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227 Do you know that at all the big centres the people, if they go to the races and other places, have to go in trucks? —1 have seen people going to races and so forth in trucks. 228 Do you not think that if political pressure is brought to bear on the Minister this clause may be the means of financially ruining the Auckland Tramways Company? —No, I do not think that for a minute. The Minister is only likely to insist upon a reasonable compliance with the provisions of the clause, as an intelligent man. 229 Do you not think the Minister has power under this clause to ruin the company?—l do not think so. 230. Have you noticed the effect of subclause (2) of clause 5, that the Governor may make regulations overriding an Order in Council?— That is not a matter lam interested in. My union was not asked to discuss that particular clause. 231 Coming to the Appeal Board, you say you want a representative man of the union and a representative of the employers. If an amicable settlement cannot be come to between these two, you want the Chairman to be appointed by the Minister?— Yes. 232 I suppose you know that this amicable selection is not very probable?—l would not say that. I hope it would be probable. 233. Supposing the Minister had the appointment, do you not think it is throwing the whole of the tramways in New Zealand into party politics? —I do not say so. 234. With regard to the car report-book, would you be surprised if I said it had been given in evidence that the principal reason for shifting to the single leaf from the book was in order that the management could get proper reports?—l should be surprised to hear that from the ihotormen. 235. You spoke about the records of men in your service : are you familiar with them? —Very familiar 236 Would you be astonished to learn that where we have had appeals here before the Tramways Committee the secretary of the union has stated that he was astonished at the records of the men —that it nonplussed him?— Yes, I should be very sorry to hear that. I have heard from the secretary of the Wellington union that he has been astonished at the records that have been put up against men without their knowledge. 237 Mr Young ] This Appeal Board might override the decisions of the employers, might it not? —Yes, and also the decisions of the employees. 238. Supposing the Appeal Board reinstated a motorman against the wishes of the employers, would you be in favour of a clause in the Bill that the Government should be responsible for all accidents the man might cause?—l do not know that I would pass an opinion on that. 239 Would not that be a fair thing if the Appeal Board reinstated a motorman?—l think that would be most unfair, because the company has a representative and the employees have a representative, and in the event of the Board reinstating a man I think it would be most unfair to suggest that the Government should be held responsible. 240. Y r ou think the employers should bear the brunt of it?—l do not think the Appeal Board would force upon the company or any municipality the services of a man who is totally unfitted for the position he was holding 241 Of course the Government would want control for the number of cars put on for the convenience of the public? —Yes. 242 Have you considered what the cost of putting on an extra car is ?—No, 1 have not gone into the question of cost. 243. Nor the sources from which the money is to come to put on extra cars?—No, 1 have not considered that question. 244. lion. Mr R McKenzie.] I understand you are president of the Auckland Tramways Employees' Union? —Yes. 245. How many men are there in your union?— Roughly speaking, 350. 246. If there was an incompetent motorman dismissed, and your union knew him to be incompetent, do you think they would be likely to use influence with the Government to reinstate that man? —Unquestionably no. There is not the slightest idea of the union wishing to force a bad employee on their employers. 247 You referred to the Kingsland accident: I think you said you knew the motorman intimately? —Very intimately, yes. 248. Do you know how long he had been training before he had the accident?—He was a conductor and a temporary inspector Then he went back to conducting for a very short time, and then trained and qualified for the position of motorman. I think he was about eighteen months or two years in the service. 249 You do not know how long he was working as a motorman I—Roughly1—Roughly speaking, I think he was a motorman for about six months. 250. It has been put on record before us that he was only on for a fortnight before the accident? —He had a fortnight's training, but I think he was on longer than that. 251 What training do you think a man should have before he gets a certificate?— With previous experience of conducting, I should s&y about two years. If he could prove he had previous experience I should certainly take that time off. 252. Do you think that a man applying for the Government certificate shoidd be compelled to prove that he had that necessary experience as a conductor and training as a motorman before he should be allowed to apply ?—I think so. 253. What is the number of conductors that you think should be trained every year—what percentage? —That would depend upon the service. The services are different. In Auckland I should say 10 per cent, would meet the requirements with the spare list they keep at present.