T. FANCOUBT.

3

G—s.

21. Mr. Quick.] You were a trustee when the litigation was going on ? —Yes. 22. The Church possesses two properties in the Wairarapa on exactly the same trust ? — Yes ; Fapawai and Kaikokirikiri. 23. Do you know anything about the intentions of Bishop Selwyn as regards those two ? —They are spoken of as colleges in the grants. 24. By the scheme it would appear the trustees are permitted to give scholarships to the West Coast Maoris for education ?—The scheme permits our giving scholarships to Maori children on the West Coast for their education at these schools in the Wairarapa. It does not permit us to take any of the capital money of Porirua, or any income, for the upkeep of Papawai school beyond a fair amount to be charged for the boys who go there. The General Synod gave direction to the trustees that they were to spend the income of the Porirua College in giving exhibitions to children from the West Coast to any J Maori Church of England school of which they should approve ; and, on the strength of that, we obtained this scheme to establish a school in the Wairarapa. That school has been established for some little time ?—Fifteen or eighteen months. We did not want to get very many boys to begin with. I had charge of it, and I did not want to beg and pray the Maoris to come in, but rather to consider it a privilege. I limited the number to, I think, twelve from the Wairararpa, reserving, perhaps, room for five or six from the West Coast. At present there are only some seven or nine, two of whom come from the West Coast and are being supported from the Porirua estate. 26. Mr. Wardell.] Do you know what family they belong to I—No1 —No ; I have been away for some time and have no certain information. 27. The Chairman.'] European children do not go to this Wairarapa school ?—No. They would not be admitted. It is not part of our scheme. There was a strong feeling in the General Synod which was against my feeling. My feeling was that the trust was for both races, but Archdeacon Williams took a different view. It ended in the General Synod adopting his view, and saying that the trustees should for the present restrict the school to Maoris —that the lands had come from them. 28. Mr. Quick.] The Clareville College would reject any application from Europeans ? —lt would give preference to Maoris. If there was more room for scholars, and funds to support them, English children would not be rejected. 29. Mr. Wardell.] The view of the Synod is to ignore as far as possible and set aside the trust created by the grant, and fall back upon the trust created by the Maori cession ? —The Maoris did not mention anybody ; they gave it broadly ; that is the General Synod's view. The term " youth "at the time the Crown grant was issued had never been interpreted to include both sexes. 30. The Chairman.] I do not see anything in this scheme that would justify you in using money for European children ?—Well, I was defeated. Ido not feel that the scheme is carrying out the trust. 31. Mr. Quick.] According to your interpretation of the intention, you think it is a more apt interpretation to have amalgamation between Clareville and Porirua than between the primary school belonging to the missionary society and Porirua % —Yes ; I am satisfied with the scheme ; the two amalgamated give a hope for a fine future. As time goes on we shall get a Maori college like Te Aute. 52. Mr. Wardell.] Is Clareville a Native district \ —lt is a centre. 33. Of what ? —Of the Wairarapa ; we have Kaikokirikiri at Masterton, and Papawai at Greytown. If we had put the school at Papawai, the other place would not have come near it. 34. Would there not be enough revenue from the Wairarapa estates to support a school for the Wairarapa, and estate enough at Porirua and Otaki to support one for Otaki for the West Coast ?— Not enough to support a college. My own feeling about Otaki is that it stands altogether on another plane to these trusts. They are not to be treated together. 35. But if they could be amalgamated ?—Then it is a question whether you would not weaken the Wairarapa institution, which for some years would hardly be able to develop. One big college for the whole place is more desirable than two small ones. We have found it to be so in connection with our own colleges, and that is the reason the Bishop has always refrained from establishing a theological college here. 36. But for the education of the children of poor parents distributed throughout the country, do you contend it is in the interests of the country that there should be one large institution I—We1 —We do not tie ourselves down to poor people ; we want to get hold of the better class. 37. Mr. Quick.] Do you know of any difficulties that arise from carrying on a day-school close to a centre of population of Maoris ? —You cannot help carrying on a day-school close by ; but it is not desirable to have a boarding-school in the midst of a Native population, because if a boy is discontented he has only to run home for shelter, and they are too close to Native habits to be trained out of them. Otaki would be a very bad place to put a large school. 38. Mr. Wardell.] Bishop Hadfield, in his evidence before a Parliamentary Committee, does not appear to think there is any disadvantage in such proximity ? —He had unusual power with the Natives. Mr. Knell told me of the difficulty I mention. And there is a great difficulty in carrying out industrial training, as they do not like being made to work. 39. The Chairman.] We have not heard any reference to something having been actually done in the way of establishing a school before the Crown grant at Porirua ? —There is something about a Mr. Servantas having been there. I have no knowledge of it except from Bishop Hadfield. I suppose they did attempt a day-school there. Bishop Hadfield says that Bishop Selwyn sent down money. He knows for certain he had £200 that passed through his hands from the Bishop to expend on this land to put it in order ;he thinks probably he had more. There is another thing that shows that Bishop Selwyn intended it to be a real live thing. I heard it from Mr. F. Bradey that a large amount of timber was cut at Paekakariki at the time the soldiers were there and floated down and brought into Porirua Harbour for the purpose of building a college, but there was no money to build. A good deal of the timber was carried away by the people, and what was left served to put up a farmhouse. Whether a school was built out of that timber I cannot tell.