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283 Say, through the fault of the brakes ?—Yes, we have had a number of runaways unattended by accidents. 284. How long have you been on the Auckland system?— Seven years and a half 285 Have you ever known of a car running down Wellesley Street corner up Queen Street? Yes. 286. Arc these runaways reported to the management?— Yes, when they are as serious as that, they are. A runaway down College Hill, say, would not be reported, but the state of the brakes would be. 287 Supposing a car ran away down Kyber Pass, would that be reported?—Oiily in regard to the state of the brakes. 288. It would be known to the motorman that the car was not under proper control?—He would know that thoroughly well. He would book up a car of that description as having a defective ratchet brake, or else that he could not hold his car with the brake. 289. But the management would understand that a runaway of that kind was due to the inefficiency of the brakes?— Yes. 290. And the public would know nothing about it? —Yes. 291 Mr Luke, ] Assuming that the Auckland tramways system was in the hands of the municipality, and not owned by a company, do you think there would be any need for this Bill? —I think so, from what I have heard of municipally controlled tramways. 1 think the men have grievances similar to Auckland. 1 think Auckland is the worst, but in municipalities there are grievances. 292 Considering that the method of the election and the functions are similar as between the General Government and the municipality, do you not think the municipality is just as fit and as competent to control a tramway undertaking in its locality as the General Government?— That would all depend. I should not think so, on account of the extraordinary attitude taken up by our municipal authorities when we execute a by-law passed by themselves. 293. In your opinion, did your municipality consider the public interest when it farmed out the right of running a tramway undertaking in Auckland?—l think unquestionably they made a mistake. 294. In your opinion, would the same influences that cause the Auckland public to part with their rights guide them in giving effect to conditions that may not be as fair as the conditions in a city where the tramway is municipally owned?— Probably the conditions where the tramways are municipally owned may be a little better than where there is a private company 295 Seeing that the tramways in three centres are controlled by the people and for the people, is it not your opinion that every safeguard that can be brought about should be taken in favour of the employee and the general public ?—While we offend in the matter of strap-hangers, I have been in Christchurch and Wellington, and think they are worse than Auckland in this respect. I do not think that is considering the interests of the public. 296. Do you think the public are better served by insisting on seats being provided for every passenger or by giving a reasonable amount of discretion to the management, so that the public may have cheap fares and a little disability in the matter of overcrowding?—l have not been favourably impressed by Wellington either in the number of passengers allowed to be carried or by the cheap fares. If the municipalities are going to carry such excessive loads as they carry in Wellington, I think the public should have a little protection. 297 You agree with the practice, so far as Wellington is concerned, of the motorman being absolutely detached from the passengers?— Yes, but I have seen a conductor giving a signal in an excessively loaded car when a woman was just in the act of stepping off the car; and in one instance a gentleman called out and drew the conductor's attention to the fact that a woman was getting off. In other instances several gentlemen called out and drew a lady back when getting off; otherwise I am of opinion that she would have been thrown very heavily on the roadway, and in all probability have sustained concussion of the brain. 298. How could you obviate that if the Government had the right of interference? I think the Government would fix upon a reasonable load that cars would be allowed to carry Ido not think it would be 50 per cent, overloaded. 299 Have you not seen similar disabilities on trains during race-times?-—Yes. 300. Have not the Government to frame regulations to provide for that?—l do not know about that. 301 Have you speed-indicators on the cars in Auckland?— No. 302. Do you think it necessary to have speed-indicators on the ordinary running cars? No. 303. You think that for educational purposes—to educate motormen up'to an appreciation of speed—it is all right?—l think men develop that knowledge themselves. I was on the' car during the whole of the time of the brake-test in Auckland, and it quite surprised me to see the extraordinary accuracy of the driver of that car When he was told to pick up a particular speed he picked it up. 304. You think there is something inherent in a motorman which enables him to tell the speed he is running at?— Yes. He is taught at first, but after that it comes as a natural gift. 305 Is it your opinion that this Bill is necessary in the interests of public safety and the protection of the employees?—l think so. 306. And is it in the interest of the municipality?— Yes. _ 307 Do you think it is necessary in the interests of good government and municipality undertakings?— Yes, I think so. 308. Mr Glover ] After the Commission sat in Auckland about two .years back, if the company had only carried out and acquiesced in the findings of the Commission, do you think there would have been any necessity for this Bill being introduced in this Parliament?—l do not think