from the dredge, or, rather, a quarter of an hour is allowed from the time any damage takes place to a cable. For instance, at the power-house we have ground-lines which indicate anything wrong with the cables or power-lines. In all probability the man at the power-house knows before the man on the dredge. He would then switch the current off; but if he does not do so the man on the dredge is rung up from the power-house and informed as to what is the trouble. If there is no communication between the power-house and the dredge the power is shut off at the power-house. He then looks round his power-line, for it is generally there that the trouble takes place. We have never had any trouble with the transmission-line. He knows then that the power will be switched on again in a quarter of an hour. He has a quarter of an hour to get ashore to those switches and pull them out. He uses the gloves, mats, and tongs to do so, and he can with safety switch off the power even after twenty minutes. 7. And how long under ordinary circumstances does it take a man to get to those switches ashore from the dredge? —Seven minutes. 8. Is there always more than one man on the dredge who understands the taking-out of those switches?— Both men are instructed in the work. There are two men on each shift. 9. How many men have you working in the afternoon and night shifts? —There arc usually two men on each shift, and sometimes there are also five or six men repairing. The two men are the winchman, who attends to the bucket-chains, and a greaser, who looks after the greasing of the motors and all other gear. The winchman is usually in charge, and has the chief control of the machinery. 10. In the course of your experience in dredging what is your opinion as to the principal cause of accidents? —Well, in swift-flowing rivers most of the accidents have been in the streams. 11. During the last two years have there been any accidents of that class? —No, not that I know of. There is always an odd case, however —the unaccountable accident. 12. Do you consider there could be any improvement made in the boating on these rivers— any improvement that might tend to prevent accidents?—No, I do not think there is any improvement needed if the men are experienced. 13. Is there any difficulty in getting experienced men to work on the dredges?— Yes, there is some difficulty in getting good men just now; there is just about the requisite number of men engaged in dredge-work. 14. How long do you think a man takes to become experienced in boating? —Well, on a swiftflowing river a man generally needs from two to three years before he can be termed an experienced man. 15. There has been a considerable number of accidents caused by oiling and repairing machinery while in motion : can you give us any suggestions on that point? —Well, as far as my experience goes, the accidents are caused by the manner in which the men approach the bearing. In the case of wheel gearing, if they approach from the side on which they are running together, there is a tendency for anything to get into the gearing; it is natural for it to haul into it anything it may come into contact with. But if they are approached from the opposite side there should be little danger even if a man fell up against the wheel. I think that a suitable

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covering should be provided to obviate any trouble of that sort. Other things which have given trouble are collars, studs, and ends of spindles or shafts. The Inspector has given instructions to have the collars hooded or protected. A collar is apt to catch in a part of a man's clothing so as to twist his arm round. 16. AVould you suggest that the men should be compelled by regulation to wear close-fitting clothes 1- —Well, there is not the slightest doubt that a proper close-fitting sleevelet would obviate a great deal of the trouble, but even with them, a button may not be fastened, and that is as bad as anything. Still, I think it would be an improvement. 17. You think there is but little danger to careful men? —Yes, a great deal depends upon the care a man takes. Some men, on the impulse of the moment, will put their hands in between (he spokes of a wheel, and you canaot provide for that sort of thing. 18. At what intervals is it usual to wash mats on dredges? —In former years our own practice was to wash them on Saturday mornings, but as the winter approaches we usually do it on Friday afternoons. 19. They are not washed daily?— Not on any dredges I have ever had to deal with. 20. With regard to the testing of boilers on dredges, do you consider that a verj' thorough inspection of the boilers is made by the Inspector of Machinery? Is the inspection at present, made not of more use or benefit than would be the test by hydraulic means?— Well, they usually inspect the boilers under steam once every two years, and they also make an inspection with a dry boiler. If there is anything which they consider a defect they reduce the pressure of the steam. 21. As a dredgemaster, do you consider that course is satisfactory?—l have seen boilers reduced in pressure, and there has not been any trouble in connection with it. 22. You have never known of any accidents which might have been averted had the hydraulic test been carried out?—l have never seen it put into operation here. 23. The Chairman.] Have you ever known of accidents through boiler-explosions?— Not in this district. I fancy I have heard of them on the West Coast, but I think that was the result of putting gelignite on top of a boiler to heat it. 24. Mr. Molineaux.] Do you consider it likely that an hydraulic test over a working test is likely to strain a boiler? —Well, I know that in connection with the first hydraulic test they make of boilers there is a considerable amount of water escapes, but they do not seem to give any bother afterwards in regard to the rivet-holes and caulkings. 25. Mr. Heed.] Mr. Molineaux made reference to the " very thorough test " which is made by the Inspector of Machinery. Now, subsection (37) of section 254 of the Mining Act states that " once in every twelve months every such boiler shall be subjected to an hydraulic test, and the date and full description of every such test and cleansing shall be entered in a book." Were you aware that that was in the statutes? —No, I was not aware of that. 26. Is that carried out in the district? —No. 27. Would you regard the test that is carried out as a very thorough test? It is a breach of the law? —I consider that the man who tests the boiler has all the particulars about it and the pressure it is going to stand, and he knows exactly what it is capable of doing. There is no doubt that that is what you might call a double test, and would be a very thorough test. 28. Do you know what a factor of safety is? —Yes. 29. Would you consider a new boiler should have a factor of 8 or 10—that is, that the breaking-strain should be about ten times the working-pressure? —Yes. 30. In connection with the hydraulic test, are you aware that the hydraulic test is about one and a half times the working-pressure?— Yes. 31. If the water test is only about one-fifth of the breaking-strain 2 —Well, I understand that the boiler inspector would reduce the pressure and insist upon the lesser pressure being the maximum if he thought there was a defect in the boiler and it was not capable of carrying the full pressure. 32. The Act does not specify the hydraulic pressure : that is left to the boiler-tester, is it not? —Yes. 33. Supposing you wish to work that boiler at 100 lb. of steam and it was tested at one and a half times that pressure, and the boiler were to burst at 150 lb. of water, would you not regard it as better that way ? —Yes, that is so; but I have never seen boilers tested that way before. 34. Would you be in favour of removing the hydraulic test from the statute-book?— Well, on the face of it it looks as though that is the proper thing to do, but I am not in a position to say whether that should be done. Still, there may be some answer of which we do not know. 35. Do the boiler inspectors take some time? —Well, I know they are pretty particular. 36. And the Inspector just looks at the boiler for a short or long time as he pleases?—ln our own case the Inspector sends word that he will arrive on a certain day, and you must have everything nicely cleaned up, and he generally makes a thorough inspection. 37. But he does not observe the law? —He certainly does not use the water test; but I have known cases where they have reduced the pressure. 38. Are you aware of the mining law in other countries as regards hydraulic tests?— No. 39. Would you be surprised to learn that in every State of Australia and nearly every British country the hydraulic test is compulsory?— That may be so, but I know there are boilers comiiig here from outside which would not stand that test. 40. Would you expect a boiler from America to do anything else? —I think it ought to do. 41. Would you be in favour of the statute being altered to prevent the oiling of machinery while in motion? —No.

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42. Why not?— Because there is a considerable amount of gear on a dredge to which very little has to be done; and, moreover, all the bearings on our dredge are quite sufficiently guarded for any person with care to oil them without stopping the machinery. But for oiling all friction and main gear on a dredge or an engine, with the exception of those two particular things, the machinery should be- stopped. With a centrifugal pump or an elevator, and many classes of bearings which are easy to get at, there is no necessity for stopping the dredges for oiling purposes. 43. So that you would be in favour of a regulation to prevent oiling those particular parts when the machinery is in motion? —I would be in favour of stopping the engine for oiling friction gear; it is impossible to oil it satisfactorily otherwise. 44. You are aware that accidents happen through men getting drawn into the machinery ? -Yes. 45. Are not those proper guards you spoke of compulsory now? —That is so. 46. Then, in cases where those accidents happen, they are improper or unsatisfactory guards? —Well, they are not improper guards in the sense that the Inspector of Machinery authorizes their use in certain cases. Sometimes the guards are taken down, however, and not put back again; I have seen accidents happen as a result of that neglect on the part of the men. The provisions have been carried out as required by the Inspector. As a rule, it is the things which are likely to get caught in a man's sleeve which are first pointed out by the Inspector and required to be guarded. 47. Do you know anything of the accident to Patrick Gallagher on the Enterprise dredge? —No. 48. Mr. Cochrane.] Have you been in charge of dredges which used steam for power?— Yes, I have been in charge of steam dredges since 1876. 49. Is the supplying of coal to dredges not a very dangerous operation?—At times there is a little danger, but not usually in paddock dredges. 50. But in the river? —Yes, in swift-flowing rivers. 51. Is it very dangerous?— Not more so than the ordinary working of a dredge. 52. Have you any recommendation to make for greater safety in regard to that? —Well, the Inspector requires certain provisions to be observed —for instance, you must have lifebelts, ropes, boat-hooks, and life-saving appliances; and he insists upon these being kept ready for use in case of accident. 53. And do you think that meets the case? —Yes, I think the only thing not provided for is a faulty boat and an inexperienced man. 54. Then, as to gearing, I think you recommended suitable coverings or guards?— Yes, for all gearing outside main friction gearing. 55. Do you consider, then, that the present arrangements are not satisfactory?—No, our company has been running for some six years, and we have a greaser who attends to all the machinery and greases all the gear. We have two of these machines working, and we have not had many serious accidents to the men. We have always kept suitable guards on any wheels likely to give trouble. 56. Do you consider the present regulations sufficient?— Yes, I think they are. 57. Now, as to the hydraulic test for boilers, in your opinion is the present test by the Inspector of Machinery sufficient? —So far as my experience has gone it is. 58. The Chairman.] You are judging from results? —Yes. 59. You have never met with accidents? —No; directly any defect appears in the boilers the head of steam is reduced. 60. Mr. Cochrane.] Are you in favour of or against the high-pressure test?—l would not like to give an answer to this question. 61. Mr. Dowgray.] In answer to Mr. Molineaux you said you had rubber gloves, mats, and tongs for working the electrical switches : have you had them very long?— Yes, two years or more. 62. How long has your dredge been working by electricity?— Six years. 63. So that for four years you did not have those appliances?— That is so. 64. You also stated that there were certain rules posted up for the workmen to observe?— Yes. 65. You as dredgemaster look to the men to observe those regulations?— Certain instructions have been posted up, and latterly we have gone further and asked the men to sign them as having read and understood them. The men thoroughly understand what is in these instructions. If they were not asked to sign them they might just see the notice and forget about it in ten minutes. 66. Still, you as dredgemaster look to thep. to carry out these rules? —Yes, and they generally do so. 67. And if they do not carry them out they are unfit for the job?— Yes. 68. And yet you admit to Mr. Reed that as dredgemaster you do not carry out the requirements of the Act ?—ln what way ? 69. In regard to the hydraulic test, which the Act requires to be made by the mine-managers and dredgemasters and entered in a book kept for the purpose, and which is to be open for inspection by the Inspector?—He generally gives us a certificate, and that is the only receipt we get. 70. You think, that if this hydraulic test were insisted upon the boilers would burst? —They might. 71. The Chairman.] Have you ever been asked for the record of the hydraulic test either by the Inspector of Machinery or the Inspector of Mines? —No. 72. Mr. Dowgray.] You did not know there was such a section in the Act? —-No. 73. In reply to Mr. Reed you said that some of these guards on the machinery are at times pulled down and not replaced, and that accidents have occurred as the result? —Certainly, 43—C. 4.

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74. Then, if they were not replaced, was not that due to the negligence of the dredgemaster 1 —Yes. 75. The Chairman.] Would you be in favour of the law being amended so that the Inspector of Mines should have power to make regulations to deal with particular dredges, either as to oiling machinery or generally, and that failure to comply with those rules be made compulsory? —I think that would meet the case. 76. And for the Inspector to lay down for each dredge what parts could be oiled while in motion and which parts should not be oiled except when the machinery is stopped, and that he should be able to enforce those regulations the same as he can enforce those under the Act? — Yes, I think that would meet the case. 77. Mr. Dowgra.y.] In regard to the lighting of these dredges, as to kerosene and electricity? —Well, in former years it was mostly kerosene that was used. Ido not know that any accidents happened through the machinery not being sufficiently lit up, but in later years they have gone in for electricity and acetylene gas, and I must say the acetylene has given good results. We have always been lit up with electricity. 78. That is a matter upon which the Inspector should be able to make regulations similar to other matters?— Yes. I might mention that a dredge lit by kerosene would cost about three times as much as electricity to give the same light. 79. And as to acetylene?— That is about the cheapest form of lighting. 80. Would you be in favour of a clause being inserted in the Act compelling the use of acetylene or electricity? —I do not know enough about acetylene. I know of one case at Black's where it blew up. I would prefer to keep to the light I know best. There are a good many objections to kerosene; it means a lot of glasses and cleaning. We find that to install a small electriclighting plant is more effective —you get more light for less money. Rebfton Courthouse. —20th October, 1911. Thomas Otto Bishop examined. 1. The Chairman.] You are the Inspector of Mines for this district? —Yes. 2. And you have statements to put in in regard to the mines in the district? —Yes, analyses and measurements of the air in the mines. [Exhibit No. 22 put in.] You will notice that the analyses are not dated. With one exception the dates are the same for the measurements as for the air-analyses. Mark Fagan sworn and examined. (No. 63.) 1. The Chairman.] What are am workmen's inspector for the Inangahua Miners' Union. 2. Do you hold any other office in the union? —I am also secretary of the union. 3. What is your membership?— One thousand and five. 4. Does that represent all the miners in the field ?—Well, there are, roughly, seven hundred and fifty to eight hundred miners in the union ; the rest of the members are labourers employed at other occupations about the mines. 5. Does your union include the whole of the miners in the district?— Yes. 6. You say the membership is seven hundred and fifty? —From seven hundred and fifty to eight hundred; it fluctuates. 7. You know the scope of this Commission : have you discussed the matters which you wish to bring under our notice?— Yes, we have held meetings and decided upon certain recommendations which we wish to make to the Commission. 8. Have you the authority of your union to speak in regard to these matters?— Yes. 9. Have you had any personal experience of mining? —Yes, I have had seventeen years' experience as a miner—four years and a half in quartz-mines in New Zealand, on the Coast; and I have also worked in copper-mines, silver-mines, and quartz-mines in Western Australia, Victoria, Tasmania, New South Wales, and Queensland. 10. Do you hold any mining certificates? —No, my occupation has simply been that of a practical miner. 11. Now, what do you wish to bring before the Commission? —Firstly, I wish to refer to the frequency of accidents in mines. For instance, during the two years between June, 1909, and June, 1911, there have been 215 accidents in these mines. 12. That is, in the local mines? —Yes, accidents to members of the union. 13. Can you classify the accidents? How many were fatal? —Three have been fatal. 14. How long ago?— All of them in 1910. 15. Have there been any serious accidents, disabling men either permanently or partially?— Yes, such as accidents by explosives, which have caused a man to lose the sight of one eye, and men suffering from rupture. 16. How many men were permanently disabled? —None. 17. Then, partially disabled, as to be continuously disabled so that there was no chance of recovery, such as the loss of an eye? —I could not give you the exact figures. 18. Out of that number I suppose a great many were minor accidents? —Yes. 19. Have you them divided up?— There were thirty-seven accidents described as "poisoned hands," due to poisonous pieces of quartz getting into the blood when a man's hand was out. 20. Can you. tell us with any degree of certainty how these accidents occurred—the fatal ones first?— Two were caused by a premature explosion while the men were firing: a large machine round of holes in a dead-end, I think there were eleven holes bored, and they were attempting

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to fire the lot with ordinary fuse. There is nothing to show what actually happened, but in the case of the fatal accident to the two men in the Energetic Mine in 1910 three of the holes they were firing were not spit at all. The leading hole went before they could spit the last three holes, and both men were killed. The third fatal accident —in the same mine—was caused by an unoertificated person having hold of the winding-engine. In regard to minor accidents it is interesting to note that the accident payments made during the two years I have quoted amounted to £1,193 18s. id. 21. In regard to that explosion have yo\i any suggestion to offer with a view to minimizing the risk of accidents of that class? —Yes, I think that those men were attempting to fire too many holes, and from the evidence given they were attempting to fire them in too great a hurry. They were contracting, and, judging from the evidence, it would seem they left pretty late. What I suggest is that it should not be left to a man to fire his own holes. There should be certain men— shot-firers —set apart for that purpose—men who would go round and have nothing else to do. 22. Have you had any experience of a mine where shot-firers were employed? —Yes, in Western Australia. 23 In which mine?— The Great Boulder. 24. Were they constantly employed? —Only in portions of the mine. 25. How was the work carried out in those portions of the mine? —Principally by daylabour. 26. And how many men would one shot-firer attend to? —It would depend. I was working in No. 1 level, and there were about fifteen pairs of men in that level, and there was a magazine there for the fracture. 27. Who charges the holes? —The shot-firer. 28. And how did that system work with regard to loss of time? For instance, a shot-firer might be wanted in different places at once: how was it arranged? —Ihey get half an hour, roughly, to do the work. It has to be done during crib-time, between five minutes before cribtime and while the men are having their crib. 29. Has the shot-firer not to hurry over the work and fire a lot of holes? —He would have to do so if the district were too large. 30. Have you had any experience in New Zealand of shot-firers?—No; but I have heard of them being employed in coal-mines. 31. Do you know of any shot-firers being employed in an}- of the metal-mines of New Zealand? —No. 32. Have you had any experience of electric shot-firing?— Yes. 33. What is your experience of that? —I think it is a good thing, and it should be the only method by which a round of holes should be fired in shafts, or in any place from which it is difficult to get away. 34. Have you any opinion to offer as to the use of electric batteries for firing a large number of holes? —Yes, that is what I mean. 35. And for a straight drive where you have a round of holes to fire such as you mentioned just now?— Yes, 1 think that should be a place where a battery should be used. 36. How many holes do you consider it is safe for a man to fire with the ordinary handfuse?— 1 should say it would not be safe for even an experienced man to fire more than five. 37. With all reasonable care?— Yes. It may he that it is in a rise, say, up 150 ft., and he has to climb that distance before the first shot explodes. 38. But I mean in development-work—in a straight-ahead drive? —I should say that five fuses should be the limit. Of course, some men are experienced and will boast that they can spit fifteen or twenty, but it generally happens that they try it once too often. 39. Have you had any experience of instantaneous fuse? —No. 40. You have not seen it used? —No; I have heard of it, but J have had no experience of it. 41. You are not in a position to offer an opinion as to whether it is dangerous or whether it should be used with restrictions? —The only time I have heard of its being used was when those two men were killed with it on the railway-works near Westport. 42. Have you any other suggestion to offer in regard to minimizing the risk of accidents when firing? —No, except the compulsory use of the electric battery in shafts and development-work. 43. Would the use of the electric battery do away with the necessity for shot-firers?—l should think that then the shot-firer would be more necessary, because it is necessary to have a man thoroughly conversant with the work. 44. Have you found any difficulty in manipulating the electric battery?—lt takes a man with some knowledge. I have found that the men do not care about using it; they have no confidence in it. I urged the Inspector of Mines to make the Blackwater Company provide electric batteries, because in that mine it was difficult to get away by the ladderways. The men had to climb 125 ft. to 130 ft. to get away. We had a difficulty in getting the men to use the battery —they were frightened of it. For that reason I say that where batteries are in use it is necessary to have shot-firers. 45. And as to misfires with the battery? —I have not seen any more unexploded gelignite in a working-face after the use of the battery thaa with fuse. 46. Have you seen as much?—l have seen it from both. 47. Did you ever know of hangfires with the electric battery—the shot to hang for an appreciable time?—No; in every case where I have had occasion to use the battery it has either exploded or else it has been a misfire. 48. Now, as to other accidents : have you anything to suggest as to the winding accidents —that is, without reopening the whole question? We know the fact that a man was killed, and

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an inquiry was held into the matter. Have you any suggestion to make with a view to preventing such an accident occurring again, or minimizing the chance of its doing so ?—No, 1 believe an amendment has been added to the Mining Act to make a recurrence of that accident impossible. 49. Which is that?— Whereby no one is allowed in the engine-room except the certificated driver while men are being raised or lowered. 50. You think that is a sufficient safeguard? —Yes, I. think that will prevent a recurrence of such an accident as that. 51. Have you any other suggestion to offer under the heading of engines and winding? —1 would like to discuss the new code of signals, which Ido not concur in. I think if it is allowed to remain in force it will lead to accidents. In the Globe Mine, at the new shaft, there are, roughly speaking, from, seven hundred to eight hundred extra knocks per shift of eight hours required under the new code as compared with those required under the old system. The old code was much simpler, and I do not know of any accident occurring by reason of it. 52. You consider the old signals were quite effective? —Yes, they were better. 1 do not know what signals were in force in other parts of New Zealand. 1 do not think these are an improvement. And under this heading I would like to point out that an engine-driver, who has perhaps got his ticket driving on a field like this, may have .been driving for four or five years, and will have become used to the signals. There is a likelihood of either the engine-driver, «>r the chamberman, or the braceman getting mixed up when asked to work on a new set of signals. It is dangerous to ask those engine-drivers to listen to seven hundred or eight hundred bells more than he has been accustomed to. The knock on this field for " Men on " has been " three and a pause paid 1," while under the new code it is a straight four; and when 1 point out that a straight three means quartz it will be seen that that is likely to be mistaken for a straight four. I think the pause is apt to give a degree of safety. Another thing in connection with knocking for a cage of mullock : a chamberman might be getting dirt from a given level and they may have been winding pretty fast, and he may have sent his last truck up, but the driver above, of course, does not know that, and before the chamberman gives the fourth knock the engine-driver may take the cage away. I think the three and one is the better signal, and the straight three for mullock. The new code is too much like a straight four. It certainly is not as good as the old signal. 53. Have you an engine-drivers' association or union, or do they form part of your union , / —Some of them are in our union, but they have a union of their own; but they intend to speak for themselves. I know there has been a good deal of dissatisfaction. 54. Are you speaking on their behalf?—No, on behalf of the workers underground. 55. Have you anything further to add in regard to winding? —Under that heading might come the cages in use on this field. At back and front they are open in nearly every case. 56. Is not that provided for? —I do not mean on the side of the shafts —I mean where guides or skids come into contact with the cage, and with portion of the cage being open it would be a very bad thing in the event of a cage striking a loose skid when descending. A man may have his back to the skidway. If a guide happened to be swinging in the shaft there is nothing to stop the guide going up through the cage and cutting through the man. It may swing clear of the cage and be swinging about in the shaft, and get into the cage in that manner. It is quite possible that the cage may just pass the loose guide and it may swing into the cage. There is also nothing in the Mining Act to compel the presence of an engine-driver whilst men are underground. It says that he shall not leave his engine while it is working, but there is nothing to compel the presence of an engine-driver while men are underground. It frequently happens in small mines, and when development-work is being done on night-work, to save engine-drivers' wages, that the evening shift engine-driver will lower the night shift and go home. Then perhaps there would be anything from five to ten men below and no driver on the surface, and I contend that if an accident happened the men would be in a very bad position. A man may get a cut and be bleeding to death, and there would be no driver there to wind him to the surface. Therefore it is necessary for the Mining Act to be amended in that respect. Another thing is that provision should be made to compel the owners to prevent a chamberman and braceman to remain at their posts. I have seen it happen on this field in small mines, where the braceman would lower the shift and then go below himself. In my opinion the braceman should be in charge at the mine all the time and not leave his post, and the same should apply to the chamberman. 57. Do you have a chamberman for each level? —No, one chamberman for one mine. Then, in connection with this matter, I think the Mining Act should make provision to make it compulsory for levers to be placed on all knocker-lines v The present is a dangerous practice. The men have to get out into the shaft to pull the knocker-lines. The levers should be placed in all chambers. It would not only be easier for the chamberman, but there would not be the same risk. .58. Would the use of levers tend to make the knocks more distinct and regular?—l think so, and also a man would not have to put his head out into the shaft when he wants to pull the knocker-line. Under that heading, also, I think it should be distinctly stated that none but the person in charge—that is, the chamberman —should interfere with the knocker-line. The MiningAct at present is not sufficiently clear on that point. I think a stiff penalty should be inflicted on any person other than the chamberman interfering with the signal-line. My reason is that in small mines, and sometimes in the larger ones, a man who is a boss thinks he has the right to do as he likes in the matter of ringing up and down the shaft, and by ringing himself to the surface he may be the means of injuring the chamberman or somebody else. 59. Practically, you think the cage ought always to be in charge of the chamberman?—Yes. There should be a stiff penalty provided for any man but the chamberman interfering with the knocker-line. Iα some mines in this field a very loose system exists in regard to this matter, and every Tom, Dick, and Harry catches hold of the knocker-lines, I do not say that applies to

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every mine on the field, but I think the penalty should be provided, because the engine-driver does not know where he is. Then, you asked me if I had anything to suggest as to accidents in connection with firing. I have frequently noticed on this field when inspecting that there are no tamping-sticks used in the stopes. 1 have seen nothing but a scraper to put fracture into the hole. The Act should be amended to provide for the supply of tamping-sticks on all levels. The onus should be upon the company to provide them. In some mines here, if a man wants a wooden tamping-stick, he has to go into the bush and cut one himself. Then, again, Ido not think there is any provision in the Mining Act to compel a company to keep first-aid appliances at the mine. A man may get hurt underground, and I think it should be compulsory that each company should have ambulance and first-aid appliances on the surface always ready for use. 1 would suggest that they should be kept in the engine-room, and that the engine-driver should have charge of the key, which should be accessible to the men below at all hours of the day and night. 60. Have you any suggestion to offer in regard to the make of stretcher 1 Have you seen the stretcher at the Big River Mine? —Yes, I think such a stretcher should be provided at every mine in the field. It is known as Bain's patent. An injured man can by that means be lowered or raised after being strapped in. If a man had a leg broken it would be a very painful operation without the stretcher to bring him to the surface. I find that during the last two years thirtyseven men have suffered from what have been described in the medical certificates as poisoned wounds. On this field there are no facilities at the mines for the men to bath after leaving their work. There is no warm water provided. A man may get a cut when below, and with no warm water to wash it, and in a cold climate like Reefton, he may sleep all night with the poisonous matter in the wound, which results in the wound festering. That would not happen if there were proper means at the mines for cleansing wounds. 61. You do not know that that is the cause of these poisoned wounds —it is only your own idea 1 The doctor will be called, and he will be able to say as to that ?—I am. speaking from personal experience on this field. I have had it happen to myself. 62. You recommend that bath and change houses be provided? —Yes, undoubtedly. I think, as far as bath-houses and change-houses are concerned, it should be compulsory for each man to have at least a dressing-room in bath-houses to be provided at all mines. Each man should have at least 2 ft. to 2 ft. 6 in. in which to dress, and the rooms should be in charge of some person whose duty it should be to keep them clean. There should be lockers to keep their clean clothes in. It should be compulsory on all mine-owners to provide these bath-houses, and I suggest that there should be no plunge-baths and no tubs. My experience is that men will not use plungebaths. I had an aversion to them myself. Bath-houses should have shower-baths fitted up, with hot and cold water, and concrete floors, with a fall for the water to run away, and a person should be appointed to keep them clean. An objection to the use of the tub is that perhaps a man may not let the water run away after washing, and the next man does not care for washing another man's slime off. For that reason I would recommend that bath-accommoda-tion at mines should consist only of showers, so that the men would leave it clean. 63. Have you anything to suggest as to accidents from falls from roofs and sides']— Yes; 1 would say that it should be made compulsory that no more than one set of ground be broken in a stope at one time. That is necessary on account of the new machines being introduced on this field. If some such provision is not made for these new machines there will be an increasing tendency to break two sets of ground at once instead of one, and perhaps three or four. 64. What sort of new machines do you refer to?— They are known as the Wall, machines. Then, I think it should be made compulsory, wherever a windlass is used below, for a pawl or sprag to be on it, so that in the event of anything happening to the man using it the windlass could not get away or hurt the man. The compulsory use of it on all windlasses underground should be insisted upon. Then, there is another matter I wish to refer to which concerns this field. . It is customary to use wooden rungs on the ladders, and I think they should be made of iron for the safety of employees passing up and down. The travelling-ways, too, in my opinion, should be at least 4 ft. by 4 ft., and mine-owners should be compelled to provide them that size, so that the provision of the Mining Act in respect of stagings every 25 ft. could be complied with. At the present time I know of travelling-ways 90 ft. long without one staging. If you take steps to compel a mine-owner to put in stagings he will tell you that if you do you will debar him from pulling timber up the pass. A proper staging should be put in every 20 ft., so that a man could rest if he felt faint or tired when travelling a long distance up a ladderway. Then, a number of accidents that have happened to the members of the union have been in the nature of strains and ruptures. We have had cases where chambermen have been ruptured through grappling with big timber in a cage, and I would suggest that some provision should be made that where heavy timber is to be put on to or removed from a cage a chain or block should be used either in the chamber or on the surface. 65. Have you known chains to be used? —Yes, there is one in use on the surface in one of the mines here now. 66. But not down below? —No, it is at Blackwater. It is a very good arrangement. The work is very much less laborious and less dangerous. There is another matter which I think should be attended to. Provision should be made in the Act to alter the present system of protection at each chamber. The present method is to put a bar across. It should be compulsory for gates to bo provided instead of these bars. The plat may have a dip towards the shaft, and in one case I knew an accident to be just avoided. A number of trucks come out of a crosscut, and each one bumps the one in front until the first one gets to the shaft, and there is a big risk of them falling down the shaft altogether. I think the gate would be much safer than the bar at present in use. I think, too, there should be communication between the engine-driver and the man below, either by speaking-tube or telephone, in every shaft. Sometimes men are below 1,700 ft. or 1,800 ft., and there is not even a back knocker on. I have known such communication as I suggest provided in Western Australia.

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67. You want one at every level.' —Well, the chamberman leaving one level could put his block in and take it on to the next. 68. Have you anything to say in regard to ventilation, either particularly or generally? — Yes, as to both. That is a problem which we rind very difficult to deal with here, especially where development-work is being carried on. In connection with rising, and driving, and developmentwork there is always more or less dynamite-smoke present, and the ventilation is not always good. 69. What remedy have you to suggest? —The compulsory use of exhaust fans for providing artificial ventilation. On this field there are two or three months in the year —January, February, and March —when the ventilation is worse than at any other time, and we have known one mine to be shut down altogether during February on that account. The candles would not burn in it. You are dependent upon what might be termed natural ventilation. You have to contend .with climatic conditions, and in a mine that has two shafts —an upcast and downcast —the fact that the cages are working perhaps in the upcast causes the air-current to be very erratic. 1 think that the upcast in a shaft should be used for no other purpose than as an upcast. 70. Have you anything to say as to splits of air for the different levels? —No, the only exhaust fan I have seen is the lioots blower. In the Globe Mine here there is plenty of air going through the old shaft—sufficient to blow your candle out —but there does not seem to be enough oxygen in it. It is vitiated or used up going through the mine. In regard to ventilation, I would like to say a good deal of rising is done on this field, and 1 think the present system of rising should be discontinued —that is, taking a rise up with two compartments only. You have to depend upon a little compressed air blown to you, and there is absolutely no chance <>( natural ventilation reaching the men, because there is perhaps 20 ft. of mullock in the mullock - way or second compartment, and I am satisfied that it should be compulsory that where rises are put up a box should be carried in the centre of the rise, consisting of three compartments, so that a continued circulation of air should be provided. In my opinion, also, rising should be limited in distance. At present, as far as the Mining Act is concerned, there is nothing to prevent the owner of a mine from rising 10,000 ft. if he likes. It is the most unhealthy work. They should be compelled to sink, at any rate, one-third of the distance. 71. Have you anything to say in regard to temperatures?—Y r es, I think it is very necessary that a standard heat should be fixed for this country. 72. Do you know anything about the wet and dry bulbs?— Yes; 1 have taken temperatures in this field with the hygrometer. 73. What have you to say as to a standard?-—] say a standard of 7o° or 76° is just as hot as a man can work in. 74. That is, fully saturated? —Yes, fully saturated. 75. Hoi are you going to get over the difficulty of variation? Supposing you have the dry bulb at, say, 79°, and the wet bulb at 76°, with, say, three points between them, what arc you going to do in a case like that? If you fix the standard at 76° fully saturated that would not meet a case in which you had 76° wet and 79° or 80° dry? —Well, 1 would say that, as far as that is concerned, I have not too much faith in air-testing. 1 think a man doing hard work there is the best judge. He knows how his candle is burning, and he knows how he feels. 76. But different men feel different effects. You could not have a man as a standard?— Hardly. Some men can stand more than others, but all the same, whether a man is a weak or a strong man, 1 think he is the best judge. He can tell when a place is not lit to work in. There are sensations which he gets which are not recorded in an air-tube. A man cannot live in an air-tube. I have seen tests taken where the air was quite nice, but the place was. not nice to work in. I base my opinion on a number of years' experience. I have been engaged mining myself, and I think that after all the candle is the best test as far as air is concerned, and when the candle will burn blue it is time to leave the place. 77. Do you get many of those places? —Yes, in the rises. 78. Is it a matter of temperature? You see you might have a high temperature and still the candle may burn quite brightly? —Yes, if the air is about. 79. When you come to consider a temperature standard you have got to keep it clear of v quality standard. It is the deficiency in quality which affects the candle?—lt is the lessening of the quantity of oxygen. 80. Are you not confusing the two standards —the quantity standard and the quality standard?- —I would like to see a temperature standard. 81. There was a suggestion made by a professor_in Dunedin that the best test was the temperature of the man. If his temperature went up above normal, and his pulse-beats increased rapidly, that was the best test of the place being unfit to work in ?—I do not see that that would be a practicable test. Every time there was any dispute you would have to bring a doctor to the mine. 82. No, a man could take his own temperature. But, supposing you fix the standard temperature, who is going to decide? —The Inspector of Mines. I take it that if we had a fixed standard the Inspector of Mines would be able to say, " Y 7 ou are over your fixed temperature; j-oti must alter the conditions here." 83. Could he not also take the temperature of the men? —I would rather see the temperature of the place taken. 84. The professor whom we examined in Dunedin said that, when once a man's temperature rose to a certain point, it was a clear indication that he ought to be out of it : have you never heard of such a thing before? —No. 88. What have you to say as to a quality standard of air as against a temperature standard of heat? —I should rather see a temperature standard of heat fixed.

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86. How are you going to get over the variation between the wet and dry bulbs when one is up to the standard and the other much higher than it? The opinion has been expressed that, with the dry bulb at 80° and the wet at 76°, the conditions are not so bad as with both bulbs at 76°, fully saturated I —Yes, I admit a difficulty arises there, but as far as this field is concerned 1 have never found them vary more than lA°. 87. For instance, here in the tables put in by the Inspector of Mines we have sue]) readings as this : 75° and 75-1°; 683° wet and 69° dry;" 63° and 64°; 78° and 79°; 68° and 69°: so that practically there is only about a degree of difference on this field? —Yes, that is so; that is the rule all over the Reefton field. 88. In cases where there are two or three degrees of difference do you know how it is going to be overcome? —I should say that there is something wrong with the air if there were 4° or 5° of difference, and then there should be some provision made for testing the air in that place. While cm the subject of ventilation I should like to see a standard in candles fixed. According to my own experience of working in dead-ends and rises a very nasty smell arises from the use of inferior candles underground. I do not say they are cheap candles, but I think that none but the best candles should be used where a man has to breathe the fumes given off by them. 89. Have you anything to say as to sanitation? —Yes, I think it is a very important matter as far as underground work is concerned, and a matter that frequently affects the health of the persons employed below. It has frequently struck me very forcibry that a man who is running a factory—whether it is in Wellington or Greymouth does not matter —is subject to the supervision of the Inspector of Factories, who inspects the premises to see that the sanitary conveniences comply with the Act, and are kept clean and supplied with disinfectants, while a mine-owner has been known on this field to employ a hundred and fifty men below but pay very little attention at all to the sanitary arrangements ; and yet there is more danger of disease in the case of the mine than there is in the factory, which is up in the sunshine. I would suggest that where sanitary conveniences are made the place should be concreted and whitewashed, and one person at least in every mine employing, say, more than forty men below should be told off to attend to those places. 90. Do you mean that the class of sanitary arrangement should be expressly defined and not left indefinite?— Yes; and where there are more than forty men employed below that a man should be told off for the work. My meaning is that for a mine where less than fort)- men are employed the man could do other work as well, but where forty men or over were employed below a special man should be told off to do that work and nothing else. 91. Have you anything to say as to the present system of investigating fatal accidents—the constitution of the Court and the general system of inquiry?— Yes, I think that the present constitution of the Court is not representative. Section 266, subsection (4), says, " The inquiry shall be held before a, Court consisting of the Warden sitting with two assessors (appointed by the Warden), who shall be the holders of first-class certificates as mine-managers." I think the two assessors being mine-managers is unfair. T think the workmen should have a representative. It frequently happens that there are only seven or eight mine-managers on the field, and that they form one happy family. T think it is very necessary that the workmen should be represented by one of those assessors. 92. You mean that there should be one mine-maria<jer and one representative of the workmen? —Yes. 93. How is he to be nominated? —T should say by the organization or the union that he belonged to. It should be the president or some official. 94. That would make him a fixed nomination. Under the present Act the assessors are appointed by the Warden. The difficulty about fixing a regular person to act as assessor would be that there might be a case where he was interested. If it were the secretary or president of the union that official would be a constant member of each inquiry? —Yes, that is so. 95. That arrangement might lead to trouble in a case where his own friends or relations were killed. Do you not think it would be better to leave it as it: is—with the Warden to appoint— with the change you advocate? —T would like to see it made certain that the assessor would be a practical man. 96. Of course, you would have to leave it to the Warden to nominate a practical man, and one as nearly independent as he could find?—T do not mind so long as the workers have one representative. 97. Now, with regard to the powers of Inspectors of Mines : there has been a suggestion made to us that Inspectors should have larger powers — that they should have summary powers of instituting proceedings in case of breaches of the Act, and that generally their powers should be extended to enable them to deal with a number of difficulties that exist in regard to the impossibility of making definite standards and rules for local conditions? —Yes. as far as the powers of Inspectors of Mines are concerned, T think that their position under section 261 of the Mining Act is a farce, for their powers are limited to such an extent. Section 261 nullifies all their powers. We had a case in point in "Reefton not long ago. That section says that where he finds anything defective or dangerous he shall notify such to the mine-owner, and shall " require that the matter complained of be forthwith remedied. He shall also report the same to the Minister and to the Warden." Well, that is done, and "if the owner objects to oonvplv with such requisition he may, within seven days after the delivery thereof as aforesaid, send his objections in writing to the Warden." He can work on for another seven days. notwithstanding the fact that the place micrht be dangerous in the opinion of the Inspector of Mines, who is a practical man, and that the manager has been notified by him to that effect. Then, subsection (c) of that section says. " The Warden shall fix a time for the hearing of the objections, and shall cause notice to be given to the owner and to the Inspector of the time so fixed." That may mean another six or seven days'

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delay, and so it may be fourteen days from the time the Inspector originally objected to the working of the place. Then, after the order is made by the Warden, according to subsection (c), if the owner fails to comply with it, and such failure continues for fourteen days after the date of the order, he commits an offence, so that he can go on for another fourteen days. That means he can work for nearly a month altogether after the Inspector has objected to the place; he does not commit an offence until the twenty-eighth day after the Inspector certifies the matter to be dangerous. I think that section should be altered. Ido not think the manager should be debarred from lodging an objection to the Inspector's requisition, but I do say that the Inspector, being a man with the qualifications to judge, should have the power to say that those conditions are unfit for a man to work in, and to compel the manager to withdraw the men. It should be compulsory then for him to withdraw the men, but he should have the right of appeal, and the place should •not be worked until the inquiry is held. The section should be amended so that effect must be given to the Inspector's recommendation right away. 98. Have you any recommendation to make as to the alteration of the times? Take the seven days allowed the manager to appeal. Is that necessary?— Certainly not. I should say that ought to be forty-eight hours; but I contend that he should stop the place. 99. But I mean apart from that point altogether. Supposing that power is not given, is there any way of limiting the period? —Well, the seven days could be reduced to forty-eight hours. 100. Then, would you suggest reducing the period within which the Warden should hear the objection? But there is no time-limit there? —No, it would be difficult if he had a big district. 101. But where human life is in danger he must attend to it; the parties could appear before him anywhere. It does not require a sitting of the Court. It could be taken before the Warden summarily?— Well, I think there, would be no objection to forty-eight hours being fixed as the time for the mine-owner to submit his objections. 102. And would you suggest that a time-limit be fixed for the Warden to hear the case? What would be a reasonable time?—As far as this district is concerned it might be fixed at four days. 103. Then, what time do you suggest, after the Warden gives his decision, should the mineowner be compelled to comply with the Warden's order? —I should say, immediately. It should be an offence for him to continue to work under those conditions after the Warden has given his ruling. 104. You must give him a certain time to remedy the defect : what time do you say— " forthwith "1 —Or within twenty-four hours. There is another aspect of the case : the Inspector of Mines may be a practical miner, but the Warden may know absolutely nothing about the work, and then you would have a qualified man saying that a place is unfit to work in, and yet he has to go before the Warden and ask him whether he is right or wrong. 105. It is a matter of evidence before the Warden. I doubt whether the Warden would rely wholly upon his qualifications. What do you suggest —that some one should be associated with the Warden on the appeal? —I suggest that a Warden on a mining field should have a practical mining knowledge. 106. Supposing the Warden could call to his assistance an independent certificated 'man with practical knowledge to sit with him and help him to arrive at a conclusion. It might make the procedure more cumbersome? —I would not be in favour of that. I would recommend that he should have practical mining knowledge for dealing with mining cases of that sort. I think that is essential. 107. Have you anything to say as to the use of rock-drills, poppers, and so on?— One of the causes of the cases of miners' complaint I have known has been the use of rock-drills. 108. What is your opinion in connection with the dust trouble in cases where hand-steel is lise d? I think the Mining Act should be amended to make the use of water with hand-steel compulsory. At present, unless a company is using rock-drills, you cannot compel the use of water underground. On this field, in the Big River Mine, the ventilation is what the Inspector of Mines would describe as adequate—in fact, it is regarded as the second-best ventilated mine here, and yet it is getting dustier with depth. 109 You think water is necessary in all cases? —Yes, wherever there is dust. There is a new drill being introduced now for boring " uppers," called the Wall machine. I have seen it working at a fairly good pressure, and with it it is not possible to allay all the dust. 110. The sprays are used? —Yes; but even if the spray goes right across the hole it must miss some of the dust. The spray of water is split by the drill. 111. If it is kept pretty close up to the hole? —I 'clo not think it is possible to kill all the dust when boring " uppers." 112 How could you do any better with hand-steel to kill all the dust? —I would abolish dry drilling-—whether by hand or machine —to-morrow if I could. I do not say it is possible. By some means we should try to prevent men from dry drilling. As far as miners' complaint is concerned I notice that in all cases the men who suffer by it are those employed on developmentwork—those who work in the dustiest places. We also attribute it partially to men having to walk two or three miles to their homes without changing their clothes. They come out of a mine where the temperature is perhaps 70° or 76°, and go home sweating through a cold atmosphere, and their clothes are quite stiff before they get to their camp. Thus they catch cold, which may be the start of miners' complaint. In connection with this matter I would like to see it made compulsory for a spray to be used in all places, whether there is hand-labour or machines used, and all ladderwavs in these dry mines should be sprayed. Then, there is the matter of the mullock which is broken in one level being used in the next. It is sometimes fairly dirty when tipped into the pass and the trucker suffers from it. I think provision should be made to thoroughly wet all mullock in transit from one level to another. As regards miners' complaint also, I find that my

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experience goes to show that it is the contractor who catches it. The contract system is responsible for a good many of the cases of miners' complaint. In their greed they rush back and eat smoke, as they would not do under the day-wage system. It is the man who works the hardest who succumbs the quickest to miners' complaint: that is my experience. 113. Mr. Dowgray.] What is your opinion of section 264 of the Mining Act, which gives the miners power to employ check inspectors?—l think it is altogether inadequate. 114. In which direction? —Well, it is contended by the mine-owners on this field that the words " once at least in every month " in paragraph (a) of subsection (2) of section 264 of the Act limits the workmen's inspection to once a month. If that interpretation is right the workmen might as well be without the right of inspection. If the mine-owner has defective places in his mine he can hang , them up until the workmen's inspector has come and gone —he can time the inspector's visit to a nicety. I contend that if these inspections are going to be of any service to the workmen the inspectors should have free facility to inspect a mine at least once a week. 115. It has been suggested in other places that the workmen's inspector should have increased powers, inasmuch as he should have the power to stop a place until it was visited by the Inspector of Mines? —I believe also that that power is needed, because the Inspector of Mines here has a large district, and his work carries him away for four and five weeks at a time. He might be in Marlborough, and men might be working here under unsatisfactory conditions, and the workmen's inspector is powerless under the present circumstances. 116. You think he should have the power to stop a place? —I do. 117. In reply to the Chairman you said the height of rises should be limited, but you did not state the height to which you would limit them?—l consider that if rising were limited to 70 ft. it would decrease the number of cases of miners' complaint. I attribute miners' complaint a good deal to rising. It is the most unhealthy development-work a miner can do. In view of that I would advocate that rises be limited to 70 ft., with the proviso that there should be three compartments. 118. You said that knocker-lines should all have levers: is there only one knocker-line?— There is one in each compartment. If you are knocking away the south cage you use the south line, and if you are knocking away the north cage you use the northern line. 119. Mr. Parry. .] In regard to ladderways you advocated that they should be 4 ft. by 4 ft., giving sufficient space to put landing-stages every 30 ft. : do you mean by that the ladderway or shaft used for travelling purposes alone, and not for putting steel and timber up and down?— Certainly; I think it would be nothing but right to have a travelling-way in each block for travelling purposes alone. 120. The Chairman.] You mean 4 ft. by 4 ft. for ladderways?—Yes, to allow for the change in the ladders. The present ladderways are so small that if you were to attempt to put a staging in every 25 ft. or 30 ft. you would block them. 121. Mr. Parry.] Apart from the travelling-way do you think it would be advisable to have a place to pull timber and tools up ?—I do. 122. Do you think that would have a tendency also to improve the ventilation in the stopes? Yes, because if you are dependent upon the two-compartment passes for ventilation—as they are in the mines now —then the effect of putting in staging would be to block the vent. _ If there were stated places for pulling up timber you could do away with the winch or the pulling-up of timber and tools hand over hand. 123. In regard to temperature, do you advocate a dry and a wet standard? —Yes, I would suggest a fixed dry and a fixed wet standard. 124. During your experience at what time have you found the most accidents occur underground? I do not know that I have noticed that more accidents occur on one shift than another. Of course, the number of accidents is regulated by the number of men employed, but I should say that they are more liable to happen in the night shift than in any other shift, because then a man has not all his faculties about him. 125. During your experience underground have you found that, as a rule, the standard of vitality is lower in a man working under the contract system than when working on the wage system ? Most decidedly. A man working under the contract system will go home quite used up. I have done so myself. 126. The Chairman.] I do not quite understand your answer as to having two standards of temperature —one wet and one dry?— Well, I would suggest that experts decide at _what point between the two temperatures there is too much moisture, and then fix that as a sufficient margin between the two. You would have to have a dry a>nd a wet standard. If the difference were too great it would point to the fact that the air was not altogether ri&?ht, and then there could be a test made of the air. - 127. You mean to get over the difficulty by fixing a standard for the wet and one tor the dry bulb? —Yes. . 128. Mr. Molinenux.] I understand you consider that power be given to check inspectors to stop places? —Yes, when the Inspector of Mines is out of the district. 129. Then you think the check inspector is more qualified to judge as to the safety of a place than the mine-manager?— Yes, T should say he was equally competent, and in some cases more so. 130. In that case do you not think it is only reasonable to ask that check inspectors should hold a mine-manaeer's certificate to show that he is qualified?—No, I would not say that. I say there are men in the ranks of the miners to-day who are as capable, and more so, than some minemanagers in determining whether a place is unsafe or not, and who have no certificates. As far as a certificate is concerned it does not carry any weight with me. There is a man working in the Energetic Mine who admittedly has a thoroughly practical knowledge of mining, and yet he has failed to gain a certificate.

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131. Then I judge that you consider it should not be necessary for a mine-manager to hold a certificate : why should he require to hold a certificate ? —I do not know, but, of course, there are a great number of men under him. He is in charge of men every minute of the twenty-four hours. 132. But you are asking for powers as great as a mine-manager's—you are backing your knowledge against his? —-I think a man can be a competent check inspector without having a ticket. The power to stop a place would only be used when the Inspector of Mines was out of the district. 133. The Chairman .] It could be used at any time, though?—lt would only be used, I take it, where the Inspector of Mines was out of the district, and where life was at stake and danger involved. If the Inspector of Mines were in the district all you would have to do would be to go to him. 134. Mr. Molineaux.] What qualifications do you consider a check inspector should have before being elected by the union? —He should have a thorough knowledge of practical mining. In my opinion he should be a man who had worked in all departments of mining underground. 135. Then if he has all those qualifications why should he not be prepared to pass the examination and prove his qualifications? —Well, I take it that the average body of miners would not elect him if he did not have them. 136. Then why not ask him to pass the examination and gain the certificate to show that he has these qualifications? —That is to satisfy other people. I would not be in favour of that. 137. Why not?— Because they change so often; the men frequently leave the district. You would want an inexhaustible supply of certificated men. 138. You have already stated that there is a number of men with those qualifications : it would be no hardship I —But from the union's standpoint more is required of a check inspector. He has a good deal of clerical work to do. 139. The Chairman.] If you have to appoint a man with clerical ability as well, how are you going to make sure that you get a thoroughly practical man capable of undertaking the duties?— He is known to his mates. Perhaps he has worked with two hundred or three hundred of them, and he gets their vote because they have confidence in him. 140. But you are asking for powers as great or greater than those of the Inspector of Mines? < —I iwould not say as great as the Inspector of Mines, because he is the referee in all cases. I say, in the absence of the Inspector of Mines, if a place were dangerous, the workmen's inspector, in the interests of the health and safety of the men, should have the power to withdraw the men. 141. But do you not think that if you ask for that power the workmen's inspector should satisfy the Mines Department, by an examination conducted by the Department, that he is a competent person to exercise the power proposed to be given him—that he is qualified to judge— apart from merely being appointed by the union? Do you not think that would be reasonable? —I think it would be reasonable if the Government paid half the workmen's inspector's salary. They would certainly then have the right to ask him to pass an examination; but if the workmen's inspector is to be wholly paid by the workmen, then they, and they only, should be the people to ask him for his qualifications. 142. I do not see the connection between the matter of payment and that of qualifications; but, apart from that, you see you are really asking that these workmen's inspectors may stop work in any part of the mine, while the Government will not give the Inspector of Mines that power unless he satisfies them that he is competent to determine what is a good and what is a bad place. You ask that some person should have the same power who has practically no proved qualification other than his appointment by the workmen? —The proofs of his qualifications would be that he had been in the district a good long time, and that perhaps seven hundred or eight hundred men knew him and knew of his qualifications. 143. You might appoint a mine-manager for the same reason, but that would not comply with the requirements of the Mining Act. You might be able to get any number of men quite capable of managing a mine, and who had been there a long time, but you would not be able to place him in charge of a mine merely for those reasons? —But you hold him responsible for life all the time. 144. Mr. Molineaux.] I understand you would limit the height of rises to 70 ft. : will you kindly explain your reasons?— Because rising is a very unhealthy form of development-work. More dust is consumed by the miner at that particular class of work than at any other. Also because, when you get above 70 ft., and get as far as they have in this field, it is a difficult proposition to climb to and from your work. The nien are confined in a place 4 ft. by 6 ft. 6 in., with hardly enough air going, and yet it is breathed over and over again by a man and his mate. And you have to put a candle on its side to make it burn. I think 70 ft. is quite high enough to rise under those conditions. 145. In rises such as you speak of you say it is difficult to keep a candle alight: how are they ventilated? —By a limited supply of compressed air coming in only two or three times a shift. 146. Granted there was sufficient ventilation in the rise, do you still think that it should be limited to 70 ft. believe if my suggestion of this morning were adopted—that all rises should have three compartments, with a centre mullock-way to be full of dirt, and with a current of air going—it would be possible to go higher. 147. So that if there were adequate ventilation as you suggest, with three compartments, you can see no reason why the rise should not be taken up 150 ft. ?—I would stop before that, because of the danger of shot-firing. 148. With regard to shot-firing, what is the greatest number of shots which you and your mate have fired together?—l have fired nine. 149. You mean eighteen together?—No.

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150. You have not fired more than nine between you] —No, a man might fire more for years, but he would do it once too often. 151. I did not quite catch the number of holes you considered it safe to fire with ordinary fuse? —I said five. 152. If the fuse were made larger is there any reason why a man should not fire more shots? —Well, it would add to the fumes. 153. But it would not add to the danger of an explosion?—l think if you get a defective piece of fuse it does not matter whether it is long or short. Fuse simply bolts sometimes. 154. But is that not one of the risks you must take? That might happen to a man who is firing only one hole ? —Yes. I knew a man in Tasmania who was faring only one hole and lost his eye. He had only 10 ft. of fuse. And yet some men say that all fuse is tested, and that none of it is defective. 155. How long do you consider it would take you to charge a round of machine holes, two in a stope?—lt all depends upon the size of the rounds. 156. Say ten holes? —I have never made a calculation of that, but 1 would not like to be racing against time. 157. Do you. think four hours would be too long? —No, I would not entertain that for a moment. 158. Well, say two hours? —I do not think 1 would work long for a manager if 1 took two hours over that job. 159. Well, how long?— You have to get your tamping and get ready. I think that if you had not too many preparations to make a round of ten holes, with two men, should be fired in half an hour. 160. Would you prefer to fire a hole yourself rather than let another man fire it? —I would say that even if I did bore a hole a shot-firer, if he were a good man, would be as competent to fire it as me. 161. Do you not consider that it would be better to have a number of men to qualify as shot-firers? Supposing you made a provision whereby a man was required to have two years' experience in and about a mine and six months in a face before he was considered competent?— I take it that a manager would not appoint a man to the position unless he was thoroughly qualified. He would have to be in the manager's employ for a considerable time. 162. But at the present time nearly every man is a shot-firer? —Yes; and 1 believe that tends to increase the number of accidents. 163. Under the regulations gazetted on the 7th September last how are winding-engine drivers to gain their experience? —I take it you refer to the provision intended to prevent persons other than certificated men being in charge of engines when men are being raised and lowered. A man might gain his experience by winding mullock. 164. And he would be able to sit for his examination without having hauled men at all?-—■ Yes. 165. Then when he gains his certificate he has never hauled men up and down a shaft?—No; but it is only fair to say that on this field a new engine-driver is never allowed to raise or lower men, even if he comes loaded with certificates, without one of. the old hands being with him. I say engine-drivers should practice on mullock, and even when he has satisfied the examiner that he is a fit and proper person to have control of an engine with human freight the other drivers should remain with him until they are sure of him. 166. Yes, but why should he not gain that confidence before he gets his certificate?— There is a big risk in it. 167. You cannot tell until you see him do it?— Well, I would rather see him do it with another man. 168. The If a man gained a certificate, under this regulation he would be entitled to commence winding men, and no person could be in the engine-room with him? —I take it that it would not be right for a man to wind men under those circumstances. 169. Plow is he going to practice unless he is entitled to do it: how can he gain his confidence?—l see no way other than that when a man takes charge of an engine another man should stay with him. 170. But under that regulation you cannot have the other man there ?—Well, that wants altering. 171. And under the regulation he would have to get his certificate without winding men. Then he would be winding men without having had any previous experience, and no one else can be with him?— That seems a weak point. I say it is not right to allow *a man to take on a strange engine. 172. Then you think the regulation requires to be recast in some way so as to enable a man who has had no previous experience in winding men to gain that experience with a qualified man ?—Yes, but I say that he should not do any practising until he gets his certificate. 173. You recommend that a man should first get his certificate and then that he be allowed to practice before being left in charge of an engine for winding men?— Yes. 174. Mr. Molineaux.] In regard to that question, let me put it in another form : supposing a certificated driver were held respoasible for the actions of a man whom he was showing, would you then object to the learner raising and lowering men before he sat for his examination? — That would be putting the responsibility on the driver instead of on the employer. No, I would not be in favour of that being done. I would hold the man who employed him responsible. 175. With regard to bath-houses and change-houses, if it is made compulsory upon the companies to provide them, would you be in favour of its being made compulsory for the men to use them? —I do not like the word " compulsory " at all.

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176. Not even in regard to the company being made to erect them?— That is a different matter. If they erect the baths the men will be only too willing to use them if proper facilities are provided, but to make it compulsory upon the men would be interfering with their freedom. 177. Then, in the event of not more than 50 per cent, of the men using the bath-houses, would you consider the company warranted in incurring the expense?— Yes. 178. If less than 75 per cent, use them do you think the company should have the option of shutting them down? —That would be rather hard on the seventy-four men. It would not be any more expensive to heat the water for 100 per cent, than for 75 per cent.; but 1 think the company will have no reason to cavil on those grounds. 179. Mr. Cochrane.} Coming back to the question of temperature, were you speaking as a specialist or as just a practical miner? —As an experienced miner. 180. And I think you asked that an expert should decide the point?— When I said an- " expert " I meant the Inspector of Mines. 181. Then you told us there were two deaths from a premature explosion at, 1 think, the Energetic Mine? —Yes. 182. How did that accident occur: can you give any explanation?— Well, it is in doubt still as to how it happened; but from the evidence it would appear that two men were charging something like ten or eleven holes, and three of them remained unlit, and the leading hole must have gone off and killed them. 183. It is implied that it was due to defective fuse? —That is in doubt, but it is thought so. 184. Then you said there were shot-firers at the Great Boulder Mine : how many men were served by one shot-firer ?—Koughly speaking, there were thirty or forty men in the level. 185. Then you say that at the Blackwater Mine the men were afraid to use the batteries? —Well, batteries are not common on the West Coast; it is quite a common thing to meet miners who have never seen them. 186. Was that the reason why they were disinclined to use them? —Yes. 187. You say you would compel the engine-driver to be always present when men are underground, and you would also allow the chamberman only to use the knocker-lines and speakingtube or telephone. Now, if you have a case where there is perhaps a night shift to carry forward development-work—say, two men and a trucker —would you require these things then? —Yes, while there is life below. 188. Even if you have a good ladderway leading down do you not think that is burdening the industry? —No, Ido not think so. If there were only one man below 189. But take my question —not one man but two? —I would still insist, because most of the mines are 1,800 ft. deep. 190. But take the case of a mine 2,000 ft. deep?—lt is my contention that there should be a man at the engine. 191. Then, as to misfires, would you be in favour of reducing the time for returning from three hours to one hour? —I think that the man to go back and fire the hole again should be the man who has the misfire; it should not be left to the stranger. And as to the time to be taken, I would certainly not be in favour of reducing it from three hours to one hour. 192. In cases of infectious pneumoconiosis or tuberculosis would you be in favour of the exclusion of the sufferers from the mines, in the interests both of themselves and the other miners, if they were suitably provided for otherwise? —Yes, they should not be below. And the medical men here go one further and say that they would order the Health Officer to remove the men from underground. 193. Do you say that subject to the qualification that they are suitably provided for?— Yes; the person responsible for taking away the miner's life should give him something else. 19-1. Mr. Dowgray.~\ Returning to section 261 of the Mining Act, I believe you said, in reply to the Chairman, that you were in favour of the Warden having certain qualifications?— When I said that I had in my mind's eye a case of defective ventilation which was brought before the Warden some time ago, where the Warden admitted from the Bench that he knew nothing about mining, and it seemed to me ridiculous that the Inspector of Mines should require to come to such a man and ask him to decide. 195. Did the Warden visit the place? —Yes. 196. And on examination of the place he gave a decision? —No, he would not give a decision. 197. Would you be in favour of the Warden undergoing an examination?—l think a Warden on a mining-field should have a knowledge of his business. John Truscott sworn and examined. (No. 64.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?— Shift boss in the Globe Mine at the present time. 2. How many years' experience have you had? —Thirty. 3. Where? —In New Zealand and Western Australia. i. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission ?—1 wish simply to give my experience of electric batteries. I have used them with both high and low pressure, and consider that for shaft work they are very good, but for anything else I prefer the hand fuse. 5. How many shots do you think a man could safely fire?— Well, some men are fairly nervous, and cannot fire so many as others, but for my own part I have fired twelve and sometimes as many as sixteen, though I do not say that every man can do that. I should say, however, that there is no danger in firing eight or nine holes. 6. Have you had any experience of the shot-firers? —No, in no mine where I have been working have there been shot-firers. 7. How long is it since you used the battery? Where did you use the last one?—ln the Crown Mine at Karangahake.

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8. How long ago?— About fourteen years. 9. Is there anything else you wish to speak of?—ln regard to firing with the battery, as against firing with the fuse, I want to say that I have found as much fracture when firing with a battery as with a fuse. 10. What did you attribute that to?—I really could not say what is the cause of it. 11. Mr. Molineaux.] Have you had any misfires with electric firing?— Yes, I had one experience of it when using a low-pressure battery. 12. How did you account for it? —I really cannot say. 13. You have had misholes when using fuse?— Yes. 14. What is the usual cause of them?—At times defective detonators, and at other times bad fuse. I have known fuse to run within 2 in. of a cap and then go out. 15. Have you had any experience of instantaneous fuse? —No. 16. Have you seen it? —No; but I would not care to use it. 17. Why not?—lt is too quick. I would rather have the ordinary fuse, and cut it a proper length. 18. Do you consider that under any circumstances instantaneous fuse could be used to greater advantage than electric batteries with the ordinary fuse?— Well, I cannot say, because I have had no experience of the instantaneous fuse. 19. With regard to charging a round of machine holes, say, in a large stope, how long do you consider it would take to charge and fire six holes?— That all depends upon the men themselves. 20. How long would it take you yourself? —I can fire from six to eight holes in half an hour —that is, I could charge and fire them in that time if I had everything there. 21. What is the longest time you have known a hole to hang fire with the ordinary fuse?— I have never seen them, but I have heard of them hanging fire for four hours. 22. The Chairman.] What is the longest time you have known them to hang fire in your own personal experience? —Between an hour and an hour and a half. 23. Mr. Molineaux.] In case of a misfire what is your usual procedure?— Well, like most men, I give it twenty minutes or half an hour, and then withdraw the cap and fire the shot again. 24. You consider that is the safest method —of course, I am speaking of nitro-glycerine compounds? —Yes, I think that would be safe enough. 25. Safer than boring and charging the explosion?— Certainly, I would prefer to draw the cap. 26. Mr. Cochrane.] It has been suggested that the time for returning to a misfire should be reduced from three hours to one hour : what is your opinion on that point?—l think it would be perfectly safe to make it one hour. 27. Do you think it would be better than three hours?— Yes. 28. You have had a good many misfires with the fuse? —Yes, a few. 29. And also a good many when firing with electricity? —Yes. 30. Does not that point to the ordinary fuse being more defective than the battery?—l would not like to say. 1 cannot give you any opinion on the point. lam here only to give my experience. 31. But you have just recommended a. reduction in the time for returning to misfires?—l did not recommend it; I said it would be safe. , ■ 32. Are you aware that there was, any,,difficulty in connection with the use of the batteries at the Crowp Mines fourteen years ago?— No. -~„,, William Phillips sworn and examined. (No. 65.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —A miner. 2. How long have you been mining?— Over thirty years. 3. What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission? —That working in these mines for any length of time is very injurious to a man's health. It has done for me. 4. What is it you are suffering from? —From lack of wind. 5. Are you in the doctor's hands? —Yes, I have been under his care for the last eighteen months. 6. How long is it since you last worked? —Five weeks; but 1 was not underground then. 7. How long is it since you first felt the shortness of breath? —About eighteen months before I knocked off work. 8. Up to that time did you have average health? —Yes, good health. 9. Where were you working? —In the Globe Mine. 10. On what class of work? —Stoping, rising, sinking, and every sort of mine-work. 11. What were the general conditions under which you worked in regard to dust? —Well, I have been in places where the dust was very bad. 12. But you had water? —No, not then. I am speaking about the conditions five or six years ago. I have been twelve years in that mine. ' 13. Does the doctor say you will not be able to return permanently to your work?-—Yes, Dr. Conlon says so. Four years ago he examined me and said my lungs were quite sound, but when he examined me again twelve months ago lie advised me to go into the hospital, and never to go underground again. The manager always gives me a job on top, but now I am unable to even walk to my work. 14. Since the time the doctor last examined you what were the average conditions under which you worked? Were you working in specially dusty places?—l have been in dusty places. 15. Were you drilling with rock-drills? —No, with the hand-steel. 16. Of course, you had no water at all? —No.

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17. What is your opinion with regard to the necessity for using water with the hand-steel? —I think a spray of water would be very good where the place is dusty. 18. Do you think it is necessary whether they are using rock-drills or not?— Yes, especially along the levels, where it is very dusty. 19. Mr. Fletcher.} Will you please tell us your age?—l am nearly sixty-five. 20. How long have you been employed gold-mining?— For thirty years. 21. The Chairman.} What were you doing prior to that? —Coal-mining and alluvial mining. 22. But you have had over thirty years' experience in quartz-mines?— Yes. IiiCHAED Burke sworn and examined. (No. 66.) 1. The Chairman.} What are you? —A miner. 2. With how many years' experience? —Eighteen. 3. Where? —In Victoria, New South Wales, and during the last two years in New Zealand. 4. Where are you working now?—ln the Blackwater Mine. 5. Do you occupy any position in the mine other than that of a miner? —No. 6. Are you a member of the union? —Yes, a member of the Inangahua Workers' Union. 7. Do you hold any office? —I am on a sub-committee. 8. What is it you wish to bring before the Commission? —I wish to speak as to sanitation and various other matters. 9. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Fagan? —Yes. 10. Do you agree with him? —I quite agree with him on most points. 11. Then you can add anything you wish to what Mr. Fagan has said? —I would like to see the bath-rooms in our mines kept cleaner than they are at present. Also, I would like to see the spray used where machine holes have been fired in an end. 12. Do you recommend the use of sprays in all cases? —Yes, whether they are hand-drilled or machine-drilled holes. I would limit the extent of rises to 100 ft. I consider rising is one of the most dangerous works in connection with mining, and after it gets 100 ft. you do not know whether your stage may be blown out. There may be nothing covering your head. Further, as a partial prevention of miners' complaint, 1 would advocate the abolition of all contracts underground. 13. What complaint do you refer to? —Miners' phthisis. 14. How does the contract system affect that!— Men are only too eager to rush back into the smoke and dust after firing a round of holes under the contract system. I would also like to recommend that not more than five holes be fired at any one time. 15. Do you mean under all circumstances ?-—I mean by using the fuse, because after you spit your first two holes the smoke begins to accumulate, and if you have to fire ten or eleven you have to grope for your final holes. 16. The law now is that you cannot fire more than six holes without using electrical firingapparatus : do you say that that six should be reduced to five? —Yes. I would also recommend the stopping of the spitting of fuses with fracture. I would like to see the fracture sent down the shaft different to what is d.one at the present time. A man gets on the cage with perhaps eighteen or twenty tins of fracture, and I think the fracture only should be lowered in the cage. An alteration should also be made in regard to the sending of tools down loose in the cage to the chamberman. I would like to see the recommendation of Mr. Fagan given effect to in regard to the engine-driver being always at his engine when men are below. I have had two experiences of drivers being absent from their engines at such times. 17. Where? —In Victoria. 18. How long did you have to wait? —In the first case nearly thred-quarters of an hour, and in the second nearly two hours. 19. What depth were you down? —In the first case 250 ft., and in the second 275 ft. 20. Was there a ladderway? —Yes; but in the first instance a man had his leg broken, and in the other case the man fell down the ladder-shaft. 21. Was he the only one down below? —No, there were twenty-five or thirty men there. 22. Mr. Molineaux.] I understand that you consider that five holes are as many as a man can with safety fire with the ordinary fuse ?—Yes, it is quite sufficient. 23. Five holes in a rise? —Yes, in a rise or an end. I would prefer to see it made only four holes in a rise. 24. In regard to bath-houses and change-houses, do you consider that the men should be liable to a fine°if they do not use them? —Well, I think so, because by not using them he would be injuring his own health. John Diamond sworn and examined. (No. 67.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. Where do you work? —The last mining-work I did was in the Globe Mine. 3! How many years have you been mining?—l have been quartz-mining for thirteen years, and alluvial-mining all my life before. 4 What matters do you wish to bring before the Commission ?—1 have been working in mines during the last thirteen years, rising, sinking, and driving levels, and I think rising is the most unhealthy work a man can do. 5. What recommendations have you to make? —In working in rises with machines a man consumes a lot of dust, and in all such places jets should be used. I have never used a jet when working in a rise in the Globe Mine. 6. Is there anything to prevent you from using a jet in a rise? —No, certainly not.

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7. If you used a jet would it tend to minimize the dangerous nature of rising? —Yes, it would keep a lot of dust down, especially with machines. 8. What sort of machines do you use? —Just the common rock-drills 9. Have you used them without water? —Yes, about two years ago, in a rise from No. 10, the water was never used. We were contracting. 10. What are you doing now?—l am in a hospital. 11. How long is it since you worked?—l have only done three days' work since the 19th April of this year. 12. Are you suffering from miners' disease? —Yes, from lung trouble. 13. How long have you been laid up?— Since the 19th April, 1911. 14. How long is it since you first felt the effects of the trouble? —Well, about two years ago last July I went down to Dr. Conlon to see if I was suffering from lung trouble, and he said that I was perfectly sound, and that what I was suffering from was simply a cold. I came to him fifteen months afterwards, and he told me then that I must go to a hospital. 15. In the meantime what had you been doing?—l had been working in rises and levels. 16. In dust all the time?— Yes, pretty well. The last contract I had was for driving a level with machines, and that was the last work I did in the mine. 17. Were there no water jets used at all? —I used a jet in the level in No. 10. 18. Is there any other matter you wish to bring before the Commission? —No, except with regard to this medical examination. Dr. Scott has said that he would recommend the medical examination, but in my case it did no good. I went to the doctor two years ago and asked him if I was suffering from lung trouble, and he said " No." But fifteen months afterwards he said I was not fit to go back into the mine. 19. Do you advocate a periodical examination?—No, my case shows that there is no good in them. 20. Supposing you had gone back again before fifteen months had elapsed do you not think that you would have had a chance to get out of the mine earlier than you did?—l do not know. When I felt the disease coming on again I went back to the doctor. 21. But the point is this : supposing you had gone after six months would it not have been better? It does not follow that the doctor's examination was not effective the first time? —But he gave me a full examination. 22. Perhaps in six months he might have been able to detect symptoms of lung trouble on examination. Do you not think this is an argument in favour of a periodical examination? —You would have thought that if I had been suffering from the disease he would have known. 23. Well, perhaps you may have contracted it afterwards. Do you not think that if you had a periodical examination there would be a better chance of detecting the beginning of the trouble? —I do not know. 24. Have you anything further to add ? —I reckon that when working in stdpes, with a lot of hammers and a good deal of blasting, they should use the spray, especially in the mines round about Reefton. Wherever there is dust they should use the jet. When they are trucking the rock out of the rise it is enough to suffocate them. Every time they fire it raises the whole of the dust in the stope. 25. You worked under those conditions all that time? —Yes. 26. How old are you?— Nearly thirty-seven. 27. Mr. Parry.'] You say that you have been working thirteen years in Reefton?—No, about eight years. 28. During that time have you been working on wages or contract? —Mostly on contract. Alfred Winter Evans sworn and examined. (No. 68.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you? —Genera], manager of the Consolidated Goldfields of New Zealand. 2. Do you hold any certificates?—l do, a Transvaal certificate as a mine-manager, a New Zealand mine-manager's certificate, and a university degree as Engineer of Mines. 3. How many years' experience have you had? —Sixteen. 4. How long have you been in charge of this mine? —I was here from March, 1909, till January, 1910, and I returned on the Bth June of this year. 5. What matters do you wish to bring'before the Commission?— First of all, the matter of change-houses. I consider it should be compulsory for every miner to change before proceeding underground, and again on arriving at the surface after completing his work, for the sake of the health of the men. 6. What accommodation would you consider necessary for that purpose?—-A change-room, with lockers, and heated by hot water or some other means. And baths should be provided in which all the men could wash. 7. What number of men to a bath would you have?— Well, if there were one shower for, say, every twenty men it would be ample, because they do not all arrive at the surface at" the same time, and it is only a matter of being under the shower for a couple of minutes. 8. That would be forty minutes? —Yes. They arrive on top about six in a cage, and do not all go into the change-house at the same time. They may be talking on the surface for a few minutes. 9. Have you any other recommendation to make? —-I think it would be an excellent idea if every man who is working as a miner and handling explosives were compelled to pass an examination and to hold a blasting ticket which would enable him to handle explosives. 10. Who should examine him? —The Government Inspector of Mines.

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11. And what standard would you set up — what subjects? —The handling of explosives, the use of explosives, and any general questions as to bad ground, dangerous hanging ground, as to what he would do under certain conditions, and also on the general laws regarding underground mining, so that there would be no excuse for his being ignorant of the law. 12. There has been a recommendation made that all rises should have three compartments —one for travelling, one for mullock, and one for ventilation I —l think you would be increasing the labour of the men -who have to put up the rise. You would have to increase the size up to 10 ft. if you wanted to have three compartments'; in other words, you would make it a young shaft. 13. What is your opinion about the height to which rises should be taken?—l think that any height is suitable provided the air is sufficiently good and that the logging sets are kept fairly well up to the face —say, within 4 ft. or 5 ft. of it. 14. What means would you adopt to put air into these faces? —Compressed air, with one compartment, as is used on this field. We have taken samples of the air, and I think I am right in stating that the analysis of the air taken from a point 119 ft. above the cap proved it to be practically as pure as the air on the surface. 15. And how far was it from the discharge of the compressed air I —l do not believe the air was on, but I would not be sure upon that point. 16. Have you any opinion to offer as to the use of small auxiliary fans? —I have no opinion to offer upon that matter. But I wish to recommend that where a miner is supposed to use a spray underground by law, and it is found by anybody in charge of the work that he has failed to do so, the manager should be at liberty to fine him. 17. That is, to make a deduction from his money?—To make a deduction from his money and to hand it over to the Inspector of Mines, or to have the man reported to the Inspector of Mines and allow the Inspector to fine him. My experience is that the men do refuse to use the spray. 18. It is the function of the Court to impose the penalty. Do you think the manager or the Inspector should have summary power to prosecute before the Court? —They should have the summary power of inflicting a fine, in the same manner as an Inspector of Mines in the Transvaal has, if the man has been convicted before. The man has the right to appeal to the Minister of Mines. 19. Mr. Molineaux.] You are acquainted with these regulations of the 7th September, 1911. I should like to have your opinion on clause (sa), which says that " In raising or lowerings persons the rate of speed shall not exceed 200 ft. per minute when the cage or other conveyance is within 100 ft. of the surface, bottom, or stopping-place, nor 500 ft. per minute when it is in any other part of the shaft "?—Well, the first part, I think, is a fairly reasonable demand —that is, 200 ft. per minute within 100 ft. of the surface or bottom; but I fail to see any point in reducing the speed at any intermediate place. 20. The Chairman.] What would be the average working-speed at intermediate points now?— I could not say offhand. 21. Is 500 ft. a minute low? —Yes, rather low. 22. Mr. Molineaux.] Do you think it is advisable to have any limit for hoisting men?— Yes, I think so. 23. But you consider 500 ft. a minute too low? —Yes. 24. What is your opinion of the standard of 8 ft. 6 in. fixed for stopes in these regulations? —I would like to say in regard to that matter that I have had no experience in Australasia outside Reefton, and consequently do not feel competent to express an opinion apart from this particular district. 25. The Chairman.] What is your working height?— About 6 ft. 26. So that you are under the maximum? —Yes. 27. Mr. Molineaux .] With regard to this of signals have you any remarks to make? — I think it is pretty hard on the engine-drivers, the bracemen, the chambermen, and also on the employers, because if you are hoisting three hundred trucks a day under the old system you would have to pull the bell three hundred times, whereas under this new system you will have to pull it over twelve hundred times. 28. There was a code used generally throughout this field before this code came out?—-Yes, we had a code on this field, but I do not know that it was uniform in all the mines, though the main signals for hoisting, and so on, were uniform all'through. I think the signals for the levels in a few cases were different. 29. And you consider the code used up till recently was very much more satisfactory? —Yes. 30. The Chairman.] What do you think as to the suggestion for having a lever upon the knocker-lines for signalling?— Well, if the lines are laid properly there is no occasion for that. They should be balanced properly. Still, there would be no harm in having the levers. 33. Mr. Molineaux.] With regard to explosives, what is the greatest number of holes you consider it is safe to fire with the ordinary fuse? —Well, I have fired over fifty myself in one face. 32. Are there any conditions under which you consider electrical firing safer than ordinary fuse firing?— Well, I have never had any experience of electrical firing. 33. Have you had any experience with an instantaneous fuse? —No. 34. With regard to engine-drivers, do you consider they should be debarred from raising and lowering men until such time as they have passed their examinations and received their certificates ?—No, because I think they require more confideiice in the hauling of men than for hauling, mullock. A man may be all right if he is only hauling dirt, and if he has an opportunity occasionally of hauling a load of men when he is learning he is more apt to gain confidence. 35. Do you consider it is absolutely necessary, from a point of safety, that a man should have been employed in raising men, with a certificated driver beside him, before he sits for his examination for the certificate? —Yes, I do.

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36. The Chairman.] Have you any recommendation to make in regard to that matter? The man might get a certificate without any experience. He would have to begin to raise men without any experience of it at all? —I do not think it is right. He should have a certain amount of practice with a qualified man beside him. 37. What recommendation would you suggest to vary that regulation? Would you make an exception in favour of a learner ? —lf a man is learning driving, and obtains the authority of the manager or person in charge, and has been on the engine hoisting mullock for anj r length of time, I do not think there should be any objection to his practising under the personal supervision of a qualified man. 38. But, apart from that, you agree that no other person should be allowed in the engineroom or be permitted to interfere with the man winding?— Nobody should be allowed to interfere with the driver, because he is absolutely responsible for the engine and for the human life he pulls. 39. Mr. Molineaux.] In regard to explosives, do you consider that the appointment of shotfirers would tend to diminish the risk of accidents? —No, I do not think so; every miner is supposed to be a qualified man. 40. Do you think it is practicable to distinguish, by means of an examination, between the experienced and the inexperienced man? —You could tell if a man is apt to be careless b}- putting him through a series of questions, for instance, as to how he would open his case of dynamite. If he told you he would use his boot or his hammer you would know that he was not acquainted with the law in regard to the handling of explosives. 41. With regard to misfires, what do you consider the best procedure? —Well, under the usual procedure I have been accustomed to you are not allowed to pull out the fuse, which would probably come away in your hands, but you can draw your tamping to a certain extent, to allow you to fire it again, in the hope that the concussion will explode the hole. 42. You consider that a sufficient amount of tamping can be withdrawn with absolute safety? —Yes. 43. The Chairman.] How close would 3 r ou go to the charge?— The distance is immaterial as long as 3'ou are not going to reach your primer cartridge which holds the detonator. Of course, it has to be done in a careful manner. If a man is careless and begins to scrape it out there is apt to be an accident; but, on the other hand, he is safe enough if he takes a piece of wood and scrapes it out sufficiently to put in another primer. 44. How close would you have to go to make sure of your second primer exploding the hole? —The distance would vary —say, 6 in. 45. But the detonator is not fired by concussion? —No, if you heat the detonator it will go off. 46. But it is thy firing of the fuse that sets the first detonator off? —Yes; but at the same time, if you were to put another detonator on top in a second primer, and'put that alongside, it would explode the first one. 47. Mr. Molineaux.] I would like to have your opinion of the present hydraulic test for steam boilers. Do you consider it efficient? —Yes, I think it is an efficient test, though I have not seen it done out here. There has not been any hydraulic testing since I returned. 48. Do you consider it as efficient as ,a thorough inspection?—No, I do not think it would be. 49. What defects in a boiler would you consider likely to be exposed by the hydraulic test?— The weeping of the rivets. 50. Would that be a sign of weakness?—No, it would not be a sign of weakness. If the boiler is not absolutely true it is a defect. A leakage of steam would result. 51. Would you expect to find leaks under the test even in the best-made boilers? The conditions are so different from those of a boiler working under steam ?—Yes. 52. Consequently, do you not think it probable that the hydraulic test would injure the boiler? —I do not know that it would, because you have a factor of safety in }T>ur material, and as long as the test is not going to exceed the factor of safety I do not see how the test will damage the boiler. 53. You understand I am referring to an annual test?—l thought you were referring to the test the boiler passes when coming from the foundry. As an annual test I do not think there is any use for the hydraulic test. 54. Mr. Cochrane.] In regard to the fine you would impose upon men who did not use the sprays, what would you fix it at?—lt depends upon the number of convictions. The first time a man would probably be warned; the second time the fine might be 10s.; and for the third or fourth offence the Inspector of Mines might ask for £5. I would fix the maximum at £5. 55. Then it lias been suggested that the present period for returning to misfires should be reduced from three hours to one : what is your opinion on that point ? —Well, I think it is a very wise suggestion indeed. If 3 r our hole is not going to explode in an hour it is extremely improbable that it will explode at all after the hour is over. 56. It has been suggested that the engine-driver should always be present in the engine-room when men are below, no matter how few?— Well, if you have any number of men underground, I think a man ought to be on his footplate or at his engine the whole time for the safety of the men underground. 57. If there were ten men below would 3'ou have a man there? —That is a matter I would not care to express an opinion upon. 58. Then it has been said that men strain themselves taking heavy timber from the ladders, and it is contended that one man is not sufficient to deal with it. Have 3'ou anything to say as to that?—l do not think there is an3'thing in that contention. Of course, occasionally you will have a very heav3' leg or cap. If there is any heav3 r timber to go down you usualty have more than one man —perhaps three of four—to handle it. Of course, if a chamberman has to handle a large amount of heavy timber by himself it would be a strain on him if he had to move

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it any distance, but if he only has to take it out of the cage and lean it up against the side there is no necessity for assistance. As a matter of fact, they run the pick into it and haul it out that way. 59. As to the size of travelling-ways, what is your opinion as to having travelling-ways (not passes) 4 ft. by 4 ft. ? —For what purpose, in and out of the stopes? 60. Yes, and for better ventilation? —I do not see that that is going to help at all. If a block of ground has been properly developed it will have rises and passes, and you can get ample ventilation up there. 61. The Chairman.] I think it was in regard to ladders?—ln that case, as the stopes advanced above the levels, and therefore the length of ladders increased, it is always possible to make the journey never more than one-half the length of backs—that is, when the stope is at the half-way point between the levels it is always possible to work down from the level above, and not up from below. 62. Mr. Cochrane.] What is your idea as to the necessity for fans for providing currents of air in the larger mines?—lf you have natural ventilation which is sufficient I see no necessity for having fans. 6.3. But if it were not sufficient what then —would you be in favour of installing large fans? —It would depend upon the particular mine, and the method of working that mine, as to whether it would be advisable to install fans. 64. Then are you in favour of having the winzes well down to meet the rises?— No. 65. For what reason? —In the first place, I do not see any necessity for winzing, at more than three times the cost of rising, when the men can obtain the same amount or equally good air in the top of the rise, and they do not have to work in the wet. If you are winzing there is always a certain amount of water in the bottom of the winze. If you have a misfire hole the silt from the water in the bottom of the winze or the shaft is apt to silt up the hole. There may be a block of dynamite in there, unexploded, and you are apt to dril] into it. You have to take your chance of that. But in rises you can see exactly how your holes have come. You can feel with a charging-stick to see if there are any cartridges. 66. But do you not think it is advisable — because the ventilation in the heated air is less likely to come down from the rise, whereas in the winze it tends to rise upwards—for better ventilation? —No, because I do not admit that the ventilation in a rise is at all detrimental to health. 67. It is generally the worst-ventilated place in the mines? —If you have no means of bringing any air up there, but not if you have compressed air to disperse any noxious gases found there. 68. Mr. Bowgray .] In connection with the winzes is it not a fact that the hot air will stop there, and it will take more compressed air to shift the hot air then in the winze? —The hot air will always rise, that is quite true; but if you are prepared to lead up your fresh air into the working-place, and can then put the same or better ventilation in a rise with compressed air, then there is no necessity to sink. 69. The dust plays an important part?— But if the mine-managers had the power to bring a man before the Inspector of Mines for refusing to use the spray it would meet the case. 70. Would you be in favour of mine-managers undergoing a course of law to qualify them for inflicting a fine?— There is no need for that. You have it in the Act at present that a miner using a machine has to use the spray, and if he does not do so the manager knows that he (the miner) is breaking the law. 71. Do you consider that when anything becomes law it should be compulsory on both sides? —Quite so. If the Mining Act provides that the men must use sprays they must be supplied by the company, or the company should be fined. 72. The Chairman.'] 'And anything that is compulsory upon the mine-owners to supply should be compulsory upon the men to use? —Certainly. 73. Mr. Dowgray.] We will turn to subsection (37) of section 254, in regard to boilers. You stated, in reply to Mr. Molineaux, that you did not think the hydraulic test was a good one? —No, I said it was an excellent test. 74. But if applied annually? —I said there was no necessity to apply it annually. When you turn a boiler out of a foundry you have to put it under that test to show that it is in first-class order, and that it has the safety factor. You are not going to run any great risk of your boiler bursting; but if you are going to apply that test every year you are putting a strain on it more than it has to stand. 75. When you get a boiler made is it not guaranteed to stand about ten times its workingpressure? —No, that is not the rule in South Africa. Ido not know the rule here. 76. What is the rule in South Africa? Is the hydraulic test carried out there?—lt is carried out there if the Inspector of Machinery wants it done. 77. Do you think it is the best test? —Yes, for a new boiler. 78. If a boiler is going to burst with one and a half times its working-pressure is it not better to burst under the test? —No, because it is mighty seldom you get up to one and a half times. If you have a 1401b. boiler you are not going up to 2101b. often. 79. In connection with the matter of the engine-drivers you said, in reply to Mr. Molineaux, that the learner ought to practice winding men. Would it not be just as well for him to practice at the same speed as with men? —No. W T hen I was shift-bossing; I was anxious to learn winding. I did some driving, but I knew there was only reef on board. I used to do that every night for an hour. Then the driver asked me to run up a load of men at half-speed. The fact that I knew the men were aboard, and that if anything happened I would be responsible or the driver, put a great deal more strain upon me, I am sure. The mere fact that there were men aboard, and not reef, will put you under a great strain. You are looking out for something going wrong.

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80. But if you have been practising for a long time? —I made a suggestion that a man should be hauling mullock for some time before he is allowed to haul any men. Ido not say that a man should go on to learn by hoisting mullock for two or three days and then say, " I know the ropes now, and I will have a shot at hoisting men." Ido not agree with that. 81. Would the men have the same confidence in a driver if they knew he had only practised hauling mullock?— Certainly, they would not. 82. Mr. Parry.] You said you would be increasing the burden of the mine by having three compartments : would you explain to the Commission how these men get their timber up these rises? —They have several methods. The old method was to get up to the top of the rise, lower down a rope which was fastened to the logs, and so haul them into position. Another way is to have a windlass at the bottom, carrying a rope up over a pulley, and haul it up in that way. A third way is to use an air-winch. 83. In what way does your company get the timber up to those high rises? —At the present time by Holman hoists. Bi. The Chairman.] After a certain height is reached would, you be in favour of hauling it up hand over hand? —That is not a question for me to decide; but it is a very simple matter to rig up a windlass at the bottom and a block overhead. The mine-managers are only too pleased for the men to do it, because they are going to get on with their work all the faster. 85. Do the men have to be supplied with the timber at the foot of the rise? —At the bottom of the rise. 86. If the men want block-and-tackle and windlass can they get it?— Yes, if they request it. 87. Mr. Parry.] With regard to the workmen's inspector, do you think he should have more power than he has at present ?—No, I think he has quite sufficient. 88. You do not think that the workmen's inspector should have the power to fine the company in the event of their not carrying out the Act? —What for? Is the workmen's inspector the representative of the Government? Richard Cbowley sworn and examined. (No. 69.) 1. The What are you? —An engine-driver. 2. In what mine? —The Energetic. 3. What certificate do you hold? —A winding certificate. 4. What experience have you had? —Nearly two years' winding experience altogether—that is, as a probationer and a certificated driver. 5. Do you represent the union?— Yes, I am president of the lleefton branch of the Westland Engine-drivers' Union. 6. How many members have you? —We have about thirty-five in the Reef ton branch. 7. Have you been delegated to voice the views of your union? —Yes. 8. What do you wish to bring before the Commission? —Well, my union has instructed me to protest against the new code of signals which has been given to us this last week or so, to lodge with the Commission our objections, and to give reasons why we object to the new code. In the first place, the most important change is the provision of a four-bell signal for hoisting men to the surface. We object to that on the ground that it is similar to another signal that is very often used in the course of hoisting operations, and we are iiable to be confused with the two signals. The other signal to which I refer is five bells for changing levels, and we hold that the signal in the old code was more efficient and less liable to be misunderstood when it was given. It was three bells and then a pause, and then one bell. The next objection we have is to giving three bells to hoist material. The old code provided one bell for this signal, and one bell was more efficient than three; it was less to listen to, and it was a minimum of signal for a maximum of efficiency. The next objection we have is to the five-bell signal for changing levels, because it is very confusing, and we have enough bells to listen to as it is. We cannot see how this five-bell signal is going to make any difference in the work or to minimize accidents, because under the old system all signals to levels assumed men on board, and the way it is worked now they do not. 9. This code assumes the same thing? —Well, it does not say so on the code we have. There are no instructions on it. It is left for the driver to assume anything he likes. 10. That assumption is clearly included in this new code. It says, "It must always be understood that there are men on the cage in the interlevel signals "1 —Well, on the code I worked off to-day there was no such instruction as that. It just gave the signals and the numbers of the levels. 11. Is this information given on your notice: "When ringing the cage from a level to another level the number of the ward must be rung first, and then the number of the level in that ward " ? —No, there is nothing like that on our code. 12. Will you look at this printed code, included in these new regulations? —[Regulations examined by witness.] There is not so much on the signal-board at the mine as there is on this, and there are no instructions on it at all. It simply gives the signals and the numbers of. the levels. 13. Do you understand the instruction that when ringing the cage from one level to another the ward system must be used? —What do you mean by the " ward " system? I have never heard the term " ward " used in connection with practical mining, nor do I understand it. It is quite foreign to me, and I do not think any winder on this field would understand a man below if he rung the ward signals according to this new code. In regard to these three bells for hauling up a cage, I want to say that in the old code we only had a one-bell signal, and it proved all right, working satisfactorily for the last twenty years. It was simple, and if there is anything we enginedrivers want it is simplicity in signals. We contend that the one-bell signal to haul the cage is preferable to the three-bell signal provided in this code. 14. What do you understand by the interlevel signals?— Under the old code all signals to levels assumed men"on board, but there are no such instructions in the new code.

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10. .out it is nere, in tne new cove, as prmtea in mese regulations. , —wen, we nave to woriv oy the calico signals at the mine, and it is not there. 16. What do you understand is meant by the proviso, " It must always be understood that there are men on the cage in the interlevel signals"? —We assume that there are men on board the cage when we get the signal to come to the level. 17. That is what you would understand by this new instruction? —Yes. 18. Then that is practically the same as your old code?— That is the point I want to make —that the five-bell signal is unnecessary. 19. You only assume men on the cage when an interlevel signal is given? —Yes; but with this four-bell signal you get no further instructions—it just says, " Men on cage." 20. Supposing the cage was standing at No. 5, and you got the signal to go to No. 8, where it was intended to lift men, }'ou would shift the cage from sto 8. What signal would }*ou expect to get?—l would get five bells, and then the number of the level. 21. You would get five bells first?— Yes, because this new code says, "Five bells, change level." When the man below rings the five bells he wants to change the level, and the driver assumes that and waits to get the number of the level to which the cage is to go. Supposing it is No. 8, he will get three more bells, then two and a pause, and three-more again. 22. That is to lower to No. 8 : what are you going to do with the cage when )'ou get it there? —Leave it there till I get another signal. I think a driver would need two clerks to put down the number of bells. I have never seen this code till to-night. According to it, to take the cage to two levels, the driver would have to listen to twenty-six signals, whereas under the old code he would get only eleven. 23. And they would vary according to the numbers of the levels you wanted to go to?— Yes. 24. Supposing you wanted to go from No. 8 to No. 9, and take men down to No. 10, how many signals would you have to give? —Twenty-eight. If there had been anything wrong with the old code we could have readily understood their changing it; but with a certificated man in charge there has only been one fatal accident, and that was brought about by putting two men on the platform while the shift was being lowered. Of course, another accident occurred when the man in charge was not certificated. I do not see any provision in this new code for blasting. That is something we want in a code of signals, and also a signal for turning on and off the air —it is very important where pipes may burst. 25. Mr. Dowgray .] In regard to the signal four bells for " Men on cage," should they not give other three bells to haul the men up?— That is a matter of opinion : the regulations do not say so. 26. Tlve Supposing you get a four-bell signal, and you know there are men on the cage, do you know what you are to do with them? It seems to me quite clear that the only assumption you can make is that there are men on the cage —there is no other assumption allowed you?—No, provided you have not any special arrangement with the chamberman. 27. But you ought not to require to make any special arrangement with the chamberman?— No, not with a proper code, but this is not a proper code. 28. Mr. Mnlineaux.] Taking these signals for the levels, what was your knock under the old code for No. 2 level? —I do not know; we have no No. 2 level where we are. 29. What levels have you? —From 3 down, without counting 5. 30. What is your knock for No. 4 level? —Four and one. 31. And by this new system? —It is one and four. 32. You can see that one bell followed by one bell is No. 1 level—that is simple enough? —Yes. 33. Then these knocks between levels are satisfactory? —Yes. 34. Your trouble seems to be with the knocks to stop and raise?— Yes. The main trouble is that in the system now in vogue they have taken the one-bell signal to hoist mullock. 35. What were your old signals? —Two bells, "Lower"; three and one, "Men on board — hoist to surface"; four bells, "Blasting"; five bells, "Turn on air"; six bells, "Turn off air." And for the levels —No. 1, four and three; No. 2 was never used; No. 3, two and one; No. 4, four and one; No. 6, three and three; No. 7, three and two; No. 8, two and two; No. 9, two and three; No. 10, two and four; No. 11, four and two. For No. 12 level the proposed signal was three and four, and for No. 13 four and four. 36. Of course, you are accustomed to those signals; but when you come to look at these new ones do you not think they are simpler between the levels? —Yes, we admit that, if you take the five-bell signal out of them. 37. You understand what a ward is? —One of the Commissioners says it is a group of five levels. 38. Now, when you were learning to drive, how did you get your experience?—By actual practice. 39. Under a certificated man? —Yes. 40. Did lie allow you to raise and lower men? —Yes. 41. And where was he when you were raising and lowering men? —Standing alongside me. 42. In such a position as to be able to control the engine in the event of your making a slip? —Yes. 43. Do you consider that a man could become competent to take an engine " on his own " without having previously raised and lowered men in the presence of a certificated driver? —Yes, he would be able to handle an engine all right, but it would be different when he was lowering men. If he got his certificate first, and then obtained a position as a winder, one of his first duties would be to raise or lower men, and I doubt if he would be able to do it. 44. Then you think he should have some experience of raising and lowering men before he sits for the examination? —Yes.

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45. With regard to the raising and lowering of men, do you consider that it would tend to minimize the liability to accidents if there were two certificated drivers together on the platform? —No. 46. Why not?— Because it is a duty of the utmost importance, and, as far as possible, the engine-driver should be entirely by himself when he is doing it. When two men are together like that the man at the handles talks to the other man sometimes on matters which have just occurred during a shift, and his attention is thus diverted. 47. As a matter of fact, then, you would rather have the engine-room to yourself?— Yes, certainly. 48. Mr. Parry.] Did it ever occur to you that there is a great risk incurred by one man raising and lowering men ? —lt is possible, certainly, but that is a matter which it is easy to overcome, because at the present all drivers have to undergo a severe medical test, and if there is any likelihood of anything of the kind happening it is not hard to get a driver to subject himself to the medical test. 49. Have you ever heard of such an accident taking place?— Well, I was only told the other day of an accident of the kind in England a few years ago, where a man dropped dead at his work. 50. Do you think it would be advantageous to have direct communication from the chamberman to the driver by telephone or speaking-tube?— Yes, it would be an improvement on the present system, because knocker-lines are liable to break sometimes. 51. And it is handy sometimes to have communication with your chamberman?—Yes. 52. Mr. Molineaux.] What is your opinion of the speeds mentioned in clause (sa) of Regulation No. 1 ?—Well, as far as speed is concerned, we think that it is advisable to leave that to the discretion of the driver. It says in this regulation that the maximum shall be 500 ft. a minute, but there is no reference to the place where the conveyance or cage is being worked. If a driver is winding out of a shaft in bad repair, and the cage when travelling at 500 ft. a minute struck a guide, there is a big chance of those men being killed, because that pace is a great deal too fast in an ill-kept shaft. 53. That is the maximum speed?— Yes. I do not see that exceeding 500 ft. a minute would be dangerous in a shaft in good repair. 54. But you consider that the speed could very well be left to the engine-drivers?— Yes, because there is always a check on them, not only in the condition of the shaft, but also in the objection which the men would have if they considered they were being raised or lowered too fast. If the men think they are being pulled up and down too fast they will speak to the management, and if the driver persists the result is obvious. This regulation fixes a maximum of 200 ft. a minute when coming to the top or getting to the stopping-place. I think that is rather low, because it would take a long time to raise or lower any number of men at all if that pace were observed. And, further, it is a great nervous strain on a driver when he is lowering his shift, and he likes to get the work over as quickly as possible. He is not going to drive recklessly, because he has to think of the ticket he holds. 55. What is the average speed in a good shaft? —Well, I would say that 800 ft. a minute is not an excessive speed by any means in a well-kept shaft. To minimize the risk of accident the only way, in our opinion, is to keep the shaft in good repair. If the object of these regulations is to prevent accidents in shafts through excessive speed in winding, then the maximum would have to be placed so low as to make it impracticable, because if your shaft is in bad repair even 200 ft. a minute will go very near to killing a man, for a driver cannot tell at the instant when his cage strikes anything in the shaft —it may have travelled 20 ft. before he knows. I consider that for a'shaft which is well kept the maximum of 800 ft. a minute is not too fast. 56. And as to the approach, at what distance should he slacken, and to what speed?—lt should be left to the driver. If the men think they are coming up too fast they will soon tell him. The first consideration, as I said before, should be the state of the shaft, and if it is in good repair there is little chance of accident. But this speed provided in these regulations will not prevent accidents if the shaft is bad. 57. The Chairman.'] I wish you to read this suggested code of signals, which has been submitted to the Commission by the Inspector of Mines. [Exhibit No. 23, " Suggested Code of Signals," perused by witness.] Have yoti any recommendation to make in regard to that code? —It is certainly a simpler code than the one already in existence, but I think it may be modified further yet. 58. Would it not be well if your Engine-drivers' Union were to meet and draft a code of signals to be submitted to the Commission before it leaves the district ? —Yes, we would be prepared to do that if you wish. Thomas Otto Bishop sworn and examined. (No. 70.) 1. The Chairman.] You are the Inspector of Mines for the district?— Yes. 2. How long have you been Inspector of Mines?— Four months. 3. First of all, you liave heard the evidence of the last witness in regard to this new code of signals. Have you anything to say respecting them ?—Re'garding the signals recently gazetted I think that for the numbering of the levels it is a great improvement on the old system on account of its uniformity and simplicity. The last witness appeared to me not to quite understand that the number of bells in the model column in these regulations are not to be given when giving the signals. Then, sir, I have here a suggested code of signals, which has been approved by all the mine-managers on the field. I should like to place this code before the Commission as an exhibit. [Exhibit No. 23, " Suggested Code of Signals," put in.] 4. You recommend that this code be adopted as being simpler than the present one, and the mine-managers consider it would be perfectly satisfactory?— Yes, that is' my opinion also.

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5. And it could be made uniform?— Yes. It has been suggested to-day that the accident signal in this suggested code should be made nine bells instead of seven, so as to make it distinctive from any other signal. That may be done. To avoid the No. 11 level signal clashing 1 have left it out altogether and gone from No. 10 to No. 12. It is always to be understood that men are on board when the number of the level is rung. I would also add that no one should give those signals except the chamberman. 6. And as to levers on knocker-lines? —They would be quite workable, and it would be easier if they were provided. 7. Have you any suggestions to offer on your own behalf, either in regard to matters which have come under your notice as Inspector or prior to your appointment —any clauses in the Act which require amendment I —Yes. Subsection (42) of section 254 should, 1 think, be made to apply to every mine worked by a shaft. The subsection reads, "In every mine which, in the opinion of an Inspector, is liable to an inundation or inburst of water, such additional rises, chambers, drives, and other workings shall be constructed as are necessary and as are prescribed by the Minister or the Inspector, in order to ensure the escape of workmen from the lower workings or their safety in the mine during the period of any inundation or inburst of water." 1 would make that apply to any shaft irrespective of danger from water. And while I have the Act open at this particular place I would like to make an explanation in regard to subsection (43). It has been stated to-day that some one was to blame for not having that subsection enforced, it provides for platforms in ladderways, and says, " Ladders (and, when necessary, convenient platforms connected therewith). ,, 8. Mr. But it was subsection (30) which was referred to?— But subsection (43) appears to apply to these ladders leading up into the stopes. Those words " when necessary " give the Inspector discretionary power, and in my opinion those platforms are in use on this field when necessary. 1 have had some put in at my request, and where they have not been put in 1 do not consider they are necessary. 9. The Chairman.] What is a "travelling-way" within the meaning of that subsection? — Every ladderway leading from a level to a stope. They are temporary travelling-ways while that particular stope is being worked. Subsection (30) specially uses the word " permanently." 10. In a mine where the men are lowered down in a cage, and do not, as a general thing, use the ladders, would you consider there was a permanent travelling-way at- all?— Yes, because those ladders are provided for exit in case of anything going wrong. They are permanent for the life of the mine; whereas those others are only for use while the ground between the two levels is being worked out. 11. Would you suggest that " permanent travelling-way " should be more accurately defined? —It does not appear to be necessary. The permanent travelling-ways are in the main shaft. They are the only travelling-ways that are ordered by the Mining Act. 12. Is there a permanent travelling-way in each of these shafts? —Yes, there is a ladder compartment there. Then, in regard to section 266, subsection (4), which relates to the official inquiry into fatal accidents, I would like to suggest that the inquiry be held by the Warden alone, and not, as is already required, by the Warden sitting with two assessors, who require to be certificated mine-managers. 13. If two assessors are considered necessary would you suggest any change in them?—ln that case it would be only fair, as has been requested by a previous witness, to give a workmen's representative a seat on the Bench. But, personally, I think the Warden, being a trained legal expert, with the ability to decide on evidence, should constitute the Court without calling in mine-managers, who are asked to deal with what is practically a manslaughter charge against a member of their profession. Then, I wish to make reference to paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of section 254, which provides for water sprays being made compulsory where rock-drills are used in a mine. I would suggest that they be made compulsory in every mine, if considered necessary by the Inspector, whether rock-drills are used or not. There is another matter I would like to suggest, and that is that no oil-engine should be used underground in a mine which depends upon natural ventilation alone. There is an oil-engine underground in a mine in my district, and I have no power to deal with it under the Act as it stands at present. 14. What is your objection?— The fumes are delivered into the upcast. Ihe bottom of that upcast is open, and at present the fumes from the oil-engine are delivered into the open bottom connected with the higher workings. I am afraid that in the summer, if the current reverses, there will be danger to the men. In making these remarks I am speaking from practical experience of a similar thing. It has been suggested several times to-day that if it is made compulsory for the management to provide sprays and other matters it should also be made compulsory for the men to use them. That is made compulsory already by section 256. Then, section 261 has also been referred to, and I think it would be better if it were amended. The amendment I would suggest is that the Inspector of Mines should have the power to stop the work pending the hearing of the appeal. 15. What about the times at present provided? —The times would shorten themselves naturally if that were done. 16. What about the seven days which the owner has in which to send his objections to the Warden? —That could be shortened considerably; there is no need for it. 17. In connection with the power to stop a place, what do you think of the suggestion that the workmen's inspectors should have power to stop places? —Well, subsections (a) and (&) of section 262 make it an offence if workmen do not notify any danger which they may become aware of in any place. There is also a section in the Coal-mines Act which gives the workmen practically the power to stop a place. They are told they must notify the management of any defect in their working-place, and they shall not work there until the danger has been removed.

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18. Would you suggest that the same power be given to metal-miners ■ —'that the provisions of the two Acts be made uniform? —Yes; but I think a slight alteration in this subsection (6) would meet the case. While on this subject I would like to say a few words regarding the power of workmen's inspectors to go down a mine only once a month. Subsection (6) of section 271 says, " In the performance of his duties and functions under this Act, the Inspector, or any person appointed by him in writing, shall at all convenient times have full and free access to any such mine or machinery." Now, I would suggest that if the workmen's inspector wants to inspect a mine more than once a month he might come to the Inspector of Mines and obtain authority in writing to do so. I think that would meet the difficulty, at any rate, to a certain extent. 19. On reading that subsection, where it says " The Inspector, in the performance of his duties and functions under this Act," it appears to me that you would then be appointing the workmen's inspector to discharge your duties? —Well, I once had occasion to use that section w T hen I wanted another opinion beside my own upon a matter. I took a certificated mine-manager. 20. Yes, that is quite in accordance with the spirit and intention of the Act; but would you go the length of giving a general power to the workmen's inspector under this section to perform your duties under the Act? —No, I do not think I would go that far; but it occurred to me that this section gave the workmen's inspector an opportunity of seeing anything which was reported to him, say, a week later than he had made his monthly report. If he made a complaint to the Government Inspector perhaps he might be allowed to go down. 21. I am afraid that you would be putting your duties on to the workmen's inspector?—lt had not occurred to me in that light. 22. Would you advocate that power be given to you to give increased opportunities of inspection to the workmen's inspector if you considered it necessary? At the present time he is entitled to go down at least once a month. Would you have that section amended so as to give you power to give him permission to make inspections more often than that? —I do not see any objection to giving him direct power; but, assuming that he does not get direct power, I would be prepared to give him the other. 23. What power would you give him —unlimited power? —Simply the power to carry out his inspections more frequently than once a month. 24. How many?—l would leave that to the Inspector of Mines. The workmen's inspector should be called upon to give some reason for his extra visits. 25. That means that he would be able to inspect at such times as the Inspector of Mines would give him power to do so?— Yes, that is what I mean. 26. Now, it has been suggested that larger powers should be given to the Inspector of Mines to deal with the -matter of ventilation, and, generally, more specific powers in order to meet difficulties which might arise in the way of fixing standards. In the first place, what is your opinion of a fixed standard of temperature?—l do not like a fixed standard for temperature. I think it is better not to have a fixed standard. 27. Then, in lieu of a fixed standard, would you be in favour of more extensive powers being placed in the hands of the Inspector? —Yes, if we are not to have a fixed standard the Inspector must have more powers to decide a six-hour place. 28. Would you advocate a temperature standard or a quality standard of air? —A temperature standard depends upon the quality standard. You may, without injury, have a high temperature in clean fresh air, and the same temperature in vitiated air would be injurious, so that it is exceedingly difficult to fix a standard temperature. I have been in places in mines where the temperature was comparatively low according to mining standards, and yet I have considered that such places were not in a,fit condition for working in. 29. What do you attribute that to?— That is a rather difficult question to answer. There is no doubt that bad conditions do obtain sometimes which are rather hard to explain. Possibly humidity and stagnation of the air have a good deal to do with it. For instance, if you are in a hot room and wave a fan you do not cool the air, though you may not feel it so hot. 30. It has been suggested that Inspectors of Mines should have summary powers of prosecution—that is to say, that without reference to anybody else, if they find bad conditions they should, on their own initiative, be empowered to institute proceedings, such cases to be taken before a Warden or a Magistrate. Have you anything to say on that point?— The present machinery is rather cumbersome. For instance, if Igo down a mine and see a man committing a breach of the Act or regulations I have to obtain permission from the Head Office before prosecuting. It would be better if I could deal with that man myself. 31. You- have heard the suggestion that Inspectors or mine-managers should have summary powers of inflicting fines in such cases. What have you to say on that point? —I should prefer to bring the man before the Court. And, of course, what applies to prosecuting a man for a breach of the Act also applies to prosecuting his employers. Speaking as to the ventilation question, there is considerable ambiguity in the amount of air prescribed for workmen. The Act says that 100 cubic feet per man per minute shall be provided. Personally, I interpret it to mean that if there were a hundred men working in a mine there must be 100 cubic feet of air for every one of those men passing through the mine. But another interpretation is that there need only be 100 ft. of air passing through altogether and going to each man in turn. 32. How would you remedy it? How would you suggest the section should be recast? —It would be a good idea to make the standard of quantity secondary to the Inspector's opinion. At present there is a standard fixed, but the Inspector may demand more if he thinks it necessary. I would make it so that the Inspector might demand so-much, and in no case should it be less than the standard quantity.

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33. Would you suggest anything in regard to the quality of the air? —You mean a standard of analysis ? 34. Supposing you put it this way : that every mine and every part thereof shall be well and efficiently ventilated, and so on, and in no case shall there be less than a given quantity of air of a given quality?— Yes, 1 would agree to that; and the given quality might be the standard fixed by the British Royal Commission. I certainly would not have it any lower than that. 35. You think that would assist you in enforcing good ventilation?— Yes, it would give Inspectors increased power. 36. Mr. Cochrane.'] Have you any opinion to express with regard to electric firing?—l have had some experience with electric firing. 37. Do you consider it better than firing by means of the fuse? —In some cases I think it is. 38. In what cases? —In cases where there is a difficulty in getting away from the shots I think probably electric firing is safer than fuse firing. 39. Do you consider it more effective? —No, I consider it less effective,, in certain classes of work. 40. In which classes? —I had experience of driving a tunnel 13 ft. wide by 9 ft. high, and in that case we tried electric firing and found that we had to fire four times to get an effective firing. We were firing from twelve to twenty-three holes, according to the nature of the ground, and when it came up to twenty-three holes we had to fire as many as four times to get an effective break. 41. Does not that point to deficient voltage?—No; it means that to do their work the holes must go in succession. With electric firing your holes go as one instantaneous blast, and they are more liable to cut each other out. I have seen misfires by electricity, when I have had a series of holes coupled up altogether. . 42. Have you seen statistics showing the relative failures of fuse and electricity?—No, I have not studied the subject in that way. 43. Then, as to the time for returning after misfires, what is your opinion as to reducing the period to one hour ?—Well, it might be reduced, because, though the Act states that men shall wait three hours, I know,that they do not. I have never waited that time myself. 44. And do you think they might probably wait one hour if it were fixed at that? —I do. 45. What have you to say as to the box system in rises, as is general throughout the Thames and Waihi districts, or would you wish to see that system before expressing an opinion ?—I do not know what is meant by the box system, but I have put up three-compartment rises on this field. 46. How did that answer for ventilation? —Well, we had no artificial ventilation in that rise, and a three-compartment rise with no artificial ventilation is better than a two-compartment rise. It is quite possible to ventilate a two-compartment rise. 47. Is it not often the case that one compartment is choked with stone? —It often is, though there is no need for it. It could be made a stipulation that as fast as the mullock is put in at the top it should be taken out at the bottom. 48. Do you think that would be an improvement?—lf you have not any artificial ventilation it certainly would, but I would not make it compulsory in all cases. If the manager is prepared to put in artificial ventilation there is no necessity. I do think that the men in a rise should have any amount of fresh air, and they can get that without making a three-compartment rise of it. 49. Have you any opinion to offer as "to keeping winzes well down to meet the rises? —It has not occurred to me that it is necessary to do that on this field. 50. Then, in regard to the table which you have submitted to us, in some cases the ventilation is slightly under the standard. You give the Progress Mine with the quantity of air per man as 89 and 98 cubic feet?— That is taken in different ways. One is taken in the intake, and the other in the return. It is impossible to measure all the intake in the Progress Mine, because there are leakages going off in other levels. 51. Do I understand that it is up to the required quantity?—l think it is just about up to the 100 cubic feet on the lesser interpretation. If you will look down a little further on that table you will notice that in connection with that mine I have divided the air into sections. I was not able to do that in any other mine, because they are not arranged in that way. There are twentythree men served by "that 5,103 cubic feet. Then, the quantity of air measured in No. 10 level is the quantity coming out above the No. 11 or Pioneer stopes. On the day I took those measurements there were thirty-four men and 3,537 cubic feet, givintr 104 cubic feet per man. I took the temperatures there,' and they varied from 75° to 78° wet bulb, and from 77° to 79° dry bulb. 52. Did you notice the men not working were perspiring there? What did you consider was the condition'of that place for men who have to work there?— That was the place I had in mind when I was speaking as to the standard. The conditions could be very easily improved. It was below the maximum standard of temperature, and yet objectionable. 53. Is that not an argument in favour of the standard for temperature?— That was below the standard of temperature usually recommended. I think it is rather an argument against the standard. 54. Do you think the conditions were all right, then, in those stopes?—l do not consider that was a satisfactorily ventilated stope. 55. Have you anything to recommend to obtain better ventilations? —My recommendation would be that artificial ventilation should be made compulsory in all quartz-mines of any size. I believe in having any amount of fresh air in a mine. The more air you give the men the better results you will get. . 56. Perhaps you heard one witness desire travelling-passes, winzes, and rises to be 4 ft. by 4 ft. : have you anything to say as to that? —I do not think there is any real necessity for that. That brings in the question of those platforms again. 57. Do you think it would be advisable to have the ambiguity removed, and have you any recommendation to make as to there being no vertical ladders in any travelling-roads, whether i

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permanent or otherwise? —According to the Act it is now provided that no new vertical ladders shall be put in in a permanent way. Sometimes in a stope it is impossible to avoid putting in a short ladder. It would mean a divergence of the pass. I may say that I only know of one man having fallen off a ladder, and he admitted that he thought he was at the bottom. I have never heard of any other accident of that sort. 58. Do you think it would be advisable to have the. ambiguity removed from these two sections regarding the ladders?— Certainly, all ambiguity should be removed. 59. Now, coming to the question of check inspectors having power to stop places., would you be in favour of the Inspector of Mines having that power if he considered the places dangerous? —Yes. 60. You mentioned that you were in favour of more frequent inspections by check inspectors. Is it not likely that the Inspector of Mines may be absent, otherwise the check inspector would naturally get him to inspect ?—Yes, there is that difficulty. 61. Would you be in favour of reducing the time to once a week, or do you think that would be too often ? —Of course, there are check inspectors and check inspectors. If a check inspector carries out his duty in as fair and just a manner as he possibly can, then I see no objection to giving him the right to go down as often as he pleases; but, as was pointed out by a witness to-day, the check inspector occupies rather a peculiar position. He has to be selected for many qualities. He has to be the secretary of his union, and also a qualified practical miner, with some years' experience; and I think a man who has not the practical qualifications is apt to be elected to this position over the head of another man who has. lam simply saying that this doubt arises. 62. Do you think the case might be met by providing for a fortnightly visit? —I am not in favour of limiting the time at all. I do not see any objection to giving him the power to go down as often as he pleases, provided lie is a man capable of doing his duty. 6.3. The Chairman A Supposing the Inspector of Mines, apart from putting the workmen's inspector through an examination, were satisfied that he was qualified, would you be in favour of giving him the unlimited right of making inspections whenever he pleased?— Well, that is placing rather much on the Inspector of Mines. It is practically making the Inspector of Mines the examiner of the workmen's inspectors. 64. If you are satisfied with his mining qualifications would there be any objection to giving yon power to give him permission to visit the mine as often as he wishes? He could get his power from you, and you could give it according to the man's qualifications? —1 do not think that responsibility should be placed upon the Government Inspector. The check inspector should get his power from the Mining Act direct. In special cases he might get it from the Inspector of Mines. 65. Supposing you gave him the general power what check could you put upon his qualifications? —Well, this is the age of examinations. If the check inspector were asked to pass an examination similar to that of a deputy, conducted by two members of the Board of Examiners, it might be a good idea. 66. Mr. Cochrane.] I was not quite clear as to what you meant by the standard of quantity being subject to the Inspector of Mines?— The Act says that the amount of air provided shall be 100 cubic feet per man, or, in case the Inspector of Mines is not satisfied with that amount, he has power to demand such increased quantity as he deems necessary. I would reverse the order and make the standard such as the Inspector deems necessary, and in no case shall it be less than 100 cubic feet per man per minute. , . 67. Then, I will place an hypothetical case before you. Supposing you find the air m a mine to have sufficient oxygen and no deleterious amount of carbonic oxide or acid, and yet the men complain of feeling bad effects, how would you account for that in a place where the air-analysis was good?—I know that such cases do exist, and I admit that I cannot account for them. 68 Does it point to a defect in the taking of the samples or analvsis?—lt may. We take very small samples. It may be due to not getting a fair sample. I take them myself. 69 How long have you been taking samples?— Since before T was appointed Inspector. 70. Mr. Molineaux'.] I understand that you consider it would be advisable if there were artificial ventilation in these mines? —Yes. 71 Taking the two deep mines here—the Energetic and the New Big River—do you not consider them efficiently ventilated ?—I consider they are fairly well ventilated mines, but not sufficiently well ventilated. I think there should be more air passing through every mine in this field. 72 Notwithstanding the fact that they show 105 and 124 cubic feet per man?— Yes, that is so. 73' But there is no reversal of current in these mines?— There is a cessation of current in summer, and if you will turn to one of those tables of mine you will find it 74 What do you consider the best method of dealing with misfires with mtro-glycerme compounds'?— I think the safest way is to draw a portion of the tampingr and put a second primer m 75.'D0 you consider that'the appointment of shot-firers would minimize accidents?—No, I ° n 76 C °With er re2ard P toThis code of signals, it has been suggested that there should be another item added—namely, four bells to mean that blasting is to be carried on?— Yes, that might be adde 7 d 7 wIuM vo? C on,id O er e that an advantage ?-Yes, it might be of use in shaft-sinking. Of course, with the'system of shaft-sinking in vogue here it would not be of use except for calling for Comp 7 r B eSS^ d ou al e r xpressed yourse if in favour of there being levers on the knocker-lines t-Yee, I think U T 9 ld wiuWH e ,fot a rope?-It would depend upon how they were attached. 80 It would be a greater strain on the ropel—Yes, perhaps so, but that did not occur to me. 81: And the liability of breakage would be greater t—Yei, it would be a question of examining it more frequently.

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82. The Chairman..] Could you not put in a long splice and put the lever on to that? —Yes, there is no reason why that should not be done. ••■ 83. Mr. Dowgrap.] Would you be in favour of the workmen's inspector having the power to stop-a place until your return, if you were absent from the district for some time?—l have to be absent sometimes for two or three weeks at a time, but I am never out of reach of telegraphic or telephonic communication for more than twenty-four hours. Without the workmen's inspector having proved his qualifications in some way it seems to me to be rather unfair to give him the power to dictate to the mine-manager to that extent. 84. You are. assuming that every- check inspector requires to have the necessary qualifications to be also the secretary to the union? —1 was under that impression, but I was only speaking of my knowledge of Reefton 85. That is not so. You used the words " check inspector." Why should be be called " check inspector"—does he check you?— Well, it is because the term has come into general use. I have never given a thought to the meaning of it. 86. In legard to the tables you have supplied us with, it would seem that the air had already been used up in No. 9 level before it went to the stopes in No. 10?— That air measured in No. 9 had served twenty-three men working 1 between No. 10 and No. 9 levels. 87. Which means that some of the air has been measured three times? —Yes, it is the same volume ascending from one section to the other. 88. Mr. Parry A The suggestion that you have made here to-night is the outcome of a careful study of the distribution of the air in those mines that mechanical ventilation should be installed wherever men are working ?----That is so. 89. And you also admit that there are places and times in a mine which require a decrease of working-hours?— Yes, there are places in mines where men are entitled to work only six hours. 90. And you think that a six-hour place should be fixed? —Yes, there are places where six hours should be fixed

Ku-maha Courthouse. —28th October, 1911 - '. • James Alexander Murdoch sworn and examined. (No. 71.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you?— Mayor of Kumara, a solicitor, and an owner of several alluvial claims in this district. I would like to say that it is pleasing to me to see the Commission in Kumara. This district is a most important one from an alluvial point of view, and has a prosperous future before it on account; of, the completion of the Trans-Teremakau Water-race, which the Compassion inspected this morning. Under the heading of accidents in mines I would point out that on alluvial fields accidents are not so common as on quartz- or coal-mining fields. For the last twenty years the only accidents I can call to mind in this district are as follows : One by which a man named Thomas Hughes lost his life in a sluicing claim at Kumara. That accident was inevitable. I could not make any recommendation which would meet with all the risks taken by Mr,. Hughes. The next accident was to a Chinaman named Gum Woo, who was working in a tail-race at Westbrook Terrace when the sides broke in. The tail-race had been safeguarded in a way which was considered reasonable. I could not suggest any further safeguards. The next accident happened to a Chinaman named George Kum, who fell 50 ft. to the bottom of a , tail-race on the Greenstone Road. Next a European named John McKeegan, when wheeling 1 a barrow over.a.plank, was precipitated 20 ft. as the result of the plank breaking, and received injuries which caused his death. : In regard to this accident, also, I am afraid I cannot suggest anything which could be done to avoid such, an accident recurring. The next was an accident to John McGlone, who was clearing stones from the bottom of a high sluicing face when a stone ricochetted, from the face and struck him, fracturing his skull. I cannot think of any further accidents just now, but, speaking generally about those I have mentioned, I cannot suggest any recommendations which would obviate the risk of such mishaps. There is no doubt that in all sluicing claims the men have to take, risks, especially when clearing the stones from the face. This field-is a-very extensive one, but'the accidents during the last twenty years have been very few. With regard,.to the inquiry held, into fatalities, the personnel of the Court is the Warden and two mining assessors appointed from the mine-managers in the locality. I would like to suggest an alteration so that the miners themselves should be represented by a practical miner without requiring that he should hold a certificate.. .: • 2. Do you think that would be a better Court the Warden alone? —Yes. Of course, this isa democratic country; and we do not like to deny the miners representation, though I think it would practically bring it-back to what you suggest; but under the present system you have two certificated mine-managers whose class is really on its trial. On the other hand, you would have a representative of the management, and one ,from the miners, which would result in the decision being left to the Warden,- but he would have the advantage of being able to consult two practical men after hearing the evidence adduced. 3.' It has been suggested-that all Wardens in mining districts should have some practical mining experience?— Yes, 1 »have read the evidence tendered to the Commission by Mr. Fagan at Reefton, and I would like to say that I differ from his views. While I admit there is a good deal :to be said in favour of a gentleman occupying the position of Warden having practical experience, I can point to one instance where the Warden received his appointment having no previous practical experience,- and yet,he is,,in my opinion, one of the most able Magistrates and Wardens who have sat in,, these Courts, and is giving the greatest satisfaction to the profession aindsuitol-s generally. r.-Of , .course, u-jider the Mining. Act a suitor has the right on application to have his case heard before assessors either in the original jurisdiction of the Magistrate's Court or on appeal to the Appellate Court, but that is a procedure which is very seldom adopted. -If n _p.\ ■

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I might be permitted to say so 1 think the failures, so far us Wardens are concerned, have occurred in the past where men have been selected from the legal profession who were not making a decent livelihood, and received their appointments either out of sympathy or by favour. There is another matter which affects this district very materially. It comes under the heading of accidents in mines. Captain Richards, the Inspector of Mines for this district, holds that under the Mining Act he has the right to see that any subsidized tunnel or shaft shall be of a certain size for the safety of the men sinking the shaft or tunnel. Under the section in the Act you will find that a ladderway lias to be provided, and a shaft must be of a certain size to allow of a ladderway and also a hauling-compartment. But under the regulations subsidies are provided for a shaft as small as 5 ft. by 3 ft. 4. Mr. Reed.] 4 ft. by 3 ft.—is it as small as that I —Yes, where no timber is required. Well, that is the regulation, and the Inspector is quite right in contending that the section of the statute is not overridden by a regulation made by Order in Council. He lias suggested 10 ft. by 5 ft. as the necessary size of a shaft, although he does not lay it down as a hard-and-fast rule. Of course, that precludes a miners' association or a miner of limited means prospecting even with the aid of the small subsidy that is given by the Government. I .think the Commission should consider this as coming within their scope, and recommend that the section be altered so that where shafts are driven only for prospecting purposes a smaller size shall be sufficient. 5. The Chairman .] That would simply mean exempting from the section all prospectingshafts?—Yes. 6. That applies, apparently, only to dry ground : where it is wet the shaft must be 5 ft. by 3 ft.?— They are nearly all timbered; but, at any rate, you will see that under the section of the statute the Inspector of Mines has thrown upon him the responsibility of the whole matter, and yet the regulation provides for shafts 5 ft. by 4 ft. arid 5 ft. by 3 ft. It is an impossibility to have a ladderway and manhole in a shaft 5 ft. by 3 ft. 7. Mr. Parry.~\ In regard to the accidents which you say have occurred in the high faces in these claims, do I understand that the dirt and stones are taken down by means of a pick or other tool or by water? —By water. 8. And when men are taking down the face and stones there is a liability to accidents. Is it usual to take a face straight down ?— In some cases the ground does not fall as straight as in the claim you saw to-day. In " puggy " ground it falls entirely different to what it does in alluvial wash, which falls straight. 9. But in order to get over that difficulty would it not be safer to work your face in a slant — to take the top first?— That is not practicable. Very often the understratum is softer, and you must burrow there to bring the other down. 10. Well, the risk has to be run all the same?— Yes, but when cleaning out the face the water is off. 11. Mr. lined .] In regard to the size of the shafts which you referred to, if prospecting is considered a mining operation proper do you think the Inspector has any alternative but to insist upon a large shaft?—l think the interpretation clause precludes us from discussing that point; it is a mining operation. 12. And the Inspector has no alternative, then? —Even if he did not interfere with a person sinking a shaft it would affect all persons working under prospecting subsidies. 13. How would you propose that the men should descend in these 5 ft. by 3 ft. and 4 ft. by 3 ft. shafts?—l was in Rimu in '81 and '82, and the men there descended with the ordinary loop in the rope, and I do not know that there was ever an accident there. 14. Did they not use the bucket? —It was not so safe as the loop. 15. Do you know of any accidents through men using the loop?— No. 16. And you consider it perfectly safe?— Yes, in a small shaft it is better; a man can jam himself with his foot on one side and his body on the other. 17. Would you be in. favour of the regulation being amended to allow men to travel with the loop in prospecting-shafts? —Yes. 18. To what depth 1-- —I would leave that to the Inspector. 19. Would you insist upon two men being at the windlass? —Over a certain distance, yes. 20. How many men are engaged in mining about this district?— About a hundred. 21. Within what radius of Kumara?—That includes Kumara, Dillman's, Cape Terrace, Westbrook Terrace, and Larrikins. 22. And you stated that accidents here.aie very rare indeed? —Yes. Those I enumerated are all I can call to mind during the last twenty years, arid, as I said, they were inevitable. 23. Have you a miners' association here J- 2 - Yes. 24. Have they made any representations in regard to accidents? —No. 25. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you know of the circumstances which led Mr. Fagan to give the evidence you quoted in regard to the necessity for Wardens having practical experience of mining? You only quoted from the newspaper report. What would you think if you had a Magistrate who, after taking evidence and visiting the scene of the accident, admitted that he knew nothing of mining, and then refused to give a decision?—lt would be very hard for the parties. 26. In the event of an Inspector of Mines declaring that a certain place was not fit to work in, and the manager declaring it was, the case is taken before the Warden, who, after hearing both sides, visits the place, and then snys that owing to his lack of mining knowledge he is not able to give a decision? —He has all the powers in these matters of a Judge of the Supreme Court, and.even after both sides have exhausted their evidence he has the power to obtain competent expert advice. I can hardly conceive of a Warden taking up that position. 27. It may be hard to conceive of such a case, but it is a fact nevertheless, and it was that case which caused Mr. Fagan to express the opinion that Wardens should have practical mining experience?—l admitted that there was a great deal to be said in favour of it.

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Henri Stubbs sworn and examined. (No. 72.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A miner. 2. With how many years' experience?— About twenty. 3. In what line?— Sluicing. 4. Where have you gained your experience?— Mostly in Kumar a, but I \va,s also for six years at Barrytown, near Greymouth, sluicing. 5. In the course of your experience have you known of many accidents from falls of earth or machinery?—No, 1 have never seen but have heard of them. 6. Have you known of any from machinery or in shafts?—No; I have heard of them, of course, but have never seen any. 7. Have you any suggestions to offer in regard to the ventilation of siiafts, or their conditions generally? —No. The conditions here vary very considerably: sometimes the air is good, and sometimes there is a lack of air and they put a water-blast in, but that is not often necessary. You may be in blue reef, and then it is necessary to have more air. 8. How do you conduct your air in most cases? —In ordinary galvanized pipes about 4 in. in diameter. 9. Have you anything to suggest in regard to the tribunal which inquires into fatal accidents? Under the present Act the persons who constitute the Court are the Warden and two certificated mine-managers. Supposing a man were killed in a face, do you think the Court to inquire into the matter could be improved by having a miners' representative or by leaving it to the W T arden alone? —-Well, you see, on this field most of the sluicing is done by the owners of the claims themselves. I think in only two cases a manager is employed. In my own party four of us are owners. If a man were hurt in the Long Tunnel claim, for instance, it would perhaps be advisable to get independent assessors other than a manager. It would, I think, be advisable to have a miners' representative on the Court. 10. Have you anything else to bring before the Commission? —No. 11. Mr. Parry.] How many members have you in your miners' association?—l could not tell you exactly; about thirty or forty. 12. Do you find this sluicing-work healthy, as a rule? —Yes, I think so. But, of course, it is hard work —harder, I think, than coal-mining or reefing. 13. How many hours do you work? —Sometimes eight and sometimes ten. We are owners. 14. Are there any wages-men?—As a rule, very few; but if we keep a man working an hour extra to-day, to-morrow he is allowed to go away an hour earlier. There is no hard-and-fast rule as to hours. 15. You are all owners?— Yes, pretty well. I wish' also to say that I indorse the remarks of Mr. Murdoch in regard to the size of shafts. A shaft may be put down 60 ft. or 70 ft., and if no gold is found the work is finished and nothing more is done with it. It would be a waste of money if these large shafts were insisted on. HoSiTiKA Courthouse.—2Bth Octohur, 1911. John Maloney sworn and examined. (No. 73.) 1. The Chairman.} What are you?—A storekeeper and draper. 2. Have you done any mining?— Yes. 3. For how many years? —I have been quartz-mining for two years and a half or more. 4. Where? —I have been quartz-mining in Auckland and at Ross and Paparoa. 5. What is it you wish to bring before the Commission? —What I would like to say is that we should try to prevent miners' disease. 6. That is, the disease which arises from the inhalation of quartz-dust?— Yes. There are many young men who are almost powerless to-day, and yet five years ago they were quite strong and healthy. I wish to refer to one case in particular of which I know —that of a man named James Craze. That man, 1 am sure, could have been the champion boxer of New Zealand, he was so strong; and yet to-day, though he looks fairly well, I am certain he will do no more hard bodily labour. 7. What do you suggest should be done? —1 do-not know how to prevent it, but I think we ought, here and now, to form some kind of fund tojielp that man. We ought to gather money for him so that he will not feel dependent upon others. 8. That is altogether outside the scope of our inquiries. We are here to consider any suggestions which may be offered with a view to guarding against the disease? —I do not know how to guard against it. 9. Have you had any experience in dusty miues? —Yes; I, along with five others, was working twelve years ago driving what is called an " end " in Auckland. 10. In which mine?— The W T oodstock Mine, Karangahake. Before we had finished our contract five out of the six of us were spitting blood. We were using water, but still we were affected. Had there been no water there it would have been worse —in fact, it would have been impossible for us to work at all. The water kept it cool. Arthur Hicks Richards sworn and examined. (No. 74.) 1. The Chairman.] You are an Inspector of Mines?— Yes, for the Westland Mining District. 2. How many years' mining experience have you had?— About forty-four. 3. And as an Inspector?— Between fourteen and fifteen. [Exhibit No. 26, "List of Accidents," put in.]

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4. How long have you been in this district?■— Fourteen years last July. 5. Previous to that you had quartz-mining experience?— Yes. 6. Have you any opinion to offer on the question of ventilation? —I have always considered that the better the conditions were made for the miners the better would be the results we would get from their labours. 7. Have you any suggestion to offer in the direction of improving the present regulations? —- Only that I would like to see exhaust fans put into mines generally, when they get down to any depth, to assist the natural ventilation. 8. Have you any opinions to offer us to underground sanitation? —I believe in maintaining the sanitation underground by the pan system. 9. It has been suggested that a truck should be used in a dead-end, with a shovel and dust to be used? —I believe in using plent}' of dust. 10. The objection of the men to the pan system is that they do not care to follow one another on the seat?— They would have to do so on a truck. 11. No, they would use the shovel? —I do not believe in it. 1.2. You think the pan system would be better? —Yes, if proper cleanliness were maintained. 13. Have you any opinion to offer as to change and bath houses? —I think shower-baths would be most suitable. 14. How many men do you think one bath would be sufficient for?— Fifteen, because they are not all coming off at one time. 15. Have you any opinion to offer in regard to accidents? —No, 1 do not think so. The care taken since I have been an Inspector, and before when I was a mine-manager, was fairly good, and the accidents in this district are the lowest on record. 16. None of them were preventable?—No; they were accidents in the true sense of the term. Each of the two fatal accidents was fully inquired into. 17. Have you had any experience of what is known as miners' phthisis? —I have never met a single instance of what I consider miners' phthisis which could be attributed to working underground, and I have been going underground now for over forty years. 18. On the question of the investigation of accidents, what do you think the tribunal should consist of ? What is your opinion of a tribunal consisting of the Warden and two mine-managers, as at present?—l 'think myself that the miners should have a representative there as well as the mine-managers. 19. The Warden, one mine-manager, and a miners' representative?— Yes. 20. Mr. Reed.] It has been claimed that there are more accidents on the night shift than on the day shift in quartz-mines; it is said that men working at night-time are more liable to accident than if they were working on the day shift. What is your opinion of such a contention? —I cannot say that that is so from my experience. 21. I would like you to say whether this matter has been mentioned to you by me before — whether we have discussed it together ?—No. 22. Your opinion, based on your experience, is that there are not more accidents caused by working at night than on the day shift? —Yes. 23. And you do not consider the night shift more dangerous than the day shift?—No; though from my point of view I would do away with the night shift, as I am sure that men can do more work in the day than they probably will at night. lam positive of that from my own experience. But as for more accidents occurring to men on the night shift than on the day shift I fail to see that that is so. I have never noticed it, at any rate. 24. We found that the temperature in the Waihi Mine in the stopes was very high and humid : can you suggest to us any means by which that temperature could be reduced? Of course, a volume of air would do it, but the difficulty is to get that volume of air in? —The only way I can suggest it could be done is by having a powerful exhaust fan. 25. Do you think that men working on piecework or contract are more liable to accidents than men on day-wages? —No, I always preferred contract work when I was working. 26. Do you think that men on contract rush their work and put themselves in dangerous positions more so than men on day-wages? —No, Ido not think so at all. My experience has been that they work with more judgment when they are working for themselves. 27." In regard to winding-engine drivers, do you believe in a man who is practising for his certificate gaining his experience by winding men?—l believe in men who are practising to be engine-drivers working in company with a qualified man at first. 28. And would you allow that uncertificated man to practice on men? —Not until he had at least three or four months' winding experience*- He should have thorough confidence in himself. One man will gain that confidence much quicker than another. 29. Do you think practising on men unknown to them is fair to those men?—-Where you have an experienced man standing close to the lever it is all right. 30. Do you think an experienced man could prevent an accident always?— Well, invariably so. 31. Suppose the cage were 20 ft. from the bottom of the shaft, and the inexperienced man caused it to descend that 20 ft., do you think the experienced driver alongside would have time to recover the position in such a short time?— Not in 20ft.; but he is standing there with his eve on the indicator, and immediately it gets within a certain distance of the bottom he would at once take the lever himself He would not let it get within 20 ft. without doing so. 32. Are you aware that men were injured in the Grand Junction Mine the other day through falling 16 ft, ?—Yes. _ . . .'i-3 As regards blasting in quartz-mines, are you in favour of the appointment of shot-firers men to go round and do nothing but fire the shots? —No. 34 Why not? Well, if a man is competent to drill holes for his shots, he is competent to fire them.

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35. Do you think the men would appreciate the appointment of shot-firers? —No. 1 saw the practice in operation in Gippsland for over twelve months. 36. Did the miners like it? —No. 37. As regards the quantity of explosives that may be taken into a face at any one time, do you think the present provision in the Milling Act is satisfactory on that point?— Yes. 38. It says that there shall be only 1611). taken in: is that provision adequate/—ln one canister, yes. 39. And supposing they wanted more? —They would have two canisters. 40. About the testing of boilers, have you had boilers under your supervision tested? —I have. 41. What do you think of the hydraulic lest? -I do not like the hydraulic test except for a new boiler. Afterwards it should be the hammer test, wherever you can get into the boiler. 42. Do you think the hydraulic test hurts the boiler? —Yes. 43. Even if the boiler is sound? —You are likely to strain it. 44. A weak boiler; but what about a sound one? —You might not do any injury to it, but your sense of hearing should be good enough to test it. 45. You are in favour of it, then? —Not for an old boiler. 46. What about the speed of winding men in shafts? —It depends upon the depth of your shaft. If you are winding over 2,000 ft. the vibration of your wire rope would be greater than if you were winding only 500 ft. 47. Do you believe in penthouses in shafts where men are working under winding conditions? —Yes, I believe in having a penthouse, wherever you are sinking below a level. 48. Have you ever known Bickford's instantaneous fuse to be used in mines? —No. 49.. Have you any knowledge of its being used outside? —Only in large quarries. 50. Do you consider it safe? —No, not for general use. 51. In regard to the baths for the men, do you think it is a proper thing that the companies should provide shower-baths for the men? —Yes, I approve of their having warm shower-baths. 52. And would you approve of its being made compulsory for the men to use them? —Yes, both for the companies to provide them and for the men to use them. It is useless unless the men are made to use them. 53. Do you think it would be a fair thing to ask the men to contribute a small amount for the maintenance of these baths? —I do not think so. 54. You think the company should bear the expense entirely? —Yes. 55. As reirards winding, do you think it is advisable that in winding men there should always be two winding-engine drivers present in case one should be seined with a fit? —No. 56. Have you ever heard of a fatal accident caused by a man having a seizure of that sort? —No, 1 have never heard or read of one. 57. Would you be in favour of winding-engine drivers submitting themselves to periodical medical examinations as to their eyesight? —Yes, I have always advocated that. 58. Mr. Cochrane.] You have told us that you favour the installation of powerful exhaust fans in mines? —Yes. 59. In all large quartz-mines I —Yes. 60. There is a quantity standard of ventilation provided under the present Act—loo cubic feet of air per man per minute. Do you believe in that standard of quantity? —Yes. 61. Are you aware of a quality standard having been advocated by the Inspectors of Mines — not less than 20 per cent, of oxygen?— There was a standard advocated by them, but I do not remember what it was exactly. 62. Do you believe in a quality standard such as that? —Yes. 63. Then the question of temperature has been raised : do you believe in a temperature standard ?—Yes, 85° dry bulb, and 86° wet bulb. 64. And if it rose above that would you shorten the shift or withdraw the men altogether?— I would withdraw the men. 65. And what would you do then? —1 would withdraw the men until 1 could lower the temperature by some means —compressed air, probably. 66. If' you could not put in a sufficient quantity of fresh air to reduce the temperature would you withdraw the men or reduce the shift from eight to six hours? —I would withdraw the men if I could not alter the conditions, and keep them out of the place until I could do so. 1 would not put men there if 1. would not work there myself. 67. Have you seen any statistics as to accidents on night and day shifts? —No, I have certainly not noticed that there is any difference. 68. Are you in favour of the use of electric batteries for tiring a round of shots? —I am not. 69. Would you give your reasons? —Simply because if you fire with electricity the shots go instantaneously, and the charges do not do the work. 70. It is iiot on the grounds of the danger that you object to the electric firing?— No. 71. Do you consider it is safer than firing by fuse? —I would fire by fuse all the time if there was a proper distance for the men to get away. 72. Mr. Dowgray.] In reply to a question by Mr. Reed you said that if a man found that 161b. of explosives was not sufficient for his purpose he could take in another canister containing another 161b.. and if necessary a third? —Yes. 73. Is it not a breach of the law to take in more than 161b.?—No; the Act says that no canister shall contain more than 161b. _ .•.»■»' 74. In your opinion he can take in two, or three, or four canisters if he requires it;— Yes, if he were careful. , 75. I believe you stated also, in reply to Mr. Reed, that you believed in penthouses in shatts ( —I do.

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76. I notice in your list of accidents a reference to a fatality to Alfred Steadman in the Ross shaft. Was there a penthouse in that shaft?—No, they -were not sinking. He came out from a recess, and something fell on him from above. It was a chair that they were winding with before they got the cages in, and there was one of those chairs for guiding the bucket into position. It got hung up and then fell. 77. They were sinking the shaft, though?—No, they were only cleaning it out and repairing it. 78. Was it a cradle for winding in the shaft?— Yes, it got hung , up. 79. Was it made of iron or wood? —Wood, strapped together by iron bolts. 80. Is it customary to use these things in sinking shafts?— Yes, it is quite common. .81. Is that the first accident that has occurred through the use of such a thing?— Yes, the first I have ever known. ; 82. In reply to Air. Cochrane you stated that you had never studied the question by statistics aa to the number of accidents occurring on the night shift and day shift?—l have never done so. 83. You also said, in reply to Mr. Reed, that you thought the men were more careful when working under the contract system than when working on wages?—No, I did not say that. I said that it was to his own interests to be careful. 84. What do you mean —that it is to his own interests financially or as to safety? —Both financially and from the safety point of view. 85. In a speeding-up process is it possible for a man to provide a sufficient amount of timber, for instance, when he is looking after his own interests financially? —Yes. 86. There is no contracting on this field?— Yes, there is. Often low levels are driven by contract. 87. When you were speaking about the contract system were you referring to Waihi or this field ?—I was one of the original shareholders at Waihi, but I did not have any contract work done there. I had a lot of it done at Thames and Kuaotunu, also in Tasmania and Gippsland. I was contracting there for years, and always preferred it to wages work. 88. Mr. Parry .] As regards the night shift, do you think the abolition of the night shift would be conducive to better health? —I do not think it makes any difference. ... 89. Then you do not think it has a bad or detrimental effect upon the men?—No, it is all the same when you are underground. 90. Have you worked very much on the night shift?— Yes, for eighteen months right on end. 91. And you felt as good at the finish as when you started?— Yes. 92. Do you think it is likely that a man under the contract system, making barely a livingwage, would take as much care of himself as he would when working for a daily wage?— Yes. 93. You do not think it would have a tendency to make him careless so long as he made good money? —No. ... 94. Mr. Dowgray.] In reply to a question by Mr. Cochrane I believe you stated that you were in favour of a fixed standard temperature of 85° dry and 86° wet?— Yes.

Wellington (Parliament Buildings). —15th November, 1911. William' Frank Grace sworn and examined. (No. 75.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? —General manager of the Waihi Grand Junction Goldmining Company. 2. What experience have you had? —About twenty-eight years. 3. Primarily, the question to be considered by the Commission to-day is that of holing through :we will hear you on that subject. What have you to advocate in its favour? —I consider that holing through from one system of workings to another, in most instances, is advantageous. 4. That is, as a general principle? —Yes. 5. Have you gone into calculations regarding the probable effect in your own particular case? —We know that the holing through into the Extended has been very advantageous to both companies. 6. Have you calculated the probable effect of holing through into the W T aihi ?—Well, I do not see anything against it. It would certainly increase the ventilation in the eastern end of the Waihi Mine and our western end. 7. Have you considered any change it would make in the air-current? Would it make any change, or merely an increase in volume?—lt would augment the general volume in both mines. It might also make a difference in the uptakes and downtakes—probably it would —but that is a matter which would have to adjust itself. It is impossible to forecast that. It depends upon the lightness or heaviness of the air in the shafts. 8. Mr. Seed.] Would you not be satisfied to leave such an important matter as the compulsory connection of two mines to the Inspector of Mines ?■—l am afraid the question of connection ought not to be made compulsory. 9. Are you aware that in Queensland a section exists in tfie statute making the connection of mines compulsory if ordered by the Inspector of Mines? —Yes. 10. Have you anything to say against that?— Well, it has worked very well in Charters Towers. Ido not know the reason why they were not connected before. It is to a mine's advantage. Ido not think it was a question of objection by the Brilliant St. George. .": .11. But if, as you. say, it is impossible to forecast the benefit, why hot leave it in the hands of the responsible Inspector?—-I did not say it was impossible to forecast' trie'benefit. What I said was that it was impossible to forecast the direction of the air-current. ' : '•..

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12. In the event of fire would not the ventilating-drift carry the flame a great distance? — In a mine which was heavily timbered I do not think it would be advisable to hole through. 13. Well, suppose this drift required timbering?— The amount of timber used would not cause a serious fire. 14. Have you any opinion as to the direction of the current? —That is a matter of which we cannot speak with any degree of certainty. 15. The current would go in the direction of the greatest drag?— Certainly. 16. So that, in the event of your having a very powerful ventilator, it would go that way? —Yes. 17. And one of you would get the bad air from the other? —Yes; but if the volume of air going through the two mines combined is greater than the present volume you must get an advantage. 18. But if it left the Waihi to come to you it would be Waihi return air you would-be getting. You would not like to vitiate your intake?—lf I could get more air through, and was able to dilute it, I would not mind at all. We would both probably get more air. 19. But it is against good practice to vitiate the air? —Do not we do so at the present time? 20. It is a thing to avoid if possible ?—Certainly, but the great thing is to get a good volume of air. 21. Are you aware that the Waihi Mine has been on tire once or twice? —I believe they have had a fire in the timber. 22. In addition to tha air is there not a danger of poisonous gases coming into your mine?— The chance of fire is so small that it is negligible. 23. Supposing a door were put in in the connecting drive, and a tire occurred, would it not be impossible to get to that door? —It depends upon how the doors were put in. 24. We are also obtaining evidence in connection with electric winding : will you explain to the Commission how the recent accident happened at your mine when the cage fell? —I would hardly say the cage fell; the brakes were not applied quite soon enough. 25. How was that? Why were they not applied soon enough? —Well, your Inspector of Mines made inquiries into the circumstances, and doubtless has reported on the accident. 26. Is it a fact that the current was cut off suddenly and caused the cage to fall? —The current does not control the brakes. The current did cut out. 27. You have a magnetic brake? —Yes. 28. That magnetic brake would be thrown out of action? —-No, that brake is worked on another circuit. 29. Are you in favour of these automatic brakes? —Certainly. 30. Is it not a fact that automatic brakes take away from the responsibility of the driver? — 1 do not think so ; he never depends on it alone. 31. Are you aware thai the modern practice in Europe is against the use of automatic brakes? —A man is supposed to use his air-brake; we have three different air-supplies. 32. On the occasion of this accident the air-brake also gave out?— No. 33. It did not operate effectively?—lt did not absolutely stop the cage. 34. At what depth did the brake fail?—At about 17 ft. from the bottom. 35. About half a revolution of the drum? —Yes. 36. Is there no arrangement you could have, such as a lamp, to indicate when the current was cut off? —I do not think this accident was caused by the current being cut off. 37. Was it not extraordinary that the two brakes gave out at the same time? —The air-brake did not give out; the man did not put it on early enough. 38. You think, then, the accident was caused as the result of the man not applying the brake quickly enough?—l presume so. 39. The man was not quick enough to take advantage of his brakes before the cage struck the bottom?— Apparently he put on the brake too slowly. 40. I'o obviate such an accident what would you suggest?—l do not think 1 can suggest anything. It was one of those unforeseen things which cannot be provided for. 41. You are acquainted with the Rill method of stoping? —Yes. 42. Does that necessitate or imply down holes or wet holes?— Yes. 43. There would be less dust with down holes? —There should be. 44. Would there be less phthisis contracted with them?— Yes. 45. If the places were stepped in that way would that mean that falls would be less frequent? —I believe it is the best method which can be adopted; it is adopted everywhere where the ground is suitable. The stope is worked on a series of steps. 46. The distances which the levels are apart are determined by the inclination of the vein? — Certainly. 47. Would it be advisable or reasonable to have one fixed distance for levels regardless of the thickness of the vein, the nature of the walls, or the inclination of the vein? —Certainly not; you cannot fix it, for every part requires a different distance. 48. As regards the temperature in metal-mines, will you give us your opinion as to how the temperature in stopes can be reduced to a reasonable degree?—By sufficient winzing to increase the volume of air; but you will never get the temperature low in a place like Waihi, where the climate is damp. 49. If you make winzes larger will it not increase ventilation?— Yes, if you make a winze big enough you make it an opencut. 50. By sending through a greater volume of air would it not create more dust?—l do not think it would dry the workings, but the greater the velocity of air the more dust is held in suspension

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51. What is your opinion as to running brattice down a wide stope so as to carry your cool air round the face and back down another winze? —I am afraid you would not be able to keep it there. 52. If you could would you recommend it as a good scheme?—lt might be worth trying. I. have never tried it in our mine. 53. I do not mean in a winze, but in a stope?—l am afraid it could not be worked. 54. Are you in favour of more doors in levels? —I think we do the best we can. We know the men work better if they get good air. 55. Would you recommend a fixed standard of temperature for metal-mines? —No. 56. Why not?— How can you fix it? You must take the climatic conditions into consideration. I have seen it 98° in Western Australia, and I would sooner work in that temperature there than in 86° here. 57. I was referring to Waihi : what would you regard as a temperature at which men should cease work there?— You cannot fix it. 58. Would you allow men to go on working in any temperature?—No, sometimes you would have to stop' work. 59. Would you be in favour of reducing the hours according to the wet-bulb temperature? — No, I think the men accommodate themselves to the temperature. 60. When they are working on day-labour perhaps, but how can they do so when contracting? —They know the nature of the ground, and allow for that by asking for a higher price. 61. But when tendering a man may allow for a certain temperature, but in between times it might rise?- —Not as a rule ; the temperature does not go 'up quickly. 62. Would you be in favour of a regulation winding-speed when the cage is approaching the surface?— There ought to be a reduced speed for winding, as it is bad for the engine to start and stop quickly. 63. As to the compulsory lighting of travelling-roads, how many miles of travelling-roads have you in your mine?—l could not tell you, but it runs into a good many. 64. Would it be ten miles? —No, I do not think so. 65. Would it be five miles?— Yes, I think so. 66. To light that distance by fixed electric light would entail an expensive electric-lighting equipment, would it not? —I would not put in electric light; think of the wiring which would have to be clone. It would be better to have candles or lamps. 67. Suppose the law required the lighting of your roads would it be safe to hang candles up in them ?—No. 68. Would you regard it as an absurd requirement? —Yes. 69. Would kerosene-lamps be dangerous? —Yes, they would be dangerous for fire. 70. Would you suspend candles along the roads?—l would not like to do so. 71. Then electric light is the only alternative? —Well, even that is dangerous, to have it all over the place; there is always the chance of short-circuiting. 72. What would be the capital cost of lighting five miles of travelling-roads?— About as much as lighting up a small town. 73. Would it prevent accidents to any extent? —I should not think so. .74. Would it be more likely to cause accidents? —I should not like to have wires all over the place. 75. Did you ever hear of such a proposal as the lighting of travelling-roads in any country? —No. 76. In regard to bath-houses, you have warm showers at your mine?— Yes. 77. Are they satisfactory?—We have had no complaints. 78. About what proportion of the men use them? —Pretty well all the men. 79. Are they kept clean? —No, the men are careless and leave the water running; though, generally speaking, I think the baths are all right. 80. Do you third'; it would be well if the men had to contribute, say, half the cost, and had a say in the management of the baths? Would they be more likely to take an interest in thefri and keep them cleaner? —I do not think so. I may say that it is only one or two men who misuse them. 81. Would you think it wise for the men to have a say in the management of these bathhouses? —No. 82. And you would not advise that they should contribute half the cost? —No, because then they would want to have <i say in their management. B.!. Mr. Molineauw.] Could you suggest any'amendment with regard to electric traction underground?— The height above the rails for the bare wire seems too great. It is almost, impossible in the ordinary metalliferous mine to drive high enough. 84. Could you reduce the height of the wires with safety?— Yes. 85. Do you consider the present regulation prohibitive?— Yes, it has absolutely prohibited us from using a locomotive underground, because the height was too great between the rail and the wire. 86. Then the regulations state that the road which is used for electric traction shall not be. used as a travelling-road?— Modified, T believe, they do make that provision; I have not the Act here. That was the reason I could not put in a locomotive. I dropped the idea on that account. 87. With regard to connecting the Grand Junction with the AVaihi, can you tell me what would be the distance between the two drives horizontally?—lt would have to be an inclined connection —say, between 75 ft. and 100 ft. 88. Who do you consider should pay the cost of tins connection? —The cost should be mutually arranged if it is going to be of mutual advantage,

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89. Referring again to the ventilation, I understood you to say that you consider a fixed standard is not practicable : do you consider that a quality standard might be fixed with advantage I —Well, the volume is the main thing, I consider, and that, of course, practically means quality. Of course, most Mining Acts fix a volume. 90. The Chairman. .] Do you believe in a fixed volume? —1 believe it is a dead-letter, because the volume is generally above what is fixed. 91. How much air do you think a man is really able to use?— About 22 ft. a minute, I think it is. 92. In what condition would be leave the remainder? —It would be vitiated. 93. But to what extent? —Very nearly one-quarter of the total oxygen would be absorbed. 94. Mr. Molineaux.] With regard to rises, do you consider it is practicable to limit the height of rises? —Sometimes it is more advantageous to rise than to sink. 95. May I take it that you do not consider it is practicable to limit the height of rises? — Certainly not. 96. Do you think a rise can be ventilated efficiently without being a three-compartment box rise? —Yes. 97. As to ventilating fans, do you think it necessary to keep a fan going night and day seven days a week?— No. 98. The Chairman.'] Under no conditions?— Yes, if you had a gassy mine, of course, it would be advantageous. 99. But supposing your temperature were fairly high? —1 do not think the air is cooled bycirculating, but where you get the air vitiated the fan would improve it in the off-times. You must give the fan some chance to be overhauled. 100. Mr. Molineaux.] With regard to stopes, do you consider it is practicable to limit the height of stopes?—Well, if the ground breaks away up above the limit, what are you going to do —shut up the mine? It depends upon the ground. 101. Do you think it would be a great disadvantage if stopes were limited to, say, 10 ft. from the filling?—lt is going to make mining very difficult and expensive, and I think the regulation would never be observed. 102. But you will admit that a high stope is a source of danger?— Yes, if it is too high and cannot be sounded. 103. Then you would limit it? —Yes, the management would naturally do so themselves. 104. You consider it would be better left to the management entirely? —Yes. 105. What do you consider would be the effect of a standard height being fixed for stopes?— It would make mining almost an impossibility. 106. Oα account of the cost?— Yes. 107. Do you consider firing by electricity to be safer than firing by ordinary fuse?—ln certain places, yes —in wet shafts and winzes, for instance. 108. What is your opinion of the proposal to limit firing by fuse to a certain number of holes? —I do not think it is going to work very well, because I do not like the idea of charging all the holes and then firing only some of them. Six holes, as in the Act, is a very small number to be fired simultaneously. 109. Do you consider more could be fired without danger?—l think so, though it depends on the man's capabilities. 110. What do you consider safe for a man of average ability under average conditions with fuse? —I should say ten. 111. And you think that a greater number than that could be fired more safely with electricity?— Yes, I think so, on an average. 112. What tamping do you consider is most satisfactory?—No organic substance should be used. Ido not advise the use of rags. 113. Would you prohibit the use of rags?— Yes. Damp clay is all right, and sand is all right. 114. Would not sand be likely to cause dust? —No. 115. Damp sand or dry?— Damp. 116. Do you consider water by itself efficient? —Yes, as efficient as anything solid. 117. What do you consider is the best procedure to take for dealing with misfire holes?— Bulling the holes out. 118. Supposing they are tamped with clay?—l would not draw the charge. 119. Do you think it is safer to bore another hole in the vicinity or to draw a portion of the tamping and recharge? —If you can draw the fuse it is safer. 120. In straight drives do you consider that manholes are necessary?— No. 121. But in straight drives where firing is going on in the face? —Well, we have worked up to 800 ft., and in a tunnel much longer than that, and there has been no danger. 122. The Chairman.] Was there any covering at all- —timber?—No. 123. Mr. Molineaux,.] Do you not consider that the provision of a manhole, say, every 100 ft. would be a safeguard? —No, T do not think it is necessary. A man should allow plenty of fuse and plenty of time. 124. The Chairman.] What is the longest distance you have known stone to carry?—lt is a difficult thing to say. Possibly some hundreds of feet for small stones. 125. Mr. Molineaux.] Referring again to winding, could you recommend any appliance which would tend to reduce the liability to accidents to men in the lowering cage at the time of an overwind?-—Well, the cage would come down on the catches if they were out. I do not think you could improve the present arrangement. With our electric engine, before the top cage gets up, the magnetic brake is on. 126. Since you cannot put that appliance on a steam-engine can you suggest any appliance to lessen the chance of accident by preventing the descending cage from striking heavily on the

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catches at the bottom of the shaft? —Except that catch to prevent an overwind, which stops both drums, I do not see how you could arrange anything of that sort. 127. Mr. Cochrane. J With regard to connecting shafts for ventilating purposes, you have found considerable improvement from connecting with another mine?— Yes. 128. Do you find great improvement?— Yes. 129. Are you aware that the same has resulted in Victoria from connecting shafts?— Well, I presume it has; I know it has in Queensland and Western Australia. 130. Are you aware that on connecting up a third shaft the air has often baffled, and the ventilation has been destroyed ?— -Well, it may be disturbed temporarily, but I do not know that it has been finally disadvantageous. . 131. Before you had the fan you had about 38,000 ft. of air circulating?—l think it was more than that; I. could not give you the figures now. 132. Was the result of installing the fan a very small increase in the volume in that particular shaft? —It increased the volume in that particular shaft very largely. 133. Even more than 40,000 ft, to 47,000 ft! I— lt doubled it, I think. 134:. We had the Queensland Act quoted : I shall now quote the Victorian Act. Would you be in favour of this: " All drives by which any two or more mines are connected shall, if considered necessary by an Inspector of Mines, be kept open for ventilation and for escape"?—lt is the same provision as is in the Queensland Act. Yes, I think so. 135. Would you favour this: " But the Chief Mining Inspector may order any connection between mines to be closed where he considers that the ventilating conditions will be thereby improved"?—l think the management should be left to deal with that, because it is for them to decide. They are watching the ventilation of their own mines. 136. But it might be good for one and bad for another. The Inspector would be an impartial judge. Would you favour that clause?— Yes, possibly it might be satisfactory, though it leaves a great onus on the Inspector. 137. " Upon the order of an Inspector of Mines, made with the concurrence in writing of the Chief Mining Inspector, owners shall construct such connecting-drives where the works are not more than 300 ft. apart for ventilation and escape at their joint expense." Would you favour that? —I would sooner have it left to the mine-managers first. 138. And, failing their agreement, to the Inspector of Mines or Chief Inspector?—l suppose it would come to that, but it must go to an impartial body. It is a very difficult thing to decide. 139. I think you said, if the volume is greater there must be an improvement in the ventilation? —Y r es, that is what 1 contend. 140. But if the smoke from two or three mines were turned into another would that not be detrimental? —I think you would find that the increased volume would make it mutually advantageous even then. 1.41. In regard to the shaft accident at the Junction Mine, would it not be better if the enginedriver depended upon the ordinary brake? —Well, the air-brake is the ordinary brake. 142. Y r ou would have the other brake as well?—lf the engine is suitable for the appliance, and an electric engine is suitable. The brake is worked on the same principle as the Westinghouse brake. 143. Then you told us that 22 ft. of air per minute was the minimum to support life?—-Yes, I think that is so. :. 144. Well, what margin above the bare amount necessary would you allow] —Well, it is fixed by law in most countries at 100 ft. 145. Do you think that is too great?—No, 1 think that allows a fair margin. 146. And you do not approve of a fan running constantly? —No. 147. What exemptions would you recommend'! —I. do not think there is any advantage gained by running it on Sundays. There would be no time for overhaul. 148. Would you exempt any other time? —It is no use running a fan after six or seven hours after the men are out of the mine. 149. Would you recommend running it for some time before the men enter the mine?—lt depends upon the* conditions of the mine. If it is a gaseous mine you must run it always. If there is only carbonic-acid gas from the men breathing there is no need to run the fan for long after the men leave work or before they start. 150. How long would you run if?—lf your fan is taking up only a very small volume of air it is not'necessary°to run it very long. If the volume of air running by fan is only a small proportion of the air passing through the mine, and there were no natural gases emitted from it, it would be unnecessary to run the fan after men left work, and the Sunday's spell would practically allow time to fill tI:J mine with fresh air by natural ventilation. 151. Then, as to the number of holes to be fired by fuse, I think you said up to ten?— Yes, as an average. ... 152. Do you often fire over ten at once? —I cannot say exactly what the practice is in our mine, but I know more are often fired in tunnels. 153. It is not very frequently that you fire more than ten, at any rate?— No. ] 54.' In straight drives have you ever seen stones projected more than 200 ft. ?—Not large stones, but small ones. 155. How much over 200 ft, I—l1 —I could not say exactly, but I have known stones to come back that distance in a very hard porphyritic rock. 156 Are not the conditions in collieries and metal-mmes very different as regards the necessity for running fans on Sundays?—l consider the conditions are very different. 157 As to firedamp?— Yes; then you must run your fan on Sundays.

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158. The Chairman.] Then, as to the matter of connection, what do you propose? 1 understand you to say that it would be difficult to make it compulsory to connect. And it is compulsory connection you want —that is, the right to compel companies to connect?— Yes, in a good many instances, but not absolutely. For instance, in a mine where there is very heavy timber, like the Broken Hill mines, it might not be advisable. 159. You are asking this Commission to make a recommendation as to the right to compel underground connection : well, 1 take it that is compulsory connection?— Well, in our case I think it would be advantageous, but you could not make it binding on all mines. 160. But we cannot make it binding only as between the Waihi Company and yourself?— Well, you would have to have some arbiter- —either the Minister of Mines or the Inspector of Mines. It is a very difficult thing to do, I admit. Certainly in Queensland it was made compulsory, and it proved very advantageous. 161. What limit would you put to this compulsion to connect: is it to be limited to two or three mines? Are you not likely to set up complications? —No, 1 do not think so. You could take two or three mines, or three or four ; it depends upon the connections. 162. Who is to deal with that? —It is a difficult thing to decide. 163. Supposing you had a number of mines connected, and you found there was difficulty about the air-current, who is to decide what alteration is to be made? In a statutory provision you must make it general. You want some machinery in the Act to control the connection of these mines and to regulate the working of them. What proposal, could you make which would be satisfactory ? —I suppose eventually it would have to be submitted to some absolutely independent expert. It would be a matter of the amount of advantage or disadvantage. 164. Supposing for each district you could get a Board set up, consisting, say, of the minemanagers of each of the important mines, with some other representative, and the Inspector of Mines; divide the country into districts —ventilation districts—and Boards similar to Drainage Boards, to draw up rules for the ventilation of the mines in the district, such rules to be agreed to and have the force of regulations : do you think that would meet the case ?—lt is very difficult to make a scheme like that work. 165. But it is very difficult to make it statutory altogether? —Yes, it is very difficult, 1 admit. 166.. Mr. Vowgray.] Did I understand you to say that the advantage of holing through, as a general principle, lay in the greater volume of air obtained? —Yes. 167. The more openings a mine has to the surface the better the ventilation will be?—As a rule, yes. 168. And the strata of the Waihi district is getting hotter as you go down?—l would not say that—not more than the ordinary increase. I think our No. 5 level is cooler than No. 4. 169. The rock-temperature there is higher than at Reefton? —The rock-temperature is a high one, 1 admit. 170. You are against the Inspector of Mines enforcing connection? —1 am not in favour of leaving it entirely to the Inspector of Mines. 171. Would you be in favour of a Board consisting of the Inspector of Mines, the Warden, and the workmen's inspector deciding it?—No; I think the management should have a say in the matter. 172. In reply to Mr. Molineaux you said that a volume of air always signified quality? — It affects the quality, of course. 1 was sneaking of air going into a mine. 173. Is it cheaper to rise than to sink winzes? —It depends upon the ground. If you have tight, wet ground and have to put a pump down it is more expensive to winze than to rise. 174. Apart from the wet ground you have to pull up the material? —Yes. 175. And that is one of the reasons why you advocate rising before winzing?—No, it is easier eventually to rise than to winze. 176. Have you any three-compartment rises in your mine?— Yes, all our rises are box rises. 177. Do you consider that a good system 1- -Yes, it is the best, I think. 178. The Chairman.] Do you"think it advisable that it should be made compulsory that they should be all on that system? —No, certainly not; it depends on the working-conditions of the mine. . ■ 179. Mr. Vowgray.] What is the reason why you use box rises? —Because we find it advantageous in that particular mine; but if the conditions changed, and the reefs were flatter, we should not want to use that system. 180. In connection with the fan, one of the reasons you advanced for the fan not being run continually was that you would have no time for overhaul? —Partly. 181. But if the mine is a hot mine would the fan not have a tendency to cool it down?— Not always; new workings are always hotter than others. 182. Does it not only cool the outer crust of the level? —Yes. 183. In regard to making manholes in long straight drives, would it not be a costly item? —Yes, a waste of money, in my opinion. 184. In regard to fixing a standard temperature, one of the reasons you advanced against that was the difference in climatic conditions? —Yes. 185. Are you positive that the temperature outside a mine has something to do with the temperature in the mine? —Certainly. 186. And you said you had five miles of travelling-roads in your mine? —I said five miles, roughly—it would be about five miles. 187. Do you call trucking-roads travelling-roads? —If you mean roads for men to walk in we have more than that. _ . 188. How many shots is it possible to fire by electricity?—As many as you like if you have the battery and the caps to suit.

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189. How many have you seen connected up?— Actually, I do not know; but I have seen some submarine explosions, and there they have thousands. I believe our electric firers are made for from twenty to forty. There are two sorts made by the Nobel people. 190. Do you consider there is a limit to the volume of air passing through a given entry?— It depends upon the pressure. 191. In connection with the standard temperature, have you seen the last report on the goldfields of New Zealand? —I do not think I have perused it. 192. There the Inspecting Engineer recommends a standard temperature?— Does lie? [Witness perused paragraph in report referred to.] The recommendation of the Inspecting Engineer is all'right. 193! But his recommendation is for a standard temperature ! —Under certain conditions. 194:. Mr. Parry.] Have you read this report from Victoria on miners' phthisis and atmospheric conditions. [Report handed to and perused by witness.] What is your opinion of that? ■ —In that particular instance there is no difference. 195. You consider that is » fair test ? —Certainly; but I do not know who were the people who made it. 196. The atmosphere in that instance had no influence on the temperature below? — Apparently. 197. In regard to ventilation and the question of connecting those two mines, it is your opinion that the connecting of those two mines would be advantageous to both? —Yes, I think so. 198. Do you think there is any, man in New Zealand, either practical or theoretical, who could' give an opinion with certainty as to what the actual effect would be on both mines, and thy ultimate advantage?— Well, I do not suppose any man could absolutely swear to it. 199. But do you think any man could give an absolute opinion before the mines were connected? —Xo, I do not think so. 200. It would only be a speculative opinion?— Yes. 201. And it would be a good idea to try the connection in order to see the result?— Certainly. 202. Mr. Reed put it to you.that the Rill system is in the interests of health and would minimize the dust, and you said"Yes, . —Yes, because you get more down holes with the Bill system than in any other way. 203. That is an important factor in minimizing miners' phthisis?— Yes. It is always important to look after the men's health. 20-t. Well, then the boring of 'uppers" has a bad effect upon men? —Yes, they are more dusty. 205. Do you approve of the use of poppers?—l approve of the least exposure to dust. 20G. And yet poppers will not bore wet "uppers"?— Certainly; the men can have other drills—rock-drills. 207. Do you think the box system of raising is safer and healthier to work in than the system you have at present?—lt depends upon the mine, the flatness of the reef, and so on. 208. Do you think it is easier to ventilate a rise witli the box system?--! think the air-drill supplies a large amount of air in the rise. . 209. Mr. Cochrane asked if you considered that the air may be baffled by the connecting of three shafts, and then he used as an answer a statement that the drives might not be of sufficient capacity to carry the ventilation? —My opinion was that , they would adjust themselves to the new conditions. 210. Mr. Reed.] As regards these slope drills or poppers, what do you suggest with their use as an efficient method of allaying the dust?— The spray is the best thing. 211. Can they be worked with a spray?— Yes, I think so. 2.12. How should the spray be operated ? —Across the neck of the hole. 213. Are the men compelled by you to use these stope drills?— No. 214. Do you prefer the poppers? —Yes. 215. Are you aware that the popper is employed on the great goldfields of the world? —Yes, everywhere, I believe. 216. Have you heard of an)' serious complaints against the, use of these stope drills or poppers as to the dust nuisance?— Only here. 217. Have you heard of their being condemned in the Transvaal or in Western Australia? —-No. 218. You have had an extensive experience in the Transvaal and in Western Australia?— Not in the Transvaal, but in Western Australia. 2.19. As regards penthouses, when would you use them in shafts? —In a shaft that is an actual shaft being sunk whilst the upper levels are working. 220. Did you ever hear of the compulsory use of penthouses other than when work was being carried out in upper levels?— No. 221. Would you regard such a proposal as impracticable?—l do not know how you could put them in to be of use. 222. Mr. Parry.] You have never seen penthouses enforced by an Inspector of Mines above the men working in a shaft?— Never in shaft-sinking pure and simple when the upper levels were not being worked simultaneously. 22.'?. Have you had any experience in New .South Wales? —No. 224. Did it ever occur to you that there is no get-away for the men in the event of steel falling out? —But you could not haul above a penthouse. How are you going to get the stuff up? 225. In the other compartment? —Where are you going to put the penthouse? 226. Keep on moving down and carry the penthouse with you?—l have never heard of such a thing. ■ •

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227. What chance would the men have to get away otherwise?—No chance. 228. And would the penthouse not be an advantage? —1 do not see how you are going to fix it. 229. Not with stones? —You would be putting in penthouses all the time and not sinking the shaft. 230. The Chairman.] According to your suggestion where do you put the penthouse?— Below the lowest working level. 231. Even supposing you were putting down a three-compartment shaft could you not put the penthouse in one of the compartments?—lt would not be any good unless it is kept right down on the bottom, and it would take longer to put it in than to sink the shafi 232. How much of your mine or travelling-ways is wired for electric light?—l do not think we have any of it, because where we have the current with a fan on it it is not wired for lighting purposes. You cannot light with electricity near your working-faces. 233. Have }'ou had any trouble or complaints from your engine-drivers as to the new code of signals? —No. As a matter of fact it does not affect us, except as to No. 6 level. 234. Have you anything to say as to gates or bars on cages? —I am against them absolutely. I have seen more accidents with them than without them. 235. The regulation requires gates? —Yes, but they have not told us what sort of gates they want us to put in. It is always safest to let the men go up and down without gates. There is another question about the speed of winding. We have an engine able to wind 2,500 ft. a minute, but the regulation requires us to keep it down to 500 ft. whilst hauling men. That is a great restriction. 236. What would you suggest? —1 should say it should be fixed at half the engine's windingspeed whilst winding men. That would be a very safe rule. 237. And how would you define the winding-speed of an engine : would you classify the engines?— Yes, classify them according to their winding-speeds, and halve them for winding men. I say the 500 ft. regulation is all right for small engines, but the restriction to half-speed would be perfectly safe. Hubert Percy Baiihy sworn and examined. (No. 76.) 1. The Chairman.] You are the superintendent of the Waihi Gold-mining Company?— Yes. 2. How many years' experience have you had?— Twenty-two years in mining work, and some time before that in mechanical engineering. 3. Will you please tell the Commission what you wish to say in regard to the question of holing through ?—When this matte] , first came up I drafted out some ideas and consulted our mine-managers. We admit that there might be cases where it would be advisable to hole through, but I do not think it is advisable to hole through from the Waihi Mine to the Grand Junction. 4. You do not think it is possible to make it compulsory by statute?— No. 5. How would you regulate it? —One objection 1 have to connect with another mine is on account of the danger from fire, which also includes the danger from smoke. It is not the actual flame which might be dangerous. 6. You mean the smoke from fire, not that from blasting?— Yes 7. Could not that be overcome by having iron doors ?—No, even on a ship where they are close to the doors it often occurs that they are left open in a'li emergency. I reckon that connection is too dangerous, even with a door , ; Then, as to the question of the air, the only object of one mine in connection with another is either to get rid of their foul air or to get fresh air. 8. It is not to benefit the other mine? — Well, that is my opinion. In our case we object to take foul air or to give fresh air. . . 9. The objection to take foul air is a more valid one than that to give fresh air : if you could be compensated for your fresh air what would you say to it?—We require for our own mine all the fresh air we can draw down. , 10. But the suggestion is that by holing through you would draw down more?—l do not think air circulated through our mine would be of any advantage to another mine. With natural ventilation I think our mine would be an upcast; 1 cannot say it will be, but it is reasonably probable. Considering the long distance we are from the Junction downcast it would not be satisfactoiy. 11. Supposing the natural ventilation was your way, and the fan was running the other way, would not that tend to minimize the advantage?—We admit it is quite possible that they could draw aii , from our mine, but that would be to our detriment. I think that both mines are too big to rely on each other. There are certain cases where small mines might gain an advantage by connecting, but our mine is as big as a dozen ordinary mines. We have in our mine a dozen ordinary mines connected, and why should you connect more? 12. How many mines could be advantageously connected? —There is no saying. 13. And you might connect three and baffle the circulation?—lt depends upon the arrangement of doors. 14. As to this ward system of signalling, have you found any difficulty with it?—l have not heard of any. 15. Mr. Reed.] You stated that your mines amount to many mines : how many shafts have you? —Six shafts, as a matter of fact, but they are not all in commission. 1(5. Your system is natural ventilation? — Barring forced ventilation in one or two headings. 17. Although a number of shafts may be of benefit with natural ventilation, are you aware that with mechanical ventilation a number of shafts is an advantage?—l do not know that it is so. 18. Would you be inclined to leave such an important matter as this to the Minister or Inspector of Mines? —No, T would not agree to anything but an open Court deciding it. T would

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be content for the Warden to deal with it. We think that the Inspector of Mines would consider it his duty to interfere with a few men for the benefit of many. 19. Have you heard of any such suggestion?—Xo; but he would probably look at it in that way. 20. You do not mean to infer that the Inspector would harass the mining industry? —No; but it would be only natural for him to say that the larger number of men should get the good air. 21. And so 3'ou would be in favour of this matter being determined by the Warden? —Yes, I favour it being dealt with by the open Court, though 1 think certain restrictions ought to be placed upon what even the Warden could do. 1 do not think the Warden should be given the power to order the connection in case of fire. I drafted certain provisions which would not allow the Warden too much freedom. I would insert a protection clause for the objector. 22. As to stoping on the Rill principle, do you use that system?—l would not like to give expert evidence on that point. 23. Have you found it dangerous?—No, we are adopting it a little more lately. 1 am not going to give evidence on that subject. 24. As regards lighting, Mr. Gilmour stated that he believed there was forty miles of crosscuts and levels in your mine and twenty miles open : do you think that would be exaggerated?— I should think there would be thirty miles open, but it is rather a lot to say offhand. I should say it is more than twenty, but whether it is thirty or forty I could not say. Twenty miles would certainly not be an exaggeration. 25. Twenty miles of travelling-roads open? —Yes. 26. Supposing that the law compelled that the travelling-roads in a mine should be permanently lighted, would you adopt lamps, kerosene, candles, or electricity? —I do not like grease lights of any sort. 27. If that Became law would the lighting be likely to cause danger? —The idea is new to me. A definition of lighting is difficult to give, tf you have no standard of illumination you would not see a truck coming. 28. Do you think the danger from permanent lighting would be greater than that under the present system? —Speaking on the moment, as I understand the matter, I think so. 29. Have you ever heard of such a proposal before in connection with travelling-roads in metal-mines? —No. ■50. To light your travelling-roads in this manner would entail an enormous expenditure in electric plant?— Yes, it would be the expense of getting the wires in and maintaining them. We have a certain amount already wired, but the wires are knocked about a great deal. We have some thousands of feet lit with electric lights. 31. If such a scheme meant the safety of the employees would it not have been adopted long ago?—l do not think it would add to the safety of the employees; it might add to the convenience of working. 32. In regard to the gates to the cages, have you anything to suggest in the direction of amending the new regulations? —I have given a good deal of thought to the matter, and conferred with the engineers at the mine. We have had many conferences on the subject, and the safest tiling we have been able to hit upon is a bar hung at the centre, which drops down to about 3 ft. 6 in. or 4 ft. from the bottom of the cage. 33. Would you recommend that the words "or approved barrier " be inserted in the regulation after the word " gate "1 —Yes, it sounds right. I think that would be satisfactory. 34. Is there any other section in that regulation which you would like to speak about? —Yes, as to the rate of lowering men. Ido not think you should have a fixed speed. I know of engines which it would not be safe to run at 500 ft. per minute; on the other hand, I have known many which it would have been perfectly safe to run at 1,250 ft. It should not be more than half the ordinary winding-speed. 35. Who decides the winding-speed?— The engine decides that. 36. The Chairman.] There has been a suggestion that a Board be formed, consisting of the mine-manager, the workmen's inspector, and the Inspector of Mines, to draw up rules and regulations for the working of each particular mine according to local conditions, such rules to be notified and posted up, and that a given time be allowed for interested persons to object to any or all of them; if passed they would become the working rules of that particular mine. Such rules would include the speed of winding, the method of ventilation, the height of stopes, and a number of other matters. Do you think that would be a workable scheme? —1 am afraid it would lead to a perpetual state of dispute and trouble. The Mining Regulations are generally satisfactory; it is only in one or two small details that objection is taken to them. 37. There are a number of things which could be dealt with in the manner suggested, such as box rises? —1 think that matter comes under the control of the Inspector of Mines; he could settle that. 1 think the general Mining Act is good, though I do consider that these last regulations have not been very well considered. 38. Mr. You gave two reasons for connecting mines—to get fresh air and to get rid of foul air. That may be for your two .mines, but take another district :do you not think it would be advisable to allow authority to the Inspector of Mines to order connections for the safe escape of men and to provide a second outlet? —I think it should come before the Warden; then the Inspector of Mines could be heard, and also the objector. 39. Then, in the case of mines that are connected, would you be favourable to the Inspector, with the approval in writing of the Chief Inspector, having power to close such connection? —No, 1 do not like the idea that the Inspector should be able to do such things as that. Of course, he would do what he thought was best, but 1 consider it would be better for the Court to deal with such matters.

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40. Then, would you approve of power being given to the Court to close openings between mines if it were considered beneficial to do so?— Yes. 1 can quite understand a case where a mine with a single opening should be connected with another mine'with a single opening for safety, but closed for ventilation. 41. Mr. Parry. ,] In regard to the speed-limit for winding, do you not think it advisable to have some restriction upon the speed?—l think the restriction suggested would meet the case— that is, half the ordinary winding-speed. 42. Is it not a fact that some men can stand being raised quicker than others? —Yes, that must be so. The ordinary lift in a warehouse affects some people. 43. Is it not also a fact that a man fainted in No. 2 cage at your mine a few days ago?— Yes, but I think lie was ill underground; he had been complaining underground. 44. In regard to the gates I know that you have had some conferences on the subject : have you had gates on any of your cages? —I have never had a gate on them. We cannot design a satisfactory gate. 45. Do you not think a gate on a frame could be designed so as to go up over the cage?— You would find trouble with anything which slides up; it would be in the nature of a portcullis, and there is the danger that it may drop when you do not want it to do so. It might knock a man off the cage and down the shaft. The safest thing for the purpose is the bar. 46. But the bar does not do away with the chance of accident to a man fainting?— Well, it did stop the last man "who fainted in the cage. The other men grabbed him and held him up by the bar, Ido not think we can make provision for every man who faints. 47. Mr. Beed.] Are you aware of any country in the world whfeh has insisted upon gates being provided on cages? —No. ELECTRICAL APPLIANCES AND EXPLOSIVES IN MINES. Geaottt (Mabtin's Hall). —9th October, 1911. Frederick Hubert Chamberlain sworn and examined. (No. 1.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—l am an electrical engineer, and managing engineer of the Westport-Stockton Coal Company. 2. You are aware of the circumstances surrounding the accident at Waihi, as far as we know them? —Yes. 3. Can you give us any suggestion that would tend to prevent the recurrence of such an accident as that? —From the description of the accident I should say that it would be much safer, where electrical power is used for driving the gear, that the alternative brake-power be used under all conditions—that is, in these cases of winding-engines driven by electrical power and with an airbrake attachment, if the alternative brake-power (in these cases the air-brake) were used under regular conditions. In this case the increased speed of the drum was noticeable, and the enginedriver would have at once applied his air-brake. I take it that a certain time was lost when.the driver was endeavouring to put on the electric power when it was off. I think they use electric power to reduce the speed of the cages, but I think in addition that it should be compulsory for them to have a tell-tale lamp installed. The driver naturally looks at the dial to see the position of his cage, and while he is looking at it several seconds would elapse while the current was of)'. If you had a tell-tale lamp over the top of the dial which was lit by the current supplying the motor he would be able to at once apply his air-brake. That is a very simple precaution. 4. This is a copy of the report by the Inspector of Mines on the accident, in which he states the precautions proposed to be taken: is that in accordance with your views? —Yes, it says that it is intended to arrange a device to cause the air-brake to act automatically in conjunction with the automatic brake in the event of a sudden cut-off of the electric power. I think that is what should be done. 5. And made compulsory in all cases? —Yes, where men are being raised or lowered. It is no hardship; but I still think you should insist upon the alternative power ..being used as the working-power. I think two things are essential: firstly, that the alternative power should be used under working conditions; and, secondly, in addition to that, a tell-tale lamp should be placed so that the operator on looking at the dial would at once see that his power was off. He would then not even have to look at the drum to see" that his cage had got away. 6. Mr. Reed.] Can you suggest an efficient automatic brake other than the magnetic brake? A very simple device could be arranged : you could have a magnetic trip which would at once apply the air-brake or other brake. 7. Something which would not leave it to the engineman at all?— Yes. 8. Would you be in favour of a broadly drawn regulation to that effect being incorporated in the Mining Regulations?- -Yes, it should state that the driver operating an electrically driven cage in which human life is being transported should operate the alternative brake-power on that cage, because the best of electrical appliances get out of order at times. Then he is always working his emergency brake. 9. In connection with another matter —perhaps you are aware that in Great Britain it is the law that mining electricians must be qualified by examination. Would you,be in favour of such a thing in this Dominion?— Yes, I think a mining electrician should be a certificated man. I cannot see any objection to that. Of course, you have the same thing in that line as you meet with in other' lines. There are good practical men who are better qualified than men with a

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theoretical knowledge. I think that the examination should be such that a man with practical experience should be able to gain a certificate. I do not think that you should have a technical examination which would bar a good average everyday man. 10. In regard to voltages, what is the highest voltage you have in the mine? — 250; but I do not agree that that should be the highest. 11. What current would you admit into a mine? —I think 500 volts should be allowed in any mine where gas is not recognized. 1 cannot see any reason why 500 volts should not be allowed in a mine when it is allowed in every one of your cities. I chink, there should be restrictions in regard to the wires being exposed, so that a man with, say, a crowbar should not get against it. They could be raised on boards and brackets, 12. As regards the voltage permitted in a mine, are you aware that in Great Britain and New South Wales it is limited to 650? —Yes. 13. Would you consider that to be a fair thing for metal-mines — for pumping in metalmines? —Yes, I cannot see any objection to that. 14. In the gold-mines here there is practically unlimited voltage permitted : what is your opinion as to that? —What is the power used for? * 15. Pumping? —I do not see any reason at all why you should limit it. 16. Do you think 2,500 volts is safe in a timbered shaft? —Yes, properly installed, under British Board of Trade conditions it is safe. 17. In a metal-mine?- -Yes, but not in every mine. 1 would draw the line at 650 volts in gaseous mines. 18. As to electrical firing, have you had much experience in the use of electrical batteries?— Only on ordinary contract work. 19. As to misfires, which do you consider the more prevalent—misfires with electricity or with the ordinary fuse? —Well, T could not answer that question, because I have not had enough experience. 20. Have you ever heard of electrical hangfires?—l have known cases in connection with rail-way-extension works where they have been blowing out a bank and where the battery has not put oft the charge. 21. The Chairman.'] But has the charge hung fire? —I do not know. 22. Mr. Dowgray .] AVould you be in favour of electricity being kept out of all mines where there was gas? —Well, it depends upon what it is to be used for. If it is for ordinary lighting and power, and where you can house it, Ido not think so. But I would not be in favour of its use for running locomotives, because your trolly-poles are always giving off sparks. 23. In connection with electric coal-cutting machines is there danger?—No; in that case it can be housed, and there would be no danger. It is worked on the same principle as h> the magazine motors on a battleship. 24. Is there not danger to be feared from the wires fusing in connection with coal-cutting machines? —No, not if they are properly maintained.

Westport Courthouse. —13th October, 1011. Thomas Stephbnson sworn and examined. (No. 2.) 1. The Chairman.} What are you? —A navvy, labouring on the line, and also president of the Westport General Labourers' Union. 2. What is it you wish to bring before the Commission? —Certain matters in regard to the use of explosives, with, a view to the prevention of accidents. There are instantaneous fuses and slow fuses. In cases where instantaneous and slow fuses are to be used the last fuses should be attached together before the charge is laid, and after the charge is laid the whole of the fuses should be placed into the charges so as to fire all the charges together. Instantaneous fuse is used to fire two or more shots. In my opinion, if this had been the law, the last fatality we had would not have occurred. It was during the time of connecting these fuses that the accident occurred, but there has been no evidence to show what caused the accident. ,S. Do you not think it a dangerous practice to use instantaneous fuse in any case? —No, it is not. 4. What is the value of instantaneous fuse if you have to use slow fuse to set it going?— The slow fuse is to give the lighter time. The whole of the instantaneous fuse is connected to the one slow fuse; or where a large shot has to be fired it should be fired with the electric battery, and not with the slow fuse at all. 5. Is there anything to distinguish the two fuses?— The slow fuses are red and the others white. You would know also by cutting them. 6. Ts there sufficient indication of the danger of them? —That is what I wish to draw your attention to. The instantaneous fuse should be red and the slow fuse white. 7. Mr. Parry.'] Would you tell the Commission what is the advantage of the instantaneous f use ? To allow the shots to go off instantaneously. One hole would not do the work, and so you have«to put in two and make them explode together. I also wish to speak as to the supervision of the explosives. At the present time there is no supervision except the man in charge of the Roads Department, and the scope of country he has to cover is too great for him to supervise explosives. I have been fourteen months on the railway-line, and I have never seen the Inspector there yet. There are gelignite, caps, and fuses lying all over the place. An Inspector of Explosives should be appointed in this district where there are such large contracts going on. 8. Do you not think that the battery is the better in the event of a certain number of holes being required to be fired? —Yes. 0. And you could do away with the instantaneous fuse altogether ?-—Yes. , ,

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Hokitika Courthouse. —28th October, 1911. Anton Palkbnbaoh sworn and examined. (No. 3.) 1. The Chairman.'] What are you?- —A mechanical and electrical engineer. 2. Mr. Reed.] I believe you have had considerable experience of electrical winding? —Yes. 3. In Victoria, at Charlotte Plains, and at the Ross Mine here? —Yes. 4. Can you suggest to the Commission a method of preventing accidents caused by the electric current being suddenly cut off? At the Waihi Grand Junction Mine recently a cage was precipitated to the bottom of the shaft as the result of that-—the magnetic brake failed. What would you suggest to prevent such accidents as that? —Of course, it depends upon what sort of windingengine you are using. In several instances at Charlotte Plains, when the current was cut off, the driver simply pulled the hand-brake and stopped the cage. As far as I know the engine they use at Waihi lias magnetic brakes. These act at a certain point. When the engine-driver or winchman is winding the brake comes into action when the cage is a certain distance off the landing-platform, and then again before the cage is right up to the top of the shaft. Of course, the men become accustomed to using them, and they know the brakes work automatically; but I do not think the automatic brake should be used for lowering persons down a mine—the handbrake alone should be used. If a man is winding men up and down, as long as he has one hand on the handle of the starter' of the motor and the other on the brake nothing can happen. 5. But, in the event of the cage being only 20 ft. from the bottom of the shaft when the current is cut off, before the driver can realize that anything is wrong the cage may have struck the bottom? —I do not think so, because the cage should have at that point only a certain speed on. 6. But even when there is practically no speed on? —Of course, if they are using automatic brakes some apparatus could be devised to be fixed to the winch which would come into action as soon as the current is cut off. Some tell-tale should be devised to warn the driver that the current is cut off. 7. What sort of tell-tale? —A voltmeter or electric lamp. 8. Is it not necessary that the driver should know instantaneously? —Yes. When the driver is lowering men he generally shuts the current off before the cage reaches the bottom, if the winch is such that it depends upon the current being on or off. If lie is winding there should be a telltale in front of him. 9. So that you are not in favour of using an automatic brake? —No. 10. You believe only in the hand-brake? —Yes. An automatic brake is good, but it is liable to get out of order. 1.1. Does not this accident seem to indicate that it failed?----It was apparently out of order. 12. Would not a tell-tale lamp be more easily seen that a voltmeter? —Yes. 13. There should be a powerful light in front of the driver?— Yes, it would be a good thing to have one of those opaque lamps. 14. As regards mining electricians, I suppose you are aware that a mining electrician comes under a mine-manager, who may not happen to know anything about electricity?—No, I am against that. The mine-manager ought not to be in charge of any electrical power-house. In Victoria the manager is not in charge. I myself had two instances of that sort of thing. In one case the manager had to come down twenty miles to inspect the power-house, and then he asked me which was the generator and which the Pelton wheel. I contend that the man who does not know that surely is not in a position to say if the power-house is in order or not. 15. Would you be in favour of mining electricians being certificated, as in Great Britain? —Yes, and he should be the man in sole charge of the power. The assistant would not require to be certificated. 16. By examination? —Yes, or by service, or by producing a certificate from a college, so long as the applicant can prove his competency. 17. Have you studied the electrical regulations under the New Zealand Mining Act? —Yes. 18. Have you any suggestions to make with a view to their improvement? —Yes, I have marked several of them. There is, in the first place, the matter of the mine-manager being in charge of the power-house, to which I have already referred. Under the regulations the mine-manager would be the man in charge, and, as I said, that is absurd, for he would probably know nothing at all about electricity. The Hoss Goldfields, for example, has power in excess of their own requirements, and could supply power to other mines. Supposing that it supplied power to a number of mines, according to the Mining Act each mine-manager of these mines would be in charge of the powerhouse, and would have to inspect the power-house once, a week and give his opinion as to whether the power-house and its apparatus are in good working-order or not. Then in section 11 (General), subsection (i), of the regulations it says, "That no repairs to the live parts of any electrical apparatus, except mere wiping or oiling, shall be done w r hen the current is on, and that there shall be no departure from this regulation except when a stoppage of the current is, in the opinion of the manager, liable to involve danger. Such repairs shall be carried out subject to the manager's approval and such special instructions as he may issue." But you never cut the current off if it is not necessary. Another thing is that the manager does not know about the repairing of electrical apparatus. He cannot give instructions in regard to that matter. The man in charge should give the instructions as to what is to be done in the way of repairs. .Supposing the transmission-line breaks down it is the electrician in charge of the power-house who has to effect the repairs. 19. But would it not be necessary for the electrical officer to give instructions to the manager? If the electrician required costly supplies to effect repairs he would have to procure them through the manager?— The matter of the cost and ordering of supplies is quite a different matter altogether. Of course, any company which employs a competent engineer asks him to make a list of what supplies he wants when repairs have to be effected. He would not consult the manager as to what he wanted, The manager may be a manager, but he would not be an electrician.

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20. AVould it not be better for the mining electrician to give these instructions by permission of the manager ?—Well, that is a matter which concerns only the company which employs him. I do not think it would be necessary to get any permission from the mine-manager. _ As engineer in charge of the power-house I would give my own orders. Why should I ask the mine-manager? It would be the directors of the company, if anybody, whom I would ask. 21. But it is the practice throughout Australasia; all the men are under the manager's direction? —It may be so here, but not in Australia. I sent my reports direct to the company. If, for instance, I wanted material for installation, to take the manager away from his work and ask him to go through a list of supplies which he would not understand would be absurd. 22. At Charlotte Plains you had a mine-manager, but if you had a superintendent over you all the case would be different, would it not?— Well, if there is a superintendent over all he would be a sort of director, and then the electrical engineer would be independent of the mine-manager but responsible to the superintendent; but that would be provided for in the regulations of the company itself. 23. You refer to the certificated mine-manager 2—Yes; but, still, the certificated mine-manager might have a general knowledge of machinery and electricity and yet not be competent to inspect electrical machinery—he is entirely concerned with his mining. Another point I wish to refer to is in regard to" having an electrician on the surface. The regulation says, "A competent person shall be on duty at the mine when the electrical apparatus or machinery is in use; and at such time as the amount of electricity delivered down the mine exceeds 200 horse-power a competent person shall be on duty at the mine above ground and another below ground." I think 200 horse-power is below what should be fixed to require two men to be in attendance. It would mean that a company working full time would need six men —two on each shift. With a- small mine that would involve an expense which is not necessary. It is not necessary to have a man standing on the surface, as the Ross Goldfields did. They had to employ a man for that purpose under the regulations. One of the winchmen would know enough to deal with anything which might be required; it would only mean perhaps the pushing-in of a switch. I think that should be extended to from 400 to 500 horse-power; then the company could afford to have another man. 24. Is it not necessary to have a man below in case a cable or wire is arcing?—No, because an arc is generally formed by a short circuit, and as soon as a short circuit forms the fuse or automatic cut-out will blow out. 25. But in the event of anything happening to the current below he may take charge, lor instance, in case of fire or shocks to the men, an experienced electrician might be able to act .more promptly than, say, a miner ?—I do not object to having the man below, but I do object as to the necessity for the man on the surface; he is not necessary. Should anything happen below, if an engineer is there he could switch the current off at once, but on the surface the enginedrivers know enough to be able to pull out a switch. At Charlotte Plains these men did this work. 26. Did you allow inexperienced men around the switchboard there? —Yes, the winding-engine driver was properly instructed as to how to do these things. 27. As regards the voltage carried into a mine, we followed at first the British and New South Wales practice of allowing nothing higher than 650 volts, but there has since been an amendment increasing it: do you consider it safe to allow the higher voltages to be taken into a mine?—No, Ido not think it is safe; I think 650 volts is quite high enough. 28. A company controlling a mine in the north —the Crown Mme —insisted upon its being increased to 2,000 volts : do you consider that dangerous ?—Well, a high voltage to be used purely for pumping would not be dangerous, but if any man got a shock from a wire carrying 650 volts it would be sufficient for him. 29. In connection with fires, is not 2,000 volts dangerous?—No, I do not think so, because if anything burns through the installation burns away from the wires, and the automatic cut-out acts. But in any case, if the nian on the surface saw smoke he would switch the current once himself, and down below in a pumping-shaft the engineer there could do so also. For pumping in a shaft it would not be dangerous. 30. But what about the voltage for traction purposes?—l think 500 volts would be quite enough for them —continuous current, not alternating. 31. The Chairman] There is just one point I want cleared up: in connection with the accident at AVaihi did I understand you to say that the current was cut off?—AVell, not that the current was shut off, but that the current was taken off at the motor. They were starting the motors. The winch revolves as long as the motor revolves, and when the cage gets to a certain point underground the driver must shut off the current. In most of these mines they have telltales which show the different levels, and when the cage gets to a certain point the current is switched off so that the cage does not overrun the level. 32. According to that, if the current is cut off when the cage is 20 ft. from the bottom, the cage ought to be under the control of the brake?— Yes, it ought to be under the control of the brake. If the current is on it would wind right down. 33. And the automatic brake would stop it?—No, not taking the automatic brake into consideration. I think in this accident the brake did not stop it. Its use ought not to be allowed for lowering men. . . 34. Mr. Reed] I think they have a magnetic brake there and compressed-air hand-bra-he, and they were lowering men 16 ft. from the bottom—that is, one revolution from the bottom?—lt depends upon the diameter of the drum. 35. The diameter of the drum would be about, 12 ft. ?—lt all depends upon the speed ot winding. They should cut off the current a good distance from tin; bottom, so that the windingdrum is well in hand. .. 3.6. An accident such as that is not conceivable to you?— Not tlirough cutting off the current. 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he expected the magnetic brake to act, but it did not do so, and then the cage went down. In that case a man would have no time to use another brake. It does not take the cage long to travel 16 ft., whereas it takes a good deal of time to work any other brake. 37. As a matter of fact, the cage ought to be well under control? —Yes. 38. You believe in prohibiting these automatic brakes and having hand-brakes only! —Yes, for lowering men. 39. You favour an independent brake? —Yes, a powerful lever brake, the same as we have here at the Ross Goldfields. 40. There is a more powerful brake, called a " Post " brake, with more leverage below? — Yes, that is what I mean. A hand-brake is the most certain to act. 41. Mr. Molineau%.] In speaking of an automatic brake we applied the term to a brake which comes into action when the cage rises above a certain point on the surface, the object being to prevent an overwind. I take it that the automatic brake which you speak of would not be a similar appliance?— Yes, that is what I am speaking of; it prevents an overwind upwards or downwards. 42. No, not the brake which 1 speak of; it only conies into action when the cage is a certain distance above the surface? —Yes, that is the same brake, because when one cage is coming up the other is going down. When the one is down at the bottom the other is up at the plat. If it xtops the one from going down it must stop the other from coming up. 43. But the brake I speak of only comes into operation when the cage has landed at the bottom ; it prevents the cage at the top being overwound ?—I see. 44. Is that the same style of appliance you have been speaking of? —Yes. 45. 1 understood you to say that when the cage comes within a certain distance of the surface the automatic brake comes into operation to stop the velocity of the cage? —Yes. 46. Then it appears to me that they are not the same appliances?— Yes, I think they are. 47. It is generally considered better, I think, to leave the question of the velocity of the cage to the engine-driver?— Yes, that is so; but even then, if he depends upon his magnetic brake and the current is cut off, the magnetic brake will not act —it is an automatic brake. 48. An automatic brake may be worked either by steam or compressed air?— Yes. 19. Take a winding-engine similar to that at the Grand Junction Mine, and supposing they are depending on the compressed-air brake, not upon the electric power, if the compressed-air brake had been used on all occasions when the power was shut off from the motor the driver could still have had the engine under his control with his compressed-air brake? —Yes, that is what 1 said before. 50. Mr. lleed.~\ How do you propose to cut off the electric power before you apply your handbrake —automatically? —No, by hand; by the starter. The driver should have it well in hand. 51. By the resistance? —Yes. The winding-engine driver should never have his hand off his handle. It cuts the resistance out in notches or turns. It accelerates slowly until it reaches full speed, and then the driver must cut the current off and let the velocity carry it up. 52. So that you are in favour of the hand-brake, with the addition of a tell-tale light? —Yes, for lowering men, not for trucks. For lowering men I am against using any automatic brake.

Johk Rowb Leggo sworn and examined. (No. 4.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you? — 1 am travelling instructor for Nobel's Explosive Company, of Glasgow. 2. How long have you hold that position? — J have been an instructor for eighteen years. '■.>. Our inquiry covers the question of accidents from the use and firing of explosives : if urn have any general information to give us as to the minimizing of such accidents we shall be pleased to hear you? —Well, I am a believer in electric firing as absolutely the safest method. 4. And how is that method from an economical point of view? —I think it is just as cheap us firing with the ordinary safetj' fuse. 5. And, from a working point of view, as to manipulation? —-It is just as simple. 6. Would you suggest that it should be used in all cases, or only for a given number of shots? —I would suggest that it should be used for a given number of shots, not so much for single holes. 7. How many shots? —Any number above one, and especially in outside workings such as cuttings. If you are firing four or five holes in "a cutting, and the holes are 8 ft., 10 ft., or 12 ft. deep, the safety fuse, which has a travelling-rate of ninety seconds per yard, may not be satisfactory, because something may come on the scene before the charges explode, whereas with electricity the shot is fired as soon as the word is given. Not only that, but with the low-tension fuse it is possible to examine and test it to make sure of it by the aid of a galvanometer. With high-tension electric detonators you cannot test them by the aid of a galvanometer. 8. Have you any opinion to offer as to instantaneous fuse? —The instantaneous fuse was a very excellent article before the electric firing came into use, but there is now no advantage to be gained by using it for single holes. 1). You think ft has had its day? —Yes. 10. And as to the danger from the use of it, do you consider that if it is used it ought to be distinctly marked in colour to prevent its being taken for ordinary slow fuse?— Yes, certainly. T have a sample of electric fuse here [produced] which can hardly be distinguished from our ordinary red sump fuse; it is the same colour and the same size. That fuse travels at the rate of 100 ft. per second, whereas the red sump travels at ninety seconds per yard. 11. There should be a, definite colour for each of them?— Absolutely

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12. Now, as to the question of explosives which may be used in gaseous mines?—l would suggest the use of some flameless safety explosive, such as monobel, kynite, or ammonite; they are all effective explosives, and, what is more, they have less injurious fumes than, ordinary powder. 13. Supposing you wanted to blow out timber in or near a gob in a fiery mine, is there anyexplosive that could safely be used? —Yes, the ordinary flameless explosive such as monobel —that is, with a fair amount of tamping, and provided it was not overcharged. 14. But there could not be much tamping at all in connection with timber? —Well, that is the safest explosive that could be used. The tamping would only be necessary to smother a small flame that is created by the detonator. 15. Could such shots be fired by electricity with safety?— Absolutely; that is, so far as science can possibly demonstrate to us. 16. Supposing it was tested immediately before firing, and that explosive was used immediately, do you think it could be done with reasonable safety? —I should say so. In the testing of all explosives —I speak of monobel with greater knowledge —we used what is known as a testingchamber, which is a boiler with greater strength than an ordinary boiler. This boiler is charged with various gases which are found in fiery mines, and also with very fine coaldust, which is put in motion by means of a jet of compressed air. At the mouth of this chamber there is a gun charged with the explosive. The slightest flame would cause an explosion. Each batch is put to that test, and if it shows flame the whole batch is condemned. 17. And from that lest you can recommend monobel? —Yes, or any of the permitted explosives; they are all under British Government supervision and tests. 18. Mr. Cochrane.'] With regard to safety explosives in fiery mines, what would you designate a fiery mine? Do you know the definition? —Well, lam not an expert collier; my experience in colliery work is comparatively small. 19. Are you aware that mining engineers deem a mine to be fiery when there is 2J- per cent, of firedamp in the return? What would you say as to the safety of using these explosives in mines having a little gas?—l can only say that this explosive is used in large quantities in every mine in the British Isles, and I figure there will be some fiery mines there. 20. Then, in regard to blasting in a mine with only a little gas, what would you say as to the use of gelignite?—l think gelignite is a dangerous explosive to use in coal-mines under anycon ditions. 21. Mr. Dowyray.] Would you be able to get in sufficient monobel for blowing out timber? —- Yes, monobel has a strength within 10 per cent, of No. 1 dynamite. You could have it put up in any size you liked. There is this about electric firing : you can divide the requisite quantity into a number of charges, if necessary, and fire simultaneously. 22. Is this monobel similar to roburite? —It is. It has 82 per cent, of nitrate of ammonium, 10 per cent, of glycerine, and the rest is made up of woodmeal and moisture.■• 23. In regard to the list of permitted explosives, is not a fiery mine in the Old Country one in which safety-lamps are used?— Yes. 24. It is not a matter as to whether an engineer considers it a fiery mine? —No. In any case it is a step in the right direction, because we never know when the conditions in a mine are going to change. It has less fumes and no flame. Mr. McEwan here has taken the step in this district. 25. Mr. Parry.'] During your travels have you ever heard or seen a hole explode twice? — Yes, I have, but not with this compound. 26. But with dynamite? —Yes, I have. 27. What do you attribute that to? —A weak detonator in the first place, and perhaps the fuse igniting the top plug. That plug, being set fire to, generates sufficient heat to explode the remaining portion of the charge. Nitro-glycerine is supposed to withstand heat up to 600° Fahr. You can set fire to a plug, and it will burn, but if you took a similar plug and threw it into a strong fire it would probably blow the house up. 28. How do you account for two explosions? —One would be only a small explosion through imperfect detonation. 29. The one would be the detonator against the explosive?— Yes. Then, sometimes, through bad storage or climatic changes, one plug is less sensitive than another. They may be mixed, with the less sensitive one at the bottom, and the more sensitive plug on top goes off first, and by its heat and concussion it explodes the other, making a second exj)losion and report. 30. Is it possible to have two explosions with one detonator and one fuse? —Yes, but such an occurrence is very rare. 31. Knowing that, it is possible to take precautions against accidents from that cause? — That is so. 32. The Chairman.] The explosions would be almost instantaneous —not one explosion and then a hangfire?—No. 33. Mr. Parry. | One man told us that an explosion took place, and after waiting ten minutes they walked back and there was another explosion : how do you account for that? —A portion of the charge had exploded. Was the second explosion of any magnitude? 34. Yes? —Then you must remember that there is a tremendous heat generated in the hole, and fragments of burning paper, or fuse, or some feature in the rock must have become very hot and raised the remaining portion of the charge to exploding-point. 35. The Chairman.] We have had a suggestion made to us that all explosives should be stamped with the date of the month of their manufacture? —Yes, so ours are, but not each plug. It is my duty to inspect the magazines and see that our explosives go out in proper rotation. 36. Mr. Parry.] Seeing that you admit, as a man with a great deal of experience, that some dynamite is in better condition than others, do you not think it would minimize accidents to a

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great extent if there were a man like yourself, who understood good dynamite from bad, to manipulate the supply? —I certainly think that in a big mine it would be a good thing to have a " powdermonkey " with a good knowledge of explosives. 37. To deal with the explosives?— Yes. 38. The But would that meet the case? For instance, could you tell by superficial examination of the charges whether one was stale or in good order ? —Yes, I could, but I could not tell you whether the detonator was weak or strong. 39. You think that is a good suggestion? —Yes. 40. Mr. Cochrane.] What do you think of the practice of taking gelignite into mines in single tins like plan cases?— Well, if the temperature is satisfactory and the mine dry it is all right. It is like a magazine :if the temperature is high the stuff will deteriorate after a few days, and then again if it is very, very cold it would become sluggish. This monobel is a rather sensitive powder, and should be carried down in daily requirements. 41. Would it be preferable to use thawing tins?— But the best way is to avoid thawing altogether by carefully attending to the storage. 42. By keeping it at a uniform temperature? —Yes. 43. Mr. Parry.] In regard to men taking the wrappers off dynamite, do you think that should be stopped?— Absolutely; they should be fined. 44. As regards the bulling of holes—where men fire holes two or three times if the burden is not removed —is that practice detrimental to a man's health? —No, not unless the explosive has burned in the hole. If it is burned it gives off ten times the amount of injurious fumes which would come from an ordinary explosion. 45. But, in the event of dynamite not shifting its burden, does it not give off greater fumes than it would otherwise? —No. 46. But a man, in loading the hole the second time, would be more liable to suffer, would he not? —Yes, he should keep his nose away from the hole. He should also throw in a can of water and wait until the hole cools down. A number of accidents have occurred through this same bulling, because men do not know what is left in the hole, and neglect to take this precaution. 47. No doubt you have read and heard of a number of accidents resulting from dynamite being allowed to lie about the bottom of shafts ?—Yes; but the trouble is that you may be an instructor, or whatever you like, but when you talk to a miner and tell him so-and-so he will tell you he has been " working at this game " for twenty-five years and has not been blown up yet.

INSPECTION OF BOILERS. -INSPECTORS' EVIDENCE. DUNEDIN CoUBTHOUSE. 29'fH SEPTEMBER, 1911. Archibald Walker sworn and examined. (No. 1.) 1. The Chairman.] You are Inspector of Machinery under the Government? —Yes, and surveyor of ships and boilers and machinery on land-work. 2. In regard to the inspection of boilers, you are aware of the provisions of the Mining Act as to the hydraulic test? —Yes. 3. Is that test carried out? —No, not as far as I am aware, because we do not test under the Mines Act: we issue a certificate from our own Department in conjunction with the Mines Department from year to year. I may say that there are five-thousand-odd boilers inspected in New Zealand, and eight hundred in Otago, for which we issue certificates annually. All steam boilers come under the Inspection of Machinery Act, and that includes mine boilers. 4. Subsection (37) of section 254 of the Mining Act requires that " once in every twelve months every such boiler shall be subjected to an hydraulic test " —that is, a test which is to be made by the owner or person in charge of the boiler I—lf1 —If you read that section carefully you will see that it requires all boilers to be tested annually by an hydraulic test, but you will notice that it does not say to what pressure, and I therefore consider the provision is practically useless. In fact, we do not consider it necessary at all unless in conjunction with another inspection. 5. No, it is not to be tested by you? —No; but I may say we have instructions from the Chief Inspector of Machinery, dated, I think, in 1907, telling us that if we are in doubt we are to carry out this test in conjunction with the Inspector of Mines. If any doubt arises of any kind we are only too pleased to do so. But we consider that when that clause was framed the pressures being used were practically infinitesimal as compared with present pressure. 6. Do you test the boilers on dredges and about mines by hydraulic test? —If we think it necessary. I may point out that in this country new boilers are always tested to double the work-ing-pressure for workmanship, but not to see whether the boiler is strong enough, because we know it is strong enough by calculation and by the design. To safeguard the owners and others that test is made; it is the test laid down by the British Board of Trade for new work. 7. Well, have you a regular system of testing—the Act here specially mentions the hydraulic test?—l may explain that we have a regular system of inspection. We examine the boilers internally and externally once a year to the best of our ability. We do not take down the brickwork every year, because we know the parts which are likely to deteriorate. We lay it down pretty fairly what the test is to be. The Mining Act and Coal-mines Act say nothing about the extent of the hydraulic test. The provision in those Acts is, I think, a copy of the English Act. That is only my opinion; I do not know the English Act. 8. Mr. Beed.] You suggest that this section is copied from an obsolete Act? —I do not know, but I think so.

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9. Would you be surprised to hear that every British country has this regulation?—l do not know. 10. The New South Wales Act has it. It reads, "At least once in every six months every boiler shall be thoroughly cleansed, and once in every twelve months such boiler shall be subjected to an examination and hydrostatic test by a competent and thoroughly qualified person; the test of working-boilers shall be equal to one and a half times the pressure at which the safety-valve blows off, and that of new boilers double the intended working-pressure"?— Yes, that is more up to date. 11. Now I will read you the Victorian regulations: do you think this is obsolete? The Victorian current legislation states that " Once in every six months, or more frequently if an Inspector of Mines considers it necessary, every boiler shall be thoroughly cleansed, and once in every twelve months every such boiler shall first be subjected to examination, and afterwards shall be subjected to an hydraulic test." The States of Western Australia and Queensland have the same provisions ? —I consider our inspection here more adequate than that. 12. In addition to your test do you think it would be detrimental to subject the boilers to the hydraulic test? —It would be unnecessary. 13. But as Parliament has determined upon this test is it for you to say what is necessary? —I do not determine the matter at all. 14. But you are an Inspector under this Act as far as machinery is concerned?— Yes, as to boilers. 15. Do you consider that these statutes I have quoted from, which necessitate an hydraulic test, are obsolete? —I would not like to say that. 16. Do you say that the advisers of these States in connection with machinery testing are obsolete in their ideas ?—I say that our Act does not lay down the pressure. 17. But that is at the option of the Inspector?—No, sir, I do not think so. 18. Would you recommend that this clause be deleted from the Mining Act? —Well, if I were framing an Act I would not put it in, because I do not think it is necessary. 19. The Chairman.~\ Supposing the section were recast to provide a fair test with a fair pressure, would it be reasonable to require the owners to do it? —No, I should think that the annual inspection should be considered sufficient—it should be left to the discretion of the Inspector. 20. Is it not better to determine a matter by statute than to leave it to the option of an Inspector? You might carry out your inspections very well, but some Inspectors may not? —Well, Mr. Chairman, I would point out that for any boilers built in New Zealand a test of one and a half times the working-pressure is worth nothing, because they are built to stand a considerable amount over their working-pressure—a great deal more than one and a half times. There are standards laid down as to the strength of the material. In the New South Wales Act there is no provision for such an investigation as we have here with expert boiler inspectors; neither are there expert boiler inspectors under the Government in England to issue certificates as we do in New Zealand. These Acts which have been quoted are in force in countries where, if I may be permitted to say so, they do not run things in the same way as we do here. The boilers imported into New Zealand are under special supervision from the time of their birth. The smallest factor of safety for new work is 5. 21. Mr. Reed.] You say that the lowest factor of safety here is 5. Now, suppose the boiler were subjected to an hydraulic test of one and a half times the working-pressure, would it injure the boiler at all ?—No, not in the slightest degree. 22. We have been told that the owners of the boilers on some of the dredges in Otago are afraid that the boilers would burst if they were subjected to that test. What do you think of that evidence? —It is all moonshine. 23. Do you consider a one and a half test is adequate? —I consider it is not a bit of use. 24. But it would not hurt the boiler in the sjightest?—No, not in the slightest. 25. So that there is no harm in having this provision in the Act? —No. 26. Mr. Mnlineauxi\ Do you consider it advisable that this test should remain in the Act?— Well, if you want my opinion, I say this test is not necessary. 27. It fulfils no good purpose?— That is so. 28. Mr. Dowgray.] Would this hydraulic test of one and a half times the working-pressure, referred to by Mr. Reed, not discover any defects in a boiler?— Well, I do not know, I am sure. I have not had sufficient experience in testing in that way for defects. 29. I thought I heard you say you were a boiler expert? —-Yes. 30. Do boiler experts not test with the hydraulic test? —Not unless under special conditions. 31. Is the hydraulic test a good test? —Yes, under some conditions. 32. Under what conditions? —For testing, when repairs have been effected to boilers, as regards the workmanship. 33. If a boiler has been working for eight or ten years does it not deteriorate? —Sometimes. Would you be surprised to know that boilers have been running for fifty years, and are now running with the original pressure? 34. Do you place the inspection carried out in New Zealand above that of any other country, such as Australia or Great Britain? —Well, in proportion to the number of boilers in use, we have fewer explosions than they have in Australia, or Great Britain, or America. 35. Is that a matter of good luck? —No, it is owing to good inspection. 36. How long does it take you to make an inspection? —It depends on the size of the boiler. You cannot lay down any hard-and-fast rule as to time. 37. When you are appointed Inspector of Boilers are there not certain conditions laid down for the inspection of boilers? —Yes. 38. Do you carry them out? —Yes.

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39. Did you ever see that report-book, referred to in the section in the Mining Act, in -which the result of the hydraulic test is to be entered?—No, I have; never seen those books in the mines. 40. Have you ever asked to see them? —No. 41. You remember a boiler accident at Kumara when three men were killed : your Department had tested that boiler, had it not? —I believe so. 42. With the hydraulic test? —No. 43. If the hydraulic test had been applied would those lives have been saved? —It depends upon the extent to which it was tested. 44. If it had been tested to one and a half times the working-pressure?—No, it would not have made the slightest difference. 45. Do you mean to infer that it was working beyond its working-pressure?— There is no evidence to show. Unfortunately, the man was killed who was driving the engine. 46. Where do we get our best boilers manufactured just now? —Well, I suppose we make as good boilers in New Zealand as are manufactured anywhere. 47. Are not most of them imported into New Zealand? —Some years more are imported than in others, but it depends upon the rush of work. 48. Do you not think that the men in the Old Country have made a deeper study of boilertesting than they have here?— Well, we practically follow the British Board of Trade rules here. 49. Do those rules not lay it down that they shall be bored? —Yes, where required. 50. Is that not the test laid B down by them? —With the hydraulic test also. I am talking of the annual inspection, and you are talking of the inspection of new work. Practically double the working-pressure is the test for workmanship; it is not a test of the strength of the boiler. 51. Is the hydraulic test not designed to see whether the boiler is capable of standing that pressure?— Yes. You are only testing with double the working-pressure, but not to one and a half times above the working-pressure. 52. Would the hydraulic test not be better than the other test?—No, I do not think so. If I were testing with the hydraulic test I would take all the brickwork oft. 53. To effectively test with the hydraulic test would that be necessary? —Yes. 54. Mr. Reed.] Is it not necessary also to remove the brickwork to inspect for corrosion as well as for the hydraulic test? —Well, we run boilers at sea for considerable periods bagged all round, and you cannot get round them. 55. In regard to these dredge-boilers which have been run until the dredge itself is no longer required, do you not think "it is better to be sure than sorry" as far as testing them is concerned? —I would be just as sure with my present system of inspection as with any hydraulic test unless you put it up to bursting-pressure. Many of these dredge-boilers still work to the original pressure. They are sometimes taken out of the dredges and put into use elsewhere.

Gretmouth Courthouse. —27th October, 1911. Peter McKenzie sworn and examined. (No. 2.) 1. The Chairman.] You are Inspector of Machinery for this district? —Yes. 2. Mr. Molineaux.] Is it part of your duty to examine boilers in course of construction?— Yes. 3. And when constructed they are passed by you before leaving the yards?— Yes, if I am in the district at the time. At present, however, there are two boilers working under a permit because I was absent in the south when they were finished. They were tested in the foundry to twice the working-pressure before the owners. 4. In what manner do you inspect the boiler before it leaves the foundry?— The plans are first submitted to me to see that all the parts will carry the working-pressure required—the shell, the rivet section, the tube, and plates —and as to how it is to be stayed. The factor of safety ranges from 52 to 6"2. 5. For what purpose, in a new boiler of that description, is the hydraulic test applied?—lt is always applied in a new boiler. 6. The Chairman.] By whom? —By the foundry-proprietors in the presence of the Inspector. It is applied for the purpose of finding the leaks. Sometimes a rivet may be put in slack and not filling the hole, and hammering up might break that rivet. When the hydraulic test is applied it immediately finds the weak spots. 7. That is, the hydraulic test is applied for. detecting faulty construction? —Yes. 8. Mr. Molineaux.] Would you consider the hydraulic test a suitable one for finding the strength of the boiler?—No, certainly not. The hydraulic test is applied to a new boiler to find any bad workmanship. 9. Are boilers that are imported into New Zealand also examined by the Inspectors of Machinery?— Always; and if not up to the New Zealand standard, which is Traill's rule, they have to be strengthened to come up to our requirements. The New Zealand law on the subject is the strictest in the world. 10. Do you apply the hydraulic test for the same purpose—for workmanship—before permitting imported boilers to be used? —Yes. 11. What does your annual test consist of? How do you examine the boiler?—We examine it for corrosion or defects of any kind. Igo inside and make my examination. Sometimes the plates get wasted away as the result of acids. Then an external examination is made to see if the seams are being burned with the fire. The examination is a general one to find any weak spots which may have developed.

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12. In the case of a Cornish boiler, which is bricked in, what course do you take when examining? —We crawl through the flues to make our inspection. Sometimes we get the brickwork removed, but that is only done about once every two or three years. We use a candle on the end of a stick sometimes to enable us to see better, if there is any indication of scale forming we have the brickwork taken down. 13. Do you consider that the hydraulic test, if applied annually, would be any guide as to the safety of a boiler? —No, certainly not. I can give you a few proofs of that if you would like to hear them. These are extracts from Wannans' : " Boiler exploded at Maldon, killing driver : Tested by hydraulic pressure only a month before, showing no defects. Boiler exploded at Castlemaine : Tested by hydraulic pressure to twice working-pressure only two months previous, showing no defects. Boiler exploded at South Melbourne : Tested two months before, hydraulic test, showing no defects. Boiler exploded at Richmond : Tested by hydraulic pressure to twice workingpressure three months previous, showing no defects." And then I have these extracts from Stromeyer : " Locomotive boiler, tested to 1961b. hydraulic pressure, burst seven months later at 120 lb. Boiler-shell burst through manhole at 100 lb. after having been tested recently to 150 lb. Boiler-shell exploded at 83 1b!; it had recently been tested cold to 92 Ib. Furnace collapsed at 501b.; it had been tested to 951b. only three days previously. A boiler burst at 301b. workingpressure after a cold-water test of 591b." Those are a few examples. 1 could give you another twenty if required. 14. Do you consider that the hydraulic test applied by an inexperienced man is likely to be dangerous?— Yes, it is likely to be dangerous to the boiler in as far as it creates strains on the boiler; cold water always creates a strain. If the boiler has been working the iron changes to a granular state. Cast iron cannot stand, the test, and when the shell, after a certain number of years, gets into that granular state it is dangerous to test the boiler with cold water, and that test should not be carried out. 15. What do you consider is the most frequent cause of explosions'! —Old age and the hydraulic test. The Board of Trade returns of boiler explosions in Great Britain for the year ended the 30th June, 1907, show seventy-seven explosions, causing the deaths of twenty-eight persons and the injury of sixty-five, and state that " nearly all the catastrophes seem to have been due to weakness, mostly the result of the age of the boilers." 16. Is the hydraulic test carried out annually in the Australian States? —I could not say. It was in general use up to a few years ago. I cannot say whether it is in vogue now. The Inspector used to put on the hydraulic test, but he did not go through the boilers like we do in New Zealand. If the test was satisfactory he was satisfied. 17. With regard to engine-drivers, will you inform the Commission how you consider an engine-driver should be trained?—He should be trained under a certificated engine-driver, who should be at all times alongside when the learner is practising. The learner should be for six months, at any rate, under a certificated man. 18. And during that six months should he be supposed to handle debris only?— The clause does not state whether it is material or men he is to wind. It is left to the discretion of the engine-driver whether he allows the learner to handle men. The certificated engine-driver is at all times responsible. 19. You are an examiner of engine-drivers?— Yes. 20. Would you consider a man competent who, when sitting for his examination, told you that he had never raised or lowered men?— Certainly not. He would not be competent; but that matter is not left to our discretion at all. All the papers ate forwarded to the Head Office in Wellington, where they go before the Board of Examiners. All the names of men in the district who are coming up for examination are submitted to the local Inspector. We have no power to reject a man if he has been passed by the Board. 21. You consider a man would not be competent if he had not raised.or lowered men, but the regulations say that he shall not raise or lower men until he has a certificate? —Is that so? I did not know. 22. The Chairman.] Under the latest mining regulations it is provided that no person other than a certificated driver shall raise or lower men, and no other persons shall be in the engineroom while he is raising or lowering men? —Well, that is going to prevent any one from going up for examination. 23. But the suggestion or inference is that he shall get his certificate without raising or lowering men? —Without any experience? 24. No, but with only the experience of raising dirt?- Yes. [Witness reads regulation.] 25. Mr. Molineaux.] As an examiner do you consider a man would be competent if he only had experience of raising debris, and then sat for his certificate under those regulations?— Certainly not; he must be allowed to handle the engine. 26. Those regulations do not debar him from handling the engine, but only from raising or lowering men?— Well, then, this means that whenever a signal is given that men are coming up he has to go out of the engine-room. Of. course, he could become proficient in raising men equally as well as in raising debris. 27. The Chairman.] Except as to his own nerve? —That is so; but if a man is bothered with nerves he has no business to be there at all. 28. Supposing a man obtaining his certificate on raising dirt, under this regulation he would have to begin raising men without any one else in the engine-room?— Yes. 29. Do you think that is a safe practice?— No. It looks as if it would be necessary to make two classes of winding-engine drivers, a first and a second class, the second to only raise and lower men under a first-class certificated man.

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30. But no other person is tc be there! — Excepting the certificated driver. There must be two certificated drivers in the room when they are changing watches. 31. But not necessarily when they are raising men?— That is so; but they are generally changing at the same time. 32. Mr. Reed.] As regards your statement that the New Zealand law in regard to the inspection of boilers is the strictest in the world, do you understand the laws in other parts of the world on the subject?- -Yes. 33. Tell me the law in Victoria? —I could not do so without looking up my books in the office. 34. Are you aware that the law in New South Wales requires boilers in use to undergo the hydraulic test? —Yes. 35. You stated that it injured the boilers to test them?— Yes, old boilers, not new ones. 36. Supposing a boiler were subjected to an hydraulic test of one and a half times its working-pressure would it be injured thereby? —I say Yes; that is, an old boiler, over twenty years of age. 37. But you did not state that before? —No. 38. So that it would be only boilers over twenty years of age which would be injured by the test?-—Well, I would say from ten years, though the plate is not brittle at ten years like what it is at twenty years. 39. So that if anybody stated that a hydraulic test of one and a half times the workingpressure would not injure a boiler you would consider his opinion wrong?— Certainly. 40. Would you be surprised to hear that Mr. Walker, Inspector of Machinery at Dunedin, said so before this Commission? —It is not the rule of the Department, at any rate. 41. So that you boiler experts disagree?— Yes; in the explosions I quoted all the boilers had been hydraulically tested. 42. You stated that the majority of boiler-explosions were due to old age and the hydraulic test: what evidence have you to show that any one of those explosions was due to the hydraulic test? —I said that the hydraulic test had been applied immediately before the explosions took place. When the inquiries were held that was the conclusion they came to. 43. Will you quote us one case in which the report showed that was the conclusion arrived at? —I have none of my books here. 44. Is not the most frequent cause of boiler-explosions the water getting low? —1 would not say that; it is a frequent cause. 45. Did a boiler burst in this district? —Yes. 46. Had it been hydraulically tested? —No. 47. How had it been examined? —By the hammer test. 48. How many people were killed ?—Three. 49. Have you ever known a boiler to explode in New Zealand after the hydraulic test?— No. 50. But you have heard of one bursting which had not been subjected to that test?— Yes. In the first place, the boilers in New Zealand are not hydraulically tested, with the exception of a few mining boilers None of the sawmill boilers are subjected to the hydraulic test. 51. If the hydraulic test is the cause of explosions and accidents can you explain why the* States of Australia and New Zealand allow the hydraulic test to remain on their statute-books? — It is a matter of opinion. 52. It is an important matter of opinion, is it not?— Well, the Board of Trade is not upholding it. The Australian explosions are damning it. 53. If they do so why is it allowed to remain on their statute-books? —I do not know, but Cruickshanks and others condemn it. 54. Is it not a fact that the Inspectors of Boilers are good men ?—Yes. 55. Is it not a fact that their recommendations are embodied in the statutes?— Yes; but the majority of them were made before the present Inspectors were in power. 56. But are not amendments to the mining statutes frequently passed, and yet this objectionable hydraulic test remains on the statute-books in these countries? —It is not enforced. 57. Where is it not enforced? —Here. 58. Are you greater than Parliament that you do not enforce what Parliament enacts? — But it is left to our discretion. 59. You are supposed to see that it is done? —Not the Inspector of Machinery. If you read the section carefully you will see that. 60. " And once in every twelve months every such boiler shall be subjected to an hydraulic test, and the date and full description of every such test and cleansing shall be entered in a book to be kept by the mine-manager or other person in charge of the mine, and the entries in such book shall on demand be open to the perusal of any Inspector under this Act or under the Inspection of Machinery Act, 1908 "'? —You see it says that the book shall be open for inspection, not that the test shall be made by the Inspector of Machinery. 61. That is where you get out of it. You are an Inspector under this Act? —Yes. 62. And you do not even examine or ask for these books to see if the tests have been made as required by the statute? —No, for the simple reason that if we tested every boiler we would lay the mines up for weeks at a time. 63. So that you use your discretion as to whether the will of Parliament is carried out or not? —But it is the mine-manager and not the Inspector of Machinery who has to see that the hydraulic test is applied. The Act does not say we must see it carried out. I know that tests are carried out. 64. The report-books show that the tests are not carried out every year I —They are carried out, so-many this year and so-many next year. 65. So that you do not see the law carried out?—l do not see the hydraulic tests carried out every year.

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66. You allow the mine-managers to go on their way breaking the law I —Yes. 67. What authority have you for stating the hydraulic test does not test the strength of a boiler? —You have only to go to the Australian States for that. There is also the authority of Cruickshanks, the greatest boiler expert in Australia. They all condemn the hydraulic test. 68. They do not say that it does not test the strength of a boiler ? —No. 69. But you stated to Mr. Molineaux that it does not?—lt does not test the boiler where we want it tested. 70. So that you believe, then, that the hydraulic test does test the strength of a boiler? —Yes, any pressure that is applied will do that. 71. Now, you stated that the factor of safety for new boilers varies from to 62? —Yes. 72. The law of New South Wales states that the factor of safety shall be from 1$ to 2?— Yes. 73. Supposing you have a boiler which has a working-pressure of 1001b., and you test it to 2001b. —that is, you double the working-pressure —is not that pressure equal in all directions? —Yes. 74. It is the pressure indicated on the pressure-gauge? —Yes. 75. Now, substitute steam for water, would that not be indicated on the pressure-gauge, too? -Yes. 76. In the event of a very weak boiler bursting at twice the working-pressure is it not better to burst it under the test whore there are no people about? —But they very seldom burst during the hydraulic test. It would be better to burst them that way if possible. 77. You cannot prove that those instances which you quoted were due to the hydraulic test? —We do not test the boilers by hydraulic pressure. Those instances of explosions in Great Britain I quoted were two years ago, while I think you can go back twenty years without getting a case of an explosion after a hydraulic test in New Zealand. 78. If the hydraulic test is so dangerous why is it still on the statute-book? —It will go out in time. 79. Will you explain the theory of the thing?— With age a plate changes from a fibrous to a granular state. If you take an old boiler-plate you can break it, it is so brittle. A boiler-plate under steam is more pliable than a cold plate. You can break it when cold, but if you heat it up you will not be able to do so. 80. By your ocular test how can you ascertain whether the boiler is leaking or not? —You can see at once, because corrosion starts immediately. Y"ou can see where the joints are leaking. 81. Even where there is brickwork? —We take down the brickwork. You go round all the seams, and you are bound to see any defects. There are no seams, or very few, under the brickwork. 82. As regards the engine-drivers, are you in favour of a learner practising upon men?—l am not going to express an opinion on that at all. 83. -You said, I think, that an engine-driver would be as proficient after raising rock as after raising men? —Yes. 84. And.you also said that a man who has nerves had no right to be at an engine? —Yes. 85. So that you approve of the English system that the learner should practice at the engine winding mineral? —Yes. 86. The nerve would come to him? —Yes, with practice he will gain confidence. 87. So that the fact that he was raising his fellow-men would not make him nervous?—lt would not give him nerve. It would be more the other way; it would take away his nerve, especially in a deep shaft. 88. Did you read about that Energetic Mine accident? —I was not on the Coast at the time. 89. A learner killed a man while a certificated driver was at his elbow? —Yes. 90. Would it not be better if men had a longer experience than six months? —Well, that would be a hard tiling for me to say. 91. You are aware that in Great Britain there are no certificates? —Yes. 92. And yet winding accidents do not often occur? —Yes. That is because the drivers are not young men; they are middle-aged or elderly men. *93. What is your opinion as to the necessity, for having two winding-engine drivers in case one took a fit? —No, it is not necessary at all. 94. Would two men distract one another's attention? —The tendency would be that way. Of course, where a certificated driver is teaching another man it is different: the certificated driver has his wits about him, because he is responsible if anything goes wrong. But with two certificated men there they are apt to be careless. 95. Would you be in favour of drivers submitting themselves to a medical examination frequently? —Yes, especially for heart trouble. •• . , 96. As regards practising, would you like a learner to practice on yourself or your friends? 97. So that you do not approve of learners practising upon their fellow-men at all?— No._ 98. The, Chairman.'] Do you approve of a learner getting his certificate before he has raised men at all?—I had better not submit an opinion on that point at all.

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Nelson Courthouse.—2nd Novkmbek, 1911. Neil Dickson Hood sworn and examined. (No. •'!.) 1. The Chairman.] You are the Inspector of Machinery for the Kelson District? —Yes. 2. A question lias arisen in regard to the safety of boilers —as to the necessity for the hydraulic test as laid down in the Mining Act, both in respect to the safety of boilers and as to the injury likely to be caused to a boiler by that test —that is, injury in the nature of strain; further, as to whether all boilers should be tested annually by the hydraulic test. The Commission would be glad to have any opinion on the subject which you may care to offer?— There is no doubt that the hydraulic test does strain a boiler to a point, and if the boiler is dangerous it will show it. I do not think it is necessary to test a boiler above 100 per cent, of its working-pressure unless it shows the result of wear. I believe the hydraulic test from time to time is absolutely necessary for old boilers. I have had every boiler in every mine in the district under the'hydraulic test. 8. At what pressure?—At 100 per cent, above the working-pressure—that is, twice the work-ing-pressure. 4. There is no test pressure given in the Mining Act?— Well, the Department usually tests at 100 per cent, in excess of the working-pressure. I believe it is necessary, as all plates and rivets are different under heated conditions from what they are when cold. 5. Do you take into account the factor of safety of boilers when you are fixing the testingpressure ? —No, that is calculated in the first place. 6. I know; but is not the actual factor reduced by vvear-and-tear ?—Of course, we reduce it. If a boiler shows deterioration then we reduce the pressure according to the thickness of the metal; after it is calculated out the boiler is submitted to the hydraulic test. 7. Then the actual test is different for different boilers? —Yes, 1 think twice the workingpressure is a satisfactory test for an old boiler, but not for a new one. 1 believe that an Inspector should be allowed to use his own discretion as to when a test is necessary, and for an old boiler— say, twenty-five years old—l think it should be at least every second year. 8. The Act says the test shall be made by the owners?—! test them myself. 9. Under the Mining Act it is the owner who lias to test the boiler; he has to keep a record of his test, which is to be open for your inspection? —Well, I supervise the test myself. 10. We wish to know whether you consider this annual hydraulic test referred to in the Act a necessary precaution, or is it a superfluous test?- —Well, 1 think it should be left to the Inspector's discretion as to whether it is necessary, because there is no use unduly straining a boiler. Every boiler is tested before it leaves the foundry, and all plates and material for that boiler must be according to the Board of Trade requirements. The Department refuses a boiler-plate which is not made by recognized makers, or applies a higher factor of safety. Boilers are examined from time to time during construction, and all the holes are drilled with plates in position. After bending the plates are taken down, burrs removed, and then riveted finally. It is tested by 7 hydraulic pressure. If it is to carry 1501b. it is tested to 3001b., and is kept under that'test for perhaps half an hour. It is then examined with a straight-edge to see that there is no alteration in the shape of the boiler, and so on. I consider that it would be unwise or unnecessary to test that toiler again within the next year or within the next five years, and if it showed no signs of deterioration during the next five j-ears it might be prudent to test it at one and a half times its working-pressure. . 11. That would involve pulling down the brickwork? —Yes, in some cases. 12. What loss of time does that involve? —A considerable loss of time —not only the Inspector's time, but also that of.the owner as well. Still,, where there is an old boiler I consider it is quite necessary that the hydraulic test should be applied, say 7 , once every two years, or. according to condition. 13. Do you think it would be advisable to amend the Act if the clause is retained so as to fix a standard of test —say, 50 per cent, or 100 per cent, above the working-pressure—or should that be left to the discretion of the Inspector? —Well, at present I have a locomotive which fell through a bridge under repair, and have asked'for a 50-per-cent. test in excess of the working-pressure; yet it is only about ten years old. I think that would be reasonable; but where it is an older boiler I would ask for a higher test. 14. Have you ever known boilers to burst under working-conditions after the hydraulic test? N 0) not that I can remember. Of course, you will overstrain a boiler if you go beyond a certain point. But we have a factor of safety., and after calculation any boiler should resist a test of 100 per cent, in excess of the working-pressure arrived at, and that should not be an excessive strain on a boiler of average age or guaranteed material and workmanship. If a boiler is constructed to carry 1501b., and you put a 500 lb. pressure on it, that would be excessive, but it should stand safely with 300 lb. 15. You consider a boiler's age? —Yes. I know if I were an owner I would be quite prepared to submit my boiler to a 100-per-cent. test. Every boiler of importance in every mine on the West Coast was tested in 1908 and 1909. 1 remember a boiler at the Golden Fleece which developed many weaknesses in the seams and stays, and another one at the A or B shaft at the Globe Mine. They are very old boilers —perhaps twenty or thirty years of age. A mild test might not have found out their defects. 16. What happened in those instances? Did you have the boilers removed? —They were repaired. 17. It does not necessarily mean putting the_boiler out of commission, then? —No; they might work under reduced pressure.' At the A shaft we reduced the boiler-pressure from 1201b. to 901b., and continued until it was repaired; then the pressure was restored to 1201b. 18. What do you think of the examination by hammering?— You can find a thin plate in that way.

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19. Do you think that is as good a test for finding a weak place in a boiler as the hydraulic test?—No, there are plates in certain boilers which it is impossible to test satisfactorily with a hammer. If you tind a weak place with the hammer there are perhaps others existing that you know nothing of. It is a good test if you can get well round*the boiler, but it is a difficult matter to hammer a boiler all over. The hydraulic test, on the other hand, involves a great deal of time, and should only be applied to boilers of a good age and at the discretion of the Inspector. A boiler over fifteen years of age should be tested by the hydraulic test according to its age. 20. And the extent of the pressure should also be in the discretion of the Inspector? There is no mention of that in the Act, and a suggestion has been made that the section as it stands is inoperative?— Yes, we work on proper lines, and our rule is to test to 100 per cent, above the working-pressure. 21. Supposing the section were retained and made to read that a boiler shall be tested at a certain pressure, oi such greater or less pressure as the Inspector deems necessary?—l would like you to thoroughly understand my reasons for suggesting this, as I believe the Inspector to be the most interested person as to the safety of a boiler, as he puts his name to the certificate. Therefore I think, it should be left in the hands of the Inspector, who always feels that he is responsible for the safety of the boiler and to the public. I think it would be wise to leave it in his hands. 22. Mr. Cochrane.] Yon said, I think, that you would test new boilers to 50 per cent, and old boilers to 100 per cent.? —That is, a boiler which has been under working-pressure for, say, ten years. 23. And boilers over ten years—to what percentage would you test them?—l should test each according to its condition. 24. Do you not think there is an anomaly as between the testing of a new boiler and the testing of an old one?—No, I think not. 25. Why should they not b<; tested to the same extent? —There is less chance of a new boiler having deteriorated than an old one. 26. Why test the new boiler to a less extent?— Because it. is not necessary to apply a severe test to a good boiler recently tested. 27. Then is there any necessity to test it at all? —Yes, it is more satisfactory to test it later on, and if there is a weakness developing it will find it. The test would reveal a weakness quicker than working-conditions. 28. I think you said the test should be at the discretion of the Inspector—that-there was no use straining , a boiler? —Unnecessarily. If there were a doubt about it withstanding the 100-per-cent, test I would strain it to destruction rather than risk anything. 29. I wish to ask you wherein would the strain consist?— Well, in an old boiler, if there were any wasting inside. 30. That would be deterioration, not straining. You said the test should be at the discretion of the Inspector —that there is no use straining a boiler unnecessarily. Wherein does the straining consist? —I have always applied the 100-per-cent. test with confidence. 31. You have been an Inspector of Machinery for a number of years?— About nine years. 32. Are you aware of the provision of the Mining Act on this subject?— Yes. 33. Has that been carried out? —Yes. 34. Every year?—l can testify to its being carried out in 1908 and 1909. 35. But all the years you have been an Inspector? —No, we were instructed in 1908 to apply the hydraulic test. Prior to that we had as much as we could do without this work. Now that is extra. 36. And prior to that was it carried out each year?—No, I do not think so. 37. Then some Inspectors seem not to have carried it out in late years either. You advocate the hydraulic test in all cases yearly? —No; tin- (Thief Inspector of Machinery instructed me as regards the hydraulic test. 38. Mr. Dowgray.] Do I understand you to say that a boiler unable to stand a 100-per-cent. hydraulic test would be far better out of commission altogether?— Yes, I believe that. 1 think every boiler should be equal to that strain. 39. And for boilers which would be strained with a 50-per-eent. test above working-pressure would you consider that a safe pressure? Do you consider that would strain a boiler?—l reckon that if'it did the boiler is not up to Board of Trade requirements. The Board of Trade will not have anything to do with a boiler which is strained with a 50-per-cent. test. 40. Is it possible to examine the whole of a boiler by using the hammer test inside? — No. 41. There are some sections of a boiler which you cannot gel at from inside? —Yes. 42. And the only way to thoroughly test it is by the hydraulic test?—l would not go so far as to say that. If you get inside you can sec almost every portion —there are special sight-holes for that purpose —but it is impossible to tap every part, and, what is more, you would not be satisfied with tapping, for sometimes bricks rest on the boiler and they change the sound altogether. 43. Some Cornish boilers are bricked up. Is it possible to test them as thoroughly when they are bricked up?— No. There is a boiler here in Dodson's brewery; it has been repaired; the defect could not have been found with the hammer test. I do not depend on a boiler if I have any doubt about it without the hydraulic test, and am in favour of the hydraulic test for old boilers, especially if they are, say, twenty years old. 44. The Chairman.] It has been suggested that after a certain number of years a change takes place in boilers —that the plates take on something in the nature of cast steel? —Yes, they crystallize. After, say, thirty years the plates become fragile, but these crystallized plates have been constructed before the Hoard of Trade rules were applied, and are generally of inferior

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iron. In the Old Country there is no control over boiler-making as far as I know. There might be now, but there waj3 not until recently, and any sort of material might be used. When the boilers come out here they must have the brand on them. 45. So that that change is minimized? —Yes. 46. 'What effect does the hydraulic pressure have upon material that crystallizes in that way? —None at all. Supposing there is a weak spot in a boiler which will stand the working-pressure, so long as that weak spot does not deteriorate any more there is no fear. If it does deteriorate and gets pretty nearly down to the safety-point, if you applied the hydraulic test the amount of metal that was held by the rivets would come away and the hydraulic pressure would force it out. 47. What effect would the hydraulic test have upon a crystallized plate?— The strain would not be there, but if you put it up to a fair percentage it would most likely fracture. If it crystallizes it might not be equal to more than one-third of its original strength. In one case I applied more than 100 per cent., and it went off like a shot, 'lhat convinced me that an old boiler requires a lower test; but 1 believe, if a boiler is a good one and fairly new, then the test is unnecessary. Such a boiler is good for years before the test is required. 48. That is why in such a case you advocate a low test?— Yes. 49. But after it goes a little further you would increase the pressure to test the safety of the boiler ? —Yes. 50. Mr. Dowyray.~\ Do you consider a boiler which is crystallized should be subjected to a 100-per-cent. test?— Yes, if you suspect it is crystallized. 51. If such a boiler were kept working the metal would be elastic when it is hot?— Well, there is not much elasticity in crystallized Tnetal. 52. When it is'crystallized there will still be a danger?— Yes. 53. The Chairman.] It would fracture under heat just as it would under the cold test? — Perhaps it would not be quite as likely to do so; a cold plate and ;i hot plate are two different things. I believe that if the metal is crystallized under cold conditions it is also crystallized under heated conditions, but might be more ductile under heated conditions —that is allowed for —but the strength is gone in either case. The explosion of that boiler at Kumara was due, in my opinion, to inferior metal and the fatiguing of the stays; one gave out and threw additional weight on those adjoining. . The management, in my opinion, was at fault, as those in charge should have noticed this before going too far. 54. Had that boiler been tested by the hydraulic test?—No, not to my knowledge. 55. If you had been in the habit of subjecting a crystallized boiler to the hydraulic test would you have found its weakness before? —Yes; but an Inspector would not be able to cover much ground if he had to apply the hydraulic test to every boiler. You would require an army of Inspectors. 56. Mr. Parry.] You have been an Inspector of Machinery for some time : have you anything to suggest in the way of inserting an amendment in the Mining Act with a view to minimizing accidents to men working the machinery, and so on? —Well, I feel thjit all the mechanism in connection with cages should have expert attention. I always inspect once a year to see that the grips are in good order. They are supposed to be tested by the mine-managers, but some of them have very little knowledge of metals and steel. I think the grips should be under the control of a qualified man. 57. The Chairman .] Of a machinery engineer? —Yes, such a man should certainly be responsible for them (the safety-grips) once a year. I think the Inspection of Machinery Department should be responsible for the mechanism of the cages. 58. Mr. Parry.] Have you any suggestions to make with a view to minimizing accidents in connection with machinery, batteries, and other plant outside mines? —I do not think so. 1 have looked through our Act, and it seems to provide for the efficiency and safeguarding of everything. The shafting must be equal to requirements and secure, the belts also, and gear on the poppet-heads must be in good order; and I always inspect them from time to time, also all grips. 59. Is there anything in the Machinery Act re the covering of set-screws?— Yes, anything that appears dangerous and is liable to cause an accident. 60. But do you not think it is necessary to have a provision in the Act that all set-screws and belts should be covered? —Yes, perhaps so; but it is included in " anything that is dangerous." I always refer in my reports to the set-screws and other things. 61. And you think it would be advisable to have that inserted plainly in the Act?— Yes. 62. What is your opinion of the danger to a man manipulating the belt by himself? —I believe there was a boy killed in that way in one of the engineering works in Dunedin, and some time back a man at Motueka was injured. 63. In regard to the fatal accident to Henesy at Waihi when putting a belt on by himself, do you think it is dangerous for one man to be allowed to put a belt on alone? —No, I do not think so, provided the belt is not too heavy. , 64. Not for a man to do so in a lonely place?— Well, if he is negligent it is dangerous, but there is no danger if a man is reasonably careful. I have put on thousands myself, and I do not think there is any danger in it. 65. But in the case of a man going to work by himself, say, on Sunday evening, do you not think he should have some assistance? —It would depend on the weight of the belt; he should have assistance if it were heavy—say, over 5 in. 66. And, as regards a man looking after machinery by himself, do you not think that is dangerous?—No, I think not. When I am asking for machinery to be guarded I have often pointed out that a man might faint or stumble, and it would be well to have the machinery guarded so that if he fell against it he would not fall into danger. If everything is made reasonably secure there is no danger to a man if left in charge of machinery at night-time, provided he is in good health and sound.

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67. In the event of his oiling different parts? —I realize all that. 68. The Commission has had an instance of a man attending machinery at night and looking after two or three compressors some distance away : do you think that is satisfactory? —Yes, if everything is safeguarded, and attendant in good health, there is no danger. Where there is any danger hand oiling should be disallowed, and automatic oiling insisted on. 69. In connection with the clause in the Machinery Act which says that no covering or fencing shall be removed while machinery is in motion, what do you think that means?—lt means that the covering or fencing must not be taken off, because there is danger there. 70. And that even for repairs it should not be removed unless the machinery is first stopped? ■-Yes. 71. And you would consider, then, that if any person removed that covering while the machinery was in motion he would be committing a breach of the Act ? —Yes. 72. You do not think that repairers have the right to remove the coverings while the machine) , } is in motion? —They would not be able to repair the machinery unless it was stationary. 73. There is nothing else you can suggest in regard to machinery? —I would suggest that where there is danger in oiling shafting automatic oil-feeders should be used, and I also think that safety-grips on mine-cages .should be inspected even - few weeks, perhaps, by a qualified mechanical man. 74. The Chairman.] Apart from the inspection by the mine-manager? —Yes, by a man who has some knowledge of steel springs and the action that is necessary to bring the grips into play. I do not like the spike grip. I believe the eccentric grip is the best, as it grips the guides on each side. I think a man should have mechanical knowledge; his decision then as to the efficiency of a brake would be satisfactory. 75. Mr. Cochrane.] Are there many spike grips on the cages in your district? —No. 76. Would you go as far as to say that they should not be used? —Yes, though it depends upon the nature of the timber they engage with. They might split the wood. Personally, I do not care for them at all. 77. As to the expert who you say should examine the safety-grips every few weeks, do you mean a Government expert or a man in the employ of the company? —I am not going to advise as to who should employ him, but he should be an expert —a man qualified to make the examination and put his name to the certificate. 78. The Chairman.] Is the mine-manager examined in that subject when he sits for his certificate? —I do not think so. 79. Do you think it should be a pass subject for a mine-manager? —Yes, all mine-managers should understand tensile and other strains on metals. SO. Mr. Cochrane.] Or the enginewright of the mine?— The man who puts his name to the paper. 81. The Chairman.] Will you peruse paragraph (5) (j) of the regulations recently issued by the Mines Department in regard to winding-engine drivers, which says, " No person shall interfere with the engine except the certificated winding-engine driver when men are being raised in or lowered down a shaft." Under that regulation a man is not allowed to raise or lower men until he gets his certificate. It has the effect of debarring a learner from winding men, and then when lie has gained his certificate he has to commence winding men without any other driver being present in the engine-room. As an Inspector of Machinery have you any opinion to offer as to what practice a man should have in raising and lowering men either before or after he gets his certificate? —I examine candidates for winding certificates. Thej? generally practice hauling material, or bale water from the mine, and gain confidence in that way. They wind material before they wind men. 82. Do you think they should have any experience of winding men before they get their certificates?— According to the Act they are prevented from doing so. 83. This is a recent regulation. We are inquiring into the whole question, and niay recommend that this regulation be recast ?—Yes, the} 7 should be working with an experienced driver before they get their certificates, and they do, I think. They always have a certain amount of practice at baling or hauling material; it is good practice, and they generally have a certain amount of that. 84. The question is whether they should get that practice before they gain their certificates or after? —They should get it before, as after getting their certificates they may take a position where there is no one but themselves. For instance, at the copper-mine here there was only the one driver. I generally question applicants as to whether they have had experience. 85. Mr. Fletcher.] You approve of them having that experience before they gain their certificates ?—Certainly. 86. Mr. Parry.] A question has come before the Commission as to the risk run by men in being hauled and lowered with only one man at the engine : what is your opinion on that point? —You could not put more than one man in charge of an engine, as there would be a chance of working against each other. You must give one man absolute control. 87. Has it ever occurred to you that there is a great risk being run by the men?— Yes, I think the winding-engine driver's certificate is a most important one, for a driver has great responsibility, being intrusted with the safety of so many men. 88. Mr. Dowgray.] Seeing the importance of the winding-engine driver, are you in favour of a periodical medical examination of his eyesight and hearing? —Yes, and also as regards his heart. The eyesight is not so important a matter as the hearing. I believe it would be a step in the. right direction, and it would instil confidence in the driver. In fact, I consider it is absolutely necessary, for a man deteriorates just like a machine.

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MEDICAL AND EXPERT EVIDENCE. Thames Courthouse. —17th August, 1911. George Lapeaik sworn and examined. (No. 1.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a duly qualified medical practitioner, doctor?-—1 am, practising at the TK ames. 2. Are you the hospital doctor?—No; I am in general practice. •'!. What we wish to obtain from you, doctor, is your general opinion and experience in regard to the various forms of miners' disease, its causes, prevalence, and any matters in regard to it which have come under your notice. . If you can suggest anything that would tend to minimize the extent of the disease, or to better the conditions of those who are likely to be exposed to the complaint, the Commission will be glad. How many years have you been practising at the Thames ? —Twelve. 4. Prior to that had you any experience on coal or gold fields? —No. Miners' complaint, 1 may say, as it is generally known, is a wide term, which includes various forms or diseases of the lungs. 'When we come to true miners' complaint, as we call it, it lias as a technical name "pneumoconiosis," which is due primarily to the inhalation of dust. Miners working are subject to various forms of lung-disease, not necessarily true miners' complaint. As I have already said, the complaint is caused primarily bj- the inhalation of dust, but superadded to that cause i« the absence of sunshine to a certain extent, dampness, the variations of temperature, the presence of gas prevalent in the mines from explosions from gelignite-fumes, and also to a certain extent to gases given off from decaying timbers in older portions of the mine, together with the existence of insanitary surroundings. Then, briefly, as to the prevention of the disease--because, after all, prevention is better than cure —1 would say that every means should be devised to have as little dust as possible in the workings. .There is also the sanitary arrangements to be considered, and general cleanliness here should be practised as much as possible. 5. Can you tell us, doctor, without disclosing any professional confidence, to what extent is the disease prevalent?- —Miners' complaint during the last six years has not been so prevalent as formerly, because there have been so many improvements made in the underground conditions, and also, I think, because the miner has himself been impressed with the risk he runs, and I believe the ventilation in the mines is better than it used to be. Most of the old hands who were suffering from the complaint nine or ten years ago have died off. . :.'. 6. What is the duration of the disease from the time it begins to show marked symptoms until the end? —Well,"once a man develops true miners' complaint and ceases work he simply leads an idle life, and he can live from ten to twenty years, taking a wide average, according to his age, of course. 7. That is, a man in the prime of life?— Yes, it very often shows in a man of forty years of age. 8. Have you any suggestion to offer to the Commission which a miner himself could adopt; in order to minimize his risk ?—Yes, I think so. The miner when he is working underground— several of them have admitted this to me —after working in warm air, goes to the face to get a breath of cold air, and certainly catches a chill. That gives them bronchitis, and makes them more susceptible to consumption and miners' complaint. 9. Have you any experience of, or do you know, whether miners' complaint develops into consumption proper % —By reason of the weak state of the lungs consumption is liable to follow on, but not necessarily miners' complaint. 10. Are these miners more susceptible if they come into contact with consumptive germs in others? —Yes. I might remark, that a miner who is known to suffer from true miners' complaint or some form of consumption should be prevented from going underground. 11. Do you consider that miners' complaint is transmissible from a miner to a healthy person?—No; consumption is. In my opinion true miners' complaint, or pneumoconiosis, is not infectious. 12. Mr. Cochrane.] I would like to ask you one question, doctor : after a miner has become affected with tubercle superimposed upon miners' complaint what is the probable duration of the illness—how long will it last until death follows ?-—Well, within from five to ten years. The life is much shorter. 13. Mr, Parr;/.] Do y T ou think it would be dangerous, doctor, fpr a man to leave his " face " in hot workings to come out into a cool place?—lf he.comes into a draught it is very risky. 14. The Chairman.] Do you consider the use of warm baths by miners, after coming out of the mines and before going home in their wet clothes, would tend to the improvement of their health or reduce their chance of catching a chill? —Yes, I think so : firstly, for the sake of cleanliness; and, secondly, because of the fact that a hot bath followed by a cool shower would be a safeguard. The sooner they change the better. 15. Mr. Parry.] Taking the average of the miners whom you have sounded and treated, how have you found their constitutions as compared with men of other occupations?— The average miner is a healthy man, otherwise he would never stand the work. 16. The Chairman.] Do you consider, generally, that the occupation of a miner is more wearing on his constitution than other occupations? —I look upon underground mining as being unhealthy even for a robust man. 17 And more apt to undermine a man's constitution than another occupation which requires the same expenditure of exertion? —Much more so. 18 Mr. Beed.~\ Do you think that the cases of miners' phthisis which have come under your notice have been contracted some time?— Yes. . ■ .

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19. Are you aware of any cases which have been contracted under modern conditions of mining—that is, of recent years?— Well, 1 might say that in Thames 1 have not seen during the last four years any fresh case of true miners' complaint. 20. Would the blowing of cold air on to the face of operations, rendering the temperature at that point cool, have the effect of giving the men a chill who were working intermittently between the face and the main roads trucking? —If there were a draught produced it would be liable to do so. 21. Would a draught be avoidable when carrying large volumes of air through pipes?—l should think that would be liable to cause a draught. 22. Would that draught give the men a chill who were intermittently waiting in that cool spot and then trucking in the warmer places?— Well, it would if they were in the draught for any length of time. 23. Do you approve the principle of spraying water into the dust?— Yes, I certainly do, for the reason that it lays the dust. 24. Have the men ever complained to you of the absence of bathing-appliances and sanitary accommodation at and in the mines? —I am sorry to say they have not. 25. Is it your opinion that the men take an active interest to secure for themselves the best conditions for the protection of their health ?—1 might say that I have a great respect for the bona fide miner, but I think he is rather careless about his health while mining. That is my personal experience. 26. You say miners' complaint is due in a measure to dampness also?— Yes. 27. Could dampness be avoided in these very deep mines where water issues from the rocks? —I should hardly think so. 28. Have you any knowledge of the miners contracting worm disease in this country at all? —I have had no experience of it. 29. Do you think it exists in New Zealand at all? —I have not seen it in the Thames. 30. The Chairman.'] You are the lodge doctor in the town : I suppose these lodges are largely composed of miners ?—Yes. 31. So that amongst the lodge members you would probably come into contact with most of the men who are suffering from this complaint?— Yes, that is so. 32. Do you find that the disease is diminishing?— Yes. 33. Mr. Parry.] In the course of your examination of miners have you found any of them suffering from, indigestion?— Yes, they do suffer from indigestion. 34. On the average, a good deal?—To a considerable extent. 35. What effect do you think that the working of night shifts has on a miner's constitution ?— I should say that it is not constitutionally a good thins:; it would be better if they could work a regular shift. To work night shifts is not to their advantage. 36. Mr. Reed.] Is not indigestion very common to mankind? —It is very prevalent. 37. Would you think that the miner who does arduous work is more subject to it than a man who lives a sedentary life? —I have seen a good deal of indigestion amongst miners, and I think it is the result of their being somewhat careless about the crib they take. 38. The Chairman.] Do you think that is the cause? —I have not been able to make up my mind. They generally take a piece of bread-and-jam, and for a man working underground I do not think that is what they want. 39. Mr. Parry."] Would rot the irregular hours have something to do with it?— Yes, I know a number of medical men suffer from indigestion. But with the miners I put it down a good deal to the crib. Denis Walshe sworn and examined. (No. 2.) 1. The Chairman."] Yon are a duly qualified medical practitioner? —Yes, the medical officer in charge of the Thames Hospital. 2. How long have you been in chare-e there, doctor? — A bout four years and a half. 3. It comes within, the scone of our Commission to inouire into +h<> cause of miners' nhthisis, and if you can sn've us any opiu ; ou as to the cause or extent to miners are subject to it, the conditions which give rise to it. the precautions which should be token to it. we shall be pleased to hear from you. First, as to its prevalence? —Lung-disease amongst miners is very prevalent. , . 4 Is that miners' complaint?—Tmng-d'sease when chronic would include miners complaint— that is the disease which is produced by working continually in mines. It is very prev*ler>+ hp-e. Some time ago I examined a number of men and found 16 per cent, had some chronic affection of the lungs resulting from working underground. 5 Has that percentage increased lately or decreased, or how is it affected?—l cannot say whether it is on the increase or not. That was two years ago, but I do not think the conditions have altered very much since then. 6 Have you anything to say as to the causes or ooT»tnbii+?ii<r oanses?—-I* is srenerallv accented that the principal cause of miners' comnlaint or fibroid nhthisis is the inhalation of irritating particles of dust. That is the great predisposing cause of it. _ 7 Does the miners' d'sease result in tubercular disease or consumption, or does _it render a person more liable to it? —Yes, it tends to render a man more liable to become the victim of tubercular disease, and the large majority of cases become tubercular. 8 Ts it the necessary consenuence following, or simply because of their y-reater ]i»hilrtv tobe inoculated I— The inhalation of fine irritation- dust sets up a condition m the lungs which makes them very liable to become the seat of chronic disease. 9 Do you think that miners' complaint can be transmitted from one to another I—Until1 —Until the case has become one of tuberculosis of the lungs T do not consider it transmissible.

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10. Can you suggest any steps that can be taken to guard against the disease —any steps which the miners themselves might take in regard to their habits? —With regard to precautions which the men themselves might take, the careless expectoration about the mines should certainty receive attention. There is no doubt that a man suffering from tubercular disease spitting about the mines will spread the disease amongst others. 11. As a medical man have you any opinion to offer to the Commission as to whether persons suffering from tubercular disease should be allowed to work in mines at all?— Well, unless the person can be induced to take precautions as to spitting about, 1 think that in the interests of the health of the men generally such a person should be kept out of the mines. 12. Mr. Reed.] You stated that 16 per cent, of the men examined by you had chronic lungcomplaint. How many men did you examine? —I examined from forty-five to fifty, but Ido not mean that to be taken as typical. 13. And about eight men had chronic lung-complaint? —Yes. 14. Do you know from whence those miners came —were they all residents here? —They were old miners who had been living in the Thames for many years. 15. Was the complaint of long standing or only recently contracted? —Well, the disease has such a gradual onset that one can safely say that it had been coming on for some time. 16. Have you detected any cases of very recent origin during the last three years?— The disease has such a gradual onset that it is almost impossible to say when it did begin. 17. Have you conducted post-mortems of any men who have died of this tubercular disease? —Yes. 18. Many?— No. 19. Can you tell the Commission if it is indicated upon the lungs or any other organs affected that they have inhaled quantities of dust?— That has been demonstrated. 20. Have you observed it in all those cases?—l have observed it in cases of miners' complaint. 21. Can you tell the Commission about the number? I may say that the British Metalliferous Mines Commission are finding the results of post-mortems very valuable. How many post-mortems have 3 r ou made, and what proportion have shown the presence of dust? —I could not give you any figures of importance. 22. In the interests of the men themselves would you consider it advisable that new-comers should be medically examined to see whether they have this tubercular disease in a transmissible form?— Yes; and I would go further : I would suggest periodical examinations of miners for this complaint. 23. Do you think that is the most practicable method of prevention—the exclusion of affected men from the mines?—No, I cannot say that is the most important step. 24. What would be the most important step?—To prevent as far as possible the inhalation of dust in the mines. 25. By the spraying of water, and so forth? —I suppose that is largely a question for mining engineers. 26. Would the presence of carbon-monoxide or carbon-dioxide be responsible alone for the production of this disease?— The presence of monoxide would produce a condition of low health which would make a man liable to contract it. 27. So that one remedy would be the presence of pure air? —Yes, I regard ventilation as a very important point to be considered. 28. And the gases are the least important?— Provided they are present in but small quantities. 29. What do you mean by small quantities —carbon-dioxide, for instance? — Anything below 1 per cent, has very little ill effect. 30. Anything above 1 per cent, is unfavourable? —Between 1 and IJ per cent, may be regarded as almost the normal condition. 31. Have you read Dr. Haldane's work on the subject? He is an authority on the matter?— Yes, he is regarded as a very high authority. 32. As the highest authority in Great Britain ? : —Yes, as a very high authority in Great Britain. 33. Have you read of Dr. Cadman's researches? —No. 34. As regards oxygen, what would you regard to be the minimum percentage which mineair should contain? —Not less than 18 or 19 per cent. 35. Dr. Haldane says 19 per cent.?— Does he? 36. Have you formed an idea of the minimum or maximum which you would regard as a standard for carbon-monoxide in the gases given off as the result of blasting in mines?—O'Ol per cent, does very little harm. 37. Dr. Haldane has stated 0"02 per cent, as the point at which a man's blood is affected?— In giving my reply I was thinking of a man constantly working in an atmosphere which did not contain more than O'Ol per cent. 38. Would there be any harm in o'o2 per cent.?— Working temporarily, perhaps not. 39. As regards temperatures, would you consider the dry-bulb temperature or the wet-bulb temperature as the most important?— The wet bulb. 40. Would you consider the dry-bulb temperature of 100° unhealthy for a man to work in? —I would consider it excessive. 41. What would you regard as a temperature in which a man could reasonably be asked to work in, with the air not saturated? —I should regard anything above 90° as being very uncomfortable. 42. Would you consider 80° wet bulb or 85° reasonable? —I think 80° saturated air, both bulbs reading the same. 43. But if the hours were reduced? —I should think 80° wet bulb very severe even with six hours of labour,

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44. Mr. Parry.] Do you think, doctor, that a man with low vitality, with his constitution run down with constant work, is liable to contract miners' complaint?"— A man with lowered vitality will develop a disease more readily than one in normal health, whether he is underground or above ground. 45. With a man coming from a hot temperature down below to a cold one on the surface what would be the effect upon his constitution?—Of course, he would be more liable to take a chill. 46. In the course of your experience in examining miners have you found many miners suffering from rupture?—l do not think there is an excessive number of miners, as compared with other workers in the community, suffering from rupture. 47. Mr. Dowgray.] Do you consider hot baths when leaving the mine would be beneficial for the workmen? —They would be beneficial in this way: it would remove the irritating matter in the form of dust from the body, arms, and legs, which is the occasional cause of mild bloodpoisoning. 48. The Chairman.] If baths were provided at the mines, where the men could change their clothes, would that have a beneficial effect and improve their health generally so that they would be able to resist injurious influences? —Yes. 49. Mr. Parry.] Can you tell us what effect working night shift has upon a man?— Provided he sleeps well in the daytime it does not affect him injuriously. 50. In the event of a man not being able to get his rest in the daytime?—Of course, that must prove injurious to his health.

Waihi.—29th August, 1911. Joseph Livingstone Frazer-Hubst sworn and examined. (No. 3.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a duly qualified medical practitioner?— Yes. 2. Are you in private practice? —I. am in charge of the hospital here, and in private practice as well. 3. How long have you been in practice? —About fourteen years. 4. The scope of this Commission, doctor, includes miners' disease, its prevalence, causes, remedies, and the surrounding circumstances; and if you can give us any information on the subject we shall be pleased to hear you, also as to any suggestions that you might be able to offer as to precautions which the miners could take for their own protection, and any information you can supply as to the number of deaths attributable to the disease which have come under your notice? —Well, sir, I have been in Waihi only seven months, and I have not seen a great many cases of the disease in that time. 5. Have you made a special study of the subject or read any authorities? —Not more than ordinary. 6. First of all, as to the cause of the complaint? —The causes are fairly well settled. It is the result of irritation by dust, and the gradual setting-up of slow inflammation of the fibrous tissue and loss of breathing-space in the lung, in consequence of which a man has a little less capacity in his lung than normal. 7. The cause is chiefly the dust? —Yes, the irritation caused by the dust. And there is very often also a tubercular infection. 8. Tubercular disease does not necessarily follow? —Not necessarily, but there is a weakened resistance of the lung itself, and in consequence of that a man is more than ordinarily liable to infection. 9. But miners' phthisis is not considered infectious? —No. 10. There would be no danger likely to result from having men suffering from miners' phthisis working down below?— Not so long as it is not tubercular. Until it really becomes a secondary infection there is nothing to show that a man has actually got it. The only thing that is manifest is that a man is rather short of breath; that is about the only symptom that shows itself. I have seen one or two cases of early stages of the complaint, and in each case where I found a miner suffering from shortness of breath I have advised him to cease mining. 11. Could you give us any idea of the number of men you have found suffering from it? — I have not kept any special record. lam only aware that I have seen three or four cases, and I considered it advisable in those cases that the men ought not to take further risk. 12. Will your hospital records show that?— No. 13. How many deaths have occurred —many? —Not in my time. In the early stages the men are not ill, and later they are not suitable cases for hospital treatment, so that the hospital books would not be any criterion as to the number of cases that there have been. The only cases that would come into the hospital would be where they had secondary infection. 14. Have you any suggestions to make as to remedies or precautions that miners themselves should take?—Of course, it is a question of avoiding the dust. The same disease affects men in other occupations, such as knife-grinders. Any such business is liable to give rise to pneumoconiosis. 15. Mr. Parry.] Do you think that every care should be taken where dust arises from any form of work?— Yes, with dry crushing or anything of that nature. 16. No matter how slight the dust nuisance there should be some remedy provided?— Yes, as far as practicable. 17. During your practice in Waihi, in what state of health have you found the average miner whom you have examined? —Hardly so good as I would have expected from outward appearance, because the type of man who works in a mine has to be physically fairly strong, and one does not find them constitutionally so strong as one would think from outward appearances. In one or

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two instances young well-set-up men hare come to me for life examination, and I have found their chests defective, and, knowing their occupations, I have laid the cases aside. So that there is certainly an increased risk to life and a greater liability to lung troubles, and instirance companies would assess their lives below the average. 18. In other countries have you had experience of conducting examinations of men for insurance companies? —Yes, at Home. 19. How does the time taken by workers in Waihi to recover from accidents, such as cuts and bruises, compare with that in the Old Country?— Well, my first experience with regard to accidents in Waihi was this : that I found in almost every case I underestimated the duration of a man's incapacity as compared with what I had been accustomed to regard as sufficient in other places. That was for two reasons : firstly, because the men did not seem to have the recuperative power that one might reasonably have expected from that type of man; then, a man might be well enough to return to ordinary work, but he would not be fit to go back to a hazardous occupation such as mining, where other men's lives depend on his being well. 20. Do you think a man takes longer to recover here than in the Old Country? —Of course, my work in the Old Country brought me into touch with men in outdoor occupations such as shipyards and docks, and there my impression was that the duration of an injury is shorter than it is here. 21. Have you treated many men for boils, and poisoned hands, and so forth?— Yes, that is very common here. 22. What do you attribute that to? —It is usually a sign of lowered vitality. 23. The Chairman,] Can you assign a reason for that lowered vitality?— One thing which has struck me forcibly in regard to that is the nervousness that one meets with in able-bodied men. It has occurred to me that the broken rest that a man on the shift system has to content himself with has something to do with it. They do not seem to get accustomed to a set hour for sleeping before it is changed again, and they have another sleeping-time, and thus their rest is not always so complete. I think that also affects the women in the district. It has struck me while I have been in practice here how very neurotic they are, and I have put that down to the broken rest as well as to the anxiety in regard to accidents. That is the effect these things have upon their general health. Then, of course, the working at irregular hours causes digestive troubles, as does also the frequent alteration of the meal-times. 24. Do you think that working in hot places underground would have any effect on a man to cause the nervousness you speak of?— Living in hot climates certainly has that effect upon the nervous system. When you live in the tropics, especially where the heat is dry, one always finds a great deal of nervousness amongst the people. I have lived in the East and practised there, and I know that I made that observation with regard to life on the surface, and I know that the effect of a dry, hot atmosphere is always a nervous one. 25. Do you think that working on the 12 o'clock midnight shift has any ill effect on a man's health? —Of course, night-work is always more trying than day-work. One never really properly sleeps in the daytime unless by habit one has become accustomed to it. For instance, the hospital nurses are put on shorter periods of duty* at night-time than daytime; although the work is actually supposed to be less at night, it has always been found to be more severe on them. 26. It is not natural for them to be working at that hour?— No. 27. Mr. Cochrane. \ You say that after a miner is infected with miners' phthisis tuberculosis does not necessarily follow '?—No. 28. Is it liable to do so? —Yes. 29. Very liable? —Yes, particularly liable. 30. Then you told us that working in a dry, warm atmosphere conduces to nervousness :' J would ask you what is the effect of working in a humid, warm atmosphere?— Well, the effect of living in a warm, humid atmosphere is to develop a lack of energy, lassitude, and general slackness. 31. And if a strenuous exercise is continued under such conditions what is the effect?— The result would probably be a collapse or general breakdown in health. 32. Would it affect the heart?—lt would be apt to do so. A man would be working under a greater strain upon his heart. 33. Have you had any opportunity of judging such cases here?—No, not to ascribe them to that cause. 34. Mr. Reed.] As regards the health of the people of New Zealand, have you had any experience in other parts of New Zealand? —Only in the North Island, 35. Are you aware that the medical examination conducted by the officers of the " Challenger " showed poor physique? —I have examined a great jnany young fellows in the Volunteers under the old system. It was in a country district, and the general physique was good. 36. Did you read the report of the " Challenger " officers?—l am aware that it was so made, but I did not read it— i.e., the report itself. 37. Do you agree with the finding of the recent West Australian Royal Commission to the effect that fibrosis in miners is produced by dust, and dust alone? —Yes, dust in the general acceptance of the term. 38. So that you do not think that carbon-monoxide or carbon-dioxide play any part in it? — I think it is due to a mechanical irritation. 39. Mr. Cochrane asked you as to the effect of a humid temperature : do you think, if men rested periodically when employed in a humid temperature of, say, 80° or 83° nearly saturated, that these temperatures would have a very injurious effect upon them? —My view of the effect of the humid atmosphere is that it increases the strain, and therefore, of course, rest would counteract that. A man would not be able to work the same length of time as in a more bracing atmosphere.

* This might be misunderstood. The actual number of hours of consecutive duty is not less, but the period of night duty is a shorter one. —J.L.J.11.

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40. What you say corroborates Dr. Haldane's view that men accommodate themselves to the heat by working less?—l mean that, taking the work on a time basis, men would be more exhausted working in a humid than in a dry atmosphere. 41. If a man were permitted to rest when he chose, would the effects of working in a humid atmosphere be serious? —Of course, that would depend upon the individual. 42. Supposing it were necessary to fix a standard temperature for the reduction of hours, would you suggest a wet-bulb or a dry-bulb standard? —I think a wet bulb. Of course, I have no practical knowledge of working-conditions underground, but I should judge the atmosphere by the humidity. 43. Mr. Parry A You think that a temperature of 90° on the surface is more health}' to work in than a corresponding temperature below? —Yes, certainly, the fresh air alters the circumstances. 44. In the event of the air being as fresh underground as it is on the surface, is it more healthy on the surface? —I. think the temperature then would make less difference. The temperature would not have the same effect. 45. Would it be more health} 7 to work on the surface?— Yes, J should imagine so. I know that in the operating-theatre I usually like the temperature to be about 70°. It is, of course, necessary to have it warm to prevent shock to the patients. 1 find that is fairly hot. 46. The Chairman.] What do you think would be hot enough for a man to work eight hours in? —I should think about 80°. . Of course, the longer he was working the more he would become acclimatized. 47. Mr. Reed.} 80° dry or wet?—l was thinking of it under ordinary conditions—that is, partly saturated.

Auckland (Mayor's Room, Municipal Buildings).—4th September, 1911. Wyndham Gkattan Guinness sworn and examined. (No. 4.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a duly qualified medical practitioner?— Yes, M.D., D.P.H. 2. How many years have you been in practice?— Twelve. 3. You have had some experience in Waihi 'I--Yes, five years and a half. 4. You know something of the scope of our Commission. We are empowered to inquire into the various forms of miners' diseases, their cause, prevention, and cure. We will be pleased to hear any evidence you are able to tender on the subject. Will you tell the Commission in your own way your experience in regard to the complaint known as miners' complaint, and give us the benefit of any suggestions you can offer as to the means which might be taken either by the mine-owners or the miners themselves with a view to its prevention? —Well, as far as my experience in Waihi goes, while in practice there I had under my care a considerable number of cases of miners' complaint. I may say in the first place that I make a very definite distinction between miners' complaint and consumption. The word "consumption " might not be applied to miners' disease, and in this view I am backed up by the authorities on consumption, while I myself hold the position of bacteriologist. The first cause of miners' complaint is not the tubercle bacillus: it is not the factor that produces the disease, but it is merely the secondary result which generally comes in afterwards, and may bring about, but not necessarily, the death of a sufferer from miners' disease. There is another difference which I would like to point out which applies especially to the miners in Waihi, and that is that the term " pneumoconiosis " is applied to the various forms of miners' complaint; but there is another term called " chalicosis," which is definitely applied to the fibroid disease, which is produced by the inhalation of particles of quartz. This disease differs from anthracosis, which is truly applied to the inhalation of coaldust. The term " chalicosis " is applied to " Sheffield rot," which is really due to the inhalation of small quartzparticles, and is a very common disease in France, due to the inhalation of particles from millstones. Now, to apply this to the men at Waihi : When I went down there first of all there were a number of cases of this disease extant. Some of them in some measure had the tubercle bacillus, but in other cases it was only accidentally deposited there. The secondary cause of the disease was the deposit of the small particles of dust and quartz which had been inhaled into their lungs. During my residence in Waihi I had a number of cases of this form of miners' complaint. The term of duration of this disease is put down by the authorities at from four to five years. Those are the worst cases. lam referring to battery hands and workers in the dust. A case came under my notice where one family in particular suffered very severely from the disease. Three or four of the family died with it. They had all worked for some time in the dust, but were not then so employed. They had contracted this form of the disease while working there, and then had a tubercular tendency. There was tubercle in the house, and as a result they all died from tuberculosis. You may say that the tubercle was the last finishing-touch which killed them. On the other hand, there are a number of men at the present time in Waihi, whom I used to know, who at one time worked in the battery, but who on my advice had left the work there, and who are quite sound now. They had been " dusted," as they term it. I have had some of them consulting me recently. They had developed a chronic bronchitis due to irritation of the lungs by small particles of dust. These men were not tubercular; they had no signs of consumption at all. Let me quote a case in point : There was a man visited me last Tuesday who weighed something like 16 stone 101b., who is still working in Waihi. I recalled to his mind that he was once suffering from this disease. He consulted me for influenza this time. I said, " Eight years ago you were 'dusted'; how are you now?" and he replied, "I am quite right again." That man's lungs are now sound, though eight years ago he was " dusted." There was another man who was working in Waihi, and he too got out of the battery. I saw him the other day, and his chest and lungs are absolutely sound. The early stages produce a chronic bronchitis, and if you get them away from their work in the dust they are all right. Now, as to miners working in the mine itself.

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We know from pathology that the disease contracted in the mine is totally different from that contracted by the battery hands; and here again let me state definitely that this disease is not due to the germ of consumption. In this connection I would quote from Bonney, who is the greatest authority on consumption and its germs, to back up that statement. .Ho says (page 149) : " The tubercle deposit is in no sense a casual factor in the production of pneumonokoniosis, but takes place merely as a terminal infection. The primary cause consists chiefly of an inhalation bronchitis through continuous exposure to ' palpable dust ' incident to certain occupations." So that the disease is really a trade disease produced by the trade or occupation at which a man is employed. Now we go on to the other case —that of the man in the mine. I saw a number of these cases in Wailii, some of which were afterwards fatal, and others whece the men had left their occupations and eventually recovered. The disease begins in a primary form as bronchitis, and affects the air-spaces of the lung, causing emphysema in the terminals of the bronchia and of the lung, and also ulceration. Now, in none of these stages will )'ou find the tubercle germ. It comes, however, as an accidental inoculation of a suitable soil. To draw a simile :if the soil is suitable for the particular crop the seed will grow much more quickly. In certain cases miners' disease follows, and that is also termed " pneumoconiosis." It begins as bronchitis, and is induced by three or four factors. The first factor is the lack of oxygen. Of course, you will understand lam not making any statements against the Waihi Company as regards the ventilation of the Waihi Mine; I leave that to others who know more about it. These remarks do not refer at all necessarily to the Waihi Mine, but cases of this form of miners' complaint have been observed by me among the b/.ttery hands there. Well, the first cause we take is deficient ventilation and wfent of oxygen; the ix'Lond is the carbon-dioxide produced by the combustion of candles; and the third cause is the inhalation of smoke due to the firing. Of course, there is also the fact that there is a certain amount of dust inhaled, but I want to point out specially that that has not the same effect as the battery dust. These four factors are undoubtedly the cause of the ordinary miners' complaint which is found in men working underground. You may superadd to that the fact that the miners' health is undermined by working in wet places and under insanitary conditions, which are casual factors, and which, while not acting directly on the lungs, do so indirectly by diminishing the individual's resisting-power. In summing up, then, I would say that the complaint has four causes —viz., the lack of sufficient oxygen, the inhalation of candle-smoke from combustion, the inhalation of dust, and the general factors such as living underground, continual wetting, and want of sanitation. These make for a chronic bronchitis, which goes on to emphysema and final ulceration, and death is thus caused very probably without the tubercle germ having been found in the man's lungs. The germs of tubercle are disseminated freely from one patient to another, and if a man in that state of health goes into a house where another miner is suffering from consumption the germ will find a suitable growing-place for propagation, and you will get tuberculosis superimposed on pneumoconiosis, and the resulting end will come much more quickly. There is another point in diagnosis between the true tuberculosis and pneumoconiosis, where the temperature is 101° or 102° : the patients's general externa] condition will coincide to a great extent with the condition of the lungs. If the lung is in a bad state he will look pretty bad, and then patients have morning and evening rise in temperature. In the case of miners' disease this rise in temperature is not present, but the patient looks rather Hushed. He dnigs about his work and is able to do light work for a much longer time than a man suffering from tuberculosis would do, but the complaint is getting worse all the time. There is a shortness of breath with slight exercise, as the result of the lung being attacked and getting blocked up, so that every day there is less and less of the lung capable of being used. The growth of fibrous tissue blocks up the lung, and the man can do less and less work day by day, until eventually he can but walk very slowly, and the end will come quickly, while apparently to the inexperienced eye he has been able to get through his work up to within a short time of the end. Now, gentlemen, I have put before you the different forms of miners' complaint, and you ask me what suggestions I could offer to avoid it. As regards prevention, the first form of the disease, when it is due to the actual inoculation by particles of dust, has, I understand, been to a certain extent provided for by the use of the water system. The other means of prevention I would suggest are (1) improved ventilation, (2) improved sanitation, (3) the diminution of smoke as much as possible, (4) the prevention of the miners from going back into places where smoke is hanging, and diminution of the candle-smoke. Then there is a great point which the medical profession is fighting for—l refer to the segregation of tubercular patients. I pointed out that where death ensues it is caused by the superimposition of the tubercular bacillus on top of pneumoconiosis, and that is got only by contact with another patient; so that if we can secure the segregation of tubercular patient's in the country we will not run the same risk of their communicating the true tuberculosis as at present exists when they come into contact with other patients who are rendered liable by the causes I have mentioned to contract the disease. That, gentlemen, is the case for prevention as far as I , can give it. 5. Mr. Cochrane.] You told us that the duration of fibrosis was about four or five years?— Yes, that is so. I got those figures from Dr. Bonney. 6. What happens then?- —Death. These are the causes which are due to caliosis from mineraldust inhalation, and Bonney states (page 151) : "In comparison with simple bronchitis and emphysema, or with ordinary cases of intestinal pneumonia, the cause of the disease is short, rarely lasting over four or five years." 7. And when can you say that the miner is actually infected with fibrosis from his commencing work in the dust? Can you say whether it is one year or two years, or does it take longer? —To answer your question I would put it like this: If a man comes to you with chronic bronchitis, and he shows signs of emphysema, you say to that man, " You must leave your occupation." Then he has an even-money chance as to whether he will eventually recover or whether his chronic bronchitis will run the tubercular course of four or five years. I am not prepared

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to state how long he would require to have worked in the dust to make his complaint irradicable, because the resisting-power varies in different individuals. I could not say how long a man would need to work under those conditions to contract irradicable infection. 8. I think you told us that there was a decrease in the cases at the batteries. Have you noticed any decrease or increase in the cases at the mines ?- -Well, I have not been in practice there during the last five years, but I will say that during my residence there I had more cases of pneumoconiosis —that is, miners' complaint--from the batteries than from the mines, though there were also a number of cases from the mines. 9. Are you able to say if there was any increase in the number of cases from the mines during the period of five years when you were there? —You wish me to contrast, say, the first two years and a haK with the last two years and a half. I could not do that. I think the disease was fairly evenly spread over the whole period. 10. Is there a greater tendency to tubercle if the sufferer has first contracted pneumoconiosis ? —Yes, if the sufferer has first contracted pneumoconiosis, that prepares the lung to receive the tubercle. That is generally the last stage in a man's life. 11. Then you refer to candle-smoke. Is that actual carbon-dioxide? —Yes, CO 2 . 12. Have you observed any ill effects on miners as the result of working in saturated air of high temperature?— That is put clown as another predisposing cause of the complaint. It lowers the resisting-power, and is a predisposing cause of the bronchitis, which is the first stage of pneumoconiosis. 13. What effect on the heart has working under such conditions?—lt tends to dilate the heart. 14. Does the heart not beat faster?—lt does. 15. And what happens then? —There is a thickening of the heart-muscle. First there is distention, and then accommodation will break down. 16. And the effect upon tne sufferer?— The usual trend of cardiac symptoms, which are due to overdilation of the heart, or what we call cardiac dyspnoea —that is, shortness of breath due to the heart's action. Then there would be incompetency of the valve, which would result in dropsy and swelling of the feet. Those are the symptoms following on overdilation of the heart. In connection with cases from the Waihi Mine, I have constantly met with loss of accommodation of the heart-muscle, due to working in these hot places. There is produced what is known as " bovine heart," or "ox heart," where the heart becomes overdilated. If you work in continued high temperature and a humid atmosphere the tendency of the heart would be to overdilate. 17. Then, coming back again to pneumoconiosis, I understood you to say that you are strongly of opinion that segregation is a remedy?—l am strongly of opinion that the remedy for tuberculosis would be segregation of the individuals affected with tubercle. There is another way of looking at it: put an individual affected with tubercle out in the country and he will meet with many people who are not liable to contract the disease. But what we term " segregation " has reference to a mining camp, for instance, where the population is thick, and that man must be got out of it. We must segregate him or take him out of that community. That is the opinion of the medical profession. 18. The Chairman,~\ Keep him out of the mine under all circumstances?— Yes, under all circumstances. 19. Mr. Beed.~\ Have you any opinion to offer regarding ankylostomiasis, or miners' hookworm disease? —I have not been able to detect any ankylostome there. We get it in other countries, but I have never got an ankylostome in New Zealand. 20. Are the conditions in New Zealand favourable?—No, Ido not think they are. I do not think ankylostomiasis is prevalent in New Zealand. 21. Has it ever been detected here? —T have never heard of it being detected, nor have I detected it myself. 22. Have you ever heard of its being detected in Australia? —I believe it has been detected there. It is common in Cornwall, in the south of England. 23. I understand the conditions are not favourable? —I have examined bloody stools on more than one occasion, but I have never detected an ankylostome in Waihi. 24. Your experience of Waihi terminated four or five years ago?— That is, my practice there did, but I have had a number of Waihi patients come to consult me since. 25. Are you aware that the conditions there have improved recently?-—I take your word for it. 26. You do not know of any recent cases of contraction of the disease?—No, my experience has been gained from patients who have suffered from the disease some years ago, by making examinations of the lungs to see whether there are any signs of a return of it, but during the last fifteen years I have never had any fresh case. 27. How many years ago do you think the disease was most recently contracted?— Well, I might say that I have read of cases of deaths in the Waihi Hospital in which the disease was contracted when I was there four or five years ago. 28. You know of fatal cases which contracted the disease five years ago?— Yes. 29. Many cases? —No, not many cases. 30. Regarding deficient ventilation, the Inspector of Mines has had numerous analyses made of the gases in the Waihi Mine, and I would like to ask you a few questions in respect to them. Under the most unfavourable conditions the percentage of carbon-dioxide obtained was 097 per cent, in volume. Would you consider that as injurious to man? —I can only say that, though it is underneath the maximum standard of 1 per cent., it approximates very close to it. 31. You referred to the carbon-dioxide by candles : do you consider the candles the principal cause for this gas? —-They are one of the causes. 32. Is not the exudation from rocks a much greater cause? —The combustion of the candles has been laid down by Bonney and Osier as one of the causes of the vitiated atmosphere in mines.

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33. You draw no distinction between the noxious carbon-dioxide from lights and that innoxious ground CO 2 from the rocks? —We take it merely as an indication of the impurity of the air. There are many other things more dangerous to man. We take CO 2 as an indication of impurity. Ido not mean that C - 2 is the only gas in noxious air. 34. Are you aware that Dr. Haldane laid down the carbon-dioxide standard as 1J per cent., and the minimum of oxygen as 19 per cent. ?—I take it as lower than that. 35. Do you regard 0 0025 per cent, as an extremely moderate proportion of carbon-monoxide? —I do not consider 00025 per cent, as injurious to man. 36. That is the highest proportion found in the Waihi and Thames mines under the most unfavourable conditions? —Is it? Then it is not injurious. 37. As regards oxygen, the lowest found in any of the Hauraki mines (which includes Waihi) is 20 pei- cent. : is that a healthy proportion I —Yes, that is above the minimum proportion allowed, which is 18 per cent. 38. If those proportions are correct would } 7 ou regard the ventilation of those mines as adequate? —Yes, certainly; but still there is the other fact that miners' complaint does exist, and in making my preliminary statement I simply said that deficient ventilation is one of the factors. In those proportions, however, the air is not noxious. 39. To account for this improvement in the air I may say that mechanical ventilation has been installed since you were there?—l am glad to hear it. 40. In connection with the contraction of miners' phthisis, are you aware that in many countries they are projsosing to medically examine new-comers to mines to see whether they have such disease in a transmissible form ? Would you be in favour of that course being adopted here before men are permitted to work in the mines—that is, a similar examination to that conducted for life-insurance purposes?—As a bacteriologist I would state definitely that every man suffering from chronic bronchitis, if applying for admission into a mine, should have his sputum examined. I still adhere to my point that miners' disease is not due to tubercle, and therefore, in the early stage, cannot be disseminated from man to man, but that it is only where it has the tubercle superimposed on emphysema that it becomes contagious. It is impossible to use the stethescope where a man has emphysema plus the tubercle, and that is what is dangerous. If you eliminate every case of bronchitis you would eliminate every individual who would be naturally subject to infection. 41. Do you think it would be a reasonable precaution to conduct an examination of all miners? —I think so, and any miner who was rejected should have his sputum examined by a bacteriologist as to whether he was infectiotis or not. 42. As to the heat question and the conditions under which men work the matter of contract and day labour must be taken into consideration. The men get heated in humid places, and if they require a rest they descend by ladder or ascend a winze. Now, the highest temperature we have observed is about 83° saturated, and in two or three places it has been as high as 88°, say, in the bottom of a shaft. I will take 80° saturated, and would like to ask you whether that heat alone would be injurious to a man if the ventilation were adequate to remove the noxious gases and if he were permitted to rest occasionally during working-hours, and put in, say, seven hours actual working-time?— Under all those favourable conditions I think a man could work in 80° or 82° saturated, with adequate ventilation, and being allowed a spell; but, on the other hand, it is impossible for medical evidence to lay down hard-and-fast rules when you consider that the resisting-power of all individuals is not the same. Consequently, T am not prepared to lay down a standard of 82° saturated for all individuals. 43. Anything above 80° is not common, but at the same time such conditions do occur. Dr. Haldane says that heat, and heat alone, does not injure a man, providing he can take a rest. As a matter of fact, there is not a very great amount of work done in that temperature?—Of course, if you can get good ventilation and the temperature is 82° there are men who can stand it, but, again, there are others who cannot. 44. Would you recommend compulsory bathing by the men at the mine? It is compulsory in Belgium and Westphalia, but, of course, they have there the ankylostome?—But men suffering from bronchitis would further debilitate themselves by taking cold showers. 45. I meant warm showers? — Well, that would do them no harm. 46. Mr. Parry.] Would it require a man w r ith a very strong constitution to work continually in a temperature of 80° saturated? —To a man of good constitution whose resisting-power was strong it would not be so trying, but a weak man would be very quickly knocked up. 47. Do you think it would require a strong man? —I do. 48. And do you think 80° would be excessive for a man of ordinary constitution?—l should put it down at 82? as a maximum for a strong man to do any sort of work in. 49. In your evidence you said that the dust was the cause of the disease, and that there was some difference in the result of the inhalation of the dust at the batteries and that at the mines underground? —No, I stated that the dust inhaled underground was, I think, one of the causal factors of miners' complaint, while the dust inhaled at the batteries is the one causal factor, and that the resulting conditions are different in the lungs. 50. You say that the prevention of the men going back after firing until such time as the smoke clears away is an important factor? —Yes, the smoke is one of the factors causing the bronchitis. 51. Would you recommend, then, that a stipulated time be made compulsory, and that no men be allowed to return before their time had expired?—l am not here to make a suggestion as to time; I only speak from the medical point of view, as to the necessity for preventing the men returning into the smoke. It is impossible for me to say that they should not return for five, or ten, or twenty-five minutes, or half an hour,

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52. During your experience in Waihi how did you find the average constitution of the miner? —I found that there was a large proportion of bronchial catarrh compared with the rest of the community, certainly when compared with country workers, but the physique of the men generally was good. 53. As regards the vitality what did you find? —Taking a man as an ideal who is physically sound, who has a good strong muscular constitution, his heart normal, his lungs healthy, so that he is a good specimen of the human race, I would say that the men at Waihi are about the average; but, as I have already said, there was a preponderance of bronchial catarrh. 54. I would like to ascertain the state of the men's constitution as regards their energy and vitality. Could you compare their energy and vitality to those of men in 'any other place, say Auckland? —I would not like to say that, but they play a good game of football down there. 55. The fittest generally play football? —Tho only thing that would lower their vitality or decrease their energy would be this bronchial catarrh. I found that when they suffered cuts and their hands were poisoned they soon healed. 56. How long is it since you were in Waihi? —It is six years since I gave up my permanent practice there, but I returned for about two months, and I have been in practice in Auckland for about five years. 57. Are you aware that the heat of the mines is a great deal greater now than it was five years ago?— No. 58. What is your opinion of the effect of the different shifts of work on a man's constitution? —There is no doubt that the shift system has a considerable effect on them. I found that it used to upset their digestion, and the alteration of hours of sleep induced a good deal of dyspepsia and indigestion. They complained that the night shift made them unable to eat their food. I noticed that continually. The natural result is that a man's resisting-power would be lowered. 59. You said, in answer to Mr. Heed, that you thought the conditions here were not suitable for the disease known as ankylostomiasis? —Well, we have not had any ankylostomiasis here; at least I have never detected it, and Ido not think we have it. Of course, the fact that our mines are fairly new tends to make the conditions unfavourable to the development of ankylostomiasis. 60. As regards the investigations respecting the disease in other countries, can you say if it has been found in low or high temperatures? —It is found in Cornwall, but that, I think, is the only place where it has appeared in England. Of course, in the Malay States ankylostomiasis is common, where the coolies get it very frequently. 61. In what temperatures is it more prevalent?—lt is the most prevalent in the tin-mines in those States. 62. What was the temperature there: was it not from 70° to 75°? —I am not prepared to say, but I should think it would be much higher than that. 63. The Chairman.] What effect would the temperature have upon it, do you think? —It is not so much the temperature as the general conditions of the mines and the sanitation. You get the disease in Cornwall and the Malay States, and you have there the two extremes of temperature, so that I think, per se, it may be taken that the temperature in itself is not a determining factor in the development of ankylostomiasis. 64. Mr. Parry .] That is to sa}', that the worm would not develop unless the temperature were suitable for it ? —Yes, that is a factor in the growth of disease. 65. In answer to Mr. Reed you dealt with the matter of men working in a temperature of 80° being permitted to take spells. Do you not think it would be better for the miner's health if he were to work for a stipulated number of hours and go home, rather than being permitted to take spells and work a longer shift?- 1 -Well, let us take an analogous case, as we have it in the stoke-holes on the big liners when in the tropics. Those men take a spell and go down again. I am not prepared to say that coming up and going down again is good for their health, but the fact remains that they do so. 66. Would he be more likely to take a chill if he were permitted to come up for a spell?—lf you ask me, I think it is better for a man to take an occasional spell than to work his whole shift "right through. The effect on the heart of working for any length of time in a high temperature is considerable. To take a simile, use a piece of elastic and stretch it out as far as it will go. If you hold it down any time its strength diminishes, but if you let it return soon and stretch it again the effect is not so noticeable. That applies also to the heart. If you work a man for a short time only, and allow his heart to contract down to normal, he will be able to do his work better. I would say, from a medical point of view, that it would be more healthy for a man working in a hot place to have periods of relaxation to enable him to cool down than for him to work some shorter time and work right through. It is a matter of short shifts versus spells, and I would favour the spells. 67. Mr. Cochrane.} I understand you said that ankylostomiasis had occurred in Cornwall: on that point I wish to ask you if you would favour the examination of miners at regular periods, say, every one or two years. It has been suggested that cases are in existence now in Ohinemuri. Do Y ou think it would be advisable to have a periodical examination made to determine whether the disease exists in the mines of New Zealand?—lt has been suggested, has it. There is only one way of seeing whether a man has it, and that is by looking through the microscope. 68. But do you think it would be advisable to have examinations? —I myself have made examinations of bloody stools merely out of interest, and I should certainly say that such a precaution would be a good thing. I would suggest that in cases which came into the local hospital, where the symptoms suggested the presence of the ankylostome, an examination should be made at once, and if the disease were detected it should be reported to the authorities.

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Robert Joseph English sworn and examined. (No. 5.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a duly qualified medical practitioner? —Yes. 2. You are familiar with the scope of our inquiries, which includes miners' phthisis, and if you have any information to offer on the subject of its causes, prevalence, or prevention of that disease we shall be pleased to hear you?-—I am afraid I shall not be able to assist you very much, as I am not acquainted with mining conditions in New Zealand at all; I am only acting senior medical officer at the hospital at the present time pending the arrival shortly of the new senior medical officer. If, howevet , , you have any questions to put I shall try and answer them. 3. Have you had any patients suffering from miners' phthisis at the hospital?— Since 1908 we have had two cases of miners' phthisis—that is, two patients gave their occupations as miners; about thirty-six others gave their occupations as labourers, and I have no means of knowing if some of them were also miners. i. Were they all suffering from phthisis? —Yes. 5. Can you say how these cases terminated, or the majority of them? —Some of them died, some were discharged incurable, and some were sent to the Waikato Sanatorium. 6. None were discharged cured? —No. 7. You have had no first-hand experience of the disease yourself? —No, I have never practised in a mining district. The disease which affects the coal-miners is called " anthracosis," and that which affects the stonecutters is called " silicosis." Small particles of dust are aspirated into the lungs, which become fibrotic. The tubercle bacilli affects the unhealthy lung, and the condition them becomes one of fibroid phthisis, which may last for years.

Reefton Courthouse. —20th October, 1911. Edward Henry Scott sworn and examined. (No. 6.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a duly qualified medical practitioner?— Yes. 2. You are practising in Reefton?—Yes. 3. How long have you been in practice altogether?— Seventeen years. 4. How long have you been practising in a mining community, in touch with the disease known as miners' phthisis?— Since 1895, about sixteen years. 5. We are inquiring as to what steps should be taken to guard against this disease, and will be pleased to hear of anything which has come under your observation in regard to it, both as to the frequency of it and the number of persons suffering from it here, and.also as to its cause?— Of course, it is a very big subject, and covers a lot of ground, and, though it is a matter which one cannot deal with in a few words, I will try to be as brief as possible. I understand that miners' phthisis is the subject of your inquiry, and, to begin with, we want a definition of the disease. Miners' phthisis is a term applied to a wasting disease supposed to be peculiar to miners—a wasting disease associated with lung trouble. It is a term applied very loosely by the public in general to any miners' disease. Of course, you have in pulmonary disease a chronic wasting disease of pulmonary You may ha,ve phthisis pure and simple—that is, of a real tubercular nature. Then, in distinction to that, you have miners' phthisis, which may be either tubercular—that is, ordinary consumption—or what we call fibroid phthisis, due to the inhalation of dust. There are those two simple distinctions —namely, ordinary phthisis, and fibroid phthisis or pneumoconiosis. It is those two particular complaints that we have to deal with, and it is very difficult to separate them. In many cases indeed it is almost impossible to say where the one ends and the other begins. You may, in one case, have a pure infection of tuberculosis—that is, phthisis pure and simple—and in the other case you may have an intermixed infection of tuberculosis plus fibroid phthisis, or pure fibroid disease of the lungs. Under those three headings we have a classification which covers all the wasting diseases of a pulmonary nature in miners. Of course, we all know that the continued inhalation of dust produces certain effects on the fibroid tissue of the lungs, which causes fibrosis of the lung. This is not peculiar to quartzminers. It is also common to workers in other occupations, more especially to stonemasons, who get fibrosis of the lung, even when working in stone in the open air, just as the miner does when working underground. Here in this district, owing to the migratory habits of the miners, it is very difficult to trace the sequence of events from a local standpoint, because the miner travels a great deal from one mining camp to another. Here I may say that a big supply of the miners is drawn from the Australian States. It is not necessary for me to go into the pathology of ordinai-y phthisis and miners' phthisis, which is a purely scientific subject which has been treated in many text-books, and there has been a good deal of discussion upon it also in medical papers and journals. What I came here for was to endeavour to see if we can do something to improve the general conditions of the miner. The one thing which stands staring us in the face is that the disease is partly caused by a tubercular element. Above all it is tuberculosis that we and the Government should endeavour to use all our efforts to combat, and there is no doubt that anything which injures the lung and the lung-tissue predisposes to tuberculosis. As regards particular instances in this district, the number of cases here is very small for scientific purposes, and broad conclusions drawn from individual cases are apt to be very misleading. We will take, for instance, the case of the young man going into a mine, and trace his history up. I think that is the best way to explain the disease. By the continual inhalation of dust, if he sticks to his trade all the time under conditions which are not favourable, his lung will be damaged to an extent largely proportionate to the dust and the quality of the material inhaled. That is, if he is working in very hard quartz country, the damage will be more serious than in soft rock. The injury will be largely proportionate to the dose of dust inhaled. Then he may have some

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predisposition to disease. He may have a tubercular family* history, and may thus have a weakness for tubercular infection, and as the result of such depressing influences he may become infected with tuberculosis. The course of that man's disease is pretty rapid. According to my experience 1 think we can say that the causes of miners' disease in young men are purely tubercular in origin. True pneumoconiosis, or fibrosis of the lung, is essentially a chronic disease, one which takes years in most cases to incapacitate a man, and, per se, to kill him. It is the chronicity of the disease which is its characteristic. If a miner, after getting pneumoconiosis, continues in the mine, and is careless in his habits, he is more likely to get tubercular infection than otherwise. He may, however, reach a good ripe age, and in this connection I may say that I have known instances of men who have been able to work on until they were seventy years of age. I am aware that this is in direct contradiction to statements which have been made on the point, but I know of these instances. If a man sticks to mining for fifty years, continually working underground, I think eventually he will die of fibrosis; but if he is careful the chances are that he will reach a good age —seventy, perhaps. A great deal of confusion has been caused here as the result of statements regarding miners' complaint, the industry has received such a bad name that the majority of men now* hesitate to go underground, because they think if they do so they are doomed. Well, I think that is wrong, and as the mining industry is a very important one we should endeavour to do all in our power to safeguard the men. If we can prove that it is not so dangerous, and that it is not a death-trap, then it is our duty to do so. Further, if it is a death-trap, the State should stop it to-morrow. As regards tuberculosis, much that has been written on pulmonary diseases in miners is of British origin, though they have no quartz-mining there. The nearest approach to that industry in Great Britain is the tin-mining in Cornwall, and that industry, I think, dates from the time of the Romans, or The tin-mines in Cornwall are taken as the basis for many of the conclusions found in medical articles on the subject. In Cornwall there has always been in the past great carelessness and indifference on the part of the authorities in regard to the conditions of the men working underground. Some fifty years ago it was a common thing for young boys to go into the tin-mines there and do labouring-work. Some I have known have told me that they have started work wdien eight years of age. 'Ihey have followed that occupation in Cornwall continually for years, and have then migrated to other parts. A number of deaths from the disease here in Reefton have been those of Cornish miners, who have really been damaged in their constitutions and their lungs by working underground at too early an age. Further, in Cornwall the conditions of the miner were very much more arduous than they are here. They had no cages, they had to climb ladders, and their hours were long and their pay small. Everything was against the miner from the very start. The result was that tuberculosis was and is extremely rife amongst the Cornish miners, who were the real pioneers in gold-quartz mining. They migrated to all parts of the world, and, as I have said, I have known here Cornish miners who have worked in tin-mines and quartz-mines continually for forty and fifty years, and who have eventually died of tuberculosis superimposed upon fibrosis of the lung. It has been a tubercular infection, grafted on fibrosis of the lung. My* experience here in Reefton goes to show that if a young man, say, under thirty contracts miners' complaint there need be" no hesitation in saying that it is tubercular. Pure pneumoconiosis in an old man is a rare thing in a quartz-miner. _ 6. What precautions would you recommend should be taken to guard against it?—lhere is this phase of the question to be looked at if we are going into the matter broadly and scientifically : there are twenty-four hours in the day, and a miner is only eight hours in the mine and has sixteen hours out of it. As far as I can judge all the discussions have been in regard to eight hours during which a man is underground, while nothing at all has been said about the sixteen hours that he is out of the mine. I think that has a big bearing on the question. There is no doubt at all that the better the conditions which the mine-owner makes for the miner the better it is for every one concerned. As regards the prevention of pneumoconiosis pure and simple in the mines, the important point is to keep down the dust as much as possible, and have as good ventilation with as good air as can be obtained. Then, again, as regards tuberculosis, there is no question at all in my mind that no man suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis, with expectoration, should be allowed "in the workings underground. It is bad for the man himself, and it is bad for his mates. As regards prevention of tuberculosis or consumption, I think the State authorities are doing everything they can to stamp it out, but 1 think they have missed one point, and that is the expectoration of germs in and about a mine. Then, it should be known that the germ of tuberculosis is more dangerous in a dry atmosphere than in a wot one, and when the expectoration of a tubercular patient takes place dry spores are formed which are very dangerous. Hence we have the fact that has been noticed that in dry mines there are more cases of tuberculosis or phthisis than in wet mines. That, I think, is undoubtedly owing to the fact that the bacillus of tuberculosis is more fertile in a dry atmosphere than in a wet one. Then, again, as regards keeping the dust dow-n, there is no question at all in my mind that where machines are used for boring a water spray should be provided. This should be made obligatory, both upon the miner and the mine-owner. If the owner fails to do his duty in providing the water spray he should be penalized; and, in the same way, if the miner refuses or neglects to use the water when it is provided he should be penalized" similarly —he has his mates to consider as well as himself. Another thing is that in very dusty places, such as rises, respirators should be worn by the men. They should be provided by the employers, and the men should be compelled to use them. The same provision in regard to penalty should apply as in the case of the use of the water spray. Then I want again to refer to the'fact that the miner has sixteen hours out of the twenty-four to spend outside the mine. A great deal depends upon himself, and if he looks after his health and obeys the rules of hygiene I consider that the mining industry should not be an unhealthyone provided the regulations regarding ventilation are enforced. Anything at all which tends to produce bronchitis is a source of danger to a man working in a dusty atmosphere, because

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pneumoconiosis, in the first place, is simply a form of bronchitis. The miner, when outside the mine, should do everything he can to keep his body in good health, and avoid attacks of bronchitis or colds. A man has any amount of warning of miners' complaint as a rule, because i< is essentially a chronic disease. If he gets symptoms and shortness of breath, as many of them do, lie should take a spell or throw the work up altogether, in which case he would be all right, unless he contracts tubercular infection. What I wish to insist upon is that the danger a man lias to think about is the tubercular trouble, which is the danger to life. Pneumoconiosis pure and simple is such a chronic and slow complaint that it takes years to mature. At first it is a bronchitis pure and simple—that is, a reaction of the lungs to throw off the dust—and if work under dusty conditions is continued you get the dust deposited in the lungs, which causes fibrosis, and eventually you will have a large portion of the lung tissue damaged and replaced by a fibrous tissue, which results in pure fibrosis. I consider that all quartz-mines should have a changeroom and a drying-room for the men, and where you have a steam plant installed you should have hot and cold shower-baths. The shower-bath is more hygienic than the plunge-bath, and there should be facilities for the men to thoroughly, cleanse themselves. Whether their use should be compulsory or not is not for me to say, though i think every man should be only too glad to avail himself of the opportunity, and no compulsion should be required. In regard to the care which should be taken by the miners when outside the mine, I do not wish to make any reflections upon any body of workers, but I want to say that alcoholic excess is one of the worst things for a miner, predisposing, as it does, to catarrh and indigestion, as well as to bronchitis and colds. 7. Mr. Cochrane.] You told us that respirators should be used : are you aware that there is considerable difficulty in getting the men to use them? —Yes, I have been told that they have been provided, but the men would not wear them. I think in that case the men should be penalized for their refusal. 8. Are you aware how oppressive it is to wear them under such circumstances? —Well, then, it is a question of getting more air or getting a more suitable respirator , . I know of men who have worked with wet sponges over their mouths. 9. In mines? —Yes. 10. And do you know of a respirator , you would, specially recommend? —No, we have the ordinary respirator which is used for pulmonary complaints, but I have never studied the matter sufficiently to find a suitable one for mines, though I .should think there are respirators to be obtained which would be suitable for that purpose. 11. Have you noticed any increase in fibrosis in the Reefton district since you came here?— No. We have had a number of cases of tuberculosis, but several of them are direct importations from Australia. Men come here simply to recuperate. I know of cases in which men have come and died here as the result of tuberculosis contracted in Australia. Ido not think the men here now stop long enough at mining to contract pneumoconiosis. 12. Then, are you prepared to give evidence as to the effect of high temperatures upon miners/ —That is a subject T have not gone into, but I can refer you to authorities on the subject. Of course, anything which lowers the vitality of a man will predispose him to pneumoconiosis. It depresses the resisting-power of the body to have a high temperature in the mine. I cannot say what the limit should be, because I have not gone into the subject. 13. Mr. Dowgray ,'\ You told us that dust, and dust alone, causes pneumoconiosis : what causes chalicosis or Sheffield rot I—Chalicosis1 —Chalicosis is caused by sharp-cutting dust of siliceous rock — the grinders' rot found in Sheffield steel-workers. 14. Sheffield rot is caused by cuttings of steel? —Yes. Chalicosis is also contracted by stonemasons. 15. Does the disease contracted by stonemasons come under the heading of chalicosis? —Yes. IG. I have been led to believe that pneumoconiosis is due to explosive-smoke and lack of oxygen?—l say dust, and dust alone, causes pneumoconiosis. The only thing in smoke to affect a man would be the solid particles of dust which would get into the lungs, but " pneumoconiosis " is the general term used for , all dust diseases. Dust may take many forms; you may get it in cotton, flour, coal, steel, as well as rock-dust, the result of which is chalicosis. 17. You told us that the majority of persons who have died in Reefton from pneumoconiosis have been Cornishmen? —Emphatically no. What I said was. that the Cornish miner was the pioneer in quartz-mining. 18. Mr. Parry.] When did they become victims to the disease? —I have known cases of men suffering from pneumoconiosis who have come from Australia and died in Reefton, and I havo known others to die here from tuberculosis and pneumoconiosis combined who have worked for thirty years in the Cornish mines. In old miners, as a rule, you never get a pure tubercular infection; the two things are always mixed up together. 19. Do you consider mining a healthy occupation?—lf the mining regulations as they exist to-day are conformed with and enforced it is not an unhealthy occupation. 20. And yet you said that a man is almost certain to develop fibrosis if he works in a mine fifty years ?—Yes; but how old would he be when he went into the mine ? 21. Eight?— Well, he is not allowed into the mine here until he is sixteen, and that would make him sixty-six, which is more average duration of life. 22. You also said that a man cannot contract miners' phthisis under thirty years of age? —■ No, I did not say that. If a man, for instance, went into Waihi when they had dry crushing, and got saturated, it is possible for him to contract phthisis in a week. 23. So that it is possible to contract it under thirty?— Yes, it is possible for him to contract phthisis when he is twenty. 24. You said that the first step in prevention is for the men to keep themselves fit. Do .1 understand you to mean that they should take steps not to allow themselves to become run down or have their vitality lowered? —Yes, that is of the first importance. They should keep their Health up at all costs and avoid any bronchial trouble.

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25. And anything which tended to lower their vitality would be detrimental to the health of the miners? —Yes. 26. Mr. Molinenux.] Would you be in favour of a periodical medical examination of the men?— Well, of course, that has been a burning question here for some time. My own idea is that a man should be examined in his own interest, but whether it should be made compulsory or not is another matter. Certainly, compulsion is against the instincts of nature. The men consider themselves free agents, and it is simply a question for them To decide, but J consider they would be wise to be examined if they had pulmonary symptoms. We have a law that all cases of pulmonary tuberculosis must be notified. If a man wants to be cured of tuberculosis he has to be got in the early stages. The medical examination is the thing for the men themselves, and they would be wise if they decided to have it. 27. Mr. Cochrane.] I missed that question in regard to examination of miners. Did I understand that you would be in favour of their being examined for tuberculosis or not? — Well, it is a rather delicate question. 1 said a man in his own interest should be examined. Ido not believe in the compulsory examination, though I think, from a medical point of view, the men should be examined. 28. Then you said the Government should use all efforts to combat the tubercular element : how are they to do that if the men are not to be examined?—lt is for the Commission to decide that question. 2!). But it is a medical question. How are you going to find out whether a man is tuberculous? —In early or doubtful cases by means of tuberculin. 30. Would you be in favour of engine-drivers being examined for cardiac troubles, say, once a year?— Yes, I certainly think that is necessary. William Aloysius Conlon, 8.A., M.8., CJi.M., sworn and examined. (No. 7.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—A duly qualified medical practitioner, and Medical Superintendent of the Reeftbn Hospital. 2. With how many years' practice? —Thirteen. 3. And during that time you have come into contact with the disease referred to as miners' phthisis?— Yes. 4. You have made a special study of it?—\es, more or less, on account of the number of cases with which I have had to deal. 5. We are dealing more particularly with the precautions that require to be taken to guard against the contraction of the disease, both in regard to the conditions in the mines and also as to what precautions the men themselves can take, if you will give us the benefit of your experience and research we shall be pleased to hear you I —You have it as a definitely acknowledged fact that there is such a thing as miners' disease? 6. Yes, I think there is no getting away from that? —Have you also appreciated the fact that it is an accident? It is due to the cutting of the lungs by small particles of quartz, and in that sense it is an accident. I should like to make that aspect of the case clear, and if you wish me to give proof of the accuracy of my statement I will do so. 7. We will take your opinion? —Yes, very well. 8. Will you just tell us briefly your experience, directing your attention mainly to the causes that give rise to it, and the precautions that may be taken to minimize the danger ?-—Yes. A statement which should be made in regard to this matter is that in the Registrar-General's returns he gives the rate per thousand of deaths here from pulmonary diseases as twelve, and that for, say, Canterbury as three per thousand. There is a very huge disproportion, as you will see. 9. Do you know the rate for other quartz-mining centres? —No. The rate 1 quoted for Canterburr is common to the rest of the South Island. I went to the trouble of taking out the number of men who have died here of the disease during the last twelve years and a half —first, during the ten years ending 31st December, 1900, and there were in all 524 deaths, and of that number fiftyfive men died of miners' disease. That does not include the men, women, and children dying of ordinary tuberculosis. For the two years and a half ending 18th October, 1911, there were in all 136 deaths, and of these there died of miners' disease sixteen. I know at least three men suffering from the disease who left the district and have since died. That gives a total of 660 deaths, with seventy-one deaths from miners' disease; that is, about one-tenth of the total deaths in this district are due to miners' disease. That does not include those three cases whose deaths are registered in other places. I obtained this information through the oourtesj of Mr. Smith, Clerk of the Court here. I also went to the trouble of taking out the number of quartz-miners working in New Zealand. According to the Mines Report for 1907 there were 3,740 quartz-miners in the Dominion; of these 2,594 were in the North Island and 1,1-16 in the South Island. These figures include truckers, chambermen, battery hands, and surfacemen, leaving in all probability 2,000 men breaking quartz. According to the statistics taken in Reefton twenty of these men should die every y ear twenty of that 0,740. Well, the way to prevent the disease is to stop all mining; that is the logical conclusion. Hut to mitigate the evil is another question. To deal with this matter there are certain conditions which must be observed in all underground workings. These are, firstly, abundant ventilation; secondly, the ventilation to be as much as possible in the nature of natural ventilation; thirdly, the use of sprays to allay the irritant particles of dust; and, fourthly, the use of some disinfectant, such as formalin, in the water used for spraying, which will allay the dust and prevent the growth of the organism. The natural antiseptic is sunshine; in underground works you cannot get that, and therefore you must supply some antiseptic to in a measure take its place, though I do not say it will quite fulfil the sun's office. But to destroy noxious germs it is necessary, and it may be found practicable, to employ in the spraying-water some disinfectant, such as perhaps formalin.

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10. Where mines are worked at different levels do you consider it injurious to use for spraying on one level water which has accumulated at a higher level? It passes through the ground, gathering up whatever tilth it may come into contact with, and then it is taken on the shaft and sent down in pipes to be used for spraying in lower levels 'I —That is a very unwise thing to do, because these men get so many wounds underground which are due to the water, and every scratch seems to fester and gives the man a poisoned hand. In the South African mines they have a nebulizer —a thing on the idea of a scent-sprayer. That can be done, 1 believe, with a kerosenetin full of water, and in that tin I think this antiseptic water could be used. 11. And you would advocate that water used in a spray should be pure surface-water ?—Yes, it should come from outside the mine altogether. The water in the mine is loaded with filth. 12. You say spraying with some such disinfectant as you describe would have a beneficial effect?— Yes, because of the sun's absence, and the fact that the men spit out the tubercle bacillus, which must be there in abundance. 13. You made use of the term " natural ventilation." You were not speaking of natural as against artificial ventilation? —I mean that kind of ventilation which produces a current of air sufficient to enable men to work without producing a draught. I mean the leading-in of currents of air from the surface. 14. You do not mean natural ventilation as opposed to mechanical ventilation? —No, in my sense it would be mechanical ventilation —making use of mechanical means to induce as near as possible natural ventilation. 15. What is your opinion of miners suffering from the disease being allowed into the mines? —Well, I think a man who has a disease has as much right to earn his living as I have. 16. But from, a health point of view? —That remains to be a matter for legislation. A man has a right to earn his living in his own way. 17. Irrespective of the health of the other men? —I do not see how you can debar him until you treat him as a leper or a lunatic. 18. Not necessarily. It might mean death to thousands if he is left in a mine. Why should he not be debarretl from going below, and work provided for him on the surface? —You might just close up that particular avenue of employment for which he is fitted, fdo not think you have the right to interfere with the liberty of a man. 19. What about the other men? —Well, they must put up with it until you can segregate him. 20. It may be particularly hard on one man to require him to leave his calling, but do you not think it would be harder on the others if he were kept there?—Y r ou could not do anything like that without legislation, and I do not think you would be able to legislate in that direction. 21. This is a question where in the interests of public health it may be advisable to take every care that such a man should not go into a mine? —Yes. Well, the mine-manager lias the right to discharge a man, it is true. That would overcome your difficulty. 22. I am just asking you as a medical man whether a man suffering from that disease should be prevented from going down a mine? —Well, of course, I take up the position that a man is the master of his own destiny even if he is ill. 1 frequently tell men not to do certain things, but I take no steps to coerce them to do what 1 want them to do. If a man is known to be diseased it is an easy matter for him to be " sacked." 23. What is the difference between "sacking" him and asking him to remain on top?— That is a question for the mine-managers. 24. Mr. Cochrane.] The question of respirators has come up : have you any recommendation to make for or against their use? —I think it is quite impracticable to make men wear respirators, from my knowledge of men. 25. Can you tell us if pneumoconiosis is more prevalent now than formerly?— Well, that opens up a large question, because it is essentially a slow disease. The tiling which is being reaped now was sown probably fourteen years ago. Tt takes fourteen to twenty years , to run its course. 26. Have you read the report of the South African Commission? —Yes. 27. According to that it is usually quite pronounced in five years?— But that refers to a. different country. The South African mine-owners offered a reward for the best method of spraying in mines, and I think it was won by some mining engineer in South Africa. In the Sydney sewers a man will not work for over twelve months before lie is incapacitated. In Eaglehawk, Victoria, where the mines are 4,000 ft. deep, a man rarely lives beyond the age of forty-five. A medical friend of mine there has written a good deal on the subject of miners' phthisis, and from, what 1 have read he says that men there do not last longer than forty-five years. 28. Before being incapacitated? —No, they die at that age. 29. Is their death due to tubercle superimposed on fibrosis? —Yes, always. The ages of the men whom I mentioned as dying here during the two years and a half ending October, 1911, were 49, 57, 55, 69, 61, 59, 59, 71, 54, 48, 73, 69, 62, 45, 77, and 65. The average for twelve years and a half will probably work out at 55. 30. If the compulsory medical examination of all miners were insisted on would it not greatly prevent the spread of miners' disease?- —Well, no, I do not think it would, for this reason : miners' disease is an insidious, slow business, and might deceive the most capable doctor. By any examination he cannot detect the disease. I. can bring into this room men who are looking as healthy as possible, and any doctor would give them first-class certificates for insurance, yet T know they have the disease. 31. Then, as to the natural ventilation you referred to : supposing there are two outlets, and one column of air is rarified, do you mean to advocate natural ventilation in that sense?— I do not know anything about the ventilation of mines, but what I meant to say is that you want to give a man as much ventilation as he would get in a quarry. 32. In cases of tubercle superimposed upon pneumoconiosis would you be in favour of the exclusion of all sufferers from the mines if they were suitably provided for by the Government? —

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Yes, if they were suitably provided for. I might say that these men have always been provided for. I have nothing to find fault ; with in that way. In the early days, when the mines were owned by the storekeeper or other business men in the town, every one stood by the miners who contracted the disease. And then later, with the advent of foreign capital, the officials of the companies have treated the men most kindly; but what I convey to this Commission is that that acknowledgment should be made by the State, and not by individuals or companies. 33. But from a medical point of view, leaving that aspect out of the question, what is the danger both to the man himself and to the other men?— The danger to himself is past. 34. Is it not aggravated by his constantly going down into injurious conditions?—Of course, it does not benefit the man at all to go underground, and he is a menace to his fellow-workmen. What I have contended for is the fact that the disease is an accident. You have a Workers' Compensation Act which provides for payment being made to a man if his arms are cut off, but you have no clause to deal with a case where a man has his lungs cut off. 35. Hie Chairman.] Logically, do you not think a man who is a menace to others ought not to continue to be such a menace because there is no, at any rate, statutory provision for him? You have one man who has the disease, and because there is no provision for him you multiply the risk by sending him down below? —There is an abstract right and wrong in things, and I think that a man has a right to earn his living in his own particular way. 36. Mr. Cochrane.] What is your opinion of working continually in mines under high temperatures? —Well, the only way I can judge is from results. Those results are included in those figures I have quoted. As for the degrees of temperature that men work in 1 am not in a position to discuss them. 37. Can you say anything as to humidity?— That is very detrimental. It is found in the tropics, where white people cannot work. It is heat plus moisture. 38. If a man did continue working would it have a bad effect upon his heart? —I have no experience of that. The effect I have found has Been mostly on the lungs. 39. The Chairman.] Is that produced by excessive temperatures?— Not wholly, but it would predispose a man to be ill. 40. Mr. Cochrane.] Would it not cause increased action of the heart? —Yes. 41. And what follows?—A man would get very fatigued; but T do not know that heartdisease would be contracted in that way. 42. Have you given the subject consideration in Reefton I —No. 43. And in regard to overdilation of the heart? —No, except in cases of overwork by good miners. I can only speak of my experience as gained in the consulting-room and in the houses where T have visited the men. 44. Mr. Dowgray.] What is the cause of bovine heart?— Overwork. 45. Has heat anything to do with it? —Well, I could not say as to that. 46. Is this miners' complaint very infectious in its earlier stages?—No, I would like to make it clear that there is a period when the disease is not at all infectious, and when it is about to become infectious is the time when a man is forced to cease work. 47. The Chairman,.] It is the tubercle that makes it infectious? —Yes. 48. Mr. Dowgray.] He is practically injured by working in a mine?-- Yes, as the result of having his lungs cut with the quartz, 49. So that a man may have had the disease for years and still not be infectious? —Yes, for ten or fifteen years. You might notice him a bit thick in the wind. 50. Mr. Molineaux.] At what stage is the expectoration dangerous?— That is difficult to tell. It is hard to say when miners' disease ends and tuberculosis begins. I have examined the expectoration of a man fifty-five years of age who had ceased work, and I have been unable to find any tubercle bacillus in his sputum, and yet he died of it eighteen months afterwards. 51. Mr. Parry.] Do you think the competitive system of work underground is detrimental to a man's health? —Yes, I do. Contractors are the men who suffer most. The good miners always go under quickest. 52. The Chairman.] What do you infer from that? —The more you exert yourself the more likely you are to get the disease. The men who work hard frequently go away from the district because their health is affected. A man cannot work underground and extend himself as he can on the surface. If you look through a list of the names of men who have suffered from the disease you will find they are the men who worked as contractors. 53. That say, it lowers his vitality? —Well, of course, the work uses a man up, and he runs into places without waiting for the dust to settle. He takes bigger risks.

Dunedin Courthouse. —29th September, 1911. James Pawk sworn and examined. (No. 8.) 1. The Chairmen.] What is your position?—l am Professor of Mining in the University of Otago, and Teacher of Applied Geology. 2. I think you understand the scope of the Commission's inquiries. We would like you to deal with the matter of noxious mine gases and temperatures, and their effects upon miners. If voii will give us your opinions on these questions it will be of assistance to the Commission? —Mineatmospheres may be vitiated in three ways—firstly, by the presence of noxious gases; secondly, by the deficiency of oxygen; and, thirdly, by too high a temperature in connection with humidity. The gases principally met with in mines are carburetted hydrogen (the mixture of which with atmospherio air forms fire-damp), carbonic-acid gas, carbon-monoxide, sulphuretted hydrogen,

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and, as the result of blasting, sometimes a little nitrous oxide. Now, in respect of carbonic-acid gas, commonly called "black-damp" or "choke-damp," it is a heavy gas, and consequentlyvery difficult to displace from mine-workings, especially in low- workings. It is incombustible, nor does it support combustion; it is colourless and odourless, but has a sweet taste. As it is incombustible it tends to limit the range of a fire-damp explosion. Black-damp occurs in all coals. It also results from the respiration of men and animals, and a certain proportion is given off by the air, by the burning of candles and of fuses, and in some mines there is present what is called "ground carbonic-acid gas," which is particularly plentiful in the Thames mines, more especially in the north end of the field. For a- number of years —six or seven —I had the management of a group of these mines, and consequently* gained some experience of the effects of carbonicacid gas upon the workmen. The gas issues from, the rocks as " blowers," often with great force. It issues in the bottom of the Big Pump through the water in the sump with such force as to give the appearance of boiling. In muggy weather with a low barometer it rises first into the lowlevels, then into the higher levels, and finally issues from the shafts and drives that are open to the surface. When that takes place, of course, the men have to be withdrawn from the mines. The atmosphere naturally contains o'o3 per cent, of carbonic-acid gas. When 3 to 4 per cent, of the gas is present there is a difficulty in breathing. Up to that point there is no inconvenience whatever. With 6 per cent, there is palpitation of the heart, with II per cent, unconsciousness, and with 25 percent, death. When wading about in an atmosphere of C0 3 in the Thames mines it was our practice to leave the workings when the candle went out —that is to say, when the proportion of C0 2 amounted to between 3 and 4 per cent. Black-damp causes death by asphyxia or choking, by excluding oxygen from the lungs. In my opinion air containing more than, say, 1-j per cent, of carbonic-acid gas should be considered below the standard, that opinion beingbased not only upon my own experience of the Thames mines, but also on the evidence given before the Transvaal and British Royal Commissions. Coming to carbon-monoxide, or white-damp, this gas is occluded in all coals, and is also produced by the imperfect combustion of w*aste matter in gobs, as well as being to a small extent produced by blasting. Further, it is formed in large quantities when the flame of a blast in a coal-mine is projected into an atmosphere containing coaldust, The flame acts on the dust and causes partial oxidation to C0 2 —that is, carbonmonoxide. It may also be formed by the reduction of C0 2 by carbon into CO, that only taking place when it- is passed over incandescent carbon. It unites with the blood as does oxygen, and hence excludes oxygen. It causes acute pains and loss of muscular effort, particularly in the legs. A small amount of CO in mine-air acts slowly on the blood, but after a time becomes culminative, and it is possible for a- man to walk into a mine and be unable to return. A man who is workingwill breathe more carbon-monoxide than a man at rest in a mine. The effects of CO poisoningare the same as those due to deficiency of oxygen. Over o'o3 per cent, in mine-air is injurious, 0"! per cent, causes headache, o'ls per cent, is highly dangerous, and o'2 per cent, might be fatal. Dr. Haldane states that noticeable symptoms, however, are never produced with less than o'2 per cent., since absorption ceases when the blood becomes saturated. In view of Dr. Haldane's investigations I think that the maximum permissible amount of CO in mine-air should not exceed O'Ol per cent. Then, in respect of marsh-gas, or CH 4 , this has a very' low specific gravity —not more than one-half of air—and therefore possesses a rapid rate of diffusion. It is combustible, but singularly* enough it does not support combustion- —that is to say, a lighted lamp or candle plunged into an atmosphere of pure is at once extinguished, but when mixed with certain proportions of air it forms explosive compounds. The lower limit is I of gas to 13 of air, and the higher limit is lof gas to 5| of air. The maximum explosive mixture is lof gas to 9"38 of air. It is detected in coal-mines by the small flame-cap that envelops and surrounds the flame in the lamp in a fire-damp mixture. A flame-cap lf\ in. high very often indicates an explosive condition, but when fine coaldust is present even a less light might indicate danger. The ventilation in each district of a mine should he sufficient to keep the percentage of in the return air under 1 per cent, as determined by analyses. This gas is met with frequently in coal-mines, and is occasionally met with in metalliferous mines. In the last copy of the Mining Magazine, which came to hand to-day, I found that an explosion of firedamp took place in the Simmer Deep Mine at Johannesburg, where a number of Natives and the fire-boss were injured. The gas escaped as a blower in the lower levels emanating from the shales. In respect of sulphuretted hydrogen, this is a gas that occurs occluded in coal, mainly due to the decomposition of pyrite, and it. is also found in metal-mines from the same cause. It is a colourless gas, with a characteristic evil odour It is combustilile, and when mixed with seven times its volume of air forms a very explosive mixture 1 --in fact, one of the most explosive. When present to the extent of o'o7 per cent, it causes death in an hour. It acts as an irritant poison, causing vomiting. It is well known to be present in many sewer-gases, and many fatal accidents have happened to men rashly descending sewers containing this gas. In respect of nitrous fumes, these are evolved through the incomplete combustion of nitro-glycerine compounds, and are very highly dangerous even when in minute quantities; but nitrous oxide—that is, N0 2 —is highly soluble in water, consequently- it is rarely found in mine-gases an hour after blasting —that is to say, it is absorbed so rapidly by moisture that it disappears. In any case no determinable amount of this gas should be allowed in a mine, on account of its highly poisonous character. In respect of deficiency of oxygen causing the air to become unwholesome. I would say that 35 volumes of oxygen are dissolved in 100 volumes of water, so that it is much less soluble titan carbonic acid, wdiich is dissolved in water volume for volume —that is to say, that I cubic foot of water will dissolve 1 cubic foot of carbonic-acid gas; hence a water spray is used in mines to get rid of C0 2 . A deficiency of oxygen in mine-air is a source of danger. Normal air contains 2094 per cent, of oxygen by volume. According to the experiments of Dr. Haldane, carried on by him on himself, when oxygen falls below 12 per cent, there is a difficulty in breathing; at 10 per cent, the lips

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become blue; with 6 per cent, he found palpitation of the heart. He almost killed himself in carrying out these experiments. He tested himself with atmospheres containing all these deficiencies of oxygen. On the other hand, pure oxygen may be breathed without injury to health at three times the normal pressure. According to the opinion expressed by Dr. Haldane, and confirmed by the British Mining Commission and the Transvaal Commission, air containing less than 10 per cent, of oxygen should be regarded as below the standard, but you will observe that from (lie experiments carried out by Dr. Haldane air may be breathed down to 12 per cent, without difficulty. If the quantity of oxygen or its pressure is diminished the results are injurious to the health of the man without being necessarily fatal. The air is said to be light when there is a deficiency of oxygen. It may be reduced to 15 per cent, without injuring man, but a candle will not burn in such air. Dr. Haldane in a recent lecture says that, roughly speaking, the light of a candle or lamp diminishes by 30 per cent, with a fall of lin the oxygen percentage. That in itself then becomes a valuable test for oxygen, because if a candlelight diniinshed so much as that it would be an indication of a deficiency of oxygen, or perhaps of an excess of C0 2 . Now, in respect of moisture in mine-air, in still saturated air work is practically impossible over 80° or 85° Fahr., as shown by the wet bulb. Of course, it is the wet bulb that counts more than the actual dry heat, as man may work without great discomfort in a dry temperature up to 100°. Air in motion carries off the body-heat more rapidly than still air, and hence tends to reduce the injurious effects of the heat—that is, if moist air is in motion it is possible to work at a higher temperature than if it were still. I do not think it would be advisable to fix a limit of wet-bulb temperature for Ne\v Zealand mines, as this might seriously hamper mining operations in small struggling mines. Besides, atmospheric changes are so rapid in New Zealand that it might very well happen that the temperature might be high in one shaft and low in the next. Therefore, to fix a temperature standpoint might lead to a great deal of confusion so far as the working of the shifts is concerned. Further, it generally happens that where the humidity is greatest is in rises and dead-ends, or in stopes where the number of openings to the level above is insufficient. In rises the work, of course, is only of a temporary character, and to fix a limit of temperature might hamper the operations of the mine in temporary work. For these reasons Ido not think it advisable to fix a standard in respect of humid temperatures. At the same time I think sufficient ventilation ought to be provided to ensure a moving current of air in the working-places as far as possible, and thereby keep the temperature within reasonable limits. Of course, it is well known that the total quantity of air passing into an intake of a mine might be sufficient for the men working in the mine, but it is quite possible that an insufficient quantity might be passing into certain faces through defective methods of ventilation or local obstructions preventing the air travelling in certain directions. Therefore, I do not think it would be advisable to fix a quantity standard; it would be a mistake to do so. I think a quality standard is better than a quantity one. Ido not know that there is anything else I can say about these matters. .3. You say you do not agree with a standard temperature being fixed : can you make a practical suggestion as to how you could determine the injurious conditions by a working rule? Supposing a man is working in a place he considers too hot or otherwise injurious, how would you suggest a practical test with the air could be made to determine whether the conditions were injurious for that man to work in? —For my part, I should say that if a man complained of the place I should refer the matter to the Inspector of Mines. 4. There might be some difficulty if the Inspector were not available?—l have said that if the temperature goes over 80° it is very difficult for a man to work in still saturated air. Without saying that the temperature should be fixed, with which I disagree, I think that temperature would be a very safe guide to the Inspector of Mines — i.e., if the wet bulb showed saturation at 80° with the air still he might say that the shift must be suspended or shortened. 5. Yes, but in the North objections have been raised to that method of dealing with the matter, on the ground that the Inspector is not always available when a complaint is made, and the work has either to go on or be stopped till he is available? —I think that some arrangement should be made with the management. It is to their interest, for a man works better in good air. It is a matter for mutual adjustment between the two parties. 6. But the men ask for a standard to be fixed? —I think it would be a difficult matter. 7. Have you any opinion to offer on Professor Malcolm's suggestion that the temperature of the individuals, if taken, would be a better guide than the temperature of the air?—l think that is open to this objection : at the time it was taken the men might show a high temperature, but with a rapid change in the wind there might be a correspondingly rapid change in the condition of the aii - and the temperature also. I think ,that to bind down the temperature of mines by legislation would bo against the interests of the men themselves. For instance, if we have a north-east wind blowing, the humidity is always greater. But with the wind coming from the south-west the air does not carry the same amount of humidity, and the working-conditions would improve rapidly underground with a change of wind. I think it would be a fatal objection to fixing a standard of temperature for air. 8. And does it apply to the temperature of the body? —Yes,.the one is dependent on the other. Therefore I do not think it would be practicable to use the body-temperature as a test. 9. Mr. Cochrane.] If a high temperature were maintained for one shift would you be prepared to reduce the next shift from, say, eight hours to six? —For what temperature —above 80°? 10. I am speaking generally? —The temperature and humidity are the main factors. 11. I mean with saturated air at 80°? —Yes, I believe that if the temperature rises above 80° with the air saturated it would be advisable to shorten the shifts. 12. And you do not think that would hamper mining very much? —Not more than working six-hour shifts in a wet shaft.

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13. Are you aware that a fixed standard of temperatures is provided in Queensland, Victoria, and Western Australia? —Yes. 14. And that it has not been found impracticable?—l do not know what the results have been there. 15. Do you disapprove of the present quantity standard of 100 cubic feet of air per man per minute? —Yes, Ido not think it advisable to fix a quantitj ,, standard. I should be in favour of following the English rule and say an " adequate " standard. 16. In what respect do you suggest that is an improvement?—l should substitute the word " adequate," and leave it to be maintained at the discretion of the Inspector of Mines. 17. You have been in charge of many mines? —Yes, a group of mines at the Thames. 18. Have you had any experience with electric blasting? —Yes 19. How do you compare that with blasting by means of the fuse? —I should say that electrical blasting is better in many respects than fuse blasting. 20. Would you specify the number of shots above which electricity should be used?— You can fire one shot or a number of them by electricity. 21. Yes, but with one or two the ordinary fuse is considered safe : is it with a good many? — Well, I do not know. Electricity is coming into common use. Its practical immunity from misfires is a strong recommendation. Misfires is the great source of danger with fuse firing. 22. We have heard that in some wet mines it is as subject to misfires as is fuse firing?—lhat must be due to defective manipulation. 23. Then, are you prepared to speak as to boilers? —Well, I have installed a few boilers. 24. And as to the hydraulic test provided by the Act? —Yes, they were tested by the hydraulic test. 25. Are you in favour of the hydraulic test?— Yes, I think it is reliable and a simple test. 26. Mr. Beed.] You quoted the British regulation as regards ventilation. That was established in 1872, and continued until this year. It is as follows: "An adequate amount of ventilation shall be constantly produced in every mine to dilute and render harmless inflammable and noxious gases to such an extent that all shafts, roads, levels, stables, and workings of the mine shall be in a fit state for working and passing . . . therein." Do you consider that a practical and adequate regulation for the ventilation of mines? —Yes, 1 do, most certainly. 27. And you would prefer that to the rule-of-thumb standard inserted in some of these colonial statutes ?—Yes, most certainly. 28. This proposed addition to the English regulation is in the Bill now before the House of Commons : " For the purposes of this section a place shall not be deemed to be in a fit state for working or passing therein if the air contains either less than 19 per cent, of oxygen or more than 1J per cent, of carbon-dioxide." Would you approve of that addition to the regulations?— Yes, I think that is a very fair standard to fix. 29. That means that the Inspector of Mines, supported by this test, is in a position to adjudicate as to what is adequate or inadequate ventilation. Do you think that gives him sufficient power ? —Yes. 30. Have you read the final report of the British Royal Commission on the temperature question ?—Yes. 31. It states, " On the whole we do not think any good object would be served by prescribing a limit of wet-bulb temperature." Do you agree with that? —Yes, for the reasons I have given. 32. Our Inspectors have made tests of mine-air under the most unfavourable conditions in the metal-mines—for instance, there was recently obtained at Waihi upon analysis 00025 per cent, of CO.. Q'97 per cent, of and not less than 20 per cent, of oxygen. These proportions were found respectively in different samples. Would you consider that vitiated air?—No, there is nothing present to show that that air is anything But wholesome. 33. Would you regard a mine with that air as adequately ventilated?— Yes; in fact, the men are very lucky to get such good air. 34. If no worse air is found than that would you regard the mine as well ventilated?— Yes. 35. You spoke about the impracticability of establishing a temperature standard owing to daily variations. Now, we have taken temperatures during our inspection, and I may say that at the surface of the Grand Junction Mine at Waihi there was only 1° between the wet- and drybulb readings in the shade on one day, and the next there was a difference of 11°. That would support your contention ? —Yes. 36. Under those conditions would not a standard temperature be difficult to adjust?— Yes, impracticable. 37. You have quoted Dr. Haldane : is he regarded as a high authority on the subject?— Yes, the highest authority. 38. As a test for CO 2 would you regard the candle as an adequate practical test? —Yes, it is a good practical test, because the candle shows the effect before it is dangerous to man. 39. So that the miners have in their candles a ready test? —Yes, and our practice at the Thames mines was to retreat when the candle went out. 40. It has been stated by some witnesses that accidents are more prevalent on the night shift than on the day shift: is there any logical reason for such an idea? —I do not know that my experience has pointed that way. We were just as immune from accident on the night shift as on the day shift. 41. Some witnesses have stated that falls of roof occur more frequently on the night shift than on the day shift; do you regard that idea as superstition?— Yes, purely. 42. As regards winding-engine drivers, it has been recommended to us that there should be two drivers in case one takes a fit: what do you think of that proposal? —I think it is utterly impracticable, and it would be a great handicap to small mines.

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43. Do you think another man standing alongside would be inclined to distract the driver? — Yes, by talking to him. You might just as reasonably say that the man at the wheel on an oceangoing ship should have another beside him to see that he does not have a fit and fall down. 44. In some of the mines small slope drills are being introduced, and these drills are not worked with a spray as a rule, though the law requires it: can you suggest anything that could be arranged for allaying the dust when using slope drills? —No, it is a difficult thing, except you had a separate hose, as you have with the larger drills. I have used rock-drills in the Saxon stopes, and water was carried there through a line of pipes. 45. We find that pillar-extraction in high coal-seams sometimes considerably inclined is a source of accidents. To timber these places is practically impossible owing to their height. These seams are subject to " bumps," as the miners call them. Do you know of a safe method of working them? —No, it is a difficult matter. I found that in South Belgium, Westphalia, and North France they arrange for the men to work under the protection of timber frames supporting bars or girders of iron driven forward over the working-faces. 46. So that you do not think there has been a safe method yet adopted for the extraction of high pillars? —I cannot conceive of a safe method. 47. Would you recommend that coal be left behind, which would mean a loss of coal to the company and to the State? —The coal might be extracted by a slicing method, as they do in Westphalia. There they work the lower portion of the coal as a separate seam, and then extract the upper. 48. As regards engine-drivers, it has been proposed that they should be medically examined periodically for eyesight and liability to fits: would you consider that a reasonable proposal?— Yes, I cannot see any objection to that—say, a quarterly or half-yearly examination. 49. As regards the examination of mine-managers and officials, could you offer any suggestion to get more efficient men as regards the period they should be required to be practically employed in mines?—l should be inclined to adopt the German, American, and French method, which is to compel the men to work in different positions and on different classes of work underground so as to become thoroughly au fait with all the different operations in mining. A man might have five years' experience in getting coal, but that would not qualify him to manage a mine. It is a technical knowledge as well as a practical knowledge of mining that is required to fit him to manage a mine efficiently. I find that the great coal-mines in Europe and England require men of technological skill to manage them. 50. In preference to our present system would you recommend that men should have experience in all the departments of mining underground?-—Yes, he should serve as a fire-boss, as a shiftboss, and so on. 51. Do you consider that the requirement of five years' experience underground is fair to the university student?—l think five years is too long to ask a man to put in. In Germany they only require three years, and the Germans are very thorough. In England also, according to the mining regulations, graduates of recognized mining schools are only required to work two years underground; they are exempt from one year's work. And I think it would be an encouragement to graduates in New Zealand to give them a similar concession, because, after all, the employer will take good care that he gets a qualified man. He will not employ a man simply because he is a university graduate. Our graduates leave New Zealand and get employment in charge of large coal and metal mines, and seem to be able to do very well, and I do not see why we should not give them some encouragement here. 52. As regards this standard of 150 cubic feet 6f air per minute per person employed in coalmines, is there any logical reason why there should be 150 ft. per man in the working-place? Have you any idea how such a quantity.has been arrived at?— No. Of course, the quantity that a man requires for respiration is known. The amount of air required will depend on the quantity of gas given off by the coal. Every ton of coal gives off hundreds and sometimes thousands of feet of gas, and that must always be taken into consideration. 53. So that you regard this fixed rule-of-thumb method as not being based on any scientific fact? —Yes, that is so. 54. Would you be in favour of having baths at the mine with warm water showers? —Yes, similar in equipment to those established by law in Westphalia, Belgium, and at the Courierres mines in France. The change-houses there are equipped with shower-baths. 55. And would you be in favour of latrine accommodation being provided?— Yes, some organized system should be adopted —the pan or any other system, so long as it is an organized system —rather than the happy-go-lucky method''which obtains in our mines in New Zealand. 56. I think you said you were in favour of the hydraulic test for boilers?— Yes, it is adequate, and better than the tapping test. 57. You are aware if nearly all the British oversea dominions have this test at mines?— Yes. 58. Does this fact show that it is a satisfactory test?—-Yes, most certainly, that would show that it is considered adequate. 59. The Chairman.] I want to draw your attention to the fact that in connection with the ventilation of the Deep Levels at the Thames the amount of CO 2 present was found to be 2 - 97 per cent.; that is below the standard. In th? May Queen Mine the oxygen is above the standard, but the CO 2 is o'l3, which is far below the standard. In the Alburnia Mine the oxygen is below the standard, and the CO 2 is above the standard. In the Watchman Mine the oxygen was 20 per cent, and the CO 2 l'Ol per cent., which is below the standard. When you gave it to Mr. Reed as your opinion that the mines were adequately ventilated you were basing your opinion on the data quoted to you by Mr. Reed? —Yes, it was on the data supplied by him. 60. Mr. Eeed.] In regard to the Deep Levels, would you expect to get gas there? —Yes, I would expect to find CO 3 there.

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61. When opening up ground do you not think the quantity quoted by me is a very small percentage of gas to get? —Yes, for Thames mines, where C0 2 is so prevalent. 62. And do you not think that those working-conditions are tolerably good?—Of course, it must be remembered that up to 2 per cent, it is not injurious, and it is only when the percentage reaches 3 or 4, at which the candle goes out, that you are expected to leave the mine. At the same time I think, if the standard is fixed at 1|- per cent., steps should be taken to provide a sufficient current of air. 63. The Chairman.] I want to point out that the percentages quoted to you were not the worst which had been found? —I should say that some of the mine-gas was below the standard as shown by those analyses. I based my serious opinion on the supposititious case put by Mr. Reed. 64. Mr. Cochrane.] I think you said that the time required to work underground for university students should be reduced to three years?— Yes. 65. Which should entitle them to sit for the certificate as a mine-manager under the Mining Act?— Yes. 66. How about under the Coal-mines Act? —Well, I should insist upon their working four years underground for the coal-mines certificate, and three for the metal-mines certificate. John Malcolm sworn and examined. (No. 9.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your position?— Professor of Physiology in the University of Otago. 2. I suppose you are aware of the scope of the Commission. We would like to have your opinion of the effects of mine-gases on miners, and the effect of temperatures on the constitution of men working underground? —The effect of a high temperature depends entirely upon the humidity of the surroundings. 3. I may say that a suggestion has been made to the Commission that there should be a standard temperature fixed —that is to say, when it reaches a certain height there should either be a reduction of hours or work in the place should be stopped altogether; and we are trying to arrive at a conclusion as to whether it is possible to fix a standard temperature, and whether heat or humidity alone is a sufficient reason for doing so, and, if so, what temperature should be fixed as the standard? —I think I understand the position. You have the same problem as was before the Commissions at Home and in the Transvaal. i. Yes, but subject to New Zealand conditions?— Yes. Well, the condition of humidity is of first importance in this connection, because in a dry atmosphere one can stand a temperature which is sufficient to roast meat. Blagden and Fordyce in 1775 exposed themselves to a temperature where meat was being roasted. It was about 126 centigrade, and they were able to remain in it for about a quarter of an hour while meat was being roasted. But in air which is saturated one is unable to remain if the temperature is anything approaching the temperature of the body. If saturation is complete one would be unable to remain at a temperature much over 90° Fahr. ; 984° is, of course, the average temperature of the body. I have read some of Dr. Haldane's works on this subject, and he says that work would be impossible above 90° Fahr. if the air were saturated. The humidity, of course, is determined .by the difference between the readings of the wet- and dry-bulb thermometers. You keep the one thermometer wet, the evaporation cools the bulb, and therefore you get a difference between the two bulbs. The two thermometers are held side by side. The greater the dryness of the atmosphere the greater the difference between the wet- and dry-bulb readings, and by tables one is able to tell what is the amount of saturation. If saturation is complete the wet- and dry-bulb readings will be the same. Now, if the two readings are the same and both are high,,it is obvious that a person cannot get rid of his own internal h ea t —the heat that he is producing cannot leave his body. In regard to the wet- and dry-bulb thermometers I would like to point out that the rate at which the air is moving is of very great importance also. If you have a rapid current of air you can secure your heat-loss —that is, you can continue to work even with a fairly high saturation. Even under those conditions, so long as the air is not completely saturated and is moving, then you can get rid of your heat and continue to work, whereas if the air is still a wet-bulb reading of perhaps 80° would be the maximum at which one could work. I should not like to give any opinion of my own in regard to what the wet-bulb reading should be. You can find that from Dr. Haldane's reports, to which the Commission has access. I think he suggests 80°, but Ido not think he has made a fixed standard of it, so far as I know. In regard to the effects of working after the wet-bulb reading has risen so that the temperature is moist and high, the person's internal temperature rises; instead of being 984° it may rise to 101°, or even above that. Dr. Haldane, when examining some miners in one of the Cornwall mines in a warm temperature, found that their temperature had risen to 10r5°. They stopped work and came out to cool off, and I think Dr. Haldane expressed the opinion that men should not be allowed to work if the temperature rises about that point. I gather that general impression from his writings. But this rise in temperature is different in different individuals. For instance, Dr. Haldane, doing no work —just simply standing by—suffered a considerable rise in temperature, a much higher rise than the workmen. So the question of being accustomed to the work and conditions must also come into play, and Dr. Haldane expresses the opinion in his paper that men accustomed to the work and conditions seem to be able to regulate their temperature better than a man who has not been accustomed to such a high temperature. Dr. Haldane noticed no effect till his temperature rose between 101° and 102° —I mean he felt no distinct symptoms —but above that he felt throbbing of the head and palpitation, and this rise of temperature continued after he left the mine. It rose quite considerably, and took a long time to go down to normal again. Now, I would suggest to the Commission that the most practical test as to whether a place in a mine in which men were working was properly ventilated or had a sufficient dryness is to take the temperature of ihe men, but not to go by the wet-bulb readings

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alone so much, because that must also be considered along with the amount of air passing. But if the temperature of the men were taken then the maximum figure could easily be arrived at with comparatively little research. I would not like to suggest a standard temperature, but if we could find the temperature which produces a certain pulse-rate that one would regard as too high, and then if the men were found to suffer to such an extent that their temperature and pulse rose above that standard, it may be taken that the place is being insufficiently ventilated. The taking of the men's temperature is quite simple; it can be done by the mine-manager or by the men themselves. The only point requiring care is that you leave the thermometer long enough in the mouth—say, three minutes —or rather longer if the temperature is taken in the armpit. 5. Can you give us anj 7 idea of what temperature should be regarded as being high enough to warrant action being taken? —Well, I have looked into that question. It is quite usual for the temperature to rise in myself during a walk to the extent of I°—that is, temporarily; of course, it fell very soon when one cooled off. Zuntz and other observers state that the temperatures vary; instead of being 984° they vary to from 99"5° to 100°. There are also various other authorities who say that the temperature may rise to 100° in men doing work under ordinary conditions. I should be inclined to think that if it rose to over 101"5° —that is, allowing 1|° —the place requires better ventilation; but as I have had no experience in that temperature or in that degree of humidity I only put it forward as a suggestion based upon Dr. Haldane's work and experiments. I have been down in mines and seen men working where I was astonished to find they could work. I myself was panting with the heat, but they were able to work, though that is probably to be explained by what Dr. Haldane says as to the men being accustomed to the conditions. 6. Did you take the temperature?—No, I was taking mine-gases at the time, and I put down my panting as much to the increase of CO S as to the heat. Of course, either would cause the increased rate of respiration. There is one other thing in connection with the matter of individuality and training in a mine which is worth considering. A stout man would not be so suitable for that kind of work, because he lias more difficulty in getting rid of his heat. He has a greater layer of fat for the heat to diffuse through. He would be less suitable for that kind of work, and also under those conditions should be extremely careful in regard to his diet. In hot climates men avoid fat, and miners should be just as careful. They should largely live on carbo-hydrates— that is, sugar, and starch, and proteins. 7. Mr. Cochrane.'] I think you said that men readily adapt themselves to working in high temperatures? —I did not say " readily," did I? 8. Take it. then, that they do adapt themselves : would that apply if the air were completely saturated? —No, beyond a certain point of saturation it is impossible for the body to get rid of its heat. It is a purely physical condition. 9. So that they would not then adapt themselves? —Not with a high temperature saturated with moisture. 10. Then, what occurs if they persist in working in temperatures which are too high?— Their own temperature rises and their rate of respiration increases, and it is impossible for them to exert their muscles. 11. In cases not so great as that how does it affect the heart? —It increases the heart-rate. I do not think it would affect the heart, in the popular sense, to cause heart-disease. 12. Not if persisted in? —It would be very difficult to say that. If they persisted in working when the temperature was high it is possible that the heart would be damaged, but I would not like to offer a decided opinion on the matter because I am not in practice. 13. I infer that it would take some time? —Yes, a man might get a temporary disablement of the heart—dilatation of the heart. It would not be permanent, in my opinion. 14. Then, did you say that to get suitable ventilation it is necessary to find the temperature that produced' a certain pulse-rate?— Well, you should take the temperature of the men and find that temperature which increases the pulse-rate and respiration up to a certain point. If they are increased to or beyond that point then it is dangerous to work there. 15 The Chairman.] Would that vary in different individuals?— Not very much. The temperature of individuals is practically uniform. The pulse-rate is also practically uniformabout seventy-two—and the respiratory rate is also uniform, though the rate of respiration is not a good guide, because it is more under voluntary control. The pulse-rate would be a very reliable guide to go on. . . 16 Mr Cochrane.] Can you offer a suggestion as to what increased pulse-rate would indicate a dangerous condition?— Well, I have not thought of that point. I forget what Dr. Haldane stated. [Referring to notes.] His pulse-rate when standing, when his temperature was 106°, was 138. Of course, that was only one case. To settle this matter of a fixed temperature one must take an average of a number of cases, and I think that Dr. Haldane's pulse-rate might be taken into account in determining the figure, but, personally, I should not like to lay down anyfixed law. I only throw out that suggestion of 1015. It should be made a matter of research under the conditions in New Zealand. 17 Then, as to mine-atmospheres, are you prepared to answer a question as to them I— Yes. is' Supposing that samples of air were taken from a mine, and on analysis were_ found to contain sufficient oxygen and no deleterious amounts of carbonic acid or oxide, but still miners complained of injurious effects from working in those atmospheres, how would you account for it? —Do you mean injurious effect* from breathing the atmospheres? Did you say how much the oxygen was diminished 1 . 19 Supposing there were 20 per cent, by volume of oxygen in the mine?— Well, I would be very puzzled to account for the injurious effects complained of. That reduction in volume of oxygen would probably be due to nitrogen or fire-damp. If there were no increase in the CO, I can hardly account for the air being the cause of the complaint.

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20. I did not say no increase of CO 2 —l said no injurious proportion of CO S —say, 1 per cent. J— Well, if the 1 per cent, arose from the respiration of the men I can understand it being injurious. If the 1 per cent, arose wholly from the CO 2 produced in mines then Ido not see how the effect be accounted for. So long as your air contains 20 per cent, of oxygen and only 1 per cent, of CO a due to the mine-air and not to respiration, and contains no carbon-monoxide and no fumes, I think the air would be good. 21. Might it not be rendered injurious by the presence of a small quantity of sulphuretted hydrogen?— Produced in the mine? 22. In any way—or nitrous oxides?— Well, certainly, sulphuretted hydrogen in small amounts might give rise to symptoms. It is a gas soluble in water, and in a mine with any water there would be very little of it, I should say, hardly enough to produce symptoms. _ 23. I just wish to arrive at some explanation of such a state of things giving rise to a complaint from the men?— Well, it is difficult to answer a question like that—to imagine all the things that might occur. Sulphuretted hydrogen might be the cause of it. 24. Mr. Beed.] Have you read the report of the British Royal Commission on Mines?—l have read through a great part of it. 25. Dr. Haldane was one of the Commissioners, and they presented their report in 1909. If I read some of their conclusions will you please state if you approve of them. As regards temperatures in mines the report states, " The available information seems to indicate that where the heat in a mine is excessive miners readily adapt themselves to the adverse conditions by either doing less work or by only working intermittently, with periods of rest in cooler air." Is that a reasonable conclusion to draw?— Yes. 26. They were of opinion that it was the wet-bulb temperature which should be considered when working in mines. Do you consider that a reasonable deduction?— Well, I was rather astonished that Dr. Haldane did not fix either his wet-bulb reading or his wet bulb in conjunction with the rate of movement of the air. I have thought over it, and presume that he found it very difficult to estimate the rate of movement of air, and therefore did not care to fix the wet-bulb reading. 27. As regards the velocity of air, in a mine it is not possible to produce an excessive velocity. In colliery-workings it is quite unpleasant if it exceeds 3 ft. per second : would you regard that as sufficient to dear the heat in a mine like the Waihi ?—I would not like to offer any opinion. I should go back to the temperature of the man. 28. Would that be very practicable, to regulate the matter to suit each man? It would be a matter of personal equation? —No, you would take an average of several men. 29. Our Inspectors of Mines have been in the habit of taking samples of air for analysis from what they consider the worst places in the different mines. The Inspector of Mines at Waihi took samples under the most unfavourable conditions—namely, when shovelling is begun after blasting with high explosives. In no case was there found more than 00025 per cent, of CO : would you consider that as noxious? —No. 30. Dr. Haldane states noticeable symptoms were never produced with less than o'o2 CO. The maximum that we have been able to detect at Waihi is 00025 per cent. Would you consider that air to be vitiated from a practical point of view? —No, Ido not think so. Ido not think that such a proportion of CO would produce damage to the individual. 31. Now, as regards CO 2 , under the same unfavourable conditions the maximum found in the Waihi samples by the Dominion xlnalyst was 097 per cent. : would you regard that as noxious air? —Does the mine produce CO 2 ? 32. That amount of it is given off by the rocks, men, candles, and blasting, and also by the action of sulphuric acid on the calcite? —No, I should not regard it as high. 33. As regards oxygen, the Waihi Inspector has not been able to get less than 20 per cent, in any of his samples : would you regard that as adequate?— Yes. 34. So that if those proportions were put together in one sample—CO, 00025 per cent.; CO 2 , 0"97 per cent.; and oxygen, 20 per cent. —would you regard that as vitiated air?—No; .Vhere is no evidence of vitiation there. Whether a trace of sulphuretted hydrogen was present is <ot stated. 35. In no sample that has been submitted have we been able to detect it? —Well, you have no of vitiation in that air. 36. Would you regard it as adequate ventilation if the air is not more vitiated than that? — Yes. 37. You have quoted Dr. Haldane : is he regarded as a very high authority on the subject?— Yes, he is the physiologist in Great Britain who has paid most attention to this question. 38. As regards the ventilation of mines, it is debatable as to whether there should be a quality standard or a quantity standard of air provided; our quantity standard is fixed at 100 ft. per minute per person in gold-mines and 150 ft. per person in coal-mines : do you approve of this?—l should not like to express an opinion. It would vary according to the nature of the mines. 39. There is a Coal-mines Bill before the British House of Commons which proposes to fix a standard of quality and of quantity. It states, "A place shall not be deemed to be in a fit state for working or passing therein if the air contains either less than 19 per cent, of oxygen or more than 1J per cent, of carbon-dioxide " ? —Yes, I know that. 40. Would you regard that as a practical standard for the Inspector to determine whether a mine is adequately ventilated or not?- —That is put forward on Dr. Haldane's recommendation, and it should be a very good standard; it is extremely likely to be a suitable figure. 41. Are you aware that Dr. Haldane has made some research in connection with mine-gases? —Well, he has frequently published papers on the subject, which I have read.

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_ 42. As regards black-damp, I have a recent report of his which states that "black-damp, as ordinarily met with, is simply nitrogen mixed with about 5 to 20 per cent, of carbon-dioxide "1 — Yes, he stated that before. 43. If black-damp contains more than 525 per cent, of CO 2 , do you know what specific gravity it would have? Would it not be lighter than air?— That is a question of calculation. The more CO 2 the mixture contained the greater its specific gravity would be. 44. Dr. Cadman reports that 5 - 25 per cent, of in black-damp makes it the same specific gravity as air? —Yes, that is merely a matter of mathematical demonstration. 45. The miners think all black-damp is heavier, and expect to find it on the ground?—l should agree with the mathematical demonstration. 46. You said the miners become accustomed to the heat, and therefore stand it better than the casual visitor in the mine? —Yes, that is possible. 47. Can you suggest a practical test for carbon-monoxide?—l think a mouse is the best test. It has been suggested by Dr. Haldane. It is an excellent test, and one that can be proved scientifically. 48. A mouse is affected in about one-fifteenth or one-twentieth of the time in which a man would be affected?— Yes, owing to the more rapid respiration in regard to its bulk. 49. Does not Dr. Haldane recommend a bird, because he found a mouse became accustomed to the vitiated air and gradually became less sensitive?— Yes, I could quite well believe that. I tell the students that it is a question of the size of the animal. I have no doubt, though, that a bird would also become accustomed to the gases, because a small proportion of carbon-monoxide breathed for a little time has the effect of increasing the number of red-blood corpuscles, and the same result would follow in a bird as in a mouse. 50. Are you aware of any chemical test that could be applied I —Not one that could be readily applied. 51. Are you aware of the Simonis carbon-monoxide detector? It is operated by certain chemicals and a strip of paper; it is a matter of discoloration of the prepared paper, according to the proportion of CO present?—No, Ido not know it. Is the composition of it known? 52. No, it is a patent, and the character of the materials are not known to me? —Well, a test could easily be made with atmosphere containing a small amount of CO. Daniel Black Waters sworn and examined. (No. 10.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your position? —I am a mining engineer. 2. With how many years' experience ? —About twenty-two. 3. I think you know the general scope of our investigations; we will be pleased to hear you on any matters which you may desire to place before the Commission? —Well, I have really not formed any definite ideas in connection with the objects of the Commission, because in this part of New Zealand the quartz-mines with which I have had most to do are chiefly on a small scale. I would like to say, however, that the restrictions and conditions discussed to-day in connection with temperatures, shot-firing by electricity, and so on, would harass small mines very much. Under the Mining Act as it is at present we get on very well. There is no trouble in regard to the temperatures, because they are not high. It is mostly new work, and the ventilation is practically all natural, though there are one or two instances where small fans have been installed. I find, myself, that the Inspectors of Mines generally look after this matter fairly well. If they find a mine is not satisfactorily ventilated they try to help in the matter, especially if it is a small mine. It is in the small mines where these conditions, if brought in, would work very harshly. In connection with shot-firing by electricity, there is none of it down here, and to bring in a regulation that over a certain number of shots must be fired by electricity would be a hardship on these small mines. Ido not know whether it means a certain number of shots in one working-place. 4. It means in any stope or working-face. If any man wants to fire more than the specified number of shots it must be done by electricity—that is to say, if there is any danger of the hole first lit going off before the fuses to the others can be lit then electricity should be used. Of course, with your conditions there may be no danger?—No, because there is more than one man firing. Well," I doubt very much whether it would be any safer than with the ordinary fuse. There would be as much danger through the wires as through the lighting. A man has plenty of time to light half a dozen holes and get a long way away before the explosion takes place. 5. It has been suggested that in winzes and. shafts electricity should be used for firing, but in stopes and rises ordinary fuse should be used? —Yes, there is a certain amount of reason in that, but I think many of these cases should be left to the Inspector of Mines, because the mines are so varied in size: that is the difficulty. Some of these conditions would harass the small mines very heavily. 6. Would you be in favour of more extensive powers being placed in the hands of Inspectors? —-Yes, I am prepared to trust the Inspectors with greater powers. 7. What do you think of the suggestion that the Inspector should have the power to prosecute summarily in regard to certain minor breaches of the Act if on his rounds of inspection he finds any matters unsatisfactory? At present he has to report to Wellington, and the matter filters through a number of channels before he finally gets instructions on the subject. Do you think it would be better to give the Inspector summary power to prosecute? —Provided that if he had not that power it is going to take such a long time to get the matter decided? 8. At present the Inspector has no power to prosecute at all except by authority from headquarters? —Yes, it is a matter for the Department to deal with, but I think if the Inspector were given that power it would conduce to the carrying-out of the regulations. 9. Mr. Cochrane.] In regard to this electrical shot-firing question, do I understand you are not against it for such as work in winzes? —No, I am not aware of any objection to its use there.

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10. Supposing you are firing, say, twelve shots in one face, would you prefer using electricity or fuse? —Well, I have had very little experience of electricity, but I have seen that number of shots fired by two men with fuse. 11. Do you think there would be a chance of misfires in that case?—l doubt it, because the number of misfires with fuse now is almost infinitesimal. 12. Have you any statistics on that point?— No. 13. You know the time which has to elapse before a man returns after a misfire? —Yes. li. Would you be in favour of that being reduced in quartz-mines?— No. 15. Then, as to the hydraulic test for boilers, as provided in the Act, are you in favour of that or not?-—I do not see the advantage of it. It is only a little over the steam test now being used._ I consider an external and internal examination far more important, because boilers might be thin and still stand the test. The factor of safety is so great that the boiler will stand the pressure, but by examination internally you can find whether the plates are scaling badly by boring them. 16. Mr. Fletcher.] Will you give us your opinion as to the best way of getting rid of dry dust in boring —The only way is to play water into the mouth of the hole. I know there is great difficulty in getting the men to do it, because it makes them so muddy. 17. There is no chance of using some means of air-suction?—No, I have not come across any such means. Latham Osboen Beal sworn and examined. (No. 11.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a mining engineer? —Yes. 2. With how many years' experience?—l have been practising twenty-six years. 3. Your experience has been confined to this district, has it not? —Mostly in Otago and Southland, though I have been tip as far as Waihi. 4. And it extends to both coal and gold mining? —Yes. 5. Will you tell us in your own way what it is you wish to place before the Commission?—As regards the subject of temperature, in coal-mines there is a good deal of spontaneous combustion, and at times it is necessary for the management to put men in on short shifts at the inception of a fire, and if a standard temperature were fixed it might make matters very awkward for the manager. The question of temperature should, I think, be left in the hands of the Inspector of Mines and the manager. A fire very quickly raises the temperature, and if it were fixed the manager might be unable to put men into the mine. I have seen places in the Kaitangata Mine where the temperature has been pretty high, and it has been necessary to put men in on very short shifts. 6. Is that the only objection that you can suggest to the fixing of a standard temperature?— Well, I think it might lead to trouble if -put into force in the lignite-mines. 7. Supposing for ordinary working-places under average conditions a temperature were fixed, with an exception for such cases as you mention ?—Yes, that would do. 8. Do you think a temperature could be fixed for average working-conditions with such an exception as that? —Yes, I think so. 9. And you think that would be better than fixing an average for working-conditions in every case? —Yes. And they should take all the coal down to the roof in large seams. I think it would be advisable to take the coal down to the roof, and it would then be safer than leaving a certain amount of coal overhead. By taking the coal down to the roof you know the extent of the danger. If a certain amount of head coal were left there would be danger to the miners. The coal would be more liable to fall than the roof. 10. And how would you take it down, in thick seams? —By the present system —-by timbering it, reducing the pillars, and letting it fall. Ido not know any better way than that. Of course, my experience has been that the managers as a rule are very anxious to have no accidents, and as far as I know, when pillaring, the supervision by the managers and Inspector of Mines is very good at present. I notice that the question of wide and narrow bords has been raised. Where the coal in a mine is of good quality I think the wide bord better than the narrow one. My experience has been that the narrow bords are inclined to crush a bit at the bottom and the sides come in, and if the bords are kept 12 ft., with a single prop in the centre, it enables the floor to swell. My experience is that a bord stands better wide than narrow. In dealing with the question of ventilation I think it would assist it a good deal if some regulations were made as to an exhaust fan. It is a good thing to lay in a pipe and take the impure air out of a coal-mine by an exhaust fan. I have found that method very satisfactory in improving the ventilation— much better than any other system. If a mine is a bit warm it is not much expense to lay in a galvanized-iron pipe to take cold air in and impure air out. 2,000 ft. of pipe and a small pipe and oil-engine would not cost more than ,£2OO, and the ventilation would be greatly improved. It is better to exhaust the air. 11. And better to use both exhaust and fan? —Yes, but I think the matter of ventilation should be left to the Inspector. If a standard were fixed it would not be as satisfactory as it is at present. As a rule, if a mine is not satisfactory the miners very soon commence to leave, and the management discovers what is the matter. Ido not know that I have come across a single place where the proprietors and owners were not anxious to give the men as good ventilation as possible. 12. Do you think it would be an advantage if the Inspector were given certain powers in regard to ventilation in different localities? —Yes, I think so. 13. So that if he finds any system is not giving satisfaction he should have power to insist on its being improved ?—Yes, I think he should have power to insist upon the ventilation being made good, but if he did so it might be a hardship upon a company. Still, it always pays to improve the ventilation.

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14. In regard to opening up new districts in a mine, would you consider it reasonable that before doing so the management should be required to submit to the Inspector a plan of their proposed ventilating system I—Yes,1 —Yes, it would be a good idea. 15. So that, before they go into the new workings at all, details of the proposed ventilating system should be submitted to the Inspector and approved by him before they incur any expenditure at all? —Yes, I think that would be satisfactory. I have always found that good ventilation Pays—you get so much more work out of the men. " I would also say that I believe in the use of electricity for blasting where it is intended to fire a number of shots; it is safer. Any blasting accidents which have occurred have been caused, as far as my experience goes, owing to the use of cheap or inferior gelignite, &c, or tamping too hard; it only requires very gentle pressing. Ido not know of any case where Nobel's gelignite has been blamed for an accident. I think electrical firing is much better than firing with several fuses. I might also say, in regard to the Kaitangata Mine, the ventilation with the new shaft was rather a strong point some time ago, and I know it has made a great improvement. You want the air to go in and up the shaft by the fan by the shortest route. 16. In quartz-mines which are working on different levels, what is your opinion of a system of ventilation by means of which the return air from a lower level passes up through a higher level and so on up to the surface?—lt is not a good system. The exhaust-fan system is the best. 17. No, but this is a question of vitiated air : do you think a system of ventilation should include the taking of all vitiated air right to the return airway? —Yes, it ought to be concentrated in a special airway. 18. Mr. Cochrane.'] What do you mean by saying that the air should be taken by the shortest route to the fan? —The air going into the mine should be taken by routes as short as possible, or, if it is split up into a good many routes, then it should go as direct as possible to the exhaust fan. 19. Including the air from the working-faces? —Yes. 20. Then, as to the use of electricity for shot-firing, how many shots should be the limit to be fired with a fuse, or would you have all shots fired by electricity I —l should say not more than four should be fired with the fuse. 21. Then I think you said that if a standard were fixed it would not be so good as the present system of ventilation? —Well, the present system provides for so-much air per man and so-much per horse. 22. Do you approve of that?— Yes; that is, I approve of it subject to its being under the control of the Inspector of Mines. 23. Then, as to 12 ft. bords allowing the floor to rise, supposing it were a strong floor that would not rise, what then ? —lf it were a strong floor that would not rise I do not see that anything would be gained by keeping the bords narrow. It would be better to keep them 12 ft. then. One of the chief causes of danger is keeping the bords irregular—a narrow one and then a wide one — and so on, and not. evenly distributing the pressure. 24. As to taking down head coal, do you recommend that it be taken down in all cases? —Yes, I think it is better to take it down in all cases than leave it up, because then you get a better idea of the nature of the roof. There are some parts of the Kaitangata Mine where there is a conglomerate roof which is safer than the clay roof. If the manager finds that the roof is soft he takes extra precautions to watch it. 25. Are you aware that in some mines they leave coal and bore up to see if there is sufficient coal left on? —No, I do not know of that being done. 26. Mr. Molineaux.] With regard to the inspection of boilers, do you consider that it would be an advantage for the boilers to be tested by the hydraulic test every twelve months? —Well, I think that the hydraulic test when the boilers are new is more a test of workmanship—of their tightness, as it were. 27. The Chairman.'] But the Act requires an annual hydraulic test —that is, a test of wear-and-tear and not of workmanship: do you think that is necessary? —I would sooner leave it to the Inspector of Machinery.

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BAYNE'S PATENT ADJUSTABLE MINE STRETCHER. The Bayoe's patent adjustable mine stretcher is designed for the purpose of moving the injured in cases of accident in mines. An accident occurring underground occasions relatively greater delay in the removal of the injured to the hospital than accidents on the surface, and it is to lessen this disability in underground accidents that the Bayne stretcher is provided. The ■ saving of time in serious accidents in reaching the hospital means securing to the injured the chance of recovery denied when undue delay occurs, while in handling an injured person the risk of further injury resulting from the patient being carried any distance is to be avoided. The special conditions claimed for Bayne's stretcher is that its service in moving the injured can be given and continued throughout from the place in the mine where the accident occurred till the hospital is reached. The stretcher is constructed of strong wire woven on a tubular frame to form the litter. In placing the disabled on the stretcher the head is held in a padded frame, the body in an adjustable splint, which, in cases of broken ribs or injured back, can be enlarged to prevent, pressure. The thighs are held firmly on a canvas seat, which also supports the weight of the body. The legs are in splints, which protect and hold firmly any injured part, and the feet are held fast by being strapped to the frame. While being carried vertically each part is held in position by broad leather straps, which can be made to take their proportion of weight by adjustment. In the case of injury to-the pelvis the canvas sling must be put out of use, and the straps and arm rests will carry the body. If the legs or feet are the affected parts the slings and straps are so arranged that the patient is not inconvenienced in any way by the weight. The whole is covered with strong canvas, under which a blanket is placed to keep the patient warm, and an apron is added which covers the figure and straps to the frame. The necessity for first-aid requisites is met by having attached to the stretcher a sealed box containing bandages and lint.

Bayne's Patent Adjustable Mine Stretcher.

409

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The following advantages are possessed by the stretcher :— (1.) It can be easily carried, being only 501b. weight, and can be placed in the cage in any shaft, and lowered and conveyed quickly to the part of the mine where it is required. (2.) AVhen the patient is placed upon it the rough ground does not affect the back, as the wire is strong enough to prevent pointed stones being felt. (3.) The limbs are in a natural position, and movement is prevented. (4.) It can be taken up a winze by attaching a rope to the top, or passed down travellingways from the stopes. (5.) It can be carried in a horizontal or vertical position, and, wdiere necessary to pass obstacles or falling water, on the side. (6.) It can be strapped in the cage or on a bucket to ascend the shaft, and when on the surface can be removed in a vehicle or in the ordinary horse ambulance. There is no necessity to disturb the patient until arrival at the hospital. It is recognized that the arrangements in connection with the ambulance service on miningfields* is most inadequate, and men are put to much unnecessary pain in consequence. Doctors are of opinion that more damage is frequently caused by rough handling than by the actual casualty, and many lives have been lost in consequence of not having facilities for removal of cases of accident from the workings. Time is also a great factor, and, having everything necessary at hand, delay is avoided.

EXHIBITS.

HIKURANGI MINES.—THE TEMPERATURES AND AIR—MEASUREMENTS TAKEN BY COMMISSION. The Commission inspected the undermentioned mines and found the following conditions : — Hikurangi Coal-mine. Temperature : Outside mine, in shade —wet bulb 49° Pahr., dry bulb 54° ; in mine at extreme end of main heading —wet bulb 67°, dry bulb 68°. Air-measurements : Main intake, 7,020 cubic feet per minute ; returns, 2,714 cubic feet per minute. Number of miners and others stated by manager to be fifty. Air per man entering mine, 140 cubic feet per minute.; air per man leaving mine, 54 cubic feet per minute. Northern Coal-mine. Temperature : Outside mine, in shade—wet bulb 60° Pahr., dry bulb 63°. Pillar-extraction, No. 6 section, Steel's place —wet bulb 77°, dry bulb 77°. Air completely saturated. Sample of air taken for analysis from this place. Pillar-extraction, Section No. 5, Wallace's place—wet bulb 72°, dry bulb 73°. Air-measurements taken in fan drift, 27,204 cubic feet per minute. Manager stated number of men to be fifty, and horses three, representing 544 cubic feet of air per minute per person. As regards temperature in Steel's place, no man had worked in that place for fourteen hours, or in Wallace's place for two hours previous to taking of above temperatures.

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410

Boyd Benxie, Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 1. Particulars of Quartz-mines situated in the Thames County and Borough.

Name of Mine. Date of Inspection. Where Measurement taken. Quantity of Air per Minute. Number of Men on Shift. Number of Cubic Feet per Man. Temperature. System of Ventilation. Remarks. Waiotahi 20/9/10 21/4/10 25/7/10 7/4/10 8/5/10 1/6/10 21/7/10 21/7/10 29/11/10 28/2/11 27/3/11 27/3/11 12/4/10 24/7/10 20/12/10 24/4/10 9/2/11 17/2/11 24/4/11 9/2/11 17/2/11 25/4/10 27/7/10 22/12/10 18/2/11 25/4/10 27/7/11 22/12/10 18/2/11 25/4/10 22/7/10 22/2/11 8/5/10 . 8/5/10 1/6/10 1/6/10 1/6/10 21/7/10 21/7/10 31/10/10 31/10/10 29/11/10 29/11/10 28/2/11 27/3/11 10/2/11 17/2/11 No. 6 level, main crosscut .. Nos. 5 and 6 levels No. 7 level Main crosscut face l,OOOft. cut face .. Saxon main crosscut 1,000 ft. Saxon main crosscut 1,000 ft. Saxon new reef .. No. 10 (1,000 ft.) face End 9 in. pipe at face of drive 1,000 ft. crosscut, main drive Ft. 3,544 No measurement 5 4 2 5 3 3 4 2 2 2 3 3 3 5 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 4 4 4 6 3 4 3 2 2 3 4 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 4 6 1 horse 708 Adequate 401 520 617 512 283 1,199 264 745 147 30 Air bad 2 25-8 19 29-5 25-8 55 115-5 10-5 11 15 164 io 19 142 202 163 3 173-5 423-75 126-5 158 156 312 272 313 298 117 113 146 per man 600 horse I Two shafts, natural Two shafts Cutting chamber 80° d. 22 in. pipes and fan 80° d. 82° d. Deep Levels (S.) Deep Levels Four men working below. Occidental Low levels crosscut Low level winze Deepest level winze Cambria crosscut Cambria reef, face drive ,, driving Sons of Freedom reef 2,006 1,560 1,851-8 2,051 567 2,398 528 2,235 441 90 No measurement 10 51-7 39 59 51-7 No reading 77° d. 9 in. pipes and fan 84° d. 8 in. pipes and fan 9 in. pipes and fan 22 in. pipes, blower, fan 78° d. 9 in. pipes, blower, fan 6 in. and 3 in. pipes and fan Deep Levels crosscut. Pipes being installed. Air discharged into face. Still defective. Asked to make second outlet. Ordered men out of mine. Manager fined £4 17s. Main crosscut. Air passing, l,310fi Samples mine-air taken. Manager fined £4 17s. Manager warned. Samples mine-air taken. ' Manager fined £4 17s. Thames i> 3 in. pipes and fan 10 in. bv 12 in. air-box 70° d. 68° w.-70° d. „ " Alburnia >> New Sylvia ' Watchman Waitangi May Queen Low level ,, at face .. ,, 7 in. pipe Charter level ,, end pipe Low level 1,000ft. Exchange crosscut.. 1,000 ft. south drive Nos. 5 and 6 levels 1,000ft. level (south) Exchange drive 1,000 ft. Exchange reef ' '. 1,000 ft. south drive No. 10 (1,000ft.) face pipe No. 10 N.W. drive No. 10 (1,000 ft.) face pipe .. | 110 231 21 21-11 61 401 and 256 No reading 61-6 426 810 490 347 No measurement 1,695 253-9 316 313 936 544 626 596 234 226-8 Conditions fair 1,625 80° d. 75° w.-76° d. None 67° d. 9 in. pipes and fan 7 in. pipes and fan 66° w.-68° d. 8 in. pipes, natural 9 in. pipes 7 in. pipes 66° w.— 68° d. 8 in. pipes, furnace 10 in. pipes, fan 10 in. pipes, fan 7 in. pipes, fan 85° d. 9 in. pipe, blast 82° d. 9 in. pipe, blast .. 85° d. 84° d. 8 in. pipe, blast .. 88° d. „ 86° d. 14 in. pipe, blast 88° d. 8 in. pipe, blast 84° d. 9 in. pipe, blast 88° d. 88° d. 9 in. pipe, blast .. ,.. 2 shafts, natural.. 2 openings, natural Improvement promised. Manager fined £4 17s. Manager warned. First-class conditions. First-class conditions. >> Air good and fresh. .. • ,, S.W. crosscut „ N.E. crosscut Deep Levels crosscut. « Victoria Moanataiari T. N.E. crosscut, 7 in. pipe 1,000 ft. N. crosscut No. 2 level Main tunnel at door Air discharged into face.

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EXHIBIT No. 2. Analyses of Air in some of the Mines in the Thames County and Borough.

Boyd Bennib, Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 3. Air-measurements taken at the Thames Goldfields (Thames Deep Levels), by Frank Reed.

Boyd Bennie, Inspector of Mines.

* Outside shade temperature.

411

Analyses. Mine. Date. Locality in Mine. Remarks. O. N. CO 2 . I CO. )eep Levels [ay Queen 'liames iburnia Watchman Few Sylvia 9/8/10 9/8/10 17/2/11 18/2/11 17/2/11 18/2/11 Main crosscut 1,000 ft. crosscut.. Cambria reef Sons of Freedom. . Charter level Low level 20-26 .. 2-97 .. 21-03 .. 0-13 .. 18-65 .. 1-79 .. 18-17 .. 1-95 .. 2000 .. 1-01 .. (Bottle broke) Ordered men out of mine. Manager prosecuted. J? 5) t>

Number of Men per Shift. Quantit circulatin; Feet per y of Air r in Cubic Minute. Tempi Deg. erature, Fahr. Name of Mine. Date. Locality where Measurement taken. Total. Per Man underground. Wet. Dry. lay Queen ») * • 12/8/11 12/8/11 12/8/11 12/8/11 747 ft. level, return 1,000 ft. face, south crosscut Exchange reef level 1,000 ft. crosscut face, 730 ft. from shaft 1,000 ft. crosscut, end of airpipe 6 2 8,140 339 1,356 169 83-5 82-0 80-0 84-5 82-0 80-0 >> * * Iaxon >> • • 12/8/11 4 1,695 424 76-0 51-0* 76-0 51-0 : Name of Mine. lystem of sntilation. Number of Samples taken. Remarks. lay Queen .. ioots blower, 3f in. W.G. •itto Nil Eight-hour shift. J5 * • iaxon Three in crosscut, six at face of crosscut Nil Four Nil Quantity measured from 9 in. air-pipe. ,, j, jj • • ,, Quantity measured from 22 in. air-pipe.

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EXHIBIT No. 4. Waihi Gold-mining Company (Limited). —Temperature of Mine-air observed by Commissioners.

M. Paul, Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 5. Ohinemuri Mines. —Particulars regarding Temperatures of Air in Quartz-mines, Northern Inspection District. Waihi Mine.

412

i Place. Temperature. Date. Level. Wet Bulb. Dry Bulb. O o 18/8/11 i> )j *> Plan level 9, 1,000 ft. P5 )> Outside mine, in shade Martha, south drive from No. 2 shaft Welcome, west of Richards's crosscut, 30 ft. in Edward, east of Perch's crosscut, about 200 ft. in Edward, 570 ft. in from Porch's crosscut No. 4 shaft crosscut, 1,000 ft. in Reptile crosscut, 800 ft. in, end of blower-pipe, 800 ft. in Empire, east face, 617 ft. in Royal face, 800 ft. in Face of crosscut Perry's stope, 24 ft. up, Empire Brown's stope, Empire Martha, south Robinson's stope Dutton's drive Outside mine, in shade Royal, east face, 900 ft. in from No. 4 shaft . . Pearson's stope, 88 ft. up .. „ other end Napier's stope, 50 ft. up Royal, Elsegood's stope, 40 ft. up Scorpion crosscut face, 600 ft. in Edward and Welcome, 80 ft. up Outside mine, in shade Edward level, under Bullock's pass Bullock's stope, 90 ft., west end ,, „ east end Empire, east (Williams's) stope, 70 ft. up Furey's stope, 60 ft. up Regina Section, Martha, Prisk's place No. 1 shaft, north-west crosscut Martha, south Truscott's stope, 85 ft. up Martha, north Cameron's pass, near fallen ground Edward filling-shaft, first observation „ second observation Royal, Healey's place 56-1 74 73 73 82i 59 82 62| 75 74 73J 83 61 82 >.* »' j) ; j ;> ; j >; 19/8/11 J) J5 .*') J) >! )> j> Plan level 10, 1,150 ft. Plan level 9, 1,000 ft. J) >> 5) Plan level 8, 850 ft. >) 5) J) J) •>i 81J 78 77 69 70 68 81 54 76 78 79 74 81 80 75 45 79 82 81* 70 77| 691 59| 70 82 82 80 77* 81* 78 77 70 72 68J 82 62| 77 79 79 75 81 82 75J 54 80 83f 82 77 78| 70 61 701 821 83 81 78 21/8/11 ;i Plan level 7, 700 ft. >? J) )> M >J Plan level 6, 600 ft. 5 I )j >> ;> >> >.<

Date. Locality in Mine where Temperature was taken. Temperature, in Degrees Fahrenheit. Dry Bulb. Wet Bulb. 1/12/09 No. 7 level, north-west No. 2 shaft No. 1 shaft, north-west crosscut No. 1 shaft, south of north-west crosscut Richards's filling-pass No. 6 shaft, crosscut No. 4 shaft, south crosscut Royal filling-pass 75 65 72 72 None taken.

413

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EXHIBIT No. 5—continued. Ohinemuri Mines. —Particulars regarding Temperatures of Air in Quartz-mines, Northern Inspection District — continued. Waihi Mine —continued.

Temperature, in Degrees Fahrenheit. Date. Locality in Mine where Temperature was taken. Dry Bulb. | Wet Bulb. 1/12/09 Main drive on Royal lode No. 8 level, north section, Royal lode No. 4 shaft, drive on Empire lode No. 4 shaft, north-west crosscut Drive along Edward lode Same drive, near its junction with Royal lode Wheel filling-pass .. . . Drive on No. 2 lode, 40 ft. west No. 1 filling-pass.. Main crosscut to No. 6 shaft South section Martha lode, west of Hawkins's stopes No. 9 level crosscut to No. 6 shaft North branch of Royal lode from No. 4 shaft Junction of Welcome and Edward lodes North crosscut from No. 4 shaft Empire lode, east of crosscut Empire lode, west of crosscut Main crosscut from No. 4 to No. 6 shaft North branch of Royal lode, between Nos. 4 and 5 shafts .. Royal lode, face of drive Main crosscut from No 4 shaft Face of drive from Empire to Edward lodes Drive east, Empire lode Stopes on this lode Martha lode, east of No. 9 level Face of crosscut, Regina section, No. 9 level Drive, south section of Martha Drive, north section of Martha South crosscut, No. 6 shaft No. 2 lode, west drive Face of drive, east footwall section, Martha lode Hanging-wall, drive east Martha lode Hanging-wall, drive west Martha lode Main crosscut, north-east from No. 4 shaft South-west crosscut from No. 4 shaft Drive on Empire lode Drive east on Royal lode Stope on Royal lode, 1,000 ft. from crosscut Same line of stopes, 300 ft. east Temperature of stables for horses in use Drive on Royal lode, west of crosscut Thomas and party's stopes, Royal lode Face of crosscut, west of Royal lode Waddel and party's stopes, Edward lode .. Steer and party's stopes, Edward lode Charters and party's rise Brooking's stopes, Martha lode Stopes, footwall section, Martha lode Same stopes 160 ft. farther east Butler and party's stopes on Martha lode Richards and party's stopes on Martha lode Main crosscut to No. 6 shaft East drive on footwall of Martha lode Drive on No. 2 lode Drive footwall of Martha lode west . . .. Rise footwall of Martha lode west Stopes on Martha lode above this level Main crosscut to No. 2 shaft Main crosscut to No. 6 shaft Matheson's stope, footwall section Drive, No. 11 level None taken. 55 2/12/09 75 77 77 a 35 a 65 5: 55 a 5) a a 55 3/12/09 70 55 a 55 5; 82 80 83 a a 5) a 55 82 69 84 70 75 73 77 78 64 58 58 67 64 63 62 61 73 64 83 80 71 67 83 79 79 74 84 67 70 67 68 71 60 69 64 69 78 72 68 58 72 80 26/9/10 ii 68 83 69 73 71 76 76 61 55 55 64 61 59 59 59 71 61 81 78 70 64 81 76 77 72 81 64 68 64 67 69 58 67 62 68 77 71 67 56 70 79 & 2/10/10 5/10/10 7/10/10 3 5 55 5; 20/10/10 55 55 )} 15/2/11

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EXHIBIT No. 5— continued. Ohinemuri Mines.—Particulars regarding Temperatures of Air in Quartz-mines, Northern Inspection District— continued. Waihi Mine —continued.

414

Temperature, in Degrees Fahrenheit. Temperature 3, in Degrees Date. Locality in Mine where Temperature was taken. Fahrci Dry Bulb. 3, 1U A/Dgll,l>; inheit. Wet Bulb. 15/2/11 15/3/11 16/3/11 20/3/11 55 53 53 3) 35 35 23/3/11 33 35 35 24/3/11 8/5/11 5' 3? >3 Drive on Royal lode. No. 10 level Drive on Royal lode, No. 10 level Reptile crosscut from Royal lode, No. 10 level Temperature of air passing down No. 4 shaft . . . : Temperature of air passing down No. 6 shaft Parry and party's stopes, Empire lode, above No. 10 level. , Murphy and party's drive, Edward lode, No. 10 level Face of drive, Royal lode, No. 10 level Face of drive, Martha lode, No. 10 leve.l Face of crosscut through Martha lode, No. 10 level Rise on Martha lode, 80 ft. above this level Brooks and Down's stopes above this level Pearson and party's stope, Royal lode, above No. 9 level .. Fletcher and party's stope, Royal lode, above No. 9 level .. Stopes on Empire lode east, No. 10 level No. 1 stope, Royal lode, No. 10 level No. 2 stope, Royal lode, No. 10 level No. 3 stope, Royal lode, No. 10 level No. 4 stope, Royal lode, No. 10 level Horan and party's stope on Royal lode, above No. 9 level . . Adjoining stope on same lode farther east Cartman and party, same lode Reptile crosscut, No. 10 level Drive on Empire lode east, No. 10 level Drive on Royal lode west, No. 10 level Drive on Empire lode west, No. 10 level Crosscut for Rex lode, No. 9 level Main airway on Empire lode Face, No. 11 level Main crosscut, No. 11 level, between Nos. 4 and 5 shafts . . No. 10 level, Reptile crosscut Rise west face drive on Royal lode, same level Main crosscut between Nos. 4 and 6 shafts, same level ,. Drive on Welcome lode west, No. 2 shaft, same level Dead-end, south face Edward lode, No. 10 level Winze on Empire lode, 65 ft. below this level Face of drive east Empire lode, same level Main crosscut west of No. 4 shaft to Royal lode, No. 9 level Drive, junction of Royal and Edward lodes, same level Stope on Scorpion lode, same level Scorpion crosscut Face of drive on small lode west of Scorpion crosscut Drive on Empire lode where horses are stabled Main aircourse between Nos. 4 and 6 shafts, near stables . . No. 10 level, main crosscut, from No. 4 to No. 6 shaft Empire lode west, No. 10 level Face of drive from Empire to Edward lodes, same level Drive, east Empire lode, same level Stopes on Empire east, above No. 10 level Martha lode east, same level Face of crosscut, Regina lode . . .. ... Drive on south section Martha, same level Drive on north section Martha, same level 85 85 80 63 63 76 83 80 71 77 75 73 83 84 77 77 81 79 83 87 79 80 82 81 78 74 78 70 81 78 80 80 61 73 80 73 85 62 80 85 85 85 70 68 68 69 84 70 75 73 80 78 64 84 84 79 75 82 79 70 76 74 72 82 83 76 76 80 78 82 86 78 79 80 80 77 71 77 69 80 76 79 79 59 71 78| 69 80 60 76 84 84 83 67 66 66 68 83 69 73 71 78 76 61 26/7/11 •5 33 3.> 33 33 27/7/11 33 33 35 29/8/10 ii ii ii ii ii

415

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EXHIBIT No. 5— continued. Ohinemuri Mines, Hauraki Mining District. —Particulars regarding Ventilation of Quartzmines, Northern Inspection District. Waihi Mine.

Date. Where Measurement taken. Volume of Air circulating. 1/12/09 33 53 53 33 33 33 35 2/12/09 No. 7 level, north-west No. 2 shaft No. 1 shaft, north-west crosscut No. 1 shaft, south of north-west crosscut Richards's filling-pass No. 6 shaft, crosscut No. 4 shaft, south crosscut Royal filling-shaft Main drive on Royal lode No. 8 level, north section Royal lode No. 4 shaft, drive on Empire lode No. 4 shaft, north-west crosscut Drive along Edward lode, same level Same drive near its junction with Royal lode .. Wheel filling-pass .. .. . . Drive on No. 2 lode, 40 ft. west No. 1 filling-pass.. Main crosscut to No. 6 shaft, No. 8 level South section of Martha lode, west of Hawkins's stopes No. 9 level crosscut to No. 6 shaft North branch Royal lode, No. 4 shaft Junction of Welcome and Edward lodes No. 10 level, north crosscut, from No. 4 shaft Empire lode, east of crosscut Empire lode, west of crosscut Main crosscut from No. 4 to No. 6 shaft.. North branch of Royal lode, between Nos. 4 and 5 shafts . : Royal lode, face of drive Main crosscut from No. 4 shaft, same level Face of drive from Empire to Edward lode Drive, east Empire lode Martha lode, east Face of crosscut, Regina section Drive, south section, Martha Drive, north section, Martha South crosscut, No. 6 shaft No. 2 lode, drive west Face of drive, east footwall section, Martha Hanging-wall, drive east Martha lode Hanging-wall, drive west Martha lode Main crosscut, north-east from No. 4 shaft South-west crosscut from No. 4 shaft Drive on Empire lode, Drive east on Royal lode Stope on Royal lode, 1,000 ft. from crosscut Same line of stopes, 300 ft. east Temperature of stables for horses in use Drive on Royal lode west of crosscut Thomas and party's stopes, Royal lode Face of crosscut, west Royal lode Waddel and party's stopes, Edward lode Steer and party's stopes, Edward lode Charters and party's rise Brooking's stopes, Martha lode Stopes, footwall section, Martha lode Same stopes, 160 ft. farther east .. . . Butler and party's stopes, Martha lode Richards and party's stopes, Martha lode Main crosscut to No. 6 shaft East drive on footwall of Martha lode Drive on No. 3 lode Drive footwall, Martha lode west Rise footwall, Martha lode west Cub. ft. 2.071 6,272 5,088 No reading. 1,280 1,280 No reading. 9,585 1,575 2,376 5,120 2,080 3,331 1,472 3,307 6,327 2,275 18,560 3,375 6,352 5,850 No reading. 33 ii "i 33 3/12/09 33 33 n 33 1,400 No reading. 12,726 No reading. 10,416 No reading. 33 26/8/10 33 33 33 33 ii 33 & 2/10/10 2,352 12.800 2,940 No reading. 940 1,438 7,910 7,200 No reading. )> ii 5/10/10 2,660 No reading. 33 33 35 33 7/10/10 33 33 35 33 35 33 33 3) 35 20/10/10 1,610 2,380 No reading. 33 33 53 ii 54- -('. i.

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416

EXHIBIT No. 5— continued. Ohinemuri Mines, Hauraki Mining District.-Particulars regarding Ventilation of Quartzmines, Northern Inspection District— continued. Waihi Mine —continued.

Ohinemuri Mines, Hauraki Mining District.-Particulars regarding Analysis of Air taken in Quartz-mines, Northern Inspection District.

M. Paul, Inspector of Mines. EXHIBIT No. 0. [Not printed. |

D.ite. Where Measurement taken. Volume of. Air circulating. 20/10/10 Stopes on Martha lode Main crosscut to No. 2 shaft Main crosscut to No. 6 shaft Matheson's stope, footwall section, Martha Main crosscut, south No. 4 shaft Drive on Royal lode east No. 4 shaft .... No. 6 shaft .... Main crosscut between Nos. 4 and 5 shafts Reptile, crosscut Main crosscut between Nos. 4 and 5 shafts east on'Empire'lode * ace of drive east on Empire lode Main crosscut west of shaft to Royal lode Stope on Scorpion lode Scorpion crosscut Drive west on Royal lode Cub. ft. No reading. 7.936 7,688 No reading. 6,846 24,120 15.480 7,875 464 9,324 122 4,320 1,930 87 4,200 35 33 33 16/6/11 26/7/11 27/7/11 33 35 35

;e. Locality where Sample taken. i i Oxygen. Carbondioxide. Waihi Mine, 15/2/11 No. 11 level No. 10 level, Royal lode 26/7/11 No. 1, near face, No. 11 level „ No. 2, Reptile crosscut, No. 10 level „ No. 3, rise west face drive, Royal lode „ No. 4, south face on Edward lode No. 5, winze on Empire lode, 65 ft. below this level „ I No. 6, face of drive east on Empire lode 27/7/11 No. 7, No. 9 level, Scorpion crosscut . . ' ' No. 8, face of drive on small lode west of Scorpion crosscut „ JNo. 9, main airway near stables No. 10, drive on Empire lode where there are eight stalls four horses m when sample taken No. 11, drive west on Royal lode over Gable's stopes „ No. 12, same drive further west, 20-83 20-30 0-280 0-370 0-376 0-096 0-041 0-298 0150 0-096 0-056 0-037 0-110 Waihi Grand Junction Mine. 15/2/11 J Empire lode, No. 5 level I Mary lode, No. 4 level 28/7/1] No. 13, face of drive on George lode, No. 5 level No. 14, Adams's stopes, Royal lode, above No. 5 level ' No. 15, Mary lode, Anderson's stope, above this level „ No. 16, face of drive east on Mary lode, same level No. 17, stope west on Mary lode above this level No. 18, drive on Grace lode, 1,000 ft. from shaft 20-96 20-40 0-100 0-170 0-098 0-128 0-055 0-065 Waihi Reefs Consolidated Mine. 28/7/11 No. 19, taken from bottom of shaft 0-381

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EXHIBIT No. 7. Air-measurements taken at Waihi Grand Junction Mine, 28th August, 1911.

Note.—The fan is of Sirocco type, double'inlet, electrically driven. Estimated 8.H.P., 34; observed W.G., 1-12 in. Temperature of outside air in shade, 51|° wet bulb, 54° dry bulb ; temperature of mine-air discharged, 69° wet bulb, 69° dry bulb ; temperature of mine, maximum observed, 83° wet bulb, 83-|° dry bulb. . M. Paul, Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 8. Waihi Extended and Waihi Grand Junction Mines.—Temperature of Mine-air observed by Commissioners.

M. Paul, Inspector of Mines.

417

Locality where Measurement taken. Quantity of Air circulating, in Cubic Feet per Minute. Total Number Average Quantity of of Men on Air per Min, in Day Shift. Feet per Minute. Intake Air. Jo. 5 level— |South crosscut North crosscut.. Io. 4 level— North crosscut. . To. 3 level — North crosscut 16,293 14,492 4,738 8 18 12 2,036 805 394 9,332 50 186 leasured intake from fan .. Prom natural sources —balance 44,855 ' 2,710 Total intake 47,565 88 540 Return Air. 'assing through into Extended Mine at No. 5 level 'assing through fan 11,550 Total measured return 36,015 540 47,565 88

Temperature. Date. Level. Place. _-. B.I |J J_ »_V t» 1_ *.■ ( Wet Bulb. Dry Bulb. 26/8/11 No. 5 (960 ft.) Waihi Extended Mine. Outside mine, in shade (wet day) Plat at winding-shaft.. West crosscut at timber stopping (no work being done here) Shaft-bottom during sinking (ventilated by pipes from blowei fan) 41) 89 88 U 50 83 90 )J l> Sump (1,100 ft.) 88 28/8/11 I No. 5 (944 ft.) Waihi Grand Junction Mine. J) 5) J) >> ?) 5' >5 - 5) )? •>•) }> i> Outside mine, in shade Return air from mine at fan Plat at shaft No. 1 winze, Grace lode, 40 ft. down Ferguson's stope, Empire lode, 900 ft., east On level under Ferguson's stope .. ! Lindwall's stope, Royal, east Adams's stope .. Keen's stope, 40 ft. up, Mary lode Keen's stope, other end On level under stope At connection with Extended Henderson's stope, 42 ft. up Henderson's stope, another place Under Henderson's stope, at level m 69 60 79 73 64-1-70J 83" 83 70 671 73 78 78 71 55 69 63J 82 76 70-1 73' 84 83| 75 71 84| 79 81 74 I JJ i> )> J? j> , 5> )) )> )> >> 5J " a >>

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418

EXHIBIT No. 9. Ohinemuri Mines, Hauraki Mining District. —Particulars regarding Temperature of Air, Quartz-mines, Northern Inspection District. Waihi Grand Junction Mine.

Ohinemuri Mines, Hauraki Mining District. —Particulars regarding Ventilation of Quartzmines, Northern Inspection District. Waihi Grand Junction Mine.

Date,. Locality iii Mine where Temperature taken. Locality in Mine where Temperature taken. Temperatun Fahrei Dry Bulb. •e, in Degrees snheit. Dry Bulb. Wet Bulb. 20/7/10 No. 5 level, face of drive, Royal lode west ,, Face of drive, Royal lode east, same level ,, Face of drive, Empire lode west, same level ,, StopeB, Empire lode west, same level .. ,, South-east crosscut, same level „ North-west crosscut, same level ,, Drive, Empire lode west, same level .. „ Drive, Empire lode east, same level . . ,, Face of drive, taken from air-pipe, same level . . „ Face of drive, Royal lode west ,, New crosscut, same level ,, Martha lode east, same level ,, Martha lode east, same level „ Face of drive, Martha lode east, same level ,, Temperature of air delivered at this face „ North crosscut, No. 4 level . . „ Winze on Royal lode east, No. 4 level 26/7/10 Winze on Royal lode, below No. 4 level ,, Rise on Royal lode, above No. 5 level ,, Rise on Martha lode, above No. 5 level ,, Drive on Empire lode east, No. 5 level 15/2/11 Royal lode drive east, No. 5 level ,, Drive on Mary lode, No. 4 level 28/7/11 No. 5 level, face of drive, on George lode ,, ! Adams's stope, Royal lode, above No. 5 level . . ,, Main airway, Royal lode, No. 5 level .. ,, Main crosscut south of shaft, No. 5 level ,, Drive on Grace lode, 1,000 ft. east of shaft, No. 5 level .. ,, Mary lode, Anderson's stopes, above this level.. ,, Face of drive east on Mary lode, same level ,, Stope west on Mary lode, above this level ., ; Crosscut to Mary lode, same level ,, Main crosscut north of shaft, No. 4 level •• 80 84 74 74 65 65 75 75 88 75 81 75 74 87 86 65 86 86 88 90 85 87 83 soiss 68 55 85 85 84 83 None 61 81 82 79 80 65 53-1 81 81 81 82 taken. 58

Date. Where Measurement taken. I Volume of Air j circulating. rt. 29/10/09 ii ii ii a ii No. 1 lode, west crosscut Same lode, west No. 4 winze Main crosscut, north of shaft South-east crosscut, between shaft and No. 4 lode Empire lode, 10 ft., west of crosscut Same lode, at end timbers Empire lode, east crosscut Empire lode, further east between Nos. 7 and 8 winzes Main crosscut, north of shaft No. 2 lode, west No. 4 winze No. 1 lode, east crosscut South-east crosscut Empire lode east South-east crosscut, No. 5 level Cub. ft. 3,360 3,780 3,780 9,100 6,300 '2,900 3,360 1,470 19,320 6,300 2,604 5,512 5,880 9,088 ii ii • ii ii •i ii ii

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EXHIBIT No. 9— continued. Ohinemuri Mines, Hauraki Mining District. —Particulars regarding Ventilation of Quartz-mines, Northern Inspection District — continued. Waihi Grand Junction Mine —continued.

Ohinemuri Mines, Hauraki Mining District.—Particulars regarding Temperature and Ventilation of Quartz-mines, Northern Inspection District. Waihi Extended Mine.

M. Paul, Inspector of Mines. EXHIBIT No. 10. Fatal Accidents which have" occurred during the Year 1911. A. C. Andeison, killed by a fall of quartz in stopes on Royal lode at No. 5 level, Waihi Grand Junction Mine, on the 16th Januaiy, 1911. James Samson, killed by a fall of quartz in the stopes on the Martha lode at No. 8 level, Waihi Mine, on the 17th May, 1911. Serious Accidents which have occurred during the Tear. William Moran, lost eyesight by an explosion of gelignite in the Waihi Grand Junction Mine on the 19th January, 1911. Thomas Franklin, lost left arm at [elbow owing to [accident at No. 5 level, Waihi Grand Junction Mine, on the 15th April, 1911. William Simpson, arm broken by being struck by handle of windlass in Komata Reefs Mine, Komata, on the 11th April, 1911. George Faulder, received nasty cut on head and back, also left hand injured, by a fall of ground in the Waihi Mine, being unable to get away from a shot, on the 17th April, 1911. D. Smeaton, small bone in leg broken in Waihi Mine on the 18th April, 1911. Hemy Colhurst, leg broken by a fall of stone, Old Hauraki Mine, Coromandel, on the 16th May, 1911.

Where Measurement taken. Volume of Air circulating. Date. 20/7/10 55 5 3 33 33 35 North-west crosscut, same level Drive, Empire lode west, same level Drive, Empire lode east, same level Face of drive taken from air-pipe, same level Face of drive, Royal lode west, same level New crosscut, same level Martha lode east Martha lode east North crosscut, same level Main crosscut, No. 3 level Main crosscut, No. 4 level Main crosscut, No. 5 level Royal lode drive east, No. 5 level Drive on Mary lode, No. 4 level Face of drive on George lode, No. 4 level Adams's stope, Royal lode, above No. 5 level Main airway, Royal lode, No. 5 level Main crosscut south of shaft, same level Drive on Grace lode, 1,000 ft. east of shaft, same level Mary lode, Anderson's stopes, above this level Face of drive east on Mary lode, same level Stope west on Mary lode, above this level Crosscut to Mary lode, same level Main crosscut north of shaft, No. 4 level Cub. ft. 9,152 2,002 2,229 460 900 No reading. 2.352 5,670 23,296 6,154 7,995 18,767 No reading. 35 33 19/1/11 33 35 28/7/11 j? 55 7,315 21,315 876,928 798 No reading. 55 53 33 35 7,000 8,320 33 35

Temperature, in Degrees Fahrenheit. Date. Where Measurement taken. /of. T Anemometer Reading. Dry Bulb. Wet Bulb. Jry ±5ul lb. W 24/11/09 >! Crosscut, No. 4 level Face of crosscut, No. 4 level No. 2 crosscut, No. 5 level Face on No. 2 reef, No. 5 level Half-way in this drive, No. 5 level .. 83 96 90 83 Ft. 6,300 2,450 )? }> ?>

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William Hill, lost right eye, and left eye seriously impaired, by a blasting accident in the Waihi Mine on the 24th May, 1911. P. Martin, broken leg, Waihi Grand Junction Mine, on the 30th May, 1911. Samuel Thornally, severe cuts about head and face, also ribs broken, one of which penetrated the lung, in surface cutting, Waihi Mine, on the 24th June, 1911. Hugh. McKemon, fractured skull, Waihi Grand Junction Mine, on the 22nd July, 1911. H. W. Jones, broken leg, Four-in-Hand Mine, Coromandel, on the 7th August, 1911.

Total Numbbe ov Accidents in the Waihi Mine since 13th April, 1911. April. Robert Dick, strained himself using crowbar, Waihi Mine, 22nd April, 1911. D. Smeaton, small bone of leg broken, Waihi Mine, 18th April, 1911. G. Faulder, blasting accident, Waihi Mine, 17th April, 1911. G. Macßae, injury to eye, Waihi Mine, 29th April, 1911. R. Hawke, poisoned hand, Waihi Mine, 20th April, 1911. R. J. Andrews, injury to eye, Waihi Mine, 13th April, 1911. G. Warby, poisoned ankle, Waihi Mine, 17th April, 1911. R. Hatfield, poisoned ankle, Waihi Mine, 28th April, 1911. D. Strong, injuiy to back, Waihi Mine, 19th April, 1911. B. Weston, injury to foot, Waihi Mine, 26th April, 1911. S. McLeary, crushed fingers, Waihi Mine, 22nd April, 1911. A. Williamson, injury to thumb, Waihi Company's Victoria Mill, 28th April, 1911. T, Sharkey, injury to knee, Waihi Mine, 26th April, 1911. John Rigby, strained back, Waihi Mine, 18th April, 1911. H. Wallace, poisoned finger, Waihi Mine, 22nd April, 1911. Total for month of April, 15. May. A. McLeary, Waihi Mine, 11th May, 1911. John Owens, injury to hand, Waihi Mine, 12th May, 191 I. James Samson, killed by a fall of quartz, Waihi Mine, 17th May, 1911. W. Huxtable, injury to arm, Waihi Mine, 22nd May, 1911. John Cunliffe, Waihi Mine, 23rd May, 1911. J. J. Casey, Waihi Mine, 24th May, 1911. William Hill, blasting .accident (will probably lose sight), Waihi Mine, 24th May, 1911. T. Brydon, Waihi Mine, 25th May, 1911. Robert Trembath, pneumoconiosis, Waihi Mine, 31st May, 1911. J. Burt, injury to hand, Waihi Mine, 16th May, 1911. C. Perry, injury to foot, Waihi Mine, 9th May, 1911. T. Smith, injury to head, Waihi Mine, 2nd May, 1911. C. Burley, injury to knee, Waihi Mine, 10th May, 1911. A. Jones, injury to hand, Waihi Mine, 10th May, 1911. A. Atkinson, injury to head, Waihi Mine, 17th May, 1911. S. West, Waihi Company's Victoria Mill, Waikino, 3rd May, 191.1. James O'Connor, pneumoconiosis, Waihi Company's Battery, 12th May, 1911. Total for month of May, 17. June. Percy Wigmore, injury to foot, Waihi Mine, Ist June, 1911. W. H. Cardwell, crushed ringers, Waihi Mine, 2nd June, 1911. R. Lockyer, injuiy to foot, Waihi Mine, 7th June, 1911. Alex. Ross, strained muscles, Waihi Mine, 12th June, 1911. Ernest Opie, injury to thumb, Waihi Mine, Bth June, 1911. A. Lucas, injury to wrist, Waihi Mine, 10th June, 1911. James Kellet, injury to hands, Waihi Company's Sawmill, 15th June, 1911. R. McLoud, injury to leg, Waihi Battery, 13th June, 1911. F. J. Williams, crushed finger, Waihi Mine, 22nd June, 1911. Walter A. Abbott, pneumoconiosis, Victoiia Mill, Waikino, 19th June, 1911. G. T. White, severe heemoirhage, Waihi Mine, 19th June, 1911. H. Morton, Waihi Mine, Ist June, 1911. S. Thornally, broken ribs, Waihi Mine, 24th June, 1911. S. Proctor, injury to hand, Waihi Mine, 26th June, 1911. N. Thomas, crushed finger, Waihi Mine, 19th June, 1911. A. Quinlan, crushed foot, Waihi Mine, 21st June, 1911.. Total for month of June, 16. July. W. H. Forsland, contusion of foot, Waihi Mine, Bth July, 1911. J. Cornthwaite, injury to finger, Waihi Battery, 12th July, 1911. D. Fitzgerald, contused elbow, Waihi Mine, 13th July, 1911. H. S. Bull, strained back, Waihi Mine, 10th July, 1911. R. McLeary, injury to thumb, Waihi Mine, 10th July, 1911.

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W. Holdsworth, broken finger, Waihi Mine, 15th July, 1911. J. E. Williams, crushed finger, Waihi Mine, 17th July, 1911. T. Cartman, injury to leg, Waihi Mine, 15th July, 1911. M. Kuluz, injury to thumb, Waihi Mine, 27th July, 1911. C. Parry, scalp wound, Waihi Mine, 25th July, 1911. \V. J. Thompson, injury to hand, Waihi Mine, 26th July, 1911. M. Mahoney, crushed leg, Waihi Mine, 31st July, 1911. - Hughes, crushed finger, Waihi Mine, 14th July, 1911. Total for month of July, 13. August. E. King, scalp wound, Waihi Mine, 2nd August, 1911. A. Burt, injured by a fall down a winze, Waihi Mine, Ist August, 1911. J. R. Morrison, injury to leg, Waihi Mine, Ist August, 1911. G. R. Thomas, injury to finger, Waihi Mine, 9th August, 1911. W. F. Reynolds, injury to wrist, Waihi Mine, 6th August, 1911. P. Mac Donald, sprained ankle, Victoria Mill, Waikino, Bth August, 1911. R. Arnscott, injury to groin, Waihi Mine, 12th August, 1911. William Moore, injury to finger, Victoria Mill, Waikino, 15th August, 1911. Roger Hartley, injury to hand, Waihi Mine, 12th August, 1911. W. Collins, contused wound left hand, Waihi Mine, 15th August, 1911. Jacob Beck, injured back and head, Waihi Mine, 2nd August, 1911. Andrew Love, injury to hand, Waihi Mine, 15th August, 1911. Sydney O'Dell, injury to head, Waihi Mine, 14th August, 1911. Cecil Farrely, injury to finger, Waihi Mine, 18th August, 1911. G. B. Cooper, injury to hand, Waihi Mine, 19th August, 1911. Total for month of August, 15.

Coroners' inquests at Waihi, Hauraki Mining District. —Verdicts and Ridebs returned foe period January, 1909, to July, 1911, inclusive. (1.) 18th February, 1909. — Verdict: "That the deceased, Joseph Hearn, met his death on the 18th February, 1909, at the Waihi District Hospital, through the result of injuries received from an accident whilst working on the No. 8 level, No. 2 shaft, of the Waihi Company's Mine ; no blame being attachable to any one." Rider : A rider was added to the effect that in future a temporary stagingbe erected in passes during cribbing operations, but was deleted on the recommendation of the Coroner and Mining Inspector, as the construction of stages in passes would only increase the chance of accident, as men would have to go into the pass to take the staging out. The company's representative also agreed to recommendation. (2.) 12th July, 1909. — Verdict: " That the deceased, Stanley Foster, met his death by accidentally falling down the shaft at the Waihi Beach Company's Mine on Bth July, 1909 ; no blame being attachable to any one." Rider : We would suggest that in future the bearers be put under the tank instead of thiough the straps. (3.) 27th August, 1909.— Verdict: " That the deceased, George H. Roycroft, met his death at Wailii on the 26th day of August, 1909, as the result of injuries received by accidentally slipping and falling from the scaffolding of one of the B. and M. agitating-tanks at the Waihi Grand Junction Goldmining Company's Mine ;no blame being attachable to any one." Rider : The jury recommend that all 'scaffolding on such tanks be protected by a plank not less than 6 in. high on the outer edge of the platform. (4.) 27th October, 1909.— Verdict: "That the deceased, Edwaid J. Liddy, came to his death on the 26th day of October, 1909, at the Waihi Hospital, as the result of injuries received in the Waihi Company's Mine on the 16th day of October, 1909 ; no blame being attachable to any one." Note : The evidence showed that there was no definite place fixed for the leaders of the shifts to meet, so that the leader of the outgoing shift could report as to the nature of the workings to the leader of the ingoing shift. The Coroner and Mining Inspector suggested that the jury make a recommendation in the matter, but this was not acted upon. (5.) 3rd December, 1909.— Verdict: " That the deceased, Robert G. Stone, came to his death through haemorrhage of the biain caused by a piece of timber, 6 in. by 2 in. and 4 ft. 6 in. long, falling on him while pulling down some old fluming at the W 7 aihi Company's Union Battery. We find that the cause of death was purely accidental, and that no blame is attachable to any one." (6.) 11th March, 1910.— Verdict: " That the deceased, Frederick Whyte and John O'Malley, met their death by falling down the Waihi Gold-mining Company's No. 4 pumping-shaft, there being no evidence to show how or what caused them to fall ; no blame being attachable to any one." Rider: That men working in shafts be compelled to place adequate and cleated stage-boards beneath them. (7.) 16th August, 1910.— Verdict: "That the deceased, George Henesy, met his death from injuries received whilst irr the employ of the Waihi Company at Waikino on the 14th day of August, 1910, through attempting single-handed to place a belt on a revolving pulley, which duty shorrld not be undertaken by one man. The jury find there is no blame attachable to the Waihi Company nor to any of its officials." Rider : That it be a recommendation to the Waihi Company that, wherever practicable, a guard be placed over the studs and collars of revolving shafts. (8.) 13th October, [910. —Verdict: " That the deceased, Charles A. Cavanagh, died in the Waihi Hospital on the 3rd day of October, 1910, from the result of injuries received by accidentally falling down the Waihi Company's No. i> shaft when engaged in timbering operations on the sth day of October, 1909,"

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(9.) 19th October, 1910.— Verdict: " That the deceased, Matthew Berryman, met his death by accidentally falling out of the cage down the No. 2 shaft of the Waihi Company's Mine on the 14th day of October, 1910." Rider : That, in our opinion, something should be done to prevent a similar accident, and we recommend that a conference be held between the Mining Inspector, the Miners' Union Inspector, and the Waihi Company's representative, with a view of devising some scheme of safeguarding the lives of men travelling in shafts. (10.) 14th November, 1910. — Verdict: " That the deceased, Joyce William Chapman, met his death accidentally while repairing machinery when in motion at the Waihi Company's Waihi Battery on the 11th day of November, 1910." Rider: The jury is of the opinion that work of that nature should not be attempted while the machinery is in motion. (11.) 17th January, 1911. — Verdict: " That the deceased, Andrew Craig Anderson, met his death accidentally on the 16th day of January, 1911, in the Waihi Grand Junction Company's Mine at Waihi, by a fall of stone ; no blame being attachable to any one." (12.) 17th May, 1911. — Verdict: " That the deceased, James Samson, met his death accidentally in the Waihi Company's Mine on Wednesday, the 17th day of May, 1911, through a fall of stone ; no blame being attachable to any one." Summary. —Ten killed in Waihi Mine and batteries, two killed in the Waihi Grand Junction Mine, and one killed in the Waihi Beach Mine. All the verdicts were unanimous, and three out of the six jurors were working-miners not engaged in the mine where fatality occurred. Scene of accident inspected in each case. I would recommend that the workmen's inspector under the Mining Act have a legal right to attend inquests and to examine and cross-examine witnesses. Waihi, 23id August, 1911. M. Paul, Inspector of Mines, Waihi.

EXHIBIT No. 11. Ohinemuri Mines, Hauraki Mining District.—Particulars regarding Temperature and Ventilation of Quartz-mines, Northern Inspection District. Talisman Mine.

Temperature, in Degrees Fahrenheit. Date. Where Measurement taken. Anemometer Reading. Dry Bulb. Wet Bull). 29/9/10 No. 11 level Bonanza stopes, above No. 12 level Main drive, junction east and west branch, south shaft, No. 12 level Drive on reef north of shaft, No. 12 level No. 13 level, No. 6 winze, driving north and south from bottom, temp, each face South drive on reef, No. 13 level No. 12 winze, 150 ft. below No. 13 level Leading stope south of No. 12 rise, No. 13 level Drive on reef south No. 12 winze, No. 12 level Mullock rise south of No. 12 rise, above No. 10 level South face drive, No. 13 level Bonanza stopes south No. 15 rise, same level No. 13 winze, below No. 13 level Mullock rise between Nos. 12 and 15 rises, same level .. Bottom of No. 12 winze, south face, same level North face, bottom of same winze, same level Face of north drive, No. 12 level Face of drive, Shepherd's lode, same level Bonanza stopes, intermediate level Bonanza stopes, above No. 12 level Same stope north of No. 12 rise, same level Stopes on east branch, north. No. 7 winze Main crosscut, river level Main crosscut, 70 ft. above No. 13 level, leading to Woodstock shaft Main crosscut, south of shaft, No. 13 level Main drive, on reef north of No. 12 winze Face of drive on main lode north, over 1,000 ft. from shaft No. 16 rise, 20 ft. north of above face, height 106 ft. Welcome winze, east crosscut, No. 13 level, depth 62 ft. North, face, bottom of No. 12 winze, 140 ft. below No. 13 level South face from bottom No. 12 winze 70 78 77 Ft. 9,610 1,600 4,536 53 69 81 3,615 33 33 79 73 81 81 83 79 79 83 82 80 78 69 69 77 78 77 76! 67 60 7,200 33 2,310 33 4-/4/11 33 33 33 35 33 78 78 81 81 79 77 68 68 75 77 76 75! 65 56 33 5 3 33 33 3/8/1 1 4,950 33 33 53 62 70 77 74 80 76 60 64 76 72! 78 73 5,530 6.300 No reading. 102-2 No reading. 1.081-7' 33 3* 33 80 75 No reading.

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EXHIBIT No. 11— continued. Ohinemuri Mines, Hauraki Mining District.—Particulars regarding Temperature of Air in Quartz-mines, Northern Inspection District. New Zealand Crown Mines.

Matthew Paul, Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 12. Coromandel Mines. —Particulars regarding Temperature of Quartz-mines, Northern Inspection District.

Matthew Paul, Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 13. Particulars regarding Ventilation at Taupiri Coal-mines (Limited).

Date. 7/8/11 •>> )J I Looality in Mine where Temperature taken. Main crosscut, No. 4 level Edwards's stopes, above No. 4 level Hodge's rise, 32 ft. above No. 4 level Wall's rise, below No. 4 level, Welcome reef Radcliffe's stope, 100 ft. above No. 4 level Main crosscut, No. 3 level Robinson and party's drive south on Welcome reef Rise on same lode, above this level 16 ft. Main crosscut, No. 2 level Main crosscut, No. 5 level Main shaft .. .. .. .. .. I Digby and party's rise and stope, above No. 2 level Digby's rise, above No. 3 level .. .. ... O'Mara and party's stope, midway between Nos. 2 and 3 j levels Waitewheta level Main reef, No. 4 level, south of shaft Main shaft, which is 30 ft. in length by 9 ft. wide Temperature, in Degrees Fahrenheit. Volume of Air circulating. Dry Bulb. Wet Bulb. Cub. ft. 55 54 6,489 59 56 No reading. 62 ' 59 64 I 62 69 65 54 52 2,835 58 56 J No reading. 60 58 -r- „ Noneltaken 3,906 58 56 7,889 56 53 17,400 60 56 No reading. 70 66 62 59 J) j> >> >> j? j) t> )? ?) 5/11/09 y> .. : .. 7,030 70 2.080 78 16,740 j)

Temperature, in Degrees Fahrenheit. Date. Locality in Mine where Temperature taken. j Dry Bulb. ' Wet Bulb. circulating. OM Hauraki Mine. 14/9/10 220 ft. level, main drive 220 ft. level, face of stope 300 ft. level, drive on reef 300 ft. level, crosscut 400 ft. level, main crosscut 74 74 76 74 69 7] 71 74 72 67 Cub. ft. 1,914 No reading. )j M 1,892 1,575 ;> ;j 11/8/11 )j Kapanga Mine. 1,000 ft. level, drive west 500 ft. from chamber .. 1,000 ft. level, drive east 60 ft. from chamber 920 ft. level, drive north 940 ft. level, drive west 940 ft. level, rise 30 ft. above this level 900 ft. level, drive east 100 ft. from shaft 83 77' 76 77 77 76 83 70 75 76 76 75 No reading. j> )? )) )J )5 j j >>

:en .mes lommission.) j I Quantity of Date. ; Locality of Measurements. Air per Minute. Number of j Temperature. Men per i Remarks. Shift. Wet Bulb. Dry Bulb. [ j Ralpi 's Colliery. Ft. o o 1122 men, I 60 j 61 I 4 horses (59 61 48 men, 1 58 59 Total air, 50,386 cubic horse feet per minute. 5/9/11 No. 6 intake .. .. j 12,750 ,, Haulage-road intake .. j 21,620 ,, Taupiri, west drive, in- 16,016 take North return .. .. 33,600 South return .. .. 20,000 .. Total return, 53,600 cubic feet per minute

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EXHIBIT No. 13-continued. Particulars regarding Ventilation at Taupiri Coal-mines (Limited)— continued.

System of ventilation : 50 in. Sirocco fan, double inlet, W.G. 1-3.

Particulars Regarding Ventilation at Taupiri Coal-mines (Limited).

System of ventilation : Fan. Sanitary arrangements at mine : Pans. Boyd Bennie, Inspector of Mines.

Date. Locality of Measurements. Quantity of; Number of : Temperature. Air per Men per i Minute. Shift. | WetBulb . DryBu lb. Remarks. m /wtst/t/i fisifi 4 's\I //i Stan,"* t 1/9/11 . No. 4 dip No. 5 east, Couch and Stone's place Extended Colliery. Extended Volhery. 68 68| ; L I .. 69 70 Taken on top bench. o: 6/9/11 )) ); Walker and Parkin's stenton j Intake, west heading, "NTn R flfltslifip.t-, No. 4 dip No. 5 east, Couch and ; .. Stone's place Walker and Parkin's stenton Intake, west heading, 21,085 No. 5 flatsheet West level, No. 2 flatsheet | 17,234 . ■—■—— J 38,319 s .. .. 68 69 21,085 68 69 68 68| 70 69 236-8 ft. per man. )) ; j : j INO. o naraneet West level, No. 2 flatsheet t I 17,234 .. .. • .. 200 ft. per man. Return, west heading .. : 24,540 West level, return ' .. 18,148 *> .- - 42,688 Fan drift .. - ..: 56,625

(Taken by the Inspector of Mines.) Date of 'nspection. Quantity of Air per Minute. Locality where Measurement taken. Total I IZlZ, Number of Men per Shift. Tempes Wet Bulb. rature. Dry Bulb. .Raid's Colliery. O O 7/9/10 Main dip intake .. Ft. 26,479 Ft, 173 600 214-4 600 230-4 600 327-2 600 179-3 600 490-4 203-4 600 132 men 6 horses 78 men 3 horses 110 men 3 horses 38 men 1 horse 89 men 2 horses 26 men 85 men 4 horses 63 64 8/12/10 Main dip, No. 7, north return 18,525 71 5J Main intake, No. 6 level .. 27,146 11/5/11 Little dip intake .. 13,035 68 15/5/11 Main dip return and Little dip 17,160 6/7/11 Little dip, No. 5, south side .. North side main dip and Little dip 12.750 19,692 55 5/8/10 8/9/10 Extended. Colliery. 24*; 375 6,900 27,000 18.900 24.080 1,272 4,590 19,821 935 880 7.917 563 North dip intake No. 2 section, west intake Main return West side, No. 3 return North-west dip, main return North-west No. 6, 14 in. pipe West dip, No. 3 intake North-west No. 5, main return Kinston's bord Dunn and Wilson's bord North-west district, No. 5 intake .. Kirkham and Curley's bord 234-3 246-4 465-5 378 240-8 424 191-2 283-1 467-5 440 247-4 281-5 104 28 58 50 100 3 24 70 2 2 32 2 64 65 64 9/12/10 12/5/11 J? 68 68 7/7/11 )? si >> ji

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Boyd Bennie, Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 14. Particulars regarding Ventilation and Sanitation at the Hikurangi and Kiripaka Coal-mines.

(Taken by the Inspector of Mines.) Date of Inapec- | Locality where Measurement t tion. Date of Inspection. Locality where Meal takei ui. 1 Quantity of Air per Minute. Temperature. Number of Men ' System of „ ~ ,, on Shift. Ventilation. Totel. I'erMan. Wet Bulb. Dry Bulb. Per Horse. Temperature. Remarks. Northern Colliery. 12/11/10 No. 1 split intake ,, Nos. 3 and 4 split intake „ No. 5 split intake 21/1/11 19/6/11 „ Nos. 5 and 6 split intake „ Main return fan inlet Ft. Ft. 2,813 562-6 5 .. j Natural 6.355 706-1 9 2,640 377-1 7 74 75 No measurement .. .. .. -, 2.600 520 5 6,000 461-5 13 38.500 1,036-1, 600 36 men, 2 horses .. .. I Fan . . . . i Outside shade 80°. Air fresh. Nos. 5 and 6 districts not included, 14/11/10 No. 2 western area intake. „ No. 3 new dip intake 18/6/11 Hikurangi Colliery. 5,142 1 504-6,600 9 men, 1 horse .. .. j Natural T J 7 J .. I No measurement 6 men .. 78 ,, .. '• 4.008 I 222-6 18 .. i 5,980 | 119-5,600 45 men, 1 horse .. . . I Change-room, no bath. . . J Second shaft will be completed soon. . . i Another outlet shaft since provided. Kiripaka Colliery. 10/11/10 Main return 23/1/11 20/6/11 12,103 268 45 .. ... Fan .. No measurement (?) .. .. ,, ■ • (?) Change-room, no bath. Conditions good.

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EXHIBIT No. 15. Fatalities at Nightcaps Colliery, Nightcaps.

426

Date. Name of Person fatally injured. Age. Occupation. Shift. j Cause. Verdict. 25/10/00 1/10/01 Francis Winter James Quested Years. 45 26 Labourer .. i Afternoon .. Miner .. ; Day Fall of coal at face .. " Accidental death." Fall of timber and coal ,, from roof 1902 18/6/03 1904-6 21/6/07 Nil. Henry Currie Nil. William Duncan Patrick Welsh William Carson 24 49 52 .. 36 11 ■ - a Fireman and Day deputy Roadsman and repairer Ditto Fall of coal from roof . . ,, Poisoned by white-damp " That deceased died on the 21st June, 1907 ; that the cause of their from underground fire respective deaths, according to medical testimony and other evidence, was due to the effect of white-damp." Rider : The jury considers that due care was not exercised prior to the three deceased entering the mine, and recommends that safety-lamps be used for inspection; and that the Inspector of Mines insist upon the management complying with all the provisions of the Coal-mines Act in future. Nil. I 1908-11 Non-eatal Accidents, Nightcaps Colliery, Years 1906 to 1911 inclusive. 7th June, 1907.— Donald McMillan : Burns of face, breast, and arms by accidental ignition of blasting-powder in canister. 109 days off work. 13th December, 1910. —Matthew Spowart: Injury to right eye, with subsequent loss of sight; struck by piece of coal flying from pick-point. 134 days off work. Minor Accidents, Nightcaps Colliery. Year. Due to Use of and Due to Falls from Firing of Explosives, j [Roof and Sides. In Shafts and from Machinery. Eye Accidents. Strains, Sprains, &c. Totals. 1906 .. 1907 .. 1908 .. 1909 .. 1910 .. 1911 .. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 7 6 3 5 2 1 8 9 4 6 4 2 Totals 1 4 24 33 I

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427

jj, j£ Q. EBEN) Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 15—continued. Barometrical and Th ermomet rical Readings, Measurements, and Analyses of Air taken by E. R. Green, Inspector of Mines, at Nightcaps Colliery.

Date. Baro- ] meter. Thermometer. Degree Quantity of Air per Minute. Ill O. Anal; yTSis. CO. C8l 4 . Place of Observation. Dry Bulb. i Wet Bulb. Humidity. 5/2/08 3/4/08 SJ Ti )J ii JJ ;s 1} No. 1 district: No. 1 split .. • ■ • • • No. 2 split .. .. ■ • • • • • • • I * Fan „ Intake .. • • • ■ • • •• No. 2 district: Fan .. .. ■ ■ ■ • • • • • • • „ Intake .. • • ■ • • • • ■ •• j ,, Return . . .. • • • • • • • • ,. Two shafts, open upcasting .. .. • • Ordinary workings .. .. • • • • • • • • Warmest place off air near stoppings .. ' .. • ■ • • • • | At mine-mouth . . .. • • • • • • • • No. 1 district : At door .. .. • ■ • • • • • • ! Return air-course, at door main horse level intake. . „ At old dip intake .. .. • • •-.■." „ Main return air-course to fan shaft (taken from relief -pipe m stopping next to gob where 1907 fire blocked off) Middle lay-by near top of Carson's heading (outside stopping) (in pipe) No. 2 district: Main return air-course to fan shaft No. 1 district: Above ground . . ,, Underground .. ., At intake Inches. I ' • • " " * " i 70 80 53 Per Cent. Cubic ft. 10.000 4,500 16.700 14.400 9.600 14,000 10.000 4.000 12.500 7.500 5,000 i :::::■: :: 27/8/08 i :: :: ! :: I :: J? .. I 0-18 Nil J Nil. ! '. J 12-10 0-06 0-74 0-13 Nil Nil. j> ■• I 62 jj I )j 3? 29-59 70 110 58. 44 65 ».. 23/10/08 ■• 18/12/08 1/7/09 18,000 .. .. ., ,, old workings No. 2 district: ,, No. 1 district: Underground behind middle lay-by Outside mine (in-shade) No. 2 district: Underground No. 1 district: At intake Return air from working-miners to exhaust shaft fan direct.. 77 18,000 i 58" 70 54 I 16/12/10 13/3/H I 30-20 56 52 42-8 59-5 57 59-25 42-3 58-5 56 58-33 25,000 15 20 25 i . . i 20-4 0-45 Nil Nil. > 20-5 0-39 ! „ 20-8 0-36 j Nil I Nil. ! 20-7 0-34 „ I 19-84 0-17 I .. Nil. 20-25 0-20| .. 20-02 0-05 j .. : 20-37 0-05 .. ! 20-47 0-14 ! .. ; 0-02 20-31 0-12 j .. Nil. I »3 16,000 j; )) No. 2 district: At intake At entrance to exhaust fan drift underground j; 97 93 93 93 25/8/11 )> No. 1 district: Mine-mouth, 9-45 a.m. .... ,, Return airway from No. 1 dip . . ,, Return air from No. 2 dip Main return airway to upcast fan shaft .. 8,000 13,650 24,300 )> j j 93 90 86 )> )} „ At bottom fan upcast air-shaft No. 2 district: At return airway on horse-road Main return airway to upcast fan shaft .. i 60 58 54 51 59 56-5 52 46 11,655 j; jj 68 JJ Mine-mouth, noon

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EXHIBIT No. 16. Dredging Fatalities, Southern Mining District, 1909-11.

428

Date. Name of Person. Occupation. Shift. Dredge. Cause. Verdiot. i Head crushed between crown-wheel and spur-wheel while oiling machinery in motion Caught in belting (unwitnessed) Precipitated into river through breaking of ladder-hangers, on which he was leaning when bucket-belt was being righted on bottom tumbler Precipitated into water by electric shock when repairing cables with power on Died from heart-disease while engaged in diving operations Accidental. 3/6/09 16/1/10 9/2/10 James B. Patterson .. Winchman .. Patrick Gallagher . . Fireman Charles Smith . . ,, Afternoon .. Pringle and party's Night .. Enterprise Lowburn ! Night .. Earnscleugh No. 3 .. 15/11/10 John Kelly . . I Dredgeman.. 19/1/11 George Todd .. j Diver Day .. Rise and Shine No. 2 (sunken) i i Non-fatal Accidents on Dredges, Southern Mining District, 1909-11. Date. Name of Person injured. Occupation. i i j >ation. Dredge. Nature and Cause. Dredge. 9/11/09 — Neilson .. . . Fireman 15/11/09 Andrew Baird .. Winchman 14/1/10 W. Weir and J Hand . . Dredgemen Alexander Ross .. Dredgemaster 18/1/10 David Smith . . .. Blacksmith 31/1/10 ; 2/2/10 L. Hall .. .. Winchman 7/5/10 E. Reid .. .. Engineer 28/7/10 Albert Stuart.. .. Dredgeman 15/11/10 William Lainchbury .. „ John Love .. .. Winchman 17/5/11 William McAia '.. \ Dredgeman 23/5/11 Frank Kitto .. .. j Dredgemaster Golden Bed Charlton Creek .. New Roxburgh Jubilee Karaunui .. i Golden Beach No. 1 .. | New Golden Run .. | Riley's Revival .. Sailor's Bend .. ! Earnscleugh No. 3 .. I Olrig .. .. 1911 .. Golden Sun Crushed hand (subsequently amputated); caught between elevator-buckets and top tumbler in attempting to remove a stone while machinery in motion. Fractured rib through clothes catching in machinery. Sprained ankle • i Knned ladder-line to deck of dredge through stopper slipping. .. Broken bones of leg at ankle-joint; crushed between piece of machinery being hoisted on to dredge and hatchway of dredge. Loss of eye, by piece of steel off cold set. End of thumb taken off; caught in twist of ladder-line when shearing. . . | End of thumb taken off by elevator-roller falling on it. Injured knee while stepping out of coal-boat on to a rock. Four fingers burned off by electric shock while repairing cables when power on. Broken index finger of left hand; when screwing down brake-bolts of brake, strap gave way and crushed the finger. Wound of hand by piece of wire while working at boiler. Fractured ribs by falling down hold of dredge.

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429

Accidents at Quartz-mines, Southern Mining District, 1909-11.

E. B>. GrBEEN. Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 16— continued. Fatal and Non-fatal Accidents in Alluvial Mines, Southern Mining District, 1909-11.

I Date. I Name of Person. Occupation. Claim. Nature and Cause. 23/4/09 1910 1/3/11 Thomas Kitto .. | Miner .. Nil. Martin Trainor .. „ Kitto and party's . . Fracture of leg ; struck by piece of cement rolling from face. 17/4/11 Joseph Bates and Frank Miners G. Smith W. H. Fortune . . Miner . . James Morrin .. „ Arrow Falls . . . . Fracture of leg ; struck by loose stone following him after walking down face of paddock 6 ft. high. Round Hill . . .. j Fatal. Drowned in paddock by being caught in suction-pipe. Verdict: " Accidental death." Rider : That no sinking of second lifts be done at night. Fortune and Sons . . j Fracture of leg by fall of earth in claim while inserting a charge of gelignite. Roxburgh Amalgamated . . ] Bruised and inflamed cartilage of knee : twisted when getting out of sticky clay in ! jet-hole. 23/5/11 8/6/11

Date. Name of Person injured. Occupation. Mine. Nature and Cause. 1/3/11 ] Frank Jefierys 20/4/11 J W. J. Stevenson i 19/6/11 i George Carson 8/7/11 J J. Mann Miner . . Engine-driver Miner . . 55 • ■ Carrick Golden Point Cromwell Mount Highlay . Cromwell . . J Crushed ringers. J Injured knee ; struck by rim of fly-wheel of gas-engine when stopping wheel aftei engine had been stopped. ! Injured thumb ; ran a splinter of wood into it when putting up a set of timber. i Fracture of fibula ; was firing fourteen holes in face, and one prematurely explodec when he had got back about 50 ft. from face. .. I Injuries to head and arms; fell over cliff alongside tram-line. . . ! Loss of forefinger of right hand by premature explosion of gelignite when chaiging •< shot. . . ] Cut fingers; struck by flying material from premature explosion of gelignite. „ i James Ferguson 8/8/11 I Andrew Eeid 3) • • JS ■ ■ „ ! Sydney Waide Trucker

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430

EXHIBIT No. 17. Fatalities in Kaitangata Mines.

Date. Name of Person fatally injured. ; Age. Occupation. Shift. Cause. Verdict. Cause. ' I Castle Hill Colliery. 1900-02 3/7/03 1904 22/2/05 Nil. George Hill . . Nil. Robert S. Jordan Y Years. 23 Sean 23 Miner .. Day Mine-manager . . ; ,, Fall of coal from roof .. ' • • ' " Accidental death." 15/8/05 ! Robert Donaldson 20 20 Trucker . . ,, Suffocated while investigating under- I ,, ground fire at foot of upcast air-shaft Concussion of brain ; struck by run- j " Accidental death." Rider : The jury recommend thai away box on heading ; died 16/8/08 [ the company should keep a stretcher and a supply o: bandages and blankets below in each mine. 1906-11 j Nil. I 1900-03 25/10/04 2/2/05 Nil. Adam Thomson Allan McKinnie . I 60 26 Kaitangata Colliery. j Miner . . Afternoon Fall of coal from roof .. .. " Accidental death." Fall of coal from roof and side (on a ,. fault) Fall of coal at face while brushing roof " Accidental death." Rider : The jury recommends thai in future a stretcher and surgical appliances be kept ir some suitable place underground. I Suffocated by foul gases in return air- j " Accidental death." ) way while prospecting 55 - ' 15 5/2/06 Alexander Bennie 51 - Day .. 8/11/06 Frederick Anderson William Lee . . Nil. John McGhee .. 47 24 49 Underviewer . . ,, Colliery engineer ,, 1907-10 15/5/11 Miner . . Afternoon Fall of coal from roof (a smooth vertical I " That deceased was killed by a fall of coal in Kaitangata parting and rough parting in roof) Mine." Rider : That, in our opinion, three or more men working together increases the danger. Fall of stone from roof .. .. " That deceased was killed by a fall of stone in Kaitangata Mine." Rider: That Deputy Statham had erred ir the dangerous nature of the stone to th( mine-manager, and we are also of the opinion that a deputy's duties should be more clearly defined. (Th< verdict was " Accidental death.") 17/8/11 Joseph Carson 25 Repairer and eer- Day tificated secondclass mine-man-ager

431

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EXHIBIT No. 17— continued. Serious (Non-fatal) Accidents at Kaitangata Colliery, 1899-1911.

OS Date. " i Name of Person injured. Age. Occupation. j Number of ] Days off work. Nature of Accident and Cause. #. 16/10/99 William McCormack.. Years. Certificated mine-manager and acting machine coal-cutting expert 30 ■ Burns of arms by slight ignition of gas in new section, Telford's heading. 1900 7/8/01 ' 1902 6/3/03 6/10/03 10/2/04 Nil. Edward Mackie Nil. J. Beardsmore J. Alexander Chailes Penman Miner .. Fractured thigh by fall of coal from roof. 50 5 3 Deputy Miner Horsedriver 108 121 322 Bruised back, resulting in rotation of two vertebrae, by fall of stone from roof. Fracture of right humerus by fall of stone from roof in low place. Injury to eye, necessitating removal of same, by dirt flying from face of hammer while drifting a prop. Fracture of leg, by fall of roof and side by boxes getting off road and bringing down three sets of timber. Fracture of leg below knee by fall of coal while robbing a pillar. 11/3/04 John Burns 17 4/5/04 j 1905 | 25/7/06 10/10/06 William Cairns Nil. N. McAllister Charles Milne John McCaughern William Proctoi James Hill 50 45 28 51 32 33 Miner Assistant manager Repairer Deputy Underviewer Miner 224 143 61 61 261 49 305 314 626 87 28 40 191 155 46 ! Severe burns about face, hands, and body, by small fall of heated sand and live coal from ) brickwall fire stopping at foot of engine plane. Burns of face and arms by ignition of fire-damp at No. 8 crossing. | Severe burns of face, arms, and body, by ignition of fire-damp at surface while sinking air-shaft (occurrence due to lighting a cigarette). Burns of face, neck, and arms, by ignition of fire-damp at surface while sinking air-shaft (occurrence due to lighting a cigarette). Injury to spine ; jammed by runaway rake of boxes. Burns of face and arms by an ignition of gas at spontaneous fire in No. 3 bord, No. 19 dip section. Fracture of both legs ; run down by a rake of full boxes on horse-road (permanent disablement). Fracture of left arm by fall of head coal. ) Burns of face and arms by slight explosion of fire-damp while shot-firing in winch-heading j. section. Wound and subsequent loss of right eye ; struck by flying coal from working-face. Fracture of arm and loss of fore and little fingers ; struck by sliding fall of coal from roof and side in low pillar-workings. Slight wound of scalp and sprain of knee ; struck by a piece of coal falling from roof. Fractured collarbone ; jammed by rake of boxes. Fractured right leg : jammed between box and prop by sprag coming out when pushing full box of coal out of his place. Fractured ribs ; crushed against prop by stone falling from roof while repairing on Barclay's stone drive. 17/12/06 j " i David Coultei 35 1/7/07 16/1/08 James Fibbes William Forrester 31 25 Trucker 9/6/08 27/1/09 2/3/09 Robert Ferguson Charles King Samuel Newburn William Oliver Thomas Dixon John Heard 60 35 36 33 55 58 Repairer Miner Deputy and Shot-firer .. Miner 28/5/09 8/12/09 ,, 7/11/10 17/1/11 7/7/11 Charles H. Stubbs .. Joseph Gilmour John Hale 50 28 36 Trucker Miner 21/7/11 William Christian 58 Repairei

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432

Number of Minor Accidents is Coal-mines, Southern Mining District.

EXHIBIT No. 17— continued. Serious (Non-fatal) Accidents at other Collieries, Southern Mining District.

Bate. Name of Person injured. Age. Occupation. Number of Days off work. Name, of Mine. Nature of Accident and Cause. 27/4/09 2/11/09 J. C. Campbell . . j William Nolan .. ■ I • • ! Years. 29 I Miner .. 50 „ .. J 215 80 I Homebush . . Clarke's .. Hernia, due to lifting full box of coal on to roadway. Compound fracture of bridge of nose and injuries to eyes and hand, by explosion of gunpowder while tamping a shot in opencast lignite-pit. Strain of heart, due to lifting full box of coal on to roadway. Bruised back ; struck by piece of coal falling from roof. 18/1/10 9/4/10 William Long John Stevenson.. i i 36 ! .. .. 49 „ .. ■' ! 87 114 Mount Somers ■ Allandale ..

Year. Kaitangata Mine. ] Other Mines. I Total. 1909 1910 1911 I 49 38 35 r 41 28 33 ! 90 66 68 Totals 122 102 224

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433

EXHIBIT No. 17— continued. Barometer and Thermometer Readings and Measurements and Analyses of Air, Kaitangata Colliery.

(Readings taken by B. R. Green, Inspi ictor of Mines ; mine-air am lysed by the Dominion Analy it, Wellington.) Date. Place of Observation. Barometer. Thermometer. Dry Wet Bulb. ! Bulb. Degree Quantity of Number of Air per of Men Humidity. Minute. on Shift. Analysis. O. i N. co 2 . CO. 0H t . i Inches. Per Cent. Cub. ft. i 8/5/07 No. 6 stopping „ Main return near bottom of upcast shaft 22/5/07 Intake at split of air „ Return near foot of upcast air-shaft .. „ Near roof in Hird's bord ,, Working-face, Hird's bord, breast-high „ Near floor, Hird's bord „ McGhee's bord —face ,, North side return .. „ No. 8 bord south (Stubb's) . . „ No. 2 tunnel, opposite old workings 17/8/08 Barometer fallen 0-55" in twenty-four hours. ,, At mine-mouth (pit instrument) ,, ,, (my instrument) ,, Barclay's drive at foot No. 2 heading „ At No. 3 heading .. „ No. 4 flatsheet „ No. 5 flatsheet, return air-course „ No. 5 level intake air-course ,, No. 7 flatsheet „ Main return air-course to fan shaft 29/9/08 At intake 28/10/08 „ South level extension main seam „ No. 3 dip east . . „ No. 3 dip off No. 3 heading. . ,. Main return from No. 20 dip and No. 3 heading 4/3/09 At split, Barclay's .. „ Main extension .. . . .. 24/4/09 At intake 22/6/09 „ 18/8/09 .. 9/3/10 18/5/10 10/6/10 During inspection by workers' inspectors a stopping was found leaking in No. 1 heading district; the miners working there were withdrawn and the stopping restored same evening .... ! 1-11 0-43 0-17 0-27 0-43 0-49 0-34 0-31 0-25 - • 0-27 0-66 0-06 0-85 2-03 1-58 1-48 1-15 1-02 0-49 0-06 43+6 correction) 49 63 I .. 67 71 : 75 70 i 76 ..69 30-30 62 72 67 66 72 (air ; here co mbined) ! ! 29-07 4,000 5,000 30.000 30.240 30,240 15.000 15,000 30.000 30,240 30,000 32.500 32.500 100 I ] 0-55 0-41 0-43 0-015 0-015 0-015 1-27 1-40 1-71 i 10

0.^4

434

EXHIBIT No. 17— continued. Barometer and Thermometer Readings, etc.— continued.

Thermometer. Analysis. Date. Place of Observation. Barometer - Dry Wet Bulb. Bulb. Degree of Humidity. Quantity of Air per Minute. Number of Men on Shift. O. N. co 2 . ! CO. CH,. Inches. Per Cent. Cub. ft. 31,850 15,000 15,000 30,900 10.000 24/6/10 At intake 10/8/10 No. 1 main split, south side.. „ No. 2 main split, north side.. „ Main return air at bottom of upcast 4/10/10 Return air-course from No. 1 pillaring section, Oliver's dip •- •• 0-22 0-11 0-46 0-55 0-49 0-34 0-29 0-54 0-36 1-10 1-52 1-57 0-85 0-80 a a )j j; „ At bottom of upcast air-shaft ii a ii ...... 6/10/10 No. 3 heading at intake to No. 1 section, Oliver's level .. ,, At intake No. 1 bord, No. 1 section .. ,, Return air from McGhee's level, being intake for No. 4 bord, No. 1 section ,, Taken from ladder 10 ft. from floor in No. 1 bord, Rogers's place 6/4/11 At intake ,, Barclay's drive split „ Extension and winch-heatling split Rise pillars, McGhee's section ,, Entrance to McGhee's level, being return air from workmen in south extension split Ditto ,, Outlet, McGhee's level to upcast „ Oliver's dip, being return air from Barclay's drive split after ventilating No. 21 dip and Oliver's dip „ Bottom of main upcast air-shaft, being return air from whole of underground workings 27/7/11 Office at mine, 8 a.m. „ Cabin South main extension, air-split to north side — ,, Return from winch heading at top of No. 1 heading .. „ Mundy's dip, with a blower of compressed air „ McGhee's level, rise pillars (1) (2) (3) .. ., At return airway from Barclay's drive split — „ At No. 3, or bottom lift .. ■ „ At main return to upcast air-shaft, where all return air I gathered \ 59-80 73-0 75-0 i 58-50 69-50 73-50 914 82 91| 8 8 20-71 20-62 21-00 77-22 77-32 10,000 77-82 0-27 0-02 0-89 73-0 72-25 96 0-29 0-02 0-88 30 52 1 i 29.250 16,000 14.000 .. 75 6 19-31 19-88 0-62 0-43 1-36 1-18 19-85 19.24 20-21 0-44 0-68 0-35 1-14 1-73 0-61 19-65 0-63 1-03 56 56 48 52 56 75 70 66 75 78 771 66 64 73 76f 76 78 88 89 92 92 •• 67 72 71* ■ 66 70 69f 94 89 89 1 ..

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435

EXHIBIT No. 17— continued. Barometer and Thermometer Readings, etc.— continued.

E. R. Green, Inspector of Mines.

Date. Place of Observation. Barometer. Dry Bulb. Thermometer. Wet Bulb. Degree Quantity of of Air per Humidity. Minute. Number o. N. f Analysis. co 2 . CO. I on Shift. CH 4 . At return airway from Barclay's drive split — -continued. Inches. Top lift, No. 21 dip Return from No. 21 dip Pillars. McAllister's level (1) (2) (3) •• At intake Nos. 21 and 19— At cabin again (1) . . .. .. • • ! „ (2) ' .. Surface lamp-cabin Office again. 3 p.m. .. .. .. • • i v • • Mine-mouth, 8-30 a.m. Cabin underground at juet outside two main splits At return airway from winch heading down No. 1 heading! Main extension air-return (supplies extension Mundy's and ; No. 5 dip sections at return from No. 5 dip to McGhee's j level) McGhee's level at intake to rise pillar places .. Rise pillar places off McGhee's level .. .. ...I No. 21 dip, return air .. .. ■ ■ .... No. 2 lift, pillars off Oliver's dip .. .. Main return airway to upcast air-shaft .. .. i I 27/7/11 ! 64 64 69 67 64 ! 62 I 62 67 65 ! 62 Per Cent. 82 88 89 89 88 Cub. ft. j ■ ! » 5 8 j 20-17 20-27 2010 20-08 I 20-59 i 20-20 20-00 2017 i j ! ; i I. 0-27 0-28 0-26 0-41 j 0-27 0-30 0-33 0-38 J , i ■ ■ ;; ;> 23/8/11 57 57 52 65 47 55 71 70 ; 55 I 54 i 47 60 I 52 ! 69 1 68 85 82 69 72 56 81 89 89 30,550 it 55 2.000 15,000 1-42 0-21 ! ! ■ ! 0-81 0-82 0-64 102 0-76 0-74 - 71 78J 64| 68 70J 69 76| i 62 66 i 68J 89 89 85 89 89 2,000 8,000 8.750 ?; 31,510 ,. On return to cabin at main air-split —inside . . „ ,, outside In cabin below .. .. .. .. ■ ■ | 3045 At mine-mouth .. .. .. ■ • .. .. 581 55 i 55J J 52 82 81 >? 46 41 ' 66 I

C.—4.

436

E. R. Green, Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 17a. Fatalities at other Coal-mines in Southern Mining District.

Date. Name of Person fatally injured. Age. Occupation. Colliery. Shift, Cause. Verdict. 1900 4/9/01 1902-3 28/3/04 Nil. Walter Guttery Nil. Frank Wilson years. Miner ., .. H. B. Runaway sailor. . Taratu t Day .. Suffocated by fall of dirt at mine-mouth " Accidental death." " That deceased met his death in Taratu Coal Company's shaft through the bucket in its ascent breaking a pipe which fell on him. The evidence before the jury leads them to conclude that deceased had exercised carelessness in not steadying the bucket away from shaft-bottom, and also that the management had been negligent in not having the steam-pipes raised or the midwall brought down below the pipes." " Accidental death." „ .. Struck on head by broken steam-pipe in prospectingshaft 10/10/04 Thomas Poster William Williams Nil. Edward Matthews .. Charles E. Riddle .. 17 J Trucker .. Allandale Miner .. .. McPherson's.. ! Miner .. .. Green's I Owner .. Albury • • . Afternoon .. j Slipped on rail while trucking, causing inflammation of sheath of tendon of left knee ; blood - poisoning supervened, proving fatal on 1/11/04. (Tuberculous) „ .. Fall of coal in opencast j> 1/2/05 1906-8 18/11/09 5/2/10 Day .. Fall of coal at face Before starting Suffocated by black-damp . . work " Suffocation from misadventure." 20/7/10 Hugh Patterson Alexander McLuckie .. j 63 Winding - engine Springfield . . driver 39 Miner .. .. I McGilp's Day .. I Absent-mindedly fell down winding-shaft ,, .. Fall of coal from rough parting in roof Afternoon . . Fall from roof caused by an unseen lipe (or slip) in a fault " Accidental death." 4/3/11 . 20/7/11 James R. Walker 32 „ .. .. Freeman's .. " Accidental death." Rider: The jury considered that it would be to the-safety of miners when extracting pillars if two men were employed together. " Accidental death." 7/9/11 Thomas Patterson 48 „ .. .. Homebush .. Day .. Fall of stone from a greasy back in roof 48

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437

B. R. Green, Inspector of Mines.

Exhibit No. 17a— continued. Summary of Fatal Accidents at all Coal-mines, Southern Mining District.

Causes. Other Causes. Totals. Number of j Men killed. Year. Due to Use and Due to Falls In Shafts Firing of from Roof and from Explosives. and Side. Machinery. 1899 (from October) 1900 1901 .. 1902 1903 1904 1905 .. 1906 1907 .. 1908 1909 1910 1911 .. * " ! I i 2 2 1 2 1 1 5 j J 1 1 1 2 1 (2 men killed) 1 (3 men killed) 1 i 1 2 2 3 4 2 1 1 2 5 1 2 2 3 4 3 3 1 2 5 Totals .. j 15 15 2 2 6 23 23 26 26

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438

EXHIBIT No. 17a.-continued. Thermometrical Readings and Measurements and Analyses of Air.

Date. Place of Observation. Thermometer. -,, „ , Degree ,. ... Number s . Quantity of Air , -T, — i of -.J , of Men on Dry Wet Humidity. P<>r Minute. gMft Bulb. Bulb. I 1 Analysis. 0. CO. C0 2 . CH 4 . 3/6/08 4/9/08 At intake No. 2 No. 1 mine, entrance At intake. . Return airway Dip intake, after leakage Surface No. 6 dip return No. 5 dip pillars No. 3 pillars No. 1 mine, intake .. Freetm ;n's Colliery, Abbotsford. Per Cent. Cub. ft. 14,000 6,036 12,000 7,500 2,625 j 55 60 62 64 62 54 i 53 33 33 29/12/08 11,000 33 33 33 18/5/09 31/8/09 53 At entrance Working-places .. .. .. . No. 2 mine, intake Bottom No. 4 dip No. 5 dip.. At intake... No. 1 mine, mine-mouth No. 5 dip.. Lower dip workings, vicinity of fire area No. 6 dip.. Mine-mouth No. 2 intake Working-places Mine-mouth Working-places .. .. At intake. . -» 56 65 68 70 56, 64 .. 12,250 15,000 5,000 8.000 i 35 . •. ! 10.000 28/10/09 69 56 64 56 60 5/1/10 I ■ • i 35 29/12/10 21/3/11 7/9/11 Surface, 8.30 a.m. (in shade) Travelling-way Near haulage entrance Intake airway at No. 8 dip split Intake No. 7 dip split (No. 8 airway only) 44 54-J 52 51 53! 42 84 51| 83 50 86 49 86 52 90 42 51| 50 49 52 10,000 20,000 20,000 8,250 9,000 a 11 11 i

439

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o ri^ 7/9/11 No. 7 dip, Knox's place .. .. .. .. .. 65 ' „ Matchett and Brockie's place . . .. .. .. 71 Lay-by, bottom No. 7 dip (left side). . .. .. .. 69! ,, No. 7 dip (right side) Knox and another .. .. .. 71 „ „ ,, Westfield and another . . .. .. 69! No. 6 dip, intake .. .. ... .. .. .. 69J ,, ,, Jackson's pillar face, at bottom .. .. .. 74| ,, , ,, at stenton, 13 yards back .. 73 D. Smith's place . . .. .. .. . . .. 72| ,, Return airway from No. 6 dip . . .. .. .. 71 ,, At undercast to fan upcast air-shaft, where all return air is 69 J gathered together Ditto .. .. .. .. .. .'. .. 71| ,, Surface, 1.30 p.m. (in shade) .. .. .. .. 63 (in sun) .. .. .. . . .. 67! 64 94 70 94 69 97 70! 9T 69 97 681 94 74 97 72! --> 7 71! 94 70j 96! 69 96! 71 96! 50 631 53! 40" 5,950 5,950 19,800 13 5 6 1 20-13 20-05 20-64 0-32 0-17 0-19 Saddle Hill No. 1 Col lliery, Saddle Hill. 30/10/07 Working-places 2/9/08 Mclntyre's section.. .. .. .. .. .. 68 ,, Mine-mouth .. ... .. .. .. ..66 30/12/08 At entrance » .. .. '.:. .. ..58 ,, Working-places .. .. .. .. .. .. 64 6/8/09 „ .. ... ... .. .. .. 56-67 26/10/09 Mine-mouth .. .: .. .. .. .. 52 ,, Working-faces, vicinity of waste .. - .. .. . . 66 ., Return air to furnace .. .. , .. .. .. 70 r, 30/12/09 Stopping outside waste .. .. .. .. .. 70 3/2/10 Mine-mouth .. .-. , . .... .. 66 ,, Working-places .. .. . . .. .. .. 56 6/9/11 I Outside mine-mouth, 9.30 a.m. .. .. .. .. 49 ,, At cabin, being return airway .. .. .. .. 62 ,, At top Bryce's heading, in pillars .. .. .. .. 64 . At further-in pillar (Mitchell's) .. .. .. .. 64 ,, ! Outside (in shade), 11.30 a.m. .. .. .. .. ! 52 ■ * * 1 -■ ■• I 0-38 . I 44 68 60! 90* 63 94" 62! 90! 46|- 65! 7,700 I 20-07 20-42 0-18 0-12 Saddle Hill No. 2 Col lliery, Saddle Hill. 30/10/07 Return air-course . . . . . . . . . . 15/5/08 At intake.. 2/9/08 ,, Working-places . . . . . . . . .. . . 56 33/12/08 Outside .. .. .. .. .. .. .. 58 Furnace ventilation 5.200 7,200 i 0-91 0-0-;

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440

EXHIBIT No. 17a—continued. Thermometer Readings, etc.— continued.

E. R. Green, Inspector of Mines.

Bate. Place of Observation. Thermometer. Dry Wet Bulb. Bulb. Degree „ ... ... Number of ! Quantity of Air of Men on — Humidity, j P el ' M >™ te - Shift. O. Analysis. CO. CO 2 . CH 4 . Saddle Hill No. 2 Colliery, Saddle Hill —contim ed. I ° j PerCent. 30/12/08 I Working-places .. .. .. .. .. .. 60 19/5/09 J At intake.. .. .. .. .. .. .... 6/9/11 I Outside, noon (in shade) .. .. .. .. .. 54J 47| 59 ,. j In pillar workings, Manderson's place .. .. 64 62 88 ,, J At McEwan's heading, Miller's place, where trying to get roof 67 65 88^ down to smother incipient fire ,, Riley's heading, where W. Hollows working ; maximum at face, : 64 62 88 air from McEwan's heading „ Minimum in air-course on roadway 4 yards back from face .. 61 59 88 ,, Main return airway to upcast fan shaft .. .. .. 61J 59J 88 ,, : At intake.. Cub. ft. 9,100 8,000 19-27 j 0-64 19-78 0-24 15,000 (fan ventilation) I 25 20-25 0-25 •■ I ■ I I I Jubilee Colliery, Saddle Hill. 0-02 30/10/07 I Return air-course 3/8/09 Air return at furnace .. .. .. .. .. 64 ., Pillar-workings .. .. .. .. .. .. 68 30/12/08 Intake .. ,, Working-places .. .. .-. .. .. .. 58 27/10/09 Mine-mouth .. .. .. .. .. .. 62 ,, Working-places .. .. .. .. .. .. 64 6/9/11 : Mine-mouth (in shade), 2 p.m. .. .. .. ..52 47 69 „ At return airway to upcast furnace shaft .. .. .. 58| 57 89 J ,, At pillar working-places on Christie's boundary .. 60 58 88 ,, Other pillar places.. .. .. .. .. .. 56 54 87 Surface again .. .. .. .. .. .. 53 48J 71| 5,250 12,500 20-50 •• 0-49 0-19 Homebush Colliery, Glentunnel. 6.000 J 6,000 4,500 20-45 20-12 0-005 0-16 0-30 9/12/08 J No. 1 mine, at intake ,, No. 2 mine, dip section .. .. ,, Engine seam .... .. .. .. .. .. 11/9/11 Surface (in shade) .. .. .. .. .. .. 68 55 43 ,, In dip pillar places, air return .. .. .. .. 66 63 83 Return airway .. .. .. .. .. ... 62 60 88 Surface again .. .. .. .. .. .. 66* 53 41

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EXHIBIT No. 18. West Coast Inspection District. —List of Fatal and Serious Accidents, Millerton Mine.

441

Name. Date. Cause of Accident. Verdict. 1905-1907. J. Leece FATAL. 7/6/07 j Truck knocking out prop, causing roof to fall .. j Accidental. I C. Lewis C. Gray J. Young .. F. Smith D. McKenzie J. Tiplady.. SERIOUS. 5/7/06 | Eall of coal at face. 3/7/06 I Severe sprain through slipping on flatsheet. 10/7/06 Eull tub running over him, slipped on rail. 16/8/06 ' Pall of coal in face. 17/12/06 Hanging shot coming away and crushing him. 8/1/07 ' Kicked by a horse. 1901 to September, 1911. J. Maloney C. Forrest.. T. Maloney E. J. Quinlan J. H. E. Campbell . . W. Young FATAL. 24/9/08 Fall of stone from edge of goaf .. . . Accidental. 2/2/09 Fall of coal at face .. .. .. 9/3/10 „ „ i 23/11/10 „ „ i 7/3/10 Runaway truck .. .. .. .. ! ,, ; 17/3/11 Fall of coal back on the road.. .. .. ,, R. Arbuckle P. O'Neill J. Pfeffer SERIOUS. 4/6/08 Fall of coal at face. I 9/1/09 " " West Co. lSt Inspection District.—Particulars regarding Ventilation. Locality. Height in Feet. Width in Feet. it * Area. o $ g Quantity. u . !"3 '3 ,a Cubic -g«-, % Feet £ W Man. Remarks. Westpi wt Stool ton Mine, Wi Ft. I Ft. 44 140 istport Stoi ■■kton Ct >al Co', vpany (. Limited). B tunnel — Circulating around brattice and first working-place 11 4 I Cub. ft. 6,160 9 1 474 'There is an abundance of air circulating through this section, the return readings showing 80,200 cubic feet in fan drift. Leaving last workingplace for return C tunnel — Intake East split in fan drift 6,160 11 8 88 70 ' -i 8 61 12 9 96 49J 315 155 30,240 7,700 I i m 7,200 The capacity of the fan is about 20,000 cubic feet per minute, the powerful natural ventilation accounting for the extra quantity circulating. West split, return .. 8 12 | 96 75 58 I 6 368 Lonely section — Intake, Lonely dip.. Intake, overcast Return fan drift Intake, second west 10 5 5| 6 Mill, •ton M\ ine, Wi it/port Goal Com my (Li, nited). [22,862 cubic feet entering Lonely section. 1 Air afterwards goes to Lonely [ district. /This intake reading must have been taken just at the time the south heading door was standing open for the, purpose of running trucks through, I thus short-circuiting the air \ to the return, or else the quantity would have read very near the return quantity, the stoppings along the road being in excellent con- , dition. (The intake for this section is i through the gob. (Section not working. 10 6| 7 51 100 32J 38J 33 110 365 680 250 11,000! 11,8621 26,180 8,250 110 162 ii Mangatina west ingIntake, first workingplace Ean drift, return .. if 8 91 76 115 8,740) 19,760 j 395* 46 I No. 10 pillars 2 2 4 .1,080 4,320 16 Main return, big fan, Mine Creek 7 12 84 1,416 119,025 216 Seddt mville State M Wine (New 11,550 32,400 'lealant Goveri iment). West section, return 24 1 402 Entering return after leaving last working-place. Cave district 32 3 736 J. New 'on, Inspector of Mines. • Calculated on retu quantity.

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442

EXHIBIT No. 18-continued. West Coast Inspection District. —Analyses of Mine-air Samples taken by Inspector Newton.

J. Newton, Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 19. West Coast Inspection District. —List of Fatal and Serious Accidents, 1905-1907.

Analysis of Mine-air. Mine. Locality. 0. N. CO.J. CH 4 . Blackball I'apai oa Brunner Point Elizabeth, State Return Main return Return airway Main return Dip, No. 1 section, return Goaf, No. 2 section Return airway, No. 2 section C tunnel west, return .. Lonely fan drift Return airway Halton's place No. 10 bank, west section 0-50 0-63 0-50 0-44 0-50 0-65 1-03 0-24 0-25 0-64 0-48 0-25 0-82' 20-00 19-70 19-92 20-10 19-85 19-44 19-10 20-10 19-98 19-84 20-25 20-24 19-45 79-50 79-67 79-58 79-46 79-65 79-51 79-87 79-66 79-77 79-52 79-27 79-51 79-73 3; 040 Stockton Millerton Ironbridge Coalbrookdale Seddonville Gibson and Harris's mine..

Name. Date. Cause of Accident. Verdict. Point Elizabeth State Mine. FATAL. S. W. Whitesmith . . 23/5/07 Caught in travelling-belt Accidental. SERIOUS. J. Connolly .. 16/5/05 Fall of coal at face. J.Kyle .. 17/10/06 Falling between trucks. R. Wilson . . 30/10/06 j Fall of coal at face. J. Kershaw .. 5/11/06 : Jig prop carrying away. T. Jackson . . 1/7/07 .j Fall of coal at face. Tyneside Mine. FATAL. W. J. Morns .. 27/9/06 Killed by falling prop at face .. j Accidental. Blackball Mine. FATAL. W. Meadowcroft .. . 11/3/05 Strained back ; died three months after Accidental. Paparoa Mine. FATAL. W. Hairobin .. ' 7/11/07 > Fall of coal at face .. j Accidental. Puponga Mine. FATAL. J. Muirhead .. 26/1/05 Runaway trucks .. ! Accidental. SERIOUS. F. Lomas .. .. 12/6/05 j Run over by truck ; jig-chain breaking. Seddonville State Mine. Nil. Westport Stockton Mine. Nil.

443

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EXHIBIT No. 19— continued. West Coast Inspection District.—List of Fatal and Serious Accidents, 1908 to September, 1911.

West Coast Inspection District. —Fatal and Serious Accidents at West Coast Mines from January, 1905, to September, 1911.

Name. Date. Cause of Accident. I Verdiot. Point Elizabeth State Mine. FATAL. R. Lumsden .. 26/5/08 Fall of stone in face .. .. , , Accidental. J. Mclntyre .. 25/1/10 Runaway truck .. . . . . .. ,, A. J. Davis .. 17/4/09 Run over by truck .. .. .. .. „ F. Fletcher .. 12/10/09 Fall of stone from roof .. .. .. „ G. Downs .. 7/2/10 Fall of stone and coal at face .. .. ,, J. H. Johnston .. 3/10/10 Fall of coal at face J. Dunn .. 9/1/11 Explosion of fire-damp .. .. .. „ T. Whyte .. 3/3/11 Fall of roof at face .. T. McGahan .. 3/8/11 Fall of coal from corner of pillar .. .. „ G. Fullick .. 2/9/11 Fall of stone drawing timber .. .. .. „ SERIOUS. J. Tyson .. .. 27/7/09 Runaway truck. J. Birch .. .. 12/10/09 , P. Rodgers - .. „ C. Rodgers (slight) .. ,, Same accident, caused by a fall of stone. E. Clouson (slight) .. „ I J. Harrison (slight).. „ ' • T. Braithwaite .. 8/10/10 Fall of stone. Seddonville State Mine. SERIOUS. G. Fleming .. | 28/8/08 | Caught by rope on curve wheel, Westport Stockton Mine. FATAL. J. Marx .. .. | 13/3/10 | Crushed leg between trucks ; died thirty days after | Accidental. SERIOUS. J. W. Marshall .. 3/9/09 Fall from bins. ' E. Hartwick .. 17/12/09 Crushed with electric-brake car. D. Roberts .. 17/10/10 Fall of coal at face. Paparoa Mine. SERIOUS. R n't? 0 * I Same accident. Explosion of fire-damp. F. Hamilton .. 15/9/10 Collapse of timber at face. North Brunner Mine. FATAL. T. Compton .. j 13/8/10 | Runaway truck .. .. .. .. i Accidental. Tyneside Mine. SERIOUS. D. Gainey .. | 9/1/08 Fall of stone at face. |

Name of Mine. Number of Fatal Acoidents. Number of Men killed. Number of Serious Accidents. Number of Men injured. Point Elizabeth .. Tyneside North Brunner .. Blackball Paparoa Denniston Millerton Westport Stockton Seddonville 12 1 1 5 1 9 7 . 1 12 1 1 5 1 10 7 1 8 1 1 2 12 8 3 1 I 12 1 1 3 12 9 3 1 1 Puponga Brunner i 1 Total 38 39 37

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444

EXHIBIT No. 19— continued. West Coast Inspection District.—Number of men employed.

J. Newton, Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 20. Particulars regarding Ventilation of West Coast Mines.

Mine. Above Ground. Below Ground. Total. 'oint Elizabeth — No. 1 section No. 2 section Yneside Proprietary Jorth Brunner blackball 35 52 41 46 46 30 130 216 42 85 192 43 165 268 83 131 238 73 'aparoa )enniston — Ironbridge .. Coalbrookdale lillerton Vestport Stockton ieddonville I ) 155 I I 221 235 436 120 70 42 I (i " 113 54 23 20 549 174 93 62 50 (approx.) 'uponga Imaller mines .. Total 2,497

;en James Newton, Inspector of Mines). ames cw1 on, .nspeotor oi Locality. Height Width in in Area. Feet. Feet. i? 6 \ o d S a Cubic |g|i Quantity. a a g«§ *£? !> a ; Snco i-H W Man. Remarks. Point Elizab •ih Slat \e Mine (x\ 5th Septe; > Cub. ft. 52,535 14,250 .Z. Got vernma '■)■ (Ta Ft. 66| 57 sen on tnber, 1 911.) Intake, No. 1 section.. Intake, No. 3 west district 7 (i 9} Ft. 790 250 "r. II /This air passes through the west flat section, in which there are no men working, down to the workings in the extended dip, and is joined by a 2U(i sll Pply OI fresh air from the intake. This quantity travels round Mir "working, then through the east flat section up through the cast level into the main return. (This air is split from the main 1 010 ' intake and ventilates the i second and lirst east levels, I thence into the return. Entering extended dip seotion 10 SO 280 22,400 40 280 III 290 Third level east return No. 2 east level 5 I 4 38f' 22 760 29,450 18 1 ' 1,010 22,220 .. .. ) 1,010 Main return 7 I 7 49 1,150 56,350 | 18 1 J Section No. 2, intake.. 7 10i (Tal 71f cen on 6th September, 1911.) 660 47,355 .. .. ) I [ j ( This is a continuous current, but 213 j j is split at levels to ventilate I ( both top and bottom seams. Section No. 2, return.. 5| 7 40f 1,250 50,312 190 : 8 ) [ Brunner Mine, Tyneside Proprietary (Li: in on 7th September, 1911.) 150 1 8,662 I 7 1 I nited). Main intake Kl 1 10i (Taki I 57J 247 The whole of this quantity goes to the lower level workings, where seven men and one horse are employed, then circulates to the top section of 1 the workings, where it is joined by another body of fresh air- that finds its way through the brattice stoppings in the main intake. 10* Top section Main return.. 4i 4i 18 495 8,910 11,340 21 1

445

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EXHIBIT No. 20— continued. Particulars regarding Ventilation of West Coast Mines— continued.

James Newton, Inspector of Mines.

EXHIBIT No. 21. Local Sales of Briquettes and Eggettes at Westport, 1st April, 1910, to 30th September, 1911.

Height Width Locality. in in Feet. Feet. Area. 2 0,3 Quantity. ' as i & = ■ A jj m Cubic Quantity. |g a'g S *™ Remarks. . fro" fs\ W Man. Pa No. 1 seam—Intake .. 7 12 iparoa i (Takei 84 Mine, 1 n on li 120 Paparoa Coal Con 2th September, l! 10,280 2 iparoa Goal Company (Limited). h September, 1911.) 10,280 2 I ..'j |, Ventilates No. 1 seam and eas* .. [ section of No. 2 seam. 10,328 .. .. / 868 | J This quantity, plus the quantity from No. 1, circulates through 31,395 42 1 / I No. 2 seam. HO I3HA Return .. 4J 8J 38-1-270 10,328 868 No. 2 seam—Intake ,. j 6J 7 „ Return .. 6 8| No. 3 seam—Intake .. 5J 10 451 51 55 690 830 130 31,395 42 42,340 7,150 42,340 Return 6 9 54 ! 140 7,560 7,150 .. .. .. Leakage from intake doors accounts for the variation. No men working. 7,560 .. .. .. After traversing each split and uniting in fan drift. 56,700 .. .. .. Variable speed in fan—some readings a good deal higher. Main return.. .. 6f 8 54 1,050 56,700 Dennii 'ston Mi ine, We a 19th ; estport Coal Comr. and 20th Septem '/port Goal Company (Limited). Comp my (Ta (T 'aken or ad 20th September, 1908.) lepteml ler, 19( Ironbridge Section. Return, Kruger's Sec- 5 5 tion Intake, bottom drive, 4 10 No. 4 pillars Intake No. 2 .. 5£ 5J Intake, old mine .. 6 9 Shaft return Deep Creek return .. 3 5 Main fan drift .. 8 12| 5 4 51 6 25 40 27i 54 15 100 470 210 380 480 875 490 827 11,750 34 8,400 10 10,450 20 25,920 14 3,062 13 7,350 19 82,700 11,750 34 2 280 No reading taken at intakes— too large. 8,400 10 1 600 10,450 20 1 435 This is a split. 25,920 14 3 996 Natural ventilation. 3,062 13 .. 235 7,350 19 . . 386 34 10 20 14 13 19 2 1 1 3 3 8 82,700 .. .. .. i There are so many intakes to this section that it is practically impossible to get the intake quantities. (Tab Coalbrookdale. Hodget's section, intake 7 9 Entering return after 7 11 ventilating west side of dip (Tal 9 11 :en on 49 77 1st am 190 610 22nd September, 1908.) 9,310 18 I ... 716 46,970 I 118 8 251 | This quantity, less 9,310, gives quantity ventilating No. 8 and No. 9 sections calculated [ .. I on return quantity.

Sold to General Public. Sold to Government Departments. Tons cwt. Tons i 1st April, 1910, to 31st March, 1911 .. .. .. 25 16 4 1st April, 1911, to 30th September, 1911 .. .. 7 8 33 4 4 Tons cwt. 4 6 cwt. 6 6 33 4 4 6 —■ • ' '—— ■ ■—- Briquette-works. Tons cwt. £ s. d. Coal used in manufacture .. .. .. .. 7,736 19 2,127 12 7 Pitch used in manufacture .. .. .. .. 798 15 4,225 3 3 s. d. 5 0 10 1 Briquettes .. .. .. .. .... 8,535 14 Less waste, &c. .. .. .. .. , .. 116 7 Output .. .. .. .. .. 8,419 7 Stores .. 52 10 1 Wages .. .. . . .. .. . . .... 996 10 10 Coal used at boilers (579 tons 9 cwt.) .. .. .. .. 159 6 11 0 2 2 4 0 4 Total cost at works of 8,419 tons 7 cwt. briquettes and eggettes , .£7,561 3 8 17 11 17 11 r—r^-^rr-™"*™^"™

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446

EXHIBIT No. 22. Particulars regarding Ventilation of Quartz-mines, West Coast Inspection District.

(Ma .suiements tal :en by Inspector of Mines, Reefton.) Name of Mine. Date. Locality where Measurement taken. Number of Men per Shift. Quantity of Air in Cubic Feet per Minute. Quantity of Temperature. System Analysis. of Ventilation. C0 2 . O. General Remarks. Man per Minute. Wet Dry Bulb. Bulb. Big River . . | 20/6/11 Progress .. ; 12/7/11 No. 10 crosscut intake No. 11 main intake .. j Pioneer stope 20 82 2,119 4,114| 3,156, 7,840 980 3,445 3,129 5,103 3,537 4,410 8,576 2,400 5,499 5,061 105 j 67 68 75 75-1 Natural Compartment shaft is upcast and downcast. (Mine is worked two shifts, and on the third shift the workings are cleared by an exhaust fan. I,Total intake measurable. Total return volume. ;; ■ ■ 55 89 ?T 0-29 20-05 JJ " ' 1"> '.'. 12/9/11 « • • I .j 5) ■ * 5? No. 10, intake No. 6 return.. No. 4 return.. No. 5 return.. No. 6 return.. No. 9 level No. 10 level.. No. 11 level No. 4 intake.. .. j No. 7 intake No. 2 intake Low level 82 12 14 23 34 69 14 90 98 287 223 222 104 .. . 68-3 69 75-2 76-8 68 69 68 69 73 74 75-78 77-79 JJ 13 '3 0-27 : 19-65 Total return volume, 7,554 cubic feet. Return from No. 10 stopes. Return from No. 11 or Pioneer stopes. Intake near downcast shaft. Practically all passes through workings. Only No. 7 level now working. Several other connections to surface. ',■> * * " Energetic .. 13/9/11 Keep-it-Dark .. 15/9/11 Blackwater .. 19/9/11 T, • • 1) 124 170 68 69 j 60

447

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EXHIBIT No. 22— continued. Analyses of Mine-air, Reefton Mines, West Coast Inspection District.

Analyses of Samples of Air from Reefton Mines.

Temperatures. Name of Mine and Section. : Wet Dry Bulb. I Bulb. C0 2 . Analysis. CO. 0. Remarks. Dry Bulb. Progress Mine. • ° No. 2 east intermediate .. 70 71 No. 10 level, 27 east No. 9 level No. 11 or Pioneer stopes 78 79 .. 75-3 77 No. 2 east intermediate .. 71 72 0 71 79 77 72 0-54 0-94 0-46 0-53 I :: 20-65 19-32 20-13 20-00 Dead-end : compressed air. Rock-drill place ; shovelling. Air from No. 10 stopes. No current. In the current. Opposite end from No. 1 sample. Lower level than sample No. 4. 0-45 20-39 Pioneer stopes .. 74 75 75 0-41 i 20-44 Energetic Mine. No. 10 stopes north .. 73-5 74-5 No. 11 level .. .. 73 74 No. 8 stopes 73 74 No. 10 stopes south 72 73 No. 6 level, footwall drive north No. 9 north stopes .. 74-5 75-5 74-5 74 74 73 0-25 0-36 0-28 0-23 0-30 i 20-64 | 20-58 20-62 20-70 20-61 Dead-end. Close of uprise to No. 7. 50 ft. from pass. Dead-end. 75-5 0-33 20-57 No current. Keep it-Dark Mine. No. 7 stopes .. .. 70-5 71-5 71-5 0-15 20-90 Appreciable current. Blackwater Mine. No. 1 level No. 2 north stopes . 60 60 No. 3 level crosscut 60 0-42 0-005 0-005 0.008 20-63 After firing in stopes. ,, In face, 30 minutes after firing. 50 ft. back, 30 minutes after firing. Big River Mine. West intermediate stopes . . 70 71 No. 10 leading stope north 71 72 South-west level stopes New east intermediate 71 72 0-33 0-35 0-53 0-34 i 20-68 20-61 20-36 20-55 I ■ 28 ft. wide. Progress Mine. No. 10 Progress drive No. 11 south crosscut .. i 0-04 Lost i 0-69 0-25 n tianst 0-001 20-88 lit. 20-45 20-58 Dead-end. }> ' ' j * ' Crosscut from south rise . 50 minutes after firing.

iecon dt: y.) Name of Mine and Section. Air-i Depth in Area in Feet. | Square Feet. neasuremi ents. N. 00 43* • cS f-J3 P CD <K S3 " r? fl i^ ! Quantity in Cubic | Feet per I C0 2 . Minute. Analysis. No. Velocity in Feet 0. per Minute. *] 2 Wealth of Nations. No. 11 level, main return from upper workings No. 6 level, main intake thro igh incline shaft No. 11 level, main return from upper workings by south lise pass 1,875 ; .. 1,234 j 37-37 120 4,485 0-38 0-10 19-44 20-82 80-18 79-08 74-5 63-5 3 1,875 i 9 240 2,160 0-18 20-68 79-14 72 *i ■i Keep-it-Dark Mine. No. 5 level, main return from lower workings No. 7 level, 520 ft. from main shaft 'hese analyses were made by Dr. He; 773 1.073 29-25 iderson, Reefton So: Analyst, We] 62 1,813 0-75 0-20 18-8 20-67 80-45 79-13 71-5 66-5 hool of Mines; the others b; llington. Dr. Macli train, Doi linion 58—C. 4.

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448

EXHIBIT No 22— continued. Analyses of Samples of Air from Reefton Mines— continued.

Temperatures and Air-measurements, Reefton District. Progress Mine. Sept. 6, 1909.—Temperatures taken in stopes over No. 11 level at three faces ; the dry-bulb readings were 75°, 76°, and 78° Fahr. Sept. 7, 1909.—Temperatures taken in stopes over No. 10 level at two faces, dry bulb 74-s°, wet bulb 73-s°, Fahr. ; about 95 per cent, saturation. „ Quantity of air passing through main outlet, rise from No. 10 close to stopes, 4,080 cubic feet per minute. ~ Quantity of air passing through main crosscut, intake from B shaft at No. 11 level, 4,350 cubic feet per minute. Sept. 8, 1909.—Quantity of air passing through No. 6 level, main return airway, 4,725 cubic feet per minute, at a temperature of 67° Fahr. by dry bulb. • ~ Quantity of air passing into No. 8 level, near chamber at B shaft, 1,491 cubic feet per minute, at a temperature of 58° Fahr. by dry bulb. Feb. 15, 1910.—Ventilation very bad. Manager to take men out of mine until it improved. Feb. 22, 1910.—Quantity of air passing through No. 5 level, main return airway, 3,012 cubic feet per minute. April 11. 1910.—Temperatures taken: Pioneer section, No. 11 level, 80° Fahr. by dry bulb; drive off rise at No. 10 level, 80° Fahr. by dry bulb. Wealth of Nations Mine. Nov. 3, 1909.—Quantity of air passing through No. 6 level, main intake, 6,000 cubic feet per minute, at a temperature of 59° dry bulb, 57° wet bulb, Fahr. ; 86 per cent, saturation. „ Temperatures taken : No. 8 level, stopes on main reef, 70° dry bulb, 68-5° wet bulb, Fahr. ; No. 10 level, winze on main reef, 20 ft. below level, 74° dry bulb, 73° wet bulb, Fahr. ; No. 11 crosscut, 60 ft. from main shaft.. 75° dry bulb, 74° wet bulb, Fahr. ; 95 per cent, saturation. itGolden Fleece Mine. Dec. 8, 1909. -Quantity of air passing through No. 6 level, intake from surface via Ajax shaft and Royal workings, 2,082 cubic feet per minute. ~ Temperatures taken : No. 15 level, stopes over level, 71° dry bulb, 70° wet bulb, Fahr. ; face of level, 70° dry bulb, 69° wet bulb, Fahr. ; 94 per cent, saturation. Progress Mine. Oct. 4, 1910.—Temperatures taken : Provist's stopes, No. 10 level, in air-current, dry bulb 75°, wet bulb 74°, Fahr. ; hanging-wall stope in this section, dry bulb 80°, wet bulb 79°, Fahr. Pioneer stopes at No. 11 level, No. 6 bord, dry bulb 80°, wet bulb 79°, Fahr. ; No. 5 bord, this section, dry bulb 78°, wet bulb 77°, Fahr. ; 95 per cent, saturation. A. Whitley, Inspector of Mines.

Air-measurements. j , . o Analysis. 3 S-|-a v v i-H- i a « Dcl,th v • ! Velocity! Quantity'- 1 |l I No. i Name oi Mine and Section. in Aream ■ „ ■/ , ■ ~ ,. J § 5°p R Peet i Sauare Feet in Cubio *%,£ | Te P« Peet P M °" " N - ISr 8^ J U Minute. j Minute. £ - B 3 J_ __ _ __ ... I ... J. i I ! Progress Mine. *1 No. 3 level (old level under- 367! .. .. .. 0-16 19-28 80-56 going repairs) 2 ' No. 11 level, north end of : 1,416 .. .. .. 0-52 20-29 79-19 82 Pioneer section 3 l No. 6 level, main return from 816 29-25 j 143 4,182 0-61 20-12 79-24 70 lower workings Golden Fleece Mine. *] No. 15 level, return from 1.797 .. .. .. 0-76 18-99 j 80-25 72 i upper workings New Big River Mine. 1 No. 9 level, top of new eastern ; 1.375 .. .. .. 0-37 20-60 79-03 j winze, main return from No. 10 level * These analyses were made by Dr. Henderson, Reefton School of Mines; the others by Dr. Maolaurin, Dominion Analyst, Wellington.

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449

EXHIBIT No. 23. Shaft Winding-signals. Stop or hold cage (while in motion) .. .. . . . . . . I bell. Lower . . . . . . .. .. .. • .. . . 2 bells. Haul up (when cage is stopped) . . .. .. . . T Haul up, men on .. . . .. . . .. . . . . 3-1 ~ Turn off air . . . . . . . . . . 5 „ Turn on air . . . . . . . . . . .. . . 6 ~ Accident. . . . . . . . . . . .. . . .. 7 „ In addition to the ordinary signals for winding the section system must be used when ringing the cage from a level to another level.

When ringing the cage from a level to another level the number of the section must be rung first, and then the number of the level in that section. It must always be understood that there are men on the cage in the inter-level signals. T. 0. Bishop, Inspector of Mines. EXHIBIT No. 24. West Coast Inspection District.—Verdicts on Fatal Accidents, Point Elizabeth Static Mink. R. Lumsden : Accidental death, no blame being attachable to any one. J. Mclntyre : We consider the cause of death was purely accidental, no blame being attachable to any one. A. J. Davis : Deceased was accidentally killed, no blame being attachable to any one. P. Fletcher : That deceased came by his death from shock and fracture of the skull caused by a fall of debris in No. 1 State Mine, Dunollie, adding that no blame was attachable to any one. G. Downs : The jury returned a verdict of accidental death, no blame being attachable to any one. J. Baker : The deceased died from injuries sustained while working in No. 2 section, No. 1, Point Elizabeth State Mine, no blame being attachable to any one. J. H. Johnston : Deceased met his death by injuries received by a fall of coal, and that no blame is attachable to any one. J. Dunn : That deceased met his death from injuries received through an explosion of fire-damp, no blame being attachable to any one. T. McGahan : That deceased met his death by being struck with a piece of coal, and that no blame is attachable to any one. Gr. Fullick : That the deceased met his death by a fall of stone, no blame being attachable to any one. J. Newton, Inspector of Mines, Westport. West Coast Inspection District.- List of Fatal and Serious Accidents, 1908 to September, 1911. (See Exhibit No. 19.)' West Coast Inspection District. —Fatal and Serious Accidents at West Coast Mines from January, 1905, to September, 1911. (See Exhibit No. 19.) Puponga Colliery.—Readings taken ox the 7th November, 1911, by James Newton. Inspector op Mines. Intake, 39,550 cubic feet; return, 42,840 cubic feet. Ventilation good in working-places.

No. of Section. No. of Level. No. of Level in No. I .Section. Bell. Bell. I 1 I 1 2 3 . I 5 I 2 3 4 5 1 pause I 1 „ 2 1 ,. 3 1 .. 4 1 ., 5 I ! 6 7 8 9 10 No. of Level in No. 2 Section. 1 2 3 - 4 5 2 pause 1 2 „ 2 2 ,, 3 2 ,. 4 2 „ 5 2 I 2 I I 12 13 No. of Level in No. 3 Section. 2 3 3 pause 2 3 „ 3 I.

C—4

450

EXHIBIT No. 25. Accidents at Point Elizabeth State Collieby. (Handed in by John Arbuokle, Secretary to the Point Elizabeth Sick and Accident Fund, at Runanga " 27th October, 1911.) Fatal Accidents. Smith : Fall of stone, solid place. R. Lumsden : Fall of stone, solid place. 28 January, 1909 . . . . C. Mclntyre: Empty truck. 17 April, ~ . . J. Davis : Race of trucks on main dip. 12 October, „ .. .. F. Fletcher : Fall of stone on flatsheet up incline. 7 February, 1910 .. .. G. Downs : Fall of coal and stone (pillar). J. Baker : Fall of stone in pillar. J. H. Johnson : Fall of coal, solid place. U January, 1911 .. J. Dunn : Explosion of fire-damp, No. 2 section. 3 March, „ .. .. T. Whyte : Fall of stone (pillar). 3 August, ~ . . .. T. McGhan : Fall of coal (pillar). 2 July, ~ .. .. F. Devine : Accident to leg (died through blood-poisoning). 2 September, „ .. .. G. Fullick : Falling stone (pillar-workings, drawing timber). Accidents through being struck with Timber. 31 May, 1910 . . . . W. Neen : Struck with falling cap-piece (external injuries). 6 July, ~ . . .. T. Mossop :By prop falling on his foot. 9 „ ~ .. .. J.Kyle: Bar falling on his leg (sprained ankle). 20 September, „ .. .. W. Wilson : Bar falling on his leg. I March, 1911 .. . . W. Griffiths : Prop falling on his arm. 16 „ ~ .. . . D. Tweed: Finger jammed between prop and bar. 16 „ „ .. .. M. Bell: Fractured leg (prop fell on leg). 24 ~ ~ .. .. G. Ward: Piece of timber fell on hand. 7 April, ~, .. .. J. B. Douglas : Piece of wood striking eye (cut on eyeball). 29 ~ ~ . . . . T. Johns : Prop falling on leg (injury to foot). 9 May, „ .. . . J. Neilson : Prop falling on arm (muscular strain). 6 June, ~ .. .. T. Pilling : Bar falling on him (bruised leg). 16 „ „ .. .. A. Keowan: Jammed finger between timber. 19 ~ ~ .. .. R. Pickup: Prop falling on toe. Accidents through Slipping on Flatsheets. 1 April, 1910 .. .. E. Rutherford : Injury to knee. 16 June, ~ ~~.. .. 0. Beckman : Injury to side. 12 August, ~ .. .. B. Cartwright: Injury to knee. 31 „ „ .. F. Renfrey: Broken rib. 6 June, 1911 .. .. F. Macharus : Strained back. 13 „ ~ .. J. Henderson: Strained back. 21 September, „ .. .. W. McNeil: Crushed hand. 30 ~ ~ .. . . B. Bansgrove : Falling on flatsheet (injury to leg). Accidents through Jig-cfiains and Jig-sticks. 29 February, 1910 .. .. J. Lyes : Struck by jig-stick on side. 28 June, ~ .. .. J.Lithgow: Caught between roller on jig and chain. 9 October, 1911 .. .. J. Maloney : Blow from jig-chain (injury to arm). Accidents through Falling Coal. 2 February, 1910 .. .. F. Marshall: Injury to back. 23 ~ „ .. .. J. Straghan: Broken leg. 5 „ ~ .. .. J. Rimmer: Injury to head and body. 24 ~ „ .. .. J. Higson:, Injury to back. II May, ~ .. .. R. Leach : Injuries to back and leg. 23 „ „ .. A. Woodhouse: Injury to head. 4 August, ~ .. . . J. Nicholson : Injury to back and head. 5 „ ~ .. .. C. Thomas: Injury to spine. 31 „ ~ .. .. A. Asquith: Cut and bruises on arm. 3 September, ~ .. .. J. Lowe : Injury to head. 8 „ ~ .. .. G. Piner: Injury to leg. 8 November, ~ .. .. M. Lacey : Injury to ankle. 26 ~ „ .. .. T. Delaney : Injury to foot. 29 „ „ .. A. Mitchell: Injury to hand. 3 January, 1911 .. .. H. Houghton: Crushed finger. 5 May, ~ .. .. D. McGhee: Crushed finger. 22 ~ „ .. J. Price: Injury to kneecap. 22 „ „ .. W. Walker: Bruised back. 23 „ „ .. F. Renfrey : Injury to back. 20 June, „ .. .. T. Satterthwaite : Injury to leg.

451

C—4

EXHIBIT No. 25— continued. Accidents at Point Elizabeth State Colliery— continued. Accidents through Falling Stone. 3 March, 1910 .. .. A. Gibbs : Injury to back. 30 May, „ .. .. E. Scott: Cut on hand. 10 June, „ .. .. F. Tomlinson : Injury to shoulder. 17 ~ ~ .. J. Roberts: Sprained ankle and fractured leg. 22 ~ ~ .. .. T. Ellis: Injuries to head and shoulder. 27 „ ~ .. .. J. Hall: Crushed finger. 24 October, „ . . .. J. Arbuckle : Broken muscle of leg. 29 „ ~ .. .. J. Reynolds: Injury to spine. 8 December, ~ .. .. T. Braithwaite: Fractured leg. 8 „ ~ .. . . W. Shore : Bruised and poisoned hand. 12 „ „ .. J. Banks: Crushed finger. 12 ~ „ .. .. R. Ward: Crushed finger. 16 „ „ .. . . W. Rowe : Fractured leg and dislocation of leg. 3 March, 1911 .. .. J. Law : Injury to back. 15 April, „ .. .. H. Knight: Injury to shoulder. 31 May, „ .. .. W. Shore: Crushed foot. 19 June, „ .. J. McPhee : Crushed finger. 7 July, ~ .. .. Gr. Curran: Crushed finger. 20 „ ~ .. .. R. Braithwaite: Cut fingers. 21 ~ „ .. .. C. Russell : Crushed finger. Accidents through other Causes. 6 January, 1910 .. .. W. Glynn. 11 ~ ~ .. P. Mandeison: Injury to back. 24 ~ ~ .. P. Cruickshanks: Injury to finger. 24 „ ~ . . .. A. Grant: Hand caught between truck and prop. 24 „ „ .. A. Gray. 31 „ ~ . . A. McDonald : Blow in eye from piece of coal. 31 „ ~ ... J. Cook: Injury to toe. 1 February, ~ .. ..J. H. Johnston : Hand jammed with truck. 1 „ ~ .. .. W. Cauldwell: Hand jammed between two trucks. 1 ~ „ .. J. Settleton: Hand jammed between two props. 7 „ „ .. S. Keys: Cut on hand. 19 ~ „ .. .. W. Shore: Knock on leg and poison. 26 „ ~ .. .. J. Perring: Jar with pick handle. 28 ~ ~ .. .. G. Robison: Wire off rope sticking into hand. 5 March, ~ .. .. W. Robson: Blow on eye. 5 „ ~ .. .. F. Brooks: Blow on face. 5 ~ ~ .. .. J. Edwards: Sprained ankle. 7 ~ ~ .. .. J. O'Donnell: Sprained wrist. 15 „ ~ . . .. F. Tomlinson: Sprained ankle. 16 ~ ~ . . .. F. Short: Blow on face from flying coal; injury to eye 19 April, ~ .. .. J. W. Sheard : Crushed finger. 20 „ ~ •. .. E. Piner : Slipping on rail; injury to knee. 16 May, ~ . . A. Kyle : Truck running over foot. 18 ~ ~ .. .. D. Young: Fractured collar-bone. 19 ~ ~ .. W. Muir : Hand jammed between truck and prop. 19 „ , ~ .. .. W. Muncaster: Strain to side. 30 „ ~ .. .. A. Brooks: Strained wrist. 1 June, ~ .. .. S. Moore : Hand caught between two trucks. 9 „ „ .. .. H. Vernon: Ruptured lifting truck. 9 ~ „ .. .. S. Keys : Bar falling upon him. 21 ~ ~ .. .. A. Grant: Hand caught between truck and roof. 24 „ ~ .. .. G. Elliot: Hand caught between truck and roof. 25 „ ~ .. .. H. Arlow: Injury to knee. 5 July, „ . . . . C. Hunt: Hand caught between prop and jig. 6 ~ ~ .. .. F. Jackson: Injuries. 6 ~ „ .. W. Eddy : Stone rolling on ankle. 12 „ ~ .. .. J. Grifien: Injury to back. 19 „ „ .. .. H. Guthardt: Arm caught between two trucks. 30 „ ~ .. J. Reynolds: Injuries to knee. 20 „ „ .. .. J. King : Foot caught between two trucks. 15 „ „ .. .. J. Price: Cut on arm and poisoned. 11 August, „ .. .. J. H. Johnston : Injuries to back. 11 ~ „ .. .. J. Twist: External injuries. 17 „ ~ .. .. J. McGuinness: Kick from horse; injuries to knee. 1 September, ~ .. .. H. Houghton: Injuries to eye. 5 „ ~ •• .. J. Rae: Strained back lifting truck. 8 „ ~ .. C. W. Brown: Slipping while timbering.

C.—4

452

EXHIBIT No. 25— continued. Accidents at Point Elizabeth State Colliery— continued. 10 September, 1910 . . W. Vipond : Hand caught between truck and coal. 13 ~ ~ . . .. R. Hannah : Fractured arm. 3 October, ~ .. W. Partington : Poisoned hand from nail. 7 ~ ~ . . A. Smith : Jammed between two trucks (rope boy). 11 „ „ W. Fisher: Truck run over foot. 17 ~ ~ . . .. W. Missen : Slipping on rail; injury to back. 23 „ ~ .. .. J. Armstrong : Hand caught on truck; crushed fingers. 24 ~ ~ . . .. F. Irvine : Hand jammed between truck and prop. 27 „ ~ .. . . W. Dixon : Slipping on rail; injury to leg. 30 ~ ~ .. .. F. Macharus: Slipping on floor; injury to back. 1 November, ~ . ... ,J. Kyle : Hand caught with, trailer while unhooking. 15 ~ ~ . . .. J. Bigrig : Slipping on floor; injury to back. 21 „ ~ .. .. M. Fitzgibbons : Slipping on floor; injury to knee. 23 ~ ~ .. .. J. Fitzgibbons : Hand crushed between two trucks (rope boy). 24 „ „ .. F. Devine : Leg caught between two trucks. 24 ~ ~ .. F. Simpson : Strain to back. 25 ~ ~ . . .. A. Brooks : Struck on eye with coal; loss of eye. 28 ~ „ .. .. P. Stewart: Pick through hand. 8 December, „ .. .. A. Forsyth: Hand jammed between prop and truck. 12 „ ~ .. A. Waugh : Lifting truck; strain to back. 12 „ „ .. J. Pickup : Injured. 18 January, 1911 .. .. T.Allen: Truck falling on foot. 11 February, ~ . . .. E. Burger : Truck run on to leg. 13 „ „ .. .. F.Jackson: Falling on rail; injury to back. 14 ~ „ .. R. Moorfield: Knock on head. 15 ~ ~ .. J. Nuttal : Hand crushed between two trucks. 17 ~ ~ J. Rimmer: Pick stuck in leg. 27 ~ ~ ... ..A. Tither: Wrist jammed with truck. 3 March, ~ .. .. G. Fullicks : Runaway truck; injuries to aide. 9 ~ ~ . . .. VV. Gleave: Injury and poisoned leg. 9 ~ ~ .. .. T, Price : Finger cut and poisoned with coal. 29 ~ „ .. E. Burger: Injured back shifting stone. 30 ~ ~ .. . . H. Ceswell : Falling through viaduct. 31 ~ ~ . . .. R. Hogg : Arm crushed between two trucks (rope boy). 31 ~ ~ . . .. J. McDermott : Strained back lifting on a truck. 1 April, ~ . . ...' J. Smith : Finger crushed with sprag. 4■ „ „ .. . . 0. Davis : Slipped on rope; cut and poisoned arm. 8 ~ ~ .. .. C. Rogers: Pick stuck in finger. 10 ~ ~ . . J. O'Donnell : Arm cut with nail and poisoned. 18 ~ ~ .. T. Callanan : Hand crushed between two trucks. 18 ~ „ .. J. Adams : Strained back lifting flatsheet. 28 ~ „ . . R. Southward : Finger crushed between two trucks. 5 May, ~ .. . . H. Routledge : Back - strained lifting truck. 7 ~ ~ . . . . R. Lumsden : Hand crushed between two trucks (rope boy). 15 ~ „ . . .. F- Jackson: Cut on hand with axe. 17 ~ „ . . S. Gage : Strained shoulder on flatsheet. 22 „ ~ .. .. B. Palmer: Jarred hand with pick. 23 ~ ~ . . .. T. Gollins: Strained back lifting truck. 6 June, ~ .. .. V. Armstrong : Struck by runaway truck. 7 „ ~ .. J. Coulthardt : Piece of iron run into hand (blacksmith). 12 ~ ~ .. .. J. Mears : Strained back lifting truck on. 15 ~ ~ .. .. R. Arbuckle: Cut on hand with' axe. 19 ~ ~ .. .. S. Unwin: Falling on road; injury to knee. 19 „ ~ .. .. T. Haliday : Hand jammed with truck. 23 ~ „ .. .. C. Tanner: Kicked with horse (blacksmith shop). 24 ~ ~ .. .. A. Tither : Hand Crushed between coal and truck. 26 „ ~ . . .. F. Devine: Cut and poisoned leg. 21 ~ ~ .. E. McG-uinness: Sticking pick in toe. 20 July, „ .. J. Hopkins : Pick stuck in arm. 26 ~ ~ . . .. T. James: Run over by truck. « 26 ~ ~ .. J. Garvey : Slipping ,, on rail; injury to knee. 28 ~ ~ . . . . P. Devine : Slipping down; injury to leg. 29 ~ ~ . . .. I. Mossop: Twisted ankle. 4 August, ~ .. .. G. Burger : Arm jammed between two trucks. 13 ~ ~ . . .. J. Higson: Falling on main road; strained knee. 15 ~ ~ .. . . M. Lander : Crushed finger between truck and coal. 25 September, „ .. .. R. Leach : Axe breaking and cutting finger. 2 October, ~ . . J. Head : Hand crushed between truck and road. 2 ~ ~ ' .. J. Wilde : Injured by winch-rope, No. 2 section. 6 . ~ . . . . J. Coulthardt: Hand cut with, iron (blacksmith shop). 10 ~ „ .. .. J. Nash: Cut with axe. 9 „ ~ .. .. T. Devaney: Runaway truck; bruised leg.

C—4.

EXHIBIT No. 26. Particulars of Accidents in the Westland Mining District from the 16th September, 1909, to the 24th October, 1911. Sept. 16, 1909.—John McGlone, married, aged 31 years, native of Ireland : Killed by a stone falling from hydraulic-sluicing face at Kumar a. Nov. 1, 1909. —Alfred Steadman. married, aged 32 years : Killed in the Ross shaft by a piece of timber falling. Sept. 24, 1910. —John Kulsen, single : Slightly injured by a fall of clay in his claim at Tucker Flat, Kanieri. June 15, 1911. —Charles Heil, married, aged 35 years : Killed by a break in the elevator-chain at Wheel of Fortune Claim, Stafford. June 1, 1911.—Florence O'Brien : Wrenched his back while trucking in the King Gold-mining Company's Claim ; idle twenty-four days. July, 10, 1911. —Enoch Growcott, Rimu : Whilst lifting a stone received a jar ; two weeks off work. Aug. 29, 1911. —John Holley : Had his hip dislocated by a fall of debris ; two months off work. Sept. 6, 1911.—Albert William Upjohn : Injured his side and chest by the breaking of a plank in the sluicing-paddock ; twenty-one days away from labour. Sept. 25, 1911. —Alfred Richards : Injured by a stone rolling out of the face whilst picking up tools prior to knocking off work. A. H. Richards, Inspector of Mines. Approximate Oont of Paper. — Preparation, nob given; printing (1,260 copies), including diagrams and plana, £285.

By Authority : John Mackay, Government Printer, Wellington.—l9l2.

Price 7s. fid.!

453

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ROYAL COMMISSION ON MINES (REPORT ON THE)., Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1912 Session I, C-04

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ROYAL COMMISSION ON MINES (REPORT ON THE). Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1912 Session I, C-04

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Pages 201-220 of 459

Pages 201-220 of 459

Pages 201-220 of 459

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ROYAL COMMISSION ON MINES (REPORT ON THE). Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1912 Session I, C-04

Using This Item

No known copyright (New Zealand)

ROYAL COMMISSION ON MINES (REPORT ON THE). Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1912 Session I, C-04

Using This Item

No known copyright (New Zealand)