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I.—7a.

C. R. N. MACKIE.

07. lion. Mr. Smith.] Your attitude would probably be the attitude of the members of your society? —I do not think so; probably the majority might —I could not say for certain. 68. You yourself have condemned alternative service? —Yes, I do myself. 69. No suggestion of alternative service would satisfy your society? —I do not think so. Of course, we have a very large number of members, and I do not know what might be the general opinion. 70. The Chairman.] What personal knowledge of the condition of things did you have at Ripa Island?—l visited there once, and every week regularly other members of the Council went. 71. How long did you stay?— Half an hour. 72. So that as far as your own personal knowledge is concerned it is restricted to half an hour ?—Yes. 73. You say there was no medical inspection I—l1 — I said if there had been a medical inspection the windows must have been closed up afterwards. 74. The complaint made by you, so far as the military authorities are concerned, is that the lads were put on short rations and that they were confined in separate cells or rooms : do you know that the regulations provide for that? —No, only for sleeping-accommodation. 75. Do the regulations say that] —There is no regulation providing for punishment at all. 7(>. Is not the whole detention a punishment?— Yes, the detention is a punishment; but they are being punished wrongly if they are punished again unless the punishment is inflicted by a Magistrate. 77. The regulations say that offenders are to be kept confined in separate cells. Were you not aware that is part of the ordinary punishment?—No, sir; if you read that in connection with the drilling, exercising, &c, they would have to be drilled in their cells. The regulations are not regulations for punishment. 78. Hon. Mr. Allen.] Were they regulations for discipline?— Yes. 7!). The Chairman.] You say that these regulations, or, rather, actions of the military authorities, were illegal, and also that Mr. Bailey made a mistake in his law when he punished some of (lie boys for having disobeyed regulations. Now, is not the position this: that when this case was heard before Mr. Bishop at Lyttelton the prosecution failed only on the ground of failure to prove that the regulations were properly made by the Commandant and Minister, because the prosecuting party did not prove that the regulations had been prescribed by the Commandant and the Minister I—Mr.1 —Mr. Bishop asked for the regulations. He said, "I cannot accept anything that has not been gazetted." 80. You say here there was no judicial proof that the regulations had received the approval of the Minister, so that was why they failed? —Yes. The gazetted regulations were not approved until some months afterwards. 81. I want you to give us some proof?—l can prove that these particular regulations that were gazetted were not the regulations in force then, and these regulations were not gazetted until the -ilst July : they differ in two or three points. 82. Well, the fact remains that this case failed only from want of proof that the regulations had been prescribed by the Commandant and approved by the Minister? —Yes. Mr. Bishop's point was that he must have the gazetted oopy. 83. You do not say so here [referring to the petition]. If Mr. Allen had happened to be in Lyttelton that morning then the regulations would have been proved?—lt would depend entirely upon what "legal proof " means. According to Mr. Bishop it meant that it must be gazetted. The Chairman : I am afraid, Mr. Mackie, you have made a mistake there. 84. Hon. Mr. Smith.] Do you know that the ration issued was actually in excess of the ration prescribed by the doctor | —1 do not know that. 85. You speak of the windows being not opened : is it not a fact that after the boards were removed and the windows could open, that those in confinement did not open the windows? —I understand that is not so. 86. Mr. Veitch.] Your association is called the " National Peace Council "? —-Yes. 87. Do you oppose defence on principle, or merely compulsory military training?— Compulsory military training. 88. Do you oppose national defence? —No. 89. What alternative do you propose! —We are not here to show any alternative. 90. You are here to complain only?—We are certainly not here to suggest. 91. You have oome all this way to give evidence and you only complain and cannot suggest any remedy. How do you expect to have it remedied if you yourself cannot suggest an alternative? —Well, as I said, we do not exist for suggesting alternatives.

James Worhai.l examined. (No. 3.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your full name? —James Kirkwood WorraU. 2. Will you make your statement? —Of course, a statement has been read out, and I am here to give evidence in support of that statement regarding the illegalities at Ripa Island. The statement has been read out by Mr. Mackie, and I think I can substantiate the statement regarding the illegalities occurring on the island. Firstly, at the Court trial at Ripa Island conducted by Mr. T. A. B. Bailey, the first we knew of this case was that we were brought into the officers' kitchen. We had no notification of any Court being held at the island. I asked for an adjournment because we had not received sufficient notice. Mr. Bailey stated, "It is no use your getting a lawyer, boys, you are guilty; you have no case." I contend that an}' common criminal

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