SPEECHES OF GOVERNOR SIR GEORGE GREY AND NATIVE CHIEFS AT MEETINGS IN WAIKATO DECEMBER, 1861.

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1862 Session I, E-08

E—No 8

SPEECHES OF GOVERNOR SIR GEORGE GREY AND NATIVE CHIEFS AT MEETINGS IN WAIKATO DECEMBER, 1861.

"RESENTED TO BOTH HOUSES OF ASSEMBLY BY COMMAND OF HIS EXCELLENCY.

E—No. 8

SPEECHES OF GOVERNOR SIR GEORGE GREY AND THE WAIKATO CHIEFS AT THE MEETING HELD AT KOHANGA, DECEMBER, 1861.

Kohanga, 12th December. Waata Kukutai (Ngatitipa): Welcome, Governor. Welcome to Waikato. Welcome to the house which is injured, to the path which is overgrown, to the fence which is broken down. Welcome to the scattered sheep. The sheep have no shepherd, and so they are scattered abroad. It was I who fetched you from the forests of Taane. Welcome to your old resting-places. The roads are filled up. Come ashore. Enough. Aihepene Kaihau (Ngatiteata): Here are my fathers and younger brethren carrying the treasure into the house. The likanga is with you. Enough; it has appeared in your presence. The Governor to Herewini: Will you answer a question if I ask it? Te Herewini (Ngatitamaho): Ask it. His Excellency: I wish to know what Waikato wants. Herewini: What I desire is to show my love, and cry to my friend the Governor, Welcome, Welcome. Come in the name of goodness and affection, and the words of Potatau; although he is dead, his sayings remain. Welcome, Governor, to see us in peace, and that we may see you. O Governor, Welcome. I also call to you; reply to me. I have finished what I have to say, I have said it. This is my question, that you may say your say. I have answered your question thus, because such is my love to you. I did not understand your enquiry, and so I speak my own thought. I question, and am questioned in return; questions are put to me, and I question in reply. And so I say, answer my words of good-will. His Excellency: It is impossible for me to speak until I know what you want. I am come here as a stranger, and so I seek to know what it is which is desired by you. Do you want to know if I am come here in peace? Yes. I have come in love and regard for you all, and I wish to find out what I can do for you. Herewini: Friend the Governor, listen to me. There are three things that I think of: love, peace, and Christianity. There are also three other things which I think of: the king, the flag, and the roads. His Excellency: I am a stranger here, and should like it to be made clear what all these things mean. What is the king, according to your thoughts? Herewini: This is the interpretation of it. There are three things which I consider: the king, the flag, and the road; this is my explanation. His Excellency: Well, what is it that you mean by the king? Herewini: He is a king belonging to us, to us of this Island of New Zealand, belonging to (or over) us the inhabitants of New Zealand. His Excellency: Is he a king for the Europeans? Herewini: If you, O Governor, are willing to accept my king, it will be well. His Excellency: Is he then only a king for those who wish to have him? Herewini would not answer at first; then he said: He is for us, the men of New Zealand. His Excellency: What about those who do not wish to have him? Herewiui: All the men of New Zealand wish to have him. His Excellency, repeating the last question, said: What about those who refuse him? Herewini: I do not not know that there are any; there are none who have fled beyond the bounds of New Zealand His Excellency: But I know there are many. What about those? Do you intend to force them to have him as a king? Herewini: Ha! There are none unwilling; all are consenting. His Excellency: Have the Ngapuhis consented? Herewini: All, all belong to New Zealand. His Excellency: Have the Ngatitipa consented? Herewini: Yes, all belong to New Zealand; and Waikato belongs to New Zealand. His Excellency: What power is the king to have? What is he to do? Herewini: His work. You know that wars have been the constant practice in this Island of New Zealand. The Scriptures having come to me, I search, and in the Scriptures I find: Hence I build up this enclosure as the means of stanching my blood; thus I have considered in the years that have passed. His Excellency: Have you thought of no other plan for stopping war and bloodshed, in which all the country could join? Herewini: The destroyers of this evil are Christianity and love: these are its destroyers. Speak, O Governor, about evil and good; I thought that love should be joined to love, and hence I spoke about the three things.

SPEECHES AT THE MEETINGS HELD BY GOVERNOR SIR G. GREY IN WAIKATO.

E—No. 8

His Excellency: I have come a long way to work for good, and to make peace in thia land. Herewini: And is that your design? Did you come to bring peace to this island? (To tha meeting.) You hear this? (Reply, Yes, yes.) Love and the Gospel are the fruits of good. You hare come, then, to save this island? You speak well, O Governor. His Excellency: I am come here to give peace and quiet to this land. Now this is what I am still seeking to know: Do you mean that the king that you have set up is to be forced on people who do not care for him, nor want him? Herewini: I do not know that any are outside. I have said that all the island is New Zealand. His Excellency: The Ngapuhis reject him. Herewini: No word from them has come to us. His Excellency: But if they do reject him, what then? Do you mean to try and force them? Herewini: We Maories shall love each other. His Excellency: Then you only intend him to be a Chief over such tribes as will have him? Herewini: Yes, as a king; as a king for the tribes of New Zealand. His Excellency: No; a great many have refused him. Herewini: I do not know that such a word (design) has come to us. I have not heard of such a word. His Excellency: I know they do refuse him. I know that many will refuse him. Herewini: Who says so? His Excellency: I tell you so, and it is best we had a distinct understanding upon this point. I •will not have him forced on any tribes that will not have him. Herewini: No letter has reached us, no letter saying they do not approve: and hence I said all, are consenting. In consequence of Herewini fencing the question, His Excellency said: I cannot get any information from Herewini. Is there any other Waikato man who will tell me what is wanted? Tew hi Panawaka (Ngatihine): Our words have been spoken to you by Herewini: love, Christianity, and peace. These three things also are what 1 say to you: the king, the flag, and the roads. His Excellency: Tell me what you mean by a king? What do you want done? Tewhi: We two have just now told you: the three things. His Excellency: Do you mean him to be a chief of a tribe? Many Maories say "No, we will not have him." If you want a chief for the tribes that will have him, I can understand you; but if you want to set up a chief for those who will not have him, I say you are evil men, and I will not allow such tyranny. Tewhi: I do not know that any are going outside of the tribes of New Zealand. No letter has reached us. His Excellency : The Ngapuhis say they won't have him, and so do many other tribes. Say plainly at once, do you intend to try and force him on those who will not have him ? Tewhi: I do not know that they are going (living) outside. His Excellency : Do you intend to make slaves of the Chiefs of the Ngapuhi and other tribes ? Tewhi: I have not yet seen (received) their letters. His Excellency : Do not be afraid to tell the truth. Tewhi: We (the Maories) all belong to New Zealand. His Excellency : I wish you would answer fairly, as a friend to a friend. Don't evade the question, but answer fairly. Do you mean to attack those who reject the King ? Tewhi: We will not go about threatening ; if they do not come and join us, we will not threaten ; rather let them come in themselves ; they understand it. His Excellency : Now I begin to see the meaning of your word " Peace" ; now I can go on working with all the tribes all over the country. Tewhi: Yes, they know and we know, because they are all New Zealanders. His Excellency: I felt some anxiety to know whether you intended to force your King on tribes who did not want him, because I should have been obliged to protect them from such a course of things ; but now my mind is at ease. I don't care what you call him ; King or Chief, I do not. mind him., What I shall now do is to set to work with all the Chiefs who will help me, and do all the good I can ; and those who will not aid me, I shall not care for. I shall look upon each Chief as the King of his own tribe ; and if two or more tribes come and say, "This is our King," like the King of the Ngapuhis and other tribes, I shall say, " Well, if you like to give up your chieftainship to another man, well and good, I shall not care." I shall have twenty kings in New Zealand before long; and those kings who work with me shall be wealthy kings, and kings of wealthy peoples. Ruihana (Ngatitipa) : Listen to my speech ; it is but one word. Your discourse comes in the name of goodness and peace ; your kindness is excellent, and comes from beyond the seas, and from heaven. We have allured you hither, O our great Chief. I shall confine my words here to love and the law. We all who are sitting here listen to the goodness of your words. Pay no attention to what we have been talking about, it is child's play. If you let that child's play alone, it will fall of itself. Look at the men whom God made, and do not look at the flagstaff of the Maories, because the Maori is a foolish race. Do not think about such a thing as the flagstaff. If you act thus, it will then be said to be the work of children ; but if you dispute about it, it will then be considered as an important thing. Te Ao-o-te-rangi (Tainui) : My speech to you is respecting importance being attached by you to our work, to that of New Zealand (the King movement). This is my word : I am a New Zealander, the island is New Zealand, and the work is that of New Zealand. Although, 0 my father, the tribes

4

SPEECHES AT THE MEETINGS HELD BY

E—No. 8

are strangers, and have their thoughts divided, yet do they form one people. We were overtaken when foolishly pursuing Maori customs, and were set right by you, by the people of England. Now I understand this work, the work of those nations who have knowledge. At present, Governor, we who are living on the open road of this river, are sitting in peace. When you returned to England, another Governor came ; and before that Governor had been here long, he turned against us. We did not rise in return, or do anything. We had a case of blood (that of a Native killed by an European in Auckland) ;it was shone upon by the sun, and all the world saw it. It was given up to Auckland by Waikato and by us—given up to be settled by your laws, until we were tired out. It was not long afterwards when evil occurred again ; it rose up and was put down. We were not gloomy. I had but one thought; my goodness and straightforwardness commenced then, and continued with Governor Gore Browne. His word to his friends was not heard, but the conflagration spread at Taranaki. When we first heard of it, it was burning. Whilst we were ramming down our cartridges, the report of your cannon was heard. The Maori custom is to ask, " What is that ? what is that ?" Now that you are come, welcome Governor, welcome to New Zealand. When you left, the flock of sheep were on the right path, and the garden, which you cultivated, was thriving well : when you return, it is overspread with rats and evil ; the sheep have broken out, and cannot be again returned to the fold. Now that you are seen again, you are agreed to as a shepherd for the sheep, for it was you who fed the sheep with grass from the garden. Behold, O Governor, it was you, it was the Pakeha who gave strength to this thing which I call a ngarara. [The ngarara, or lizard, is held as an evil thing and an object of terror by all Maories.] We were overtaken working foolishness ; but according to your way of thinking, the Maori understood that the King was an important work and an evil ngarara. You speak of the people who consent to the King, and of those who do not consent. By and by the thoughts of kingism will go over to the neutrals. lam not afraid of Waikato, although Waikato is a sea. If your thoughts about this island are good, we shall be friendly ; if the fire spreads, you, the father, must put it out. The words of Potatau were Christianity, the Law, and Love; these were all the words which we heard. I will not conceal our thoughts from you. Perplexed as you are, this is what I say to you, Love : and we will cry out to you, O Governor, that the whole of Waikato will be friendly to the Government. Give up your jealousy of the King movement : turn to us. Continue to speak of the things you see (to be right), until you return to your own house. If this were a (purely) Maori meeting, this speech would be now answered. Wiremu Te W Theoro (Ngatimahuta): Attend to me, O Governor, and I will tell you the meaning of the remarks of those men who have spoken about the tribes who are not agreeable to the King. It is because those tribes have not declared themselves to the King that the King has said all the Maories of New Zealand belong to him. If they come to the King and say, "We do not consent to the King," they will be left quietly alone, and their disapproval accepted; if afterwards they consent they will be received by the King ; and if they never consented, they would be left alone : that is the system. Let me now tell you the meaning of what Te-ao-o-te-rangi said about the kupapa (friendly or neutral Natives). If any say they are evil disposed to the King, the King says they all belong to him, because they have not (outwardly) expressed their views. And as Ruihana advises you to let the King alone, even so do I; let him alone, do not think about him. But your word has already come forth, that you do not interfere with the King ; your word has also come forth in reference to peace, that it was to bring peace that you came. These words will be held fast by us all, and be conveyed from oue place to another.

SPEECHES AT TAUPIEI. December 16th, 1861. Waata Kukutai: 0 Waikato and the Governor, listen to me. This is my opening speech to you now, that the two tikangas may be seen. My thoughts during the two last years have been respecting the soiling (troubling) of this land, and I thought how good could arise for it. The splinters of Waikato flew to Taranaki, and evil came: the splinters of the Pakeha flew at Taranaki, und evil came. As for this, Waikato has now come here with the Governor, and it is good for us all to talk this day. I merely now call out to you : Welcome, welcome. There is good in the two plans (meaning the King movement and the Governor's proposals) : how can that good be made to grow? You have raised before the Governor the road and the King, an the Governor does not tread them down. Now how must good spring up or evil grow ? This is my invitation for you all to speak. His Excellency spoke after Waata Kukutai, and said : Salutations to you all! I have returned to this country to see my old friends, and to be the Governor of the two races, the Europeans and the Maories. You must not think I am only come as a friend of the Europeans, to punish the Maories for anything they have done. I am come as the friend of both, and as an impartial person, to see what can be done. I have been sent with a very large force at my disposal, to put an end to war and discord, and to establish law and order ; and if the force now here is not sufficient, I can have as much more as I like. I know I shall have to answer for the way in which I may use that force; not to Europeans, not to Maories, but at the Judgment Seat where I shall have ta stand hereafter: and knowing that as I do, you may depend that I shall use the means at my disposal to the best of ability, for the good of those under me. The people of Waikato may therefore rest assured, and I give them my word, that I shall never attack them first, and that they may rest in peace and quietness.

5

GOVERNOR SIR GEORGE GREY IN WAIKATO.

E—No. 8

Having now said these things, I will talk to you with reference to the points of difference between you and the Government, and tell you my news. The first point is the property stolen from the Europeans. You will remember that this has been demanded to be given up, if you do not wish to be attacked. In my position as Governor, I do not care whether this is given back or not; but I will tell you what I think. You know, if in a tribe one steals from another, that the whole tribe rises and punishes the thief. Now I say that the Maories and the Europeans are one tribe ; and to say that I will attack the tribe that has the plunder, is to say that it is of a different tribe to ourselves, which I will not admit; and, therefore, whenever a man is caught with any of the stolen property, he will, even it be 20 years hence, be taken before the Judge, and if found to be a thief, he will be punished. I do not pretend to say if he is a thief or not; the Judge will do that when he is caught. Now I have told you this as Governor, I will speak to you as a friend on this point. I look upon the Maories as one " hapu" of the great family that inhabits this island. When a hapu looks upon a thief as a disgrace, it says to him, "give up the plunder, and don't bring disgrace upon us." Therefore I recommend you all to try and persuade the people who have the plunder to give it up. All nations are watching you, and I am jealous for you, and cannot bear to be the Governor of the Maori, and for other nations to say, " they (the Maories) are a nation of thieves." Just in the same way the father of two children, when he sees one of them take things from the other, tries to make him make restitution. So when I see Tarauaki has been plundered, I know the Europeans can never feel reconciled to the Maories unless some restitution is made ; and I would persuade them to make it. The next thing is about the Eoads. You seem to think that roads through the country would do no good. I think they would improve the value of the lands through which they pass ; and if you think I want to spend money in making roads through the land of people who don't want thereby enriching them at the expense of others, you must think me a fool. In the country of the Europeans, they have to pay the greater part of the cost of the roads before the Government helps them. In the same way I should be very unwilling to make roads through Native land, even if the owners came and asked me to do so, unless they paid part of the money. The only case in which I would pay for them would be, when the roads led to some very distant place which would benefit other districts, besides benefiting the lands of the Natives through which they pass. I will give you an instance of what I mean. I hear Waata Kukutai is going to cultivate on the top of the mountain (pointing to the hill behind the village). If he does not make a cart-road up to the cultivation, I shall think him a very cruel man, for otherwise he will kill or injure all the women who will have to bring down the loads of produce ; and the children that will be borne by them will be decrepit, and thus the tribe will be lost. But do you think I shall be such a fool as to come with troops and war to make the road ? No ! I tell him what will be the result, if he does not make the road, and T leave it to him. I should like to see all the laud covered with carts and horses and cattle, and all the people well dressed and flourishing ; but I shall not come and cut their throats if they don't like to be so. How should I like to be judged, with a row of dead bodies laid out before me, and one should say " how is this ? who slew them?" and I should have to say "I did, because they were foolish and did not know what was good for themselves !"—Look there (pointing to a heavily laden bullock dray passing) would you rather see your women laden with those things ? Those men who like their women to be killed with hard work and who do not like oxen and sheep, why, it is their own look out. Another thing —you must not think that I shall let travellers, either Europeans or Maories, be stopped and plundered; it is a very serious offeuce. I shall not make war upon the tribe; but if ever I catch the individual, he shall be punished. Now the third thing—the King—I will talk about. You heard Waata Kukutai say, I assented to the king and the flag. I must explain what I mean. If a tribe, or two or three, or more, call their Chief a king and stick up a flag, I think it nonsense, and don't mind it. I think it a foolish thing to do, and that it may lead to bad consequences; but I shall not quarrel with them until the bad consequences come. You must recollect that this king affair is mixed up with manv things that ought not to be. For instance, I hear that at the Runangas many of those people who have plundered the Europeans are present, and I think you should not associate with such wicked people. If I was in the king's place I would not associate with bad people. I even understand that people who have been receiving pay as Assessors i'rom Government, have besu associating with these people: and I think it wrong that people who are paid for patting down robbers should mix with them. In the same way I hear that the king has been making rules to prevent travellers going about: thisis wrong, and if ho does wrong things and he is caught, he will be tried like another man and punished. I can't help it—you must not misunderstaud me: —any man may stop people from coming on to his land, but where an accustomed line of road runs from one place to another, no man may block it up. You must be careful not to think that in this matter I shall quarrel with you all. I, as Governor, have nothing to do with it—the cause must be tried by the Judge, or by your Runangas when you have them, between the traveller and the owner of the soil. I speak to you as a friend, and as the namo of king has been mixed with many troubles and is much disliked by miriy people, I would get rid of it, and find some other namo: and then with the other Chiefs of the district I will work to establish law and order in the country. If they don't care to have me as a friend to help them and work with them, they must do without me. 1 can't help it. I will now speak to you on one. other point—the land.

6

SPEECHES AT THE MEETINGS HELD BY

E—No. 8

I understand that there is a jealousy that I shall buy laud from a few people, and take it by force from others; you may depend on it I shall not do this. Until all that are concerned aro ' consulted, no land will be taken. I will not send people about the country teasing and troubling you about the sale of your lands. I should be a bad man if I did so, —particularly in the Waikato —as whenever I have asked you for laud you have given it to me. Did I not ask you for the land on which the Mission (pointing to it) stands, and did you not give it? Did I not ask you for land for Mr. Ashwell's station, and did you not give it? so also with other places. Now, as I have said so many hard things of you, I must say that I think, in very few countries, men would have so liberally given up land for school purposes as you have done: and in all countries it is said you have in this thing well done! Now, I will tell you what I propose to do for the future. I do not mean to say, that in as far as institutions for the maintenance of law and order have not been established in the country among you, your interests have not been overlooked. You must have seen that the Europeans have been allowed to make rules and laws for themselves, and those who made them have been paid for doing so; while the Maories have been left unprovided for, and those that did make laws were ill paid. I do not feel that I am without blame in the matter myself. When I was the Governor here formerly, I ought to have seen farther ahead, and what civilization would lead to and require. I propose therefore now, that wherever people live in considerable numbers, the island should be divided into Districts, and Runangas appointed to make laws for them, and to determine if roads are to be made, and what share of the expenses the people of the district will have to pay. They will also determine the ownership and boundaries of land, and if it may be sold, and by whom—and whether spirits may be sold, and under what regulations. In fact they will have to make laws on all subjects concerning their own interests, and when these are sent to me and I have consented to them, they will be binding alike both on Maori and European. Native Magistrates will also be appointed, and people under them, to administer the laws: and all these people that are employed will have salaries, and be paid regularly on the 1st of each month like Europeans. You will thus see by what I have said, that the way I intend to put down evil is by putting up good, not by employing force. One thing 1 have omitted to tell you. In each district a medical man will be stationed, and salaries will be provided for the Native Clergymen or Schoolmasters, aud for each " hapu" that wishes to put aside land for the support of a clergyman I will endeavour to get a minister. One of the great evils has been, that there has been no opening for the young men, Chiefs and others, who have been highly educated. Now I make all these openings, clergymen, magistrates, doctors, &c, and a young Chief may become one of these, and not have go to work (manual labor) on his laud like a common man, but live like a gentleman. Now don't you say I am not come here to conquer and kill you; I have come to conquer and kill you too— with good. Now I have done, and if any of you want to ask questions about what I have said, I am here to answer. Ruihana (Ngatitipa): There are three things of the Governor —three things to think about. I consider the evils in my presence (or path). Leave the Governor to l'eveal them; although it cuts my heart, leave him to reveal them, because goodness has appeared. Consider quietly, because of goodness and peace: he has come from abroad, he came from God, and from the Queen. Now here is another good word, wo understand the Scriptures. Look at this word, goodness, goodness; do away with evil; look you at that; let the good be established, and afterwards think of evil. His system is laid down, and it is for us to oppose (deal with) it. I shall not be destroyed by you, but rather by God if at all. Let this be clear, let it be light. Rise np and speak. Kihirini (Tainui) : Welcome, 0 goodness, welcome. Welcome Governor, the father of what is good. Welcome in love and the gospel. Bring hither the words of peace : let not the time be long. Karaka Tomo (Ngatipou): Welcome in goodness and love. There is no other word; all the korero is about peace. Arama Karaka (Ngatihine): Welcome, welcome; bring love; it is here being kept; old things are not forgotten. Te Herewini (Ngatimahuta): Welcome: whether for good or evil, Your words are good. You say in your speech that you are a Governor for both races, the I'akeha and the Maori. According to my thought, the plunder taken at Taranaki must be carefully adjudicated. There are many things lying under the " three things." Now if you see that the sin is ours, judge us ; if you see the offence was from you, enough, you will know that it is your own. Again: if you see that I slay a Pakeha travelling on the road, mine is the offence; if the Pakeha kills a man, yours is the sin. As to the property taken at Taranaki, let us be judged for it. If you see that the offence was ours, judge us ; if the offence is from you, from the Pakeha, we shall both know that it is from the Pakeha. Waikato (Ngatitipa): Welcome, Governor, in the love and kindness of God. Welcome in peace. Come and spread your garments over me : it is in affection that I say this word to you. I do not look at the length of our discourse ; when it is all collected, it will be goodness, peace. Tipene (Ngatimahuta) : What I shall speak about is the king, the flag, and the plunder. You formerly were the Governor of this island ; and as for us, we were with you. Now the things you gave us at that period were Magistrates. After your departure, we considered that we should raise up a king for ourselves, to stop blood shedding and repress the evils of the land, and put an end to wars. For two years this korero has been maintained. While the magistrates which you speak about were still residing, men were selling land throughout the island. We thought, New Zealand will be gone. We saw the land which had gone covered with cattle, and horses, and sheep, and the men employed

7

GOVERNOR SIR GEORGE GREY IN WAIKATO.

E—No. 8

fencing the land against cattle, &c. We then said let the land be withheld. We (Waikato) began it, and others joined. We saw that the elder brother was quarrelling with the younger ; aud so one man was appointed to suppress fighting, and stop the blood. Land was bought at Taranaki : we heard it was bought improperly, and presently disturbance arose about it. We held two ruuangas to consider it, in the course of which we heard that Tarnnaki ■was destroyed. Afterwards came news about the Ngatiruanui, and here we were perplexed. We had not heard that the Pakeha was fighting at Taranaki until the soldiers had gone aboard the ships : then we heard. Now this offence was from the Pakeha : hence we said, we are strangers to one another. This is our thought; we are divided, you on one side, and we on the other. Three things we worked at after you left us ; the gospel, the king, and the flag. We did not know it was wrong till after it was set up ; then, for the first time, we knew it was considered wrong. I now say, work gently. Enough about that. This is another thing, about the roads. Formerly you commanded them, and they have been withheld by us. The roads are not simply for fetching food from a man's farm ; throughout the island, it is this which creates fear. At Taranaki, the road being there, your guns reached the pa. This is our fear, lest that strange cart (gun carriage), the cart of terror, should travel on it. But for this fear, roads would have been allowed long ago. Enough of that. Now, it was we (Waikato) who established the king. I have not heard that the roads are stopped up ; the great road of the Waikato river is not stopped, the road of the Waipa river is not stopped, the Pakehas and the Maories are travelling upon them ; the road of the Union Jack alone is closed. The words of Potatau, and yours, are still held : we adhere to the advice of Potatau, " Do not do anything, do not fight, do not be angry with the Pakeha, but be kind to him." Waikato adheres to these words. Our runangas are similar to your own, some are good and some are bad. At the present time, the only thing we will look at is goodness, that it may be joined and made fast. If we rise up, against you, what would be the result? If you rise up against us, what would be the result? Formerly we, the Natives, were separate tribes : but now if I go to the other end of the island, it is still I (we are now one people). Let the error, if any, be sought out of our conversation during this day. His Excellency: If any tribe refuse to have your king, will you attack them? Tipene: I have not yet heard of the fear of any tribe within this island. His Excallency: Until you give me a fair answer to that question, I shall think you refuse mj words of peace. Tipene: This is my reply. I do not know that some are outside (of the king). Let me hear it, and then for the first time shall I say, we (Maories) are a divided people. But we will not make them afraid (attack them). His Excellency: If any tribe sells land to us (Europeans) will you attack it? Tipene: We will not consent: we and our land are with the king: we shall, therefore, withhold it, for we have received his pledge (pauna). His Excellency: If the man wishing to sell his land has not pledged it to the king, will you attack him? Tipene: No, he would be a stranger to us. His Excellency: But if he had, and afterwards altered his mind? Tipene: The land will be withheld, because he will have been imposing upon us. His Excellency: What, by force? Tipene: No, we will not strike (first); but if he sees us withholding it, and attacks us, then we shall strike. His Excellency: No, he will not do that. Tipene: I am thinking of his deceit to us. If you hear that we hold that land (in trust), do not buy it. His Excellency: What do you mean by that? Tipene: If a man has given us (the king) his land (to withhold), and he says, Return me my laud, that I may sell it for the purpose of acquiring other property, then we shall quarrel. His Excellency: I have nothing to do between you aud the m,an who agreed to give you his land. Tipene: Do not consider me, as a man, but consider the word. His Excellency: If you were my servant and wished to leave me, should you be always bound? Tipene: In my opinion, what I say is right; it is not we who say that we will go as men for him, it is he who comes to us. His Excellency: What are you going to do to a man who wishes to sell his land? Tipene: We withhold it for his own use. He will not be allowed to sell his land: but we shall not assail and kill him; we shall not do as you Pakehas do. Te Teira's land was held back by Te JJangitaake: it was held, it was continued to be held, and you went and made war. O Governor, I also wish to speak about the Ngatiruanui. We have heard of the error of Ngatiruanui in stopping up the road against the Pakehas. If it were said, that we (Waikato) the cause of it, I should have to think about that when I went home. I have only just heard that the Bishop was injured (stopped, by the Taranakis), and I shall, say to them, Let the Pakehas pass. His Excellency: How about the stolen property, the cattle and horses? Tipene: My name for that is I1 spoils of war" (or "spoils lawfully taken in war.") His Kxcellency: How about the land of the Europeans on which the Maories have gone? Tipene: Is there no Maori land at Waitara in possession of ihe Pakeha? His Excellency: What land do you mean? Doyou mean the block that was fought about? Tipene: I enquire of you, is there no Maori laud at Waitara in the Pakeha's possession? His Excellency: What laud do you mean? Tipene: Waitara.

8

SPEECHES AT THE MEETINGS HELD BY

E—No. 8

His Excellency: If you mean the disputed land, an investigation will take place. Tipene: That is well; let also the other land, Tataraimaka, be investigated. His Excellency: We can have no dispute about the Tataraimaka block. That is ours. Tipene: Let the man who takes it be tried. That is a good plan for lands which are disputed, let a trial take place. His Excellency: Under the new regulations, the Runangas will hold such investigations. Tipene: If there is any Maori land at Waitara occupied by the Pakeha, let the case be tried; and if there is any land of the Europeans occupied by the Natives, let it be also tried. We have heard that soldiers ivill be sent on the road (Tataraimaka); it is that which creates fear. Keep it open. His Excellency: You had better distinctly understand, that if the people along the sea coast interfere with that block, or use threatening language, I will place soldiers there. Tipene : What, because they hold fast their design ? I will now return to the plunder. Plunder is plunder ; a man is a man ; and death is death. If that question has to be settled by the Runanga, it is well. His Excellency : I do not promise to be satisfied without the stock is given up. I do not think I shall be satisfied. I must have an enquiry before I can say what I will do. Tipene : I have not yet enquired about that plunder, that I might Bay whether the men who took the plunder are right or otherwise. His Excellency: I can only say that if I catch any one with stolen property, he will have to be tried. I am told they, the thieves, keep the stock openly. Tipene : If any of the property is still remaining, well ; let it be returned. His Excellency : I will go down and investigate it all quietly. I shall not be in a hurry. Tipene : Perhaps some of that plunder belongs to us (Waikato.) If any cattle, horses, or other property be still remaining, some of it belongs to us. It is about what is left that you are speaking? His Excellency : I understand that the Ngatiruanuis are in quite a different position to others. They killed women and children, and burnt houses, and plundered. I have not enquired into the matter, but from what I hear, if I were a friend, as you are, going to speak to the Ngatiruanui, I should advise them to give up what they have got, and a piece of land in compensation: and to say, Now we have done this, let us live in peace, as we have made reparation. I only say what I would do. I have not enquired into the circumstances. Even in distant parts of the world I heard of the conduct of the Ngatiruanuis, and felt ashamed at such things being done bj Maories. Tipene then laid his taiaha at the Governor's feet, and said, Look here. You say that there is no cause: I say there is a cause. Will it (a vibration if a blow struck) stop at the tongue in the head of my taiaha ? Therefore I have thought your saving (words) would reach to the other end (meaning that the Ngatiruanuis had fought because the Ngatiawas had been attacked and that in like manner peace should be granted to all alike.) His Excellency : I do not like to say anything against past misconduct. Tipene : But we are speaking about that time (on that subject). His Excellency ; I do not like to say anything about that as an excuse. I should have to say something very severe about killing women and children. Tipene : Very well, the subject shall not be pursued if you say so : I have said the same. His Excellency : I have simply told you what I should advise. Tipene : That is right: My thought at the present time is the same. Are your questions ended ? His Excellency : Yes. Tipene : Then I will ask a question : Are you opposed to my king ? His Excellency : I do not care about him. But I think it is a thing which will lead to trouble. If you ask my opinion as a friend, I should say, Stop it. It will be stopped by such means as I have adopted, and it will die out. But I advise you to stop it. I fear it will lead to quarrels and so forth. Tipene : Behold ! if you say that it (the king) is a road which will lead to future difficulty, the error is our own : that is right. You have heard the reason why he (the king) was set up : if evil arise, it will fall upon ourselves (for we shall be the cause of it.) But if it (the king movement) is brought to nought by your plans, well and good. You say what is the king to you ? We say it is a thing of importance to us. And the reason why we say so is this, that we have seen the good of it: the quarrels of the Maories amongst themselves have for the last two years diminished. Therefore I say, if evil arise from it in future, we shall have caused it (brought it on ourselves.) Listen. Formerly both races were living together, our plans were the same and the work of this island remained unbroken. We worked together and talked together at that period, about the evils of the land; until the separation took place which we have been speaking about. Then, for the first time, I saw it was well. And now, by means of it many evils that have arisen have been put down without war) ; and, therefore, I say it (the king) is an important thing to us. Now, I ask you, " Are you altogether opposed to my king ?" If you consent to my question, wo shall then work quietly, because we are not the chief cause of the king ; whereas with you is the final decision as to your own system. So I ask you, " Are you altogether opposed to our king ?'■' that you may say whether you are so or not. His Excellency : If you ask me as a friend, I tell you I think it a very bad thing. Tipene : I say it has not arisen from us (Waikato), but from the whole island : but my questiou still remains unanswered. I ask, in order that the word of condemnation or otherwise may be spoken

9

GOVERNOR SIB GEORGE GREY IN WAIKATO.

E—No. 8

out. Will you condemn it in anger with war ? Rather let him (the king) stand :if you let him alone he will fill of himself. His Excellency : I think that each Chief in his own tribe, should, with his Runanga, come under the Governor ; then they could all work with me. Tipene : Leave that, we will convey it to the people. We are not going to pluck out the various tribes, i.e., for their adherence ; if a man comes to join us, we will not tell him to stop away. This will be our plan of imaping (gaining adherents) ; if a tribe come to us, we shall say, the system is with us (Waikato) Tnis will be ri<rht, for they will have come of themselves. Letters have reached us from Hauraki, and we have answered ; letters from Tauranga, which we have answered ; letters from Ahuriri, which we have answered : we have received as pledges (of adhesion to the king), from Hiuraki £10 ; from Tauranga £15 ; also, further on from Ahuriri, from Porangahau, te Wairoa and Wairarapa : all of their own accord. From Heretaonga, we have received a pledge (or payment) of £300. From Whanganui, we have also received letters. With regard to Rangitaake Wiremu Kingi, he fetched our flag as a protection for his land : and now he is residing in Waikato. As to the Ngapuhi, Ido not kjiow about them : but one man of the Raravvas, a relative of mine, has been to us. At the present time, whilst both races are at peace, perhaps we shall be divided, or perhaps we shall be united. Let goodness, peace and love be joined together : that may be done now, and I say therefore, proceed gently (cautiously) in working out the plans you (the Governor) have spoken about. The only thing that remains dark (unsettled) is the king : your own plan is to unite us all. His Excellency : Let the several Runangas send up laws for my approval. The laws so assented to, would be laws for Europeans as well as Maories. Tipene : Enough ; your word has been given us ; leave us to work. This is all at present. His Excellency : D> you know what I want to see ? These Runangas and people prosperous and happy, with their chiefs, clergy, artizans, &o. : farms springing up, cattle and wealth abundant. I want to have ears that can hear for me, eyes that can see, hands thit can work for me, in every part of the island. I want to forget the past, with all its shortcomings, and begin again afresh.

SPEECHES AT KOHANGA. December 17th, 1861. His Excellency : I have come here to help you, and I think the best thing is for you to ask m; questions about anything you do not understand. (Addressing W. Kukutai). Do you understand what the duties of tha Runanga will ba ? (Waata : Tes). The work of the Runaaga, when it sits as such, will be different from that of the Magistrates ; it will be to make laws and regulations for the government of the district. When these rules have been made by the Runanga and approved by the Governor, then the Magistrates will have to enforce them as any other laws are enforced. Then there will be other work for the Runanga to do : it will have to consider all things that are good for the district ; e.g., if a Ferry is wanted by any people, the Runanga will have to consider if it is necessary, and report to me before I do anything ; it will have to consider and recommend what the ferrymau will have to be paid, and what people should pay for crossing, In the same way if Roads are wanted, it will have to enquire if it is so, and what are the best lines, and when I have consented to their being made, it will have to superintend them and the expenditure, and the Secretary of the Runanga will have to keep the account, and the Runanga will have to arrange with the owner of the land over which the road will pass, if he is to be paid anything. In the same way when the boundaries of a pieca of land or the ownership is disputed, the Runanga will appoint a commission to examine into the matter and report, and it will have to consider if the commission has reported correctly, and it will report in its turn to me as to what I ought to do. In the same way if a Hospital is wanted, the Runanga will decide upon the site, and what fees people should pay, and who should be let in free without paying. Then if the people want a School, they will, in the first instance, have to apply to the Runanga, and it will report to me if the School is necessary. For all these thmgs it will arrange its own time of meeting, perhaps once a month, perhaps once in six weeks, and it will sit for five or six days if necessary, and will give puhlic notice that all may know of the sittings and attend them if they wish. This is all. I now think that you will understand about Runangas. About Magistrates I need say nothing, you all know what they have to do. If you want any more information upon any subject, now you can ask me, and I shall be glad, if I can, to give it. Te Ao-o-te-rangi (Tainui) : My part of the talk will be on the same subject as yours, Waata. You spoke about peace, about an enlightened system, and about everything which is good. That side (of the question) is correct, but, brother, you and I have never been found in fault up to this period. (To His Excellency.) After you, the Governor, left us, there arrived another Governor, and when that Governor turned round, it was against me. That is the reason why I am dark. I am an orphan, O Governor, an orphan, all are orphans by accidents and by war ; by your arrival in New Zealand, either we become possessed of parents, or we do not. Well, be kind to the children according to your word ; and let not the Maories say that you are speaking deceitfully (or with flattery) ; do not curve your road, let it be straight, that carts may travel on it. Our discourse will not be at an end, it will be mouth to mouth, we shall not be separated ; at the present time, I am pleased with your korero, but if my reply is wrong do not be gloomy, nor find fault with it. Now this is what 1 say : I consent to the Governor's word. The Governor calls for the road and the runanga, and everything has been mentioned by the Governor. My (present) road is the outside road, on the sea, and its opening (commencement) is at Whaingaroa. A road is the thing which I approve of, on the Governor's side, because of the mud and the

10

SPEECHES AT THE MEETINGS HELD BY

E—No. 8

mountain, and that our produce, that of the tribes, may be conveyed for sale. I speak thus to you, 0 Governor, because of the words which you spoke to me about the roads and the bye-roads: I consent to them. This is neutrality (or friendliness). O Waikato, I am much in want of my road. Look at my side (of the subject). Let the Kupapa (neutral native) defer his word (of censure). If you see the guns and soldiers travelling on the road, the error will be mine, apprehend me, because I shall be in fault : judge me, convey me to prison because the Governor and I shall have cleared the road, allowing the guns and soldiers to pass. If my road is formed I shall be much pleased at being able to take my potatoes, and wheat, and onions, and other produce to market. That is all about the road. I do not agree to the (European) Magistrates. We want no other Magistrate than Waata and Wiremu te Awaitaia ; they can do the work. Our errors and our faults can be talked over ; if there is any great offence, I can write about it to you. I will not consent to adopt the Runanga and the Magistrate. That side (system) is very good, but I have spoken to you about it in the town, telling you I was not agreeable to it. I will tell ray errors by letter lest it be said that I have been flattering you. Ruihana (Ngatikarewa) : If I fall now, do not laugh at me. This is my patience and my kindness. It is for my eye to see good and evil. These are the things I am afraid of, guns and powder. Break them loose (release the restrictions on their sale), and I shall be satisfied : these, in my opinion, are the fearful things. My thoughts are, make an opening for the snake (allow the sale of arms and ammunition). O Governor, cause the reptile to be driven forth : I have no fear connected with any other treasures, with money, or blankets, or other things ; it is all with guns and powder (i. e., for you to possess them and the Maories not). His Excellency : Who is the gupowder for, and for what purpose ? Ruihana: Either to keep, or to shoot birds with. His Excellency : I cannot let any one get guns, either European or Maori. Do you only want shot ? Ruihana : Shot is good ; if in large quantity, it is good : it is for you to look at what I say. His Excellency : What are you afraid of? Euihana : 1 am afraid of you. His Excellency : You need not fear me ; I will take care of you. Ruihana : Very well: you will take care of me : but there is your dog (military force). His Excellency : I am so determined to have good, that I will not put arms into people's hands with which to kill each other. I am so fond of being safe, that I shall keep everything locked up, Hereafter, if I can find chiefs that I can trust, and they want gunpowder for shooting birds, we will talk about it. I am a very cautious man ; they might shoot other birds. Ruihana: That can be thought about. This will be the cause of my death (my being deceived); it is said peace, peace; but it rests only on the lips. Where does it reside? His Excellency: What I do for one, I shall have to do for others. Ruihana: Other men must speak for themselves, and you look at (judge) what they say. His Excellency: I don't intend to keep anything back from you; but this I will uot promise. Ruihana: Hence the fear. Now am I in dread about that. I looked at the alienation of my land, and hence I said, let not the land pass away without payment. His Excellency: Do you ask who is to pay1? Ruihana: You, you must pay me. It (the land) is for the payment of powder, of powder for me, and for the purchase of guns for me, that the reptile may go forth, that fear may cease, aud that I may know there is no evil. His Excellency: I cannot consent to arms being sold. Herewini Hunia (Ngatitahinga): I formed my desire, and expressed it to the Pakehas. It was not long before the Governor's letter arrived, containing his dissent, and preventing (the settling of) my minister; hence I was slow to survey the laud. Now, Governor Browne and I disputed on that subject. His Excellency: If Natives desire to give land for the clergy, I shall always allow it. I should like to see the land filled with clergymen. Herewini: Now, this is my reply to that: if Governor Browne had said the same, it would have been well. I now say to you, yive me a Pakeha (minuter). His Excellency: You must go to the Bishop. I will do my best with him, and I think you will soon get it done. Apera Kiwi (Ngatitahinga): This is another subject, the ferrying of the Pakehas at my river Whaingaroa. I cross the poor (class of) Europeans, who say they will pay, but don't. They run away into the bush. His Excellency: As soon as we get the Runanga, it will settle on some annual payment for the ferryman at Raglan. Te Pou Totara (Ngatitipa): Welcome, father. You come not here of your own accord, but are brought by the providence of God. (Song.) My friend, who loves us, welcome. Now I will ask you, what roads are they which you say are to be provided by the Runanga? His Excellency: Any roads you like. Te Pou Totara: Listen; all that 1 know about (will consent to) is the river, the Waikato, which it flowing by: that is the road in your possession. The boat can come, the gig-boat can come, the whale-boat can come. That is all the road that 1 am light about (agree to). As for a road over the land, no. These are all the roads, the water. His Excellency: Mr. Fenton has been sent up to start all these things, and if you will work well and truly with me, I pledge myself to work with you, and help you to the uttermost of my power.

11

GOVERNOR SIR GEORGE GREY IN WAIKATO.