G.—s.

2

[T. FANCOURT.

8. The Chairman.] The modern notion of industrial schools did not exist in 1850 ?—No. The Bishop goes on to explain that the Maoris were leading an idle, dissolute, and useless life, and there were a lot of young English fellows who considered themselves superior to the Maoris, and who delighted in idling about, and he uses the expression " the best way to humble them is by work." He evidently had in view more than the supporting of the college by their labour —he had in view also the instilling more satisfactory habits into the Maoris. He says, " I have ordained two country settlers, two farmers, one printer, one weaver, one spinner " ; and he elsewhere explains how the printer was able to support himself by working five hours at printing and five hours at the college. "I am not inventing a new plan, but only endeavouring to give full effect to a course of events which I found already in progress. The only difference between us and the old universities in this respect will be that we shall at once place all our poor scholars in some working department instead of giving them exhibitions in money or commons before their ability or industry has been sufficiently proved." My first knowledge of the site was when riding round the Porirua Harbour with Bishop Abraham, when the latter pointed out the site, and said, " There is a grand site for a theological college." This was in 1865. 9. Mr. Quick.] You contend, and it has always been the idea, that it was intended not as a mere primary school, but as a school for higher education ?—Yes ; that is the reason why the trustees have always declined to make any attempt to establish a day-school there, as not being within the terms of the trust. The scheme in view was to raise money at Home for this college, and he desired to get hold of the Wellington endowment, which was in the hands of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel at Home (£4,000), and he thought he might get that to put into the college ; but the trustees evidently would not lend it. 10. Did the Bishop ever go so far at to appoint a principal for the college ? —He offered it to Mr. Hadfield (afterwards Bishop). The college had at that time no existence, except in intention on paper. Mr. Hadfield had a serious illness, and on his recovery it was thought he would not be fit for missionary work, and the Bishop asked him whether he would take charge of the college he was going to start at Porirua. In 1849, in another letter, the Bishop says, "It would be too much to expect th&t you should be able to resume the active habits of a missionary for which your strength was never adequate, but I think that I know your mind sufficiently to feel assured that you will dedicate your returning health to such employment as is nearest to the missionary work. I would point to the Porirua College as a post in which your influence would be brought to bear on all those in whom you are most interested without much bodily fatigue. If you will consent to find head and heart for the new college, I will do my best to provide you with arms and legs." 11. Mr. Wardell.] Was that prior to his appointment to the Otaki school? —No; he had been missionary at Waikanae and Otaki from 1839, and during his illness Mr. S. Williams (now Archdeacon) went there for the time being The Bishop names Te Rauparaha, Matene te Whiwhi, and Tamihana Rauparaha as having been with him ; the latter had been educated at St. John's I want to press home the fact that this was a gift by the Maoris for a collegf, in which both races were to be educated. It was not localised down in any way ; it was not given to the Nagtiraukawas ;no mention is made of the Ngatitoas; and, as Bishop Hadfield says, there were never more than 125 of the latter at Porirua, and it was never intended for that tribe alone. It was made in the widest sense a general trust for Her Majesty's subjects, and some even outside. It was a totally different trust to the Otaki ones. 12. Can you suggest any explanation of the fact that the Bishop accepted the trust in a form so different, as you suggest ? —The only difference I notice is that the draftsman inserted the word " school " instead of college. 13. In every one of these grants to other bodies precisely the same words are used ? —lt was Sir George Grey's fad, really. 14. If the trust was so different from the trusts in the other cases, would not the attention of the Bishop have been called to the terms of the grant, and could he have restricted the trust unless it was embodied in the grant under which he received the land ?—I think the general terms of the trust are the same ; the only addition seems to be the reference to the Melanesian mission, and I have no doubt he would assent to the tacking-on of that. 15. Mr. Quick.] Do you remember anything about the origin of the missionary society endowments at Otaki ? —No, Ido not. That is a private matter and does not belong to the Church of New Zealand at all. It was outside our system entirely. It has nothing whatever to do with Porirua ;it is not associated with it in the slightest degree. 16. Mr. Wardell.] Do you justify the payment of £800 to Otaki from the Porirua trust ? —No ; 6ut I presume the object of the trustees was to do something with the trust. If they had gone on doing something, there would probably have been nothing heard about it; but they were told by a high legal authority that they were doing an illegal thing, and they then kept the money strictly within the trust. Ido not justify the payment, but it was merely done for the sake of doing something. 17. Mr. Quick.] Has the institution at Otaki always been a day-school ? —lt was a boardingschool at one time, when Mr. Desbois and when Mr. Knell were in charge ; they were both in holy orders. They were under Archdeacon Hadfield, and were carrying on the missionary school under him. The Church never had an account presented to it nor the General Synod. 18. It was a primary school, beginning with the very elements of education^? —Yes ; they take up to the Fifth or Sixth Standard now. 19. It was a different scheme to that intended by the chiefs ? —Yes ; it was a school outside the control of the Church ; it was in no way a New Zealand Church institution. P^ ' 20. Mr. Wardell.] They are not disposed to hand it over to-day % —I do not want it; I think it would be a breach of the Porirua trust to put them together