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136. You have sworn that you never saw that before ? —Yes. 137. Did you see anything in connection with that in manuscript before it appeared in the New Zealand Times ? —I must also decline to answer that question. 138. You see this document; it is typewritten. [Document handed to witness.] Did you ever see that, either in manuscript or typewriting, at any time prior to the publication of these articles in the Times ? —I must make the same reply. 139. You have sworn that you never saw that document before? —Yes. 140. This is the first time that you have seen it ? —Yes. 141. Have a look at this, please. [Bill handed to witness.] On your oath you just now said that you had never seen it before ? —Yes. 142. Have you seen it in manuscript before, or in typewriting?—l can only make a similar reply. 143. You decline to answer the question?— Yes. 144. Hon. Mr. Guinness.] Have you seen in the possession of Mr. Barr any manuscript or notes containing the information upon which those articles are based ? —I regret that I cannot answer that question. 145. May we assume that you did?— You may be justified in assuming anything. 146. Did you hand any information to Mr. Kelly upon which he wrote those articles ?—I regret that I cannot answer that. 147. Sir W. B. Russell.] Prior to the publication of the first article, on the sth September, in the New Zealand Times on the subject of education, did you discuss the provisions of the Secondary Schools Bill with any member of Parliament ? —I can conscientiously say that I did not. 148. Did you, prior to the publication of that article, discuss the provisions of the Secondary Schools Bill or the Regulations for the Inspection and Examination of Schools with any officer of the Education Department ? —I did not. 149. Hon. Sir W. J. Steward.] You say you have not seen either the printed copies of the documents nor the typewritten copies marked "Confidential," which have been shown you—you had not seen them prior to the publication of the article ?—That is correct. John Mackay, Government Printer, examined on oath. (No. 5.) 150. The Chairman.] Will you inform the Committee, Mr. Mackay, how many copies of the Secondary Schools Bill and of the .Regulations for the Inspection and Examination of Schools were printed, and to whom they were delivered?—Of the Bill, fifty copies were printed, and they were delivered to Mr. Redward, of the Crown Law Office. Of the regulations, fifty-two copies were printed. They were delivered to the Education Department. The receipt is signed by Mr. Wilkes. 151. And the third document—that with regard to the training-colleges for teachers? —That was only typewritten; it was not printed. 152. Was there any possibility of any further copies of that Bill or of those regulations being printed than the fifty and the fifty-two ? —No. 153. Has the type been distributed ?—No ; it is locked up. 154. Then, you can swear that no copies beyond those which were sent to the Law Office in the one case, and the Education Department in the other, could go out of the Government Printing Office ?—I do not think it is possible. We have confidential matter of that description going through the office every week. 155. Would it be possible for a copy to be abstracted during the course of printing, or at any other time?—l do not think it could be. The papers are marked "Confidential," and we treat them as such. 156. Are you of opinion, then, that any information in connection with these documents could not have been got from the Printing Office? —It could not, I think. 157. Hon. Sir W. J. Steward.] How about the proofs? When the proofs are pulled, in the first instance, and the revises, what is done with them ?—They are returned to the Department, excepting the last proof. I have the last proof, in this ease, here. 158. You return them to the Department, sending the printed matter over? —Yes. 159. Was that done in this case ?—Yes. 160. Then, with the exception of the final proof that you have before you, there was no proof or revise about the office of which any person could obtain possession ?—None. 161. Mr. Massey.] Have you any particularly reliable men to whom the printing of documents marked " Confidential " is intrusted ?—Yes, I have. George Hogben, Secretary for Education and Inspector-General of Schools, examined on oath. (No. 6.) 162. The Chairman.] You, Mr. Hogben, as Secretary of the Department, have had printed the Secondary Schools Bill and the Regulations for the Inspection and Examination of Schools?— Our Department did not have anything to do directly with the printing of the Secondary Schools Bill. We received that from the Crown Law Office. 163. But the Eegulations for the Inspection and Examination of Schools were returned from the Printing Office to your office. 164. Did you get fifty-two copies of the Regulations for the Inspection and Examination of Schools ?—I think there were only fifty. I do not know the exact number. Ido not receive these papers personally. Sir Edward Gibbes receives them. 165. Right Hon. R. J. Seddon.] Mr. Wilkes signed for the regulations ?—Yes. Mr. Wilkes is the Senior Despatch Clerk, and he was appointed to make up the sets and to bring the surplus