H.-26

7

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Wednesday, 11th November, 1903. John Moss sworn. I desire to subpoena a number of witnesses. I desire that the Chairman of the Charitable Aid Board give evidence. George Joseph Garland sworn, and examined by Mr. Moss. lam the Chairman of the Charitable Aid Board. There was no other evidence on which the Board acted as regards your dismissal except what you have received a copy of. I was not the Chairman of the Board at that time. Mr. Bruce was. I am not aware that any request for evidence was refused by the Board. Some evidence was sent to you by the Board. I believe it was a correct copy. I voted for your dismissal on the evidence furnished to the Board. I remember the commencement of the inquiry. The reason why you were not allowed to crossexamine witnesses before the Board was to save you from odium. The Press were excluded from the inquiry for the same reason. I was not in favour of the Press being excluded, because whatever came out should have been known to the public. I was not in favour of either you or Mrs. Moss being present. I considered the evidence sufficient to dismiss you, with your wife. I read the evidence. There were contradictory statements in the evidence. I was not aware of any bias on the part of witnesses. The doctor was called (King). I cannot recollect what the doctor's evidence was. I was not aware that any serious complaints against you and your wife were omitted. The whole of the evidence was handed to the Press. You sent in an answer to the charges. I considered the statements of the witnesses were to be relied upon. I knew Miss Mark for a short period. I had known- you and Mrs. Moss about six months when the inquiry was held. I do not remember Mrs. Plaice at the Home, or Miss Mark mentioning her case. Miss Mark stated that the patients were crawling with vermin. At that time there were about 187 patients in the Home. I did not understand that the whole of the patients were crawling with vermin. Other witnesses were called on that point, and they confirmed it in some cases. I cannot remember whether the doctor confirmed it. Ido not remember Miss Graham. I believed the evidence given before the inquiry to be true. Ido not know why Miss Graham was not called before the Board. Ido not think she ought to have been called on a trivial statement. There were several serious charges against you —-(1) that of vermin abounding in the Home, (2) that of injury to Kinghorn, (3) the placing of Mrs. Gertrude Campbell in the refractory-ward from the 13th to the 28th November, 1900. I was told that you had been eleven years in the institution. If these three charges were proved, I should consider them sufficient to warrant your discharge. I remember Mrs. Helen Campbell in the institution. Miss Mark made a statement about that woman. I noticed no discrepancies in her evidence on that matter. Miss Mark said Mr. and Mrs. Moss hauled Mrs. Helen Campbell down to the refractory-ward. I noticed that two witnesses said you were dragging her, and two said you were not dragging her. I cannot be certain at this lapse of time. I was not aware that Miss Mark was not in the institution. I was wishful that the matter of the examination should be made public, but at, the same time I thought that you and Mrs. Moss should be discharged. The Board was asked by a deputation for a public inquiry. I offered no objection to the deputation seeing the evidence on which you were dismissed. I was in favour of your having a public inquiry so long as you paid for it. I do not remember the Women's Political League urging an inquiry, or offering to pay for it, or the Trades and Labour Council either. That would be about August, 1902. I think the management of the Home has improved since your discharge. I do not remember any complaints from Dr. MacGregor or the Governor, or Mrs. Grace Neill, but I do remember reports of a general nature of the management of the Horne —reports in the street casually made —and also from Purvis. He said you were a brute. I took that statement with a grain of salt. I saw Mrs. Grace Neill's report. I sympathised with any efforts to minimise the evils of drink. You were right in attempting to put down drunkenness in the Home. Ido not know if you had support from the Board in that respect. Ido not think that had anything to do with the bias of the witnesses. I was not aware that many of the witnesses had been in conflict with you about their drunkenness. • Some of the inmates of the Home had been reported for drunkenness since you left. The Manager has not been reported for drunkenness, or for being absent at races, or gambling. I never had any report of your being drunk at the Home. 1 have inferred from what you have said that you do not believe that Jesus Christ is a Divine person. In a certain degree your religious convictions unfitted you to occupy your position at the Costlev Home. You had men there of all sects, and they would naturally feel some antipathy to a person who thought differently from themselves. That did not enter into the question at all. I do not think that neutrality is desirable under those circumstances. I may have stated that Mr. Moss owing to his religious beliefs, was unsuitable for the position of Manager. I cannot say what your religious belief is. I only know my impressions about it. I have no recollection of any complaints being made to the Board about your religious views. Your manner to the Board and to me was always courteous, but tinged with autocracy. Nothing was wron» about your accounts. You never told me a lie that lam aware of. I found you were incompetent when I came to look into the condition of the Home after you left. I consider your staff was insufficient in number Generally, I should think they were efficient personally. The staff has been increased since you